The Watch - The ‘True Detective’ Discourse, the ‘Monsieur Spade’ Finale, and ‘Madame Web’

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the news that ‘True Detective’ has been renewed for Season 5 with Issa Lopez at the helm, and some of show creator Nic Pizzolatto’s comments about the latest season (1:00). Then, they talk about two Apple shows they have been watching, ‘Masters of the Air’ and ‘The New Look’ (23:55), and how they define the company’s take on historical fiction. They then discuss the finale of ‘Monsieur Spade’ (41:11), before talking about their experience seeing ‘Madame Web’ (56:03). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is why we can't detect true things. It's Andy Greenwald. That was a nice one. It's wellness week, baby. And you're celebrating in a weird way. Nothing makes me feel more well than talking about true detective discourse. And so Andy and I have summoned Kaya. That Kaya was down to do this.

I mean, she was like, let's rock and roll down at the studio. So here we are with a watch episode about the sort of conversation that has sprung out after True Detective Night Country. We're also going to talk about Madam Webb, which is something that Andy and I went and saw together the other day. And we're going to talk about Monsieur Spade, the last few episodes, including the finale, are along the way to farewell to that beloved show. Also, we've been watching some other stuff. We're going to hit some other things. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I have.

But first. But first, we have to talk. We have to talk about you. Okay, yeah. So, Kaya and I got here today, and you had a little pep in your step. You got a little... Can we just actually, for full transparency? You said...

Oh, here we... This is... Everyone listened to how this is going to go. At 945, you were like, hey, I'm going to be there soon. It was 10.06. It was feeling frisky. 1006. And I was like, well, my partner has summoned me, and I want to be there for him.

Second use of summoned in the pod. I rushed out the door. I barely had time to say goodbye to my wife. And I drove down. Do you think she's going to be mad? And then I was like, here? No, you weren't. Well, I arrived.

As I was pulling into the parking lot, you were like, I'm on a call. It was five minutes more then. I thought, you made it seem, first of all, you made it seem like you had been here for hours. Second, first thing I said when I saw you was, you look wonderful in earth tones. I know. I love you in color. And you asked me what my color story is basically, right? Or my season.

What is that? Kai, do you know about that? Seasons? I can't get away from it on TikTok. Yeah, everybody's like, I'm going to get my color analysis done. I'm a clear winter. Clear winter. Like, clearly I am winter or like?

I don't know. Then there's like bright winter and then there's like soft spring. I think my, I think my like features color story is like New York asphalt with snow and slush on it. I think that's my color story. I'm depressive autumn. Yeah. No, you still have some burnished gold. You got some.

Yeah, but like there's just like the last days of the harvest. You know? Wait, Kyle. What are you? Oh, I don't know. I haven't analyzed. You're not a winter. Okay.

I'm just speaking for winters everywhere. Maybe like a fall. I don't know. Early fall. Early fall. He said staring at Chris. Like an Indian summer situation. But yeah, here we are.

Gruel, how are you? You're stalling. I'm great. Many people who have been listening to this podcast for a long time are aware that I have a relationship with nicotine that goes back to 2003, much like Madam Webb does. That's when Madam Webb is set. Yeah. Do you think that was the inciting event?

No, I think it goes back. It's pre-9-11. I started smoking, like, in Boston. Yeah, because if, I'm sure many of our listeners have seen Madam Webb, if they had brought in the D story of you lighting up your first SIG, and then you were responsible for igniting the fireworks factory at the end of that movie, okay, go on. So you had your first, right, but you really, it really became like a two-hander,

like a classic stage play. Well, I mean, New York City was just a beautiful place to live at that time. And, like, you were able to smoke indoors. You were able to smoke anywhere you wanted pretty much. So I have had a long-term relationship with cigarettes. And then since I moved to Los Angeles, as I've made me mention before, I thought when I moved out here, I would have a smoking buddy and David Jacoby. The day I showed up, David Jacoby went, oh, I quit.

This is classic David Chicokeye. So because I didn't want to feel like a social outcast, I started using nicotine replacement therapies. Wait, so you were still just. just grabbing darts when you moved here? I was starting to use gum before I moved here with the anticipation that nobody smokes an hour. You were ratcheting it down. And then I...

By the way, which is funny because no one smokes more than actors. Oh, I know. I know. So... But I was like, okay, like I got to switch to gum. Gum gave me some jaw problems after a while. Switched to, like, lozenges. They were... Went to the patch, which we both know has ups and downs.

Yeah. where I've been happy for a really long time. But it felt like I was like, you know, I was getting a lot of advertising and Instagram for this, albeit subconscious. I felt like it's out there. The Zim Pouch Revolution, dude seemed like they're getting a lot done on Zin Pouches.

You know, like guys are taking Zim Pouches before they work out. They take Zim Pouches before they start day trading. They take Zim Pouches before they start podcasting and stuff. Can I describe what I think this is? Yeah. It's from the way that you've talked about it. And I've never seen one. And this is not advertising for Zin.

I'm just talking about my personal state. No, you talk about this. What I'm picturing is a small bag full of needles, each of which is dipped in nicotine. Well, this is all leading up to the fact that this is a new segment on our podcast. I was thinking about doing the true detective segment while I had a Zinn in. This is a new section for a podcast that we're going to take some, we can workshop. I was thinking this should be called It's a Zin, because that was a show that we really liked a few years ago.

Remember on HBO? Oh, it's a Sin. Yeah. Was that? Yeah. Okay. We could, we could, we could, we could, we could, we could, we could, we could, we could, we could, we could. Yeah, drop, or drops of Zin.

Yes. Yeah. You know, uh, the, the zone of Zintrists. Zin detective, I think would be, would be, would be, what are we doing, Casey? But the Zin eaters. Oh, yeah. That's good. That's good.

Um, okay. Any, any, all right. So, I don't know if I want to do it. Anyway, so like the other day. You show it to me? Yeah. So he has some. I'm going to put this on Instagram.

You see this smiling guy. It just sits there and then you just put it up in here. It just sits there and just delivers a higher dose than you're used to. It's not even that high dose. It says it has nicotine salt, which I don't know what that is. And the other night I had one in. Kai is laughing so hard. And I started like 19 different text threads in 45 seconds.

Did I get any of those? Yeah, some. Yeah. And my buddy, our buddy, Craig Horleback, who produces the rewatchables and we work with it. I mentioned to him that I had made the move. And he sent me a video from Twitter. of a skeleton being hit by what looks like a missile. And the caption is,

me after a six milligram Zin and three light beers. And you, and this is what, this is who Chris is. This, I think the CRHedge will appreciate this. When he sent that to you, you were like, now you have my attention. Well, I was just like, this seems like an experience I'd like to have. What's this guy's backstory? What's his trauma?

So, okay, so full disclosure, you are not on this now. Uh-huh. No, no, I'm not. But we can have special segments going forward in the podcast that are zones of Zintrists. I like that one best. So we're going to revisit. As long as you call it that, and I don't. Yeah.

Oh, do you think half of you can say that? I haven't seen the movie. Is it fun? But yeah, I was thinking about making that move. You know, now that we have all that Zin talk out of the way, now we've had a nice glass of Zin, you wanted to talk about the true detective discourse. And that surprised you. Well, I just think sometimes, like, you seem like more.

like this sort of online toxicity is not something that needs more oxygen. I think it's been pretty sad. You know, this is obviously, regardless of the fact that you and I had like some issues with the way the show wrapped up, pretty triumphant commercial success for Issa Lopez and for Max and everything, we just got news as we were sitting down that there is going to be another season of True Detective. Yes. Helmed by Issa Lopez.

So that's definitely like. And helmed like written. directed by. Yes. So clearly they have like a partner they really believe in and they, they really are into the places that she is taking this show. Nick Pizzolado was not. So early on in the season's run, Nick Pizzolato on Instagram started kind of chirping about like, this is stupid. I wouldn't have done this. I think he was refuting the idea that Matthew McConaughey was going to show up in the show. It's just kind of like taking shots. He has accredited an executive producer as you'd expect since he created the show. And he created the show.

and sort of ran the first three seasons. But in general, like, was not a exactly benevolent partner in this. As the season went on, I didn't really follow very much. But during the finale or after the finale, which granted, was divisive. Yes, we didn't like it very much. Pissolato was spending the evening, more or less, reposting screeds about how much it sucked by other people. Yes, other people's screeds were being brought. on his Instagram stories.

Yes. And then I think yesterday he put up a post, it was a picture of himself and said that he was putting this post up as a clearinghouse, this is not a quote, but a clearinghouse for debate and criticism of the show. And then this is a quote. I'd say stay civil,

but of course civility has no place when criticism of television show indicates some form of Hitlerian evil that must be stamped out. So roll on tide, satire, is welcome and do try to have a nice day. Wow. Callie Reese has responded by being like,

that's tough beat, shitting on the new wave. I would note that while Nick is obviously feels possessive over true detective, which is something that he created and wrote, he also does rewrite, or, you know, he works in IP himself and

is currently working on a Magnificent Seven television show, which is based on the movie Magnificent Seven that he wrote. which is based on John Sturgis' Magnificent Seven, which is based on Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samara. Have you looked at Kurosawa's IG stories recently? He is pissed. Pissed.

Yeah, he's like roll-tide. He's a Michigan man, I think. He's like War Dam Eagle. Kurosawa's really into Auburn. I think he says handled this really gracefully. Let me say that. Wildly so. A few weeks ago gave a very thoughtful, generous quote

saying that she's a big fan of the show or else she wouldn't have engaged in it on any level. If there are references, they are, you know, and her in mind tributes, the spirit of the show that Nick made and the template that he laid. I think this is a tough one. I think that broadly it all sucks. I don't mean the TV show.

I just mean that the way that we reductively end up talking about TV shows the way that that conversation ends up getting covered and aggregated and diluted down and down and down until everything is just a miserable binary that has nothing to do with the actual artistic intention of anybody involved. I think the Pizzolato piece of it, you know, I'm, I think it's pretty classless. I think that every single person who's creative in the world, let alone in this town, feels very, very strongly about their work. It feels very, very protective. And if we're going to be very honest, feels very competitive.

Like, no one is meaner about other people's shit than people who are in the same industry. That's true in any industry. But, you know, I think particularly in this case... I'm that way about Ben Sulek. I didn't know we were going to go there. I think he's getting checks from every episode of this they make. Now, I'm not saying that those are like hush money. They don't take away his...

He does seem to be veering close to some, like, Bill Maher pronouncements about what you can and cannot say anymore. Yes. I believe that he is thrown around the phrase fake news a couple of times. He can say whatever he wants, no one's stopping him. But he could also have his name taken off of it. He could also refuse the, I don't know, $50,000 per episode fee he gets. That's a guess. That's a guess.

I've no idea. It could be more, it could be less. But it's the same reason that Woody Harrelson and Matthew McCona had got by. I mean, they are EPs on the show True Detective. So as long as this franchise keeps running, they're getting passive income from it. Again, doesn't take it. away their right to say whatever they want, but it just seems a little churlish. You can make a bigger stand by just walking away from the whole thing if you're so inclined to do so. I found that this

wouldn't to be particularly tough in ways that I hadn't felt since actually being a day-to-day in the trenches critic, which was something that I was getting a little sick of in terms of the online expression of it in 2015. And what I mean by that is I know that I'm, I don't, you said something about giving things more oxygen. I think that was a good point. Because I think that the majority of people, hopefully, who listen to this are of good faith and can understand that more than one thing can be true at the same time. But I was largely bummed out that it's increasingly difficult to be critical, hopefully, in a fair-minded and generously spirited way, about something, while also believing in the larger project, also believing in the artistic capabilities and

potential of people like Issa Lopez, while also believing that telling stories from a female or indigenous perspective in this case is enormously valuable. All of these things can be true. And what I hope we can do on podcasts like this one is try and articulate that, you know. Again, I don't want to sound aggrieved because no one's shutting us down either. Nobody is putting words in our mouth. But I was bummed about, I understand. I don't live, I'm not coming down from my mountain to look at the internet and being like,

wow, such rough talk. Like, I understand that all things become this binary now. But I'm thrilled that Issa Lopez got to make a true detective. It's exciting she'll get to make another one. I didn't think this show worked for me. I think there were specific things that caused it not to work. You don't have to reiterate. I read your comments on Nick's Instagram post.

Thank you. Thank you. But now you know my Finsta. I have a couple of takes on this. One is I have been trying to unpack what makes this show such a lightning ride. Yes, great. So it's been this way since 10 years ago. I think a lot of that stuff in the beginning had to do with the pseudo-philosophical,

hyper-masculine bar room nihilism of Russ Cole and the character. I think it also, not unlike the podcast serial, not unlike several other, not unlike, I guess, lost to some extent, but there were a few kind of major pop cultural events over the last 20 years that kind of created a fandom that left. Earth and it left the sort of the station that was the show or the podcast or the movie or whatever and the discourse around that show just became almost completely detached from what was actually on screen. Now that first season of True Detective I was I was in on that

discussion pretty hard like I thought that there were secrets in in the stars that you could like unpack and if you just stared at them hard enough and to some extent I got lost in that again in three because I thought three was so especially the opening episodes of three and some of the Lovecraft stuff that was coming back in. I was like, this is so cool because there's basically like a whole other experience of this show that you can have that is about reading about stuff that the show is lightly referencing, right? Yeah. For his, you know, I've been a long time critic of Nick Pitts-a-lot of work for the screen and some of his work on Instagram. But there is no question that he is well-read, seen a lot of movies, has very

strong opinions about these things, and integrates them into his work in a way that the best people do. My point is more that once stuff really leaves the text, like, once the conversation about the text, like kind of leaves the text, it's not really a conversation about the show anymore. That's true. And so for this discourse or whatever you want to say about it to like kind of replicate itself in this particular way is like really kind of predictable but also sad because it's about whether or not Issa Lopez is like

quote unquote the right to tell this story which I think is obviously animating a lot of the hostility towards it. I also think that like frankly like this seems like it was maybe bound to happen you know like it's not Batman like it's not something that like dozens of

people have tried their hand on so I kind of feel bad for Issa Lopez because she just made the show that she wanted to and did the best job of it she could. And this is now kind of become... I'm glad that they announced season five because that at least changes the story a little bit. It's kind of like turns a page.

And the ratings were very good. You know, a lot of this, I think we should always be careful when we have conversations like this. I would imagine the vast majority of the millions of people who watched True Detective Night Country and liked it or didn't like it.

We're like, oh, it's an interesting show. Yeah. They are not arguing over whether Sathulu should have been a major character or if the male scientists were given short shrift for their character development and whether that's a justifiable thing or not. I don't think that's the conversation. I think there's something, the reason I brought that kind of whole thing up about the idea of

the show kind of having an extra textual reading or maybe like a secondary kind of existence in both online and like people talking about it is that I think that's what creates the high expectations and the severe levels of anger about like the way things. wind up. Because, like, I know plenty of people who really hated the way season one ended because it didn't quite live up to the ethos of the rest of the season. You know, Rust's kind of vision of the world is refuted when he's just like, it turns out if I look at the sky, like, I'm pretty happy about being alive and everything.

Did he look at that same Instagram influencer you did about getting the sun every morning? Yeah, Huberman. And, you know, I think actually in some ways the end of the third season is perhaps the most true to the worldview of Nick Pizzolato, which is this guy, you know, disappearing and back into the jungle of his own memory. The other thing I was going to say is that this is kind of what happens

when every single person is a celebrity. I did not know who Stephen Botchko was when I was a kid. You know? You only knew who Stephen J. Cannell was because of that jaunty thing at the end when he flipped the paper out of his typewriter. Like he was not, I didn't know, like, I barely knew who Damon was when Lost was on.

Yeah. You know, and the sort of public-facing constantly online version of creators, I think, does a lot to promote work that ordinarily might have been ignored, but also has consequences where it gets, it's not about the show anymore. It's about whether you like this guy or you like this person. And their politics and their point of view. Right. Right. And then it becomes like, well, we're not really talking about a TV show that had like a kind of clunky ending, but it was really cool to me. You know what I mean?

Like for the most part. Yes, I think that's a great point. I also think our hyperactive way of covering everything to death is obscuring the fact that, A, it's really hard to make things. B, no things are perfect. B, C, most things are barely good. Yeah. You know, and your mileage may vary on what good means to you, what you're looking for out of certain shows, what collection of pros outweigh, what collection of cons. But that's something that I think we get away from in, I mean, we were.

spoiled over the last decade in terms of a lot of the programs that we love, but also with the heightened focus on an event series, a six-episode event, an eight-episode experience, that's an enormous amount of pressure for things, as we've been saying continually, are still broadly made in the same way TV's been made for decades, which is by the seat of its fucking pants. So that's obscured things, too, and it's made it harder for us to, and harder, I think, for audience members, and then we have our challenges with it too with something like Night Country, which you and I think were both, to varying degrees,

very bullish on and excited by for the first three episodes, and then again, slightly different paces, more disappointed by the back half of it. I do want to be careful of falling down the rabbit hole into the larger thing, which is just my war on the internet. Because that's just lost. We've lost that battle. You definitely have lost it.

But I lost a long time ago. I'm winning it. all I get from the internet is health tips and you have you know you have multiple message boards devoted to your heroism that's not what I meant that's true also um you know I did see you know we have a we have a Facebook group that that supposedly you know engages with our podcast or just talks about supposedly is the wrong word they do engage the podcast but they're also just fans of culture maybe to the same degree that we are

and I saw I I look at it less and less because it the debate is the internet, you know? And, like, I saw one nice person be like, I feel like those scientists were not well-sketched out as characters. And then a lot of the responses were essentially, you think men weren't well-drawn characters in a show about women, cry more. And I was like, why not both? Sure.

That would be ideal. I understand why people would be knee-jerk reflexive, because if you don't have many shows. I don't think that that's why, I don't think that is, if you felt that, I don't think that was Issa Lopez's intent was to be like cry more. I intentionally made these scientists ciphers. Exactly.

And do we have you know, I don't know, ballpark like one to two years to make up for the disparity in storytelling for a couple hundred years? Yeah, I feel like we'll get it done. Then it's back to guys stuff. We'll pod through it. Yeah, we'll pod through it. No, AI versions of our frozen brains. Jokes, jokes aside.

Kyah retired somewhere in Montecito. The goal isn't scorekeeping. The goal is making the best things possible. And I deeply believe telling the best stories possible is telling the most stories possible and the most diverse and surprising and interesting ways. But all of this comes back to the point, which is I don't like the larger noise. I think that True Detective Night Country was an interesting exercise that I think might lead to something better in a future season. A lot of it was good. Some of it was missed. Some of it was missed. some of it was frustrating,

but I just don't think it, I just reject the idea that this is somehow, you have to be on the side of Nick Pizzolato or the side of the League of Women Voters. I just, I don't think that's the story here. Yeah. What should we do next? What do you want to talk about now?

I'm regretting taking that Zin pouch. I feel weird. I actually, you're so pure. I don't know what it would do to you. I think we all know what it would do to me. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in.

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Let's do it. Before we get to that, let's do a quick, like, I want to do a rundown of what you've been watching. Okay. Madam Webb. Yeah. I sat there with you. No, every day I go back.

You go back? I sit in the same seat. Is it like penance? Now I go see it with bandages over my eyes so that I can just feel it. Yeah. I go wearing a knockoff Applevision Pro. No, that's cool. It doesn't work, but it just helps me feel.

Yeah, because we haven't recorded since last Thursday or Friday when we recorded our True Detective finale podcast. So in the meantime, I've tried to kind of catch up on some stuff, get ahead of some stuff. I will say I think the embargo is lifted. So I will say I'm very excited for Shogun. That's next week? It's next Wednesday, I think. And I know Rob and Joanne are going to be covering that on prestige TV pod, but I really can't wait to talk to you about it because it's pretty thrilling. That's exciting.

This has been something that, you know, I think has been in the works for a long time. I think that they, I don't know whether COVID slowed down the release or anything, but whatever extra time they took to dial this thing in is just, you can see it on screen. That's exciting. And let me tell you something, your Nestor Carbonell stock is about to hit. Wow. Yeah. That is at the bottom of my drawer. I have an envelope from a bank that I don't think exists anymore.

Yeah. letting me know that my transaction went through. From PSFS? Yeah. From Fidelity Bank in Philadelphia. I purchased a few shares of Carbonell stock. I remember I was a little exposed in the Carbonell market. And then like around the last few seasons have lost, I went all in.

Yeah. And did you feel like your stock survived the morning show rally? Well, what I do is I just filter out the noise. You know what I mean? I take the long view. I take the long view. Says the guy who learned he was on the morning show. So I checked out the first two episodes of show going to come out next week. And I will say that I am still watching Masters of the Air for out of tribute to the greatest generation.

After three hours of bombing runs where nobody we know dies and they always land the planes, we have finally gotten some plot. We got one guy caught behind Belgian enemy lines. He's being chased by Nazis, obviously. Oh, I was like Belgium. Occupied Belgium. Occupied with delicious fries. I got to say, man, this is the same thing for Spade.

I just love dudes riding bicycles in the European countryside. So I'm actually Masters of the Air is still like a little wooden for me. I was flipping through the Donald Miller book it's based on. I was like, man, there's a bunch of details in this that already just like kind of skimming through it. I wish kind of showed up. But it's growing on me a little bit. And we, you know, I know that I'm, I know you haven't watched it. I haven't gotten into it so much because I turned it on thinking it was the sequel series to Masters of Sex.

Yeah. And I was like, I can't wait to see how they've been. Metaphorically, perhaps it is. But yeah. What about you? Anything you've been imbibing in? You enjoying people riding bicycles in the European countryside is why you're going to now share your thoughts on the Daryl Dixon season one finale, right? That was like months ago.

I just figured you've been sitting on it. Yeah, I mean, I could waste everyone's time and be like, I took my children to see a screening of the Lindsay Lowen version of the parent trap. Oh, that's nice. She's amazing in that movie. Is that, Kai, does that, is that hit for you? Did you see that movie back in the day? Oh, my God, only like 100 times.

I think that's one of the movies we had on DVD when I was a kid. I've never seen it either. I'd seen the original. And then I'd seen, I was a fan of Young Lohan, like Mean Girls and stuff. But, like, she deserved an Oscar for this movie. She is unfucking believable. Yeah. It's incredible.

That's great. She does an English accent. like better than most English people in this movie. She's doing double duty. She's playing twins. That's great. It's also like just, it's Nancy Myers. I know what the broad strokes of the character. Do you know it's Nancy Myers' first movie? Oh. And so

the dad. Beautiful home in Napa. Dennis Quaid is, yeah, he's a winery in Napa. So it's like, hello. And then Natasha Richardson lives in like the perfect British townhome. Yeah. You know, with like a quaint grandfather. RIP Natasha Richardson.

Truly. Yeah. The other surprise for me is that Dennis Quaid's housekeeper slash nanny for his low-hand twin is played by Lisa Ann Walter of Abbott Elementary. Oh. I didn't know that. That's great detail.

This is the most engaged Kai has been in our movie so much. I wanted to go to summer camp like so bad after watching that movie. Did you? No. It's like an East Coast summer camp kind of vibe.

It's not really like a... Did you have a similar experience that when the West Coast twin shows up and they see that she's from California? They're like, do you live near stars in Hollywood? She's like, no. I'm from Northern California. Was that you?

Is that young Kaya? Yes. That was great. But I did want to talk about, I checked out the first episode of The New Look, which I don't think you did because I sort of warned you off of it. No, I mean, I'm going to check out the first episode, but I was like rolling, the other day I was like, I was starting to roll with Masters of the Air.

And I was like, okay, I'm finally getting the rhythm here. I think that, you know, I only saw the first. And I will caveat this by saying, one should not do this. One should not judge things by one episode. I think I feel pretty comfortable saying that this isn't necessarily for me. Okay. So who made it?

Like, I know it's Apple. Todd Kessler, who is one of the team behind damages and Bloodline. And the cast is outrageous. The cast is outrageous. It has Juliet Benoche, who I love always and everything. And she's amazing in this as Coco Chanel. Your guy Ben Mendelssohn. Yeah.

Bloodline's Ben Mendelsohn. John Malkovich. Masey Williams. Argus Stark. She's very good. She looks really good in it. I will say that... Do you want to tell people what it's about?

Yes, this is about the differing choices made by and the ensuing professional and personal collisions between famed French designers Coco Chanel, played by Juliet Pinoche, and Christian Dior, played by Ben Mendelsohn in the years of the German occupation. So this is something right up your alley. You love occupied Europe. It's sort of masters of the era, Jace.

Well, it's below. Yeah. It's the people who were not masters, but we're on the ground. I got to say the master of the air pretty hard on Germany. You could think of these things happening

above and... It's an upstairs downstairs, really. You could watch them both on Apple and you kind of get the whole picture. The... I have two issues here that I think speak to something

that I just want to flag as a concern for the Apple TV project as a whole. And we do this sometimes. And one of the reasons we talk about this a lot, I think, is because Apple is relatively new and also one of the few financially robust players in Hollywood in 2024.

Yeah, we talked to a couple weeks ago about trying to define the Apple aesthetic. And we're still trying to get our arms around it. And there are a lot of good things here, like people who made damages and Bloodline should get to make more TV shows. Ben Mendelsohn and Juliet Beno should get to be the leads of television shows. Period pieces shouldn't be a dirty word. Filming on location in Europe. Like, this is all great. And I'm, and I'm pro.

I think there's one thing that I can't get over, which is why I probably won't be continue to watch the show, which is this is a show made for American television, although Apple is global, about French people in France, cast with Americans, British actors, Australians, like Mendelsohn, French actors. They all speak French like Pepe Lepe Lepeu. They all speak English like Pepe Lepe Lepe. Oh, yeah. The decision was made at some point early on that they would all speak heavily French-accented English.

What would you prefer? I asked this because I was just thinking about this the other day. This actually is something that comes up in Shogun is the way in which Portuguese is shown on screen, which is as English. And you, native Portuguese speaker. I can speak no Portuguese. So I'm glad that, you know, it's half the show is in Japanese. There's about half that's like either in English because of the English character speaking or it's supposed to be Portuguese, but it's like hunt for red October. So that it's like, we're going to hear it as English, but it's be, it's Portuguese.

Portuguese being spoken back. Okay, so that's a little bit like this. I think that's what it's like. This is a, this is not an easy thing. I'm being light about it or being a little glib. Like, this is a serious decision to be made. And there has been, for many years, it was just simple. Everyone spoke English.

And then, or everyone spoke English, but German people spoke English with English accents or something like that. The Valkyry thing, where it's just like, we're just going to cast Kenneth Branagh and Colin Perth and a bunch of these guys as Nazis. And Tom Cruise. Yeah. Then there's the flip side. of it, which is, you know, best

exemplified by something like Pichinko, which is a story told in three languages accurately, and then the, the, Sars, we know, accurately, and then the subtitles were in different colors to let the English readers of the subtitles know which was Korean and which was Japanese. It's very complicated. I was going to say that for me, the thing that

broke the kind of my ability to go back, after Inglorious Bastards, it's hard to go back. Right. Like, after you see people where it's just like, this guy's speaking French, this I speak in German, then they switch, and then, you know, it's hard to then go back to French-accented English. Right.

And so, Monsieur Spade, which we'll talk about in a little bit, I thought did a pretty good job. The main character is American, he learns French, but everyone makes fun of how bad it is. A lot of it isn't French, but then sometimes they speak English to accommodate him. Okay. I believe it. I have never been drop-kicked out of something harder than when Juliet Benoche, a brilliant French actress who speaks perfect English and has won an Academy Award for Speaking English is doing her scenes, and she's great.

And then Ben Mendelssohn and Australian is just like, Zis thing about Couture is that it must be new. And I'm like, what are we doing here? That is not helping his performance. Maybe he thinks he's an actor it's helping his performance. But then he's being interviewed by a French actress who is struggling with the English. In the Sorbonne. Okay.

I'm just, I'm out. Okay. It's very confusing to me. The second thing that I was interested in about it that I think speaks to the larger Apple thing is that this is a show that's ostensibly about the development of, of French couture and visionary designers and what people looked like and what people wanted to look like

and aspired to look like coming out of a very dark period of history. It is also a, you know, behind the scenes gripping drama about the French resistance and about Nazi collaborate, Coco Chanel's a, whether it's willing or unwilling or duped Nazi collaborator in a way that Dior was not. There's a lot of history there

and it's based on a lot of books and reporting. I don't think, limited series shows can be about as much as some of these people think they can be. Which is to say that I wonder sometimes if Apple's pocketbook dilutes the effectiveness of their art because they can say, sure, make it about everything, if that makes sense. There's a ton of money on the screen and a ton of money spent recreating Dior's fashion, but also slutting the streets of Paris with error-appropriate Nazis with machine guns. it's a lot of different things all at once

when one or the other might have made for a more compelling show. I have not given this this much thought, but let me ask you something. Because I've been thinking about Masters of the Air in the same way, where I think that some of the things that are evident are they spend a ton of money on it. I want to even say that the CGI,

it is grown on me slash I've gotten used to it, slash maybe I watched a screener of the first episode and now that I'm watching them on Apple TV, it looks better. I don't know if there's been some sort of color correcting or finishing of that effects and stuff like that. The one thing that I think is absent is a certain kind of interpersonal dramatic tension

between the pilots, so between the characters, like generally speaking after three or four hours, like everybody gets along. And also a kind of definition between character to character of differences that are more than superficial. So like one guy might speak like a Damien character. That's my Barry Keogun, trying to be a New Yorker.

That's good. But there's like a kind of lack of individuality to the characters that I think is noticeable. And I was trying to figure out why that is. And I was like, what does this remind me of? And I was like, you know what it is? Reminds me of reading history books about World War II. Yes. And I wonder whether or not Apple, especially with this show, with sounds like the new look,

I wonder whether Manhunt, for instance, the Abraham Lincoln assassination show that's coming soon, will have this same fate, where it's like, do you know what people really like reading? Historical nonfiction. Do you know what? Historical nonfiction doesn't really trouble you with that much. The interior lives of the people that they're writing about, because they're not, unless you have like the letters,

it's like most historians are trying to sort of, they can pathologize some of the behavior, but they can't really be inside of this person's head the way a fiction author has liberty to be like, I am going to tell you what Frank Bascombe thinks about all the time, if I'm Richard Ford, you know, and he does for multiple novels. Multiple books, yes. So I wonder whether that's like kind of the aim here.

You know, it's like you're taking a time period or an industry or whatever that's incredibly interesting to people. You're essentially unadorned presenting a version of facts. You're sparing no expense in making it. And for a lot of folks, that might be enough. Yes. And I think that there's a too muchness that can. then dilute the art.

And, you know, to have, Christian Dior is a iconic figure and one who I frankly know almost nothing about. And I'm interested. Tell me more. But because of the nature of the show, within the first moments of meeting him, what he has to do is not just learn about his life or his character or his relationship to fashion. He's standing in a ration line explaining that everyone is doing badly during the war. And then he goes back to his apartment where his...

In VO or are these like expository scenes where this is a scene. And then he goes back to his apartment where his sister played by Maisie Williams as part of the resistance. And they've just shot two German officers in the street. What are we doing? This is so much of everything. I was, you know, I love to reference things that I hear on the Mark Maren podcast. And he had a great, by the way, just shout out, Divine Joy Randolph. She's just so great.

I really hope she wins an Oscar. She's from Philly. A wonderful guest on this podcast. In that podcast, I'd love for her to come on this one. Anyway, she's talking about something Do you think she's probably getting tired of going on podcast at this point? Yeah. We'll wait.

We'll wait until it comes back around. But she's talking about projects to merit about projects. She'd like to deliver. She'd like to work on in the future, maybe develop for herself. Okay. And both of them are biopics. And she's talking about advice that was given to her on the set of Dolomite is My Name, the movie from 2019. Eddie Murphy movie.

It was written by the guys who are kind of like, they're the go-to guys for surprising biopics. Scott Alexander and Larry Kyrushisky. Yeah, who wrote OJ. They were the OJ series, but they did the Larry Flint movie, and I think they did Man on the Moon. This is what they work when. And they were saying to her that, like, you rarely are successful doing a cradle to grave bio movie.

You generally choose a fraught moment to tell their story, which I think was the best choice of, in some ways, of Maestro, even though I didn't agree with the movie so much. Bradley Cooper chose a thing. I suppose it was amazing about Ferrari. by the way. That's a good, you mean that's a good example. Incredible, because it's like the months leading up to a big race that's going to define the future of the company. Right. And I just, you just, this is just another long way of saying

that the dilution of what makes something unique or interesting is just so apparent when you have these unlimited opportunities to do all of everything. The, I am not, and you can tell by my uninteresting color story today, naturally drawn to stories about fashion. But I have been really interested in things about fashion designers if they are like, Phantom Thirteen thread or certain seasons of Project Runway, certainly Project Runway Jr. Like I, I, you can make me care about it if you care about it. And I feel bummed that at least, and again, I could watch four more episodes and be totally wrong. But because of the way the first episode was structured, I'm not inclined to do it. Yeah. That the camera seemed only passingly

interested in the couture, the designs and what story these individuals were telling through them, as opposed to them as unwitting pawns in the larger scope of history's grand game. Gotcha. You know what I mean? No, I completely, it sounds like we're actually talking about the same show, even though we're talking about two different shows. If we could do this week to week, we could cover so much more ground. I have said to you before, we could do book reports,

and you're like, it's always best when we're riffing together. Don't, first of all, do I sound like that? No, that's your text message tone. Batman voice? You read my text like Will Arnette doing Lego Batman? That's sick. I love that. All right.

Since we're in the vein of World War II, we could keep talking about Mr. Spade or we could switch... Okay. Let's do a little Mr. Spade, French, Mr. Spade, and then we'll end with the big one. So I'll tell you this. I went ahead and read, re-read, because I think I read it when I was much younger.

Red Harvest, which is the first Ashley Haman novel. Red Harvest is sick. Red Harvest is fucking sick. So it is about a unnamed detective from San Francisco. The Op, right? The Continental Op. Yeah. in a town that sounds like Sacramento or is like, you know,

Bakersfield? Bakersfield, something like that. It's called Personville, but everybody calls it Poisonville. And the op, the detective, is initially brought there to work with the publisher of a newspaper. And then when this publisher is killed, he, for a while he's investigating his death, but then goes on about a mission that is partially being paid for by this newspaper publisher's father, but also is a personal mission that he has decided to go on, which is to unravel this corrupt town.

And the way he goes about doing this is dizzying because Hammett writes largely in huge chunks of dialogue. It's very sparse. It's very imaginative for the reader because there's very few details. and then you'll just kind of like fill out the sort of back of the frame. But one thing that really occurred to me was just how fucking zany it is. Like it is crazy. Like lots of people coming up to him and explaining to him exactly what he needs to know at that very moment. Like it's very if you take away all the violence and all the hard boiled dialogue,

it is almost like a screwball comedy. And that popped up in my head because of watching the last few episodes of Mr. Spate, which kind of, and this would be spoilers for the entire season. If you haven't seen it, you can just skip ahead to the Madam Web part or just replay the true detective part because that was, you know. I thought that was good radio. That was good radio. The end of this show is almost like a screwball comedy in some ways in terms of its plotting. You know, in terms of, and now this person showed up on the bridge, and now this person's here.

And you didn't know that. And like, there's an increasingly kind of supernatural mystical element to it. And these are kind of elements to these kinds of stories that I think in my head. head, I'm like, this is about a detective who's going to get to the bottom of the shit. But in truth, a lot of these stories are pretty zany and pretty funky. And so I wondered whether when I initially finished Monsieur Spade, I was like, what the fuck was that last episode? And now I'm wondering whether or not it was kind of like a tribute to Hammett and a tribute

to some of the mechanics of the storytelling of the source material. I think this is an interesting one to discuss because when, when, you know, Whether you loved this show or disliked it, Scott Frank is at a point in his career, and, you know, in collaboration with Tom Fontana, has been doing it for years as well. I feel pretty confident that they did what they intended to do. I don't think, and again, maybe we'll get some inside tea,

but it just feels like... This was the show we wanted to make. They wrote this together. They got the funding. They made it. And this is what they wanted to do. This didn't get away from them, you know? And maybe that's not even a fair framing,

but I do think the degree to which we try to cover both the content that we see and the industry, it's impossible for us not to sometimes either report on or respond to or at least take into consideration the things that we hear about going on behind, you know, around, behind the scenes of a show. An example of that would be two weeks ago when we were talking about the, I thought, sort of troubled fifth episode of Night Country, which we were like, two different writing teams getting credit for this, which is, you know, that's not the same as the two different writing teams getting credit from Madame Webb. I love the... Madame.

Which is a Monsieur Spade. This is hard to switch languages. I'm the problem. I'm Ben Mendelssohn. You should have saved that for the transition to the Madam Web conversation. That's why you do the transitions. So, yes. And also, like you, I rewatched the Maltese Falcon recently.

I never read the book. So I'm third of the way through the book again. I mean, have you seen John Houston's Instagram posts about Monsieur Spade? He's furious. Furious. I thought he had some valid criticisms, but the way that he delivered them, it's a little salty.

Sounds a lot like Gandalf. Do you think? Well, he voiced Gandalf and animated Lord of the Rings. No, no, right. I thought it sounds a lot like Noah Cross, the old water baron. Yes. From Los Angeles.

Should we just... What are we doing? This is the part of the show where we're just trying to defeat each other in John Houston references. He sounded like he named his daughter Angelica. Yeah. If you know what I mean.

You get it? Yeah, and if you really look at Maltese Falcon, like, it's funny. It's also weird. It's fucking weird. It's a bunch of weirdos walking into rooms and punching, drugging each other, and then talking about it. Yeah. Like, it is not, the Bogart's performance as Spade defined what a detective was for multiple generations, but his behavior in that movie in general has not defined what we think of his detective stories being.

But a lot of this, though, is us sort of talking around the fact that for three episodes, this again, it's a six episode, which I'm beginning to think is a challenging number for a season, three episodes of the show, I was absolutely intoxicated. I loved everything about it. I loved the surprising setting. I loved the way that it was updating some ideas about the classic noir, but also just kind of celebrating them or twisting them, relocating them, seeing what roots that it could lay down. Clive Owen's performance was awesome.

So many interesting characters in this menagerie. And then it kept going. And I was like, you know, re the Algerian war. I was a little bit like my cousin Vinnie. Like, oh, you were serious about that? Well, I think that what you're alluding to is this widening of the aperture that happens after the third episode, where I would not really describe the last three episodes as being about Sam Spade. Which is totally fine.

He becomes, to a worrying degree, he becomes a supporting character. And he reacts a lot always. Yeah. But almost incomprehensible connections, beyond tenuous connections to what's going on. And I think that if you were going to make a two-hour movie called Mr. Spade about Sam Spade showing up in the south of France, you would have him in every shot. Right. And if you're going to make a six-hour show about this, maybe you're doing that because what you want to do is explore all these other. characters. Now, I would argue that the engine of Dachal Hammett's books and most good detective

culture, like pop culture artifacts, is the perspective of the detective and their pursuit of whatever they're the constant. Yes. Now, you know, it's not always like that, but that is like at least true for Hammett's writing and I think would make a very compelling detective series. It's Chandler too, and sometimes people can flate Hammett and Chandler since they're kind of the grandfathers of the form. Yeah, and I think that it's an interesting choice that they make to turn it from kind of like this straightforward small town corruption story that Spade is is unwinding to kind of an almost international borderline supernatural intrigue with like hints of Agatha Christie. There's a magic boy who's basically taking the place of the Falcon in the sense. That everybody is chasing after this kid.

An international McGuffin that everybody's after. But the boy has some like code breaking powers. and the boy has connections to Algeria, which casts a shadow over everything. That's fine, and that's in keeping with it. And you know what else? I didn't even come here to bury the scene that I found kind of preposterous when it was unfolding, which is the Deos X Alfred Woodard,

which is instead of having any kind of like collision, we have Alfred Woodard showing up and saying, everybody sit down and then dictating whatever. There's a huge shootout on a bridge, and then Alphrey Woodard, I'm being serious. And I think both of us were like, am I having,

am I on mushrooms when this was happening? Alfred Woodard shows up and is like, I am from the UN. But I have like a small army with me. And we're all going to go into this house and talk this out. And then all the rogues galleries and spade sit there, listen to what she has to say.

She lays it out. And then a couple things happen. Then it's over. And I think there's just, maybe this is, and I'd be curious, I know that we'll have a chance to talk to Scott at some point,

whether it's about this project or the many things he has going on in development or even in production right now. But maybe this was the plan all along and okay. But there was so much time spent with like Jean-Pierre's traumatic memories, which were beautifully filmed and often fascinating. Like the whole, the time where he's talking to the guy who has no, who's lost his eyesight and that monologue is like seared into my brain. That's a beautiful filmmaking, fascinating. But I can't get over the simple fact that the first episode of the series introduces us this version of Spade into this town that is haunted like a ghost by this bad actor by Philippe Saint-Andre. And the first encounter he has is with Philippe's mother.

He's bringing the person he believes to be Philippe's daughter back to this town. Philippe is a bad guy that has an effect or his hand on every single person that we meet due to events in the past. and we see some of those events in the past, and we see Philippe a little bit in the past, and there's one scene midway through the season where Spade and Philippe sit down in the past. The only other time that they share the screen is when they are both spectators of Alphrey Woodard's speech

before Philippe is arrested and carried away. That felt like storytelling... And Philippe is basically like, you got me dead to rights. It's honestly bizarre. And if it's in tribute to something, I'd love to hear the explanation of it, but I felt like we were sold a bill of goods here. Like, it just felt like it did not deliver.

I think that I didn't, the last, this sort of conclusion of this series is definitely offbeat. I think a lot of detective fiction ends with like a character explaining everything, which so I'm not totally against it. No. But there are some things in this show, namely the George, the male British spy. Oh, Jesus.

Suddenly having a long-standing sexually dynamic affair with the other Algerian sister who has just shown up the episode before and is Philippe's lover. But they're like, they've clearly, not only are they having sex, but they're like, we've met like multiple times before

and we're planning our future together. And that this whole thing is our play. We're doing this. Yeah. But there's stuff like that. The British spy is no offense to those actors. They were pitched so comedically. It was kind of in a different show.

It was preposterous in a different show so that when he suddenly knows Kung Fu and defeat Spade in hand-to-hand combat and then is also just an irresistible lover. Yeah. International style. International loving. That's a whole different thing.

Yeah. I read about it once in a magazine. That didn't... There's a whole subplot with John Pierce's dad shows up in like the fourth episode or the fifth episode. And it's like he hasn't really been mentioned before. But it's like Marguerite has like been...

Is this a... But she's seeing him during the war? Like, what I... Guys, is this... It's not dissimilar to the conversation we've had about Night Country in the sense of... And that we've been having across multiple shows and multiple formats, which is, guys, is this a movie or a show? Is this a novel or is it a short story? That goes to the six.

I wonder whether or not six works for networks for some reason, but not for storytelling. Oh, I mean, when you say networks, you mean like, they're willing to greenlight a six episode. Something about the economics of it or knowing it's going to be like a month and a half of real estate for them. Right. If they don't put it up as a binge. Maybe it's generally speaking the amount of time it takes works really well for people like Clive Owen or busy. Sure. Whatever it is.

But also, and again, we don't have any insight to this. Yeah. And also you and I are Goldilocks. And when it's 10, it's like, did this need to be 10? And when it's three, it's like, why wasn't this fine? No, we've shifted though. Yeah. Nothing was ever too short for a long.

time. Everything was always too long. And one of the main reasons for that was you get paid more if you make more episodes. I mean, that's a really strong reason to do more. There was a time when I was talking about... Why do you think I'm still making the watch? Dude, we're finally getting that. Do we hit syndication when we get to 2000? It's going to be sick. Yeah. It goes on to AM radio across America. There was a time when I was developing Briar Patch and I was saying, like, maybe we only need eight episodes to do this. And one of my EPs was like, do you want to know why we really need to do 10? I was like, great. Sounds good.

And I ended up appreciating that. But yeah, like, but now we've gone so far in the other direction. The thing I was going to say, like, again, we don't know any of the actual details of this. But like, Scott Frank was on this show talking to us about Queen's Gambit when he told us about this project. A lot of time passed. And then he did get to make it, which is awesome. AMC, co-pro with Canal Plus. like one gets the sense that these are the people who wanted to do it,

and they were the only ones, which means that they set the terms of the debate. So maybe that affected things. Or maybe he's going to come on in six months and be like, I pitched them a six episode show and we made a six episode show. Who knows? But yes, it really is challenging for the audience to get its bearings and to understand the story that's being told to it

because you do have room, you know, it's seemingly room for all this extra stuff. But we do have now a developed part of our TV. watching Brain that's like, you've given me these threads, I know we've only got a month left, you're going to braid them. There's going to be a knot at some point. And with this show, kind of there wasn't. It was just kind of like a lot of maybe in tribute to those original Hammett things. It was kind of a hullabaloo. It was kind of like a crazy thing happened and a collision of people and Spade is coughing a little bit and he's looking wry and he kind of puts the screws to Alfreud's story a little bit at the end and then he jumps in his pool. Yeah. And as a daughter.

Odd. She was awesome. I would like to see more of this, of And she just realizes she's his daughter? Off camp. Yeah. Or maybe she hears people explain it. I liked it very much. Yeah. I thought the ending was a bit daft.

It was daft. I think it was a bit daft. Yeah. Okay. From Monsieur Spade. Here we go. To Madame Webb. God, you're good at this.

You want to go first? I want to say. So, we went to see this movie in the movie theaters on Monday. a holiday. I think we celebrated it in the best way possible. We went with a friend of ours, a friend of the show,

a person who makes TV, a person who maybe made the show that's on sick to landing this week. I saw it with Nick Pizzolato separately then. Yeah. You went to the Alamo Draft House. I went to the Oh, hi. Yeah.

So I guess I want to start this way by saying, life has been pretty good in my ivory tower. You know, I step down every so often, but I don't go all the way down to the muck. I'm like, hmm, this bespoke television show about Sam Spade and France is not quite to my liking. It's a little lukewarm. I forgot what true catastrophe looks like.

Right. I forgot how bad things really can be. Sure. It was above all bracing. It was like a slap in the face. to remember that we are really capable of absolute disaster. I'm sending a woman's mother to the Amazon where she was studying spiders, yeah. Yeah, we can really do that.

I don't think we're going to be able to do justice to how absolutely jaw-dropping this movie is. And one of the reasons for it, and one of the reasons why I almost celebrate it, not as some like Future Camp Classic, although it might be, but because one of the things that the Marvel machine has done is that they have the money and the resources and the infrastructure to just keep pounding away at stuff until it's not catastrophically bad, it's just kind of neutral bad.

Yes. There have been a lot of bad Marvel movies recently. Nothing like this. Well, I think the crucial difference there is that Sony was not going to say, you guys need to reshoot the Tahar Rahim part of Madam Webb, among other parts, but yes.

But that would have been in the crucial fix would be like this villain does not work. You know, this villain is either completely spoilers from Adam Webb. I don't know whether anybody has seen it. I just thought it was very interesting. These are, these Sony Spider-Man spin-off movies are supposed to

at least be budgeted around $60 to $80 million. They're very profitable, I imagine, generally speaking, like in terms of Venom at least. Venom was. And actually, I think internationally Morbius did okay. Right. But yeah, I don't think that anybody was like, we have to protect the Madam Webb

IP and make sure we've set up Sydney Sweeney for future Spider-Girl movies. So let's get in here, delay the release, and reshoot parts of this movie. Because if they did, that's even crazier to me, if this is the version of like,

it's been reshot and retouched. I mean, they definitely... There's like 80% of Tahar Rahim's scenes are ADR'd. He's not speaking on camera. Well, it cuts to... It cuts away. It goes over his shoulder. But when he does speak, it's clearly been also 80-yard, dubbed whether by him or by someone else.

That's almost the least of it. I mean, let's try to work some of the stuff back. Can I just give a general thing really quick? Yeah. Okay. So there's this Ethan Hawke quote I really like where he was talking about the making of dead poet society. And he said that Peter Weir told him that to make something to go from good to great is basically the last turn of the screwdriver. But it's the hardest turn.

And I think you could reverse that and be like to make something go from good. or passable to shit is like also a little turn. And you know, you don't even maybe know all the time that that's happened. I had this really interesting experience when I was a kid where I went to a film workshop in Rockport, Maine. Really? Yeah, it was like a film summer camp. So I was like 13, 14 years old.

And one of the seminars that we had was that we had the esteemed film editor, Ralph Rosenblum, come in. God damn. And he edited Annie Hall. How are you still surprising me after all these years? Well, so here's what he did. Robert Rosenblum worked on some of the great films in the last 40 years. Shows us Real Men, an action comedy with Jim Belushi and John Ritter.

Do you remember this movie? No. 1987. Okay. It's about a really like shy, retiring guy played by John Ritter. And one day, like, he gets pulled into like an international spy caper by Jim Belushi. That sounds good. The sits us all down.

And he's like, here is the version of real men that I got. and it is the biggest piece of shit you've ever seen. Now, some of it was like the music cues were missing or off, but it was like the rough cut or the first version of it before they hired him to save the movie. And the difference between what the first version was that we saw and the second version, because I was 13, I was like, we have to watch this movie twice.

Like, I like Jim Belushi as much as the next guy, but Jesus Christ. How much does he like them? Yeah. And I was, it was honestly one of like the, the formative experiences of like watching TV and film because I think I for the first time understood like how close we are to disaster all the time. This is true. And so when you're watching this movie, you're like, yo, does Tahar Rahim suck as an actor? Like, no. We've seen a prophet. We've seen Last Panthers. Like you've seen him be amazing. I've seen him acting English pretty convincingly.

Yeah. Sydney Sweeney, amazing and euphoria. Dakota Johnson has contributed stuff to, like, More than that, there's a scene in this movie at a barbecue where Mike Epps and Adam Scott, who are good. They are good. Are doing their fucking best to make it seem like these characters are human beings who have lived on Earth and eaten food before. And they're dying on the vine. They're trying so hard. Yes. I would say it's like watching a porn movie where there's no sex.

It's just guys talking about their jobs. Yes. It's like, I'm a fireman. I'm a paramedic. You're going to burn those burgers. It is shocking. And I think you're making a really good point, which is to say, when you ask how did something like this happen, what you have to remember is we're joining it now. Yeah.

The people at Sony saw this movie continually over the last 18 months. Yeah. This is the version they were like, well, we've done all we can do and put into the world. That is truly terrifying. Now, I think Sean and Amanda had a pretty interesting conversation on the, picture about this that I wanted to ask you about. Which is how much of your interpretation of the film or your experience of the film is dictated by the fact that it has already gone supernova as a cult disaster?

Zero. Because I... Because you can just judge every piece of art outside of its... It's one of my superpowers. I can step outside of time, much like Cassie Webb. No, I mean, when I'm sitting in a movie theater, there's a level of plausibility that I am assuming. Like, I sit there and I'm like, I've chosen to be here. I'm not rooting for catastrophe. I actually often don't contain the potential of, I didn't think it could be like this.

I was so stunned because, again, just living my life not engaging with everything has allowed me to believe that the lowest, like the worst thing you could do is not stick the landing of a six-part HBO miniseries. Like, this is where I'm existing. Right. You know, maybe I'm the problem because of it. The thing about this that was so shocking was, that it really is, and I want to talk about some of the specific things in it, of course, because they're really funny. But this really is, and maybe there's further to fall. But to me, this is the, like, just the apotheothist of, like, the worst tendencies of the last 10 to 15 years of movie making. In that, why does this movie exist? Fundamentally, this movie

exists, because, as we've reported before, and people know, like, we don't report anything we've talked about before. Sony has the rights to Spider-Man and all of the, the attendant spider characters. And as long as they keep developing these things, they don't go back to Marvel. And they've created this niche where they're like, well, we can make these movies. Our current deal means we can't put Spider-Man in them,

which is so ludicrously pushed to the edge in this film where a baby is born to Mae Parker, but his name cannot be said on camera. You shone out of being named. So they have to do it for that reason. Then there's the cynicism of like, well, we should make a lady superhero. What's in the catalog?

What do we have the potential to make here? And they find this obscure character who has powers that do not make sense without Spider-Man A. Do not translate to the screen because in the comics, she's an old paraplegic blind lady who can sometimes see scraps of the future.

And C, to get to this character with these powers that don't translate to an action movie on the screen, we have to then engage with, in my mind, the bottom of the barrel in like millennial Spider-Man storytelling, which takes away the central,

the key interesting point of the character, he's just a kid from Queens trying to make it. You're such a Spider-Man originalist, man. You say this every time. And then they're like, no, he's part of like a series of spider totems that has happened throughout history. What are we fucking doing? So all of that, okay,

but a lot of these movies are cynical because we're just mining IP and we get it. And you can make something, you can make lemonade out of these lemons every so often. Okay. can make Craven out of this hunter. But let's fucking hope. But I feel like people are not understanding this enough.

This entire movie, which costs $120 million, it's going to lose $100 million for Sony. This entire motion picture is a prologue for the movies they were hoping to make later. This movie introduces an uninteresting character, played uninterestingly by Dakota Johnson, for the sole purpose of gathering young ladies. played by Sidney, played by Isabella Merced, and Celeste O'Connor, who are all doing their best, to become spider girls later. I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a spider girl today. Yeah. They don't even become spider people in this movie.

You turned to me at what you must have assumed was like, we can't have that much longer to go. Yes. And you were like, they're not even going to become superheroes. this movie. They are instead just... They actually never exhibit any powers whatsoever. Or interest in having powers. They're just ladies and half shirts

in 2003. Yeah. Now... Which is to line up with the Spider-Man timeline? The Tom Holland's Spider-Man timeline. Which, again, they are not allowed to reference. Right. They're just allowed to be... And which will soon be erased when they just jumble all these, like,

the chronology of Marvel anyway. I guess so. And Tom Holland's probably like, I can't keep doing it. this. So, even within this, I'm like, okay, even then, if you had a screenplay that evinced any familiarity with how humans behave and speak to each other, maybe you could get away with it. But we're sitting here and like S.J. Clarkson, who's had a bad beat. I mean, she directed, she's been very successful directing for TV for many years and done things that we've liked and did like the Jessica Jones series, but also did the Game of Thrones spinoff that's been memory hold and buried and now has made this.

Shoots this movie like she's shooting United 93 with Paul Greengrass. I know. The beginning is, I think it's supposed to be like point break or something, but yeah, I know what you mean. And then you end up with these long tracking shots where Dakota Johnson is like reaching for milk and pouring milk.

And then she goes and gets a suitcase. She's like, middle of the day. Time to pull out my suitcase of memories that my mother gave me from her time researching spiders in the Amazon. And then like, okay, we get it. Sometimes characters and movies look at pictures to remind themselves of things or to tell the audience things. But then they don't need to be like, I hope it was worth it, mom.

There's also like some stuff in this that's almost old school. And like it feels like it was me. It actually feels like it was me when they were making like Electra and like the bad daredevil movies where there's a whole scene where she's concussed and she shows up to this barbecue and is like, can I get a cold one? And they're like, no beer for you. Ma'am. Ma'am.

Have a cold Pepsi. Yeah. A lot of Pepsi's in this movie. There's so much Pepsi spawn. but like it is so funny because it's almost like there's really no reason that this woman, I mean, I guess you shouldn't drink beer when you're concussed, but you probably shouldn't also go to barbecues then.

And she's like, it's just like, why is this scene exist other than to give her a Pepsi? Well, and also to give her some backstory, but like there's this long scene in the beginning where she's talking to Ben Parker played by Adam Scott and they're like eating Chinese food and there's like four containers and they're all unruffled and the chopsticks are sticking out of them. And they're like, ah,

You never do talk about your mother, Cassie. I will soon become an uncle. Also, I'd be greater for me. Did you notice that, like, the noodles were, like, prop noodles? Because, like, there's no, like, it's not lo-main. It's just, like, white noodles. This is a movie where they're, like, we got to get out of the city, girls. So she drives a stolen taxi into the deep woods.

And it's like, I'll be back in three hours, jaunts back to Queens. But then she's like, there's an APB out from my arrest for, kidnapping these girls. Aha. I will remove the license plates from this taxi cab, leave them on the ground near the taxi cab, and forget the fact that my taxi cab, which is stolen, has its numbers written all over it. And then I will drive this taxi cab repeatedly,

drive it into a diner to defeat a villain, and then when I realize I need to go to the Amazon to see where my mother died researching spiders, I drive this taxi to the airport, board a plane, though there is an arrest warrant out for me, vacation in the Amazon with the English-speaking Peruvian spider people

have kind of like from narcos kind of have a you appreciate that kind of have a mescaline experience like becoming one with my mother in the past and then being like

aha now I have other powers of some kind this is a movie that lingers on a puddle of amniotic fluid through a window multiple like

there's just a lot of discretion about this to communicate what has happened she's like aha a woman's water has broken in this room.

Guys, it's so, it's so wild. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy because it's like, I, I, as our, as our film going, I would just say like, the feeling is like, it's surprising that this one got through the ball, like through the wall. It is, it is wild. It's actually proof of life in a way.

Yeah. That they weren't able to quantumania this into being just flat and okay. But you know what? I actually almost get it. You know, I can get it. They're not like, yeah, we could spend like 80 more million dollars on effects or like try to try to do another pass. But it's like, maybe this is just a turkey and we'll just do it. The funny thing is, or the crazy thing is, is this stuff, like they have sent, they sent this entire cast out there to the world to be like, you got to promote this movie.

Put on these dresses that look like webs, ladies. You'll never wear a spider costume again. I'm actually legitimately curious to see, because Sydney. Sweeney's hosting Sarii Alive in a couple weeks? Is she gonna Is she gonna be like, how about fucking Madam Webb, man? There's these little things too and I get like Sydney Sweeney. Can you fucking believe that movie? You get Sidney in this movie.

Like she will do a Madam Webb skit. She plays the shy, bookish one who wears a lot of clothes and sweats and is like good for stretching her range. But again, it's just like, what are we working with here? What are our choices? Yeah. The last thing we have to say

is that the Tahar Rahim character is Ezekiel Sims. They got to fucking, we got to make this right. It is so wild. So this is a character who, as mentioned before, was researching spiders in the Amazon with her mother and stole the magic spider that could make him one of the floating spider people. Because he came from nothing. I guess he came from nothing.

So now in the future, he's haunted, he keeps a spider in his, he's like a millionaire in New York. He's haunted by nightmares in which the spider ladies, who don't exist yet, kill him. And he hates that. They steal a spider and they kill him. So in order to stop this from happening, he must identify who they are and kill them first. And to do that, he uses the Patriot Act. To do that, he uses the Patriot Act, which is working for him and his tech associate, Socha, Mamet. Every time we say something, you look at Caius' head, twitch.

She stopped recording 20 minutes ago. And the Patriot Act, by the way, working to an unprecedented degree to identify Isabella Merced and, a taxi, but doesn't work to stop Cassie Webb from leaving the country and coming back again. Right. So his plan is to identify them now, because 10 years in the future when their spider girls are going to kill him. Well, no, he doesn't know it. Well, no, she ages. It could be the future. No, no, but Sosha's like, if it's these people, it looks about, it looks like you're 10 years too soon because I've drawn sketches. She's also an incredible courtroom sketch artist of your dreams, and they look younger

than that. So at this point, in ordinary supervillains like sick, I've got 10 years. unlimited surveillance technology, and, by the way, the ability to immediately stop people's hearts by touching them. Can I also just mention, since we're just fully spoiling this, the sickest part of the movie,

is that when we meet to Harrah Rahim's character in New York City, he is attending an opera with Jill Hennessy. That was my dream when I moved to New York. And Jill Hennessy is a CIA agent. Well, she's like the administrator of the Patriot Act. She's like a security admin for the CIA who is at the opera

single gets picked up by Taharim sleeps with him and then he paralyzes her. In exchange for her password, which gives him personally the Patriot Act. Access to the Patriot Act. I want to just harp on the fact that he can kill anyone by touching them because I feel like in a city like New York with 10 years to spare and correct facial ID of your future murderers who are, I want to stress this again, high school children whose idea of staying out of sight is wearing half-shirts and dancing on the table at a diner. To Britney Spears, yeah.

You could probably come up with a way to just brush past them and thus end their lives. Like, as someone who lived in New York in 2003, brushing into people was just kind of, that was the price of the ticket. That was the vibe. That was Electro-Clash writ large. Okay? That's what we were doing. That was plant bar. Yes.

And you're like, who else is in this bathroom? So instead, though, his plan is. to see them all together at Grand Central Station, show up barefoot. I think even Social Mamets's like, they all happen to be together at the same time. I can live the rest of my 10 years going to Electro Class shows.

Have you guys heard of Stella Star? That's going to be a scene. Can't wait for Linsanity to happen. He goes there, and when he's thwarted in his first attempt to murder them by touching them, he changes in to his janky, off-brand Spider-Man suit for a second pass.

I just feel like he needed an ops guy. It's dump you're wearing. And I, you know, I watched the beekeeper. I talked about that on the big picture. I really enjoyed myself. There was something much more light on its feet about the beekeeper, even though it was kind of about QAnon. And I think the problem I had with Madd,

but ultimately was that the middle hour of it is like truly, you just feel yourself getting older. And that's like a big crime of a film when you're just like, it can't be bad and boring, you know? Yeah, but that fireworks factory is a death trap. That is. Hey, it was great talking to you today. You too? No Zins today. No.

You want to pop one now? No. I wanted to take this seriously. I didn't want to have a heart attack. Can I at the end of this podcast? Because I know Kaya's assured me that everyone listens all the way through to the end. So this is the best time to do it. Oh, you want to stick the landing? Yeah, just because I didn't get a chance. The leftovers is up this week.

With Mina. Good friend of the pod. Kinds. A friend of ours, Mina Kimes. The first listener generated one because the first episode went up and she texted and was like, Can I do the leftovers? I was like, yes, yes, you can. Really a pleasure to do the podcast with her,

but also to revisit a show that is even more incredible, I thought, in retrospect, despite my still have my misgivings about the first season. I also just want to say, if there's anyone still listening who's interested in that podcast project, yes, we have not done a lot of the more obvious ones. That was always the plan.

We are not doing lost. We're not doing the Sopranos. We're not doing Seinfeld. I like how you don't tweet. But now you tweet at the end of the end. end of pods where you're like, I need to address people. No, no, no, no, because I think that people in my life have been like, oh, so when are you doing Breaking Bad?

Yeah. This one. The first 10 episodes, we're trying to do a mix of things that are like expected and also surprising that are going to get good conversations and we're going to get to more contentious ones later on. Okay. You want to be on it sometime? I'm recording one with you soon.

We don't have to play, you know, three card Monty with our listeners. We tell them what we're doing. No. Okay. We'll play two card Monty. Okay. We'll tell them once we've recorded it. what I'm saying. I don't like to jinx it.

No, you're right. We were produced today by Kai McMullen, who showed incredible patience with this long and winding conversation. Are you going to see Madam Webb now? Yeah, you guys really sold it. Did you feel left out that we didn't include you? I know it was Wellness Week and it was a holiday. Yeah, I don't know why Damon got the invite, not me.

That is true. Next time, you can, you're definitely welcome. Great, thank you. We'll buy you popcorn. We will be back on Monday, I guess. I guess. Play three card Monty. Don't commit. I'm like, what else is there to talk about? We hit everything. We really did too much today, didn't we?

Can we do part one and part two and take off next week? We'll talk to you guys on Monday.