The Watch - 'The White Lotus' Premiere and Mailbag Questions

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

Chris and Andy discuss the premiere of HBO’s new show 'The White Lotus.' Then they answer some listener mailbag questions, including one about their top three favorite episodes of television (33:04). Hosts: Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. You can check out, but you can never leave. It's Andy Greenwald.

Oh, because on the first take, you said you could check in, but you could never leave. Which isn't surprising. I would do multiple texts. Yeah. Right. I get it. I'm making hotel jokes, Andy. That's a Hotel California reference for our younger listeners, which we must have like six

for seven younger listeners. But that was a Hotel California joke. We are actually talking about a different hotel. We're talking about the White Lotus, which is the fictional resort of Mike White's new show on HBO. That's what we're going to be discussing today. And then we have a mailbag section. We're recording this midweek, the previous week.

So this is airing on Monday. So forgive us if there's any breaking news. If it's really, really important, maybe we can do a topper and just be like, hey, guys. We haven't watched Black Widow. Sorry about that. We haven't seen Black Widow yet. That's correct.

We will. But we'll talk about it. Yeah. I'm sure there's some hijinks in the fine Marvel fashion. I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited to talk to you about all these topics. I feel like very, can I get a little email with you?

It's very moving to me when you send up the signal flare being like, could we have some reader questions? And the readers, this is how old I am, listener questions. And the listeners have questions. And they're all very thoughtful and good. And we're very grateful for them. Do you like it when the questions are like, when will Andy apologize for this take or that take?

Well, what's even better, I should say this too, in the spirit of emotion and friendship in this podcast, is you kind of look at them more than I do. So you shelter me. You protect me. Some might say you... I do a little bit of a filter. You cradle me.

Yeah. So this is news to me. The answer, as always, is absolutely not. I will die on bad take Hill. And I apologize for nothing. But thank you. Um, let's get into White Lotus, which is we've, we've got a few weeks now without a sort of prestige HBO Sunday night show, I guess since mayor of Easttown, which is not uncommon, but typically in, in the sort of, in the golden days of peak prestige TV, like you would probably have, what would happen is like you would just go one right into the other. Maybe there would be a week in between, but then there would be another HBO show, obviously. Stuff has been generally...

Sorry to jump in, but I think the other thing that we're missing is not just that HBO doesn't have the pipeline as smoothly as they would have liked due to COVID and scheduling and production delays. The competitors don't either. And there definitely was, over the past few years, we saw a rise in pretty exacting counter programming where if there was, you know, if Succession Season 3 had aired as it was intended to last year, FX or, or AMC might have lined up the return or the debut of something spicy for the following week or even the following day to kind of be like, hey, migratory birds come this way. And everybody's schedules are effed. So I like the idea that like a television network would be trying to win the morning edition of the next day's papers. It does feel kind of old school. We got to we got to take the Game of Thrones news cycle back. I don't think they talk like that anymore, but they do.

The rat-tat-tat style has fallen out of vogue. But I do think that was a part. Tell you, boy, Winchell, he's got to watch Walking Dead premiere on Sunday night. Do you want to do one more? Because rule of threes. Nobody's watching Mr. In-Between, but they got to do it. We're going to have headlines. We're going to have copy.

Because we're going to put it, Mr. In-Between, Mayor of East Town and Better Call Saul. There, see? We put a bow on it. I do think there was some thinking in that way. I think there was an erosion of that with Netflix's. We're just going to throw it all out there all the time strategy and just blanket things. And now, you know, we'll see how things shake out. There has been no strategy because there couldn't be.

So we got a little bit of, I mean, while we had this time off, obviously, we also had, we've had Loki, you know, which we talked about on Thursday show and the finale is this week. But so it's not like there hasn't been things going on. I just remarking specifically about that Sunday night, that Sunday night sort of slot. as you mentioned, the COVID has, and we're still feeling like, we're just really feeling the effects of the COVID slowdown, but also the COVID choice economy, I guess you could say. This show, White Lotus, is set in Hawaii. I assume it was shot in Hawaii. It comes to us from Mike White, who a lot of people may know, well, a lot of people may know him from Survivor, because he's on Survivor and Amazing Grace. A lot of people know him as the writer. of School of Rock, but is obviously a very important TV creator in his own right. He came up writing for Freaks and Geeks in Dawson's Creek. And really, I think the show that he is most well known for is enlightened, which is, I think, for some people, one of the most, like, sort of cronally

underrated TV shows of the last 10 to 15 years. You know, when he, I learned this from, from the Vulture profile on Jennifer Coolidge, when he, who's in White Lone, us. When Mike White pitched this show, like HBO had basically asked him for something that was COVID-friendly, something that would be somewhat easy to make with the production protocols that are in place. And fucking shout out to Mike White because this guy was like, man, COVID-friendly, huh? Have you guys thought about maybe sending me to Hawaii for a few months? It's so smart. I did not know that piece of information either until that,

that vulture piece. Cudos. Honestly, what an incredible... I mean, actually, on a number of levels. Yes, if ever given the chance to just write your own story and get to go to a place in the middle of COVID being like, sorry, have to go to Maui for six weeks. That is boss level and deserves all the respect. But I also think it's kind of exciting just as purely as a creative choice. You know, the other piece, the other thing that came out of that Vulture profile was that

he had been developing for a number of years, a different vehicle for Jennifer Coolidge, who we keep saying her name. You know her, even if you don't recognize her name. People might remember her from her amazing turns in the Christopher Guest movies like Best in Show or in the American Pie movie series.

And she's a beloved comedic actress. But he was developed, he's friendly with her and wanted to show other sides of her as a performer and was developing a series with her. And when he got the call, I mean, sometimes creativity needs guard. else and just do something else instead. And it does feel like this opened up something else.

Like it just in terms of not just obviously getting it into production, which is always the goal because it did scratch an itch on Casey Blois' schedule. But in its own right, it is a compelling and interesting use of the form. You know, I just think it's an interesting series for this moment. And as we get into talking about it, you'll hear us say why. I want to talk to you a lot about obviously what's happening in this show and the way it's told. But I thought maybe we could start if it's okay with you with a formatting question. So this is an hour-long dramedy.

It's about a group of people who are tourists at this luxury resort in Hawaii. It starts the first episode called Arrivals. It begins with this ensemble essentially arriving on a book. and Murray Bartlett, who you might remember from looking, is greeting them. He's the manager of the hotel. They immediately kind of set up and upstairs downstairs sort of dynamic where it's going to be these sort of pampered tourists

and the hardworking employees of the hotel intermingling, like viewing each other in different ways. It's a great cast, Jake Lacey, Alexander Diodario, Connie Britton, Steve Zahn, Natasha Rothwell, like a lot of really great funny people cool. obviously, Sydney Sweeney from Euphoria. And when this is sort of rolling out and as like it kind of goes on, I personally was struck by the fact that it's a limited series because it seems conceptually, now I think

you could return to this if you wanted to. But conceptually, like this is what long running TV shows are made of. You know, you could do a season with a group of guests. You could do you could follow those guests back to the real world. You could have the guests return for some reason. But I was actually struck by like most of the limited series that we come across are either big, big, big star vehicles because you can only get Kate Winslet for so long, or they're mysteries and you want to give people

like a real finite fever pitch of speculation about what's going to happen. How's the undoing going to end? How's Big Lola is going to end? How's Maryvuey's Down going to end? This is kind of like a real slice of life character study. There is a framing device that makes you think that you're going to get like a, you know, that suggests there's going to be a big mystery to it. But at least in the first episode, that's hardly even alluded to beyond the framing device. So I was curious what you thought about like the actual format of the show. Yeah, I think it's

very smart in a lot of ways. It's very 2021 smart because it is flexible. It's not just flexible because it was relatively COVID-friendly, focus on a small group of cast who are in, you know, who are basically in hotel rooms or poolside in a place that at the time when they filmed, I imagine, was doing fairly well with COVID. Like, it was very smart for that reason. But I think it's also smart in a kind of Duplas Brothers Room 104 kind of way. And for people who don't remember that show, we talked to Mark almost every season, I'd feel like for that show.

But that was kind of a cool experimental, very much in his wheelhouse anthology show where every episode was set in the same hotel room with different guests. And it allowed different filmmakers and actors to come, play. And that was creatively engaging for him, a nice feather in HBO's late night cap, and also cost effective because it was just one set. I think the exciting thing about a show like White Lotus is you have a creator's very specific sensibility. You have a beautiful and compelling location. I mean, we'll get into it. But I am very fondly disposed towards the show from jump because I also would like to go to a resort in Hawaii.

And I enjoy spending. I know it's controversial. I enjoy spending time in the fictional world of the show for that reason. But to your point, this could just be a limited series. You know, I, again, I think this was probably fairly cost effective. And it was a good production experience for people involved. And it's getting good reviews. It could be the end of it.

Or if it gets a lot of notice or a claim or it was a positive experience for everyone. Mike White has further ideas, Murray Bartlett comes back for season two with the hotel staff and a whole new group comes in. Right. And that is the kind of optionality that I think executives really want now, more than, you know, a prestige series that's only going to go seven episodes because you can only get the Oscar winner for that amount of time or the, the potentially ongoing, infinitely ongoing show that's going to by nature be set up for most of the year and you could lose the opportunity.

That said, the framing device here is canny. You know, it's just clever. It is, the show begins with a dead body. And so, Bing, scratch it off on your prestige TV bingo card. That's kind of how you may hook people. I was interested, just as a quick digression, that in the rave reviews of the show that I've read, it didn't get dinged for that interesting thing that happened seven days earlier. Right.

Which physical got reamed for doing. Maybe because this is a limited series in physical, at least by the impression it's giving us as a unlimited series, which doesn't actually exist. But you know what I mean. So it's a smart framing device. Unless you're SVU. That's unlimited. Everything Dick Wolf makes is unlimited. Yeah.

Unlimited wolf. Are we just like, do we need to give? give framing devices. We do we'd be to put them in some sort of penalty box. I was surprised by that. I mean, I think that there is a level of... Or are you just sort of like saying that's a double standard to say it's like

works here. I just thought it's interesting. I mean, I, it's easy for me to say because I am, as the listeners to this podcast will absolutely attest, out of the reviewing rat race. I am not watching everything.

Spoiler alert, shocker. When I was watching everything, I would often get either frustrated or just annoyed or overwhelmed. You get allergies to certain things. That's a better way of putting it. And sometimes I would write story like these things.

My boy sometimes gets allergies. My boy gets the sniffles on occasion. Got some seasonal stuff. Yeah. And so it strikes me as a very, very critic complaint. I don't, maybe I'm wrong. Listeners, let us know. are you seeing so many pilots that begin with a interesting thing five years earlier?

Right. And yes, it's become a crutch. It's become a cliche. It's become a way for shows that aren't necessarily skilled with exposition to be like, trust us, it's going to get good, but we're not going to show you the good part. But I was, I just noted that this didn't seem to bother anyone. But it's also maybe because critics got all, is it, six episodes of the White Lotus, and they seem to have burned through.

Yeah, we haven't. They sent out the entire thing. They sent out the entire thing. I want to pitch a show where like the framing device is the end of Fight Club, but the show is basically like how I met your mother.

Yes. So it's just like... Isn't that Kevin can go F himself? Well, you know what I mean? I want to have like, yeah, so it ends like when we open up, right? And the White House explodes. Yeah.

Cut to seven days earlier and a guy walks into a coffee shop and meets like... I mean, I like that because isn't that how life works? Chris, you know? We're getting there. One day you log on to Instagram,

the next thing you know you're storming the Capitol. I just mean life is a whirlwind. I was really pleasantly like brought into this because I think I immediately I've only been in Hawaii once. It's not like I'm like just skipping over there all the time. But I think

that there's been a lot of TV in the last year. And we've spent a lot of time talking about Mandalorian and Wanda Vision and Loki. And I'm not like comparing White Lotus to those things. I would even put Marevistown in there. I would put all sorts of things, even better call Saul, where you're watching the show and a lot of the work that you're doing is keeping up with the world construction and learning the rules of whatever the game is that

we're playing and, you know, assembling all of the different interpersonal relationships and what they might mean for some sort of end game. And just like a lot of like, it's very active viewership when you're watching a lot of TV these days. And the thing I'm I liked a lot about White Lotus is that it wasn't, you know, it's obviously a satire. It's got a lot of, you know, dark comedic elements. It's also a drama. It felt very, uh, recognizable. You know what I mean? Like, I think that just the act of people going to a hotel, there are some people working at the hotel. There are some people having some Kiwi at the hotel. Like, I was like, I know, I can, I can recognize this. I guess this. And, um, it's, it's strange.

that that's like that is such a rare occurrence on television. I like that you make that point and I agree with you. I picked up on that too. And I guess I want to begin by saying, you know, Mike White is a very, very good storyteller. His plotting, his pacing, his structure, like all the kind of statistical things. Like, he's got him, you know,

and he clearly worked very hard on this show. But I wonder, to a degree, the way that, if it was as simple as that Volcher article suggests, and I'm sure it wasn't as simple, but there's an element of truth to it that Casey Blois called Mike White and was like, hey, you got anything? Because we've got this window. I wonder if the opening of the door, that's just that the creative process maybe was more

straightforward than usual, I wonder if we're seeing that reflected. Speaking from the other part of my life, the current landscape of TV development is so, it's not just that it's crowded, it's so convoluted. because the shifting metrics of what people want, who wants it, who's buying it for what, what's it going to be, and what every single thing has to do is very, very opaque. I think certainly from a writer's perspective, but from what I've heard from buyers and sellers in the industry as well, in the executive levels, all the hoops that a project has to jump through just to be vetted as worthy, you know, is this noisy, is this zeitgeist?

Is this related to any IP? Is this going to go with the other things that people are watching? Is this going to be noticed? Like when you start having those conversations, when an idea is just a baby idea, it's going to either suffocate or mutate in ways that feel labored or feel complicated. And I think that what you just said really clarified actually, why I feel positively about this show, even when I found aspects of it

not entirely my jam, at least as of one episode in. Yeah, there's a real assuredness to the writing. I don't know if I would say modesty because that would imply that he's not trying to say a lot, and this is obviously a show that's going to look into ideas of privilege

and ideas of what actually constitutes a family and what what you owe members of your family versus what you owe humanity. But there's like a lot, it's an unbusy depiction of those things. And you know, this is not necessarily a one to one comparison, but

you take something like this new the gossip girl reboot, which has like some things to recommend about it. I'm not saying it doesn't. But it is so busy. It's like they had like this list of things that they were like, we must get this joke and this idea.

and this has to happen, and then we have to have this. And you're just like, this is, this is a show, but it's also like a to do list. You know, you guys wanted to like make sure all this crap. Like we have to have like a hashtag. And then we also have to have like a reference to like 14 different restaurants in New York. But this person also like has to have like this kind of relationship with this person. And you're just like, dog, I'm just trying to watch gossip girl.

You know what I mean? Like I'm trying to like like process what I'm seeing here. Whereas like the sort of the pacing and the tone of White Lotus is a lot more like glacial. It's just like we're floating in and like you're going to get to know these people and you're going to like some of them and you're going to dislike some of them and you're going to laugh at some of them and you're going to laugh with some of them. And that's kind of what's happening here. It's a COVID show. It's bubbled. It's bubbled off from the normal development process. from the new normal demands of what a show has to be, which increasingly isn't just a TV show.

I mean, you know, that sounds grandiose. I mean, we're saying this. It's July, like the broadcast networks have picked up their pilots. Like, old TV is still going. You know what I mean? And Dick Wolf's FBI Des Moines spinoff does not also need to be a brand and hashtag. It just is a show about FBI agents. solving stuff.

Yeah. But at the type of show we're talking about in the market, the corner of the marketplace we're talking about, I think that's, I think that, that's where we're at. So let's talk a little bit more specifically. I mean,

there's not a ton of plot to get through other than, you know, that you've got sort of a middle-aged couple with their two kids and their daughter's friend who arrive, a group of five. Then you've got a newlywed couple. And that's Connie Britton, the great Connie Britton from Frontin-Lights and Nashville.

she's playing kind of like a founder of a goop type company and he's her husband who's not as successful and they're two teenage kids and their teenage daughter's friend. Right. And then you've got a newlywed couple played by Jake Lacey and Alexandra Dadario. And then you've got a single woman played by Jennifer Coolidge who's come with her mother's ashes that she wants to scatter at some point during this vacation. So that's really the setup.

And then you've got the hotel staff, Marie Bartlett, Natasha Rothel, who I mentioned, who's on Insecure. And then you just get basically a lot of introductions, a lot of sort of getting to know you. There isn't like an inciting incident. There isn't like a crisis point. You can tell that there's tension.

You can tell there's going to be squabbles. A lot of the comedy and drama are derived from anybody who has spent much time on TripAdvisor message boards will recognize a lot of the sort of quibbles. And Jake Lacey plays this sort of spoiled brat, real estate guy who is really annoyed about the room he gets. And can't let it go. And can't let it go.

And that's essentially like the major like drama of the show so far. So I guess like what we get down to then is you mentioned your cup of tea. Like it's the tone. It's the Mike White tone, which I think is unquestionably like accomplished. I've personally enjoyed this more than some other stuff that I've seen of his. But what did you think? Yeah, I think that he's really, I mean, he's a really unique and compelling creator to my mind because I think that he has an ear for and interest in the kind of quotidian resentments and hopes and fears and disappointments that are immediately recognizable to anyone. You know, the Jake Lacey on his honeymoon being unable to let go of the fact that he thinks he was cheated.

that's a feeling. Alexander Dadaria by the pool getting just roasted and dragged by teens. And her uncomfortable navigation of that and watching the kind of flickering candle of hope in her eyes die is amazing. The angst of Steve Zahn, like wanting to be a good dad to a kid he doesn't understand or know how to say, I love you too. These are very well-observed things that are hugely valuable. They are the kind of observations of the minutia of existence that made enlightened so beloved. And I'm so grateful they're on my TV. And I'm excited about them.

Yeah. And I think he captures the fact that when typically, when people go on vacation, they actually do not take a vacation from themselves. Exactly. And what happens, I mean, I don't know about you, but when I go on vacation, a lot of the time, the conversations tend to be a little bit more vulnerable or deeper because there isn't the day-to-day stuff to talk about.

I'm sure when you go on vacation with your family, you have to talk about the kids all day because you're managing them or whatever. But I just mean like when you get to the end of the day, it's not like, what did you do today? Because you were with me all day. This isn't international football, Chris. I don't manage them.

I coach them up. You know what I mean? You're not from Porto Mancini. Every morning, I need. down, look them in the eyes, and tell them to be excellent. You know, set the cones out? Yeah. Okay.

But I interrupted. You were saying about the tone. No, I think that's a really, I think that's really well observed. And I think that, you know, there's just the most, to me, the most delicious moment in this pilot comes near the end where there's this health scare that Steve Zahn is experiencing. And again, like, that carried over from the mainland with him. You can't sort of shrug it off. and the collision between two completely different worldviews,

which is something that I can relate to in terms of whether news is going to be bad or good. Like, I can tell someone and mean it intellectually that the odds of an unknown turning out well are just as good as them turning out bad and probably better than them turning out catastrophic. But if I'm waiting on hold for a doctor who called me, I mean, I have all of it.

I have the plague. You're like picking who's going to give your uly. Yeah. Yes. And so that moment would it be me? Let's just keep it moving. When Connie Britain.

I mean, you could be a pallbearer. Yeah, you could. No, come on. I can't give a speech. Um, you could give some remarks. Yeah.

Are you worried I would go off script? Do you worried I would, I would, oh, are you worried that I would steal the spotlight? A little bit. Are you worried that it would be like the CR, the CR?

Yes. I'm worried about a C.R. CR had infiltration of my last, you know, my last hurrah, basically. Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay. You, remember, it's not just you taking the microphone. It's a movement. And that's when I begin to get a little antsy.

Anyway, it's that last scene where, you know, Connie Britton is like, it's going to be fine. And he's not like, it's just such a keen observation of a marriage and a dynamic. And I think that's great. I think what you get with Mike White is not just that his observational abilities and and interest in emotional storytelling that very much align with my tastes, you also get his very specific, very acidic comedy and worldview, which is it's demeaning to say it's cringe, although sometimes it does make me and potentially others cringe.

I think it's more complicated than that. But he does like to take things and run them all the way up to the point of discomfort and sometimes tip them a little bit past that. And it leads me to have, you know, you mentioned, my allergies, and I like checking this when we talk to each other and we talk about shows, especially pilot episodes. It did run afoul of my like weight of my trapped in this world thing at first, you know, like particularly because I was like, I just, he's so empathetic in a way about his characters,

but also maybe he hates all humans. Maybe there's something misanthropic here. Sometimes to me it tips more in that direction. And that's when I start to resist. that said, as with other shows we've watched recently, like physical, like I tamped myself down and I watched the episode and I'm going to keep watching other episodes. But, you know, it is worth noting that for some people, like Jennifer Coolidge's energy is a thing. It's a choice. It's big. Not in her performance, but in terms of it is, it can be destabilizing.

People have different tastes. Yeah. You might like Jennifer Coolidge. You might like Dennis Leary. You might like, you know what I mean? There's different kinds of vibes out there. Also, you should know that, like, Steve's on, like, you know, isn't just concerned about his medical condition. We are introduced to his character with a full-screen view of his bait and tackle or some extras or a stunt. Stunt balls.

Speaking of European League football. So, you know, you should know that going in. That's cool. But, like, again, there are these choices. And similarly, just to mention it, like, I love Murray Bartlett. I think he was one of the best actors on looking. I'm so glad to see him get more parts, especially when we can use his native accent.

But he, and he's killing it as this like harried, you know, control freak of a hotel manager. But in the early going, like sometimes that show feels different than the other shows, you know, and I think it will shake out into a hole. You mentioned the, does Mike White, hate people. I don't think he does, but I don't think he cares if people, if you like his characters that much. Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I think that that is, you know, for you're saying like, oh, it kind of like, am I trapped here with these people? I think that in each one of these characters,

I see a little bit of myself and I'm like, am I trapped here with myself? Am I trapped here with the parts of myself that I, well, it's the same thing for physical like you were saying. It's like, do I really want to be hanging out for 35 minutes with someone who thinks that they, the are a piece of shit. No. I mean, usually I do therapy Zoom. There is a part of me that thinks that about myself and I don't want to spend that much time with that person.

Do you know what I mean? So for that same thing, it's like I have tendencies where like I don't really get caught up on. I'm actually like way more like the room is the room. It's fine. Like I never really get freaked out about the room stuff unless like the air conditioning doesn't work. I usually really like a cold hotel room.

But like I wouldn't let it fuck me up for like days. on end. Like, I'd be able to go to dinner. I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing. But watching Jake Lacey lose it, I'm like, oh, my God, but there are things that I can't kind of keep in a box. And watching this person unravel because of that, I'm like, oh, God, is this going to be six weeks of this? Like, I guess what I'm, I agree with you. I think that's a very smart point. I think that maybe what I'm also responding to, and there's no way to get an answer to this other than watch the show, which we're going to do. But, where how you meet people how and when you meet people characters is a crucial decision for a

creator particularly for a limited series where they the assumption is and I don't think it's a false one is that you're going to go on a journey with them and the Jake Lacey character is a great conversation point for that idea because we meet him in the framing device in the flash forward and he seems like a bitter dick basically perhaps because his new bride is being corpses being wheeled onto the plane, although I think that's absolutely not the case. I think it's a misdirect. Then we see him behave throughout the episode,

and there's not much to recommend him then either. You know what I mean? So I'm curious what Mike White intends to do with this character and say with him, because he seems pretty transparently unlikeable, not just unlikable, but just like, kind of just what he is. It both ends of our story. And so those things give me a little bit of pause,

but not enough to stop watching, obviously. The tension of having, of making satire, if indeed you want to call this satire, is that you have to like push characters and push these people into being like stereotypes to some extent. They have to be bigger than, like they have to be so obnoxious

that they are being, they're obviously almost cartoonishly privileged or cartoonishly obnoxious or cartoonishly self-centered or whatever it is. And then the further you push it, the more you basically have to rely on the laugh because you're not going to have the relatability necessarily because it's going to, if you push and push and push, nobody's going to look at Jake Lacey and be like, that's, I can totally

relate to this guy because he's a fucking prick. So nobody's going to want to say that about themselves or whatever. Now, I actually am, I am trying to like, free my mind of relatability and likability and all these things. Like, I'm trying to move past it. I was listening to Soderberg on Marin and he's just like, it's a total lie that people can change in two hours, but movies pretend like they can. And I'm like, fuck, that's right. Why am I worried about this stuff? Why am I worried about like transformation and all these things?

So like, let's go into this. Let's go into this with open minds. Let's go into this with newly formed ideas about character. How about that? Wow. I love where you're at this summer. I love it. You've been to the White Lotus, I think.

You've had a, you've had a craniosacral treatment. Let's take a quick break and we're going to get to your mailback questions. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery.

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Go to your happy price. Price line. All right, we're back. Greenwald, we have some really fun questions this time. The listeners really came through. So shouts to everybody on Twitter and on Facebook who, who sent in some questions. And I'll say, Chris, I don't know if you agree with me,

but because of the nature of our travel and summertime and vacation, if we don't get to your question today, my guess is we will be revisiting this. Both because we'd want to answer your questions and for... I really, really want to hear a solo Greenwald mailbag one of these days. Wow. You did that once, right? I did.

I just did a solo pod, but it was the longest half hour of my life. It's legendary. Kaya and I still talk about it. Let's go with a big picture question first. This comes from Michael Mix. And he asks, I like this one a lot, do you think at this point in your lives you could ever see a new movie or show

and declare it your favorite of all time? Or does your favorite movie or show becomes set in stone when you were younger? I love that question. I think about that a lot. I think the answer. answer for me is no. Nothing can be my favorite again. And in fact, what I've noticed, and I'm as surprised about this as anyone, is that the whole notion of a favorite has fallen out of my brain

and language, both because as I've gotten older and have two children, many things have fallen out of my brain and language, just like pouring sand from a bucket at the beach. It's just not there anymore. But I think that profoundly, you know, and I know I'm not alone in this with our listeners and just people in the world, like Chris and I, this won't be a surprise. You know, one of the ways that we kind of set the parameters of ourselves and did self-building as younger people was through lists of stuff, you know, before you're a, I'll use eye statements. I won't implicate you in this, but I think you probably agree. Like before I had any sense of self or what. I could do in the world. I was like, I am a list of these books and authors, these records, these

movies. This is the taste that I'm building, but also the older person that I'm building and that I want to be. And you couple that with seeing things for the first time. You know, it's kind of incredible. Like the music that you hear when you're a teenager is always going to be your favorite because you don't, not only does it mirror the where you are emotionally in thoughts and feelings and everything new and exciting and matters. is amazing, but you also lack the context of how time works and how everything old is new again. And maybe you don't know that the thing you're falling in love with is indebted to the 20 years prior. And you don't want to think because you also want to think that you are a unique

newborn flower born at the perfect time of existence. All of that is to say, I find myself loving and appreciating things, I think, in a deeper way than I used to. But no, like my formative material has has happened. They have been formed. Yeah, I think that I'm trying to, I would completely agree with everything you say, like you're saying, I think people really conflate formative with best ever. Right. I was looking at the ringers 100 best episodes of the 21st century list that we did a couple of, I guess a year or so back. That was a great project. Yeah, it was awesome. And I was looking through that list of episodes and I was struck by how I didn't have any things that I would have suggested for the 90s. You know what I mean? Like there would have been, I'm sure, like,

a half a dozen things I might have been able to think of off the top. Like, there was like, maybe there was like a homicide episode or whatever. Like there was TV in the 90s that I liked quite a bit. But the shows that we talked about in that list were also the shows that I would say, or the episodes that I would say are the greatest of all time. And we have a question coming up about that. Precisely because that was when I think I was really like emerging, you know, like my, my TV passion was emergent. I think TV as an art form was really blossoming. And people could say that about what's happening to TV now. And people could say that about what was happening to TV when Norman Lee was making television in the 70s or something. Like,

it really does have to do with that sort of age, that age when you feel like you were coming with the most passion and then also like the art form is meeting that moment, which it kind of always is. You just have to have the right frame of mind or the right perspective. I think that's right. We recently had my soon to be 14 year old cousin came to visit and stay with the set here, which was great. And we had a wonderful time. But I felt very old when she asked me, she was talking about movies she'd seen and enjoyed. And I asked her if she'd seen certain directors, and she hadn't, we were talking about that. And then she was like, well, what are your, what's your favorite movie? And I, yeah, and I had no answer. I could, I no longer

had that facility. I didn't have a list. I couldn't say, well, these are the three or four. My mind first went totally blank and then just started pulling a weird melange of like, you know, noir movies I fell in love with on Criterion in the last six months. And, like pale flower. Have you seen that? Yeah. Pale Flower. Great. And Muppets take Manhattan or whatever when I was a kid or Rushmore or whatever. You know, I just, out of the heat of the moment, when you have a 14-year-old, you should be a 14-year-old staring daggers at you wanting an answer, I was like,

oh, it's kind of great to just love. I know this sounds so weak and basic, but like to be like, I love movies. I love TV. And I love loving things, you know. But that is a different response than I think either of us would have had even 10 years ago. Yeah. I think the most recent thing, like the most recent movie that I would say is like

in contention for my favorite movie would be like Inglorious Bastards. But even in Glorious Bastards, if I put it in, if I say like, okay, like just to like assemble like a list in my head. It's like,

let's say it's like Jaws, Goodfellas, uh, heat and like, I don't know, his girl Friday and, and Inglorious Bastards. It's like,

Inglorious Bastards doesn't quite, feel as significant as those movies to me. But like, I also think in glorious bastards, my, in some ways is, I don't know, I, it's better than some of those movies. It's so weird. It's just like, I just saw in glorious bastards like at a much later point in my life. And I've thought about it and rewatch it and all these things. But it's hard to say, like, is it better than Jaws? Like, I don't know. When you watch it is different. And what it did to you is different. But as people who listen to this podcast know, like, I think I speak for both of us, like, Liburo, Lonesome Dove.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fleabag season two, certainly for me, or Mad Men. You know, like, these are as important to me just as anything and just how much we loved them. Like, in that, in that pure fandom that you can still access sometimes when something just makes you happy and excited, like, that's still there. Yeah. But the list making has gone.

Staying on the listmaking topic. Adam Blake asks, what are the top three single episodes of TV each of you have ever seen? Impossible. Rules are you can't pick any more than one episode from a series. And it can't include Breyer Patch Chiraph debut episode. Thanks. I mean, you know, in many ways, I think episodes 9 and 10 were, you know, closer to the vision that I wanted to put out there. Those are, that was that was a group two of mine.

No prob, yeah. Impossible question. How dare you? Especially after what we just said. It changes every single day. I tried to pick things that I felt like maybe spanned a little bit of a, ran a little bit of a gamut of kinds of TV. Okay. You want to go first?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, in no particular order, I have the Cajun country episode of No Reservations, Anthony Bourdain's travel show, where he goes into sort of Baton Rouge and Beyond to, or just into Cajun country in Louisiana, and goes to a series of cookouts,

including sort of a night into the next day hog, like whole hog cook cookout. uh, David Simon from the TV creator is with him for some of it, but, uh, is the most sensual and romantic and life affirming hour of TV that I think I've ever seen. And we've talked before about like still kind of like,

unsteady ground when it comes to revisiting, uh, but, uh, you know, and I, I'd like to talk about the, the Morgan Neville movie at some point when we're,

we're like kind of feeling it. But, um, that is my favorite Bordane episode and that is like sort of like my favorite episode of like non-scripted TV and then the other two that I have are Box Cutter which is like a perfect Breaking Bad episode

and Breaking Bad is one of my favorite shows and I just I think I've revisited box cutter a lot and thought about a lot about how it's put together and just for the hell of it because it's really high up there looking at our list fantasy reminded me of this because he wrote about it Eastbound and Downs first episode.

Oh my God. Yeah, so great. I think that we should revisit East Ben and Down just generally. Yeah. Because it's better than most things. Yeah. It's just, it is so, it's really special. It still, you know, I think it holds up. It just purely makes me laugh.

I'm so glad you put that in there. I think this is impossible. I can't, I do not stand by my own answers. I'm sorry. Like, I think that there's probably a Bordain, maybe the Houston one, you know, that just fills you with a kind of, yeah, like just joy and connection that is very unique to that show. I'm glad you mentioned the documentary. I still can't hang.

I can't do it. I can't rewatch the show yet, you know, which sounds weird. I barely knew him, but it's too much. So the first one, the only one that was kind of easy for me was episode 29 of Twin Peaks, which is what we thought was the series finale. Okay. from 1991. And people have heard me talk before about how Twin Peaks was the most important show of my life and it was and is.

The more I thought about it, the more I thought that it's not the pilot, which is brilliant filmmaking that did it, though. It was the finale, which is maligned in some quarters, but really is, I mean, Lynch came back to direct the last hour. And it is totally insane and totally disturbing. And what I can't what would influence me more than anything else wasn't just the sort of like totally gaga creativity. It was that it ended on the most painful cliffhanger imaginable. And the lessons that taught me about serialized storytelling and world building and disappointment, I still am not entirely over, even though we got that incredible season three that that

basically addressed it, you know? I just, I've never stopped thinking about that episode and where I, was when I watched it and how it made me feel. That's a lot like what we were saying with the movies, where it's like you just are not going to really ever get over certain movies that happen at a certain point in your life. Exactly. Yeah, seeing that at 14 and being like, I'm sorry, what?

What now? The other, I was holding a second slot for prestige TV that we've covered and thought about it and I kind of wanted to be, you know, I'm known as the bad boy of prestige TV. So I wanted to like confound expectations. and pick an underseen or misremembered gem. And I was going through, but even then I was sort of going through the crates of like Breaking Bad episodes,

which there were many that were brilliant, especially some of those that run at the end, Osamandias and Granite State. I was thinking about Sopranos episodes, trying to remember individual episodes of the Americans that maybe I thought were elevated. I almost settled on two. One was, I know this is cheating to do this,

but I'm sorry. the constant from lost or just like that was the episode that i believe we made the best of the century yeah or just like the season finale where you saw the Egyptian statue's feet for the first time again just like everyone not everyone but everyone that i was talking to or the internet like seeing something like that together was so indelible and exciting and what the fucking and just awesome constant is just a marvel and i do think still our best example of the type of genre. It's not a franchise,

but I would call it franchise storytelling that we're all looking for it because what is the North Star for all of the stuff we talk about, whether it's Disney, plus TV shows or Star Wars movies or Game of Thrones spin-offs. We're all looking for like the Han Leia moment, right?

Like we're all trying to get that back. We're trying to find a perfect balance of head and heart and and, you know, redidding. And the constant somehow made it look possible with time travel. It was a love story, but it was also a total head fuck. So I tried to do the wire,

but as David Simon always says, like these are just chapters in a book. Sure. So you kind of can't maybe you pull. Yeah, there are amazing episodes. Like the wire has like maybe the highest floor of any show ever, but the ceiling is like with, with, you know, a couple of exceptions.

Like, and they're usually the gut punch penultimate episodes of seasons that Pelicanos would come and just, you know, put us all in vacants. Like, they, they kind of, like, kept it real steady. Like, they never really indulged in the, like, gasp moment other than some obvious exceptions for show. It's spoiled. In episode nine's, um, though, I mean, no show has ever left me feeling like my relationship

to that show left me feeling nothing, you know, cumulatively after watching a season or being in the midst of a season. You haven't picked a second episode yet, have you? No, I'm going to do the cliche. I'm going to do the suitcase. Okay. You know, we did a whole podcast about the suitcase, the Mad Men episode. that is often cited as the very best one. I just as someone who dreams of watching more TV

that can tell beautiful emotional character stories and also be funny and everything. And having that episode is just a marvel to me. And rewatching it has only made me more impressed by it. And also I think of it as the crowning exemplar of cumulative, serialized, multiple season television storytelling, because every single thing in it that happens in this dance, and they do dance at one point between Peggy and Don,

hits different because it's happening later in the show's run. Everything was building to that in a way that you just can't equate in other mediums. Last thing, also totally cheating, because I have not had time to re-watch this episode since I decided I was going to name it. But I was trying to think of like, what is the kind of comedy feeling that I just miss and I'm always chasing. And it's not like the special two-part episode of family ties, you know, where Alex does speed or whatever. And it's, it felt too soon to be like, oh, Parks and Rec or the 30 Rock where I laughed the most, like when Liz turns into the Joker. It wasn't that. So I picked the Bar Wars episode of Cheers. Okay. I don't even know if it holds up. Classic material. Yeah.

But Cheers just as an ensemble. And then one thing I didn't even remember is that Bar Wars and there were multiple Bar Wars episodes, it's when the Cheers gang gets involved in a prank war with Gary's old town, Old Town Tavern, the rival bar. In my mind, there was like one of these every year. It was just like, let's go back to the well. And then I was looking into it. And Bar Wars is the 23rd episode of season six. I mean, that is how elite Cheers was, that it was just cranking at hit after hit. But that feeling that you can only get from an ensemble comedy on TV where it's like, these are my friends, I know. And it feels like, it feels like biblical, where it's like, Each character is so finely and sharply drawn,

you know how they will behave in a situation, and oh my God, here's the best possible situation for them to be in. All right, we're going to do two more. Here's one from John David Drake. Last week, Netflix canceled, this would probably be two weeks ago by now. Last week, Netflix canceled a batch of their traditional multi-cam style sitcoms,

including shows with bigger names like Jamie Fox and Kevin James. I believe the Kevin James show is called The Crew. And then, is this a sign that Netflix is getting out of the original sitcom game? is it hard for Netflix to launch successful, quote-unquote, all audience comedies? They're certainly throwing a lot of money and top talent at it. I thought this was a pretty interesting question. You know, I mean, I guess we haven't really talked very much about, I mean, we reference Netflix as Netflix is becoming TV, and there's just like a whole world of Netflix shows on

there. And, you know, I still, there's certainly stuff that I'm checking out on Netflix, but we haven't really did a state of Netflix thing because it's something that's so hard to throw your arms around. I think that for this thing in particular, you know, one thing you can't say about Netflix is that they're sentimental. So if whatever their proprietary data is that is telling them that a show is not working for whatever variety of reasons, whether it's about a cost effectiveness or whether it's just not reaching an audience or it's not reaching the audience it needs to reach to validate what they're spending on or what have you, I just do feel like when you read about that place, like if, if. If the Kevin James show isn't working, like they have a development deal with Kevin James,

maybe they'll do another show with Kevin James, but this one they got rid of. If Kenya Barris wants out of his deal, they figure it out. You know what I mean? Like it's kind of cut and dry. There's not a lot of like, you know, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of sentiment over there,

which I think makes, you know, sometimes it's difficult to develop a relationship with certain shows if there's just like a three-season cap on everything and they don't, you know, whether you want to say that's because they, they think that that is like the lifespan of a show or whether they just don't want to renegotiate contracts with people after three seasons of success. I really, I couldn't say. As far as the multi-cam shows go specifically, the one thing that Netflix hasn't really been

able to do, and Andy and I opened this show talking about Sunday nights on HBO and the tradition that they have there is they do not have a merchandising window. Like they have a home page and they have a lot of algorithmic, like, recommended if you like. And I saw this trailer started playing automatically when I opened up the app or whatever. Like, there is definitely ways in which they put things in front of people. And in some ways, those things are way more effective than anything network TV can do. But what network TV does do for their sitcoms is they bunch them with a lot of sitcoms. And they can create or they used to be able to create a multi-hour experience of a couple

of different shows so that you got the feeling that it was Thursday night on NBC or it was Friday at an NBC. Now, those may be retro ideas, but I don't think that they're completely out of fashion because, look, we're talking about something that's like, what, 24 to 30 minutes long. It's got a very traditional structure. Like, people probably don't, they like to have like 50 of them, but they might not be like, it's the new, the new episode of this Jamie Fox sitcom is up. I can't wait to watch. It's more like, they want to have that experience of like turning on the TV or turning on Netflix and having several of those things. And that's how Netflix does it. But I don't necessarily think that multi-camp sitcoms, unless they're, like, really pushing boundaries are something that stand on their own. Do you know what I

mean? I think it's a great observation. And I think that there might be, and I don't profess to have any insider knowledge as to what their comedy strategy is, or if it exists, and what the general, internal feeling about the response rates or click-throughs of multi-game sitcoms are. But I think that it's similar to how they've tried and then basically given up on late night as well. You know, it's just there's certain species of shows that don't survive out of their element, you know, and I think that you've really hit the nail in the head in terms of it's just not experiential. It's not, you don't go to Netflix to see that, oh, Chelsea's dropped a new episode today at 4 p.m. That's just, and then it'll be another one tomorrow. It just wasn't the way people

used the service. And I wonder if there's an element of that at play here as well. I think the bigger point to make and one that we've sort of been talking about and nibbling about in conversationally on the margins is that I still am not entirely sure if people are aware that Netflix today is in no way the company Netflix was five years ago or 10 years ago from a development and even just personnel or goal and what their goals are. It's just a it's a fundamentally different company. And one of the things that we talked about at the time that seemed very smart about what Netflix was doing four or five years ago was that they were programming not just for the American consumer. They were actively programming for the town,

which is different. You know, they had a, at the end of every year, they had a very nice blend of nailed bits and flora's lavas and queer eyes, all of which are very well-made examples of those types of shows and very good. But they also had Glows, Masters of Nun, Mind Hunter to put on for your consideration billboards to say, like, we work with David Fincher. You know, we, these are types of stories that we're going to tell, we're going to have, we're going to play to the, this is a cliche, but people think this way, to the coastal elite cities as well as to the heartland or whatever. That was part of the strategy. Cindy Holland, who is instrumental in that strategy, is no longer there. Bella Bajaria is sort of taken over and consolidated the programming.

And I think that their goals are just fundamentally different, you know, the goals are global. So that not just we watch Lupin here, but whatever, the American Leupanis is also able to play all around the world. Multicam American family sitcoms probably don't hit that bar. I think it's also worth noting, Bella Bajaria was at UTV Universal before she went to Netflix, but then she was the one who took over and built that unscripted department. And I think that you hear it and people talk about it,

but I still don't know if people fully understand the margin to which unscripted is cheaper than scripted. I mean, it is exponential. It is outrageous how much cheaper it is, even a multi-cam sitcom. So, and it's scalable, right? And it's a brand you can sell around the world. Like, that is part of the focus. So all of this is to say, it's not just that we might not get more Kevin James sitcoms. I don't think we're going to get, we're certainly not going to get more glow, which is still a crime.

We're not going to get more Mind Hunter. Maybe we will because of Fincher was going to make another movie for them and they can work something out. But I don't see why that makes sense for them anymore. They're not in the, we need to attract a certain eyeball game. And maybe they, and maybe down the line, they change their. mind. You know, I mean, like, it's like these things, I think Netflix is here to stay. So it could be that down the line, they decide that they do want to get back into scripted dramas. I mean, they might not have Ozark in two years and be like, you know what? We need. It's like, that's a thing that

we need. Yeah. I agree. I was just thinking, you know, this is not necessarily this question, but it was something that I was noticing that when I was doing, I was doing the flip, I was like, we got to find something. And I was flipping around and I opened up Netflix. And not only had I not watched very much recently at all, but I was looking at the, you know, watch again or continue watching. And my year in Netflix was interesting compared to past years to me. I mean, it was Queens Gambit, obviously. By the way, there is no my year in Netflix box that I know of. This is just me.

You know you can download your viewing history, though. Oh, that's terrifying. But it was Queens Gambit, which I think of as we all do as a triumph. But as Scott Frank, the creator told us, was an outlier. There was one person there. It was like, I believe in you doing. this, but you got to do it quietly in Germany for cheap. And then it became a global sensation.

Bo Burnham's Inside, which we never talked about, but I finally checked out, which is awesome. And also what Netflix can do because someone else made it and was like, here, you want to buy this? Netflix was like, yes, that works. Call My Agent New Season, which was a real bummer compared to the previous seasons. But again, that's what they do. Here's a French show. It hit, it clicked.

People like it all the way around the world. And High on the Hog, which is the food show about. the Black American diaspora and food ways, and it's really outstanding. Maybe we'll have a time or a place to talk more about it specifically. But that's something Netflix does really well, too. But in terms of traditional, like, there's a reason why we went from Marri of Easttown to White Lotus, and we're, you know, we stay grinding on Marvel Corner, too, because they're pumping those shows out and Netflix is not in those businesses right now. Right. Now, I'm looking at my continue watching, and much like my Spotify algorithm, somewhat compromised by myself giving another.

Wow. Are you going to drag her? No, I'm not. I'm just like, I mean, like, I think that like I'll fall asleep and and some some sex life or love is blind gets watched or whatever. And I'm just like, I don't, I did this wasn't part of my, I want the ones and zeros to be real clean. You know what I mean? Yeah. Let's do one more question. We're going to save a bunch of these. I think Andy and I will probably return to them over the course of the summer, like he said. Last question comes from, this is, this is probably like the most serious one we've got. Jordan Wilhelmie asks,

how embarrassed would Andy be if he lost a CR on an episode of Top Chef Amateurs? And is that why we haven't heard anything about seeing you both on this first season? Wow. First of all, let me say that Chris is my best friend and I support him. And my,

you also are incredibly supportive of my culinary exploits. His triumph is my triumph. Yeah, my emotional sous chef. As he, were he to defeat me, you know, with some sort of miso-based marinade, I would Mr. Miyagi nod, you know, as the student has become the teacher.

I also think, and this is based on, you know, a quarter century of friendship, that one of the way, we're different in a number of ways, but one of the ways we are different is that Chris is a red light player. And I crumble often, I think, when the hot spotlights click on. And I think that it's possible,

that on a soundstage with Gregory and Tiffany Derry and Gail, like I would not perform. I can admit that. You know, I, again, I use the same Zoom window for therapy, so this is safe feeling. But as evidence, we don't need to get into it, but there was a social event that Chris and I attended recently where a football was produced.

And, you know, I saw a side of my guy that I rarely see. And it's the side that says, take this ball and deliver it into the bris-jewish Jalen Hertz emerged. Yeah. And I will, you just put the ball up and I'll come down with it as I am cannonballing into the swimming pool. And by God, you know, he did it. He did it.

Like, we joke about Chris's exploits, you know, at backstop and Little League and as a lifeguard. But he may pay for it the next day, but Chris leaves it all out on the floor. And so, well, I would want to win in a cooking competition. I would not be surprised. I think that the issue for me would be the components of the dish. First of all, thank you so much for seeing me. I feel seen. I feel like I do a lot of things wrong,

but I do enjoy like pressure situations. It's amazing, really. When they're like, talk about Game of Thrones now, I'm like, sure. Maybe that's because I also don't mind being wrong. So that being said, I think I would be going into this cook with just like nothing to lose. Nobody would expect me to be... I'm the guy who almost set his house on fire.

I'm the guy who makes wet chicken. I'm the guy who, you know, still can't understand maranades. You know what I mean? Now, I've gotten secretly somewhat proficient in certain things. You know what I mean? I love it.

I started to develop my own techniques, but what I can't do, Andy, is I still haven't really mastered being responsible for multiple components of a meal. Yeah. And when you see chefs and they are a, assembling like their plates and like, you know, we, we kind of critiqued on a little bit for missing

plates and top chef. I'm like, if I made one plate, I would be like, I should be working at LaBernadanne. You know what I mean? Like, if I was able to get like three things on one plate within a certain time limit, that would be incredible. If I have to make four, five, 10, 12 servings, forget it, forget it. You guys can all have a chicken breast. Some of them will be done. And I'm going to roast some broccoli and we're going to see where we wind up. But that's just a winning attitude. You know what I mean? Like there's an innate confidence in a born athlete and board competitor.

Do you think you would just be like, I want to pay tribute to my story? I got in my head when you started saying the question. Like this is a fundamental difference. This is a fictional idea. And I'm already sweating bullets. And I'm not sure if I'm going to sleep tonight. So I think we have our answer. Okay.

We'll end it there. Andy, thank you so much for joining me. We'll be back later this week to talk about the finale of Loki and a couple of other things. Thank you guys so much for listening to The Watch. Thank you so much for sending in these questions. Thanks to Isaiah Blakely for producing today. Kaya on vacation. We drove her to it, frankly.

She deserves it. Yeah, Gai is the White Lotus. God bless. Talk to you guys later. Talk to you guys later.