The Watch - The Watch's Year in Review Mailbag

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

Chris and Andy break open the mailbag to answer questions like whether they were more drawn to travel shows in 2020 (3:40), their ideal episode length for a show (8:34), the single best TV episode they watched this year (41:42), and what the television industry might look like in 2021 (51:23). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ride. I am an editor at the wrigger.com and joining me on the other line. It's the New Year's baby. It's Andy Grimald. Chris, I'm so happy to be with you.

It's December 31st. What a year. Am I right? I don't know about you, but it's been a great one for me. It's the year in mailbag. We're going to get right into it. It's the watch pod. Let's go.

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The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. Andy, 2020, man. We did it. We made it. I just...

Well, actually, I speak too soon. It's only the 17th when we're recording this podcast. So there's still 13. days for us to screw it up. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm not counting on anything. I just feel like, I'm just glad we're giving more content for people to enjoy before the ball drops because, like, you know, everybody wants to squeeze every last drop out of this year. You know what I mean? Just like that little bit of extra vaccine they're finding in the bottles. It's like it's just a little bit more for everybody. Yeah. Today is the extra Pfizer doses is, I mean, who knows what will come out in the

next two weeks, but that's quite a revelation. For what it's, worth. I did not, they asked for a recommendation letter for Doug when they brought him on as chief vile officer. And I was like, Doug from title. Yeah, Doug from title. And I was like, I know that you want like a robust endorsement of Doug. And he is a loyal employee, but I cannot, I cannot full-throatedly endorse him because, you know, he sometimes he misses the small stuff, like two extra doses in every bottle of a life-saving vaccine. Andy, so we solicited questions for our year-in mailbag from Twitter, from the Watch Facebook group. Shout out to the Watch Facebook group. I know you guys are working hard on your own year-end rankings,

and we will address those when we get the official, all the official documentation and all the votes are counted. We will finally send that to the Electoral College and talk about that in a pod to be named later. If you're listening to this- Unfortunately, Ted Lassow is an illegitimate winner of that list. We're going to solve the steel. recording this on the day that our best of 2020 TV pod went up. And thank you so much to Sam Esmel for being so generous with this time. And me and Kaya and Andy, we all provided our lists with Sam. And Ted Lazo did not make it, as did several other shows that did not make our top tens. But I had no idea there was such a Make America Ted again army out there ready to get in the

mentions. Yeah. I mean, here's what I'm going to say to you, Chris. Like, better to just lay down the marker early. Because in the scheme of things, in the Ted Lasso discourse, okay, I'm John Kasich and you're Moscow Mitch. What I'm saying is, from the beginning, I was a never-teter. You know what I mean? And I feel like people respected that because I've always been a straight shooter when it comes to single camera comedies.

Sure. You, on the other hand, you were just like indulging, like, oh, it's so charming that he's an American. I really, I love the show, Ted Lassau. I've never backed off of it. You even went to a meeting in the Oval Office with Bill Lawrence. And then when the chips were down, when it was time to say who the rightful winner of the year in TV of 2020 was, you were like, the voters have spoken.

Yeah, President-elect Michaela Cole. That's right. That's exactly how it played out. And so I feel like you're getting the brunt of the pushback. And frankly, it's deserved. It's all love, though. You know, you're my friend. I'm glad that there's such a spirited debate about what.

which would be on the top 10. I wanted to get right into our questions. This first one comes from David Firestein. And he asked, in a year defined largely by our inability to go anywhere, did you find yourself more drawn to TV and film that took you away or that really dug into that claustrophobic space with you? I thought that was a cool question just because obviously it speaks to, sometimes there are themes of the shows that you're watching that do not necessarily coincide with the themes of what being alive is like. And I think we spoke on our best of pod about how I may destroy you, and industry specifically felt like very much shows of the moment, if not shows of the pandemic. I think David's question here, though, is interesting because I

definitely found myself longing for wide open spaces, longing for shows that explored the worlds that they were set in. I don't really know what a claustrophobic show would be or a claustrophobic movie for that matter would be. I mean, host is the one piece of sort of pure quare content that I loved. I have one. The Great, which I think is an excellent show up and on the board. I'm glad there's going to be a second season of it. But legitimately, I struggled with watching the season this year because it is primarily

set inside of a castle. And I use the word claustrophobic to describe it. Like, I think the performances on it are fantastic and the banter is top-notch. But the more I watched it, the more I felt trapped in those ornate roots. rooms with, you know, in some scenes there was even a live bear there as well. And that was a struggle for me. Whereas shows that, and more, actually more specifically this year, and I know this is a little bit off brand, movies took me out of that. Yeah. And a lot of burn on the criterion collection this year. I know. You're a power user. You get all the little like badges

that they give out. A lot of, a lot of reinvestment in French cinema, which was a surprised. maybe not to the listeners. I've been meaning to ask you about this now that we're really talking. What's up with that? Why? Yeah, like, I think I've known you for half of your life at this point.

And I don't remember you ever talking as much about foreign films before as you did in 2020. Is I just not listening? I was muzzled, you know. But now that I, now that I'm on substack, I can finally be honest about my passions.

I hope people are following me on parlor or parlay as we say in French. That's where I really let it fly. I don't know if you're welcome on parlor. No, I think that mainly because I'm not a full-time movie guy like most people are, or more seriously like the way I think,

you know, you and your wife watch a lot of movies and that's part of your life and certainly our friend Sean Fantasy watches a ton of movies. The time that I was seeing a lot of movies was pre-podcast and certainly pre-children. You know, like there was a period when Netflix was just the red envelope company where I did like the let's educate. We did.

My wife and I like, let's educate ourselves about the French New Wave or like let's watch the Altman movies. So that was more my my movie time. And then the Criterion Collection has really been a gift because there are either filmmakers that I had not like fully uvered to mangle a French word or, you know, or I hadn't seen it a while or one of us hadn't seen. And I think that subconsciously, we both kind of realized to bring it all the way back to the question that there was this longing to kind of escape. So we were watching Call My Agent because my friend Giancarlo, the composer of Breyer Patch, loved it and was talking about it a lot. But then we kind of realized it was fun being in Paris. It was othering to be with people who could go to nice cafes and drink wine. Yeah, we talked about that with Sam with like, that's why I like zero zero zero.

I mean, most of that is depiction of hell, but at least it's in Italy, you know? Exactly. Dante had some great points. But right. But then being able to transport yourself, the other thing I'll say, and I wonder what you think about this, other than a few very, very strong exceptions, obviously, the sort of broken up nature of TV

means that even when you are fully submerged in it, it's short-lived. You know, you emerge from it kind of blinking, and then maybe it's time to get a snack or maybe it's bedtime or whatever, unless you are hardcore, like it's so good, you just can't stop and you binge. With a movie, you kind of have to plant yourself

and something happens, I think, between that, the end of that first hour and into the second when you are more fully just taken away by the artistry or the world. And that's why it's not just French movies. I was telling you recently, like Criterion had the films of Bill Forsyth, this great Scottish director up. And I hadn't seen local hero in 20 years. And you watch it and you're like, oh, there's beauty in the world. Right. And Peter Riegert in the world, you know, and the world contains both. So that was our couch journeying. Well, you're something of a sorcerer when it comes to segues. because Michael Avery asks,

what works better during the pandemic? An all-episode season drop or once a week, I think it's a tough one considering the lack of culture exchange at work, dinners, events, etc. And Michael's point is really interesting. I think that in the last few months, especially, I have become much more partial to,

even if a season is available right there for me to watch or if I happen to have screeners or what have you, stretching shows out as much as possible. So obviously I don't have kids unlike Andy, but, you know, like... And as I've said before, you're welcome to at least one of them. Thank you. Do I get the number one draft pick, or is that like a child to be named later? I think we should think of it like Netflix when they were envelopes.

Like, I'll send you one. You have it for a while when you send it back and then you can have the other one. What do you do when your kid comes back to you and it's like, I love what chicken and watching zero zero zero? I thought we were still doing DVD jokes, like scratched and unplayable? I mean, okay. To Michael's point here, I have really tried to start conserving my shows,

especially now because I do think we are hitting a dip, a little bit of a drought before, like I don't really think that there is an HBO show on for the foreseeable future that would be in our wheelhouse. I mean, maybe correct me if I'm wrong,

but at least I haven't noticed. I know search party comes back to HBO Max soon, but in terms of that, like Sunday night prestige drama or comedy. I haven't seen it. So stuff like that, like it prompts me to kind of make things last a little bit longer.

And you and I, I think, had like a little bit of, no, like a friendly tug of war because I think we wanted to make industry last as long as possible. And we were excited to do week by week.

But, you know, once they dropped that whole season, I couldn't say no. Yeah, I held out as long as I could, but that show in particular, you know,

it, I just, I loved it. And so I did hold out longer than you. And then I think we watched the last, we watched the last three episodes in two nights, one night than the last two just because we couldn't stop. And that sort of proves why it was smart to drop it then because it's such an addictive and pleasurable show.

But yeah, I, I think that there is still just so much content, you know, and I think that people's watching this year has probably been deeper, as opposed to wider because they could go, you know, watch movies or discover shows they never saw or catch up on things or dabble or do repeat viewings. I think a lot of people, certainly in the first months of the pandemic very publicly, were like, okay, I'm going to do Mad Men again now because I guess I'm home for a while. So because of that, I've really enjoyed, and obviously I was already on this train, but like, one Mandalorian a week is great. It's a nice, it's a nice thing to have waiting for me on the

weekend. And I definitely wouldn't want them all to be out there. It's more pleasurable this way, I think. Still. It's interesting to think back because I don't think obviously we'll ever, we've seen a couple of different formats of release this season. You know, there's been the Hulu and HBO Max have both experimented with batches and then once a week, you know, putting up two, putting up three and then going one, one, one, one. I've found that there are some parts of seasons where the episodes actually do go very well together.

Like, I actually do think that the last three episodes of industry are of a piece. you know, the Christmas episode and then the two last episodes. Everybody has control over this. You just have to decide when you're willing to watch it. You know, like you can wait for a season to all air and then binge Westworld if you want. You just have to stay off the internet. I think that what you alluded to, the here are a couple to get you hooked and then we're going to parcel them out after that. I think that's a pretty smart way to do it.

I mean, well, I guess let's say this. It is not one size fits all. I mean, I may destroy you, which was, you know, my first. favorite show of the year would never work as a season dump. Like it just wouldn't, not just because the episodes were occasionally intense or harrowing or emotionally challenging. It's also that Michaela Cole was doing something so radically different aesthetically episode to episode that I think that would have just been completely lost and not appreciated to the degree that it ought to have been. But for something like The Boys on Amazon show, we really enjoyed talking about dropping three

and then going week to week for five, I think was the smartest play. Because the fandom is rabid. But Amazon, you know, I mean this, with all respect, like, they, I don't know if they have that many narrative driving shows at the moment. And so I think it worked to everyone's interest to service the hardcore fans, but also to try to curry favor with a larger cultural industry that supports things over the longer period of time. You know, one of the things that we want to talk, we've talked a lot about how TV is getting released. We've also talked a lot about how TV is being canceled. A lot of shows not coming back, some due to ring. some due to pandemic-related economics, scheduling, et cetera. So along those lines, Andrew Epstein asked, could TV creators and execs be flexible enough to structure show deals

to allow for a limited four to five season run with an option to go further so that at least a lot of these shows that are canceled prematurely, i.e. Glow or Lodge 49, can end their stories in some fashion. In a perfect world, I suppose that would be great. I think that I would be curious to know what would have, happened with Glow had we not had COVID? I think that's a show in particular. We had that conversation when it got canceled and you had said like this is, I think you were much more like this bullshit. Like I hate this. I still feel that way. Yeah. And I was a little bit more like, well,

but what about this, that and the other thing. And I have no inside information about that. It's unlikely that we'll ever get built in exit strategies for shows. But what do you think about that? Like, do you think that that's like a possibility in the future where somebody could say, hey, look like, here's how I want my show to end? Can we guarantee that we can build towards that? No. You can't. I mean, you can't in the sense that if you sell a project as a three-year project,

I mean, there are shows. And I believe Dark may have been an example of that where they were like. I think they had 36 scripts for that. They're like, we're going to do the whole thing. And this is what it is. And so everyone knew what it was as you enter into it. And I think that there's, we will see more of that, certainly. But there are a lot of moving people.

that don't have to do with story that ultimately decide shows fates, you know? And you know, speaking from personal experience, like Briar Patch was an anthology show. The second season had, as I pitched it, had very little to do with the first season. There were no actors whose deals needed to be reworked or whatever because it was going to be a mostly, mostly new cast with some surprises. The issue was the sets and stage space and where we were going to do it and the larger issues of crew and when we would have the schedule, you know. So even though we could potentially make another season someday, should, you know, somehow the show find a second life,

they had to officially cancel it for their own internal, legal, and business affairs-related reasons. Otherwise, certain things would have been triggered. Right. So that is a tough one to overcome. I think the long way to answer that question, and I've already done a pretty good job making it a long answer, is if creators' pitches will be more aligned with what people are interested in,

buying. And what I mean by that is we saw pretty definitively this year that Netflix's internal strategy is for much shorter runs. Yeah. Seasonal runs. Season run. So one season show, two season show, three season show, very unlikely to get, even though it's very alliterative, fourth and final. We're not going to see too many more of those. I don't think. Why is that? It's because on a very crude binary zeros and ones level, the money you spend to market a new show gets, you a better return of eyeballs and new subscribers than the money you spend to try and convince people to watch something they may have already missed the boat on. Right.

And they're like, I can't catch up with 24 episodes of this thing. It's not going to happen. You're spending the same amount of money to put up billboards to, but the return is very different. If it's a new show, you're attracting potential, a whole new potential audience who might become invested into the show and your service and everything that you're selling in that one billboard. If you're putting up a billboard for the third season, you're spending the same money, in the billboard, but you're really doing it to remind people who have already been watching, and there's attrition every season. So that's just not the same value for these corporations,

particularly the ones that are more technocratically inclined like Netflix. So that's it. If you walk in there and you say, here's my two-season pitch, that's a better bet than saying, we could do 10, which was kind of the weight of riches in the previous universe. And ironically enough, I feel like it's been the self-stated, the self-defined limited series that everybody is like, please make more. Whereas it's the shows that could go on for four or five years that seem to have a hard time sustaining that. But like nobody thought that there was going to be a season two of big little lies. And yet here we are with rumors of a season three at this point.

So interesting. On Twitter, Kirk asked Kirk series Facebook, Mavs blogger. For a television series, for a television season, what is your ideal episode length and number? And for good measure, how many seasons, just your preference is what I'm wondering, these smaller bites of TV these days are very much my jam. I have an answer for this. I've realized that between 47 and 51 minutes and eight episodes a season. And this is the industry thing.

I think there's been a couple of shows this year that I liked quite a bit that definitely did not need to do the amount of episodes that they did in their season. And there is something about industry that felt just right. it was just enough extra to get out of the feeling like it was just a blip. You know, like there was just enough like extra meat on the bone so that you could explore a character like Clement or you could explore a character like Kenny. But then there was a certain momentum and propulsion to the season because you knew it was ticking towards this thing and they could build up. And I think eight, we saw an eight episode version of outsider is great. you know, a 10-episode version of outsider is two episodes waiting to get to the finale.

And part of that is the story, but I think that we're starting to learn more and more as these shows come out. I agree. And psychologically, and please, hoist me on this partard if I ever get to make a, if I make another show and I screw this up. But psychologically, when you fire up an episode and it's 59 minutes, there's a reaction. There's a chemical reaction in your brain that is very different than if it was, 54 or 51. It's just different. And I think it affects the outcome. And that was another aspect of the outsider as well. Look, again, there's no one-size-fits-all thing here. You know, if it's an episode of the Queen's Gambit or if it's an episode of industry, if you're 57, 58 minutes, yes, injected into my veins. Like, I love it. It's a very different watch. But I think the flip side to that is people, and we talk about this a lot, so this isn't breaking new ground. But normal people, I may destroy you,

even a teacher, all intense shows and not comedies, and were very well served by having, you know, none of them had short seasons, but I think they were all over 10 episodes at least, but 10 or more, but they also were half hour shows. All of that to say, I made a 10 episode season, I feel like 8. I agree with you. I think 8 feels really good.

Seth asks, Seth Dissner asks, oh man, this one hits home, close to home. James Hardin could be traded to the 76ers in any moment. In fact, as we were recording this on the 17th, he could have been traded to the Sixers by January 1st. I'm on the record. I don't want it. What is the new actor arriving on an established TV show equivalent of this soon-to-be blockbuster slash train wreck? Or what currently established show would most benefit

from a supremely talented wildcard edition? And who would that be? This is a really good question. God. I mean, you're talking about a person who comes in. Now, if you want to be very specific about what Seth is asking, the question really is what show would you be interested in seeing it changed its entire ecosystem around one person? Like, that person arrives and they would have to change everything. Chris, you've lived in L.A. longer than I have. You're more connected to Hollywood. Which

a-list actor in terms of talent and some degree celebrity from the talent is famous for showing up to set two hours late because he or she just took a private jet from a weekend party in Las Vegas. Mallory Rubin? Other than Mallory. Ring her family excluded. That's the real question we're asking here. Yeah. Okay, well, I think this is a tricky one because historically when great big swinging ego actors are added to shows,

it's generally a late in the game, late in the life sense. cycle attempt to salvage something, right? Or it's like, I don't know why this came into mind. This is not exactly an A-List thing, but like Steve Corel leaves the office and James Spader shows up just to be something to orbit around and see if that's going to work, right? Generally, it doesn't work because the best long-running shows that can survive long enough to even be entering into this conversation are succeeding because of chemistry, because of the chemistry of the cast that they have and the relationship the audience has of the cast. There are, however, certain exceptions to that, right?

Like, if you think of a show, like, Justified, who would bring in some memorable actors... An antagonist, yeah. To be a villain for the season, or damages, right? Like, Ted Danson would be on there. It wasn't like Forrest Whitaker on for a season or something? So there has to be show... Damages is good.

Damages was good. I would love a damages now. Like, if there was, like, I wish there was a show like that. But there's a certain type of show that has a certain type of end. that can withstand the gravitational hit of someone for everyone to sort of scatter and then react to. And the only show that comes to mind that I think that could even withstand, okay, let's put in basketball terms, the only team that has the entrenched culture and up-tempo pacing that would allow the arrival of an unquestionable superstar and still be able to play their game is

succession. Now, who are we recruiting? Who's the free agent that we want to see on that show? I am stalling by speaking at this cadence while I try to think of somebody, but no one is coming immediately to mine. I would, this would be a little bit like two on the nose, right? But what about Timothy Oliphant as like a, as a John Stanky type guy, a Texas telecom guy? What about John, okay, what about Timothy Oliphant as a, now bear with me as a U.S. Marshal? Taking down Kendall.

Taking down for shoplifting. Right? It's not as crazy as it sounds. I think though, but I think that we need... Yes, that's a great idea. Right. Because that would be fun to see. I mean, she's obviously a supporting player.

I think what Seth's... They're looking for... Who's like a big star? Yeah, this is like... I mean, I don't even know if this would be equivalent, but it's almost like when Alan Alda and Jimmy Spitz came onto West Wing. And it was like, you just brought a new big twosome

into a show that it had... probably the most decorated ensemble, you know, of the decade that, when it was on. I would say that the show that I think would be most interesting if they did something like this would be Mandalorian. Because right now, Mandalorian has a real load management system in terms of how they use guest stars, how they bring people on, you know, if Gina Carrano or Carl Weathers or even John Carlos Spazito, we're talking like 45 seconds at a time. You know, we're We're not getting a lot. I would love if the next season of Mandalorian brought in a really, like, interesting character

who got to split the time with Mando and Baby Oats. I agree with that. I would say, like, get one of those, get a great British actor, maybe a younger actor who has been denied the chance to mustache twirl in a Star Trek movie and put that person in Mando universe. I'm going to circle back to succession. What about two-time Oscar Award winner? Mahershala Ali on succession.

Yeah, why not? It works. It works. Yes, yes. But, like, has to be a significant part. Like, I don't just want it to be... No, it has to be the antagonist for a season. That's the only way this works to finally... That will definitely be what James Hardin is, if he is...

That's a thing. It's a one-season rental. Okay, that is true for all of it. Great question. Dean Samboz asks, what will happen now that Marvel and Star Wars are dominating the future of TV? Is there still a future for smaller-scale mid-budget stories, or will they disappear from TV screens

like they disappeared from movie theaters? This is a good question because I think, you know, we did a breathless Star Wars reaction pod. We talked about all the Marvel shows. I think that there's, you know, Disney has 35 shows coming between Marvel, Pixar, and Star Wars.

So there's definitely going to feel like that's the only thing that people are talking about and that's the only thing that's on. I still think that people go to watch television for lots of different reasons. And you could say the same thing about movies, but when you think about the shows that are traditionally, the most popular shows in the country,

they are workplace, procedural dramas and comedies. And I think that people do like watching TV for either quasi-realistic or aspirational reflections of their lives to some extent, traditionally. And while I think that there will be a whole swath of people who are like my life is dedicated to Star Wars and Marvel exclusively,

I still think that there are going to be, there's going to be a middle ground for that. And the place where this stuff is going, Disney Plus, was not exactly pumping out terriers. You know what I mean? That's the most crucial point here, I think. I mean, are there real concerns

about monopolistic popcorn entertainment dominating every aspect of our lives and these dynastic companies just controlling things by force-feeding them what they think they want. Yeah, these are all legitimate concerns. And similarly, like, a generation of talent, not just actors and writers and directors, but crews, you know, just being locked up and locked into these things for years to come, depriving them a chance to work on different sorts of

projects. All of that is worthy of being a little bit concerned about. I think the state of the world, not just in terms of its health, but in terms of its fiscal health, plays into this, too, because where are people putting the money that they have during a global depression? basically, you know, and in a world where content is being made in this insane reality, averse gravity-defying arms race, like we've seen in the last few years between Apple and Disney and Netflix, like, great, rising tide lifts all boats, just means more writers working and more opportunities and more stories. That we may be headed for a time when not everybody can afford to be making as much as they're making. That seems to be, not money-wise, been in terms of just pure

content. That seems to be where we're headed. But I think your point was really the most important one as a counter, which I actually saw echoed in Joe Adelian's buffering column that he writes on Vulture. It's worth of read for people who are interested in all sides of the ball. The Disney plus success is notable, not just for the sheer magnitude of it. I think it's notable because they are not trying to be Netflix. They're just trying to be Disney. They're saying, here's everything we do, and we're going to do the hell out of it. Everyone else is chasing Netflix and trying to be all things to all people and have workplace comedies and prestige dramas and movies and everything. So it's better to think of it as something adjacent to entertainment, right?

Sure. And I think ultimately, like, you and I are going to watch The Mandalorian and we're going to watch Asoka and we're going to watch the low-key show. And we watched Queen's Gambit and we loved it. My parents are going to watch the Queen's Gambit. And there's a huge swath millions of Americans who spend their money harder and you know, on subscription streaming services too, who are never going to watch Ant Man and the Wasp 3

now streaming on Disney Plus. They're not. So don't be worried. But keep an eye out for stuff and see where things are trending. And also champion the stuff that matters to you because now with algorithms, they know if you're watching it. Sure. It's not like some vague Nielsen thing.

So watch it. All those years of like on the low watching bad sitcoms on Netflix or whatever is why Netflix is the way Netflix is. They're literally making the stuff that they think people want. Yeah. Let's take a quick break and we come back. We'll continue the mailbag. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

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All right, Andy, we're back. Kirstie Campbell asks, will any shows from this year stand the test of time? And what makes a show stand the test of time anyway? Okay, I deserve to have my question answered because years ago in a mailbag, I asked about Schitt's Creek and then got denied an answer for my beloved's. But after the Emmys, Chris admitted it was his bad and that he had never watched. I've corrected this error. and Schitt's Creek is fucking delightful.

It's good. Yeah, it's a really, really, really good sitcom. This question jumped out at me, aside from the fact that she appealed to us very directly, because of exactly what you were talking about earlier with people doing these rewatches earlier in quarantine and in the pandemic, where people were going back through Sopranos

and going back through Mad Men. And I was kind of curious, aside from our best of that we did, if you could choose a show from your best of that you think will be rewerewerewerew. watched in that fashion. What would it be? Oh, great question. Great way to frame it. Let me look at my list. You're a champion installer. Like you never are like, uh, you're, you always like really good at like being like Chris, great question, Chris. And let me just say, while I'm bringing this up, what a great host you are of

the watch. You look great today. The mustache is coming in rich and strong. If I had a ringlight, I would look like Tom Selleck. You should get a ring light. It's a really good investment. Well, you know, I think the easy answer looking at my list and both of our lists is that Better Call Saul because of its relationship to Breaking Bad and because of the way the type of rabid fandom that it has. And also just anecdotally, there are people in my life who love Breaking Bad who never gave Better Call Saul the time of day and are using the pandemic not to watch Breaking Bad, but to finally get into Better Call Saul. That's the easy pick, just because it already has almost like a spot waiting for it in Cooperstown due to its relationship. That said, you know, I could be wrong. This could be recency bias. But people really love the Queen's Gambit.

And I think that they love it in a way that is similar to the way people love, this is the analogy used with Scott Franks, sports movies. You know, I think it is very pleasurable and has become kind of iconic. And I think that it may continue to be. But that is a very different kind of. iconic than the office, you know what I mean? But I think that it has a lot of the, for this new version of TV that we talk about and that exists, I think it is rewatchable in the sense that it is on Netflix forever. So it is always available to pop in and pop out of, watch the parts you like,

watch the episode you like in the way that you might watch an episode of 30 Rock from season two and then season five. I also think that it represents what might be something, it might be a trend in the industry for this type of miniseries going forward. So it might be remembered very fondly or just plain remembered as being important for that reason. But yeah, but ultimately it is a, it is the type of story, usually in movies, that lends itself to rewatches, which is, you know, kind of a underdog triumphs over the world. So I think that it could, I think that that could stand the test of time in that, in that way. So I'm going to hew a little closer to classicism here in the way that people have been doing

it where they're like, I'm going to start Sopranos from one. My wife has been doing for most of, of, the pandemic. She's been watching Buffy, rewatching Buffy with a group of friends with the watch party thing. And we haven't really talked about the watch party functionality that a lot of the streaming services have now.

But I don't think that that's, that doesn't have just, that has quite a bit to do with some of the revivals of these shows as I think people are getting together and sort of chit-chatting about the show while they're watching it. If I had to pick one from my list that I think will have that kind of revival, it's the

crown. Just because I think that, The Crown actually has this nice built-in. You're never going to get too bored because the actors are going to change over. It spans decades. There are standalone episodes that aren't dependent on your knowledge of the royals necessarily. They just tell an interesting story that the royals happen to be tangentially associated with. And I just think that that will be a thing that kind of, and like you said, the Netflix availability of it will prompt people to watch it, watch it again. that is something to just keep an eye on as we consider the next decade. All of the things that people have enjoyed rewatching, not the HBO shows, but everything else, they've been slip sliding around. You know what I mean?

Like the office people have come to, I mean, people consider that like a night light or a nightcap, depending what kind of nights you're having. Yeah. And it's leaving Netflix and it's going to Peacock, and only the first two seasons will be available for free. And that might affect how it lives in people's lives.

friends is jumping to HBO Max. But this next generation of shows are generally being created by the places they will live in in perpetuity, which will matter. Scooter McGavin, as I assume is not his given name, asks, forget about Best. What did you think were the most entertaining shows of 2020? Chris, there's a show that I haven't mentioned on the podcast called Call My Agent. In French, it's 10%. Yeah. 10%.

It's the commission that agents, even in France, take off the top of their clients. I really enjoyed watching that. But no, but the shows that were the most like, oh, good, we have that to watch tonight in my household this year, we're legitimately call my agent and what we do in the shadows, which, as I said on the podcast with Sam, we never breathed word one about here, but we really look forward to it. And it was such a pleasure to have. I don't use trashy in a pejorative way. Like, I think trashy can be fun.

And two of the more entertaining things, I mean, like, we've obviously, like, highlighted so many different shows this year. So I just thought I would shout out to that I felt surely entertained by. And that was flight attendant, which wrapped up. I want to watch that. In December. And I found to be like just kind of like an antic mystery, funny romp while also being pretty compelling. And also on a real like doing Whippets level trashy, I did enjoy watching Outer Banks.

I don't know what that is. You guys were talking about that. I don't even understand. Basically just like a... Is it fictional? Is it scripted? Yeah, it's a scripted show. It's set among townies on the outer banks who are...

Who find a treasure map, basically. Which banks? Whose banks? The outer banks of North Carolina. The great state of North Carolina. Great state. And it's got like kind of, you know, a little bit of Beverly Hills 9-0 vibes, but meets Goonies.

It's just... It was very addictive. It's also pretty silly, but I enjoyed it. Also, I think, people know this and it was surprisingly divisive among our listenership, but the truest pleasure I know is watching Top Chef. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Next question comes from Pab Lita, who asks, fictional place, restaurant bar, at which you wish you could eat, drink, hang out, post-pandemic, of course, could be from any period of time. Like, literally any restaurant. I know. We've gotten to the point now where, like, there's a scene in flight attendant where one of the characters eats a hot dog and I think my mouth was watering. They ate a New York City dirty water hot dog and I was like, does that place on open table?

Can I go pick up? You could willingly transport me to Tattinger's restaurant that was the failed spinoff of St. Elsewhere from the 80s that lasted like six episodes and I would be like one for the house. You know what I mean? Like give me everything on the menu. I wish I had a more specific answer for this, right? I would go to the Moss Isley Cantina. You know what I mean?

I would gladly drink down a wriggling bowl of the Kalamari Chowder on the fish planet of a mandolary. We're like a worm jumps out at you from the bowl. It would be someone to talk to. Yeah. It is a great question, one that we are unprepared to answer because it's just too much. It's too much this year. Jordan says, I watched and loved the honorable woman on your recommendation. Need an episodic spy thriller in honor of LeCherie to finish out the year.

have already seen Little Drummer Girl, Night Manager, and the Americans, for that matter. The two recommendations I have for Jordan are London Spy, which is really quite a psychological thriller. It gets much more into the nature of identity and tying up what we know about ourselves and what we know about the people we say that we love. And it starts Paddington's Ben Wischaw.

It does. And then the other one I would recommend on kind of more of the thriller side of things is McMafia, which I don't think is coming back now, which is disappointing, but it was a really awesome show about Russians living in London and the mafia, the Russian mob operating in London. So definitely check that out if you haven't already. Osiris asks, how do you feel about the FX networks

being consumed by the Hulu universe? Do you think it'll retain its semi-independence for long or do you foresee it becoming standard Hulu? Also, don't ever forget that 7-2 dropping up the villa. This is a little bit of bans from an Aston Villa fan. towards a Liverpool fan as I record this Liverpool is top of the table.

So have some of that. I think FX seems to be by evidence of black narcissists like hoeing their own road. FX made black narcissus in 2020. I mean, FX is fine. Like the FX culture is so entrenched and also strong.

I mean, the leadership team there, John Landgraf, Eric Shrier, Nick Grad, Gina Bailey, and like they've been there for a long time. There has not been any upheaval there. It's incredible.

It's pretty unprecedented, I think, especially this year. And they've done nothing to make Bob Eiger, Bob Chepek, any of the major Bob's, question their value to the larger company and the larger brand. And their presence on Hulu, you shouldn't think of it as them being merged uncomfortably with Hulu. Subsumed. You should think of them as being protected from Disney Plus because it's all one company. And what FX does has nothing to do with what those. brands on the pluse do. And they're instead carving out their own lane there. And, you know,

Hulu has a pretty strong leadership team too. And they've had, they had a banner year for their own programming. How long that makes sense for FX to be a brand separate and apart from Hulu, which also does its own programming? It's an open question. But neither side has done anything to make anyone suggest that they should be merged because they both are doing quite well. And I think that the value, you should also think about it past ratings because we both immediately wanted to point out Black Narcissus, which we haven't watched. It might be good, but it just seemed like such an odd programming choice for the end of this year. But I think that the existence of FX does a lot for Disney, even if it's not evident in the ratings, because the more things happen, like the saga of

high fidelity being bought for Disney Fluse and then push to Hulu and it didn't fit and then kind of canceled the emphasis on Marvel and Star Wars, it might make creators be like, I don't want to bring you my stuff, my risky takes or whatever. And as long as they have a little corner of the building carved out for creators and risk-taking and adult stuff, it helps balance the barren that balances the portfolio and it acts like a beacon light to people who might otherwise be skeptical of Disney. So don't worry about it. This next question comes from Twitter. It's from Sean Hargrove and he asked what was the single best episode of anything you watched this year. That's a tough one.

So the reason why I'm pausing, I have an immediate answer for this. Okay. Because of how we watch TV now and how it kind of all sometimes can blend together into the season statement, sometimes I think I have a tendency to focus on either an episode of a show that confirms all of my feelings about a show. So in this case, it would be the finale of 0-000-0 was, I thought, the most sort of emotionally affected, the most overwhelmed I was by an episode of television. I also think that there are several episodes of Better Call Saul that were, I mean, Better Call Saul is like so consistently at a high water mark, but, you know, obviously the episode, the tell me again episode. But then you start to get into the conversation is, are you really remembering the best scene in an episode? and elevating the episode itself

to best episode territory. But I would just throw out same blood, which is the last episode of 0-000-0 as mine. What about you? Yeah, I mean, immediately my thought goes to Bad Choice Road because it has the Tell Me Again scene with Kim, Lalo, and Jimmy. It's just exceptional and riveting and thrilling.

And it was just every emotion you want to experience when you're watching TV because it wasn't just so expertly done in the moment, but it felt like the culmination of all the hours invested. up to that point. The Jackie Daytona episode of what we do in the shadows, a showcase from Matt Barry and as good as all the memes keep implying to you if you haven't watched the show. Also, it's just so fucking weird. And I know I just said we don't talk about the show on the podcast, but one of the things that really surprised me is someone who's kind of on the fence about it and then

went all in on both seasons. It's just so deeply, deeply silly and absurd. And absurd in a way that most comedies aren't, especially like high-concept comedies. There's almost like a thin membrane of reality you have to stick to to sort of sell the bid or commit to it. I mean, but actually it's not just the Jackie Daytona one. It's the return of Nick Kroll and the haunted witch's hat also was so crazy that I felt like I had taken drugs that usually are left on the screen in industry. Those would be my go-to answers, but then my real answer is Restaurant Wars in this most recent. Oh, yeah, that was fucking incredible, dude.

That was the best sports event I saw this year, too. So I'm going to try and get through a couple of these quickly, Andy. Josh Stern asks me, what Premier League clubs do Kenny from industry and Jonathan from the undoing support? I was really hoping you would tackle this one. Kenny strikes me as a guy who's obsessed with Liverpool, and Jonathan appears to be a smug-posh Arsenal fan.

Would love to know your thoughts, love the show. Thank you so much, Josh. I think Kenny's a Liverpool fan. I think Conrad Kay who made, co-created industry is a big Liverpool fan based on his Instagram. He's welcome to come on and tell us all about it as I am a Liverpool fan as well.

So I'm going Liverpool or Celtic for Kenny. And then I am going to go, see, I know, I'm pretty sure Hugh Grant in real life is a Fulham fan, which would still track with Jonathan. God, I think he might be a Chelsea. fan, though. That's, so those are my answers.

That's bad, right? It's just like, it's like, I don't know. I have, I have negative, my dad was a Chelsea fan, so I mean, all praise do, but like, I have negative feelings about Chelsea fans. Can we tackle this one question that I got that I thought was interesting? Yeah, of course. So I, I got a tweet from Kai, who may be a dog or a dog owner judging by the avatar, and the question was, I would love it if it was a dog.

That would be great. So if it is a dog, I have questions for you that maybe we should devote the rest of the podcast, too. Wanted me to talk about the process for assembling previously on clips. The question was, seems like it has to balance basic info with not suggesting too much about the episode's arc, but can also be a great mislead, like when Game of Thrones threw Benjinn Stark into the finale clip, right? I love this question because this was something that I also didn't know until I was making my show, and I found out that it is entirely the showrunner's responsibility. it's not like there's a team out in Burbank that's just kind of like generating it. Or like lots of notes being like, Andy, we really need to make sure people remember this part. There are lots of notes.

That's why it's the hardest thing. You have to do it with your editor working on that episode. And often it falls to the assistant editor working on that episode to kind of grab clips for you. And furthermore, like if your editors are also good teachers as the ones that I was lucky enough to work with are, they delegate the first passes to their assistant editor. editors to kind of get them some chops and see see how they're doing. But they are noted to death. And maybe that was particularly true because I was on basic cable where, you know, the goal was to try to like remind people because they weren't certainly weren't binging it. Now that you finish

wrestling, you may need to know about what's about to happen. Everything. Also, we wanted to wake up the wrestling fans who had fallen asleep, but didn't want to change the channel. So it was creatively pretty fun to be, to create these moments where like someone says something in one scene and then you have like a sound effect, then you cut to the thing that it was revealed, but they don't know it because you kind of want to leave people with an impression or a feeling. But I think you also have 59 seconds to do it in. So you can't get too cute, too clever. I'll say that they, that probably, it would be hyperbole to say I spent more time on those, but I would say by and large, or at least proportionally, more notes, more overhauls, more complete throat out start agains on the

previously on's for Briar Patch than on any episode entirety. I just, I really, really miss the days. Do you remember how deeply offended we would get by Next on Mad Men? Like the next week on Mad Men bits where it would just be like, John Draper takes his jacket off and says, are you kidding me? And that's like next time on Madman. Yeah, but I did that for the next ons. This is great.

I love talking about this. I didn't do the next ons. The next ons were done by the network's marketing department. Those were not up to me. I did not have say over them. And they don't live on the show because in theory, if the show is ever streaming anywhere, it won't exist. There won't be a next done. So that's done out of house.

And I could tell them, don't do that, please, but I couldn't get involved otherwise. But like the thing about Mad Men, all the little things people don't realize, the log lines for the show that now live on in perpetuity that like showed up in the TV listings or on the TV guide channel or whatever, I had to write those. And I intentionally did those in tribute to Mad Men because there was one where I was just like, Jake throws a party. It's pudding day. Like I really, I thought that everyone would be like,

oh, what a clever homage this was to Mad Men. You know, I can't say that affected our ratings bottom line, but, you know, maybe it did. Maybe it should have been like, stuff explodes this episode. Please watch it.

If you like wrestling, you'll like this. So Julie Vianna asked, this is a pretty short answer, I imagine. are we going to run out of TV to watch? With COVID-19 delays and shooting, are we in for a huge dry spell in 2021? No.

No. We are not. I don't know necessarily that there will always be something great on. I think we have been a little bit spoiled this year. We all talked about how great we thought TV was this year. I am hard pressed to remember any extended stretches of 2020 where we were like, there's nothing to really talk about.

not a show on. That's because we're professionals. We always could talk about your lunch, for example. But I do remember other years where it was like there's thrones and then there would be like a drought, you know, and so there will be stuff on. I think Netflix has been very bullish about their pipeline, but I don't know necessarily that we're going to have everything lined up the way the schedule makers would have dreamed. Like, for example, Succession, you know, was scheduled.

It's not just the production schedule, but it's scheduled with the programmer's eye towards when they might want it to air. Like HBO has just been so bespoke about always having the next thing ready to go, locked and loaded, ready to go. All of those best lay plans were disrupted. But almost everything went back into production over the last few months with some notable disruptions and outbreaks. Most things have been able to miraculously. And thanks to the watchful eye of Thomas Cruz, things have been able to stay in production. safely, so it appears. And so there is a ton coming. More things are going into production. And in fact, the way it's being spoken about in the town, if you will, it's no longer worry about

what will be on the air next year. It's that literally nothing is selling right now for new projects because, yes, there's financial question marks across the board. But in the words of my agent, a lot of planes on the runway. Yeah. Like if you look at the movies, schedule for next year, it just seems absurdly loaded. It's not dissimilar. Like, networks are trying to, they've already had to spend so much money for the COVID protocols and insurance and delays and holding cast deals and whatever. Just getting these planes going is the priority. So, which isn't to say there isn't a gap coming at some point, but the thing that we were most afraid of earlier in the year, TV-wise, not personal health-wise, has not really borne out. Things are in production.

Jackson Brown asked Red Lonesome Dove. Thanks through the pod. It's easily my favorite thing I read this year, Jackson, we got Jackson Brown to read Lonesome Dove? Did we just hit Boomer Yotsie? What 20-year-old doorstop are we tackling in 2021? Underworld from here to eternity. Stephanie Myers' Midnight Sun. That's a no for me, dog. I got to admit, Jackson, I don't have a lot of doorstoppers right now in the queue. I'm coasting in a cool 300 for each of my books that I'm getting ready to read, but I don't know. What do you want to do next? Should we do another huge book? I think we should all read James Salters all that is and just like just luxuriate in the minutia of an advertising executive's extramarital affairs in 1960s, New York.

Is, you can only be you. And if you text me something and I'm like, yes, that's cool, man. Like, so you, why don't you tell people what happened? I'll tell people what happened. Andy texted me like two days ago, like six texts to my like neat response. about how he discovered that James Salter was Jewish. And that, like, somehow... I'm so excited.

That was, like, getting a Roman subscription for Andy. It was my... It's my version of a supreme drop. Straight hymns, yeah. And so Andy was so excited to find out that this, honestly, like, under-discussed erotic literary novelists. One of the best American writers ever, probably. Right.

Go read a sport. a pastime. Go, go, go, go read leap year. Let me be clear. James Salter writes about people, humping. Light years. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's cool. It's beautiful. It's beautiful stuff. It's about so much more than that. But you knew that I was just like, that's cool, man. And then you found a way to get it in the pot. Yeah. It's all content. It's all content. I don't, you know, I don't burn that much fuel, you know what I mean? But I'm efficient. So the thing about door stops, though. I think that, like, this is more content I'll use.

I told, I told y'all at the beginning of pandemic, I was reading Magic Mountain. You know what I mean? I asked you about that the other day. And you asked about it. Six months later, but you asked. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for everyone. Yeah.

But the real trick here with Lonesome Dove is not only is, is that it's a very rare book in that it is absolutely formally, structurally brilliant literature, but it is also the most enjoyable popcorn read, you could ever do. Yeah, I mean, it'd be hard for me to be like, let's all read Underworld because Underworld is a masterpiece, but there's not a lot of like, and then the pigs walked across the wagon train and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, it's pretty dense. I would like to pick another big book to do with folks next year, though. I think a summer read is something that we will definitely incorporate into the podcast again, because that was really fun for us. And, okay, so maybe it won't be. So, so Chris's notes so far for next year's summer read are no humping. He wants a hump-free zone. So we can do infinite jest.

You want people to learn, but you want it to be clean. Okay, Betsy DeVos. That's right. Last question, and this is a sweet one. This comes from A.J. Rose. And A.J. said, Andy, Chris, what is the first meal you two are going to have together post-COVID? I mean, I told everyone about how we're going to eat Ethiopian food together in a dark, cramped room. I stand by that.

I think I need to make the wet chicken for you. I think that the first meal that we have together needs to be me making your chicken recipe that you so graciously provided for me, which I have already started to get better at. By the way, people should know you are now acknowledging receipt of this email weeks after election day. I'm sorry, weeks after I sent you the email. Did I tell you that I made a pork chop with a pan sauce the other?

day? No, again, everything's content. What do you keep? Is that what you were doing when I was texting you about James Salter's discovered Judaism? Is it weird that I don't feel like I got a huge pork yield from my pork shop? You always have very unexpected questions from your time. Like the other day, Chris said to me, yeah, so I made one of your chicken marinerates and I, I feel like I didn't fully appreciated it because I marinated a pre-marinated piece of chicken.

No, I didn't. I was asking you about heat. I knew it. I didn't marinate a pre-maridators. So there was almost a... The first marinate kind of washed and cleansed the first marinate away. Don't be the culinary Kaley McInady, man. Come on.

Don't lie to people. You know, I did say that. I was like... I thought that's what you said. That was my takeaway from that. You were talking about whether or not... They were hot zones on a grill. And I was like, is the non-hot zone off or on low?

Right. And you cleared that up for me. But I just... I made a pork chop with a pan sauce. It was delicious. But I just feel like ultimately I had four bites. of pork. Can I say sincerely, like one of the things, because again, we're sharing, we're with our friends here, one of the things that Chris and I texted about and talked about in, I believe,

late February, so good job by us, was we were actually thinking about as adult men of a certain age in the world, traveling to another city and maybe taking in a basketball game or walking the streets and dining at a restaurant, like in a place that we've always always, wanted to go or a restaurant you've always wanted to go to. Taking the show quite literally on the road, best laid plans, unfortunately. So I would settle for anything.

I would love to have a double-marinated point-up with you. I honestly just cannot wait to have like an ice-cold beer and a burger somewhere like with you. I can't wait. God, that sounds good. In 2021. Just jab me up.

We come to the end of another podcast, the end of another mailbag, and the end of another year. I just want to take a special shout out to everybody who listened to The Watch this year. As always, it's the highlight of my week when I get to talk to Andy, when we get to see Kaya and when we get to record for you guys. And there's been so much good stuff to talk about. And your comments and your interest in the pod have always been, honestly, a pleasure.

You know, there's lots of parts of doing this that are difficult, you know, like in terms of just like keeping up with all the shows and keeping up with all the schedules and stuff like that. But honestly, like, when it's this, it's not really work when you get to do it like this. So thank you to Andy and Kaya for making it such a joy to do that, do the show this year. Yeah, big thank you to Kaya for producing us this year and being so incredibly helpful, so good at her job. So calm and patient with us, even when we use her for, like, freelance IT. People should know that we did replace the tequila bottle. And it came, it came bear-proofed.

That's right. Hopefully. And that was the best. Thank you also for making the best story all year. is still the best part, the best thing that happened this year on a podcast. And we had Hugh Grant on this podcast. And Kai's without question. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that this year more than any other, we are even more sincere in saying, thank you for letting us do this because this was an escape for us all year. It certainly was for me, the highlight of the week, the most fun thing I get to do. And I feel like it was a banner year regardless

because, yeah, we had a lot of guess. We had a lot of bucket list this year. Yeah. who haven't we who didn't we get that we really want Barack Obama well that's that's our white whale I mean Kaylee McAnanini to finally hold her feet to the fire you know huge Rose Arc fan

is she here on behalf of the campaign for the White House open question no I just feel like it was it was especially gratifying and fun this year to realize that we could reach out so many people and fold them into the mix and we're not going to let up. Yeah, we'll be back at it.

Thank you guys so much for listening to The Watch. We'll talk to you next year. Next year, The Watch coming to you live from crowded, sweaty rooms with large amounts of strangers and mouth breathers. We cannot wait. Please, everyone, be well and stay well. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, Marnskees.