The Watch - Top Five TV Shows of the Year, Plus: Sarah Snook on ‘Succession’

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

As The Ringer discusses their top shows of the year, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald follow suit and break down their top five shows thus far (2:00). Then, Sarah Snook joins the show to talk about her role as Shiv Roy in 'Succession' and the potential plans for a third season (36:12). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Sarah Snook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the Ringer, I'm Tyler R. Times. When I spoke to NFL star Cam Newton in January, his mindset was clear. I want my whole career to be in Charlotte. Cam won't be getting that wish. He was released by the Carolina Panthers in March. Cam is a complex figure, and my interest in him goes far beyond his exuberant smile and transcendent style of play. Cam broke the glass ceiling in American athletics, ascended to a place in the sport that few black quarterbacks have ever reached, making his fall that much more dramatic.

Over the past year, I've traveled the country speaking to coaches and teammates, friends and family, reporters, and even briefly to the man himself, trying to unravel the enigma that is Cam Newton. I uncovered contradictions at every turn. How can the hardest work on the team be depicted as a bad leader? And how can the franchise icon, with the NFL MVP and Super Bowl appearance on his resume be so abruptly cast aside.

The Ringer NFL show presents The Cam Chronicles. The series premieres Monday July 13th. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He's my top five show of the year every year. It's Andy Greenwald. What does that mean? Does that mean I'm all five of your favorite shows due to my many moods? My entire relationship with television is shot through the lens of being friends with you. It's true.

I think so. You know, like before I was like, you know, it's good, 24, but who cares? Then I met you and everything changed. Look at you now. You're like a living, breathing TV concierge. Greetings and salutations to watch listeners. It's Monday. I hope you guys are all getting excited for the holiday weekend.

We've got one show for you this week, but what a show. What a show. So today, in honor of Allison, Herman, and Miles Surrey doing it on the site, Andy and I are also going to talk about our top five. We're just going to do top five. I think they did 10 on the site. But we've got some best of the year so far stuff on the ringer.com that should definitely check out. Andy and I thought we'd get in on the action and chat a little bit about our five favorite shows of the year. And then the second half of the show, we have a very special guest. one of our real avatars of this show, one of our real foundational characters. She plays Shiv Roy on Succession, so Sarah Snook is joining us

at the second half of the show. We can't wait to talk to her. What a run we're on. This is great. Everybody's saying yes. I don't have to say, man. I don't think anybody has anything better to do except to talk to us.

All you got to do is ask. How are you doing? How is your weekend? Oh, you know, fine. I don't know how to answer that question anymore. Do you? No, I don't. I've been digging in the movie crates.

I know it's kind of a hard pivot for me, you know, known as Mr. No Cinema. But I saw two good movies this weekend on the TV box. One was Pedro Almodovar's movie from last year, Pain and Glory. Are you a big Pedro guy? Big Pedro guy. Are you really? I love an Elmodovar film. I am actually.

I love them. Love them. And I think you know this, that like, in general, I'm a big fan. And I know you are as well. I'm a fan of creators who basically spend... I'm a fan of creators and I'm passionate about storytelling. That's my Doseki's ad. No free ads.

But people who basically make the same story or the same movie or write the same song or write the same book. And they just work through it over their whole lives. Like when I was out of town briefly and I went to this great used bookstore. Shout out to Barth's books up in Ohio, California. They are fans of the watch up there. They're wonderful people, and they're doing great. Check them out. They're open stores mostly outdoors anyway.

Yeah. You should feel safe wearing your mask. And, you know, for example, I picked up a book by the great American author, James Salter, that he wrote late in life called All That Is. And you pick it up, and dude is like 80. And you open it and it's just like, the book is basically like, Mark was a bomber pilot in World War II. And now he has had, now he's fucked his way through the second half of the 20. the century. I'm like, God bless. God bless. He's still doing his book. Anyway, Almodovar is doing that, and Pain and Glory is basically kind of his most autobiographical movie yet with just an outrageously good

lead performance by Antonio Banderas. Oscar nominated, shout to the big picture, which probably had more opinions about this back in the day. Love this movie. And then I've been digging into the Criterion Crates a little bit. I wonder if we should at some point make a little, I don't know, just make a little recommendation guide for movies that we've been digging on this. the criterion collection because it's helping me get through this pandemic. Your pivot to Caillade de Cinema is just one of the most unexpected moves I've had this year. And it's been a lot of surprises in 2020. I know.

I like to keep you on your toes. And I think that it's very much my brand that I'm a zagger when people zig. And if we're doing the best TV of the year, time to talk movies. But I watch Edward Yang's Taipei story. And I dug a lot last night. I watched, what did I watch this weekend? We need a little bit of a pick-me-up. So my wife and I did a Bill Murray double feature of what about Bob and Quick Change this weekend.

That was pretty fun. That sounds fantastic. Boy, that sounds good. What about Bob is pretty fucking dark, man. Have you ever thought about that? I remember it as being very dark. It's not like, because I, you know how like a lot of those comedies often would have like midway through a completely out of nowhere introduction of like a new plot device would come in to unite those sort of warring factions of the comedy? and all of a sudden, like,

anybody who didn't like each other at the Caddyshack Golf Course or at the fraternity house or Beverly Hills Cop had like a huge criminal investigation that kind of took it away from the fish out of water story. That doesn't happen and what about Bob?

It's just like this guy comes and ruins Richard Dreyfus's life and nobody believes him and then it ends. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. We didn't have to have expanded universes back then. They didn't need to be prequels

or after credit scenes. Also, I just love that it was like the comedy of the year. Dreifis, Murray. Yeah. I don't know if this is going to be video. People might see a slightly different backdrop from the one they're used to. There's no straight boxes of Cheerios.

And it's because I have been venturing out into my office space here in Hollywood. Private, not private office, but this room, you know, socially distant, responsible, et cetera. But they make a lot of movies here. This is part of our movie talk. And the one thing, here's the thing. And I'm not intentionally trolling Sean Fantasy here when I say this, but generally, there has been this presumption for years, right, that movies, the great films, they stand the test of time,

but TV, the churn of TV means there's always something new, and it was only recently that the great series kind of last and live on in people's memories. I would say that the hallways of this Hollywood center are a testament to why that is a lie, because they are lined with the posters of movies that felt like very big deals when they were made. And when you frame a movie poster,

You're like, oh, this is a moment in time that people worked on this, sweat, hours, spent months, years even. Uh-huh. Right? Like, right outside of my office, there's a poster for the film, The Dukes of Hazard,

starring Johnny Knoxville, Sean William Scott, Jessica Simpson, and Bert Reynolds. And there was a guy, maybe it was your alter ego, Joe Hollywood, who was just like, putting the pieces together, right?

Like the Lego champion. It was like, we got to be. Scott, we got Knoxville. If we can lasso, Bert, we've got a hit on our hands. You know what I mean? Like, there's a movie over here. It's like Jackie Chan, I'm like Hollywood, you know, a legend, not just Hollywood

Global. And Claire Forlani. I'm like, okay, that was a moment. Shouts to Claire Forlani. Yeah. What movie is that, the Jackie Chan, Claire Forlani movie? Did you, you forgot already? Don't make me Google it.

I remembered every time I go to the bathroom. Yeah, I think that, I think that, I wonder if that's changing. Because I was thinking about art. This actually goes well into the top five list because when I was making it, it's very hard to make a top five list because you realize that like you have to sort of start separating affection from absolute admiration, you know, and awe. And I found myself really wanting to almost give deference to shows that have our repeat performers. So basically we've been caught up in this kind of constant whirlwind of, okay, great, that show came out on Friday. it's completely done. What's coming out next Friday?

What's coming out in two months? And as I sort of keep my eye on the Metacritic.com release schedule, I'm like, man, there's just, there's a little bit of a, a little bit of a drought coming. There's a little bit, like, there is like a little bit of a drought coming with the shows that are good. There's a big one coming after that. Yeah, there's a really big one coming. And I was like, maybe we should be, we should take our time.

You know, I know that you were like, let's take a second and let me like digest a little bit of dark before we go headlong into it. But when I think about shows that are able to kind of sustain interest over the course of several seasons, I think for this list in particular, I at least wanted to earmark a couple of things that I felt like, I was like, wow, you know, this is part of the, this is part of the, not only the commercial proposition for television, but it also can be part of the artistic proposition for television, that a show can get good or get even better on episode 32 and not just episode 6. Yes, and I would also say, I think that's a great way to look at it.

I would also just say, anecdotally, back of the scorecard, chicken scratch here, this year, and obviously the second half of the year remains a big question mark because of productions being shut down all over the world. We probably will have season 1A of Flores Lava. That will be what the show revolves around in November. That's why I'm saving my bullets on that one. Just that this year has, in my opinion, has been stronger than last year to date. I remember that.

There's been a lot of really good stuff. And before we get into the list, the other thing that I wanted to call out, and I wonder if you had something similar when you were going through your contenders, I would say the surprise of the year, for me, TV-wise, is the emergence of Hulu. Obviously, Hulu's been around for a long time. Who among us doesn't remember the L.L. like Baldwin Super Bowl commercials announcing the arrival of the service, however years ago that was. But a combination of a programming team that really seems to have found its footing in the last

few years, I think that as we discussed on the podcast, the Handmaid's Tale, Emmy Win, was a total shock to everyone. Sure. And so they were still kind of figuring out what they were other than the place to watch New Girl reruns the next morning. I think the current programming team seems to have figured it out. plus at the exact same time that there's this infusion of talent

from FX on Hulu. So even if you took out, which you shouldn't, but even if you did, took out things like Mrs. America, devs, the current seasons of what we do in the shadows, which we barely talked about,

but we may refer to in a moment, or Dave, which I think you're on board with, but I haven't watched yet. I am on board with it, yeah. I mean, even if you took those things away, you have Rami's season two, you have normal people.

You have high fidelity. High fidelity and you have the great. I mean, that is a knockout. So that's been my, that's my top line before we do into the numbers. And it seems I think that somehow they've done this in a bunch of different ways. I certainly did not sit down here to do a cape up for Hulu. But I would say that they've been able to make a couple of different choices that I'm pretty fond of. One is that they've come up with a couple different ways to release shows that sustain the interest in the conversation around those shows for more than 12 hours on a midnight on a Friday night.

And they've also kind of gotten out of the way. I don't really think of Hulu as having a particular brand or making a particular kind of show. When the Hulu logo flashes, I'm not like a lot of pressure here. A lot of pressure to deliver Hulu. and they obviously have made some really intelligent choices, both in terms of who they're going to partner with, like, FX, and both in terms of the shows that they're buying from overseas, from other production companies.

So I just think generally, like, that kind of, like, if it's here, I will give it a shot, which is literally when Andy and I are, like, kind of going through the, how we feel about Netflix or HBO or how we feel about Apple or Disney Plus or whatever. We're not really, like, I could care less about the ups and downs and fortunes of those companies as companies. I think what we're looking for is the same thing we would look for

when we were growing up and listening to music and we would be like, oh, you know, if it's on Def Jam, I should probably check it out. You know, like that someone somewhere made a choice

that they thought that I might like something. And that's really what this is all about. I love, not to continue to speak about companies as companies, but I love this version that you've spun

where, you know, Jim Hulu was like, you know what? I'm going to partner with those up and the bright boys at FX as opposed to Bob Iger giving the heavy thumb on the shoulder being like, you're a new family. Get along. But I think it's so far anyway, purely from the outside, it seems like it's worked out. I think another thing that I would, another theme of my list and

of this year so far has been. By the way, nothing more the watch than a list episode that begins with 20 minutes of preamble about the theme and vibe and feel of a list. Where's Sam? We should get SML Zoom bombing this. I know. Well, you know, you and I, we could kill time. You know what you mean? I mean, we did start with Almodovar.

So I would say that I would... People are riveted right now is what you're saying. It's been very cool to have a couple of shows coming out where we're seeing some new faces and we're hearing some new voices. Not that I don't love having... the new show from the creator of X to parse, but to have things like, whether it's normal people or I May Destroy You

or even in some ways, zero zero, zero places that we haven't gone before, maybe relationships or imagery that we haven't really seen a ton of. It's been a very stimulating year in that way. Did you abide by the same rule that I arbitrarily applied to mine, which is I just did scripted shows? that I thought that's what the list was. I did. Yeah.

So no cheer for me. No floor is lava. No survivor. No top chef. No the floor's truffles, aka Top Chef, season 17. How come you got to salt it? Don't give Flores truffles away, man.

You're going to keep that to yourself. You're in the Hollywood center. Did you make it like numerical? Did you rank these things? I didn't really. If you want me to, I have two tiers. I have two tiers. Okay.

Two tiers for a list of five or do you have like a backup five? No, I have two tears inside my list of five. Jeez, Louise. All right. All right, you go first there, Dr. Detroit. Tell me what I should be doing here. No, I mean, I feel like, look, we probably shouldn't bury the lead. I imagine our lists are almost entirely the same, at least at the top, right?

Yes. So there are at least three shows that I'm pretty sure we have on both of our lists. I think we have the same three shows. Should we go at the same time? No. This isn't a gender reveal party. Just say, I may destroy you, and we can explain why. I may destroy you, yeah.

Is this, do you think this is the best show of the year? I'm not going to say it because it's still ongoing. I've only seen three episodes of, I believe, 12. So I don't really want to commit to saying that. But I'll say, as we said the other day, that this show currently has the belt. And just in terms of the criteria that we usually use to judge, like, exceptional work or stuff that really excites us and gets us, gets us hype to talk about it and hurl superlatives at it. I may destroy you really takes a lot of the boxes, one of which being like

the debut, not the debut, but the crashing of the party, let's say, of a really powerful, really unique, really strong voice and performer in Michaela Cole, who obviously did chewing gum and has been on other shows that we've even talked about here on the show. But this feels like a larger scale coming out party for just a supernova of a talent. And the show just feels completely of the moment. And also, to me, kind of above and beyond the moment, because at least through three episodes, is firing on cylinders that I didn't know a TV show engine could have. I'm really excited about the show. You know, I was going to actually ask Sarah about this when we have her on to talk a little bit about succession and and you know i think that one of the reasons why succession has felt so vital is

because it feels very much of the world or it felt very much of the world uh when it was on and it felt very much about like our over reliance and overconsumption of media and the way in which business kind of impacts the the information that we get and the people who are making those decisions um and i i'm very curious about like how succession meets another moment i feel like I made a story as a show that definitely met a moment. And I don't even know that it was aware that it was going to be looked at in that way. You know, there's definitely a world in which this show could just slip by unnoticed in some regards. But I'm so happy to see the critical response.

And I think anecdotally the way in which people are connecting with it because it just feels like a show that could not have been made in any other time. I also think to that point, I think the best works of art are the ones. that are put into the world fueled purely by their own passions and interests and abilities and then the world meets up with them. You know, it's not responding to anything other than the life existence and experience and aesthetic interests of its creator, which makes it feel pure and then also makes it feel even more special

that it's arriving at this moment in this year. My second show after that, I think that there's like a group of three at the top where it's, my second show is Better Call Saul. Um, which I don't, we have the same three. I think I talked about and we've talked about so extensively that we don't need to belabor it. I hope that if you are, if you are like the wait for it to hit Netflix person, I, I can't wait for you to enjoy it. I, I think I might actually watch it when it comes out in that fashion as a binge, you know, um, and I just can't wait for

the last season. It's just, um, it's one of the best shows I've seen in, in a long time. And God, yeah. I mean, what else is there to say about that show? I don't know if we have the full, the same full top five, but of my top five, Better Call Saul is the only returning show. And in that light, I appreciate it all the more just because of what it does so exceptionally well. And the type of long form expert storytelling to continue the theme of setting up our interview. I mean, it's what I and many others are desperate to have back in succession. And so it's a wonderful counterbalance that's sort of brash new voices that are on the list.

Those guys just know what they're doing. It's television excellence. Yeah, absolutely. The third show is 0-000-0. Yep. So in case you guys, in case people missed when Andy and I were talking about this more because I don't think we talked about it. People seem to be slowly catching up to the show.

It seems to be sort of penetrating. I saw like Danny Kelly, one of our NFL writers, who's a great guy. It was like, oh, 0-0-0. Like, how did I not know about this? Amazon Prime Show, like basically an international co-production set in Italy, in New Orleans. I thought you said an international Coke production. It is that indeed. Stars Andrea Reisbrough and Dane Dahan and Gabriel Byrne and an incredible new, at least to be, actor, Harold Torres.

And yeah, it is cinematically, I think, like a crowning achievement of the television year. and it's just an absolutely breathtaking crime epic. I think it's for a lot of people who haven't given it a shot yet, it might be the show you've been looking for. For people who are nodding when we talk about Better Call Saul and want something, I mean, it's a lot darker. It's a lot more global and expansive, but it might scratch a similar itch.

And, yeah, it's pretty breathtaking filmmaking. It was cool to see that Mark Graham over at Decider has started running Sean Collins' recaps of the show. I mean, it's been up for, for a couple months, but like, we can do this now. You know, we don't, we don't, it doesn't, just because it dropped when people weren't checking for it early in the year doesn't mean that, you know, the media and coverage can't catch up to it. And so that might give people another kick, a kick in the seat to get moving

on it. That's great. What's your next one? I'm not going to repeat myself because I just started raving about it on Thursday, but HBO's Betty. I love it. Young women skateboarding in New York City. It just purely makes me happy. And TV should do that sometimes. And most things in the world don't do that.

So I just implore people to check it out. I love it. I'm going to go Ozark, which was the other show that was returning that I was talking about. I think it was also, I mean, aside from the fact that I'm a big Ozark fan, and it introduced me to Tom Pelfrey, who I thought gives one of the performances a year on this show. If you had been watching Banshee. I know. I know.

I fucked up. I didn't. That's the problem. I would say, you don't often see a show get markedly better in its third season from its second season. I probably would have kept watching Ozark anyway, but I thought that the second season was this handbrake season where they were like, oh, so this is like really good and people like it. How do we make it sustainable? We'll just have episode upon episode where someone drives back and forth to someone's house to have like their same conversation over and over again. And I think that basically putting Laura Linney in the spotlight to make the show essentially about her this season and her relationship to her brother was a real master stroke.

And it's got one of the best episodes of TV, I think, that'll come out this year, which is towards the end of the season. So Ozark was mine. What's your fifth? It's funny. I mean, you guys know that my television diet is reduced compared to my critic days. So I'm not picking anything that we haven't talked about at length on this podcast. but normal people. Yeah.

A beautiful work. And maybe at this moment, in purpose of this list, the thing to say about it is, boy, it was fun to have it in our lives. It was really fun to watch it. You know, it was... Those last couple episodes, just a blast. Just a lot of laughs. Well, I mean, like, the emergence of two great big shining stars. Yeah.

It is always fun to watch, including, you know, the watch's own Paul Meskel. but just that it was a totally enveloping experience and it was a pleasure to watch. You know, we don't always talk about the experience watching the shows or the context, often because for both of us at different times, it's been even shows that we care about a lot, like Better Call Saul, it's often like catching a screener on a janky press site on a laptop, which is not the ideal circumstance, watching the show without screeners on my television, on my couch,

with my wife watching it. Like, this was a more complete experience, and I enjoyed it for that. And also shouts to, we joked about this, but maybe we weren't really joking, the expanded Sally Rooney universe. Yeah, I know.

Because Hulu and... CWF come in now. And BBC are like, let's run it back. And let's get Lenny Abramson and the same creative team to work on Sally Rooney's first novel Conversations with Friends.

And if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I haven't read that. What are the vibes? What are the vibes on conversations with friends? It's really good. I actually liked it as a book better, although I think it might, I mean, I don't want to sell them short. These guys can do it. But I would have said normal people felt like a more natural adaptation. It's basically from the perspective of a young woman who's a writer and in college and her best friend is they become involved in the lives of a slightly older, slightly more established literary couple. Well, he's an actor. She's a writer. And there's an affair. and there's a lot of personal stuff

and it's in Ireland and you know, our accents are primed and ready to go. I would say normal people as well if I had to throw an honorable mention or something to just be a curveball, I would probably say high fidelity, which we've also talked about a lot,

which I just thought was probably my most pleasurable experience watching TV this year. And yeah, I mean, Zoe Kravitz is incredible on it and I also thought it really threaded the needle between kind of the more reliable, invisible art of TV

that you and I probably grew up with and this sort of like, oh, this is just a really nicely executed B plot in this half-hour show along with some of the more more recent kind of flourishes that we see in television, whether it's splitting off from the mean narrative

to just track a supporting character for an episode or telling a story over the course of 10 episodes and for as fantastical as, it might seem to have a show that's about like a thriving record store in Brooklyn. I really would love to just spend as much time there as possible. I probably would have had the great in my next slot. Only hampered by the fact that I haven't finished it yet, which may be... Have you been cranking on that? Slow simmer. Yeah. It's there for me. I'm watching it and I think it's great. Um, outsider didn't make either of our list, but I take nothing back. I loved watching that show. I love

plotting about it. Um, I hope they make more. Peak outsiders pretty high. The best of that show is pretty great. And I think that you and I were on the record of talking about like sort of the way that that show executed its ending and maybe whether or not it needed to be as long of a season as it did. But those first few episodes were so good and such an incredible marriage of like hard-boiled crime fiction

with sort of a more fantastical horror, which I know you love a fantastical horror. Outsiders been very, very good to us. And then the other, thing, I mean, it didn't, well, it didn't make my list yet, but I outed myself to you earlier in a text, and I might as well share it with the group, too, is that secretly, I have been preparing myself to talk to you about what we do in the shadows, which is really great. Thank you.

Very special. Thank you. And really funny, obviously. So have you, did you start from the beginning or has you watched some? No, I'm still in season one, and it's a delight. And that's all I got. I got no excuses. It's not,

maybe season two would be on my list. People seem to love it. Everybody who's been talking about it, you're all right. Good job by you, everyone. Bad job by me. And that's great.

That has become the show that I just ask people when they're like, I'm looking for something to watch, and I just always ask first if they've seen what we do in the shadows. And I'm like, if you haven't seen that yet

and you're just looking for something to put on, start there. Well, that's kind of the thing. And this might be a longer conversation. It might be a repetitive conversation that we've touched on before. But there is a category of shows, which does them a disservice to lump them into this category. But there's a category of shows that kind of are like little treats or I just keep them in my back pocket.

And what we do in the shadows is one of them. Rami, which I really, really enjoyed season one of last year. But I realized in retrospect, I watched it at the beginning of like pre-production and production when I was in Albuquerque. We never talked about it. I think it's great and I enjoyed having it. We mentioned it last week. Insecure, you know, I've watched multiple seasons of that show over dribs and drabs. I'm not caught up at all on this season, which everyone did is good.

It was awesome this year, yeah. It's kind of hard. They're all such different shows, so it's unfair to lump them in together. Of those three that I mentioned, Rami is probably the one that has the most, like, serialized momentum. Like, we could talk about it the way we talk about outsider. What we do in the shadows is just so silly. Other than being like... You and I have run into this problem.

Yeah. We... It's like Chris Farley interview being like, remember that part? That was funny. Yeah. It's...

We're not going to do... Like, there is not like a mechanics of comedy podcast version of what we do that, like, is it all entertaining? I don't really know how to articulate. Sometimes there's like flourishes that are really great. But like, what we do in the shadows just makes me laugh a lot. You could talk about the premise and you can talk about some of the individual performances,

which were pretty uniformly amazing. But yeah, it's kind of hard to just be like, Dude, it was so funny this week. I could probably do that about eastbound and down. Yeah, I could potentially do that. But we'll save the great rewatch of that for later in the year when there's nothing else to talk about. Before we get into our interview, one other thing just to set up, Chris, the ultimate Hamel drop is coming this weekend. Dude.

On this country's birthday. So here's, I would say probably if there's like a pie chart of the things that Andy texts me about. right now. There's a couple. One is a couple weeks ago, I asked Andy if he was, if he had, if he had ever read

or if he ever had any interest in reading, an early Larry McMurtry novel called Leaving Cheyenne. Okay. I don't have the text in front of me, so I am paraphrasing. Oh boy. But it was essentially like,

nah, dog, not really into that cowboy shit. This is a very early novel from Larry McMurtry. It's like around like when he wrote HUD. I think it's part of that same series of novel. and it's about a love triangle on a Texas ranch in the 1950s, if I'm correct. Yeah, it was before he wrote Last Picture Show.

Right. So Andy was like, no, not for me, buddy. Then, like a week later. No, wait, let me just, in my defense, I have been spending a lot of time in McMurtryville. We even talked about it on this podcast. But it is, again, I'm a zagger when people zig. People are like, oh, so you've read Lonesome Dove. You zagged yourself, though.

I zagged myself always. I'm the loser here, but I'm saying, I say I love this guy, this writer, great Texas writer, great American writer. Everyone's like, oh, lonesome dove and like all the cowboy shit. And I'm like, no, no. I like his cerebral books about young writers and Hollywood types. And they're like, I didn't even know he wrote those. So I read, I just can't stop reading his books.

And then I read Last Picture Show, which is just a masterpiece. And then, shout out to Bart's books. I just found like a beautiful mass paperback version. bulging mass market paperback of the classic lonesome dove. It's 960 pages proud. And now Andy sends me text messages about crossing the San Antonio River with a cattle herd. I get it. I get it now. This book is about a cattle drive. These dudes don't even leave with the cattle until page 250. It is the ultimate flex. So you text me a lot about LD, which I'm also reading along with him. I had stopped after about like 300 pages just because I felt, I felt alone. Honestly, I felt like who

cares. No, no, no, Captain Call. I am your Augustus McCrae for this long, long ride. I picked it back up. And the other thing that Andy texts me about is Hamilton. Yes, well, Hamilton, look, we've talked about it on the podcast before when we both got the incredibly fortunate chance to see it when it was on Broadway. I think we talked about it with Jonathan Groff a little bit when he was on the podcast.

Sure. So we are, again, we zagged brother Zig. We like the hip-hop musical based on the... life of Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton. I know that's a wild, wild take. But it's also the second and third life of this show is

with children who become obsessed with it. And who really want to see it. And obviously, it's extremely hard to see and expensive. And now there's no live theater anymore. So the fact that this, the movie version, which for people who don't know, is the, they filmed the original Broadway cast a couple years ago and they were going to save it to be a big

release next year is coming to Disney Ploose this weekend in honor of our nation's birthday. So your children who love this show. Hype in our house. But they have never seen it, correct? Yeah, correct. They've seen what many people have seen. They've seen, there's a Tony Awards performance of the title track that is available

on the YouTube. That has been seen many times. But that's about it. Do they know, like, they know who Lynn Manwell Miranda is, they know who, like, Leslie Odom is? Or do you think that this is going to be like, oh, that's a lot? That's him. They've seen it.

Well, Lynn Manuel, yes, I believe many of America's children know who he is. Also, remember Mary Poppins returns. Oh,

yeah, of course. Yeah. He is a god to a certain generation. But, yes, they know,

and they know what, you know, there's a thing that kids do where it's like, oh, that's her. That's Eliza Hamilton. Like,

and that's just it. And so they know, no images and they've seen pictures, but to see the whole show, kind of, kind of a big deal. And I'm excited for everyone who hasn't gotten a chance to see it, which is most of America. It's incredible. I know. I know. This is really cool.

All right. We're going to stop there. So we'll probably have some Hamilton content next week. We're going to stop there. We're going to stop down for our interview with Sarah. Snoke, we have. Finger on the pulse, Greenwald, texting about 35-year-old westerns and recent Tony Award winners. This is who I've become.

We'll be back with Sarah after word from our sponsors, and we'll talk to you guys next week. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Blue Moon. Don't you think some once-in-a-blue-moon moments should happen more often than once-in-a-blue moon? Blue Moon is on a mission to celebrate and inspire more of those moments. Just like those looking for the special in the everyday, Blue Moon takes a twist on the traditional Belgian win. Blue Moon was created during the 1995 baseball season at the Sanlop Brewery at Coorsfield in Denver, Colorado. Blue Moon's founder and Brewmaster was inspired by the flavor.

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enjoying a night in, reach for a Blue Moon. It's the beer you can enjoy every day. You can have Blue Moon delivered by going to get.bluemoonbeer.com and finding delivery options near you. Blue Moon, Reach for the Moon, celebrate responsibly Blue Moon Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on the watch. I know you're calling, you're Zoom with us from Australia. I guess it's more in there, right? It is. It's early morning. It's 9.15. Is the world better in the future? Tell us. A little bit.

Yeah. What time? Where are you guys? We're in L.A. So it's late afternoon here in L.A. And it sucks. Yeah. But yeah, how have you been doing? We have a lot of questions about succession and sort of your relationship to the show.

But I'm really curious about whether or not your relationship to the show and the character has changed even over the last couple of months as things. sort of you've had a little bit of perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly has made me want to get back to work more because I miss it a lot, which is nice. Like it's, you know, heart growth. What's that? Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Sure. Like we had a Zoom meeting. I think the first time I saw everybody was on a Zoom meeting with 140 other participants with like basically the entire cast and crew. And that was, whilst it was really overwhelming, also made me go, oh, I miss everybody.

But then, yeah, and then that's just increased my desire to get back to work. But, you know, you have to just like a hurry up and wait, wait and see. Of course. It's kind of overwhelming to think about because had we been talking to you in normal times, I think a lot of the questions that I had would have been just the incredible jigsaw puzzle to putting a show this amazing and ambitious must be. I mean, I used to think that your production. your line producer must be the hardest working person in show business just to navigate everything.

And then now, not only pulling off a production, you know, once hopefully we get the green light and health and health and safety protocols are in place, but just bringing in the cast from all over the world. What's the vibe? I don't envy Scott's job at the moment at all. And also then recently, what it was, the Europe band entry for American citizens to, yeah. Yeah. That's like, oh, okay. I guess when I'm shooting in Europe. That's because we're great now.

Right. Yeah, yeah. They're like, you guys are, you guys got a two figured out. So since we're starting with the very sexy topic of line production, I sort of have a two-part question about it. Let's do it. It's kind of a two-part question. Two-prong attack.

Go on. The first part is a little wonky, and the second part might be slightly depressing. So I want to give you the heads up about that. Yeah. But I think you can tell what it's generally about. I mean, basically, Chris and I love the show and we talk about it constantly. And we are kind of in awe about the size and scope and the budget and the ambition behind it.

And what we see on screen, it seems like it mirrors the Roy's own personal budget and extravagant taste. When you are shooting in New York and London and in a yacht off the coast of Croatia, do you block shoot locations or is it just, well, episode seven, time to hop on a jet. I mean, in the old days, how did it actually work week to week on a show at this sprawl? We shot pretty chronologically, which was really great. Not all the time, but for the most part, it's like, okay, we've got this location, we're going to Croatia. So we're going to shoot this little block here. But we also, for 9 and 10, for instance, we're in Croatia for the yacht, but then also when Roman gets kidnapped, we use parts of Croatia there. That was like the only time that we really did shoot super out of order.

but once you go to a location, we sort of, we tended to shoot it out, I guess. Except in New York, where we're still in New York and those locations are there, so you'd come back to them reasonably, frequently,

but we also have like, you know, the studio sets and not, yeah, the home, the Logan's home. We have it as a studio now, which is a, you know, built version of something else in the city.

No, so just I, I have to bring the hammer with the depressing part now is you have this large zoom with everyone, Was the tenor of the Zoom, well, guess what season three is set inside the safe room? Like, how, I mean, I'm so glad it's not our job. I'm sure you're glad it's not your job.

But what can one do? And what is the current thinking about translating the show to this era? Yeah, no, it seemed to be like, which I think every work meeting in no matter of the industry seems to be, is like, we're working on it. That always works out. Which seems to be like governmental policy as well. Like, oh, we don't know what's going on. We're working on it. Yeah, it was, it was, you know, positive and optimistic because,

because of the fact of we're working on it. But I think, you know, we're sort of still in the turmoil of going what the F is going on around here. So it's a difficult one. And I don't think, you know, Jesse's a pretty, he's an amazing rider. And the riders have been working so hard. kind of creating this season, I don't think they would want to just compromise and chop and change. You go like, all right, the whole thing's pandemic related because hopefully by the time season three is shot and comes out, then hopefully this moment will be a moment of like, that's so in the past.

Yeah. Wouldn't that be just wonderful? But, you know, one of the things that's so amazing about the show is how it straddles that line of being about our world, but not being quite in our world. You know, and so if you guys had conversations about how to process these last six months or three months really within the world of the show or have you as a performer even started to think about that? Yeah, not directly, but certainly as a performer, I think, you know, we play wealthy billionaires

who are all white. I think you kind of have your head in the sand if you're not taking notice of what's going on in the world around you. But I think I read something Jesse spoke about recently, whereas if you put your hand too heavily on the scale, in terms of talking about that in a show, it would feel too heavy-handed. And I think the success of the show

rests in the respect of the intelligence of the audience, that they're just going to get it. There's a moment, it's one of my favorite little bits in season one, where Greg, it's his first day at work. He's at work, is at a little cubicle, and he's watching the, like, Welcome to Work. at Waystar video and it's talking about diversity and it's talking about how they're all inclusive and there's, you know, multifaceted people on screen and he sort of gets bored with watching it,

looks around, looks over the cubicle to see about seven 65-year-old white dudes with gray hair filing into a board meeting. And it's such a quick little moment and the scene is about Greg looking around and wanting to be elsewhere. But then if you're really watching, There's something else going on in terms of the subtext of like how. You can say one thing and actually do another with corporate policy and all of that. There's something so wonderful about the show. And it feels natural now, now that we've had two seasons to adjust and understand and appreciate it. But early on, there must have been some very crucial decisions made to make this show not about the world as it is

and not specifically to skewer satire-rich targets, but rather to make a show about these characters, first and foremost. and then everything else goes from that. And once you have that orientation of the show, it's allowed it to open up and to become its own thing. And then, I think, be in a better position to actually comment on the world. Yeah, that's right. And also, like, these characters are completely flawed

and multifaceted. But what? Don't spoil it. But also, I mean, we also love them as well. Like, I mean, Tom's an absolute, you know, but he's also, you know, well, he's kind of bullied by Shiv. So we'll forgive him a little bit.

And then you're like, so Shiv, we won't forgive Shiv for that. But actually, she's kind of bullied by Logan. Okay, well, we'll forgive Shiv a little bit for that. And then you get to Logan, you're like, okay, man, come on. But also, we know, like, something in your history. Damn it. We'll forgive them a little bits. But, okay, we'll endeavor to do better then.

That's what I like about, you know, like complex storytelling with interesting and multidimensional characters. also we like to we like to love people but we love to hate them on television you know and so either way the emotions are flowing but that's so complicated right because i think that often especially i think in the last few years i've heard this come up a lot more and and i've had conversations with folks about this with in regards to succession where it becomes like well are they likable like do i want to spend time with these people because are they good people or not and that never really occurred to me with your show. I mean, I just thought that the level of writing was so good. And I also don't necessarily

need to like people to watch a TV show about them. But do you find yourself ever having that debate internally or on the set about, would anybody ever want to, why would you want to, like, because I was wondering if you actually, when you see people react to the show and they're like, I'm team Shiv or I'm team, team. Yeah. I mean, like, are you like, you're not really seeing it the way I see? No, I think, I mean, I'm lucky I'm not Karen, because he gets people on the street sometimes like, hey, you're a asshole. Is it not in real life? Thank you very much. So it's, you know, I feel at least lucky that I get to play Shiv and so people can get

behind her in some way. But I like that they don't, you know, there's a character need to be likable for you to enjoy watching them. Like, as you said, we love to hate them. And I, I don't know, I think, you know, with Shiv, she's such a interesting and as was it before, like really flawed person, that when she's like doing something like the scene in episode nine with Kira, my kind of approach to that. And I kind of have to be really, really blinked about,

of course she would do this. Of course this is the right thing to do. And of course, I believe this is the right thing to do. So much so that I came out of it afterwards. And then when it screen, when episode nine screened, and people were like, I can't believe she did that. She was like, they had such anger towards Shiv that I'd forgotten how bad what Shiv had done really was, that I was like,

oh yeah, that is not the right thing to do in terms of, you know, what I would want to do as Sarah or I would want to be coached to do as Sarah. That's the wrong thing to do. But it's right for those two characters in that moment, for the like, for them to prosper individually, not as a group think, not as like, for society to prosper. It's just for them individually. I think that's what like the Roy's are about in the end. It's like, what's going to make, like, what's going to make the Roy is more successful in life, not what's going to be better for society. I'm glad you mentioned that scene with Keir, because I was going to bring it up as well. I was wondering, as you play the character, and as you have the opportunity to grow with the

character, learn more about the character and play her repeatedly, do you continue to play scenes just as an actor fully in that moment and in that decision, and that's where you are? Or do you like to keep in mind the totality of the character? because I notice that people, when talking about Chiv, they, you know, they maybe will point to a scene where she is, like, her namesake prison weapon, such as the scene with Kira or the scene, you know, the wedding night scene with Tom. But there are also these wonderful scenes where she's absolutely on her back foot. You know, there were a couple of Holly Hunter scenes like that or with Logan. Do you like to have both sides of the coin in your head or are you present in one? Present in one, but love to, because we don't know, I mean, we've chosen also.

in some ways to not know what's coming ahead in any of the episodes. So, and I really love that, you know, humans, we don't know what's coming ahead in life. I mean, if we did, we would have prepared for this moment a little better. That's been pretty good. So it's, what I like about that is that

there's a trust from the creatives, like Jesse, the writing team and the directors to go, well, you know your character. So you'll just react how we, you know, to whatever we write. And then there's a trust from my side and the acting side to be like, well, you know our character so well, that you come in and you say the words on the page,

and that's the moment for that day rather than trying to like, I don't know, I've never worked this way where I haven't plotted an arc or haven't known what's going to happen at the end, because I come from a theatre background and or film, you always know what's going to happen. And that's something so liberating to not know and to just have to remain in the present moment. And also because of the way we shoot,

with there is a lot of improv once we've got what the actual scene written is and someone like Kieran will just throw something at you that you kind of have to be so in the moment living fully in that moment with the yes the breadth of totality of all the different things that she could be in that moment to be able to go like oh Kieran just like totally smacked me down I've got to come up with something now but I was having a really intense scene like this you know thinking about the seriousness of something and you have to quickly switch. I think that's a very human thing, right?

Suddenly you're laughing before you were crying. I'm curious because you mentioned the idea of not necessarily knowing what's coming next, but one of the fascinating elements about this show that doesn't get remarked upon a lot, I think, is the gaps between episodes and what transpires maybe between an episode. And I love the little references to things

that maybe we haven't seen on screen or just like the exposition that gets handled in these really small, gestures. But I was curious for you, when you have a scene like you do say at the end of episode three in the second season, at the end, I think that's safer room, I believe, was episode three. And you have that incredibly emotional scene with Kendall, which is possibly the most vulnerable moment between the two of you and the series so far. And then there's, I think, in episode four, you know, it kind of spins forward a little bit. And I was curious whether or not,

like, in terms of continuity for character, you think much about what transpires between these episodes or between these scripts even, because I would imagine for anybody you have a moment like that with your brother and you probably think about it for a week or you think about it for two weeks. But the next time we see you, you're back at it with, you know, with vigor. And I was wondering whether or not there's much writing that goes on in your head in between the episodes. There is a little. And it's great because we're kind of given liberty to use our imaginations as much as we want and as much as is useful. So if there is any improv or we're just on a wide shot here, but we'll be probably, we're coming into coverage,

but we're shooting over there, but obviously you need to talk. You're not sitting in the middle of a living room, and one hello to somebody and then that's it. But the liberty of being able to create an invent with your imagination and put in those histories of like, oh yeah, how is that, you know, whatever it was, two days ago, three days ago.

Then like, if it gets into the show, that's the thing that's real. And even just by saying it, it creates it as real for that moment. So I guess I don't like come into episode four and think about what's, you know, diligently what's transpired since. But if it kind of comes to me in a moment of imagination, then that's the decision of reality. There's no much freedom and flexibility in that. But then also there was an episode where Shiv had a moment and she was catching up with a friend,

which I don't know. know if that sounds weird to you because it sounded weird to me. She had a friend from college. And we did like the read-through with it. And Jesse afterwards was like, I don't know if this works. Like, yeah, something about seeing outside their bubble at this moment is not useful. And something about Shiv having, sure she has friends, I'm sure. Are they great girlfriends? Are we sure? We live on a Friday night. I don't know, but yeah, that was like, there was a thing of going, I guess I don't want to make that

decision fully, but I presume she has friends, but I'm willing to, you know, be open to the fact that she might not, you know, like. It also adds so much to our understanding of these people and the subtextual drama all the time, which is that they're actually quite vulnerable and lonely because they only have each other. And even if they, you know, whether they love each other or they hate each other, they're still being bound together and that keeps them all afloat somehow. Yeah, like turning up for, um, can be.

kids' birthday in like the second episode or first episode. Kendall has kids? I'm sorry. Yeah. And we're there and I was like, we're walking around doing the scene. I'm like, what are we doing? Why do they always come to their own theme park? Yet it's kind of believable because it's really sad that they can't.

Like, it's really nice. Yes, we're all really strong family. Of course we show up for your niece's birthday. But also you're just walking around bored as hell and. Eviscerating one another. things to do. Yeah. This really wanted to, but like pretending you've got better things to do, but you still

showed up. You don't. Yeah, exactly. You just really don't. So I think I'm not alone in this. My love affair with succession was not love at first sight. I was sort of a slow, slow fall. And then all of a sudden, the next thing I knew, I was obsessed.

And I wonder if there was a moment for you in the cast where you suddenly looked around and realized that the engine was humming to the degree that it was, because I admire the show and the construction so much because not only are your, you're looking. lead performance is so brilliant, but it's an ensemble show. And Jesse seems to understand that so viscerally, you know. And so the opportunity to put Jay Smith Cameron, oh, there she is in this pilot in the second episode. And then, oh, my God, she is and always has been one of our great actors.

And here she comes. And so now, when to watch the show, part of the excitement is not just what is the Roy family going to do next. It is what is this ensemble of actors a capable of? And the game of sort of high stakes pinball or ping pong or give me a game where there are a lot of balls flying in a lot of different directions. Maybe there should be one. What are they going?

Multi-player squash. Multi-player squash. The game of Australia from everything I understand. Yes. So was there a moment when you realized that that engine was humming and what was that like to look around and realize it?

I feel like the Thanksgiving episode because it was the first time that we got back in the first season. It was the first time that we got back to sitting around a table and talking, which sounds really mundane, but that was the thing that really, I think, made me understand what the show was when we first started shooting the pilot, because Adam, we had that, I don't even think

it comes up in the pilot, a huge amount, but we're at the table for Logan's birthday in the pilot. And he set basically a circular dolly track around us and had two cameras and just shot the hell out of it. Not even, we did a bit of coverage, but then it was like, okay, just have dinner, like just have lunch, just eat and talk and invent and create. And so there was all sorts of wild and random ramblings that were happening. But if it doesn't get into the show, then like wipe it because it's not real or use it again and see if it works next time. But when we got to do that again in Thanksgiving,

that felt more like purposeful and more concrete, I guess, because the pilot part of that was getting to know the characters and getting to know how we related. And it felt like the first time we had a rehearsal, but it was on film. It may not be used. We'll scrap it if it's not. But then when we got to Thanksgiving,

it felt like, okay, all this is up for grabs. All this could be used. And we're back to throwing something across the table, throwing something over there. Each of these characters has a reason for being there and a kind of conflict dynamic with somebody else on the table. It's just so rich when you have that. We had it again in like,

I love those dinner tables. We had in episode 10 when Logan's doing the, who's it going to be most? moment. Same things. Like 11, 11, 12 people. And Jesse's managed to write all these different objectives and conflicts and everything around the table that everyone has a reason for being there or a reason for being silent or speaking up. That it's just so dynamic. It's great. And everyone scores a point. That's the amazing thing. Every performer there gets their, gets their shots in. Yeah, yeah. Sarah, in your time away, because I guess this would be typically when we would be

ramping up to a next season of succession being released. So you'd probably almost be soon doing like press for it for coming out. Is there anything like a thought or an observation that you had in this sort of disrupted production cycle now that, you know, you're like, oh, I, you know, looking back on my character or even looking back on the story of the Roy's, I think differently now because I haven't been on the treadmill of making the show. Like, have you had any sort of epiphanies or moments of clarity about anything that you would be able to share. Yeah, I don't know, actually. I think, I mean, apart from, like I said earlier, that I really miss it.

Yeah. I love it. But do you know what, actually, part of what that is, is being going to go to work and know that everybody there is better than you in a, in a different kind of way that you feel challenged and invigorated and satisfied by your work to go, I know that, like, I get better by going to sat. to set on that set. And so that I miss.

And that, like, I really realized as well, like not having the intellectual stimulation from reading those scripts or researching a thing that I'm like, I don't know what that money term means. I'm going to have to look up, you know, something on the internet about that. And just all that kind of invention

and use of imagination. That kind of, that world of it I missed. And realize how much, I think, in this time. It's amazing to hear you say that about going to work with people who you know are better than you. It's the same words I heard Chris say about doing this podcast

on multiple occasions. So it's nice to know that it's a universal sentiment. I have to, and you've been very generous with your time, we should let you go, but I have to ask

all this talk about just letting the cameras run and of Kieran just letting Kieran run. It's got no filter. Is there a succession blooper reel? Like, could HBO just bless us with that in the instrument? I know.

There is. There is. I've seen, the rap party, there was, a collection of this is, you know, hinting at the season to come after season one rap and after season two rap. But I've neary seen it in the light of day

and there's so many scenes that got cut as well. And like, oh, I would love for HBO to release that. But maybe, you know, it's in the vault somewhere. The director's cut of Kendall's rap probably needs to get out there and some play. Any additional verses he might have had. Sarah, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. We really appreciate it. It's great talking to you. We love your performance.

We love the show. And thank you for talking to us from the future.