The Watch - TV News Grab Bag, an 'Andor' Syllabus, and ‘The Narrow Road to the Deep North’

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about some TV news that cropped up during the week, including Bill Hader making a Jonestown series for HBO (3:28) and the just-released trailer for Jesse Armstrong’s new TV movie, ‘Mountainhead’ (12:36). Then Chris talks about the show ‘Sandbaggers,’ which he discovered while researching ‘Andor’ (28:18), before they discuss ‘The Narrow Road to the Deep North,’ an under-the-radar show starring Jacob Elordi that was just released on Prime Video (39:14). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Senior Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production: Marcelino Ortiz Video Editing: Stefano Sanchez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He just found out what Jacob Allorty looks like. It's Andy Greenwald. It's not wrong. Yeah. I know it's not. I did see...

I just had a little Australian accent come out. Did you? Nah. I saw Priscilla. Yeah. He was in that. Andy, today we are talking about a bunch of different. stuff. We have some mailbag questions. This is

what it's like working with CR. I get a text that says, Popery. I think I said a text that was like, should we cancel the show? I'm a little bit underwater with a couple of other things. You know, Jimmy Butler's pelvic contusion was of great concern to me, as is the continuing box

office of sinners. So I've got my hands in a lot of different dots. You're across a lot. Plus, you're looking at the markets. You're a little worried. No, I'm fine. Everybody keeps making jokes about my exposure to this situation. I think. It's very limited. People know that you're kind of a live, live fast, die young kind of guy.

I will tell you this. The last check I write will bounce. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? When I die, it's going to be, that will be the overdraft. Exactly. I don't, I think people think that you're more liquid than you are, is what I mean. You know what I mean?

Like, you're across a lot. No, I am liquid, but you're implying that I have everything exposed to the opposite of the favor. Yeah, I think you have a lot of exposure. Exposure. Okay. That's my favorite word for you. But I could like, I could buy you out right now.

Yeah? Of this podcast? What is my share of this podcast? Like, by the numbers? You've been diluted like the social network. So many times. Kai and I are actually the major show. You guys are equity partners.

And I'm just going to, no, there's a bunch of stuff I want to talk to you about today. Sometimes life imitates art. And sometimes art imitates art that's sort of imitating life and art. So in a story ripped from. from the screenplay pages of the studio. Yes. It was announced this week that Bill Hader will be making his return.

We're getting into it. Okay, let's go. Oh, did you want to just have some... Oh, I thought you'd be like, we're going to talk about a bunch of stuff, and or's out, but you don't need to do that. Okay, yeah. I'm barely a stakeholder in this podcast at this point,

so you run the show. I want to talk about Hater. I feel like everybody knows what we're doing here. Okay. And we're here for the rebellion, and we're here to protect Jackson, and we're doing one thing right. Yeah, and as the biggest fans of Sega's

1980s driving game Outrun, this is our moment. Right? It's not just that we were fans. We were like, what happens next? The pink car keeps driving. Do you want to talk about this first? Go ahead.

I want to do Hater. I just thought this is so funny, but also so awesome because Bill Hater's coming back to the small screen. I'm sure I have a feeling Bill Hader will make a movie or something before this show comes out, but it was announced that Hater

and Daniel Zellman, who did damages and bloodline or worked on those shows where they are collaborating on a Jones Town a Jonestown show which is obviously what was referred to in the pilot of the studio

where Seth Rogen's character Matt is trying to get Martin Scorsese to make a Jonestown movie or actually he's making him Jones Town movie he's trying to make it into a Kool-Aid movie which is what the mandate of his new boss demands like he wants a Barbie

but he wants it to be Kool-Lade Yeah. It's just, I'd forgotten that Bill Hader is one of our best TV makers, and I'm just excited to have him back in the mix. It's interesting that he's collaborating with Zellman and Zellman's roots in perhaps a little bit more quasi-traditional prestige television. Yes. Barry seemed often to be playing with no rulebook. Barry often had, you know, comedy writers working on it, but like writing in a very dramatic way. There were very funny things that were happening in the most terrified. and violent moments of Barry. I think that this is good material for Hater. Yeah, so where are you, I think this is really exciting. I think Bill Hader is one of... Where am I on Jonestown?

Pro? How thirsty are you? I genuinely think Bill Hader is one of the most exciting creative people in hashtag this town. And so anytime he wants to do anything, I'm paying attention. And I think this is awesome. It's a very, you know, it's a big project, but it seems like something that could really suit his sensibilities. It could cause him to potentially stretch.

a little bit as a director and as an actor, which he's rumored to be doing in this as well. I love it. Can't wait. Do you as one, as the third chair on the ringer's number one movie podcast, The Big Picture, do you have any cinematic Lord of Letterboxed? Oh, why is he doing this instead of making

the big movie that he's clearly wanted to make? We can have both as evidenced by some of the other stuff we're going to be talking about today. There's a revolving door between the worlds of cinema and television. And I think people should just go where they think the story will best be told. Is that how you feel about your podcast buffet every week? The story about blogging, that couldn't come here.

You're welcome to spend an episode of The Watch interviewing me. I would love to. I'm afraid of what might come out. Everyone should listen to you on the press box. Thanks, man. Yeah, I am not actually... Here's a funny thing about me. Oh, okay.

Love cult stories, so especially cult horror movies. very much love the kind of like late 90s hardcore band Giana punchline and love the rapper Jim Jones but I've never sat down and gotten to the bottom of the Jones Town story The bottom of it?

No, just like a full documentary or read a book about it so this is actually it'll be like watching Andor without having seen Star Wars you know? Like I'm aware there's a big globe in the sky we got to worry about.

It's incredible. As a kid, were you allowed to have Kool-Aid? Not because of any lingering fear. We were not a big sugar drink family. Now, I say that, but I pretty much exclusively

drank ocean spray cranberry juice for the first 13 years of my life. So I guess in truth. We've, two things. One, you needed to as a relatively, I mean, not at all health conscious,

but like health conscious to the spirit of the day household, you had to, geolocate the friend that had Kool-Aid and cookie crisp cereal and like manufacture sleepovers. Cookie Krisp I always thought

was a bit overrated. I was just throwing that out as an example. I was not allowed to have sugar cereal big boxes of them in the house. I was not to have one for dessert. And look at us. Oh, but it wasn't breakfast. No. I was not allowed to start my day with golden grams, but I could have it as like an after-school snack.

I could have litigated that. It never occurred to me. Yeah. That's what a game changer. I, um, we've said this before in the podcast. And I used to kind of almost introduce it as like, this is actually healthy dessert when you think about it. Because it could be worse. Yeah. It could be way worse.

This is the gateway drug. Have you guys heard about Jim Jones? It could be so much worse. I'm just sitting here at home with you guys. A little five-year-old Chris being like, I watched the doc last night. You went down to the ritz. No, the, the beverages as a kid is so important and so hard to communicate.

I've said this before in the podcast, but my, children won't leave the house to walk to the car without a water bottle. They're Stanley bottles, right? I did not drink water until I was 30. Oh, yeah. It never occurred to me to drink water on the East Coast. Here's the rotation as a kid growing up. Minutemate orange juice for the morning.

Coca-Cola classic throughout the evening, especially if, as my parents put it, he looks cranky. And then the middle hours, some call them the thirsty hours, were filled with the only other thing in fridge, which was an ever-present, ever-full jug of crystal-light ice tea. Yes. Wipped up. I will say that it's just, I never consistently monitored my hydration. Yeah, that wasn't a thing. And I drank with meals or after athletic events.

What? You do it. Go on. Talk about your athletics. No, I'm just saying it. But that could be standing in front of a water fountain and drinking from there for two minutes. And that was it. You know what I mean?

It's not like I had my special Gatorade ever. my special, like, you know, electrolytes thing, getting me back up into the area that I needed to be. That was all happening in here. This was the nuclear factory, you know? And it was, you know what? It was enough. Yeah.

It was enough. These kids sloshing around today. I mean, I stopped growing at 5'7. But at least you didn't go to Guyana. So, and you were worried about today's podcast. So there's that. Great. I also wanted to mention to you that a very exciting

adaptation is coming to Apple Television. Philip Kerr's Berlin novels, which is really one of the great detective stories, which is about this private eye working is a private eye or is it a cop? I can't remember. I've never read them. I've seen these books.

Have you read these books? Zach B. is a, Zach Barron's a big fan of these. And I've read one of them a while ago, but is very lauded. It's a detective working in post-war Germany, essentially. And Peter Strong, who did the script for Conclave, so this guy's playing with House Money right now.

And Tom Hanks's playtone. I don't know if Tom Hanks will be involved in the production on a hands-on basis. But they're talking about bringing that to Apple. It sounds like they did a deal for that. But that's just a really cool story to bring to life. It kind of is a good segue to the next thing I wanted to talk about. Go ahead. No, just a point of like this is something.

This is a drum we've been banging on for a while, which is the, like, there are so many great detectives and detective stories, or in this case, a police investigator or whatever, historical novels, world novels, world crime novels that just are, it's just an instant ticket to a vibe and a type of specificity that makes for compelling television. And I think that with the right creative partners, that's just a smart lane for Apple to be in. Yeah. Especially with the success of slow horses. Just cast it up right. And like, because it really is just production values and casting and prestige that separates like some decent to good stuff on Acorn and Britbox from what Apple could and should be doing, right? Sometimes stuff on Acorn and Brickbox is much better.

Well, I know because often the balancing act tips in the wrong direction once you get to something as high profile or as perhaps overfinanced as Apple TV can be. So there's a, it's Philip Kerr wrote the books. It's about a detective named Bernie Gunther who is an ex cop. That's why I couldn't remember. He quits because he hates Hitler. I salute him. Yeah. Not in the bad way.

You know, like I salute him in a good way. Great, great distinction. This is you waving to him as he leaves the Reichstag. Good luck, Bernie. Hope history is on your side, mine frund. Is that you?

I'm just running. I'm just steering into the skin. There's three novels, Pale Criminal, German Requiem and March Violets. And it's, uh, I remember, I think I actually, unfortunately,

read the third one. Wait, there's 13 of them. Yeah, but there's an opening trilogy. That's the good stuff. Okay. But yeah, I can't wait. Honestly, not probably a role for Tom Hanks

says this guy is 40 in the books, but maybe they'll adapt something where he's like a little later in life. Colin Hanks? Could be. Maybe he could do the early ones and Tom could do the late ones. Look at what?

We'll just fix it for you, Holly. Sorry, Apple. You can send a check. I wish. What else? Let's talk about... Do you want to do the Mountainhead trailer? Do you have any thoughts on that?

I just can't wait. This is one of my favorites, even just stories in Hollywood. So Jesse Armstrong, writer, creator of Succession, kind of what's he going to do next? What's he going to do next? Decides to do a movie for HBO called Mountain Head starring Steve Corell, Jason Schwartzman, Rami Youssef, and Corey Michael Smith, who I thought was quite awesome as Chevy Chase in Saturday Night.

He's awesome in that. It's about four tech billionaires, Titans of Industry, who are having a weekend ski chalet getaway while the world falls apart and the markets crash. They shot this last month. Yeah.

And it's coming out next month? Yes. That rules. It really does. Do more stuff like this. I don't know how, I don't know whether or not Jesse Armstrong was like, I mean, I hope he gets to ask him.

Jesse Armstrong was like there's something in the water we got to get this project going I don't know how long he's been working on this it looks a little bit of a stage play so maybe it's something that was pretty easy quote unquote to pull off if you can get the casting rate

and I think so you know it looks like a one set shop but also has some of that acidic like succession comic sensibility and I cannot wait to see this just in the aesthetics too though like the luxury but mixed with

just the banana of the quarter zips that everybody's wearing. It's so thrilling that he did this. And I think you're right, the electricity of it. And I, it's unfair to be like, hey, brilliant creators that we love, make a movie in 10 weeks. Like, I don't think it's like the Ice Bucket Challenge, like prove you can do it. And he tags people in the credits of this movie?

Did Ice Bucket Challenge come back or something like that? Okay. Why? Oh, did you think we cured it the first time? No, but I think it's for, isn't it usually like I'm doing this in RELS or something? Okay. But I don't know what it is for now. But it's been a couple of years, right?

So it's not an annual thing. Well, the nostalgia windows are shortening because of the internet. Okay. I only know this because I learned it was back from my 17-year-old cousin's 17-year-old kit was ice bucket challenging. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was like, cool.

Is this like having a tomagatchi or is it like, are we doing it for, and it was for charity? Good. All right. But anyway, my other takeaway from this, as I texted you, Corel looks great. It does. He looks really good in four seasons too. He does.

He does. He does. He does. He does. It's Corell season. Correll, interesting post, I guess, office career. Yeah. You know, like has obviously, I mean, office is a while ago now.

So maybe I'm setting an unfair window. But I was just thinking about how kind of the similarities between him and him in some ways, associated with this major, major role, interested in doing the opposite. So for him, it's a lot of comedy. It's a lot of maybe supporting pieces in genre movies. movies or shows. And then for Corel, it's the opposite where he's doing dramatic work and he's, you know, doing smaller films, but then has kind of slowly kind of come back into like the mainstream with morning show at first. Right. That Space Force show, which I still like, honestly,

I think I watched a couple episodes when it first came out. I think we've all agreed to memory hold it. It kind of got memory hold. And now he's making this big push with Mountainhead in four seasons, which is Tina Fey's new show on Netflix, which is coming, I think, next month. month. The vibe I get it, and this is not just me losing myself in that lustrous skin tone, great hair and teeth that he looks just fantastic. He's 60-something. That guy did not drink cranberry juice all day when he was a kid. Well, or he found the antidote to it. Yeah. That's right. There's something we don't know about. What's exciting, I think, about where he is in his career, and obviously he's exceptionally talented, so that helps a lot. But often when you see people, especially comedic

actors, want to stretch their wings and do different things, they flip hard and they do things. Yeah. with no humor and no heart, or not no heart, but no, that won't allow them to, to play the same cards they've played for the first part of their career. That's why I followed Jack Black on his traveling Samuel Beckett tour.

Respect to Jack Black for not doing this, but specifically like Jonah Hill, when he does dramatic roles, cannot, you know, like won't be funny. Or Will Farrell took a couple of movies that were major bummers, or Steve Corell did Foxcatcher, right? And what's...

And Beautiful Boy was at the shot? Alame movie, but... Yes. Kid on Speed. And what... I'm respectfully. I'm doing a nice bucket challenge for that issue later.

Thank you for your sensitivity. He seems to have settled into himself and realized that his abilities are not just comedic or traumatic, but in something like a Jesse Armstrong movie, he can play all sides, and it's kind of exciting to see. I have a couple of other things

I want to talk to you about. Some stuff is Andor related. Okay. Another is a new show that just came out that we checked out. Yeah. And then we have the Mullaney piece. Oh, yeah. So I'm putting these wares on the shelf for you.

Which one would you like to go with first? I think just in terms of an update, I did want to say that everybody's live with John Mullaney. You really are... I love... You're calling in from Bengals Stadium in 1980 to WIP and saying it's 166. Call you back. Josison is driving. Call you back.

This is for people who have no idea what, it's not even a joke, it's real. As Andy and I grew up in the 80s, the way you found out about football scores, and you would listen to sports radio all day long and WIP, the sports talk radio in Philadelphia, would have

people, stringers, calling in from stadiums across the country and saying it's 1714 here in Cowboy Stadium. Back to you, Brad. I didn't hear that in the background, right? No, it would be like hanging up on a pay phone. That was KYW, the chattering of the newsbar. Just to bring it all home. Because this is just a free-flowing exchange of ideas. Do you know what the other thing that people, you know, the theme of

this episode is things my children don't actually believe, but are true, like that I didn't drink water when I was their age. The other one that just really blows their minds is that when we were kids, there were on the East Coast, there was something called Snow Days, which obviously don't exist anywhere anymore. So that's cool. That's not true. No, I just mean, I don't think it snows that much anymore on these coast, but, you know, this isn't a political pod. Is that true? Yeah, it doesn't snow very much. Because the planet's warmer now. Not to make it political. I just thought we missed it.

It doesn't not snow at all? Barely. Not even in January? Like, I don't know. Like, what doesn't snow? You don't talk to your friends and people back in New York and Philadelphia? They're like, it doesn't snow very much. Oh, okay. But regardless. Yeah. Well, we also probably have better snow removal tech now. Oh, you think big tech got us out of that?

No, I just think that, like, we used to have, like, essentially, one thing would drive down the street and make it way worse for the cars that were parked, remember? Yeah. But I thought you were saying that it doesn't snow anymore because the 5G cables disrupt the nimbus clouds. God, I need the government to get to the bottom of that. Why isn't it snowing? Anyway, the way, I don't know if Kaya will believe this, but like the way that we would find out that we didn't have school that day was a particular three-digit number read on KYW news radio between the hours of 5 and 7 a.m. And so you would just like wake up, you heard it that it snowed and you'd wake up earlier than you would for school.

And you'd hear a guy be like, school closures today, 121, 125, all Philadelphia Catholic and Parochial schools. You know that guy had like a full benefits package too. Oh, that guy probably owned a row home. But did he work for 28 minutes a day? Like what did he do? Reading the numbers? Yeah. I think he probably had a nice life.

Probably maybe he was in the Elks Club too. I don't know. What else do we miss from our? 161. 124. I think my school is... Do you think... Sometimes every once in a while

he would get surprised? Yeah, he'd be like, oh, they never closed. Yeah, 288. The worst was when you were... Get the little soft out there. But if you were 321, and they get to 320

and then they jumped... Yeah. God damn. I gotta go to school. Yeah, I don't remember they just didn't do like citywide school closures because a lot of it was road-based.

Anyway, what were we talking about? Malaney. Oh, go ahead. This is a Malini-esque diversion there. I just... So, we've been... checking in on this because I know at least two-thirds of the major stakeholders of the pod.

That's me and executive vice president Kaya love the show, but mostly like love the project. Yeah. And it's, you know, we, I feel like I give a lot of lip service to the idea of like, oh, I just love the process of TV. I love seeing people work

things out in real time. Everybody says you do that. But then we get on the mic and I'm like, that was bad. And then the next week I'm like, funny story. That was good. But the thing about everybody's live is why. watching them figure out how to do this version of the show in real time. Well, Netflix is watching, hoping something goes viral, hoping something pops. And last night's episode was, as I think as it should be at this stage in the season.

This is episode seven, I think, of a total order of 11, maybe a six, seven. I thought it was just, it was outstanding. How guest dependent is this show? Well, they're figuring it out. I think that when it was everybody's in L.A., which was the first version of the show, it was the can see was more focused it was about L.A.

and so each of the episodes was about an L.A. thing like earthquakes or coyotes and so they would have visiting comedians that were either friends with Malaney or people in town for Netflix's Comedy Festival and then they would also have an expert and they would talk about the issue at hand

and they'd take calls and it was kind of fun and focused this season started with a similar I think intention but because now it was no longer L.A. focused half serious. Last night seemed to turn a different page where Conan O'Brien was the first guest. And when I say first guest, he just came out and they did some stuff.

It was really funny. It was also a little touching because Malini's a big fan. And then they did calls from people who I later Googled and saw were actually like really, really famous paleontologists. But they were like, OK, crank and like hung up on him. It was both the dinners. So you would Google these people after? Was it about dinosaurs or something? Yeah, it was about like, are we putting dinosaurs together wrong?

Oh. And it was basically like a lot of skepticism about dinosaurs. And a guy called it and he was sort of chuckling and he seemed like a very charming guy. And they were like, is this a bit? And then it seemed like it wasn't a bit. And then the guy was like, actually now we know that dinosaurs had feathers and were colorful and maybe danced and sang. And they were like, okay, pal. And I was like, and also his name was like, uh, his name was like Rick.

Oh, he had the same name as Bert Reynolds in Boogie Knights. His name was Dr. Jack Horner? No, it wasn't. Yeah. And so they were like, this isn't real. And so I googled Dr. Jack Horner. be careful. And he's like, he's a Wikipedia page. He's a very famous paleontologist who was probably just on his couch being like, my funny friends are talking about something I care

about. And they left them off the year. So do we get to the bottom of whether dinosaurs had feathers and danced? The dancing was unclear, but they did have feathers because, and this is also why you know, you want to know something. This is like quid pro quo. You said something about yourself. I don't, I'm out on birds. I don't like birds. This is a point of contention in my house right now because my younger daughter wants birds as pets. No. And is into like bird watching. And I'm like, first of all, it's a big no blanket no. You can just say Chris said no. But she knows I say no because I'm like, they are creepy little dinosaurs and I don't want them around. I think that they are beautiful to look at. But a domesticated pet bird is a

shitting machine that just wakes you up. And I, I've never owned one, but I can't. Did you lease? What do you mean? No, but like, I understand everybody gets something different out of a domesticated domestic pet. And I'm sure that there's. value in having a bird. I am personally blind and deaf to the charms. Yeah, I also... But love looking at birds in the sky. From far away.

My favorite shot in sinners involves birds. Oh, it's a nice little spoiler. But when you get close to them, they are creepy. A.F. I do not like them. So anyway, but they are dinosaurs. That has been just, that's now been... Anyway, then in a more traditional talk show format, then John brought out I.O. Debrie, who was charming and great. And then Rita Moreno had to cancel last minute.

And so Tina Fey showed up. And then he brought out reunited Canadian punk band Mets. And then also did a bunch of like... Do they break up? Apparently they broke up like last year. And then break up. They're playing Riot Fest probably two weeks. Everybody breaks up until they get a new... Yeah. It was cool. It's so unpredictable. It's so dynamic. It really is fun to see them figuring this out. And then for the last few weeks, the comedian Lankson-Kerman, who is incredible funny. He's a stand-up, great stand-up special. He's on English teacher. He's a writer on the show. He was on the first season. He's responsible for, I think, the two funniest things I've seen in 2025. One was two weeks ago when he was Michael Jackson's Chimp Bubbles, who did a special interview with... See, Kai is laughing because she knows how funny this is. Guy has not laughed as much during a pot. Because she knows this is our last one, clearly. No, this is a bonus episode, man. We bless people with a Tony Gilroy episode on Tuesday.

Yeah, this is the you're welcome episode. This is after dark. And then last night a thing where it was like purported to be an interactive exhibit at a museum where he was the voice of a talking dinosaur who I can't. If I say what he says, it's going to be an Instagram clip and I can't do it to myself or my family. They're sweet bird loving selves. Just find it. And I think it's really exciting to see to see Malini find the line between, you know what, traditional. stuff kind of works. You can't break the format, but you can innovate within it. And it's,

I hope they keep going. I have found a segue out of this. First of all, I love the Mullaney show, and I really, I love that this is happening on Netflix and that it's live. It's just been the playoffs. So I've missed a couple of weeks now. Because of sports again. Once again. Well, I mean, I'm dedicated to finding out who wins the NBA finals, you know? I've done it for a few seasons. I need to see how the story ends. I really respect the way you frame that. Melani chases his obsessions.

And I really appreciate that. Whether it's the aesthetic of the credit sequence with To Live and Die in L.A. or it's being interested in dinosaurs or bands that he likes these. Just like, well, you get back together. Great art makes you passionate about other great art. And I had been really inspired by these first few episodes of Andor just to get

honestly into reading about the French resistance, but other rebellions across time. So I've been listening to this Revolutions podcast a little bit, which has been really cool. I will say, the pod is called Revolutions.

They did a really interesting season where usually it's like a season about like the Russian Revolution or this or that, French Revolution. He did one that was a fictional one that he wrote about a revolution on Mars. Who's he? I was just thinking about what that show would be

and whether we would have creative alignment. Definitely not. It would tear us apart. You'd be like, oh, this guy comes in. No, you'd be like, okay, so it's a guy who hates Hitler, right? And he becomes a police detective, and he smokes a lot of cigarettes, and he solves a lot of crimes. And I'm like, but does he visit the local outdoor spice markets? Maybe this would be a good show.

I mean, isn't that actually just the Sam Spade show that Scott Frank did? Yep, and lit the world on fire. So you're welcome. Taste makers are us. Okay, so I've been like casting around. Fantasy does these really good syllabuses for big picture when a major film comes out. He'll put something together of Watch List on Letterbox. And he's been doing videos for them on the YouTube channel.

He just did one on Letterbox for sinners, which is great. You should definitely check that out after you see sinners. I was thinking about doing something similar for Andor just as I was pulling this stuff together. And, you know, I was doing light research either things that Tony had mentioned. Tony Gilroy had mentioned. He did a wonderful interview with Rolling Stone. around the time of the first season that I think I'd missed that time,

but then the BBC sort of aggregated it, but also did a bunch of additional reporting about Cassie and Andor's similarities to young Stalin, when Stalin and Lenin and Trotsky were first, like, coming up in this old game. And so I was like, oh my God, like, this is so cool.

I was grabbing this, grabbing that. In all of like this sort of scanning around that I was doing, I came across a reference on a Reddit page, and I can't remember whether it was something that Tony had mentioned, we'll have to ask him about it when we next talk to him, or that was just like people saying, oh, it's kind of like

this. If you like this, you would like, if you like Andor, you would like this. And it came across this show called Sandbaggers, the Sandbaggers. I had never heard of this. It does speak to a blank spot that I have, or a blind spot, of especially

80s television, and especially international 80s television. And this is seven, I mean, this is 78 to 81. Late 70s, early 80s, yeah. So this is a show created by a man Ian McIntosh, not sure what else he's done.

It's in 19... I could speak to that. Can you? Yeah, but go on. In 1978 to 1981, BBC spy show about his special operations unit inside of MI6.

It is essentially shot the way they shot taxi or cheers, where they've got like three interior sets. And the action of the show is this guy, Neil Burnside, walking into rooms and discussing operations that are happening out in the world.

Often there is an episodic quality to it, so they'll have like a mission that needs to be sort of accomplished by the end of the episode, but there are little threads that are going, his ex-wife, his ex-father-in-law, works in the foreign office, you know, their relationship to the prime minister and Downing Street.

And to the U.S. And to the U.S. And the sandbaggers themselves, right? Yeah. It's like it's a special. So basically it's like this guy, Burnside has started this group within MI6. A working group. Called the sandbaggers and there's three of them.

There's like history and lore to like where those guys have been sent and what they're doing. I have to admit that this one absolutely like blew my mind. It was so fucking good. It's so sick. We should say at the beginning, it's streaming on Amazon. Yeah, and it's streaming on Amazon for free. Yeah. For what it's worth, it's not just that he's walking into rooms.

There is action and location set pieces, but they are filmed the way I believe all UK TV shows were filmed on location, which is like the way Monty Python was filmed. Yeah, we have some extra footage of Trafalgar Square. Get on this bus and we'll put the audio in later. Unclear whether there was such a thing as permits or location shooting, it's literally just guys in the sickest, thick tie fits, just getting in and out of black cabs.

Yes, and smoking and drinking tea. And then negotiating a prisoner handoff in Norway and at the same time a missile system to Norway, it is straight out of the pages of LeCarray that like probably fill the books between books. You know, like it's real work-a-day stuff. I was mesmerized by this and it really got my brain spinning out about our kind of relationship as modern viewers to production value. Yes.

And how, I'm like, oh, that doesn't look good. We're like, this is kind of canned. And, you know, I don't like the, like, there was something about seeing this, I mean, very, very, very well made production design. Everything is very good. And then maybe there's like an degree of which it's like, oh, I just getting off on seeing like the 80s fashions and stuff like that. Yeah.

I was just so blown away by this. I was, I was so. And all of the. plot is communicated through dialogue. Like, there's very little action. I think there's a bunch of reasons why we find this so appealing. One is it is just like picked down to the heart of what it is that we like in these stories and these types of spy stories.

And just seeing it not only just laid bare and done so expertly, but also being enough is really, really gratifying and exciting. I think it also absolutely is thrilling to see a missing piece of DNA of something. The way that Ian McIntosh thought about SpyCraft, I think there's a great speech that kind of reminds me of the

La Carte speech famous one at the end of and it's in the film as well, of the spy who came in from the cold, about how spies are basically grubby little men looking at you. There's a similar speech about how actually if you want James Bond go to the library if you want to see SpyCrafts sit down

into desk and think for a while that runs through Andor and the agency and the bureau and a lot of the spy stuff that we like I think the other part about it that is really appealing to us and I've not checked out as much as you have but I was instantly smitten

is with our former recovering music critic brains it is incredibly thrilling to go digging in the crates and find the record that inspired the record that inspired our favorite bands. We sometimes still struggle trying to overlay our later life fandom with television over our defining fandom of music.

And that's why sometimes we'll have a whole podcast about like indie TV or can you just DIY this or whatever. And generally the answer is no. But because the official family tree of shows, especially in America that we like, is so well established. So like the Mount Rushmore is set for. for decade upon decade, finding the secret sauce. I mean, I wonder if Sorkin's seen this.

It's very possible. I mean, to your point, it's very stylish. Like, the opening credits are extremely stylish. Oh, yeah, Roy Budd, the jazz musician, the titles. I mean, there's definitely style to it. And I think, I mean, I have to read more about it. I would love to know what early 80s British audiences thought of the show. Can I fill you in a little bit about Ian McIntosh, the creator of the show?

So he was a Scottish Royal Navy officer who wrote his first thriller, A Slaying in September. A slang? A slaying. A slaying. Slaying. Not slaying in the way my daughter say it, I think. Published in 1967.

And then he went to work for TV and he created a very popular show called Worship. It was a drama series on the BBC. And then he went on to create sandbaggers. The show never finished because he died at the age of 38 flying a private plane over the Gulf of Alaska.

It is very, very, very presumed. This is my Jones Town now. That he was disappeared because he was a spy. Like, he definitely, like a lot of my favorite writers, our favorite writers, like Ross Thomas, who wrote Prior Patch, was constantly asked, like,

are you actually also? Yeah, you were running elections in Africa and also worked for trade unions. Like, you were in the CIA, right? And he'd sort of laugh about it because it was also good for sales. he would never confirm or deny. Similar thing happened to Ian McIntosh.

But the show, Sandbaggers, not to spoil it, if people are about to jump into it, ends with a cliffhanger. Because ultimately, BBC decided only Ian knew what he was going to do with this, and we can't figure it out. There's 20 episodes across three seasons. It's available on Amazon Prime Video.

I can't wait to ask Tony if he'd seen this. I don't know whether this is just some intrepid redditor out there. It was like, oh, I think he'd probably, this reminds me of Sandbaggers. and all of the Luthyn Lani Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, kind of, and also the Parthagas, like the imperial meetings,

there's a lot of that vibe of, it's naked, pure power plays, and everybody in the building seems to know why they're there, and it's, like, very separate from their personal lives until their personal lives get pulled into it. Hopefully Tony will tell us about it. or Susan Gilroy will hear this part of the podcast and go upstairs and ask Tony if he's watched it and they'll let us know one way or another. That would be great. That was cool that you found that. I'm just very excited. I mean, I think that it's just the best feeling when you're like, oh, this one thing and or has kind of spun me out into a kind of rabbit hole and a deep dive into a whole field of study. Not that I'm in any way capable of scholarship anymore now that I have Instagram. reels, but, you know, like,

But you are very much looking forward to a mini-series. I got to find French resistance Instagram reels. That would be the best way to get this information. It's just like, La Moray. I found... The region of Paris. I know there's a Shane Gillis bit about this, but I find now that I am being

served billions on Instagram reels. Billions? Yeah. Scene by scene. Oh, the show. Yeah. And I'm like, this is a great way to watch police. Oh, I just all I get served now, is pub content. On our pub walk from here to here,

here's this pub. And then they just move their camera phone around the pub. Yeah. And then it's on to a next pub. I found there's one I got yesterday of a bar in Tokyo that is in an alley and only plays horror movie soundtracks. I was like, what the fuck am I doing with my life?

Only I hadn't had that ocean spray. I could be there now. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime.

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Speaking of production value. So you watch Sandbaggers and you're seeing something that might as well, it has like basically the production value of contemporary shows back then, like British shows back then like Faulty Towers or Are You Being Served, right? We have better picture quality on our podcast that we're doing on a Thursday morning. But about as many sets though. You know, it's just like we're going to have all the activity taking place in one or two or three places. Yep. On the complete flip side of that and with absolutely no other connective tissue,

I just wanted to shout out a new show that is also on Amazon Prime Video. And that's called The Narrow Road to the Deep North. It's a mouthful. It also sounds like Sunny Day Real Estate's follow up to how it feels to be something on. Just flows, doesn't it? Yeah. This is a show from Justin Kirtzel, who is a fantastic filmmaker. He did a movie last year called The Order with Nicholas Holt and Ty Sheridan and Jude Law.

That is about the FBI in the early 80s hunting down white power gangs in the West. It's really cool, really well-made film. And he's also done Snowtown Murders and... True History of the Kelly Gang. True History of the Kelly Gang and Michael Fastbenders, Macbeth. And Michael Fastbender's. Assassin's Creed. Probably one that he did not have final cut on, if I had to guess. Narrow to the Deep North is Jacob Allorty. We're in a little weird Amazon Prime

video moment where I'm like, we're back in the early days now. We have to talk about this. Like Amazon, the biggest marketplace in the world, so I guess it makes sense that they have a launcher of women into space. Truly. So much to be grateful for it. But I guess they carry so many products, that's definitionally what they are. I guess it makes sense that their TV offering would also offer the most bizarre buffet of choices of any of the major streamers. But we have to come up with a word. Maybe the late author Philip Kerr came up with one in German. He was British, but yeah. No, I know, but he wrote about your guy Bernie. Well, your rival Bernie, he left before you did. of what Amazon

Like With It's such a bizarre There's such a bizarre sensation to be like Oh let's fire up Amazon Prime Okay Well I could watch Gladiator 2 now And here's another season of Wheel of Time

Did you see that also today An Amy Sherman Palladino series Went up the entire season? Yeah Just premiered a ballet show But then also there will be something like The English right Like the show we loved

A few years ago or in this case, I mean, the narrow road to the deep north is an extremely high production value read expensive historical miniseries starring an ascendant star, Jacob Allorty, and I cannot stress enough that I had never heard anything about this.

Yes. You mentioned this to me, and I thought maybe you were disassociating. Like, I had no idea what you were talking about. Because, look... I had a hard enough time saying the title. I know. I mean, obviously, I struggle to keep up with watching the shows that we say we are watching. Last of Us. On the podcast. But I do try to, like, know what I'm missing. This was completely out of left field. And I'm glad that these things still happen. And I'm glad that you brought this into my life.

It's gorgeous to look at this. So this is a, based on a novel by Richard Flanagan. That won the Booker Prize. That won the Booker Prize. And I think he's a Lordy's first time where he gets to at least on screen has been acting in his native native accent, yeah. I mean, I still couldn't tell you how many episodes were in the White Lotus Season 3, so I cannot confirm or deny that, but at least as far as I know. It's a story told and across multiple timelines. It stars Alorty as a soldier who's in a prisoner of war camp

during World War II. There's also some stuff about Karen Hines, you know, and there's... Well, he's playing him in the 80s. Yes, there's like... Multiple timelines. But I really want to... to talk about it because of curtsle. Because I think there's a kind of ongoing debate discourse about, you know, what kind of medium is television.

Is it for writers? Is it for filmmakers? I think that you've actually helped me over the years kind of dissuade myself from pure authorship by a director at any given moment. You know, but just about the collaborative nature of any kind of visual storytelling and any kind of crew that is involved with making a show. or a film even for that matter. But I do think that this is an example of great filmmaking and great cinematography. I don't know how much this cost.

You know, like, and I wonder whether or not this is an example of someone who's like, I know how to make something look extraordinary. Like the opening scenes in, I believe, in Syria, right? In the early 40s, and Alortian and his compatriots are like fighting in the war. like they look like the fucking godfather. Like they look really,

really beautiful. It looks like a Bertolucci film in times. And like I'm going a little bit overboard. Or Maliki. But I'm, yeah, like, and it has,

he has a touch and a sensibility that is extraordinary. But I wonder whether or not this was very, very specific like this frame. Right. Will look beautiful. And maybe behind it is a tower block. I don't know. You know what I mean?

Yeah, they found a way to, to maximize it. It's, um, my main, takeaway from this was, Jesus, what an impossible medium to get

one's arms around. You know, that like our choices every night when we sit on our couch and fire up these streaming services, as well as our choices, literally your choice and my choice, to do a podcast about episode three of hacks or this, it's just

mind-bending to consider that this is an option. And it's, to say up front, this show is not going to be your, let's come down after tonight's Malini episode option. No. This is incredibly dense, incredibly rich, and a little bit demanding. I would say, aesthetically, artistically, and conceptually and thematically of your time and attention. It's a love story, but it's incredibly dark and sad and it involves obviously being a prisoner of war, which is, you know, I think. But it is unquestionably beautiful and it is unquestionably craftsmanship of an incredibly high order.

But it is also the kind of thing, and I don't know how you feel about this, because I always. only watch one in advance of talking about it. Me, sir. I very much, I almost wish I had consumed it, I don't mean like a binge or that it's a five-part movie, but that I had sort of sunk into the whole piece, and maybe we will do this later. But just so I could sit down and look into the camera and say, here is the journey. And here's why I'm recommending it, as opposed to, here's another pilot we checked out, because this is a complete story and a mini-series and clearly a labor of love for Justin Cursel and others involved. I think he was first announced as adapting this are hoping to adapt this seven years ago.

So it was a journey to get something like this on the screen with multiple studio partners and production partners. But I found it really, really beautiful and really captivating. And this might be a left field kind of take. But it kind of gave me some of what I realized in retrospect I wanted the Brutalus to give me in terms of a contemporary filmmaker finding something chasing a muse and chasing a muse and chasing a thematic vein in period.

Right. The comparisons might end there, but I, you know, we did, we solicited some mailbag questions and maybe we'll get to some today or next week, but a perpetual question we get is to put my money where my mouth is in terms of saying that like,

sometimes stories just are put in the wrong bucket and what are some recent movies that could have been TV shows or TV shows that could have been movies, and the answer for TV shows that could have been movies is dope thief, but movies that could have been TV. TV shows is kind of the brutalist for me, just because not that I wanted it to be longer,

but I just felt like that wasn't the right. I think I disagree with you respectfully about the brutalist because I think that there's a tradition of that kind of epic yop of a statement in cinema. I agree. I just didn't think that, well, we're not, let's not relating it. I didn't think that necessarily it pulled off the yop. And so if we were doing a let's interrogate artistic integrity, moral integrity in period in wartime across borders.

I mean, I've sat next to you while we watched Lawrence of Arabia in a theater. I know that you can... I do love a yop. You love a yop. Anyway, that was a digression. I do kind of want to just hit briefly. Some people may not really care about the meta conversation of, like, how to watch, what to watch, and how many episodes to watch. But you bring up a really good point of, like, this and like an episode of hacks, kind of conceptually living in the same box, which is a television.

And time, you know, the idea of, like, what do I want to watch when I want to watch it? Yeah. Like what's a nice way? I've been actually really struggling with this this week just because of, you know, I think for us, but anybody, like you can turn the input valve

too wide open and then it's like when is it kind of a treat? When is it fun to watch television? When is it fun to watch a movie? If you're constantly bringing in information, plot, character, to keep this straight. I have to admit, like, I got mesmerized by sandbaggers over the last week, but that show is so dense and so complicated that, like, between that and Andor, I'm, like,

largely forgetting what time it is. You can't, you cannot second screen these shows. You look away and suddenly he's talking to the Norwegian ambassador. Yeah. Excuse me. So I found, like, actually, like, to your point, narrow road, I was like, I want to watch this. It needs to be, I need to give it space to watch it. So it's like I've watched this first one and I'm excited to check out the rest of it. It's also interesting the way you put that. So many things might get better in the second or third episode and it's just hard to get that engine going unless you're like, well, I have to watch this. Culturally, it's going to be such a big deal. A lot of shows can be challenging in that way. But I would say that ultimately, and I do think I'll finish it, that

narrow road to the deep north is just, it's not engaging with TV storytelling nor necessarily should it. It's a long film. It's, it is truly. And it could be episodic, but it is not playing by TV rules. You're just sinking into these timelines in this world. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. There's no question in watching the first episode where I'm like, are they going to pull off the prison escape in episode three? That's just not the type of show that it is. I'm just guessing. Yeah. Or not guessing. I'm just throwing that out there. And one of the ways that I loved how it sort of knocked me off of my standard TV operating procedure viewing was in the opening there's an opening sequence,

and then there's sort of the morning after, and the sun's coming up, and you're with these soldiers. And just the way that Kurtzl filmed it, there's a lot of overlapping dialogue. It is, which tells you, like, he's not really worried about us hearing what they're saying in these scenes.

It's just life. Yes. Yeah, just sort of sinking into a world where characters are just talking to each other, and the content of what they're saying doesn't even matter so much as the familiar way they're talking to each other and the sort of naturalistic way

that it's being filmed is really exciting. To your other point, which may be just part of a larger overstory conversation that we keep having. I do think, not just because of us having to, I know it's not coal mining, but we do have to watch a lot of stuff.

And I think a lot of people, certainly people who listen to a podcast like this, watch a lot of stuff by choice. That sometimes I'm hit with the thought that we are not doing this work, a great service by watching so much of it. And I'll use a mainstream example episode two of season two of Last of Us

I think when it ended regardless of how I felt and I felt very affected by the episode and I thought it was, you know, we talked about it at length on Monday so if people haven't listened and go back now I see the appeal.

I was shaken by it which was the intention and I certainly did not want to keep watching television afterwards. Yeah. Now that's not a programming note that Casey Blois or his team at Max wants to hear

but I don't know. I think that they want want to own the night. They want to own the night, but Gemstone starts, you know, in five minutes. But we used to be able to watch Game of Thrones and then watch V. You know what I mean? Oh, I'm not saying we can't do it. I think psychologically, like, I think it's not necessarily what's happening right after Last

of Us, you know, it's what's also happening that you know you have like this pile growing and growing. And also, I think the reason why I've tried in the past, we've done these segments where it's the prime time grid. So it's like essentially like, if you. were going to sit down the way you did when you were 13 and watch TV from 8 to 11, which even now kind of sounds like a lot when I think about it. Yeah.

I think the shows were shorter and there was commercials and there was a lot more getting up and, oh, I missed five minutes, but it doesn't matter because... You had to refill your juice glass. I sure did. Get some golden grams. It's trying to put some sort of... But the reason why I, like, introduced that as an idea is to put order on chaos. Because it is, it does feel difficult sometimes to wrap your head around the fact that we've got

three episodes a week of Andor an episode of The Last of Us I watched Top Chef and Survivor hacks, righteous gemstones I may just dip my toe into a 1978 BBC show from time to time plus Justin Crutzel made

a five or six episode mini-series about POWs and love across decades and shame and trauma got to hit that, you know? Can't wait. Yeah. And then, you know, homies want to see sinners. You know, like, we got, we got to go out there and get these vampires. So that's a lot of stuff

on top of anything else you might be interested in in the world, whether it's basketball or birds. Books. Birds. Birds. Yeah, not that. Never that. Um, all right. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, it's not, it's not, it's not a woes me thing. No, no, no, but it does feed into the conversation we still haven't had, but we've been teasing, which is the, like, the food pyramid of TV of, like, how to balance your TV diet. And, um, you know, Is it healthy to have, in addition to the, like, the things that you have to, you know, your quick burning carbs, like, you know, you just want to keep up. It's like White Lotus or hacks.

Like, it's fun. It's in the culture. But then, like, have something more dense and fibrous, like on the back burner to watch one episode a week or whatever, you know, for whatever it's worth, God knows what Prime videos internal hopes and dreams for the narrow road to the deep north are. But I'd like to think that even they understand. that the best case scenario for a lovely artistic endeavor like this is that people will come to it and find it

and watch it at their own speed. This is not necessarily a binge watch. I hope the prime video UX of being able to find stuff can be a little bit, first of all, it's very algorithmically tailored to whatever you're watching. But like Netflix, it's like I hope this show gets a foothold so that people will see Jacob Allerty and check it out. And I hope it gets an awards push,

which makes me realize that we are in that weird everything getting fired out for Emmys. Yeah, until the end of May. Right, right? Usually, that's the cutoff, yeah. Cool. All right, well, we're going to be back on Monday. We're going to keep these questions, these mailbag questions. But, you know, if you're still listening, you can always email us at the watch at Spotify.com.

We'll be doing Last of Us on Monday, and I think we'll probably save the and or episodes for Thursday. Yeah, I think that's best. So it gives people time to digest them. Yeah. I just... We just wanted to release that Tony episode because, you know, he spoke kind of... He kind of gave the rally cry for the season to start.

There are so many competing interests and points of view as to what... How to make Andor successful and what success means. As a, like, fan who loves the show, personally, gobbling three hours of the dwindling stock Tuesday nights into Wednesday morning is not my preferred way. to do it. As a counter, may I just say, and the reviews are out so I'm not, I have, I've watched the next three episodes, get fucking ready. No, I mean, like, you're going to want to watch the three of them together. Okay, this look at us. But you're going to be like, I need to see these three

together. Yeah. We're going to Gorman? Is that, is that our travel plans for next week? Thanks to Kaya. We'll be back on Monday.