The Watch - ‘Top Gun: Maverick’ Was Great, Here’s What It Needed More of. Plus, Emmy Rossum on ‘Angelyne’

Episode Date: June 2, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about what they loved about ‘Top Gun: Maverick’ and what the action-packed movie could have used even more of (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episode of ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ (38:04), before Andy is joined by Emmy Rossum to talk about the making of her new series, ‘Angelyne’ (46:36). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Emmy Rossum Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo, from the Housewise to Summer House and everything in between. We'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis? which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, podcasting from beneath the hard deck. It's Andy Greenwald.

I'm excited for this. I'm excited. All right, man. It's just two guys lightsaber fighting with their pasts, with their childhoods. We're going to do a little Top Gun Maverick today on the podcast. We're going to do a little Obi-Wan. We can do whatever order you want, Andy. And then we have a special guest on today's episode.

Yeah, very happy to welcome Emmy Rossum back to the podcast. She didn't remember this until relatively recently, but she was actually a guest on this podcast well before her infamous husband, Sam Esmail, was a guest on this podcast. years ago back when she was promoting, Shameless. Yeah. And she was kind enough to make some time in her schedule to come on and talk about her new series, Angeline, which is streaming now all five episodes on Peacock.

I cannot pretend to be impartial on this one. This is an SML Corp production. Sam and Chad, who produced my show, produced this as well, along with Emmy and her producing partner. It was show run by one of my best friends, Alison Miller. Great team, obviously. So I'm in the tank for it. But I got to say, this show is surprising.

If you haven't checked it out yet, if you are thinking that this is another entry in our current crop of Wikipedia, the series, it is not, it is creative, it is surprising, it is subjective, it is digressive, it is fun. So we had a good talk about all of her transformations, Emmy's transformations to become Angeline

and the process of getting the show made. But that's at the end of the show. That's not what we're doing now. That's not what we're doing now. The other energy I want you to know that I'm bringing to this before we... I'm going to check Angelina out, but you know. No, no. I know.

I want you to know the other energy. I'm bringing today is right before we started recording. I got a text message that someone was trying to log into my Twitter account from Jiper India and I texted back, go with God. That was me. That was me. No, I was just like, enjoy it. You can have it? It's fine.

Take it. Andy, so today, where do you want to start? Do you want to do a little bit of Obi-1 episode three? I kind of want to just get into Top Gun. I desperately want to get into Top Gun. All right. So let's get into Top Gun. This Top Gun Maverick, you may have heard about it.

I just want to say off the top, Sean and Amanda have done really the preeminent Top Gun podcasting that you can get in this country. So they had a show that they did last week before or as the movie was coming out into theaters. That was spoiler-free. And then they did the 100 things we loved about Top Gun that just came out yesterday. And it is just a delightful podcast. And it's so in-depth and it's so great. Andy and I are going to do our best to be considered in the same company here.

I saw this last night in Glendale. Andy, you saw it. Well, at La Cagnada. Is that where you went? I did make it to La Cagnada. La Cagnada sold out. Oh my God, where did you go? I saw it at the Americana, like an American.

That's where I went. Yeah, man. It felt great. Did you get one of the steel tubs of popcorn that was branded with a naval insignia? I didn't. This was the first time in a while where I went, you know, because I've started to have to retrain myself for going to non-Arclyte movie theaters, you know, and so you, but you have to like add on the 25 minutes of commercials

and trailers that they show at non-Arclytelead movie theaters. So I was like, it was like 735. My movie was at 745. I was still home. I was just like, I'm taking my time getting there. But I got there. I got there on time. Saw the movie.

We're going to do it. This is going to be spoiler, spoiler conversation of Top Gun Maverick. First of all, I think that there is no better illustration of Pete Maverick Mitchell's stick toitiveness and tenacity than you getting it together and seeing that movie. Because we had a plan on the record, we talked about on the podcast that we were going to go together. And I thought that we would see it with you sitting in front of me and I would be I would be goose behind you and probably meet a similar fate. But like they do with everything, the Boston Celtics ruined that plan. Yes. And so we had to see it separately. And I was worried,

honestly, about my own enthusiasm waning. And thank God this movie was the movie that it was, because it will not let you be sour about it. It will not let you stay on the ground. It will take you up to, I don't know, stratosphere? So here's where I want to start, which is, I obviously love the original top gun. You were a recent convert to the ways of Miramar. I was like very, very, very excited to see this. I think I had had some forewarning based on like the way that people were talking about it. And I took some care not to read too much about it or hear too much about it before because

I really wanted to have a complete experience. I don't think I was prepared for like the emotional aspect of this movie, you know? And that is not something like when I think about Top Gun as a franchise, but specifically as an experience throughout my life, um, sentimentality is not the first thing that comes up. Like I like most people, very sad when Goose died, very sad for Meg Ryan. She's got to raise Bradley by herself. Like there are elements of it that are sad. Her son turned into Miles Teller. No wonder. She didn't make it very long. Yeah. Um, but I never was like, this isn't field of dreams. And yet they, turned it into Field of Dreams, and I would say they turned it into Field of Dreams, like, very successfully. I think that's very well said. I think that, and I don't want to go too far down this road, because I really just loved

and admired this movie. I just had a great time, and I was so impressed by it, which I know sounds bloodless, because I also was weeping at times. I thought it was fantastic. But I also do think it's worth saying that so much of our culture these days is about the negotiation with our past and our past culture and our past selves and nostalgia. And there's examples of that sort of thing being done well. And then there's the most recent Ghostbusters movie.

And there's a wide birth of experiences and tries and takes in between them. There is a part of this movie that is just let's play the hits. Let's run it back. Let's force awakens it. Like literally let's have the Muppet Baby fighter pilots singing Jerry Lee Lewis in a bar. And by the way, as someone who watched the original Top Gun just two weeks ago, one of the thoughts I had in watching it was, does anyone even know this song? Like, what is this? Even in 1980s was Great Falls of Fire such a banger for like the dive bar scene in San Diego.

And then they run it back and I was like, okay, we have now just skipped the bonds of Earth, right? Like we're just fully just performing it. It did those things. It did the first movie again. but it understood on a deeper level, not just the connection that people, not me, but people like you and up, older people,

have had with the original movie over the intervening years, but also that the intervening years happened and that the people who love the first movie have had different experiences and aged and loved and lost and had like a full experience of, or in varying degrees,

some more experience with life. And I thought the movie was conscious of that in such a thoughtful and generous way that it had took the space in addition to all of the battling Gs or whatever that it did. I don't have the lingo down, I'm sorry, to be like, people die. Not like in jet plane explosions, but because they get old or they get cancer, they get sick. And sometimes love affairs don't work out. And I just found it so like emotionally present.

Is that insane? Is this pandemic brain? But I found it really kind. and I was so impressed that something that had this many chefs in the kitchen took time to add that seasoning. That would have been the first thing

that could have gotten tossed out. There was no cynicism to it. That was what was really special to me. There's a very familiar feel to this movie in terms of like if you've seen action blockbusters for any time over the last 30 years. You know, there's a huge set piece action scene that ends with an

emotional culmination. Like it ends and then there is like a kind of like high five hug and I've found myself, like, deeply affected by the last few moments of this movie, both in terms of, like, what happens on the, uh, the battleship and then what happens in Tom Cruise's advertisement for classic American cars and planes in his garage in the Mojave. Uh, I, I was like, oh yeah, this is kind of like what happens at the end of Armageddon or the end of, name your Spielberg movie, where you're just like, God, I didn't know I cared about

these people so much because I thought I was really here for the dinosaurs or the shark or, the, you know, or the saving the world from the comet that was coming at it. And you do wind up getting the, you know, building up these attachments. And somebody who's just seen this movie, seen this franchise for you. Yeah. Did you find yourself more, uh, were you thinking about Pete Mitchell or were you thinking about Tom Cruise while you were watching this? Well, that's part of the genius of it.

I mean, I don't think you could separate them. You know, I think that it is a incredibly cold, to be like Tom Cruise is a unique American invention and needs to be treasured and appreciated while he's here. But this was maybe his zenith in a lot of ways because it wasn't just returning to an old part. And it wasn't just returning to the old part with that same insane, I refuse to bend, I will not age, I will go shirtless in the beach football scene with people 40 years younger than me, which was, I mean, you should retire the word flex at this point. because it has been rendered absolutely obsolete by that scene.

There was something very, I thought, this is weird for him, humble about it? Yeah. The whole thing is a steel-tipped missile of ego. I mean, we know that. And yet there was some humility to his performance and to his embrace of the part and also just the emotional aspects of it. I was moved by it. I don't know. I was. I thought it was one of his better performances, honestly. I mean, he's never bad. He always runs well and sells the stuff. But he's self-effacing in this movie. He's actually

sincerely and believably romantic with another human being in this movie, which I think we can get to in a few minutes. And then I think also, like, you know, when you watch Tom Cruise movies, especially since the great failed transfer of power and Mission of Possible with Jeremy Renner, I always in my head am running the scene from once upon a time in Hollywood where Al Pacino is talking to Leonardo DiCaprio about the arc that his career is on and how he's going to start being beaten up by the younger guys and like what that means to the town

and how people see him when he starts getting his ass kicked. And I think about that all the time watching Tom Cruise because they have initially sort of tried to do this like Ethan Hunt will turn all this over to Jeremy Renner who will now be the new Ethan Hunt in Mission Impossible. and since then have just kept making awesome Mission Impossible movies where Jeremy Runner shows up for five scenes and is just like, God damn it, Ethan, not again, you know?

And it never gets to like take over as a quarterback. This movie had that potential, I think, because they have its beefcake season out there and they've got Miles Teller and Glenn Powell and Jay Ellis and everybody kind of waiting in the wings, literally. But I thought that they handled it really well. What Maverick is capable of doing versus what he needs help with, you know, what this means for like his relationship to his career

going forward. All that stuff was just really, really expertly handled, I thought. Yeah, I think that, and I wonder who was most responsible for this. I feel like Christopher McCrory, who has a producing credit and a script credit as he seems to on all Tom Cruise movies going forward, one of the underrated reasons why he may have that role is that he seems to understand how to articulate the alpha dog graying just a little bit. You know, it seems like there was an understanding from jump with this, that there wasn't with Mission Impossible during that weird, like, couch jumping hiccup era,

that this is going to be, I mean, it's in the title, this is a Maverick movie. He is the star of the movie. He is going to be captaining this mission. He is going to win. So the Muppet Babies were handled well enough. Again, this goes to the economy of it. There's a lot of craft involved in it,

not just like storytelling magic, you know? Sure. Mani Jacinto from The Good Place was in this movie. Yeah. He has been surgically removed from it, except for one reference to him walking in a bar and then you can see him like in class at one point. Is his call sign Fritz, I think?

Yes, or Fitts, something like that. It has nothing to do with, I imagine, his abilities or how great he looked in the football scene. It's simply that there isn't room, right? Like you had three or four broadly drawn younger, characters who served the purpose of the story about an aging flyboy who has one last mission in him. It knew what it was, you know, and it knew what it was doing. And there was something that was, like, this movie cost a fortune and it's making a fortune. Like, there's no version of

this where you're like, ah, this is like late period Kurosawa samurai shit. Like, it's not that. Right. But it did strip things down to a degree that I really, really appreciated. When we talked about me seeing the first one a few weeks ago, the thing that I kept talking about was how economical the movie was and how we've gotten so far away from that with, you know, needing to carve out 45 minutes for the traumatic origin story of every character. And we didn't have to do that this time, which I appreciate it. But this movie, it was almost like, in some ways, like a like a co-on, right? Like, who were the bad guys?

Never said. Right. Now, you could be cynical and be like, oh, it's because they didn't want to, you know, depress the box office returns in China or Russia or whatever the villain du jour could have been. Or it could have been like, it doesn't matter. Right. It doesn't matter. And if you embrace that, which the movie did, you win.

You know, it didn't do the thing where it's like, we'll say it doesn't matter, but then we'll put like, give them an accent and we'll be cute about it. No, it's a video game. It's an impossible mission with a black box and a perfectly fueled plane waiting to ferry our heroes who won't die. It was only until the last, last, last part of the last set piece. And we'll get to sort of the more detailed reading of the movie where I thought like contemporary blockbuster storytelling peaked in where it was like, you thought they were done, but they have a side mission to complete like that. But for the most part, the reason why I think you were responding to the efficiency or whatever of the movie was because

it was so, it was so sleek in its direction. You know, it was never like to do this Maverick must now go to Venezuela to get the one plane that will work. And on that trip, he and, and Rooster will become father, son that they were always meant to be. It's like, no, these people are all here. They've got two weeks to plan for this thing. There are obstacles, but they're going to do this one way or the other. And the sort of certainty of that I thought was really, really, really enjoyable. Yeah, and this character represents the old guard. This character represents the obstacle.

This character represents the new hope. I mean, it was very, very simple in its screenwriting design. And I really appreciate it for that too. And the trauma, you know, which needs to be in everything, was the text of the first movie. It was goose, right? And so we already had it. And it was legitimate. Like, we understood all of that in a way that I really appreciate it.

I also want to say, this might just be, you know, no disrespect to Kelly McGillis, who's a wonderful actor, but I was really glad that it wasn't let's bring everyone back, you know, just for the sake of bringing them back. The Jennifer Connolly piece, first of all, unsung hero of this movie. And did you remember the Admiral's Daughter story from the first Top Gun? Oh, that's who she is? Yes, she's Penny. She's the Admiral's daughter. Oh, that's great stuff.

Yeah. That's great stuff. No, so, okay, brilliant. So they sewed it together in a way that I didn't even appreciate. I was going to say give it extra praise that it doesn't deserve then, which is to say her performance is so great. It's so assured. She fills the screen.

She's no one else is Tom Cruise, but it's just like, you know what, she's been doing this for a minute. And she knows she looks good, and she knows how to play it with just a smile or a look. And you're in. I was just in from that moment where they meet and she makes him buy all the round. You're like, great.

And then you're rooting for it. And it wasn't complicated, right? It wasn't hard. There wasn't like some backstory or things. you had to undo or a third option. They didn't overdo her kid. It was great. So I feel like this movie gave us,

gave us so, so much, right? I thought one way for us to talk about it is what we needed more of. Oh, okay. So I have a list of things that we could have, we needed more of this. And you just tell me what you're just in tow on your list?

Or are you good? I don't, for everybody, I feel so bad for that guy. He must have obviously found out a while ago, but like still. Yeah, because also,

you know, as people know, they shot this movie three full calendar, years ago. And so at some point he was told, but also just I'm sure he appreciates the experience, but like today, Vulture was aggregating stuff from men's health where it's just like all the actors talking about all the times they barfed

and like all the stuff that Tom Cruise made them do to like actually fight G-Forces. And he did all that too but isn't in the movie. I mean, that's a bummer. Okay, go on. All right. So here's what we needed more of. You alluded to this. I wanted to get into this a little bit, but who were we

fighting? I want it a little bit more backstory on the ideology, you know, the needs and wants of this rogue state within what looks like Maine. Coastal Maine, yeah. They have to run this. Only these planes can do this impossible mission on. We can't bomb this from space. We can't neutralize this in any other way.

It was a breakaway republic of Bernistan somewhere off the coast of New England. And yeah, it's also that clearly. Medicare for all. But the head of state is Dr. Evil. Because I don't know. I don't do geopolitics and I don't presume to and this isn't the place for it even if I did. But I don't know many even like, you know, dictators in the world who are like, build me a compound that is impossible to scale except by the best fighter pilots with missiles that can only come alive

if you cross a certain hard cap of sky. Like that stuff, that felt heavy. I wonder if many managers. Santo's character was like the guy who follows Glenn Greenwald on Twitter and was like, are we sure that this rogue state is, but it was an imminent threat to the United States? Or also just like, I see what you've just told us all, John Hamm, but you're describing the plot of the first Star Wars video game. Not even Star Wars.

Yeah. But the first Star Wars video game, like of the era that I was talking about last week, where you had to fly down a channel and shoot into a hole in this fly away. It's fucking awesome. They out Star Wars out Star Wars. It was really brilliant. Yeah. That is an under...

I'm glad you said that. So we're talking about how grounded it was, but it was Star Wars. They kept talking like Yoda, but Star Wars is actually, guess what, it's cooler when it's real boats and planes. Guess what?

Sorry to your wall in Manhattan Beach, but maybe this is cool. I need to know more about the rules and regulations of dogfight football. So immediately when this scene started on the beach, and it's going to be one for the, for the record books in terms of like the reaction it got in the crowd that I was with was pretty pretty passionate. I thought this was one of those classic Hollywood mistakes where nobody

who watches sports was on set that day. And I was like, I'm really bummed out that Miles Teller didn't like chime in and just say, you guys know football is just one ball, right? So it was, I was happy that when John Hamm comes over and is like, what the fuck is going on? Mavericks, like, we're playing dogfight football to build up team building and chemistry. but I want to know whether or not dogfight football has experienced some of the same evolutions in offensive play calling

that regular football like is there a spread offense with two balls or do you play conservative now that there are two balls? Is it more like Phil Sims Sims three yards in a cloud of dust kind of thing? It reminded me a lot of Calvin Ball from the Calvin and Hobbs comic strip

where their only rule is there are no rules. The thing that I took away from it was there was a lot of joy on the beach that day. You know, I was impressed that all of those military minds bought into something that was absolute anarchy. Do you remember the scene in Ferris Bueller's Day off? It stops the second he's like, let's go play football on the beach in our jeans. I would be like, sir, I have a whole great underarmor outfit waiting for me in my locker.

Let me go change first. First of all, that is a lie because I'm sorry to do this, do you, Chris, but like last 4th of July, we hung out socially at a party. there was a pool, and within minutes of arriving, you were in your trunks, catching tight spirals in midair into the deep end of the pool. Not in my lease. Yeah.

Oh, but I'm just saying, like, you, when it was game time, you were like, hey, guys, I call skins, and we were like, nobody said there were teams yet. You know what I mean? Like, you didn't hesitate. You didn't ask for a penny. You were ready.

So I think that track. You remember the part in Ferris Bueller's day off when Jeffrey Jones' principal is in the bar and he's just like, what's the score? The baseball game, the guy's like zero-zero, and he goes, who's winning? And he goes, the Bears. Yeah.

There was a lot of that energy from Tom Cruise and John Hamm in that scene. Look, I mean, Tom Cruise is historically, since All the Right Moves, not had a great track record of sports representation in his films. Jerry McGuire, aside where he's an agent, but I just mean, like, when he is playing sports,

I am not super, super convinced of it. Tom Cruise is the guy who, just roots for the offense, right? Just like in real life. Like, I don't think he actually knows the rules of any game. He just roots for people to score. Right. And I think it works.

All right. Next thing I needed more of. Yeah. I needed to know, uh, what's fan boy a fan of? You're going to give yourself that call sign. Great. Is,

I believe this is Danny Ramirez's character? Uh, are you, is this guy MCU? Is this guy a Star Wars fan? Is it Noah Bomback movies? Like, what's,

what is he the fan boy of? That would be a fan man, I think, or fan boychild. Like, I think that's, I mean, our man boy, manchild. I think that he's listening to binge mode in the cockpit. He's got binge mode. He's got ringer verse going. Calling yourself fan boy in this movie, it's a little bit like the villain just being bad. You know what I mean?

It's just like, we don't want to offend anyone by saying he's a fan of anything specific. So he's just a fan. He loves life. Yeah. I was, I thought he was, I thought of the tertiary pilots, I think I liked Phoenix the most. She was great. Phoenix and Bob, great. I think, I mean, obviously like I liked payback and fanboy.

Those are my favorite call signs, I think, as a partnership. But yeah, I could have used more fanboy a little bit more about what kind of, what kind of podcast he's listening to. How often, this is what I needed more of, a little more information on how often do people have to buy the entire bar around at the hard deck? And furthermore, what is the quote unquote hard deck of Maverick's credit line? And does he, like the Navy credit union does not offer him like a special auxiliary line. Like if you're buying at an on base bar, here's an extra G just in case she rings the bell. It's a great question. And I'm of two minds about it.

I think that when you hear about it. Because I think he pulls out like a pretty serious venture card. It looked heavy. Yeah, but it got declined. And then he had to bring cash. You know what I mean? Like that doesn't get any miles, right? he gets no yeah he does not get points on his card so that's a great that's a great point you're making

I think it's interesting because the way he's described to us you know he's a man he's he's he's pushing 60 he's been in the military his whole life he has no dependence right and you know I'm not saying that people in the military are like very well paid but I feel like it's a steady life he's he's got a paycheck for the last 35th oh he owns that Belhavi desert hangar outright or is that a rent thing no that's the thing I was like he probably doesn't have a lot of overhead he could probably buy a of rounds for a lot of people at a lot of bars until you realize two things. One, he owns the largest private airfield in the Southland. So that's going to add up. The other thing is one of the consistent drum beats of this film, nay, this franchise is Pete Maverick Mitchell's disregard for the fiscal

sanctity of the United States of America? I mean, like if they if they dock his pay, even if it's just like to be paid out over the next century from your check and your pension. I mean, he's never getting out from under that. I mean, the plane that he is... Joe Biden can relieve him as many times as he wants. It's just not going to happen. The plane that he's funning around with at the beginning, it's breaking the supersonic barrier.

And he's just like, let's just give this baby a little more gas. That is what we just gave to Ukraine. You know what I mean? Like, that's just in a oner. That's just 40 bills. And he's just like, whoops, time to crash land in Portlandia. So I think that his financial situation is more precarious than we're led to believe. I got another question about what I needed more of.

Hangman being like, my name is hangman because I don't help out my fellow pilots and then they die. Yeah, that's weird. Let's unpack that, brother. And are we sure this guy would have the completely, unencumbered ascent to the top of the Navy if he's just like, my whole thing is I play ISO ball in my plane. And then also, it's come down to this. We need one person to save others.

Let's choose. Like, if you needed to have someone like dish out and assist on the court, you know what I mean? You're not drafting Alan Iverson for that. Yeah. It's just, you're not doing that. No disrespect to my favorite NBA player of all time. But that's not his thing. Yeah.

And yet, that's the role. Maybe that was a sign of growth, though. Maybe that's what he's learned. I mean, just a thought, maybe rebrand yourself as teammate. Call sign, teammate. How about that? Call sign, good guy. Call sign glue guy.

Yes. Always make the extra pass. I like that. I need to know what after hours are like for ham and Parnell. And I wanted to let you cook about Charles Parnell here. Probably low key my favorite part of this movie. That's what I needed more of. Briar Patch's own, Charles Parnell, Charlie P., an absolute legend,

a beautiful person and a beautiful performer who I was lucky to work with on my show. He came to Briar Patch from this movie. That's how long ago they made this movie. Oh, my shit. Is that true? Yes. He came on day one with stories. Yeah.

He was like, it was incredible. He told a story that, I don't know, it's not really mine to tell, but like T. T.C., very generous to his castmates. Very generous to his castmates. Dan Marino buying everybody watches? It was literally that. Literally that. Okay, so I'm sorry.

Charles, come on and tell me if I'm wrong, but he told me the story that he, Tom, at the end of shooting, called Charles and John Hamm to his trailer and gave them both something in a box. And he opened it and he was like, oh, it's my costume. It's the watch I wore on set.

That's cool. Like everyone wants to take home a little bit of their wardrobe. And he turned to look at Ham being like, oh, that's nice. And Ham was just like, he had tears in his eyes and he was overwhelmed. And Charles told me that he was like, I don't know why he's that emotional about, you know, props.

Yeah. Like, it's cool that we got to take our props. And then slowly he turned the watch around and realized that Tom Cruise had bought them the actual like admirals Rolex that naval admirals wear to thank them for participating in this movie with him. I apologize for telling that story out of school, but it was awesome. And he is such a good actor. And I'm so, Tom clearly thinks so.

He's in the Mission Impossible movies. But those guys had a great look. little two-man thing going. I wanted to know whether they go to the hard deck or if there's like an officer's club that they go to. You know, like, is there like a night of different kind of vibe?

And when they go and they're like, man, another, another quiet night here. It's like, at the old, at the old grill, you know?

Just tight, tight-fisted sipping gin on the rocks. It's just not nearly as fun. Wonder where old fan boy is. You think he's taking in the, the blade runner? Have you ever heard Jerry Lee Lewis? One of my favorite to piano men.

he was awesome. I would say that Ham Parnell and Bashir Saladin are just like, and he's obviously a big favorite of ours from Southside. Officer Good Night. Yes, those guys and they're kind of like Rosencrantz and Gildensturning of this whole movie and they're like just narrating it was just probably my favorite part. I thought he was awesome. He was so, he's just such a warm and funny presence.

And again, like these guys know what they're doing. It's not just that Tom Cruise has been making versions of this movie for years and, like, building towards this. They do the little things, right? Like, they cast well on the margins. And, like, John Hamm, whom we love, knew what the assignment was. You know what I mean? Like, he knew how to be that type of asshole. Yeah.

Not put too much mustard on it. Just be there. Not try to get more out of it. It's just a great use of him. And Bashir is so funny as Andondo, like, making everyone do the pushups. like why he went from this special stealth mission to just hanging out on the aircraft carrier. Unclear, not really familiar with how naval roles work,

but who cares? They were all wonderful, like on the sides. And again, relatively small cast for the movie, right? The few people they had on board wore the right hats and didn't need more people doubling up those parts. Yeah, there didn't need to be a new replacement for Iceman as like the new admiral. I mean, obviously Ed Harris was like, you get one day.

Yeah. But I'm glad they didn't add more and more layers of like this sort of sea suite of the Navy. Speaking of him, I just wanted to ask you, you know, the pilots take issue with this,

but didn't his plan sound a lot like less clients, more money? He was like, we can go slower, fly higher, drop bombs from far away. I hope they knew

what they were getting into because when you have John Hamm pitching you on something, yeah, it's going to sound pretty good. Like, it sounded very plausible to me, and I didn't understand why I wasn't going over well in the room. Dog fighting. It's the old wound. This is a little bit more of a serious one, but I need more from Blackbuster movies,

the movies that are obviously just going to continue to dominate our lives in the theaters for years to come. I need there to be more genuinely human and heartwarming moments like the Val Kilmer moment. Now, obviously, the circumstances that lead to Val Kilmer making a really touching return to the big screen and the way in which it was played are very, very unique to this movie, to the story of Top Gunn, and to Kilmer and Cruz themselves. But I thought that the absolute, no-question, emotional high point of this film was this

quiet, quiet, quiet thing that happened between two guys in a room. And it's pretty rare to have that happen anymore in a big blockbuster movie. I don't want to be too hyperbolic, but that's why any of us do this, why we go to the movies, why we feel the things we do about them, why we celebrate them, when we talk about them. It was unbelievably powerful in so many ways. They've aged. They've lived these lives themselves. And also the character is. are pretty unique to celebrate as well because they are the original frenemies, right? One thing that I was really struck by when watching the first movie was that he's not, in my understanding of it, as someone who didn't actually see the movie until last month,

I thought Val Kilmer was the villain. Yeah. But he's not the villain. It's just, I mean, he ostensibly is for the majority of the move of Top Gun. But they're competitive, right? And then there's something bigger that they are a party to. And that's also, you know, that's echoed in this movie with the rooster and hangman stuff as well. And well done.

but this idea that people could grow and change and their role in each other's lives having been in each other's lives is important just landed with such beauty and the fact that again they were faced with a choice right like what are we going to do here are we going to ignore it are we going to write him out

or are we going to CGI him or are we going to write the truth of Val Kilmer's own health situation into this story and treat it with dignity and respect and be gentle about it and they chose that path which I again with so many cooks in the kitchen, so much noise in the production of something that's expensive, it was probably

harder than it seems to make that choice. But I was just, I was just blown away by it. We go to the movies to grow with these stories and with these people. And it was really a beautiful moment. Yeah, I just thought between that and the way that they put together, and this is my last, I need more of the feeling I had in the last 30 minutes at this movie. And make that into a fucking Gatorade flavor. Like, from basically, you know, that last, uh, basically attack that they do on this underground uranium plant or whatever the fuck it is, that whole action sequence of that, that, you know, that pursuit, no music is played.

Even though they have Harold Faltermeyer, Hans Zimmer, Lady Gaga, and Lorne Balfe, all credited with various aspects of the music. And Kenny Loggins just waiting in the wings. And Loggins. There's no music during that initial sort of attack. and then there is some once I think it cuts to black and we get this sort of

more of the Mission Impossible action part when they get back to the plane or to the carrier rather and they land that thing in the net I was like this is great and then when fucking Tom Cruise and Miles Teller hug it out

I was like I was like legitimately like overwhelmed by that yeah and I was I felt the same way at the end when Connolly shows up, you know, this is a relationship that I've known about for 90 minutes of my lived life. Like 80. And I'm entirely invested in it.

You know, it's a bizarre thing. And maybe it speaks to Tom Cruise's singular focus or his mania, but he manifested something into the world, which is that he took on this mantle. No one asked him to 30 or 40 years ago to be like, I am cinema. I am American movies. I am that.

And I will keep running with this burden on my back. no matter what happens, you know, no matter as the industry changes, as tastes change, as budgets explode as a pandemic happens. And we laughed at him. And it's pretty preposterous at times. Yeah. But he made it so. And so we are rooting for him in this movie. But we're also rooting for what he's doing this for, you know, to feel that way in a movie. And like, you could you could go down a rabbit hole of legitimate criticisms. I mean, there's a lot of this movie that is silly or ridiculous or funny or don't poke it too hard.

I thought that A.O. Scott and the Times wrote a review that is factually accurate. Yeah. But bloodless, because that's not the movie experience that I had. Everything you wrote, I think, is true. But I loved the movie. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It is something else entirely.

And I think it's maybe the best place to end is talking about the beginning, which is the beginning, at least I'm sure the screenings that we've all seen, is Tom Cruise thanking us for going to see his movie. Yes. And no one laughed. Everyone was like, you're welcome. And also thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Tom. Did anybody, did you get any peanut gallery stuff when they were doing the credit sequence? At the, at the end? Or at the beginning? Oh, when they do like the little like freeze for like the people on the screen. Applaus. Like we were on Broadway. I just want to shout out to the guy in my by my screen who was like, you did great, John Hamm. First of all, it's possible John Hamm was there, right?

I feel like he definitely has been known to go to see a film with the Americana. But, how, man, it would be so easy to be cynical about this. And like I said at the beginning, like, I was worried about my mental chemistry going into it. I was like, I don't have my wingman. I'm not sure if I'm ready to be charmed into submission. But it wasn't that. You know, it was great.

And it's okay. We deserve fun things sometimes. Do you want to talk about Obi-Wan? You want to sit with it for a couple more days? It's up to you. Like, because we're riding such a high. And I think that there are actually some connective, there's some connective tissue between the experience of going to a big screen

and seeing F-18s fly around and having this sort of aspect of pop culture, nostalgia, mind for different emotional response. and sitting in my living room on a 90-degree day, eating a salad while I watch the third episode of Obi-Wan. And that's not a criticism of the delivery system, but I think it is a cute feeling that maybe Star Wars also belongs in the big screen every once in a while and that there is like a collective experience

that is sort of lost sometimes. I want to be gentle and respectful, and I also want to keep feeling happy like I was from Top Gun. and from talking to Emmy, I will say that the genius of Top Gun is that it has always understood what box it ought to be in

and what volume setting it needs to be played on. And this episode of Obi-Wan... Wait until you see on Paramount Plus next to your Miramar Knights. I'm terrified of that because it just got small. It made everything small. You know, Obi-Wan fighting Darth Vader I mean, this is what we used to do in sandboxes. Like, that was fun.

That was fun to dream on. And they're just kind of like bashing swords in a dimly lit sandstorm. I thought that fight was pretty intense. I thought that was pretty cool. You didn't, it didn't grab you? I don't know. I'm really confused by the show. And I'd rather, and I think that maybe, maybe it'll turn into something else.

But it just keeps giving us things like, like, Spunky Lil Leia that I, just don't understand. I mean, I think that there's an, I think there's an interesting metaphor at work in the, in the show about a, uh, a depressed 50 year old man realizing he's wasted his entire life and service to the Skywalker family. Uh, I relate to that, but, uh, I'm not sure if that's the metaphor. The Skywalker family. Oh, I thought you were like, I'm still fucking talking about these people. And I just don't think that's the metaphor that Lucasfilm wants from this. Like, we're back to Obi-Wan and like, what's Obi-Wan been doing for the missing 10 years?

He's still just looking after this family that never loves him back. I think my main criticism of the show is almost too predictable to even take seriously, which is that every time I get going with it, first of all, I feel like it's cut like a TV show. So there are way too many moments where, like, they're building up tension and building a momentum

and building up like, oh, okay, I'm in it. Riva's going after something or there's a fight between fucking Darth Vader and Obi-Wan-Kan and Kobe-Kin on my screen, and they cut away from it. They cut away from it to like, I don't know why. I mean, it's strange for something that's so cinematic, that's so gripping, that's so inherently interesting, that they would be like, it's important to jump around to the three different subplots and split people up and do this. Like, I find that like that really has been bugging me recently about TV is when you're in the middle of what is basically an action set piece and they're like, we're going to cut away and see where the other guy is.

Look, man, I realize it's all just one pipe, just slowing content to us all. all the time. But it's not, I think I'm beginning to realize it's not just paycheck issues that's keeping Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr. from TV,

from being on these Disney Blues shows. They don't belong there, man. They don't belong there. And like Darth Vader being a supporting character on a six-episode TV show, it doesn't, it's not working for me. And I'm bumping on it.

And it was interesting. It's an interesting experiment, you know, but I think that's, that the issue for me more is, is like, I find that like the way that everybody has to, this is going to sound really unfair, but the way that everybody has to communicate with Leah dumbs the showdown.

Even though the Leah character is not, not smart, but she is a kid. And I kind of want to hear Obi-Wan or talk about what he's been going through with big boy words and like talking about like, you know, like, hey, if you're going to make this show a real product of Star Wars canon and history, fine.

Talk about it like it's a real thing that. Have him reference stuff that's happened, not just like in these vague kind of platitudes that you would use if you were trying to explain very complicated things to a child. Also, Carrie Fisher's Princess Leia is an iconic character for a reason because of the way she played her

as a young but grown person who was brave and resourceful and funny and spunky. Most brave, interesting, smart, spunky adults weren't like that when they were in their seven-year-old shell. You know what I mean? And so it's not even a real character. There's no disrespect to the performer. It's just you are trying to soak up generational adulation for a character through an imperfect avatar. And so she faints towards behavior that we'd recognize later and be like, see, she was always Leah,

she hugs a total stranger and or isn't afraid when people are shooting laser guns at her. But honestly, what makes her interesting is that she would be afraid of laser guns because she's a person. Right. You know, I think that. And then there's the other part, which we won't speak to, which is just like, General Kenobi, you serve my father well in the Clone Wars. Also, remember that adventure we had that one time where we fought Darth Vader?

But let's not get into that. This is a short recording. Yeah, I know. Well, we can leave it there. If you want to maybe we can jump in and talk a little bit more about Obi-1 next week. Oh, do you have more? I would like to. No, no, I do want to ask you going forward, like, just, you know, Chris, you're, like, I don't want to say, but Chris, you're, you're management guy now, right? You know what I mean? Like, you've, you've climbed the corporate ladder and you're C-suite now, right? And so, do you feel like Darth Vader is exhibiting good leadership traits, like, in the way that he approaches? I mean, he's like, he's pitting people against themselves one another, and he's, like, going to see who survives, right? I don't mean what he's doing in the boardroom, because I guess.

that. You know, it's very succession. He's just like, I'm going to give you the company. No third sister. I'm going to give you the company. That's fine. We see that a hundred times on TV, even, let alone the real world. I'm talking about when he's boots on the ground, literally in the field, and he's walking through a village, and let's say there are 19 people in the village, and he just

wild murders, six of them. I just don't think the Empire ever really gave a shit about, like, approval ratings. You know? No, but yet, thanks to CGI Zach Braff, for the first time, we're like, you know what? Like, I'm a law and order for. voter. You know what I mean? Like that guy's voting for Rick Caruso. Like a million percent.

He's just like, I really appreciate that the speeders run on time now. They don't though. He's like, oh, the transport's late. And they don't. So I'm just saying like unpack that. You what I mean? Also, the one stormtrooper who's just like, tell me the story of your life random farmer. And you and McGranger's like, we don't have time. And the storm trooper's like, it's a long ride. And you know McGregor's like, my wife died. It was sad. And he's like, okay, rides over. Did Freck, Freckle? Did he go express at that point? Yeah.

He had his easy pass, so he was able to take the carpool lane. Oh, that's why everyone was confused. It's like the way like Waze gets confused when you go in the fast track lane. It's like, why are you in Englewood? Anyway, right. Anyway, let's get into your interview with Emmy Ross. We'll be back on Monday. We'll discuss the Top Chef finale on Monday.

I'm going to be in Texas for the weekend for the Austin Television Festival, which I'm ATX, which I'm really excited about. I hope you see more of Texas than we did on Top Chef this season. I think you will. Let me just in case you're just tuning in now to a podcast. That's not how podcasts work. A reminder that I got to talk to Amy Rossum, executive producer and star of Peacock's Angeline.

We talk pretty in-depth about the entire series. All five episodes are streaming now. It's not really a show that I think has spoiler warnings attached to it. I will say not as a spoiler warning, but I'll just repeat myself. Like, it is much more creative, fun, and surprising than you may think if you haven't already checked it out. It is about a obscure to the country, but not to L.A., self-created Billboard Queen, like one of the first people who was famous just for being famous here in L.A. But the show just takes a really welcome and inspired approach to what truth is and what subjectivity is, what fiction is, what fame is. and Emmy's performance, I mean, I say this to her, and I'll say it now even before we talk to her, is really astonishing.

It's really worth checking out. But also, it's just always fun to talk to Emmy. So let's get into that. Great get for you. Great gut for the pod. Thank you to Kai for producing. We'll be back on Monday. Are you salty?

Because the first time she was on was just my show. It wasn't to watch. Like, oh, what it was called? Okay. The AGS? Bye, bud. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere?

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Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. I am so excited to be joined on the podcast for the second time. Don't get it twisted by the one and only Emmy Rossum, who is the star executive producer, the public face of the Amazing Peacock miniseries, Angelene, which is streaming now. Emmy, welcome back. I'm so happy you're back on the podcast.

Thanks for having me. This is, so there have been other cameo appearances when your husband, who is the podcast's number one troll, crowdsources his incorrect opinions by trying to get you to back them up live on Zoom. That's happened to the last few years. But I think you haven't been on in eight years. Yes, that's probably right. And he and I don't usually agree on stuff we watch. So if he's trying to get me to back him up, it's probably not there's little overlap in terms of,

which is interesting because we work quite well together, but we actually like consume different things. But you also know, and I don't know if you share this trait with him, that the enemy of his enemy is his friend. So often what he does is if we say we don't like something, even if he also doesn't like it, if you do like it, he would rather us be wrong than he be right. Does that track? I actually did not follow that. Yeah, I got lost myself, but I think that in the show notes, it'll come, queen.

I will figure it out. I don't try to, I mean, my husband is a mysterious mercurial gentleman, so I love him very much, but I don't try to understand everything. No, I think that's. I mean, now we're talking thematically, like, about the show. Can you ever really know anybody? What a great pivot. What a great segue.

You clearly know how to podcast better than I do. That is at the root of the Peacock series, Angeline. By the way, I should also say from the start, we're obviously talking about Sam, that this feels like a family affair. I am highly compromised because your showrunner of Angeline is my good friend Alison Miller. Sam and Chad Hamilton produced the show. You have great friends of mine from my own production. John Lennox and Greg Tillson, this was a family affair.

So it was exciting to see everybody back in the saddle after the long pandemic making the show together. Yeah, and we started shooting before the pandemic. We got about six weeks in. And then I remember that day when we shut down. And I remember the various different phases of it took so long to get the show made at all. And then day one of production, the first round, I sprained my ankle and went down for six. weeks and then we finally got back up and then March 13th and then we shut down and then it was another 18 months before we got back up and I you know I'm very very very grateful that we got to finish

because I know a lot of shows didn't and this show had had a long path even before that there was it was on different networks there were different creative teams involved this has been a long long journey for you. At any point during this, did you feel like there were just cursed pink clouds obscuring the road

like that this was just not meant to be? Do you ever think that way? You know, I think this was kind of this was kind of that thing that you have

kind of really buried inside your heart, your like own little personal secret that one day you kind of get up the courage to say, hey, I'd like to raise my hand

and tell this story. And then, you ask kind of cool people to come do it with you and they say yes. So at all these steps I kind of anticipate and everything was so interesting and wonderful and deep about kind of discovering the nuances of this story, right, which on the surface are just kind of this bright pink confection, but like the brighter, the photograph, the darker the negative. And like finding all of that, like that juice and that kind of resonance was so fun that, I mean, I don't think I really ever thought we were going to get to make it.

So the fact that we kept kind of pivoting and stumbling and, you know, I think for a long time, I kind of quietly marinated on, you know, was doing the producing of it before I actually realized, oh shit, I'm going to have to go play this role. Like we are actually going to roll cameras on this, you know, and I've been kind of like working on this physicality and a voice and all these different things for years. for years at this point. So it was just kind of like in my back pocket, kind of like this quiet prayer

that I thought never would get answered. So the fact that we kept getting shut down felt kind of like, yeah, that's, you know, most actors have this thing that they really like to do and they never get to do it. And or if they do it, you know, doesn't go very well. And this was so wonderful. And we had so many wonderful people want to come play.

And then the same team came back after the pandemic because they loved it so much. And, you know, aside from a couple people that couldn't come back because they were on other things, we pretty much got our whole team. And that just goes to show how incredibly special everyone thought this was and how much fucking fun everyone was having. This show is so fun. I should say that at the top.

That's one of my favorite things about it. And I also just love in what you said that how every actor chases the dream part, I love that your personal King Lear has a pink corvette and giant prosthetic breasts. I just think that is perfect. Let's rewind the tape all the way back, because one of the challenges in mounting this story is that Angeline is incredibly famous to an incredibly specific audience, namely Los Angeles. And it's something that I didn't know until I visited here the first time, saw her, and said, I just saw this funny car and people's face dropped.

Like it was a religious experience running into her, seeing her in action. What was your first encounter with her and what was the path to it taking over your life? for the last few years. Yeah, and it really did. When I hear my, you know, one-year-old child go like, like, I'm just like, oh, God, is she doing my, is she doing my sound effects? Yeah, it's, you know, I think I first saw,

I discovered her the way a lot of people in L.A. did, which was through the window of a car. Can you hear my kids screaming in the other room? She's doing the voice. Oh, sorry. And I remember I was 12 or 13. I was in L.A. auditioning for the first time.

I was with my mom in a rental car, probably going to Burbank to Disney to audition for some pilot and probably remember what it was, you know, that I invariably would not get because I was never that kind of actor and just couldn't nail that stuff. And I saw this image, this hypercurated image, and I saw this woman and breasts and hair and mystery

and I was just, it's kind of like the law of attraction. Like once you see it, you start seeing it everywhere. And I couldn't unsee it. And I started asking people, you know, who is this woman, Angelene? And everyone, like you said, would have this kind of like huge smile on their face. And then they would tell me a completely different story. Oh, she's just this small town girl from L.A. Oh, she's this woman from Idaho who married this Saudi guy who paid for all the billboards.

Oh, there's actually 12 of her. They switch them out every year. You can just rent one for a party. Or like, actually, she's Marilyn Monroe reincarnated. Or like, I don't know. I, you know, she's a hooker. There are so many different people that said different things about her. And it just always percolated to me as an interesting concept of how could you be so

famous and yet so unknown at the same time. And in 2017, the Hollywood Reporter released an article claiming to reveal her secret past and identity. And the story that was revealed there, spoiler alert, the Hollywood reporter claims that she is the daughter of Holocaust survivors and that this persona, Angelene, is some kind of survival response. That story, she immediately shot down, but would not, similarly to all the other rumors about her. She wouldn't tell you specifically what wasn't true about it because she knew that it really furthered the tumbleweed of her fame. And that's why she's different than all the other influencers and is kind of so brilliant.

But the story that was revealed there was so moving and poignant and started to kind of formulate this idea in my head of like, what if it's this kaleidoscopic story of all the stories about her, the icon that is Angeline, this just being one possibility. and it's more of a story of like fame itself and the engine of fame and how the more famous you become, especially with somebody like Angeline who wanted so much control over her narrative and her story, the less that is possible. Right. And I think that one of my favorite things about the show,

and I think one of the things that really sets it apart, is that you embrace the subjectivity of your subject from the beginning. You know, we're living in a golden era of what I like to call it. Wikipedia, the TV series. And, you know, I think that it would be possible just if you look down the list of things released this year to dump Angeline in with that. Oh, it's a true story. But your show from the beginning goes right at the idea of truth in a way that is really thoughtful. It's very creative. But it goes back to the other word you said, it's fun. And I feel like all of those elements were necessary to making the story and to bringing it to life on the screen. How it seems

like that subjectivity was baked in from the beginning in terms of what interested you about her. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting because Angeline speaks in sound bites. That's how she expresses herself. She has stories that kind of change. Sometimes she tells it this way, sometimes. But like a lot of her interviews or even just speaking to her sound like sound bites. But within those soundbites, there is incredible emotional truth, regardless of how the facts of the story change. And I just found that there was somehow more truth emotionally in the stories that she tells, in her self-mythologizing, than all of these other people that had tried to kind of co-opt her narrative, diminish her own her, capture her, and shrink her down to something that you. could write in one sentence of a logline of someone's life because we are not, right? Like a black and white list of things that have happened to us or our parents' trauma or we may be

those things, but we are also our own creation. And Angelene really existed and formed herself at a time before the internet kind of blew up when you could really, especially in a town like L.A., separate from the historical facts of your life. determine yourself. And although there was incredible kind of moving poignancy in the article in the Hollywood Reporter for me as a Jewish woman, somebody who has been threatened as a Jewish woman because of my Jewishness, I think for me, the possibility of Angeline having been kind of created or born out of, I mean, she herself says that fame is survival, that her reason for being, being Angeline is survival. She doesn't specifically attribute that to just one thing. And I think that

the complexity of that idea for me was really interesting. There's incredible poignancy and depth and nuance in what she's saying, even if she's, you know, saying it in this way that just kind of gets your attention and then you just, you don't look away. You know, like it's just like, it's just like this, it's like you, it's like you just can't look away. And then suddenly she's really getting your brain thinking. Like, whole, this woman is very smart. Well, I also love what you're saying, because that used to be the point. Like, that almost was the American dream. You could lose yourself and be anything you wanted. And that was the promise of this country, let alone the promise of Hollywood. And we're living in a moment when, in fact, it's almost the opposite, that the point is

to amplify your innermost, quote unquote, truths or potentially trauma. And that becomes your identity. And I think one of the strongest choices that you and your collaborators made creatively was you put the origin story at the end. It seems simple. It seems topsy-turvy, but it is so powerful in how it unfolds because we've spent four episodes, four hours, essentially, with the different versions of reality that Angelina inhabits. And at the end, we see what might be the truth. But at this point, we understand the narrative and we understand the heightened nature of and we understand who she is and what matters more. and you dance through it with the spaceship. You touch on it, but it's treated in a way that is surprising and I think very poignant.

Well, thank you. I think also, I mean, you know, Lucy Terniak, our director and Allison who wrote it, you know, I think the idea behind also the production design for that was that we want to steep you in this idea that there could be just as much truth emotionally in fantasy. and in fact more poignancy and more magic. And that could be a place that you would prefer to live. I think that the allure of losing yourself in fantasy, hopefully, you know, at the moments when people are pushing too hard on her,

she kind of like rips you out of that in the story and transports you to descending from a pink moon on a dance number. This is how I see myself. I'm young and fabulous. Or, you know, an out-of-body experience. this is what it feels like steeping you in that and kind of like really going into that kind of inspired by her own art.

She does art and she has these magazines that are kind of very barborella imagery and so kind of pulling from some of those as a tribute to her because I think we were I think we were really moved by her story and yes it did absolutely take over my life.

It also took over your life physically, not just a sprain ankle at the beginning, but you're the type of acting that you did here. And it's just, first of all, I should have said this at the beginning. Congratulations. The performance is amazing throughout. But it is transforming, it's transforming, you know. And I wondered what your personal physical experience was like changing your body and your face and your voice for hours every day to find the truth of someone else. That almost seems contradictory, right? to add these layers to yourself to, well, digging into someone's psyche.

What was that process like for you as an actor who's done so much work, but at least in my experience of watching you, generally without rubber on your body? Yeah. Well, it's really hard and I didn't get to the, I didn't get to the do the prosthetics until I'd probably been working on the inner life of the character and the outer presentation of how that would feel probably for about two years. So, you know, listening to, there are like this character, you know, ages over a 50-year process. And I think, you know, there is hundreds of hours of videotape from the time she's in her like 20s until now, which historically is in her 70s, but she would say that age isn't, you know, doesn't exist.

And so going through all of those with Julia Crockett, my movement coach, and who I'd never worked with a movement coach before, but I was like, I can't analyze this. I don't know how to find this thing in my body. You know, figuring out at what age the shoulders start to get really kind of higher, right? Because you're carrying more weight. You've been carrying that. How the body changes as she physically, you know, cosmetically alters her body over time.

the kind of and looking through video, right, because there are, there are videos that show many, many hours and hours and hours of interviews. And at moments, like on the Wally George interview, where these kind of gross guys are hitting at her, you'll notice that her face kind of twitches and her shoulder goes and you kind of notice these little poke-throughs in an interview of like, oh, that's a moment of, that's a moment of real discomfort. And that's how this person, that's how she expresses it. That's how it comes through the body. Okay.

So every time, then you come up with like a list of cues. This is almost like a psychological or body autopsy, right? And so you go, okay, well, these are my, these are my things. This is how, this is a hand thing. This is it. And you'll give all of the little movements names. And she also says she idolizes a Barbie. So I bought a Barbie doll and I said, okay, a Barbie only moves linearly.

It can't move like this. It doesn't move. So what would it be like if I made my body do that? So I would just do that for hours. And then I would go through the script and I would say, okay, well, this is a moment where it's discomfort. Could I try a flick here? Could I try? Like, how does that feel in my body?

And then just doing it for a thousand. And same vocally, right? If you analyze kind of a vocal pattern, you'll see, oh, she speeds up here. She slows down here. She goes hard here. She seems to go out of the voice here. And then she goes back in. So like figuring out what the different modalities are and what they could say psychologically,

emotionally about the person to try to understand somebody who wants to be so unknowable. It's incredible to hear you talk about all the technical requirements, you know, just knowing where your body is, knowing which tools to use at any given moment when the final product is, A, seamless, but B, the most powerful special effect, I think, From you is your eyes throughout because, you know, I'm looking at you right now. I've seen you perform as other people in other projects. Your eyes are completely different in this. And I don't think it's because of the prosthetics.

It is you are you are manifesting someone else in that moment. And I'm so interested in that, I mean, maybe this is, maybe this is too broad a question because this is really just saying what is acting on some level. But the collision between the technical, the mechanical, the physical and the, the, the, the, knowable, right? The magic on the moment or what you're bringing emotionally to it on the day. It's such an incredible exercise in that, in the marriage between those two aspects of the craft. There was a question in there. I think it ended on a compliment, but somewhere like 40% through there was a question. So if you just want to run back the tape, we could. I will take it. I will take it. Thank you. You know, it was interesting because I think the eyes also

kind of with time, there's like kind of more of a, yeah. I mean, it, a. more kind of a heaviness and like a, you know, the kind of shoulders are more sunk back and and kind of lats or tighter and the walk is wider. And like I would just, yeah. But I also think that like there was a, I remember that Angeline was very obsessed with the meaning of names and she says that a lot and talks about that a lot. And she thinks of herself a bit as like a psychological, but like more like a spiritual guru. She has all these meditation. tapes. And so I started to think kind of like about etymology and why the name Angeline, besides the fact that it captures Los Angeles. And it kind of looks like Marilyn and looks like

Marilyn, who's, you know, her idol. And so when you break down that name, you get Angel, Y, N-E. And Y kind of represents a fork in the road. And Ney is like reborn, Renaissance. An angel is a messenger of God. And so my version, after I had done, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of vocal coaching with Lids Himmelstein and body with Julia Crockett. And I was like, I can't have, I can't listen to this. I'm not being another person. This is my, this is a character.

I'm playing the icon, Angeline, not the woman, Angeline. And so my hook into it was quietly, I would whisper myself like a silent prayer, before action, I would just say, at a fork in the road, I am reborn, a messenger of God. And to me, that gave me the intensity of knowing who I was and what I had to get in that moment. Because I think every single scene is about survival and is about preaching, positivity, an absolute rejection of anything that hurts pain, negativity, sorrow, sadness. and any times that sorrow and sadness starts to bubble up, you shut it down because you are a preacher of positivity.

You're a preacher of pink. You're a preacher of happy. You're a preacher of fantasy. She is kind of like both Oz and the Wizard of Oz at the same time. She is like completely controlling every room, but also giving you the experience. And she is the experience. Did you find that the other actors on set with you and just people on set,

when you became her, when you arrived on set for a scene? did they react to you differently because you were both physically changed and you were manifesting this very specific type of energy? Did you see them change in their reactions? Well, the interesting thing is because I was there often at like no joke 2 o'clock in the morning and did not walk on set until like 9.30 or 10 after some of the processes, most of the people never saw me until honestly the premiere. A you, you, the real you.

Yeah. I didn't hear my voice. or see my hair or my body even. I mean, the closest thing to it, I suppose, but not even really because it doesn't look like me or sound or walk like me is Rachel, who you meet at the end, which was another huge challenge for us, kind of from a kind of writing and from a acting standpoint

because there is no tape to go on for the part. We don't know what her voice sounded like. And we can only go off what people tell us and the stories that she tells about herself and the various anecdotes that we have from different people, which kind of compile a very kind of painterly impressionistic story of her, of her potential origin. And I wouldn't be surprised if people who are listening to this interview Googled who played young Rachel. There's a scene in the last episode where you are acting against yourself two versions

of this woman due to totally different identities, and it's striking how completely disparate they are. One question I had, and I feel like you may have answered a little bit in terms of your vision of her as a preacher, the various men in the piece from various stages of her life all become insorseled by her in a way. Like they just fall under her spell. And there's a line, I think it's in the finale,

when the young Rachel is talking to her mother, and basically she says it's easier if I just sort of, I'm paraphrasing, but the idea is it's easier if I just go along with the way he wants things to be about her husband. That men prefer that if you just go along with it. Angeline's existence seems to run counter to that. She continually refuses to go along with what other, particularly what the men want her to be, want her to do, want her to say, want her to give them. And yet they fall deeper and deeper under her sway as a result of it. I found that really interesting because none of the relationships go in a quote unquote traditional way,

not just even terms of a romantic way, but in terms of any kind of recognized power structure in the world. Yeah, I mean, I see there's a rebelliousness to who she is at every stage of her life, both the character and the woman that she is. And I see ultimately this body that she's in is like her Superman cape. I think it's like a weapon. of your sexuality in a way so that you can be invulnerable. You know, when I was in that body, it almost does not feel human in a way that makes it

really invulnerable. And she talks about that, not wanting to feel, not wanting to feel pain, not wanting to, that being alive is pain. And that she doesn't want that. And that if any, if everyone can just self-actualize, that they can escape their pain. And so in every moment, I think there is this feeling that if you were to,

at least from my version of the character, if you were to let that wall down, let those feelings in that you could just fall through the earth and disappear. And that this is armor, this is protection, this kind of, whether it's a protesting of just sorrow

and being alive, protesting of mortality, right, and death itself, right, because fame is kind of the ultimately you live forever in a way. Or it's protesting the patriarchy, right? But similarly, she's also kind of playing the whole playing it, right? Because there's like a soft, breathy Marilyn Monroe voice slash Betty Boop, but it's got some kind of blondey kind of like, and then some. kind of weird noises in there that part of her presentation like some squeals and then there's this hyper feminine body which is almost making everyone kind of like OD on it in a way that I think places her firmly in control in every relationship yeah there's something that I found very powerful in the in the finale where you you successfully connect this idea of transforming yourself

just changing something fundamental about yourself, which she does physically early in the series and, you know, gets all sorts of commentary. And, you know, there's the, there's the painful scene that you alluded to earlier where she goes on the conservative talk show and it's just, you know, being physically assaulted almost by words about her appearance. But you connect the power and the agency of transforming yourself to a moment that is drawn from maybe her real life. We don't know. But, you know, of her childhood, there's a moment when she's locked in a closet. with a door and with a, sorry, with a chair blocking the door. And it's such a agonizingly captured moment, but it connected to me directly that,

that desire to just change something, you know, that you, there's power in being able to change the circumstance, whether it's to be able to be free of your home of origin or the traumatic nature of it or be free of the body that you were put in or just take ownership over it. It surprised me with how clean and directly that was communicated. And I think a lot of it has to do with not just your but the way that you chose to tell the story. Yeah, it's so tender, those kinds of moments of

kind of sorrow and fear. And I think, again, to come back to the emotional truth in kind of the sound bites that she gives now, she says, I have to be in control in my car. I have to know that I can escape. I like to be in the driver's seat. I like to go, go, go. I'm claustrophobic. I don't like to feel trapped. I don't like to be in elevators. I don't like to be in elevators. I don't like to to be in small spaces, I need to know I can escape. And when that comes out of something that is blonde and ooing and speaking in a kind of very floral voice with this body, it's just a very fascinating, very poignant, kind of profound and also kind of oddly self-aware, very, very deeply honest.

So, you know, when people would say like, oh, she's, you know, not honest. I think she's honest in the way that she can be. I think she is very, very honest in, and it's using words and imagery and is kind of her life. She's telling you the truth through a fable. And so in that way, kind of like big fish or like Pan's Labyrinth or like whatever, like we would talk about these kind of stories where people kind of escape. and what that would feel like and how to do that. I hope this isn't a spoiler to say that there is an illusion at the very end of the series

to her potentially making a cameo appearance herself, the real angeline. I hope people don't mind me saying, hope you as executive producer don't mind me saying that does not come to be. Was it, did you hope that it would? Did it come close? What behind the scenes stuff went on in terms of your actual interactions with the real Angelene up to and including involving her more directly in the production? Yeah, I think we always had hoped that that would be the case.

There was definitely a version of it that ended that way that she read, approved, agreed to. We didn't get to shoot it because of the pandemic. And then she was an EP on the show for three years. She gave us her life rights, allowed us to re-record all of her songs, her images, met with me, Alison, Lucy. And then ultimately, she had a change of heart. It was never really messaged to me exactly why that was. It seems like she's a rebel and she does whatever feels right to her.

I know that she's making her own documentary and, you know, I'm looking forward to seeing that for sure. Obviously, after spending this many years, I'm like literally her number one fan, right? But I think ultimately there is always a risk when playing a real person that the creative interpretation of the character doesn't line up with how they see themselves. I imagine that for somebody like her, for whom control of the narrative and the image is so important, paramount, I imagine that's very uncomfortable and I have a lot of empathy. Yeah, and I think it's also worth noting that you embrace this role, which you transformed yourself for, but there's a sense of play that's baked in and a sense of unreliability and a sense of subjectivity and that you're not really her and that these aren't really these people, and maybe none of this is true.

It's part of the show in a way that I think is really both honest to who she is, but also in a way very respectful of who she continues to be. Yeah, and we met how we had a, our first meeting was like a four-hour dinner. And I loved meeting her. I thought she was fascinating. I remember she had very intense hummingbird energy, almost like she can simultaneously be very fast moving, but seemingly suspended in midair. And, you know, I asked her if she had any advice for me. And she said, I want you to tell whatever story you want to tell. And that way it will be. be your story and not my story. And I said, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm interested in all of the different stories about you. And again, she wasn't interested in specifically refuting any of the stories

about her. After she did meet with Allison and Lucy, there were specific things that she wanted removed from the story. And we did that. There were names and dates and specifics that she didn't want in there and we stayed away from those. But aside from that, you know, I'm, you know, I think she's a rebel and I think she's a mystery. And, you know, I, I'm, I really respect her. I think that she does what feels right to her. And, yeah, I hope if she ever does see it, that she knows it's an incredible love letter to her. But ultimately, I think she has to do whatever's right for her. I did want to ask because you've been you've been acting for a while. You were alluding to auditioning as a child and coming out to L.A.

and going to Burbank. You've been on stage. You've done musicals. You've done a long-running TV series. You've been directing in more recent years. This was a huge lift in a different way because, as you said, not just in terms of the physicality and the transformation, but you're a producer, executive producer. And, you know, driving this ship from the beginning over a much longer period than anyone anticipated. now that you've reached the other side of it, the show is out, I'm just curious where you are

in relationship to your career. What moves you at this moment? I think it's really interesting. You've been acting for so long, you've never had a challenge like this. And I think, as I said, I think you're exceptional in it. But is there a particular part of this that you're taking away as the core of what you want to be doing now? Or is it just blank slate? It's in the rear view of your Corvette, open road. I think life is always an open road. I hope so. It's been kind of a covered garage the last few years, but I take the metaphor. I know, I know.

But I think it is. I mean, I think that it was incredible to be able to make this, to be able to see it through the finish line, to be able to, you know, see it through every, every stage and to learn so much. And to have, you know, a company now, production company that's completely, you know, women owned. and operated. And, you know, we are, we are doing more of this and developing and making a show for Spotify right now. And we have other things that we're developing and features too. And I think that I, I can see credence in both lanes. I can see that I really liked being the root system on this tree. But I think those have to be the very special ones. And I, you know, I also can see the beauty and just being, you know, a branch on the tree, which I'm doing right now.

I'm doing a show for Apple, which is a wonderful experience. And I'm just a branch on that tree. So I'm liking that very much. But I just think the opportunity to surround yourself by people that, you know, excite you that you want to collaborate with and to have fun while you're doing it, to work really, really hard and have a lot of fun and just have a happy set. that's really, you know, I think that it can be really fun. I think that's, you can tell. I don't know if I read into things too much, but I feel like you can tell when you're watching something,

the finished project, even if you don't know the scuttlebutt or the gossip or whatever, like this stuff's too hard for it not to be a positive experience if possible, right? And you can tell when something is fun, not the, like, Judd Apatow, like we're just doing a couple improv takes for ourselves, but they're like, everyone is invested, you know, in it. No, not only from like a story perspective, but from like a production design, right? And Kate Biscoe who got to create all these incredible looks and Danny Glicker with his costume design

and just like created 700 costumes for our production and 100, over 100 for Angeline herself. And those are all original handmade productions with like sourced fabrics and some of them of the exact fabrics that he tracked down that Angeline wears and her actual dresses. So it's really the level of detail is compulsive and yeah and everyone had fun and I also think for these I just think that to create challenges for actors that aren't just kind of percolian efforts

for the sake of like doing it but actually feel like there's a reason to do it you know I remember Michael Angerano was covered in prosthetics so much that you know like the older looks the only thing that you could see visible of like my body and his body on those moments are literally the palms of our hands. That's it.

So it's, you know, you're so incredibly overheated. I remember being in Gower Gulch one day sweating so much in the contemporary day look. And Kate Biscoe was trying to fan me with one of those like little mini personal fans. And I just said, Kate, it's not working

because you can't see any of my skin. I can't, I can't feel it. I have two contacts in each eyeball. Maybe if you blow it in my nostril, like I can't. There's, you know, there's CVC piping up my nose. There's two contact lenses in each eye. The bigger contact lens is like larger and yellow for aging. There's earlobes.

There's a neck wrap. There's a chest piece. It goes all the way down my arms for aging and veins and nails. And it's completely, there's like two pairs of tights and you can barely go for a tinkle. So you have to really, really, really want to tell the story. Yeah. And I'm glad you did. It was also so fun.

You can tell. I feel like I hope people have listened to this who have watched the show. But if you haven't, it is really surprising in the best way. I think that's what sets it apart, especially at this moment when there's, there's frankly, there's too much TV. This is something people listen to this podcast know that I say this a lot. If you're going to get the chance, go for it. Do something surprising. Have fun with it.

Dance numbers. Yeah. It's just fun. Go to outer space. Yeah, outer space is just more fun. Yeah, I agree. I mean, thank you for coming to talk to me about it. Congratulations on all of the work in front of the camera and behind it.

And sorry to bring it back to this, this feels like the patriarchy winning in a way I'm not personally comfortable with. But let me just say that if and when your husband comes back on at the end of the year, please also submit your list. So we can at least give it voice. So it's not an afterthought. So he's not just turning to it for cred like he often does. he also hates X. He has said that. He usually doesn't say that when you're in the same room, but he, you know, I feel like your voice, you need to, your voice needs to be heard in this as well, much like Angeline's voice was heard in the larger production.

So. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.