The Watch - ‘Too Old to Die Young,’ ‘Euphoria,’ and a Check-in With Andy | The Watch

Episode Date: June 18, 2019

Andy calls in from New Mexico to give an update on ‘Briarpatch’ and brings a special guest with him (2:51). If you’re ready to devote 13 hours of your life to watch ‘Too Old to Die Young,’ you might be rewarded (9:27). HBO’s new teen drama ‘Euphoria’ has just enough in it to keep us compelled (40:40). Plus: ‘Big Little Lies,’ S2E2 (32:59). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Andy Greenwald, Adam Nayman, and Micah Peters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Just Crack an Egg. You want to talk about great production value? How about a legit, hot, fluffy breakfast scramble that's packed with all your favorite ingredients? It's called Just Crack an Egg, and all you have to do is add a fresh egg over their hearty ingredients, then stir microwave and enjoy any day of the week. It takes less than two minutes to make, find all seven varieties of Just Crack an Egg in the Egg aisle. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal is proud to serve over 8 million members and is open to active. duty military, the DOD veterans, and their family members receive a lifetime of membership benefits

like credit card APR average that is 4% lower than the industry's member-only exclusive rates and more. Visit NavyFederal.org slash watch for more information. Call 1-888-848-842-6328 or download. The Navy Federal Credit Union app today message and data rates may apply. Visit NavyFederal.org for more information. Hey guys, welcome to The Watch. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Pack Show today. I talked with a little unknown talent coming up in the television business named Andy Greenwald, live from the set of Briar Patch in New Mexico.

And we had a special appearance from Rosario Dawson. Although I don't know that Rosario Dawson necessarily knew that she was on a podcast or what this podcast was. But it was quite a life accomplishment just the same just to have her on the pod. So Andy and Rosario Dawson to start off live from New Mexico talking about the first days of shooting Breyer Patch. That was awesome. Then I had Adam Neiman come on, and Adam and I talked about the first three episodes of Tool

to Die Young, the new show on Amazon from Nicholas Winding Refin, starring Miles Teller. It is a lot. It is a real, real, real tough proposition. I think it's rewarding. It's not a bit, although sometimes I don't know where the bit stops and the reel comes in. But I really, really am obsessed with this show right now.

Not only because of what it is, which is basically a psychedelic L.A. underworld story, but it's also, it's like the questions it's asking of viewers. How patient are you? Do you find this boring? Is boring always a bad thing, et cetera? So really interesting conversation with Adam about artistic intention and otorism and all those kinds of things. Adam's such a great film writer. It's always great to have him on the while.

watch. I was then joined by Kyah McMullen. Two for two for Kaya to talk quickly about Big Little Lies, episode two. And then finally, I talked to Micah Peters about the premiere episode of Euphoria on HBO. So a packed show. Something for everybody. Let's get into the watch. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the rigor.com. And joining me from an undisclosed

location in New Mexico. He will fix it in post. It's Andy Greenwald! My friend, I'm standing. It's 90 degrees. I'm in a parking lot. There's equipment everywhere. We are in a neighborhood that is affectionately known

as the war zone. And my assistant here, who is lovely, who listened to the podcast, was responding to emails, crouched, kind of. Well, the rest of us were, that's my day. How are you guys doing?

We're killing it, man. It's over. It's June gloom. Anthony Davis is a Laker. You didn't get a weekend. I did not get a weekend because I spent all weekend watching Too Old to Die Young, which is possibly the least Andy show I've ever seen in my life. So it's almost a shame you're not here. I know. And then, yeah, I had NBA stuff on Saturday.

I went to a concert last night at the Walt Disney Concert Hall. Wow. Please. Can I bring someone onto our podcast for the first time? Oh, sure. Who does? Rosario, I'm recording a podcast right now. Yes. Hey, what's up, Rosario? How are we doing on our first day of set?

How are you feeling? How are you feeling? I feel great. You're really good at acting. Oh, yeah, I can pretend really well. Rosario, how is Andy's show running? Well, he's wearing running shoes, so I think he's ready. He's really taking this seriously.

I got special shoes for production. They match his headphones. Yeah. They really do. I'm not even kidding, sneakers. I think Chris is curious about my like demeanor. My master. Yeah, he's grinning all the time.

He doesn't get it. You're supposed to be super cool in Hollywood. And all he does is keep brinning and say how happy he is. Like, you're doing this all wrong. I know, I thought I would come in here with like a very different attitude, you know, and that like impress everyone to be stern. But you guys all laugh at me because I turn red all the time. Yeah, you got to go full metal jacket, Andy.

When are you going to start shouting out commands? Season two. Yeah. Okay. I can't demand it to think of you. I'm going to leave Rosario. Thank you. for joining us.

I'll tell your publicist later. So you're just enjoying a Gatorade, but this is what happens when you make a show with that. I need to ask you the question America wants to know, the answer to. Yeah. What flavor of Gatorade does Rosario Dawson prefer? I look like a light lavender color. I feel like it's one that's not in circulation. Do you know what I mean?

I feel like it's just a celebrity Gatorade. Only high-key influencers get this lavender. Okay. How's life been in New Mexico so far? Things are good. things are very good. This is the first morning so we've been at this since seven and it's just kind of amazing

because you know you've worked like crazy all winter and then all of a sudden we're just back here and Rosario and Eddie are back in character sitting across from each other and this first scene we're doing which is we're doing a scene from episode three start the day because we're block shooting two and three so it's a little bit out of order

and you know it's good it's good I would say the main difference between quote-unquote show running a pilot and a series is that on the pilot, just along for the ride. It's just like a spectator sport. It's total pleasure. And then for pilot, I'm sitting here watching them act and beat geniuses. And in the back of my mind, I'm remembering that I have writer drafts of the scripts for eight and nine in my bag,

and I have to write 10. But otherwise, otherwise great. And also, over the weekend, my family came and they, for Father's Day, they paid a duchess. They picked out a hat for you. Is it like a son hat or is it like a Philly's hat? It's like a Terrence Malick hat. Cool. Cool. New Mexico hasn't changed you at all.

For the record, they did not buy me the hat for Father's Day because he getting to go make a show is my Father's Day President. They picked it out. So have you gotten a chance to watch anything while you've been down there or have you just been work, work, work, work, work. I've just been working. I've just been working. The days are so long that the thought of going back to the hotel, I'm not moving into a house for couple weeks. And just, you know, curling up with a little camille tea and the latest episode of Chernobyl is not, not it. You know what I mean? I don't know. Do you get, like, an hour for lunch?

Yeah, get an hour. So you could watch half of one episode of Toil to Die Young. Give me your pitch for why I would do this other than it'll be really funny for me to react. No, honestly, like this, I'm not about to talk to Adam Neiman about this. It's just, it's not for you, man. It's just like, I don't think I wouldn't subject you to it. I wouldn't expect you to like it. I wouldn't expect you to to find it, you know, redeeming in any way morally or intellectually, artistically, but it speaks to me on a subtutaneous level. I don't know what to tell you. How would you describe the rapport you have with a certain type of millennial male actor?

Because everyone remembers your famous Twitter beef with Antelilogh. And now, the God M. Teller is RTing you into the feed, into the main feed. Yeah, yeah. Miles Teller, I got the retweet from Miles Teller this weekend, which is great. because I've always been a big supporter. I have nothing but respect for my president. You know, he's been doing a great job. And I made an NBA joke about how the NBA was cutting into my tool to die young time.

And MT retweeted it, the MTRT. You got the impressive MTRT. So basically our lives are going great. Yeah. Is a takeaway. But thank you for letting me jump back on. Thank you for having Rosario Dawson jump on. That was nice for him.

I'm going to grab what I can grab until the cast. publicists realize this is just a long con to boost our podcast, which by the way, is going great. I a lot of respect to Kaya for seeing the corner open to her and taking it with the savagery of Marlowe Stanfield. I think that's fantastic. Yeah. And the podcast is being well listened to by the crew, all of whom who've told me the last

few episodes were great. They've said it so many times that I'm beginning to get a little itchy. I'm going to be honest with you. Well, look, Miles is only going to keep your seat warm for so long. and then we'll have to have open auditions. Andy, obviously you'll be back probably at the end of summer. We'll have you on, you know, you'll call in intermittently. Until then, man, good luck today, good luck this week.

We can't wait to see what you make. Thank you, buddy. Miss everybody. Mr. Beranski's, thanks for letting me do this. Okay, now I am joined by my buddy Adam Neiman. Adam, you can read his amazing film criticism and film essays on the rigor.com, among other places. He has a wonderful book.

you can purchase wherever you get books about the Cohen brothers. Adam, what's the, this, that movie really tied the room together? The book really ties the film together. The book really ties the film together. I'm sorry for forgetting that. So that's Adam Neiman's book on the Coen Brothers.

He's been on before. We love having him on. And I'm really excited to talk to him today. Not only is Adam from Toronto and is currently probably 94% pure champagne as he watches the Raptors parade. But Adam and I went on a little journey together, even though he was in Canada and I was in Los Angeles this weekend. We both

watched the first three episodes of Nicholas Winding Refund's New Amazon Thing. And I specify thing because I'm not quite sure whether you want to call it a movie or a TV show or a performance art piece. It's called Too Old to Die Young and it stars Miles Teller, among other people. And it is essentially, I guess you could call it a Los Angeles noir, but that would only be the most surface description of what you'll find there. Now, I don't know if anybody, I hope people got a chance to watch some of it. Adam and I are going to talk about stuff that happens in the first three episodes, but really I want to have like a larger conversation with Adam about the intentions and the accomplishments or failures of this show because it is one of the most confounding and I think in some ways courageous but in some ways foolhardy and in some ways inspiring and in some ways boring things I've seen in a really long time. I described it to a friend of mine this weekend as being like when Miles Davis would turn his back on the audience and play a solo, except you're not sure if Miles Davis is actually good at jazz.

If that was, if you can imagine that. So let me just set it up. I guess, you know, it's basically a show about a cop play by Miles Teller who gets involved with the underworld as a both investigator and a participant. and there's a plotline about a cartel, there's a plot line about teller. John Hawks shows up as a vigilante at one point in the first three episodes. Each episode is almost a distinct entity from itself.

There are plot lines that carry over, but honestly, they almost seem to exist separate from themselves. And I think that was Wendon's intention. He said he didn't particularly care if people watch them in order. He thinks that they could be watched separately or in different orders. I agree with him. It actually, you know, a lot of people are always asking,

like, oh, do I have to watch the first season of this to catch up? In this case, I don't even know what you have to watch. I think that you will find pretty quickly when you start watching, this is a show told in a completely different visual language than most other television. And Adam, the first thing I thought of when I was watching this, and I'm sure this might sound sacrilegious to you, was Twin Peaks the Return. Yeah, I mean, I thought of it, too. one of the filmmakers who,

Wendy Gresson has been chasing for a long time, a bit like, you know, that image of like a big, goofy golden retriever chasing the car, you know, he's not going to know what he does who attaches him.

You know, there's Lynch, there's Tarantino, there's Kubrick, a lot of very, like, very alpha male, muscular, I guess you'd call them

kind of bro-tur filmmakers, but Ressen loves. I mean, this is a guy who dedicated one film to Alejandro Yodorowski. Yeah. You know,

there's the insane creator of films like El Topo in the Holy Mountain. I mean, what you were saying, because I hadn't heard you say this yet when we were messaging, but the thing about Miles Davis is back to the audience, not knowing that he's good at jazz is hilarious. Because I think with reference, it can be hard to tell sometimes, especially for me, I'm quite validly not a fan. Like, if he's a great filmmaker or a terrible filmmaker, or if those two things are indivisible,

you know? Yeah. It's really important to mention, I think, and you alluded to, to me the whole scene by the world back in May at Cann

when he presented the fourth and fifth episodes as one two hour and 20, 20 minute movie like

at the Cannes Festival is the kind of context for filmmaker like Linda Reddressen because he's

a hard-tore art filmmaker, you know, he just happens to intersect with with genre.

I don't know, like the gentrification of genre cinema or this art house grindhouse overlap, but this is a big

thing that's happened in the last 10 years. You see it with filmmakers like German Deltoro winning an Oscar or Bong Jo, certainly Tarantino and David Lynch are like the elder state citizen of this.

And Ruffin is, is a contender. He's like a heavyweight contender in this group. So I would love the idea that there's someone somewhere who accidentally turned this on because they have an Amazon Prime membership. You know? Yeah. They just buy stuff from Amazon, and then this is the first thing that came up on their Amazon feed one day, and they're watching it.

And it's a challenging, borderline avant-gynableness. piece to work. And I just love the idea of someone's doubling on this and watching it because I don't think never seen anything like it. Right. And now, so you mentioned Reffen's interest in genre. In some ways, I think he's ultimately a provocateur who happens to make genre art. He happens to make things like drive, things like Only God forgives, neon demon, Valhalla, Bronson. I think that I'm always trying to figure out with him is what he thinks of the material he's making. You know, or what he thinks of the material that he's filming.

Now, this was, To Old to Die Young was written in collaboration with Ed Brubaker, who has a storied history, as a comic book writer, worked on last season of Westworld, I believe. And so there's a grounding, there is a story, there is dialogue. But reference treatment of this pushes it to almost the boundaries of what anybody's attention span can actually handle

by which I mean the two characters will have a fairly run-of-the-mill cop drama exchange I'm working this case well who are you looking for this person well why are you asking me about it because I think that you have something to do with it

well I don't okay that scene that I just mentioned will go on for five six minutes will feature 10 or 20 seconds of just shots of Miles Teller or Jenna Malone sitting there looking at one another. There are scenes set in the Mexican cartel in the second episode where Refing will just run the camera on a dolly back and forth and these almost panoramic, like inconceivably long dolly shots

across landscapes, whether they are outdoor desert vistas or inside of a bar. And you're just sitting there as this incredible, incredible Cliff Martinez score plays, but you're not looking at anything. There is actually literally no direction being done. There's no like, this is why you should look over here because this is important to the story. It's just a mural of behavior. And the behavior isn't even that interesting. But I found myself unable to look away.

Well, it's concentrating your attention. I mean, again, these are subjective terms and it's weird. I'm kind of talking across purposes because I'm not a fan of it. but I would also say at this point that he's a master filmmaker, you know. And he has a way of seeing that's somewhat derivative. And I mentioned a bunch of people who he's emulating, and certainly some of that slow panning or those reverse dolly shots are very Kubrickian. But like, this is obviously a way that he apprehends the world.

He's been consistent in it. He's not one of these filmmakers who switches his dial-up. He kind of applies it regardless of what the movie he's making. That's why I like that you mention Ed Brubaker, because there's a really firm grounding in genre, and maybe a set of influences there that are like a little earthier, you know, like Jim Thompson, that kind of really bloody, mean-spirited self.

And the question you have to ask with, the rest of the style come from. The style comes from the last 20 years of movies he's made. It's just what is its effect when applied to something that, you know, could be told by another director and not just half the time. Like we're talking like exponentially shorter. Oh, yeah.

This is like watching China Town or something on like half speed or three-quarters speed. And I think some people find that really hypnotic, and I think some people find it unbelievably boring. But like you, even if it's slightly in a more bemused way, like I can't look away. I'm just picturing the money that was being spent on it and what it's been spent on. And it's just hilarious. Oh, absolutely. I mean, the middle finger aspect of it is really there. and I sometimes wonder whether or not,

you know, this is essentially a cop show as Houston rap. It's like DJ Screw pitch down, syrupy, long, slow, dragged out. And then much like DJ Screw Treatments of rap songs, you can find new textures and new things to sort of engage with within that slowness. And I did find that happening, especially during the second episode,

The Lovers, which I thought was at once the most boring episode and the most visually stunning. What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not this show is actually a commentary on our fascination with these kinds of stories, and that he's almost saying, oh, do you want these guys to do a bunch of Coke? Here, they're going to rub coke all over each other's faces. Do you guys want these? Do you want to see this edgy portrayal of Mexico? Here it is as this almost perverse, hallucinatory, psychedelic experience.

Do you think that he has that relationship to the material, or do you think he's more, oh, this is fucking cool, let's just extend it? Well, again, I have to watch more than what I write, but, you know, one of the big questions about him, and I'll use, like, really precise critical language, you might want to get the source is out. Like, the question is, if he a dumb ass.

Is he a dumbass? Is he a dumbass? is he a dumbass? Like, people have been a dubbets. I mean, this has literally been at the center of criticism around Nick Resson. If he makes public statements and presents himself in a certain way, even the way he is in this documentary, his wife made about him called My Wight, my life directed by Nicholas Ruffin, which is all about the disaster making only God forgive.

Like, he kind of seems a little slow. You know, he's one of those directors, like, did his criterion top ten list, and he was talking about David Carnberg's crash, and he's like, this movie is a great combination of sex and violence. You just read that sentence and you're like, you're not wrong, but that's all you've got to say. You know, like he's kind of a bozo, or he acts like a bozo. It's a bit like Tarantino, who sometimes acts a lot dumber in public than he obviously is, or it's a version of how David Lynch will say there's nothing going on in my movies,

what obviously the, you know, the subtext and references are very precise. I mean, as for whether he's trying to, like, test us or confront us, not sure. If you look at his movie, he has definitely got aspect, a fetish for sadism and humiliation. He's really interested in masculinity, and I think sometimes seeing that masculinity kind of fail, you know, if you've seen Only God Forgives, this is a movie where the Ryan Gosling characters act like a badass, but it's completely ineffectual. And that's kind of the vibe I'm getting early on from Miles Teller in this, is sort of doing a discount gossiping performance.

But, you know, then the question I'd ask you or the question that I thought about with people while watching is like, is this show better or worse or more embarrassing or cooler if he's invested in it or if he's detached in it. Because I don't tend to like Pulse that thinks it's above Pulse. I think that's when you start getting into trouble. Yeah. This was kind of the same conversation we had about dragged across concrete a couple months ago. And I don't know what you think, but that's what I really thought of while

watching. That's interesting. That incredible slowness, that incredible slowness, that incredible sense of provocation, and it's hard to tell if it's earnest or if it's in quote, you know? Dragg or Cross Concrete fills those empty moments with dialogue. And this show, or a tool to die young, is pretty much just the star's reference camera. And the other thing that, you know, we can talk about whether or not, you know, his sadism, aside. I also wondered whether or not this show was

like a sly critique of humbler screen grab one perfect shot, kind of the way we fetish-sized composition. And he was like, oh, do you think that this is a cool shot? What if you had to watch it for 93 seconds? One perfect shot.

It's the same principle financially as it's like inflation, right? If everything's a money shot, then nothing's a money shot. Right. And there are some filmmakers, and it's all very case-dependent, but like for me, a filmmaker like Hoshou Shen or Family Kubrick, I mean, let's be honest, the sublime beauty of how they see the world and whatever, you don't OD on it, you don't get strung out by it, like it's just really great, one image after another. In Reffen's case, I do kind of get tired of it, but the formalist part of me admires his commitment to, the bit, I guess. Yeah.

You know, but one thing that we should just comment on, I mean, in some ways it's a hard show to spoil. And I think I've watched more of it than you have it. I'm not going to say anything with the fourth or fifth or six episodes. But can we just talk about the absolute strangeness of that second episode, which is not just a different plot line or set of characters from what we see in the premiere? It's, I think, like, 90% subtitles in Spanish. and and like, like, pivots on like, like, a joke about Pele

and, like, a soccer game between cops and, and, like, it does find room. Again, I'm not spoiling. Like, there is violence and there is transgression in it. But, like, there's about as little as possible in that ratio to... And that was the episode for me, where even with all my predisposition

against Reffin, while watching it, I just on some level with, like, the fact that people are watching this is kind of amazing. Oh, yeah. And that episode, if there's like a sign wave, I was all over the place. I mean, and you mentioned that it's largely subtitled Spanish. That in and of itself forces you to watch because you can't go into the other room and make a sandwich and come back and be like, oh, okay, so they're still sitting in this dinner. But I could hear the dialogue from the other room. You literally have to, you're transfixed by really, really, really pedestrian domestic scenes that I'm not even. even spoiling anything, include two soccer practices, two cleanings of colostomy bags, and endless scenes of watching an old guy sleep. I'm not joking. That's in this show that Amazon has got on Amazon Prime, the same place that has the new Tom Clancy show and the marvelous Mrs. Maisel. There's just this weird experiment going on. And I was almost like, there are times

where I was like, I have to have arrived at a better point in my life to where I don't have to watch this. And then there were times where like, I am the only person who understands art in America when I was watching it. Well, but again, and, you know, this is stuff that Sean Fennessex touched on in things he's written for Ringer and other critics to talk about. You and I talked about it. It's just migration to some extent of a lot of aspects of synephelia into, I guess, what we call TV and streaming culture. Yeah. And like even Resson, again, it can talked about this stuff. and I rolled my eyes because he sounds so dumb when he talks about it. He's like, if Fritz Lang was alive today, he'd be making streaming, you know,

and you sort of go, there's like, you know, five things wrong with that sentence. But you also realize whether it's Alfonso Quarron or the Coens or, frankly, Nick Reffin, you know, the migration of what we might call kind of O-Tour cinema or Festival Cinema or Art House cinema onto these street-in platforms, it is creating a really interesting conundrum, not bad things. But like, calendars and questions and dilemmas about how do you classify things? How do you write about them? And I think on some level, it's recalibrating audience expectations about what they might find at home. Yeah.

I mean, promise of these streaming services, when they first started getting into business with directors, was this idea that they were going to let them tell stories long form, in depth, at the pace or at least to the extent that they wanted to. So you got this wave of filmmakers like Fincher and Carrie Fukenaga and Steven Soderberg and more recently guys like Bong, who are making this really, really visually compelling stuff, but essentially are still playing by TV rules. Every one of those guys in their shows had an episode that had to sew things up. And in the case of the Nick and Steven Soderberg, quite literally sew things up. but they are still sort of playing by a familiar prestige TV playbook. And it's only guys, it's really only Lynch and Refin that I've seen who have completely abandoned that while still having the veneer of it being quote unquote TV.

Yeah, and I mean, you kind of started with Lynch. And coming back to them, I think makes a lot of sense because I think Lynch in general with the original Twin Peaks about ABC, like we're talking about the original original one, 30 years ago, it's kind of what created this idea, this appetite that you could have the really strong personality and aesthetic-driven idea of an American cinema, which is not the only kind of cinema that exists. Some vestige of the new Hollywood could exist in a TV format instead of the two things being antagonistic and antithetical towards each other.

I mean, for me, and I try not to be hyperbolic, like Twin Peaks returns one of the greatest things I've seen in my life, and I'm deeply moved by existence. and by Lynch's commitment to it, I feel like with Ressen, the stakes are a little lower because he's not David Lynch, and this is not Twin Peaks. But I think that the sense of vision and the refusal, as you say, to play by rules is somewhat similar. And even if I find the content questionable, and to some extent also, he does pander because it's not like he's using his vision to show anything but sex and violence. I mean, that's what he's always tied to. I cannot help but admire it. Like, I never thought the word admiration of Nick Reffen

would enter my vocabulary matrix at the same time. But I do. And we haven't even talked about just some of the weird performance things going on. I mean, you've got to tell me, just because you haven't told me it, like, what you think of Baldwin. Oh, my God.

He's doing a coked-out imitation of his, of Alec Baldwin. He is, like, becoming his brother. It's nuts. He plays a hedge fund billionaire who is the father of a high school girl who is dating Miles Teller's 30-year-old homicide detective. Yeah, and tough tiger and, like, kind of threatening him Soto Voce through this stuffed tiger.

And, like, they kind of have a conversation with each other holding stuffed animals, you know? Yeah. We're not considering it, but just describing it in an outline sort of gives some sense of maybe how strained the weirdness is because strained weirdness is something I think Ruffin is. has been guilty of before. But I found the performance,

particularly by Baldwin, like, pretty magnetic. That's pretty funny stuff. And as for Miles Teller, I mean, we've never really seen him in a part, maybe with the exception of whiplash, where he's had to, like, really dig deep and act.

And he's doing the opposite of that here. He's not really digging deep at all. He's almost like just this mannequin. You know, remember the mannequin challenge where the camera just moves around frozen people? That's the aesthetic here for anyone who's listening, if they want to know what it looks like. I think this show is asking all sorts of really, really interesting questions.

Just knowing 2019 and the way people's lives are, it's not going to be for everybody. If you want to make it a project and if you want to really just let it wash over you, I think it's an incredibly rewarding experience. It is just such a niche thing that it's hard to be like stop what you're doing and watch this. But Adam, we're going to, you and I are going to go back and forth a little bit more in depth on the site once we get a couple of more episodes under our belt. I really appreciate you calling in and talking to us about it, and we'll have you on again soon.

Yeah, thanks for having me, as always. Later, Adam. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the all-new BMW 3 series. Don't be driven by technology. Drive it. The all-new BMW-3 series is available with the state-of-the-art technology. That means feature after feature of the latest BMW innovations, such as the intelligent personal assistant,

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Go to show, S-H-O-com slash city. City-on-Hill airs Sundays at 9 only on showtime. Now I'm joined by the new Andy. It's slowly taken over. Producer Kyia McMullen is back. Hello. She talked with me about the society last Thursday. Today she's talking with me about Big Little Lies, episode two.

Kaya, now, last week, just so people understand behind the curtain here, we record in a studio that kind of has this, like, half wall. And Kaya's on the other side of the half wall. But last week, I recorded with my back to the half wall. So not only could I not see Kaya, but I couldn't even, like, really even perceive of Kyle. Oh my God. She just opened a sliding door.

She's right there. Now I can see Kaya. Sort of. You can see my hand. The banter will be a lot sharper. Kaya, Big Little Lies, episode two, Telltale Hearts. Mm-hmm. Laura Dern.

I know this was covered on Big Little Live with Amanda and Mina, and you can watch our Twitter after show after the East Coast airing of Big Little Lies every Sunday. Big Little Live. Great show. And I know that this has been discussed. But people really got to not talk out loud on the phone anymore because so much bad shit happened in this episode because Maddie was just walking around her kitchen.

Well, no, she wasn't talking on the phone. She was talking to society favorite, her daughter. That's right, Catherine Newton. Well, she told Catherine, what's her name in the show? Catherine Newton's the actress. Abigail. Abigail. She told Abigail about sleeping with the theater director, and Abigail then dialed that one up at the absolute moment that Adam Scott's Ed character walked into the kitchen. That was actually a really, really good, well-played scene

by the three of them, I thought. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, it just seemed, oh, yeah, this is something that could happen in real life, and all of a sudden,

you look up and poor Adam Scott. Poor Adam Scott. So the other major shooter drop was that Chloe, Madeline's younger daughter, overheard Madeline talking about Ziggy being Perry, Alexander Scarsgar's child

when he sexually assaulted Shailene Woodley's character in the sort of flashbacks that happened in the first season. And so that Ziggy is half-brothers with Nicole Kim and Celeste's kids. And this was supposed to be a very well-kept secret, tightly guarded. I mean, isn't Chloe just the new Madeline in training? Essentially. Taking it upon herself to get into other people's business. The reason why I wanted to talk to you about this episode,

aside from just sort of updating people on how we're doing with it, is that I thought that this was an example of a different flavor, but of the same food group that we had to eat of the end of Game of Thrones. Now, I know that you were not a big Game of Thrones person, but essentially what a lot of people, you know, sort of critiqued Game of Thrones for was they're doing all this stuff because they need to get the plot to a certain point. And even if they have to do some stupid shit to get there,

they kind of have to take care of it. I felt like this season needed some tension, and now they got it. Right. And the tension is coming from basically Celeste kids learning of their new half-brother and also learning of the fact that their dad was not a great guy. Right. And as does Mary Louise, who's played by Merrill Streep, and that's Perry's mother. And so it's essentially this secret that they held essentially for the off season,

so in between season one and season two. has now come out. Now, I think it's essential for the show to have dramatic tension. In fact, I was kind of hoping, at least for the sake of the show, that there might be some more drama between Jane and Celeste. I thought the closing scene was very interesting of them all just kind of sitting around playing board games in Shalene's apartment. Yeah, and tearfully sort of like being a new kind of family. Family came up, the idea of family. comes up throughout the episode of like what is a family and what constitutes familial bonds and even those look at the other Perry's kids sons were like well Ziggy's already a friend is it

going to be any different she was like hopefully you know no right what did you think of the episode though did you think it was a good episode of Big Lowell Lives yeah I did I thought it was a good episode for everyone and great episode for Laura Dern yes excellent let's talk a little bit about Renata. She is just, like, throwing 100. So far, I mean, from the two 40-minute episodes, every single time Renata is on screen, it's just like, holy shit. Yeah.

And, you know, it seems like basically Renata and Maddie are the meme generators, the content creators of big little eyes. Don't throw Mary Louise out. No, I guess she's pretty in there, too. Merrill's really doing a lot of gestures, like the grabbing the crucifix and putting it up on her chin. Yeah. I was like, all right, dial it down a little bit, Iron Lady. She can't.

She can't. But, you know, the, I'm curious to see what Renata's new financial situation does to her relationship to the rest of the women. And also in terms of if there is going to be an investigation into whether or not Bonnie actually, you know, manslaughtered Perry. I think what's great about Renata this season is that she's kind of almost just turned into a full parody of. her character of this like super high achieving Silicon Valley Tiger Mom. Yeah. And I think before in the first season it was like a little bit more subtle. But then like the line, I will not not be rich.

You're just like, oh yeah, this is what you're here for. Absolutely. Any other thoughts on Big Little Lies this week? I'm enjoying this season. I feel like one thing about it that's been really good is that it feels like a little bit more like a TV show. but in that, it feels like I'm happy to spend time with Ed and Nathan almost getting into a fist fight at a coffee shop because if it's just going to be a TV show, like let's have lots of B and C and D plots that are kind of amusing. Right, right. Yeah, I'm enjoying it so far. It's moving along. I think it's a little,

I think it's moving on a little bit of slower of a pace than I would like. I think I'm definitely like really paying a lot of attention to like what is happening on this season on. So I feel like I would like things to pick up just a little bit more. But overall, I think it's great, great real estate porn, just great, a lot of like Oscar nominated actresses doing their thing. What's up with Bonnie's mom? Tough to say. I'm not sure what was going on with the crystal placement and also the consumption, heavy consumption of red wine.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's not unique to her mom. But yeah, I was wondering whether or not there. There's just like, there's a lot of Northern California vibes come in. Yes. And as someone who grew up in Northern California, I grew up like an hour north of Monterey. I recognize quite a bit of it.

In terms of the healing potential of crystals and lots of hot yoga. Yeah, hot yoga, spiritualness, talk, just a lot of let's be in touch with our emotions. Was that your family or were you just like a lot of friends of yours had families like that? My mom definitely did employ crystals sometimes. Okay. Leave it at that. All right. Well, let's get into our conversation with Micah about another HBO show, Euphoria,

which had a ton more synthetic hallucinogenics being ingested than Big Little Lies. But, you know, we don't want to count Big Little Lies out just yet. That we know of. Yeah. All right. Let's get into it with Micah. Now, I have an apology to make to watch listeners because I invite a Micah Peter's on to talk about Euphoria, thinking,

Micah's the closest person I'm really friends with who's of an age to remember behavior like this through C on Euphoria. HBO's new teen drama

which is full of sex and drugs and a little oozyvert. And yet, you're 28. I am 28 as of today. Okay, happy birthday, Micah. Thank you very much. My birthday present to you

is to provide a platform for your takes. Dude, this is an interesting age for you, though, because you're too old to die young. I was wondering how long it was going to take you to like shoehorn that into this conversation.

What you are is, you are on that, you're on that turn towards the final country, right? Where you're really, really, really into adulthood with adult problems and all of that. Beginning to, like, I forget exactly who was at Twitter this, but 27 is the age is where, like, you're, the idea that you are too old for this shit and too young for this shit is collapsing in on itself. So let me ask you, are you too old for this euphoria shit? Hmm, no, I don't think so.

Okay. Okay, well, I did watch the series premiere last night, and I found that it was a lot. It's a lot in the very first two minutes. Yes. Begins with the very heavy voiceover from Zendaya, where she's talking about being born on 9-11. A couple days after. Yeah, a couple days after. that her parents just spent all of her first days watching footage of the Tower.

Exactly. And, well, I mean, like, even before that, like, the images of her coming out of the birth now, she's just like, I fought it the whole way. I didn't want to be more. And I was just like, all right, I know where we're at now. Okay. Right. I think her voiceover actually really, in a weird way, makes the show.

Oh, yeah. I think because there's a lot going on. And it's an intentionally provocative show. I think it's intentionally provocative from HBO. I think it's trying to push buttons. It's trying to make viewers at once uncomfortable, but also feel like, oh, cool, it's neon. The music is good.

Drake executive produced it. Zendaya is in it from Spider-Man. But let's set it up briefly. So obviously, Euphoria is the new show on HBO. It's been heavily hyped. It was heavily promoted during the end run of Game of Thrones, pretty much like these two-minute trailers before episodes of Game of Thrones.

So it was definitely getting in front of a lot of eyeballs. It stars Zendaya, who a lot of people know from the Spider-Man movies, but is also a Disney actor. And she plays this girl Roo, who is a not really recovering drug addict who just got out of rehab. Right.

She also has OCD, potentially... An anxiety problem. ...dis disorder. Yeah. Right. Or she might be a teenager. Yeah, exactly. And she is going into her junior year of high school

in... Is it supposed to be California or Arizona? Like, I couldn't tell. You know, the thing is that, like, I got the sense that it wasn't really important for you to know. It's any town USA. Exactly.

And it's meant to, it's shot in such a way that like everything, like even if it's just an alleyway or like a hallway or like, you know, a room in a house feels massive. Yes.

Like so. And Sam Levinson is the showrun of this show. He did Assassination Nation, a movie that came out a couple years ago that was equally provocative in button pushing. So there is no plot really. You know, it's basically like one crazy night for the first episode.

They go to a party. all these different high school kids go to a party. They get absolutely trashed. Have some self-discovery, have some moments they'll regret. And it's really just a setup. In fact, the episode ends with room meeting

a woman named Jules, trans woman named Jules, who she is obviously going to become friends with over the course of the season. There's a lot of, like, criss-cross of who's doing what to whom, with whom, in what room, on what drugs. It is sensory overload in a lot of ways.

Like every frame has got somebody to abusing substances. Every second has a song jammed into it. I wanted to ask you about that to start off with. We can get into whether or not you were scandalized morally. Where's your head at in terms of like the way music supervision is working with stuff you're watching? In terms of like how much music they are trying to jam into every single frame of TV and movies when you're watching, right now. I mean, it's definitely a demonstration

of like, we are very aware of the time in which this is happening. And that's the easiest way to explain it. And what they're listening to. Exactly. Exactly. I, and I mean, you have to, the fact of the matter is, is that if you're going to have

high school parties, you got to have, like, you got to jam music in there. Like, now, I mean, considering that I know that, you know, knows Zendaya's, is Dendaya is like a former Disney channel actress and then like in Spider-Man far from home. And then, you know, occasionally some of the pop music I listen to. And then she's just like ripping like lines off of the table to Young Thug.

And I'm just like, okay. So this is, you know, the, this is the tip we're on. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, like it's, I think that it is an accurate way. of, again, demonstrating that you're up with what is happening at the current time. It didn't seem forced to be in ways that it has in other shows or movies that I've seen recently

where it just feels like we license this song. First of all, you guys could be saving a ton of money. Just pay somebody on SoundCloud to be like, booboo. Just pay some type B guys. Yeah. But I think what I sort of miss, this is going to be the first of six or seven old man shit things I'm going to say. is the juxtaposition of a song with what you're actually seeing and the way of which a song could illustrate

the emotional lives of the people that you're watching rather than just being like, this is what they might be listening to, but even if they're not, it's dope to have this song on. Yeah, that's like, say for instance, with like True Detective Season 1, and a good friend of mine, Nate Scott,

wrote about this for like all things ago a couple years back where he was talking about the music and True Detective where, in contrast to a show like Trem, or Tremay, sorry. there was basically like they were just like we are in Louisiana and we are putting in all of the second line shit and we were putting in all the brass band we're going to have preservation hall jazz band in here and all this other stuff and that was great i like i loved it but like you get more of a sense of the relationship that russ and cole have i mean russ cole and uh and marty have with this like this really old like folk song that's like from Alabama or like what or this like psychedelic rock song from this

band that was in I don't know fucking like California somewhere you get better you get a better sense of the relationship they have than just trying to put you know jazz jazz jazz jazz exactly to be like hey we're in rural Louisiana yeah I always think of like the

the Copacabana tracking shot and Goodfellas where they're playing and then he kissed me and it's like the sound of what's going on inside of Karen as she's going into this like magical world with Henry Hill. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? Like it's like you don't need, you have the tracking shot, but you don't see her face because you can hear how she's thinking because you're hearing and then he kissed me. Yeah. That to me is like sort of like, that's why you use pop music

in a movie or a TV show, not just to be like, okay, jamming in. Yeah, it's kind of like thinking about the same way as, you know, a shot of cereal and then a face contorted just the right way creates the idea of hunger or whatever, the coolest show of effect. It's like, same thing, but you don't have to make it, like, the lyrics don't have to literally say what is happening in the scene. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the content.

Yeah. Were you scandalized at all? There were a lot of, there were tough to watch scenes in that. I mean, like, it was, like, it was a lot of being like, no, no, no at the TV screen. but I mean it's not like I think that

you can only really really be scandalized by it if you feel like if you are so naive as to think that things like this don't happen it's just that

you know like you're questioning whether or not you should whether you need to see it on screen or not like the scene with Jules

in the hotel room right with Eric Dean that was tough like it was coming back it was just like Like as soon as like I saw her get off the bike in front of a hotel in front of the motel, I was like, no.

It had a grimm's fairy tale vibe too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was a really tough scene. I think I think anybody watching is going to find 15 or 20 things where like, oh God, dude. Teenagers really do that. But I mean, like, you know, like then there will be the parts where it like pulls back and it's just like, all right, this is, you know, like we kind of have an understanding. Like there's a moral compass here somewhat like the scene where, um, you know, like the scene where, um, What is the guy's name?

McKay. Yeah, McKay and Carly? I think. I think it's McKay and Carly. But anyway, where he gets like too aggressive. Yes. And like, then there's like the pause and then the voiceover comes in and it's just like, this doesn't end in rate. Yeah.

And I was just like, oh, God, thank God. It's a difficult, the sensation you're describing is what you're like, well, and you know I just spent like 30 minutes talking with Adam about why am I watching this you know and for me too old to die young it's visually interesting and it's asking enough interesting artistic questions to me and also I just like like watching stories that are about what it's about the euphoria is kind of a flip side where you're just like okay like what am I really learning here and now I think part of that is that you can get really a myopic and get into this soap opera stuff and I loved uh well I'm I think it was like Maddie and Kat who were all like vaping in the car and in her bedroom and they were just talking shit. Like I like there's a couple really good banter scenes. But I guess it's like, what are you watching it for? Are you watching it to learn about like what are the systemic kind of societal things to create a world in which this kind of shit happens? Or are you trying to say it's always like this, this is just different pills, different sex, different, you know.

And I could not. I mean, like, and I've only watched one ever. I can't tell whether it's one thing or the other. Yeah. But I do know that I am very into ruin Jules' relationship. Like, I want to know more about that just because of, I don't know, at some point early in the episode, Rue was talking about, like, having a voiceover after a fight with her mom, and she's just talking about, like, I'm not a, like, I'm not delicate. And her mom's just like, yes, you are.

And this is, like, a whole thing that you do, like, to put up walls of distance in between. yourself and other people. So like her relationship with Jules towards the end of it after they meet is kind of like that sensation of this is the first person that I've met that doesn't want anything for me, doesn't think anything like doesn't judge me in any way. And like that being like friendly but also maybe romantic and maybe whatever like you know you just want to be in the like the friendship that they have. Yeah. Yeah. And. I mean, they really found something pretty special with those two performances, I think. Yeah.

I think it's Hunter Schaefer. Hunter Schaefer. And Zendaya really have incredible chemistry. It seems like they have, like, a lot of empathy with each other. It's a very palpable connection when they meet towards the end of the episode. Yeah. Also, she's a trans woman playing a trans woman, which is not, like, a glad survey from 2017 and 2018 was said that that was represented like 5% of television.

Yeah. like so what's up with the dude Nate the jock never wearing a shirt so okay I was thinking about this shit we stopped wearing shirts now I was just like I was just like I mean like it's like be do whatever you want to do but I just didn't get the memo that we were all not wearing shirts anymore I mean front parties in college there's a lot of shirtless dudes is number one yes yes absolutely but I mean like also I was kind of going back and forth in my head about that because I was just like is this just like a cartoonish representation of like

this like chest thumping machismo thing or and then I was just thinking about when he walked back into his house after the night was over and he was wearing a shirt again finally. Yes. And I was just like Oh well. Not even driving but was wearing a shirt. Yeah exactly. Yeah. I was just like

oh well I mean like if you're gonna like you know I remember thinking in high school that like if I could just change like my shirt and put everything in that they wouldn't notice. Right? So it's just like if I can get in the door with a shirt that smells like not like I haven't been out doing dirt or whatever, then everything will be fine. But the thing is, is that you come to realize later in life that it's in your hair. It's not on your clothes. I had that experience with my dad when I came back. I was actually in my early 20s at this point. Or maybe I was like 19 or 20. I can't remember. But I came back home for Thanksgiving or something and I was like lying. I was sleeping. not in my room.

I was sleeping like in a different room, one that he would like more easily like walk into and he walked in and he saw my tattoo for the first time. He was just like, what the fuck? And I was like, how did I think I was going to never see my dad without my arm exposed ever again?

You really think that it's just like a thing that you can just never have to talk about? Right, because I got my first tattoo up high enough on my shoulder so that I could either hide it or go, Kiefer Sutherland stand by me and roll my camel lights up in my

t-shirt shoulder and be like, yeah, I'm a badass, even though I'm like standing here outside of Newberry Comic Clasers. But yeah, I did not. I think I got like three months of private tattoo and then it was out in the open. My parents were cool about it, but they were

also just like what the hell is going on with you. What's this about? What's going on with you? Are you engaged enough to keep going with you for you? I think I'm going to keep going for the next couple weeks at least. I mean, like, I am interested enough. I'm sorry.

The scene where Jules, like, is, what's the Jock character's name? Nate? Yeah. And she's like, I'm invincible. Cut yourself. Like, she was just like, that scene was, like, cheering at the TV. But also, I think that there's probably something sad behind that kind of reaction. Yeah, I think for every, I think everybody involved is kind of sad with the exception

of the little kid dealer living in the back of a beer cooler. Oh my God. That dude, I hope that guy's got like some North Face. I mean... Because I guess it's like to keep his pills cold or stay out of the way. But we could find like a more moderate temperature for my little man to sell apparently chemically engineered psychedelics. Yeah, just just wild synthetic drugs.

Um, okay. Well, I, because I was, the reason I was asking if you're engaged enough is we were, I was just talking to Adam about two old diang and one of the things. that I think is a challenge for some people is that it is immediately like 13 hours of homework that's sitting right there. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like there's even me and Miles

from our site have been slacking back and forth. He's like, what episode are you on it? I'm like three. And I felt like I deserved a merit badge for getting through three, but he's like I'm done. And I'm like, Jesus, man, I got like nine more hours to catch up on this. I wonder what the reaction to Euphoria would be if it

was all already available. Like, do you think you would have watched another one last night? I think I probably would have watched another one last night I mean like I watched all of okay so when I was I got six study when I was studying abroad in France and ended up watching like four seasons of skins like I mean

that's the show's closest exactly and I mean like and so chances are if it was all available I would have watched at least like two or three yeah you know yeah it's it'll be fascinating to see whether or not they can sustain this level of substance abuse without obviously losing characters. Yeah. And also just like whether or not the pitch that this show is operating at in terms of its intensity is something that people are able to keep up with.

You know? Yeah. It's a lot to ask. All right. Micah, thank you so much for coming by to talk about Euphoria. Of course. Happy birthday. Thank you very much.

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