The Watch - TV Roundup: ‘Black Mirror,’ ‘Dope Thief,’ ‘Hacks,’ and ‘The Studio’

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the trailers that were released this week for ‘Fantastic Four,’ ‘Thunderbolts,’ and ‘28 Years Later’ (1:00). Then they talk about whether or not ‘Black Mirror�� is too dark for this current moment (26:15), before running through some of the other shows they're currently watching, like ‘Dope Thief’ (37:41), ‘Hacks’ (51:52), ‘The Studio’ (1:01:25), and ‘Everybody’s Live’ (1:08:58). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Senior Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch, not good hang with Amy Poehler. I am Chris Ryan and I am an editor at the ringer.com. Joining me in the studio boycotting Black Mirror

until it gets a little nicer out. It's Andy Greenwald. Look how spicy. You're starting pod beef? Kai's here with her giant Good Hang Stanley Cup. Hydration gallon. Yeah. And you know, you just it's tough.

to be to be feeling like you're put in your place, you know? Kaya, I don't know if you remember, but we made T-shirts for the watch in, I want to say, 2017. Yeah. I have one. You guys are not like to know who it.

Well, okay. She says she has one. Yes, yes. That's nice. Kaya has a T-shirt. Kaya also now hangs out with Catherine Hahn and Amy Poehler on the reg. So that's okay. That's okay.

I'm really happy for her success. Yeah. I'm happy for everybody's success. I'm happy for Marvel studios. I'm happy for their success. Oh, you're turning this into the intro? This is good. Keep steering. I didn't really have an intro today, so I thought I would just let it rip. That's because we're making fun of Kaya for her A-level gig, but you're heading to an A-level gig later. That's why you've got a little pep in your step today. Yeah, I will be on the Bill Simmons pod unless he's texted me during

this and be like, never mind. I'm going to be talking about the NBA with Rob Mahoney. Does he want me to come on to talk about his appearance on Jimmy Kimmel? Just like from a TV critic perspective? Did you watch that last night? No, but I will watch. watch that. Okay. Andy, today we're going to talk about shows that

we've kind of started, abandoned. Some of us have watched more of than the other, but these are all the shows that are kind of in between Lotus,

Last of Us, and, and these are kind of like our major tent pole shows that we've been covering. Although I did see a twinkle in your eye where I wondered

whether or not, even for a show like ours, would we, do you feel like you want Last of Us every week? You want to talk,

talk through it every week? Do I want it? Do you want to? Well, I think I'm definitely not, I'm not giving up on it. No, I didn't think you would be. No, and I think that, look, the show is, we don't need to relitigate what we said the other day, but the show is smartly designed, right?

And so I think that the, at least the impression I get and the impression we got from the previous season is that episodes might not follow a particular expected rhythm or order. Sure. It was the third episode of the first season that everyone still talks about. That was the Nick Offerman, Mary Bartlett Bottle episode. So let's see. Now, does that mean that... I mean, you sounded like you were like mid on the first episode, right?

I was. Yeah. But if the second episode is just Catherine O'Hara doing drunk therapy with every member of the town, episode of the year, baby. Like, this show could still service me. Do you know what I mean? Is there a bardo in this town?

Whoa! Is this whole town? Is Joel in a liminal space? Is this whole town a bardo? Yeah. A bardo and grill, perhaps, in the middle of Jackson? What's good with you, man? Last night, I got my mind blown by Reunited 90s, post-hardcore legends, Klicatatatatatou, my favorite drummer. I went to go see my favorite drummer, Mario Rubalcaba, who played in Hot Snakes and Rocket from the Crypt and lots of other great bands.

How'd that make you feel, just like physically, energy-wise? You know, it's very, it's interesting and actually quite fun to go to a show just to watch one. I mean, I obviously was watching the rest of the band, but like I was locked in. Horse blinders on. He's my favorite drum. And so he plays a kind of like surf psych style while playing hardcore. So like there's a lot of like floor tom rolls, you know, and then a lot of like heavy. Did you position yourself in a kind of obvious slash awkward place in the room just to make laser eye contact with him the entire time?

I did honestly. Not to be like creepy, but I was just like I came here to watch this guy drum. Did you do the... Have you ever gone to watch a man drum specifically? Uh, gone, no. I mean, having gone out on the quad during nice days in college, I have been known to experience drumming in a way that I didn't anticipate. Yeah, for sure. But no, I've never... You've sacked, you've hacked, yeah. I know, like, I never went to a rush show, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't, like, I've never zeroed in before. Okay. Do you do the generational, and by generational, I mean, like, Gen X, Gen X Cusp, like us thing of being in an indie show and just being, like, keeping rhythm on your sternum? I don't. I never did that. You know that too. You've been doing enough shows that me to know. Maybe you've changed. I haven't been to a show in a minute. I usually stand with a knowing smirk. Just think about all the other things that you've accomplished in life. About all my appearances on the Bill Simmons podcast. And what you'll say. I love that though. You're selling yourself short because you've had, first of all, you've had a great week in the pod space. Thanks.

You were finally invited on to Second in Command, Tims Simon's pod. I did. It was nice of him. I thought, you know, like everybody's... This is your bit. I don't really understand it. Everybody gets a trophy these days. That's fine. You did great. And then you were also on the press box. Has that dropped yet? It has not dropped yet.

I just want to say, I don't want to step on it, but it did seem like you were having an incredible R version of 13 going on 30 day, where you spent the day talking about the golden age of blogging and then went to a hardcore show. It's kind of beautiful. It is one nice thing about modern life is that you can just sort of, you know, curate experience to exactly like your tastes over the course of a day. The closest I've come to that was over the weekend, I moderated a little Q&A, or I moderated.

I had a little conversation with the great Kyle McLaughlin at Vidiates. They were doing a double feature of Kyle Films that he curated, and of course he chose Dune, the David Lynch version, leading into the Flintstones. Does he play Fred that? What? No. It's John Goodman. Oh, well, who's he play? The villain.

Cliff Vandercave. Okay. Is that canon? Or was that written for the movie? I think it was written for the movie. He was joking that that was the one party ever got from auditioning. Like, he really auditioned and got it. Who is he up against?

He didn't say. He doesn't tell Tales out of school. But he, it's leaving Netflix soon, the Flintstones. And I feel like most people haven't watched it, nor necessarily should you. But it was wild that the movie begins with him scheming with his sexy secretary, Hallie Berry, who's playing a character named Sharon Stone. This is the 90s word. Yeah.

Anyway, I only bring this up to say that my version of talking about blogger, and seeing a hardcore show is having a friendly conversation with Kyle McLaughlin, and at the end, him giving me bottles of wine from his winery and talking about... Have you uncorked him yet, or are they? How are they? I haven't uncorked him. He was pouring his rosé. I mean, like, this is my dream, right? Like, my favorite actor from childhood being like, hmm, we're making a shardinay this year. I'm like, oh, tempt me with a good time, Agent Cooper. It was great. He's a lovely guy. So, yeah, we were going to talk today a little bit about Black Mirror, the new season,

which came out last week. We were going to talk about dope thief, which Andy is current on. I'm a little bit behind on, but we wanted to do a check-in. We were going to talk about everybody's in L.A., the Malaney Show.

Not called that anymore. What's it called? Everybody's live. Everybody's live, the Malaney show that's been airing over the last couple of weeks. We wanted to do episode three of your friends and neighbors,

but it's a Friday release, so we'll have to hit it next week. Yeah, or, I mean, I think we could broadly talk about it, but we can talk about it on Monday, and then we also were going to hit hacks in the studio. This is a big,

day for us. A full day. You sure you have time before your next appearance? Do you want to talk a little bit about some of these trailers that dropped just because these are films that are very much in our headspace. Fantastic Four. This is the sort of some footage was released

out of CinemaCon. There was a teaser trailer. And there was a teaser trailer. This is a very full version of the trailer. It kind of gets in a little bit deeper into the story. Much clearer shots of Julia Gardner as Silver Surfer. Still not that clear, but yeah.

She seems like a silver surfer. I mean, what are you looking for? I wouldn't know about the detailing. Okay, go on. Yeah, and a little bit more insight into what the plot points are going to be, maybe, and, you know, Ulri Richards, mess him with space, and look what it got him. Also, the final trailer for Thunderbolts, asterix, and then another trailer for 28 years later.

Let's start at the end. Did it occur to you at any point that the, Girl Power Blue Origin Flight might actually be Our Universe is Fantastic 4, then they might come back with... I see your face thinking about if you're going to get in trouble. No, I'm not going to get in trouble. I was wondering whether or not you feel like they're happy

about having done that. Like, after getting back and having most of... At least, like, the public-facing response to their achievement being like, fuck you guys. I say this sincerely. I hope they're miserable. for like a really long time. I mean, I'll be the brave one.

Okay. Yeah, I don't think, I think Fantastic Four has a little bit more lore than the Blue Origin fight. True. I do think, though, that we are maybe, maybe the world is in a less receptive place to a bunch of fun seekers being like, let's go into space that they would have been

in a different moment. Let's just casually erase the achievements of other women astronauts. That's cool. Yeah. I thought, well... I want to start with a 28 years later trailer for a purpose. Oh, I thought you wanted to start with Fantastic Four trailer.

I don't. You sort of interrupted and then started talking about Blue Origin. Oh, no, but you were like, Julia Gardner is a silver surfer. No, but I said, let's start at the end. Let's do 28 years later. I wasn't listening at that point, was I? I know. Sorry. I'm not going to watch this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I want to talk about this. Yeah. I refuse. First of all, I think that when you're sold on a movie, you can stop watching trailers.

I don't know who out there is like, gosh, I was thinking about it. seeing sinners, but I got to see a few more moments from this film. Yeah. To really send me on it. Is it the kind of movie that could have a beer with me? It would be like the undecided. The undecided sinners attenders. They do a focus group.

Can you tell me what happens in the last five minutes because it's just like I'm just not sure I want to invest in. Frank Lund says like a diner full of people being, I'm not sure if I'm ready to see an original idea in the theater. The visitors hid the vampires. I, this is probably along with one battle for after another, my most anticipated movie of the year. So let's talk about this, because last week, there was a moment, or not last week, Monday,

where I was like, Chris, how do you feel about actors playing twins and movies? And you looked at me like I just, like, said unspeakable things about your family. I apologize. You are on record, on record on this podcast, and I should have known how you feel about that. That said, there are some core value. that you hold, that you only publicize in like minute 31 of a big picture draft. And I got to be honest, I missed some of them. So I didn't know that you felt so strongly about 28 years later.

Do you know how people talk about Avatar, you know, and seeing the kind of James Cameron's technology on screen and how mind-blowing it is? That's how I feel when Gilly Murphy is in an empty London for the first time when he comes out of the hospital and 28 days later. I thought that movie was mind-altering when I saw it. I think, you know, it felt like the indie ethos that we were kind of raised on in the 90s applied to a genre movie and then blown up to a blockbuster epic, but still told with this really handcrafted, you know, he was shooting it on a video camera, I think, way. You know, like, and Murphy and Brendan Gleason in that movie and David Eccleston, it was just so terrified. It was so thrilling and exhilarating.

I loved it. I thought 28 weeks later was actually quite good. But this is such a cool idea for going back and reviving IP. The fact that they've envisioned it as a trilogy, and I believe Nia da Costa is already in production, if not already done production on the second one. Sadly, they somehow do not have financing for the third one. Really?

But the first two are written by Alex Garland, who I'm obviously very hooked on right now. with Civil War and warfare and a lot of his other stuff that he's been doing. And this cast looks incredible. The teaser is perfect. Yeah, the teaser's great.

So I don't want to see a bunch of things that are going to hit so hard in the theater on a big screen. As someone who, this is going to be a theme today. So I did watch the trailer. Please clap. I love the way you're talking about

28 days later, like when Modest Mouse signed to Epic. finally Isaac's vision can be brought to the people of radio if you guys could just hear interstate A you don't understand it was always big you would vote songus too it was your minds that were small

I don't know if that winds up no timing wise it's pretty good I'm here to report that the trailer hits really hard and as someone if you start describing the trailer I'm walking out No, no. No, I mean, you're walking out

because you've got to go beyond Bill's podcast. No, I'm the same person that sat here on Monday, and I was like, you know what? Maybe I just don't have the appetite for zombie stories. And then I was like, oh shit. You were serious about that? That's my takeaway, and I will be seeing this film. Did you need a final Thunderbolts trailer?

Here's my question about the Thunderbolts trailer. Is there any more movie that we haven't seen? No, I mean, they've pretty much dropped the, the coyness about who the villain is in the film. Yes. I don't want to spoil it, but the character that Lewis Pullman plays is a complicated one with an interesting history

in publication, and they're doing that. I believe we've actually had conversations about this character on this podcast. Well, the character of the century has an arch villain named The Void. And The Void is mentioned in this trailer, and that's all I'll say. But what struck me,

and I guess I just want your opinion of it. And for full disclosure, I did text Sean Fennessey this question to get his input on it. But I texted him approximately 90 seconds ago. And I've not yet heard back a response in real time. You do the work. It's kind of like when you called Rizzillo during the blue chips, but, you know, like, Sean might just show up. You never know what could happen around here. I like that it's sort of like the way Maggie Haberman calls like a source that is just like, I'm going to press in two minutes.

You can either be a part of this or it can be about you. is hovering over the button, like the meme with the sweaty guy. Yeah. Do you think it is a sign of utmost confidence or panic that a movie that to this point has been presented as a rag-tag, Guardians of the Galaxy, meet Suicide Squad, hey, we're just trying to survive here. We're the dregs of the Marvel Universe,

and we're going to do our best to have a good time flick, is pivoting hard to earnest emo. It's up to us to save the world. Isn't that exactly what Gardens of the Galaxy did too? With its trailers, it 100% did. So is it just that playbook? Yeah, I think it's like you tantalize everybody with wise cracks, and then you really seal the deal with this is about friendship and a found family.

It's the closing message of the campaign. You start with coconuts and you end with, well, coconuts, honestly. But, okay, that's fair. I didn't know. It's such a tonal shift. But, you know, this is the thing I tried to get my head around, is like who is a casual fan who is tracking

the narrative of the promotion of Thunderbolts and is like, it's too much wisecracking for me? I was going to see this movie, but is perhaps it's a little light in the feet. I don't know. There better be some heartfelt moments of friendship in it.

I genuinely don't know. They get the final trailer, which is another four minutes of all the other set pieces in the movie, and they're like, oh, it turns out that they had to come come together to stop the true evil in the world. There aren't enemies. They're a family.

Yeah. I mean, I think that the first part of what you were talking about is the more interesting thing, which is like the inability probably for movies that are this expensive to keep twists hidden because it's usually something that you can market. It's usually a thing that you would want people to know like, ooh, you know, Lewis Pullman coming through. And then... Look how far we ton fell. I know he's been on the pod, but...

And I like him, but... But yeah, I just... don't know when they're, what purpose like a four-trailer promo run really serves? Either it's just theater at this point. It's just like the marketing department has to keep their job and justify it somehow, or there is some thinking about how they target these, that the audience for these trailers isn't snarky podcasters being like, well, fire this one up and see if it impresses me. But actually, there are potential viewers who have not seen any of the trailers. In this diner in Trump's country, Trump America.

Frank Luntz is like, now, please put on these headphones and look at this iPad. I won't explain the asteris. Lewis Pullman's in this? From Outer Range? Holy shit. He was great as Bob in Top Guns, Averick. We've been wondering what Bob's next move would be. I don't know.

The other thing that makes me, I mean, I am eager to see this movie out of curiosity, but also because the other thing this trailer does is what I believe we both said would be a smart move for this movie, which seemed at its genesis to be just like, well, we got these characters from TV, let's do something with them. It seems like Florence Pugh is the star of the movie and that her character is the connective tissue, and I feel like that is the smartest play.

Yeah. And that makes me want to see the movie. I was already going to see the movie. I don't have high hopes, high hopes for it, but I expect to be entertained. Don't really care what the story's about and don't expect it to you. Yeah, you keep talking about set pieces.

I'm like, I don't care. Well, I think that like the amount of. that they look like the first time you go see a Mission Impossible movie I think it's great to feel like you are experiencing it for the first time in the big theater rather than on like on your phone or on your laptop as you watch this is Tom Cruise jumped onto a plane like the 50th time I would like to try to like get back to maintaining that wonder at at major movies for myself because I just feel like when I'm in a movie theater or something. Sometimes I'm like, well, they really did put like 60% of this film in a trailer.

Well, that's a good pivot to Fantastic Four trailer. Yes. Because I think there is a level of forethought and care present in the, in the presentation of this movie and its marketing campaign that speaks to your point. A lot of attention has clearly been lavished on building a world, a sort of retrofuturist, Alt-Universe Jetsons-esque Marvel 1960s. I appreciate it. appreciate the grain of the film stock and the color palette and the shots of New York and the, you know, the stand-in for the Ed Sullivan show. Yeah. Um, that all feels very lived in and good. And I think with, you know, again, this is, there's a lot of intention to all of this, but I think

there was an interview or quotes from the director, Matt Shackman this week saying about how, and I know this sounds ridiculous, but bear with me, that they were like devoted to like practical effects with the planet eating space god Galactus, who was the villain of the film. we'll see. I was glad they didn't show him other than a foot walking in Manhattan because I think that the problem with the Marvel

universe's pivot to the grand space operas is that everybody is purple and everybody's enormous and everybody can punch and shoot lasers. Yes. And it doesn't mean anything anymore. So the idea of treating the villain of Fantastic Four as like a kaiju, so it's basically like

a Godzilla movie for an earth that has self-appointed protectors, but really no one to fight. It's a smart conception. And it does speak to some of the core strengths that Kevin Feigy exhibited 10 plus years ago, which is understanding who these characters are and really syncing the roots into the foundation of the characters so that then they can become something bigger that's more meaningful to more people.

Yeah, watching this trailer kind of made me wish that the Avengers movies weren't happening. The next ones. Yeah. That this wasn't already a prelude to something else. It's not even that as much as I felt like this was one of the first times where I felt like the, I mean, it's not fresh because it's obviously a project or a story that's been told several times on the big screen and also is one of the most durable titles in all of Marvel. But I found myself like ready for a new world where time starts in this version of the reality where Reed Richards and is doing what he's doing. And I understand that all those characters will be coming back.

But since everything that we have heard about Avengers, Doom's Day, is the gang's back together. Literally everyone who's ever appeared in these movies is coming back. The directors are coming back from Endgame and Infinity War. Downey is being recast, you know, as a new character. All of this stuff just feels like a greatest hits album. Yeah. And Fantastic Four at least had like a patina of new to me, you know, even if it's a retro and B has been told before. Absolutely.

Are you happy? So I wish this was like almost ADBC. And it was like Fantastic Four Remarks, the next chapter in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the other chapters are now closed. But I feel like Debord and Wolverine really, that's like Theo's epic pill for them. They're just like, well, now look, like, look,

like if we just bring all these people back and have winking cameos or whatever, we can just, we can give people this cheap thrill. Yeah, absolutely. I want to do two quick temperature checks coming off of this trailer for you. One, are you happy that

pregnancy is back where it belongs in the Marvel Universe front and center as a plot point? Like... Is it ever... Wait, Wanda was Wanda ever pregnant? Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

She had that baby. She got twins. Right. Yes. She had the twins. Why did I want to say that in the Bud Light voice? I'm not going to do... You remember the ad? I'm not doing it. You're baiting me into it.

No, 90s, and it's just like the best case scenario for your night out at the bar was Twins? I don't remember that ad. Yeah, okay. All right. I'm serious, I don't remember that ad. Just no TV in your hotel room for travel baseball.

I get it. It's too busy working. Worrying about like my hip rotation. Sure. Okay, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, then there are kids that are like, that were in Agatha. Yes.

I was being facetious. I remember that there's been so many, Ramentous pregnancies. Do you remember the Maximoff family tree, Chris? Otherwise, you go to walk over to the Pilsman's podcast right now. I'm all good on pregnancy on screen after the pitch. Fair. I think they've really...

Okay, my second point is, as someone who put in a lot of work over the last few years to really mainstream the mustache again, how are you feeling about Pedro's cultural dominance? I can only hope to ever look as beautiful as that man, and when it comes to facial hair and just general demeanor, you know, This mustache that I wear and I thank you for seeing it and recognizing it is a product of years of work.

And I think it's the quiet work that matters the most. It's the kind where it's not, oh, I'm having Rose of Kyle McLaughlin. It's like, you know, every day I get up, I make me trim a few hairs. Think about drummers. Yeah, and it's my little friend from COVID.

You know, it's like the one that I, it's my mustache is. Oh, that's the sign that you changed. Yeah. Yeah, we all changed. Wow. Yeah. That was a beautiful answer that I didn't expect. That's the joy of podcasting. But then I'm like, I sometimes I'm like, which I should just shave this?

You know, like, it doesn't really, this is not going to get any more robust. I'm not going to ever look as cool as I want to with it. But it's just like one of those things where you're like, it's just hard to say goodbye to a certain part of your life. Huh. Yeah. Should we hold some more space for this? This is, I feel like this is the realest I've ever got you on Mike. You didn't expect to.

Today would be your confessional pot. Don't do not clip this, by the way. Just like you with your mustache. Yeah. Do not clip it. Where do you want to start with this kind of round robin of TV? I'll start anywhere. I'm just watching you.

I see it reflected in your eyes that you're watching yourself open Instagram. And it's be like, God damn it. The fact that our podcast, as we've moved to video, has essentially become a rarefied prank show for Kaya and the rest of our good hang homies. to just get revenge on us? That's what polar is in it for. She just wants to see us embarrass ourselves. She does. The playoffs are here,

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instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. I do want to talk about Black Mirror. We can start there.

You made a reference to, you know, in relationship to The Last of Us, and I think that this is something that gets brought up a lot with TV shows that have an intense nature to them. It's like whether or not your real life is matching up with what you want to see on screen. Now, I think that there are certain things,

first of all, there are certain kinds of personalities where the two don't matter. Like, I can be in a very tumultuous time in my life. I'm fine watching tumultuous things on television, personally. I rarely am like, no, this isn't the right time for this kind of show. Right. But your mileage may vary on that.

That's definitely true. You've talked about that. So I was watching Black Mirror over the last couple of days, I would describe my wife as mildly engaged. I mean, very much a Black Mirror fan she is, but this season she was like mildly engaged. And I think we watched Common People,

which is the first episode starring Chris O'Dowd and Rashida Jones. And then it's quite sad. And we kind of dipped in and out. She dipped in and out of some other ones. And I liked more than others. But I was looking back at the release dates of Black Mirror. Yeah, that's what I was looking at as well. Season 5 came out the summer before COVID.

Season 6 came out the summer of 23, which now seems like the last good time in our lives. So this is, among the more dystopian, like hardcore, are we going to be okay moments for a show that basically says you're not going to be okay to come out. And so I, not to blow up her spot yet again, Kaya was mentioning, she was like kind of an intense time to be watching Black Mirror.

I picked the wrong week not to have a microphone. And I think that I wonder whether that has something to do with the fact that I've had fewer conversations with people about Black Mirror this time around. Now, I like a play thing because I really ride for David Slade as a director. He directed one of my favorite Black Mirror episodes, Metalhead. Oh, yeah. And also did the Bander Snatch experiment, which I thought was just really cool that they tried that. and play thing this episode does tie into Bandersnatch via a piece of casting.

It has an almost like Finchery 7 feel to begin with, but then turns into a cautionary tale about a little thing called AI. Don't know if you know about that. Peter Capaldi is in that episode as well as James Nelson Joyce from A Thousand Blows. He plays Stephen Graham's brother on A Thousand Blows, and we loved him. Tricle. Yeah. Common People is quite good.

it is laying it on a little thick that it's about a subscription service that keeps upping the fee on its essential medical offering while being broadcast on Netflix. But I thought the way in which they iterate on how that might work out.

I don't want to give away too much for people who haven't seen it for yourself. But I thought that was a very somber and well-done episode. And then Hotel Reverie is another one that I thought was pretty cool. that's emma corin and isa ray that's one that made me

kind of realize a little bit more that there are black mirror buckets and this is the Santa Junipero bucket this is the timeless but also doomed love episode you know you have your kind of aggressive borderline horror stuff that you can do

like white bear like metal head there are kind of entire history of you be right back wistful romantic episodes but yeah

I think that this is a solid season I have not watched the USS Callister episode yet a lot of people really like eulogy which is the Paul Giamati episode I mean the cast is hard to argue with yeah do you how do you feel

I mean this is a tough conversation that because I have not engaged with it but I am finding my resistance less to do with I'm not in the mood for dystopia and more to do with the fact that I don't really feel as open mind, I'll just be honest, I don't feel as open-minded as I would like to feel about six

new hours of this storytelling in my life all at once. Yeah. I, and I found that increasingly the case of my relationship with Black Mirror on Netflix. Like, I know ultimately Netflix doesn't care and that if my engagement with the show remains, I'll check one out occasionally, and it's nice to have them there in the service. And it's potentially no difference to them, whether I suddenly discover something in season five tomorrow than if I had in 2021 or 3 or whenever that season came out. But something about the way that it drops, this bothers me more than a binge of a serialized show. It just makes me want to not deal with it at all, honestly. Do you think it's because of the length of the episodes or the fact that you already feel under the gun to kind

of get to the one that's important or get to the one that the San Juan Aparo or whatever it is, because usually, you know, each one of these seasons usually has an episode. I think it's right. I mean, I don't think this is merits a lot, a deeper conversation. It also could just be the fact that, as we're alluding to in this overall, this podcast episode, there's a ton of TV right now. And it's a busy time. So it maybe I'm not as prepared or I don't have the, like, the real estate for it.

But it's, to me, it's less, it's more that it's not making, it's hard enough to make one decision for what to do with the Tuesday night. When Black Mirror drops, it's like, I have to make six micro decisions within the decision. It's, I mean, like, the easiest way to, go about it is honestly just to watch any given episode probably start at one and just kind of go through them and if you're like, I like this cast, I'll stick with it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not, and I don't want to this is not a sob story and it's not a hardship to watch great actors, you know, trying something out for Charlie Brooker. Yeah. But I, but I, I guess have they talked a lot about, well, you've talked to Charlie Brooker before too. Like, do they like this model for themselves?

Are they just happy to have the the, the Medici's funding their project? I think that to me this is an unambiguously awesome project every two years or so Charlie Booker comes back with about half a dozen or so episodes of the show he's got the freedom to do Christmas specials and one-offs he's got the freedom to do

interactive experiments he obviously still has the attention and the interest of a global class of actor that I think makes these episodes like you're immediately like I got to see what Emma Corrin is going to do in this episode. I got to see what Paul Giamatti is going to do in this episode.

There's an incredible talent on display. I find them to be very well directed and well written still. I think there's a certain element of, and I would love to talk to Charlie about this, because I think I've brought this up to him before. And he's like, actually, you know, the things that I know about that I think are coming in the future will make your, you know, really like you're going to make your whiskers fall out.

But it does feel like we are at one of those inflection points where reality is catching up with the future. Yeah. And so when you're watching episodes that are largely about AI hacking, biohacking, being yoked to corporations who are then holding your well-being hostage, all these things I think are very much in the kind of the air out there now. watching them happening in a not-so-distant future on a speculative horror sci-fi show, I don't know necessarily that it's almost like Black Mirror needs to go away for a while and then come back when we're closer to a new era,

but I don't want it to because I just like watching Black Mirror. Here's the thing that I would say about it, and this sounds more like a preview than anything else because, again, I have not engaged for the season yet, but I did go back and read the review that I wrote of Black Mirror back for Granlin in like 11 or 12, like 2011, 2012 after the first season, I think, was airing here for the first time. And it was also, and it's such a different era. I'm basically like, find any way you can to see this TV show because there wasn't one way to see it.

Well, that was like one of my, I think when I first found out about it was like reading European, like England football Twitter and people being like, it's time for Black Mirror tonight. I was like, what are they talking about? Yeah, you told me about it first. Yeah. And he was like, you could go to like these sort of pirate sites to download, download, those early episodes. The thing that I wrote about was how it's about technology, but it left me, honestly, one episode left me in tears I wrote about at the time. And what's interesting to look back on those early episodes and to consider them and maybe at some point to rewatch them is that it's not the tech that it predicted so accurately, but it is a certain range of emotions. Because the first

episode, everyone's like, oh yeah, the prime minister's fucks a pig. Yeah. Spoiler, sorry. But what that episode is actually about is a kind of absolute shamelessness and debasement, which is a lot more accurate about our current moment than, you know, a camera in your head that records all your memories. Yeah. Or a feeling of absolute despair or the actual chance of missing your lived life because of distraction. Yeah. Which ran through those first few episodes in a way that felt almost quaint. Like these are, if we're going to give the show an enormous amount of credit, which we should, And I shouldn't dismiss it just from a, and I hope, I mean, I didn't mean to sound as if I was dismissing it for saying like, oh, I haven't had time to watch it yet. Predicting emotional relevance a decade ahead is more impressive, honestly, than predicting technological advancement.

I'll fire it up. Okay. Wait, before we forget, I should have said this at the beginning. There is something very servicing. LeBuro is streaming again in America. Oh. Sorry. I don't know who's listening at minute 32.

Maybe I'll say it again next week. But we should have seen that this was going to happen. Paramount Plus has it. Yeah. And the entire series, the French series LaBiro, one of our favorite shows of all time, I think in arguably one of the greatest TV series ever made, the inspiration, quite literally in many cases of the agency,

is now streaming in its entirety on Paramount Plus. You can also buy the seasons on DVD on Kino Lorber. Look at you, old media. Well, I just, after it went away. Yeah. I was like, I got to, this, I was actually one of the triggers to start getting 4Ks in Blu-Rays. I was tired of stuff disappearing from services, things that I thought were like relatively

agreed upon as being like important movies. Now all of a sudden, like don't have a streamer. Like the Flintstone starting May 1st. And it's another thing where you're like, I have 10 subscriptions, yet these movies are still anywhere between $599 to rent and $12 to $20 to buy. So I'm just like, why am I doing this? Every time rewatchables comes up. And the Bureau was one of those things.

I was just like, I love this show. I will re-watch it at some point. It's worth it. It's worth it. And I think it's also, for people who haven't checked it out who are listening at this point in the pod, I think all of our, we did the whole series during COVID, right? And we did it on the pod. And you can find those on Spotify. Yeah, I can actually, I don't know where I'll share this, but we can put a playlist together of those episodes and just share the playlist.

Treat social. That's where I usually post, yeah. I know. Would you like to talk about a show that you were more ahead on or you want to do another. Yeah, we can talk about Dope Thief a little bit. It's aired six episodes. The seventh airs tomorrow, Friday. If you're, depending when you're listening to this, Friday, April 18th.

And the finale will be next Friday, the 25th. I am so compelled to think about and talk about this show, not entirely for reasons that make me happy. A couple weeks ago, we talked about the premiere and I stand by it. I think the first two episodes into the third episode of Dope Thief are among the most entertaining, exciting, surprising, fun, high-quality television of the year. Like, I was like, oh, it's fun to have another slot on the top 10 taken this early. That's how high I was on the show, not because it was reinventing the wheel in any way,

but because it was giving my favorite actor, Brian Tyree Henry, like a great showcase. And it felt like in its bones understood the assignment that it was, yeah, it was a crime show and it was a crime show set in Philadelphia, so we are obviously on board. but that it was a good hang show, which I think is often overlooked. The vibe between Brian Tyree Henry and Wagner Mora was elite. Very lethal weapony.

It had lots of recommendations. And just like the kind of show, you know, one day we can have a meta-conversation about how much of what we are enjoying is relatively simple and straightforward these days. Like I don't necessarily mean to be a shill for the marketing departments as we've been already this episode, to be like,

you can explain the show on the poster. But truly, mismatched down on their luck guys, get in over their heads. I mean, that's most movies that we like in the 80s and 90s, and it felt like it had that in spades. The wheels have fallen off this show so intensely in ways that are predictable, but also just kind of disappointing. The quality of everything is still extremely high.

But it really reached an idea. with the sixth episode, which I don't need to, I don't need to spoil if you're not keeping up with it. Let me ask you a question. Is the main driving force of the series still, he's on the run? Yes. So basically, the show has this, you know, the premise is these guys are robbing stash houses pretending to be DEA agents. And then they knock over the wrong house.

Yes. And they basically ignite a massive war between various factions, various criminal enterprises, and the DEA, and they are on the run because of it. Fundamentally, and this is based on the book, Dope Thief by Dennis DeFoya, fundamentally, this show is a movie to a degree that I haven't seen in a while because the central conceit only fuels urgency for a certain amount of time before you end up with an episode, like the one that aired last week, in which a character is having, is, is,

feverish because of an injury and is basically hallucinating his childhood for the 19th time characters he hasn't really met yet teasing the overlap. In this case, it's the Marin-Ireland character who's been on her own show for this entire run so far. And just stuck in this neutral of like, well, now we're acting and now we're doing

emotional stuff while the larger stakes go on, get put on the back burner. This is just, it's frustrating to me because it's a great story. It's a great conceit. It's a great production.

But it's completely lost its own sense of scale and of itself. It would have been, I think, an excellent movie. Or it could have been a TV series, but there are just some fundamental rules of TV series that make them series that go on for eight hours. It is not eight chapters in a long movie, and it simply can't be.

One of the ways that it kind of violates that is that by following these characters, stretching out their one, the most intense moment of their lives were stuck in a, dare I say, a bardo with them, emotionally speaking. So that people like Kate Mulgrew who plays Brian Tyree's mom

has been hammering one note on the piano so long I can't believe that the entire instrument hasn't collapsed. Ray, you're all over the place, yeah. And that's not a fault of the actor. Can I ask you? That's the character who is stuck in the same thing. And meanwhile, the Brian Tyree Henry character

is so far removed from the charming rogue he was at the beginning because he is on the long journey of his soul epic that the show has become. Meanwhile, and in order to make space for that, the character in episode six is basically allowed to suffer for 50 minutes while clearly all of the people who are out to get him are either listening or driving around the house, but do not choose to converge upon him with violence until he leaves the house for a set piece at episodes end. We shouldn't be asking those questions like, where are the cartels right now?

we shouldn't be doing that in a show like this. But by stretching it out, it's like epic length, that's where we are. Let me ask you about whether the pitch of this show, the sale of this show, like the conception of this show actually winds up him stringing the show down the line. So I'm going to pitch you dope thief. I can't wait. My version of dope thief. So what I want to make is a durable, long-running hangout show

between two guys who are down on their luck. These two guys one day realize that there is not a lot of oversight and not a lot of dotting eyes and crossing T's among drug dealers when they are getting invaded by the DEA, when they are getting, you know, arrested, infiltrated. Yeah. So you can essentially run up in their house. These are a bank you can rob and they can't call the cops. Right. Well said. Right.

Okay. The first few episodes are going to be leading up to these guys making the decision to do that. we're going to get a little bit of a picture of their home lives, the circumstances around why they would make a choice to do that, and maybe the end of the first episode is where they commit their first crime. And then by the end of the first season, they finally robbed the wrong house. And it starts this downward snowball of pressure leading to them going on the lamb.

And ultimately, it's a snapshot of a cast of rogues, a rogues gallery living in Philadelphia, trying to make ends meet, but never forgetting to laugh, Brian Tyree Henry and Wagner are going to be the stars. There's going to be a subplot of dedicated DEA agent who's noticing something weird

happening with robberies and eventually these three things will all come together. But it's built for, it's built to last. Yeah, you've pitched an excellent TV show. Take my money.

The reverse of this is kind of what happened is and I don't know whether or not Ridley Scott was like, I don't care whether I burn the whole story in the first episode. I'm directing the show. the first episode. I don't know how it works. But by the end of the first episode of Dobe Thief,

these guys were already, we've joined them in Meteores, they're already robbing drug houses. And at the end of the first episode, they are in the deepest shit they could possibly be. They have blown up a farm where meth is being cooked. That person has called them and been like, you're dead. The actual cops are on their ass. They're on the run. They're injured. And they've got to spend the next however many episodes, like you can't dial it down. No, it's exactly right. And Peter Craig, who wrote the series

and is the showrunner, and I think has really done an excellent job, is a film guy. We wrote The Town. And I don't think it was Ridley Scott. I think that this was talented people meeting the market and certainly meeting Apple's marketplace

where it was pre-strike. So all this is to say, I don't, I don't, I think it's kind of like the way we see light from the stars that is actually hundreds of years old when we look up into the night sky. Like I don't think shows like this are getting greenlit anymore. I love this episode. I, but I, I, my mustache, your astronomy. I think, um, first of all, it's astrology. No, it's not it's astronomy. Yeah. Um, should we do astrology? I don't, I don't subscribe to it. Really? Yeah. I've read some things that are very accurate about you. You've, really?

Let's do that one week when we don't have TV shows to watch. This wouldn't have gotten greenlit. Ridley Scott's involved and wants to make an episode his production company is into it. Brian Tyree Henry wants to do it and Apple wants to be in business with him.

Wagner-Mora's film career is starting to explode. He's not signing on to a seven-year contract. So all of the pieces pushed it in this direction and it ultimately ended up being, to my mind, it's disappointing that it's not the best possible version of it. It's the version that was going to get made. When everything about this could have been a really fun, it just could have been a, it could have been a, it could have been a contender. It could have been great. And instead, I think it's going to end up being something that was noteworthy that that had some really high highs, but is pretty disappointing ultimately. Yeah, I just wonder whether or not, I'm very curious about whether or not stuff is being pitched for, its stability rather than its flashiness.

And that when you pitch something that is like, wow, what a great idea. Like, I want to see that first episode right now. And then it's like, well, what's the third episode going to be like? And what's going to happen on the sixth episode? Unless we're making 24, there's no way to sustain this kind of electricity. But Doepthee has a massive shootout massacre to Quarry in the fifth episode. Like, they're answering the question, but it's not servicing. the characters of the story in a way

that I think would make for consistently compelling television. It's continually like Wagner Morris Mani chasing the high despite the damage that it does to itself. And that is kind of a bummer. To your point about who's pitching things, absolutely it is indicative

of a shift that is happening behind the scenes where the pitches now or with the questions being asked by executives are how can we extend this? How can we play this out over a longer period of time? But we're still kind of caught in the of those two eras of television as best evidenced by the other show that's on Apple's top 10, your friends and neighbors, which when we talked about it last week and we're going to continue to

talk about it, I think we both were jazzed by the open-ended nature of the pilot. Like, okay, we're locked in. Let's see where this goes and it has a little room to grow. There's some open road. It's already filming its second season. But the show did begin with what the executives clearly felt was the most exciting thing about it and then said, four months or earlier, or five months earlier. It would be great to find a world where we could actually just chill out and start a show, but I don't know. I don't know when we get there or what the success rate is.

I mean, ironically, I feel like the pit is like that. The pit is that, but it's so high concept, but it is like this can go on forever. And if there's seven episodes or an entire season of the pit where there isn't a mass shooting, there isn't something, nothing insane has happened. it's just your daily drudgery, I still think that you could reach the same dramatic heights. Weirdly, this will actually is a segue into our conversation to more comedies like hacks in the studio.

Yeah, let's do it. But this dynamic between how to pace things, how many times can you ring the bell or like really, really get people, like that is perpetually the dynamic of TV. And I think that it just remains interesting to me to be on the other side of the prestige mountain and be like, really, how often were we able, like, of all the great series, I was thinking about this the other day, it's 2025, and I still think that for many people, the Rushmore of TV, is some combination of the great difficult men shows, all of which were ongoing, none of which were announced as limited or event series, Sopranos, Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men.

How many... Girls. I mean, girls has a lot to say for it. You're trying to trip me up, but yeah. I'm not joking. But of when, and we can do this, maybe this is a separate thought exercise. But like, of all of the, holy shit, I can't believe they got all of these stars to align to make this limited thing. How many of them are actually in the pantheon of like limited limited?

Like how many of them are timeless, right? So like Chernobyl is perfect and incredible. I may destroy you. You might be on that list. I mean, I put your detective season one in there. I know that you resist that, but I think for a lot of people. Well, I'm not resisting that it's excellent. Yes, I am.

But I'm resisting right now because that was continued. And then there were sort of fits and starts, whether they connected to itself. I mean, Big Little Eyes was continued, right? Like, what do we? Right. What's an example? I'm saying how many of the like, holy shit, look what we did. And let's get out of here.

Well, I would put the night of in there, but I guess like the night of is. It's amazing. It's amazing. But it was also, like, had a little bit more TV to it where you think about, like, Terturo is not... Had a lot of TV TV. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, we don't need to get into, like, the existential conversation of it, but... That's a really good question, though.

Let's re-address that on another pod. I think that people kind of forgot it. That, like, not that you can just go into a lab and create another madman or whatever. You absolutely cannot. Yeah. And whatever comes next as the inheritor of that kind of mantle will probably, look and feel different as it should because those are dated in ways. And certainly, you know, on screen, but also production and like the attitude of the industry. But the shows that people

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18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. I for a long time thought HACS had way played out its sheet music. And it was kind of going back over notes and was not a huge fan of the previous season, the third season of Hax. Yeah. And find myself getting.

pulled back in this season. Tell me about it. You know, there's still several different shows happening within one show. There is the Deborah Vance home life, like, coyote poops and... Profound.

Yeah, like all of the kind of, like, domestic comedy that happens with her home. There is the now pretty, like, permanent Jimmy going out on his own to start a new management company.

comedy that's happening about like the town and then there is the Ava Deborah War of the Roses plot Yep I find myself weirdly compelled by the Ava Deborah stuff this year

and especially I think because they found a fun, cool place to put it which is this late night her getting this late night gig and becoming the new host the first female host of a late night show and something

that she's been waiting her whole life to get and Ava through machinations becomes her head writer against her Deborah's will and I think

that this show needed a some stakes beyond like is Debra gonna get back to the top of the mountain it's like now it's like

Deborah can still fail here right or we don't know what success or failure would even be and two it's like it just keeps the characters

off balance a little bit. I mean, you can kind of see an inevitable, like, we did it. High Five moment coming. But I think also there's like a tonal way that they're shooting and it feels good to be in L.A. They're doing fun stuff in L.A. So I think I'm kind of. A lot of good Glendale content. A lot of good Glendale content, but a lot of good Hollywood Hill stuff. A lot of good television city. Isn't that where Paramount used to be where they're shooting her show? Are they doing it at the television city? Is that where that is on like Beverly?

It was, yeah. Oh, is it gone? Yeah, I think they knocked it down. They moved Price of Right to the Valley. Oh, wow. See, if you blink, you'll miss it. You saw a deadhead sticker on a Cadillac. I'm enjoying it.

I'm enjoying it. There's jokes that I find are kind of fall flat for me, but I've enjoyed these first few episodes. I think, well, there's one moment in particular. in the second episode that cracked me open a little bit, and I was like, that's, that keeps me watching. And it's after Helen Hunt's big boss character invites Deborah and Eva to a lovely outdoor dining situation and basically reads them the riot act, that like, this isn't cute, whatever's going on between you, you don't actually realize how much quicksand you're in here. Yeah. And how, how short your leash is, basically.

And as they leave the dinner, Deborah says, kind things to Ava about what she's done for her thus far, and then gives her a hug. And the camera, I assume Lucia Aniello directed it, she often does, and lingers beautifully on Hannah Einders' face. And she's like, this is all I've ever wanted, basically. And she collapses into it, like,

she's finally gotten approval from her mother, basically. And then Debra's, like, smile because we're on camera. It's a beautifully staged moment. It's earned. It's built up to. It's beautifully performed. And it reminds us of like that core infinity stone that exists at the heart of this show. Yeah.

Across seasons that is that still has a little, has more than more than enough juice in it. And I was really happy to see that. Because otherwise, and I was with you on season, broadly speaking, I was with you. I was not a big fan of season three and feel like this is a. return to a form. I don't know if it's a form that is going to be just, you know, matching the admittedly very high highs of the first two seasons or if it's becoming something else entirely, which is awesome to see. And I think there's still, there's a lot more road here in terms of, like, what's the writing staff going to look like? And then what will actually,

what will it feel like to make a show? And what will it feel like watching their version of a show next to watching Mulaney every week? Which is more likely to get axed. We'll see. I'm reminded off. And I don't say this to give short shrift at all to, to Jen Statsky and Lucia and Paul, who created the show and are show running the show and write many of the episodes and direct them. But Mike Scher is an EP of the show for Universal. And at its best and at its most, hold on now,

hacks does remind me of some aspects of Mike's show running DNA. And I love Mike's shows. And from the office to Parks and Rec, it's a good place. But his shows are often, for talking about tension built within something, it's between an absolutely amazing and admirable. And I think in a low-key way, radical approach to comedy, an American comedy, which is always change, always try the new thing. Parks changed the status quo every year.

The Good Place took that to an almost incredible extreme. Yeah, like it was almost part of the construction of the show was to destroy the world every time. Yeah. Mixed with his other impulse, which is to make things very serious. squishy. And that is hard-earned, and I understand where it comes from. I mean, he talks often about, like, Cheers being his favorite show. And the sitcoms we grew up with, the thing about them, for every one of them, maybe with the exception of Seinfeld, they got softer because we loved the characters. The writers loved the characters. The actors loved playing, you know, and it sort of fell

into this pit of like, everybody's happy to be here, where everybody knows your name. And those two poles of hacks existence, purely from just a construction perspective, I find that interesting as it ping pongs between them. Because it times the fact that ultimately everybody here is, it's not show business, it's show friends, I think is rewarding. And we said this when we were talking about season one. This could have been a very conventional broadcast sitcom of like some nice people figuring it out with gags of the week in Vegas. And they resisted that. But the walls are always getting a little jiggly for me.

Like at any moment, the spikiness, which is so pronounced in the first two episodes, is going to go away. Yeah. So that they can just hug for real. Yeah. As long as the show is at its best, and it will, but then maybe they'll blow it all up again. Yeah. I think if anything, it does that cycle too quickly over the course of the series. You know, how many times can these two people betray one another then also show up for one another in a real way?

you know, obviously that's there's a kind of tension to it that I think goes above and beyond the typical sitcom tension if Ava was just Deborah's long-suffering writer who made, you know, okay boomer jokes a lot

and that was it. Like, I think that the show would be fine, but this is, this is, it's the perfect like 36-minute comedy plus show. Comedy Plus.

Well, you know, it's not, I wouldn't call it a dromedy. No. But I would call it a comedy plus. And sometimes, I do find I have to say

there are some of these scenes are like really elegantly shot or kind of evocative like Deborah driving at night and having to like move like go around the coyote and you know all the stuff that's going on with her psychologically and then it'll be like poop

poop on the floor jokes at Jimmy's office and it seems like that's happening in an almost different show. Sometimes it happens within scenes where characters are very heated and then one of them has a witty retort and the show stops for the other character to go, hmm, and then it moves on. You know, it's tough to match these things out. I know, yeah. I want to come back to at some point your definition of comedy plus because I do think it's

really interesting that the dominant comedies of this moment are the bear and hacks, neither of which are particularly funny with jokes. And I feel like the people who make them, I mean, Chris Storer would certainly admit it. I think Jen and Paul Nucci have a background in harder comedy, but that is not the project. and then to what's interesting to see is, and we'll talk about it more in the next couple weeks, but like Tina Fey is back with a show of four seasons on Netflix that we've both checked out.

As someone who has recently been rewatching Tina Fey or Tina Fey affiliated shows, just like 30 Rock, just to feel things again because it's so purely funny. But like I was watching with my girls, I was watching Girls 5 Eva, which really, the jokes are insane. And the ratio of that,

And it's just joke, joke. And they're at such a high level. It's interesting that Tina's back starring in a show for the first time since 30 Rock. And it is by nature and by design softer, more comedy plus. Yeah, it's a Mike Nichols thing. Yeah. And there's a great... I mean, it is an Al-Nalda thing.

But it feels Mike Nichols-y. There's a... I really enjoyed the interview, the cover story of Hollywood Reporter with her. And she's like, I didn't want to do the same thing. Like, it was actually more interesting and challenging to me. Anyway, yeah, just the fact that these are where our comedies are going is it you can look at it and say, this is a triumph of the malleability of the form, that the half hour can be so many things. Or you could be like, I guess I have to watch. I think you should leave again because I do like laughing also and I kind of miss it. Do you want to talk about the studio?

Oh, speaking of laughing. That's a comedy. Well, also speaking of Los Angeles and speaking of diving headfirst into the empty pool of. of Hollywood. So much diving and falling. We probably, I think the war has already come out, that episode. Yes, we're talking about two episodes four and five, which I think are actually well

paired. I have had Ike Barron Holt's season tickets since he played... This conversation I want to have. Since he's bound. Yes. Since he... I say, I can't remember if this is a deleted scene or not, but it's on YouTube, but the scene between him and Danny McBride where they're talking about him DJing. Uh-huh. And like,

who's coming to like their July 4th parties and how Griselle from the real world Roan World Challenge is coming if we could work out the flights. This is season two of you spell, I believe.

Isn't season two Mexico? Isn't he in Mexico? No, no, he's in, he's in minor leagues. Yeah, he's in the minor. He's Dershenko. Right. Yeah.

Um, so I've always really enjoyed him. It was fantastic to get a two-hander episode get away from Matt a little bit on the studio which is the Seth Rogen character and Chase Sue Wonders

and Ike Barrenholtz are so great just motherfucking each other for 30 minutes. Chris, this is the week Ike Barronholz became president. This was Infrastructure Week on the studio.

It's been funny, the Barronholz discourse has been robust during the run of the show because I think he has a very, very high-que rating and is a great guy. Kaya can confirm. I believe he was on good hang with Amy Poehler.

And the work he's been doing on the margins of this show is elite, like always funny, always with the right timing, always with the right tone and remark. Like just great, great comedic side man presence. But it was so well done this whole episode. The two of them are great.

Chase Sweet Wonders was awesome. And I, you said it just in passing, but for the life, for the longer term health of the show, and who knows how many years it has in it or how many years they want to do it, for Matt, that's Seth Rogen's character, to be just slightly plausible, was really a necessary corrective. Just because the first four episodes, he's such a buffoon. Yeah. And Rogan loves playing the buffoon. It's incredibly funny.

he, as I was saying, like, lunges to the floor or falls to the floor in every episode. But in this episode, just to actually remind both the other characters and the viewers that he has some stature or dignity. Yeah. And the way that he's just like, when the dude who did smiles in the office and he's just like, he just walks out. Because he's, what is he going to have, martinis with Hemsworth? Yeah. He's also, it's also been a little bit of a correction because I think that they have, as the season has gone on, they're starting to play more into his buffoonery and less moments of him being like,

I love Terrence Malick so much. Yes. So I liked the idea that he had never heard of Owen Klein, the other director, basically, and then was getting swayed, but then allowed himself to be swayed on his sway and just pit those two people together. And ultimately, he didn't care. Yeah. I thought that was excellent.

And I also, though, I really enjoyed the noir episode, which was the win before where Olivia Wilde and Zach Ephron. but it's, you know, bathed and shadows. Living Wild, not a fan of Blue Origin. Oh, has she come out and said that? She waited, yeah. Did she weigh in? She broke her silence?

Yeah. I noticed you're keeping your silence. You got some prime membership benefits you haven't yet? I'm open for an empty seat. That's just to get out. Yeah, I find the show, I find the show really pleasurable, and I also just think it's really, we say this every week when we talk about it, but I find it really noteworthy that,

of everything that's on TV right now and even when we're like, oh, Ridley Scott directed this episode or you're saying, you know, David Slay did Black Mirror and there's so many talented directors working in the medium, what Rogan and Goldberg are doing with this show

is the most aesthetically exciting thing. I mean, it's certainly built into the engine. I mean, it can make an ordinary dinner at Muso and Frank with two daughters not paying attention to their father. That hit a little too hard. Yeah. I got to say.

It's a hashtag girl dad. I really also thought having the quote unquote cameos be Parker Finn and Owen Klein in this movie felt a little bit more true to life than Ron Howard and Anthony Mackey and Zach Afron

and Olivia Wilde like that would be a Wednesday at this studio and that kind of those kinds of shenanigans of like him be like anybody got you any water yet he's just like yeah I've crushed like nine waters while I'm waiting here you know what about when he throws the burrito and hits the guy in the golf cart

who then drives into the set which collapses. Yeah, that's a really good joke. I really enjoyed it. Do you feel like, I don't want to belabor this, but the studio I think

kind of set its table of, you know, will he save cinema or ruin it as the sort of first episode? And then since then, I think has become a little bit more of a reliable laugh machine. And also loving

homages to different kinds of elements of filmmaking that Rogan obviously loves, whether it's one or it's noir, and in this case, I think it kind of found its range right here where it's like manic curb. I agree, and I hope that it settles my guess,

based on nothing. Like we said at the beginning, we're not watching ahead on the show. But because Rogan and Goldberg are, you know, inspiration chasing Ronin, like they don't necessarily want to just do one thing. I don't think. Is it Ronin?

Sure. Not Ronin? Like the accuser, Lee Pace's part in Guardian to the Galaxy? No, but like Ronan, like Robert De Niro. Oh, you know. Like, Ronan? I guess I don't know.

How do you call it? What do you say? When you talk about that movie, what do you say? Ronan. Okay, I've said. When you see Robert De Niro, John Frankenheimer's Ronin. No, it doesn't sound right when you say it like that.

But when I'm talking about, like, you know, traditionally Japanese wandering samurai, which is honestly more or a lot of it. often what I'm talking about. Do you remember the state sketch where it was like doing a joke highbrow lowbrow? And on

one side, there's like a bunch of British people talking about what happened in Parliament. On the other side, it's Ken Marino wearing overall sitting on a whoopee cushion. That's basically our dynamic, right? Who's who? Well, if you don't know, you're on the whoopee cushion. Anyway, just that

it would not surprise me if at season's end suddenly it snaps back like a rubber band into being like, this whole thing has been about Matt's journey to save cinema with this one movie and then a lesson is learned or he fails and then they'll be like, okay, maybe we'll do this again someday, but we're not sure.

The idea of it being just like, see you when we see you, we're back for more Hollywood curb, like, that's fine. That's fine with me too. I would be very fine with that. Do you want to do a little bit of Mullaney here? Don't you have to go? Well, I'd like to give you your opportunity

to talk about this project. We can revisit it. Oh, okay. But I want to say that it has been really, really interesting watching week-to-week and fun watching week-to-week, the evolution of a show that I love deeply. And I feel like Netflix insanely hamstrung when it came back by removing the thing, by removing the heart and the thing that made it work, which is Los Angeles. Because the original iteration of the show was everybody's in L.A. And it was a- For the Netflix as a joke.

A couple nights running, everyone literally was here, comedy people. But the show then took that as a mandate and ran with it as becoming sort of like a bizarreo, like local news, public access kind of thing about very, very niche and specific ideas and places and people that make the city more than what it is in the public imagination. And that was so, obviously we live here. So we got maybe some of the jokes, more of the jokes. But I feel like specificity is what makes things funny. and specificities would get Malini interested

like when he's like people enough people are talking about the documentary about the filming of the company cast album so I'm going

to make a 40 minute television show but that has a different kind of set of stakes when it's like an IFC thing but that is his comedy and that is what interests him

and Netflix was like clearly was like we want this to be a global event series and maybe we'll stumble into our own Conan or best case letterman right

and I don't think Malini wanted to necessarily do that so I thought the first few weeks were a little bumpy as it kind of lost its mandate, but we're still making the same show. Sure.

Where it's like John Waters and Fred Armisen talking about debt. But so it's like, first of all, I respect it. But in the last two weeks especially, I think it's sort of found a different rhythm and a different mojo. And it's sort of integrated the set pieces in more and lean more into just absurdist comedy, like how men don't actually know how tall they are. I miss the specifics of the LA thing. And I wish that they could just be honest and fold it back in. but shows like this don't come together

in six weeks or seven weeks and I wonder if at the end of this And neither did Letterman and Conan Totally and I wonder if at the end of this run Will the vibe be no harm no foul We gave it a shot or like maybe we're slowly getting somewhere And we're going to keep bankrolling it Let's hope so I hope they do

But also like we were saying with Rogan like Do people who have Do people who really are standing at the sizzler bar Of entertainment want to just choose one entree from the menu? I mean that's really the question that we're asking ourselves on this podcast today because we offered up a lot of different bites. Delicious bites, I thought.

You're still looking to me about my Japanese. You're just looking to me so sideways. Thanks a guy. Thanks for John. We'll be back on Monday talking Last of Us and friends and neighbors. Yeah. And I think what we're going to do is thinking of this, doing this live.

Tuesday is Andor. And we have a very special episode for Andor. So I think what we'll probably do is wind up releasing three episodes next week. Wow. What do you think? I mean, Kaya's the one with a busy schedule. What's good hang doing next week? Keep that big going.

I think the bit's great. I think she's loving it. Yeah. She seems to be really happy about it. Thank you, Kaya. Thanks to everybody for listening. We'll be back next week.