The Watch - U2’s ‘Songs of Experience’ and Best Songs of All Time, Plus an 'Ozark' and 'House of Cards' Update (Ep. 208)

Episode Date: December 4, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald catch up on 'Ozark' and where it fits into this year in television (3:00). They also discuss recent ‘House of Cards’ news (20:00) and U2’s new album, ‘Songs of Experience’ (26:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Mac Weldon with a smart design, premium fabrics, and a simple shopping experience, Mac Weldom underwear is definitely better than whatever you are currently wearing. In addition to looking and feeling great, all Mac Weldon products are crafted with natural fibers that have built-in performance capabilities, so they work hard too. They even have a line of silver underwear and shirts that are naturally anti-microbial, which means they eliminate odor, all that, and they're shipped right to your door. If you don't like your first pair, you can keep. it and they will refund you no questions asked.

Mac Weldon is a great holiday gift. Let me tell you something. People do not do the underwear refresh enough. And it is a forward thing to, I don't know if you and I are in a spot where I give you underwear. Wow, you mean like pre-worn? But if anybody in my life is, it would be you. No, not pre-worn.

I don't know what you're getting at here. No, I'm saying like I would just gift you some Macwolden underwear because it's just like I really like, thank you, man. That's solid. This is going to work. Go to macwellden.com and get 20% off your purchase. using the promo code watch. I ain't sports to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio who's gonna ride his wild horses? It's Andy Greenwald! Oh, you know it's a good day when the Bono accent comes out.

I love freaking out the Bono accent, sir. It just comes to you. Oh man, Andy today we are going to be talking about you two and their new album Songs of Experience. And then other than that, it's a grab bag. I want to hit Netflix's decision to move forward with House of Cards. Sons Kevin Spacey. Weird choice to recast the role with Christopher Plummer.

By the way, would be a great show. Probably would be. And we're going to hit on some other stuff. But you have a mystery segment to start the show with. We've never done this before. But I feel like we've been podcasting now for almost six years. And I feel like we can play around with the first. format a little bit.

Sure. And generally, yeah. We are kind of formalists when you think about. We're straight formalists. We really plan for these things. And so I wanted to try something where I deliver some news to you on mic. And so people, the people, the listeners can get. On camera, too, man.

Are we? Yeah. Which is my camera right now? Okay. Can we, uh, so we can really see your reaction in real time. Okay. You look nervous. I'm not nervous.

I'm actually like prepared to be appalled. Underwhelmed. No. Here's the thing. Chris, the over the weekend, people know that, you know, our lines of communication, and stay open during the week. Yes. We talk, we chat.

Uh-huh. We, we, occasionally, we even see each other. Saw you on Saturday. And Friday, though, I wrote you a text. And I said, I don't even remember what I'm supposed to be watching anymore. I have some free time. Yes. The kids were asleep.

Yeah. My wife went out. And then you gave me some kind suggestions, which I ignored. That's like, you can keep watching Godless. Yes. Yeah. You said maybe you want to watch some horse train. raining. I did something else. It's the holiday season. I did something for you. No, I did something

for us. I watched Ozark. What? You did? Yes, I did. Oh my God. I told you. How many did you watch? Chris, I've seen four episodes of the Netflix television show Ozark. I have never been more happy to be on a podcast with you. And here's what I want to say to you. What? Yes. What did I do wrong to make you think our relationship was so broken that you couldn't pull an executive card and say that I had to watch Ozark. Hit pause, man. Everybody who's in the control room, may God and our listeners is my witness, have I ever undersold Ozark? You said two things to me. You said two things to me. Well, you said one thing and you did another thing. One thing you said was, you probably won't like the pilot. Yes. Have we met? I just, no, you don't. You don't. You don't.

like pilots and you don't, I thought you might think it was just too crazy. This is like a pilot that went into a room with Colin Farrell, Circa True Detective Season 2. It's two seasons of a show in one episode. Can we intercut this podcast with the Ray Val Coro drug montage?

Because that's the pilot of Ozark. Yeah. Why would I not like that? Second, you were then, you backed off. I was a little resistant. I was like, I don't know, I'm kind of busy. You said I wouldn't like it. And then you backed off. And here's what I need. You need to push me in front of that train.

Yeah. House of Card style. Yeah. Because here's the thing about this show. It might not be good. Oh, but it's great. It's great. It's great.

Yes. It might be amazing. Yeah. This is one of the most... I'm like, you guys don't understand. He's physically shaking right now. Spiked when you did this. This is a fascinating thing. It is wild to watch this show.

I just spent most of Friday. Yes. wondering whether or not, like, how high I could feasibly put Ozark without having my, like, my internet access band. Right. Like, you know, in my top 10. Yeah. Where did you end up with it?

Three. But it's creeping up a little bit more, right? I would say, I'll look at you in the eye as one of your best friends, if not your best friend, and tell you that I enjoyed watching Ozark more than Twin Peaks. You know, I'm going to go out on a limb and say more things happen in Ozark. Yeah. We could talk about this in one of two ways. I've watched

I gotta just see what happens in the first four episodes so just you keep talking What happens? Literally everything happens There's nothing left to happen The next four episodes They could just be on a boat

Or just could be Julia Garner doing dishes That's fine There's more than enough has happened So you ended it four Yeah Where Jason Bateman explains how to money launder Well can't you hear me knocking as playing That's the beginning of four

Yeah That's just how it starts Yeah I mean there's a lot There's a lot to say here because we could talk about the specifics of it. And I feel like a lot of people who listen to this podcast have watched it on their own, by their own free will. And we don't want to spoil it for those who have it. I feel like we're waiting on for me to say.

We're in the spoil Ozark zone. But what I really want to say, before we go into the spoil Ozark zone, I want to do one very chaste, boring, un-Ozark thing when I talk about it, which is, which is sometimes I say on this podcast, put on your industry hat and it's fun to watch things to learn about how TV is made. Sure. If you ever, if you have that hat in your closet, take that hat out, do three lines of speed, don't really do drugs, and then watch the pilot. Because weirdly, the reason I didn't watch it was because the general layer of static I heard about it without reading too much about it, in case I did watch it, I didn't want to spoil it, was that it was basically like it was just so derivative of Breaking Bad. So attempting to be like this broken man, difficult man in a difficult situation story that has become very played out on TV. What I didn't realize in watching the pilot is that it may actually be a way forward for television. I don't know if it's the right way forward.

By doing these kind of Nerf football versions of prestige television shows? No, by just literally Jackson Pollocking every fucking crazy idea all at once. Right. But having six character turns in two episodes. But to be fair, that actually sells it short. Yeah. Because weirdly, in the midst of this cocaine fever dream that is the show, there is some sensible plotting. There is some attention paid to character or family dynamics enough to care. And then there's a subplot about the FBI agent who's like Michael Shannon Light.

Yeah. Just getting full head jobs and like thinking about stuff delivering monologes with a shirt off. And Harris Eulen walking around with an oxygen day. And then Harris Eulen is in the show. Like there is definitely too much, just too much. Yeah. But I think that... But all shows have too much.

That's television. Yes. I would rather have too much in this way. I would rather have this party go for a little too long than have a little too... Than have too little of it. Like, so did we need the ex-lover FBI agents? Probably not. Right.

I mean, it's just an extra thing. Did we need Harris Eulen's ass? I found the relationship between the FBI agents. agent and the bait salesman quite tender though. Yes, right, right. See, that's the thing. It always pivots. But just before we even get into it, like the way the pilot works, which is to say, I don't

even know if it works. It's crazyness. It's funny that you should say this, because one of the reasons why I responded way I did when you were like, what should I watch right now is that I have been, I have beginnings fatigue right now. Yes, this is what I wanted to talk about. I'm getting worked up to start a story from the beginning, be like, oh, and this is how we're introduced to this person, and how will they interact with this person, and how will they interact

with that person? And just like that kind of feeling of, okay, I know kind of where we're going, and I wish we could just skip ahead a couple of steps. Yes. Ozark takes the steps up to the top of a condominium building and throws them off the balcony. It does. And you are just so deep inside of this story so fast, the entire premise of Ozark, which is that Jason Bateman has been laundering money for the mafia.

No, for the Mexican drug cartel, is the thing that you should find out midway through or the end of season one. And it should be a huge moral crisis for the main character that he's doing this. And it has to be because his daughter is sick or because of something. He is just a guy who is trying to play the odds. He's not that broken up about working for the cartel. No, that never seems to bother him whatsoever. And the level of like I am being pushed off the, I'm the Wiley Coyote going right off the cliff.

And I'm like, that is that shot of Wiley Coyote off the cliff is the place that this show exists. Yes. That is the tone of this show. And I respect the hell out of it for it. You are right. The entire first season of a TV show. And I don't mean a TV show like Hill Street Blues era. I mean a TV show now.

Yeah. Would be the first 15 minutes. of the pilot. And when you talk about fatigue, when we see the relationship in the first five minutes between Jason Bateman and his partner at the, dare I say, ill-fated financial management company that they are running early on, the fatigue comes from seeing the road being paved in front of you. I get the dynamic between these guys. This guy's a loud mouth and an alpha, and Jason Bateman takes it, and it's the one who's doing the work. We see how this is going to play out. He was, like, very big about how this is a, the judge,

Justin Charity called in a while back and was like, this is a show for cucks. By the way, I was on that podcast. Yeah. I was probably just checking my menchies. Because I was not going to come watch the show with you guys. Let's just say that version of the show ends in a hail of bullets early on. It's, let's talk Bateman. Did you get to, did you get to, can I just ask you a really quick question?

Let's do Bateman. You're right. Let's do Bateman. Well, just to say, he's great. But what's really interesting about it is, when I was watching the pilot, I was like, he's not only delivering a very good performance in this. He is, whoever is directing him is. That's what I'm getting to. I mean, Bateman directed some of it.

Whoever is directing him understands how to use him in a way. Yes. Someone who we are familiar with in a certain way. Someone whose skills are the slow burn, the reaction being the straight man. someone who will look at this guy who is when he's shot in close up, like he's a handsome guy. He's been an actor for a long time. He has like a typical Hollywood actor bird body with like remarkably good head of hair.

But they shoot him in the frame where he looks kind of small and puny, especially compared to these more muscular guys. Yeah, also he dresses in very flat colors, like earth tone kind of like just really like he looks like a modern day accountant. And they do a very good job of flattening his visual representation so that his person and his personality. which is, you know, I've seen some people be like, oh, he's kind of on the spectrum, but I don't think he is. I think he's, whether he's a sociopath or not, I think you could make, you could have a whole debate about it. Yeah. But it's an incredible performance because most people, I mean, you saw Cranston ring every bit of marrow from Walt's transition.

Bateman starts at beyond the point of no return. Yes, he's already done. And to what you said, Bateman directs it. So he has a real sense of himself. He seems to have a real sense of what this material is and what it can be. And there's a sense of control to the whole thing. And this guy, Bill Dubuque who wrote it, also wrote The Accountant, which is another, like, low-key internet favorite, for not necessarily the reasons you think. But then maybe those are the reasons he thought all along.

I mean, the show exists on a spectrum. And it's not the spectrum you were referring to in terms of the main character, but the spectrum of, is this bullshit? Yeah. Does it matter? And the answer to the second question, I'm pretty sure. is no, because look who you have here. We have Laura Linney here. We have Julia Garner, who I love, who's just terrific.

Jordana Spiro is really good. Jordana Spiro is great. Did you get to Peter Mullen yet? Did he show up? He hasn't even shown up yet. Okay. The kids are well cast, and the attention paid to them is sufficient. You know, it is a very rare thing in any TV show where I find myself happy to see B&C characters

early on. So it's just, I can't believe I'm saying this because I want to say that half of the season of the show that I unjustly ignored should be studied for how to make TV in the Netflix era because I do feel that any, not anyone, but a majority of the people who study this will take all the wrong lessons from it. It's so easy for this to be wrong and misinterpreted, so easy that I misinterpreted it without watching it. Yeah. Because I thought it was a different thing. But it is hell entertaining and you want to watch to see if the coyote looks down and falls. It has. That is part of the pleasure of watching the show. It is pleasure.

I was thinking about it yesterday. And when I was relieved to see the Eagles losing, I knew I could squeeze out another episode before I dropped the surprise on you. Yes, that's good. But let's also just say that I saw you on Saturday evening and I was a little distracted. I feel like I didn't put in a good social showing.

Because of Ozark. And I think it's because all I wanted to say to you was that I had watched Ozark, but I didn't. So now you know both why I was a little bit, maybe a little bit spacey. Everything, I mean, like they just did such a good. good job. They did such a good job with the locations. And I want to talk about cards, but I think one of the hallmarks of these Netflix shows has really been their huge amount of money that they spend on sending shows to the place that they want to shoot. So even if they're shooting Hawkins, Indiana, in Atlanta for

Stranger Things, they do a good job of, like, creating a space. And it really does not feel like you're in the back lots of Burbank. And the setting and the locations of Ozark, I think, go a long way. If this was, If this entire show had been set in Chicago, I don't think it would have been... No, although Chicago looks great in the pilot. Chicago looks really interesting. And I think also this is a, it's a buyer's market, a viewer's market for television, and little things that I used to write off, nitpicks that I would say aren't valid, have suddenly become valid.

And one of them is location and just the physical production, the space, how it looks. I was of the opinion that some networks had more money than others, and things could be good regardless. but people have been asking me to talk about the last season of Halt and Catch Fire. And one of the reasons I'm struggling talking about is because the things that I love about that show are present in the last season. Yeah. Great performances. How wonderful. What a gift to have a show that is really just about the interaction of these characters in a certain, in a period of time. But one of the reasons why I struggled with the final season, and the main reason we can talk about this maybe in our year and TV podcast that we're going to do next week is there's just a remarkable lack of stakes, which is not the problem. Yes.

In conflict. the problem with Ozark. No. Ozark is basically like wealth management scandal. Yeah. But one of the problems with Halt and Catch Fire is that it is, it moved for its third and fourth season from, it was in Texas to supposedly to the Bay Area, to San Francisco and Silicon Valley. It films in Atlanta.

The outskirts of Atlanta do not look like Northern California. Yeah. And because of that, there is something flat and removed from the show because we are now in this glorious, rich era where you, you. You see, it's all part of it, is what I'm saying. And that does matter in Ozark as well. It knows that the setting is a character, and it knows how to take advantage of that.

It's a weird, this is a weird time. What was your experience making your top ten list and this argument you're having with yourself about whether... Pure pleasure. I don't feel like this has been a year of the envelope being pushed with the exception of Twin Peaks, so I was looking for the things that really made me

happy and really made me happy to be watching television. Even if the content that I was watching was dark, I was like, this is what I want to be doing. And I think I felt over the course of the year, and, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with the outsized place that political drama takes in my life now. And I think for a lot of people, it's like you're just reading about the country in a way that you didn't four years ago, maybe, if that's, if that happens to be, I think anybody is probably like caught up and what's going on, I find that my brain is just programmed differently. So I want different things from television than I did a few years ago. And that being said, I think that there have been these innovative things, whether you're talking about innovations

and things like BoJack, which is at once an animated show, but is also like a drama, but is also a cartoon. No, what I'm saying that there are these shows that are innovative. And Twin Peaks might be the most innovative of any show ever. But what I was going for and what I kept going back to was a degree of comfort, which I think television really did provide for most of the beginning of its, most of the first few decades of its existence was a nightlight. Yes. And what it seems like we're talking about, actually, is a, is a demarcation that has existed for much of our life, except it used to exist between the TV and the multiplex, where we were comfortable going to the movies for it to be challenged in a limited setting.

And at home, watching TV, it was just. generally more about pleasure, comfort, escape. I'm speaking very generally and broadly here, but some of the challenging journeys that I have been thrilled to go on this year on television were limited, and I knew that going into it. So whether it's Twin Peaks, whether it's the young Pope, whether it's top of the lake two, or even godless, if any of those shows were presented to me as we got 10 hours of this and then 10 more hours next year. Now, obviously Twin Peaks is a separate case because it's the joy of my life. But even that, even that, it was, the pleasure was derived from its limited nature. In terms of the shows that are going

to keep going going to be, shows that I discovered this year that I'm eager to keep going with, I think that's correct. I think, and we're not going to burn our list today. We're going to do that next Monday. But that is an interesting divide to come across. And it speaks to what I went through on Friday, what my journey was on Friday, I think in a microcosm is what a lot of people experience with TV these days, which is, well, I know that there are these 15 things that I'm supposed to watch or things that I would even enjoy continuing or taking a look at, but the thought of firing up the Apple TV or the smart TV or whatever you're using and then just going through all the options is exhausting.

It kind of reminds me of the way I feel about college basketball, which is that there's not a lot of continuity. So basically, when you're always starting something new, it's impossible to have the same investment in it than you did with something that has been going on for several years. Even if it's just the, hey, this actor is now in a new show. It's like, there's so much stuff to choose from right now. But the problem with that is, is just the volume of new stuff. Makes it difficult to keep up with things like Halt.

Like, you know, even like Fargo for me was a challenge because it was starting over with a new. I like the Fargo tone already. I'm ready to be into Fargo. It's just like, I was like, I would just be fine extending what we've already done. You know, keep going deeper into the part, into a story that we've already covered on. Fargo rather than starting again in a new time period with a new setup with a new shot of a frozen tundra. And I think that that was something that I reacted to a lot over the course of the year. One of the shows that did give me a lot of comfort and I obviously have a lot of mixed feelings

about it now, given what we know about Kevin Spacey, is with season five of House of Cards. I just really, I find that they had to hit a point where they just knew how to pace that show and they knew how to make that show wildly entertaining. We just found out today, and this is the little of news, is that they're going to bring it back for a shortened final eight episode season without Kevin Spacey and that they are working to creatively write him off of the show.

I don't know how much creativity you need. Are you familiar with the one panel when Pucci returns to his home planning on The Simpsons? I would imagine we're in for something like that. I think that that's going to be the template creatively for the decisions they're making. Does this make, you know,

do you think that this decision is morally justifiable? Is the right thing to do to be like, you know what, this, this project is tainted, let's put it in the dustbin. The thing that is difficult to square in the light of all of the horror stories that are emerging from Hollywood and other industries over the last few weeks and months is the cost, the cost not on victims, which cannot be discounted, but on people who are working, working people. When this news broke, House of Cards was about to go into production or perhaps

it had even started. They were there in Baltimore. They were already there. And so you have to think about the sheer number of people who are employed by this production. Not just actors, of course, but local crew, drivers, gaffers, caterers, everyone. When you reduce a series, a season order, you are fucking with everyone's money. And that matters. Now, I'm not saying that they should have continued the show despite his predations and all that,

but they had to balance that. and they had to do justice to all the other people because I think that one of the, maybe this is true of all enterprises, but it's certainly true in television, in my experience on all sides of it, it is very proudly a collaborative medium and very proudly, you know,

a shared experience and a shared effort. And to say that this is a reference, that the entire show is because of one man, one man who is now tainted by his awful behavior, I think it would be a difficult sell for the people who've given so much to the entire enterprise. say that as someone who's not even a fan of the show. Yeah, and I imagine that Robin Wright will be that much more of a focal point this season. Yeah, and it's, you know, not for nothing, but there

has been a lot of talk, you know, that people would rather watch the Today Show without Matt Lauer. People like Robin Wright's performance more than Kevin Spacey's performance. I don't think that is revisionist history to say. Yeah. That she was the one that people were pretty hyped on the last few years. So it's interesting, but as someone who hasn't been a fan of the show, just the sheer logistics and gymnastics of making this work is interesting and compelling, and I have sympathy for everyone involved, but I just don't know. What art comes out of this, you know? Similarly, transparent, you know, are they going to continue the show? What is the show? These are all, we've said this before. These are questions for another day, except in terms of House of Cards,

that day seems to be. Yeah, so we'll have to see what happens. I imagine that season will come on sometime next year. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we will be back to talk about the new album from you too. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by credible.com. Credible.com is an online marketplace for student loan refinancing. Using credible.com's simple platform, it takes less than two minutes to find out if you are overpaying on your student loans. You can save thousands by refinancing. All you have to do is visit credible.com slash watch, answer a few questions, and right away, you'll get real rates, not ranges of rates, from multiple lenders. Checking your rates will not affect your credit score, so you really have nothing to lose. The average user

who refinances through credible.com saves almost $19,000 over the life of their loan. And for a limited time, watch listeners will get a $200 welcome bonus when refinancing through credible.com slash watch. That's credible.com slash watch. Today's episode of The Watch is also brought to you by Casper. Casper is a sleep brand that continues to revolutionize its line of products to create an exceptionally comfortable sleep experience one night at a time. With three mattress models, the original Casper, the wave, and the essential, Casper mattresses are perfectly designed to soothe and cradle your natural geometry.

Not to mention, the breathable design helps you sleep cool and regulates your body temperature throughout the night. And it is delivered right to your door in a small, how did they do that size box with free shipping and returns in the U.S. and Canada? The best part is that you can be sure of your purchase because Casper's 100-night risk-free sleep-on-it trial. After all, you spend a third of your life sleeping. You should be comfortable. I love my Casper mattress. We use it as a guest room mattress for any number of visitors who come through. Wow. Yeah. Maybe if I came over and had too many La Croy waters. If they have any on-the-run money launderers?

Just happen to pass through? They can just hit the Casper. You're generous. No, it's a great mattress. And the convenience of its delivery cannot be overstated. Part of the overwhelming part about mattress shopping, aside from the fact that you're doing it for like 15 minutes and then you're like, I don't know, I guess I'm making this decision, is it comes in a box.

Check it out. You can sleep on it for a while. And if it works for you, you keep it. If not, send it back. Start sleeping ahead of the curve with Casper. Get $50 toward any mattress purchase by visiting casper. dot com slash watch and using watch at checkout that's casper.com slash watch offer code watch for $50 off your mattress purchase terms and conditions apply we're back to talk about you too andy

you two and you two put out an album on friday which you know 14th 14th album it's called songs of experience it is the companion album in some ways to songs of innocence which was the infamous album that showed up on everybody's iPhone yes this show this album shows up for free and everyone's Zune. It's just immediately. Whereas that Songs of Innocence was an album that was largely inspired by their childhood in Ireland. Songs of Experience was

supposed to come out, I think the same year as Songs of Innocence. And they were like, we're really just, we're cooking right now. I find that no one ever actually delivers when they're like, we're really cooking right now. There's another album on the way. So it always happens. Well, also. And even if it does happen, it didn't need to. It's weird.

I was going to begin by saying how strange it was to see. see a band like you two so obviously flop sweating their way towards what they felt needed to be a major statement and a major hit. But this happened 20 years ago with pop too, which was delayed and sucked. And pop was supposed to be a companion piece to Zeropa? No, it was just like, it was just delayed multiple times while they were like, we don't have the hit songs yet.

Yeah, and they've kind of since, I think since Zeropa, their line is kind of, we're back to save rock. You know, over, I think they've multiple times made that case. Well, the big one was, all that you can't leave behind. With Beautiful Day, they said, we are back, we're back to audition for the open position, the job of best rock band in the world, which was great marketing, great timing, and pretty good album, great song. Yeah.

And it paid off. It's weird. So, anyway, I was going to say it was weird to see you two doing this, because we think of you too as this canonical rock group. Why are they going through this same very? public struggle like Katie Perry did, where it was just like, no, these singles aren't working. Let's keep reworking it. Let's keep reworking it. Oh, the album's a turkey. And yet. To their credit, I mean, they were also like the world changed while we were sort of putting

the finishing touches on this record and it made us reassess what it was going to be about. So that's what you tell the media. That's their line. But I think the bigger point is, and I think this sort of informs the conversation we want to have about them, this is always what you two has been. You two, and I think there's a really great review of this record on Pitchfork that puts it in, the doubt today, that puts this kind of in context, that strips some of the mythology away from the band, whatever mythology was left after the last 10 years or so of public. What's the last U-2 record that you like? Did you like no line on the horizon?

But just to say that they have kind of always been a weather vein for the popular sentiment and almost spins that, even though it's a mostly mixed and negative review, spins that as a positive about the ban. One of the reasons why they have persisted as a band making new records. Because here's the thing. They go on tour. they're the highest grossing tour for that year. They can be a jukebox tour act easily, and they could have 20 years ago, too.

Among all the bands in that stratosphere, they're, I think, the only remaining one that insists on grabbing the microphone and saying, no, no, we have something more to say. Yeah, and I think that they've talked about how, no matter what is sort of in vogue at the time, and they sometimes pull hammies trying to make their sound kind of fit whatever they think is the hip sound at the time.

that in the pitchfork review, they compared a couple, one song on songs of experience to XX. And I don't know that it really sounds like the XX, but the point is well taken that I'm sure someone passed the James, you know, the way the Jamie XX solo record. The way the chorus works on You're the Best Thing About Me, which is a weirdly tepid single. Yeah. From a band that would always have barn burners as singles. The way the chorus, I am not a musicologist. I cannot describe this appropriately. I haven't been a critic in a long time, but it spreads out and spells out in the same way that Coldplay has figured out how to do it,

and the same way that the chain smokers schedule their choruses in a way to sound equally okay on any number of devices. I think that is the kind of thinking they put into this record. You asked the last one I liked. I mean, I think all the you can't leave behind was probably the last good record. There were three or four good songs on how to dismantle an atomic bomb, and it's been downhill ever since. Right. And Nolan on the Risen was the last one that they made with Eno and Lamois,

who are the producers behind their sort of, you know, the canonical U2 albums. And that produced the classic track, Fez slash Being Born. Also produced the classic narrative of, we made this in like a Moroccan, you know, like shed somewhere in Northern Africa. The narrative matters for this band,

but I like that. I like the fact that these guys give us something to talk about. You know, I think that that is noticeable in Radiohead's sort of late period is that Radiohead is sort of, if you keep saying we can't take the scrutiny or the scrutiny is driving us nuts for long enough, people will listen and stop paying

attention in the same way that they did when you were the pulse of pop culture. The police turn off the cameras, like don't invade our personal space narrative, runs a little dry when people don't really want to put the cameras on. Yeah, it turns out that like if you want to, you don't have to wonder how to disappear without being seen. I mean, you can just do it. Yeah. You could stop writing songs. It sound like you want to take over the world. Right, right. And I don't think you two's ever stopped doing that. The only difference is, and I guess this is shots, but it's the only difference is now they're working

with Ryan Tedder from One Republic to try and figure out how to do that. There has always been a crazy amount of thirst to this band. I mean, go back 30 years to their quote unquote classic period, and they're the band that was like, we're going to hire

a movie director to film us going to Memphis. Yeah, they're the band who is like what echo, why don't we just take what Echo and the Bunny Men do? Not, I'm not to reduce it to that level, but they essentially took what Echo and the Bunnyman did and said, but what if we did it using the language of Bruce Springsteen? What if we did it using this sort of like, everybody collectively can understand a sentiment like in the name of love? Yeah, and also to be like, we're the most important American band after 9-11,

even though we're from Ireland. And I don't even mean that they kind of were. Let's talk about this record. Do you want to talk about the record or do you want to talk context? So there's one other context thing that I want to say, which is we work with a bunch of kids here. And these kids literally don't know anything about this band. And I'm not saying you should because that's kind of boring to go do your old white band homework. Sure. But this is one of those moments when we can sing our own songs of experience, Chris. And I think it's important to convey to people the size, the, the, size, the, the,

the heft on culture, of the footprint that this band put on culture. In 1987, we are 10 years old, Joshua Tree comes out. And I imagine this was like, in one of the last examples of this, what it was like in the 60s or 70s, like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, where it's like this band is back. They have made something that is perfection and quote unquote important with things to say. And they are astride the culture like a colossus. and then to come back with a quote-unquote dark record

and scuff up their hair and wear leather and go to Berlin and make Akhtung Baby, which is a perfect record. It's one of the best albums of the 90s. It's one of the best albums in the history of rock and roll. Yeah. It is unimpeachable. The importance of that is,

it's very hard to convey a rock band doing that, but then it's also pretty remarkable to say that, okay, so nine years after Akhtung Baby, they could say, oh, we're back to audition for the role of rock band, and then do beautiful day and do it again. So the fact that they had this long of a run is truly remarkable. The thirst is important because I think that the thirst thing, one of the reasons why Octong Baby is so relevant and so resonant with so many people

is that I think that unlike, say, Prince or Bowie, but specifically Prince in terms of that generation of 80s and 90s artists, you two never really set the agenda with the exception of Octung Baby. You know, even their records that... That record basically turned off the lights on the 80s and opened up the 90s. Yes, yes. And was probably their most deeply felt and creative record, I thought. I think that they have superficially, like more emotion on other albums,

but there is a lot more going on on Octung Baby. They, like all of us, were deeply affected by the promise of a financially unified Europe. Yeah. I mean, that's what I, I remember, when that record came out, and then like Zeroppa. Yeah. And I was like, oh, man, Europe's going to be lit this decade. I got to get to Berlin.

I could get a train pass and go from Germany to Switzerland. Oh, my God. Like, this stuff mattered back then in a way that is really hard to convey. But the pitch for it. But they've always been good at mixing the old and the new. They were an archetypal band of like the long-haired front man who was the poet and the guitar genius side man. They were very...

What about the lascivious basis? You don't want to throw that guy in there? What about the drummer with Tiger Woods level back in? That is one of the low-key things about Larry Mullen Jr., who is, I really have a lot of time for as a drummer, is that he is an incredible amounts of pain all the time. All the time. Yeah. He has, like, titanium-enforced spine.

And he has, like, a special drummer's chair that he has to sit in because I don't understand how he can tour this much. Like, if my back seizes up a little bit, I'm like, I don't think I can podcast today. Sure, because that's where you derive your strength from. Like drummers, it all comes from the lower. back. Do you have anything of note to say about this album itself? I did just want to make one other point that I appreciated from the pitchfork review, which is that basically it manages to articulate something that I think has been tough to say, which is you two, we are about to criticize the new

album to some degree, but it's tough to criticize a band for still wanting it so badly when the much easier thing to do would be to mail it in. They just did it. They went and played Joshua Tree and Rob Harvilla called it like the best concert he went to in 2017. They are still certainly worth seeing live. And they have such a diverse, interesting catalog. They could go play medium-sized arenas and only play B-sides, and it would sell out.

You mean, I could get my lady with a spinning head fix? I knew you're going to say that. I would love that. But the new record, look, you know... I'll say this. I am not mad at... Long pause. As I scroll back up to the... Larry Mullen Jr. I'm not mad at Red Flag Day.

Which one? Red Flag Day. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. It's a U-2 record in 2017. I'm not even mad at Landlady. Is that weird? It's a little weird. Yeah. It's a little weird. How do you feel about the Kendrick feature? Well, yeah, and how do you feel about the Heim feature? It's tough because part of me wants to ding them because they have always been dingable. Like, that's the thing about this band, that they existed through the 90s. I remember one of my best indie rock buddies from college just always carried the flag for you too, even when the point of rock and roll, according to us, and you were like this too in the 90s was to record it on a four track

with an out of tune guitar. The whole point was to get as quote unquote authentic or as small or as intimate as possible but he was still like squinting and saying like the song the Playboy Mansion off of pop has its moments

you know. That was the thing about Octune Baby it's worth mentioning that that was from that until like melancholy and the infinite sadness is probably the highlight of my radio listening life because I did love

obviously like my my love of music only grew exponentially as I got older and then stopped. Completely. Dead stop. But from, you know, around 91 to 95, you have these stations, especially in, in Philly, I think we had like Eagle 106, we had Q102. WDRE. Was Q102?

Pop. It was pop. You're thinking of 103.9 WDRE. Thank you. That would play five, six, seven songs deep off of an album. Even if they weren't singles, they'd be like, man, everybody wants to hear Porch, you know, we're going to play that off of Pearl Jam. So that was what was so great about Octrine Baby was they were playing ultraviolet. You know, they were playing, I mean, I don't know if they were playing

acrobat, but they were playing songs going deep. So it's weird now to be at this place with the band and just be like, ah, these two songs. Yeah, and we'll probably never hear from this album again. Well, I was thinking about this. I wonder why, I feel like this is under, I don't know if it's underreported, but I don't feel like we think about it often this way. Why someone like Tom Petty could RIP could continue to make

songs that weren't, I'm not going to make the case that Highway companion was necessarily relevant to

culture at large, but continue to make good music that felt true to him. And obviously

he is completely unique in a lot of ways in that he and Prince as well

and Bowie. Like they were singular visions. They knew what they were good at and they took chances

but they always stayed pretty true to the spine of what they did. But I think

that there's a difference because the thing about a band that makes a band interesting as a construct is the friction and the chemistry of the reaction when you put these people together. And the idea of what Bono thinks is good, can you imagine Bono on his own?

I mean, it would be horrific. But Bono tempered by the instincts of the other guys makes sense. Yeah, and I think that this band working with different collaborators. I think they... Well, that's why they keep reaching out. Yeah, and I think that Eno and Lanwhal gave them a certain gravitas and a certain creativity that they didn't necessarily have inherently. And artistic bonifides. And I kind of feel like Teter and Jack Knife Lee are like sandpapering the edges a little bit too much. Yes, but I also think that after 40 years, and this happens after 20 years often, but after 40 years, whatever frictions existed that sparked creatively. But you're asking why don't they just have a moon-shaped pool? Why don't they just put out a record that's pretty good?

No, no, no. I'm saying they can't. A band fundamentally loses its spark because it becomes about recreating something that existed between people as opposed to one person. person in charge, basically, following his or her own muse throughout a longer career. I think bands just naturally peter out. I think also bands become incorporated. The reason to still be in you, too, is to give you two fans a good time when they want to spend $200 to go see the stadium.

Except I don't think that's the reason for Bono. I think he's still... Well, I would say, I don't think that Bono doesn't want to be at the center of a 60,000 in-person arena. He does. I think he does. but I think that playing the part of Bono is more important to him than being Bono.

Yes, and I think that if you look at Octung Baby, and as you know, I have a very deep conspiracy theory about why Octang Baby is good that maybe I'll share on our podcast after dark one day to avoid the podcast. You've done this before. We cut it out of the last time we did it. Did we really?

It was too litigious. I have a theory, though, guys. When we do a live show, I will blow your mind. Nobody in the control room's ever even heard of you, too. I don't think it's that you litigious. Strong point. Anyway, Octung Baby, they went to East Berlin. Yes.

And they locked themselves in an apartment building and drove Trabants or whatever the hell they were doing. And they were like, we are not coming out of here until we are affected or feel something. After that point, any time they got together, they were living all over the world, they were having different lives. Any time after that, it's a different age of the band, a different era of the band. They got together in San Trape to write a hit, which is just going to produce something differently. Sometimes it's going to produce a hit. Sometimes it's not. But the arc of bands always goes this way.

So I think maybe the important thing, instead of, like, dinging this album is to be like, it's kind of interesting that we're still even talking about. Obviously, none of our producers are interested in us talking about it. Are many, many, many. We have more producers than you too does.

Well, Jack Knife Lee is adding a nice tone to my voice. It was nice that he was available. I always like it when Ryan Tedder comes in and puts that counting stars melody on your track. You want to drop a top five? Yeah, should we do our own or should we try to come to consensus? I think that our consensus is just take Octung Baby and put it on shuffle and you're fine.

But now we'll do our own. Do our own list. I think we have, I think we both have the same number one. Shouts to Sam Donsky at Dance Remix, who did this in August with a take that was, I thought, so fire. And then I realized. It's very sweet that you're making him sound like Mary Weather Lewis just being like, I'm the first to say top five. But he did a top five U2. And I looked at it.

And at first, the flame from the take scorched my retinas. Sure. And then I was like, oh, no, the truest flame burns the brightest. I think his is very good. I think you and I have both of the same number one. No, I don't think so. Okay, my number one's where the streets have no name. My number one is so cruel.

Just like Donsky. Okay. What's your number two? Ultraviolet, like my way, from Akdung Baby. Mine is stay far away so close. Oh, that's such a good song. Yeah, from Zuropa. Guys, Zuropa was supposed to be a throwaway, right?

It was just like the, we're still on tour and we have extra stuff. But the inspiration was so good. Zach Mack, imagine that. Imagine making one of the greatest albums in rock history than being like, we're just going to churn out 10 more tracks, Johnny Cash feature and a spoken word from our guitarist, and it's going to be good. Imagine.

What's your number three? Bad. Oh. Never bad? A slow burn. Do you like the live version? Do I like the live version? Is it studio or live, do you go?

I have studio, but let me tell you, the feeling of seeing them play bad in 1991 in the open-air veteran stadium, RIP, Philadelphia. That still speaks to me. It speaks to me. I was 14 years old. It speaks to me. You know, a lot of people... Oh, boy. This is going to be a take. Say one. You know, that that's their... That's their big... That's their standard. A lot of people like, whether or without you. Who are these strong men you're talking about? This is... I know that this song is probably

cornier than both of those, but I'm going all I want is you. Wow. Yeah, from Rattle and Hum. Wow. That is a slow down. Yeah. That is, so that's... Tell me about it. That's...

Look at this, look. He's going on camera right now. Are there any middle school hearts? Do you want to apologize for breaking? You know, we kept three feet distance as was the rules of Quaker school dances, but that was a very moving soundtrack to my early romance. I have not praised much about Stranger Things season two, but I thought the the accuracy of the 80s dance at the end was really well done.

Because I was told, I was taught by my peers that. the correct way to dance was the arm's full extension. Like, you were not allowed to bend your elbows. What's your number four? By the way, that's still how I dance. Just so you know. Where the streets have no name. Isn't that the number one?

That was your number one. Oh, that's my number one. Okay. By the way, put on where the streets have no name just to get us hype in the studio. Zach Mack said, isn't this beautiful day? Which kind of, yes. It is a beautiful day. For your generation.

I am going with who's going to ride your wild horses, Temple Bar remix. Talk to me about the temple bar. Just a little bit of like, it sounds a little bit more like New Order. Yeah, it's just, yeah,

it's really, really, really good. What's your number five? The Fly. Like, I just like Octong Baby. A lot.

I'm gonna go with seconds, just wanna throw out an early jam. I think that's from war. Yeah, I will follow on my list because I really like strident.

You two's a great band. First single, yeah. Yeah. What's your favorite YouTube album? Is it Octong? Or is it Joshua? No,

it's Octang Baby. Like, I think Joshua Tree, was important, which has hampered it in the years since. And actually, one of the things that's interesting about the band as an act of positive concern is that every tour they reinvent Bull, the Blue Sky. Oh, yeah. Because that is a very strident song, and then they found ways to deconstruct it and comments on it.

Very big use in the trailer to Peter Berg's The Kingdom. Great. Oh, well, you're a big fan of that. I actually am not mad at that. There is an argument to be made that we will not make now. Maybe we'll make it on my after hours hyper litigious. Here's what Bono was really up to. After Dark, yeah.

Podcast. But their version, like, when I talked about the 80s going to the 90s, it's Joshua Tree to Octung Baby, for me culturally, and I think on the radio and on MTV as well in a lot of ways. Also the level of, like, irony and self-awareness that was, they were obviously very self-aware during the Joshua Tree and Rattle and Hum era, so much so that they made a movie about it. But that almost imploded and it became this kind of ironic performance art on Octung Baby and Zeropa. which didn't age that well for the next five or six years.

Bono walking around with a camcorder in his face being what they showed on screen. Macfisto? Yeah. But for six or seven years, when the 90s were like in full flower, U-2's version of it was like, oh, they're posers. They're dancing around with irony, but they're still charging $40 a ticket or whatever. But everybody was performing. And I feel like in some ways, when they are still trying to make a relevant record when they are in their 70s,

they are the truth of rock and roll. Yeah. You know, and I mean that in all senses. When we talked to Joe Hagan about the Jan Wenter book, which I hope people have been checking out and reading, one of the great things about that book and about his perspective on it was de-romanticizing something

that maybe has gotten a little too stultified and romantic about rock and roll, that for 10 or 15 years there was something pure and incredible, and then the marketers came in and ruined it all. When we see, they always knew. I mean, that has always been part of it. And U-2's ability to be earnest, and then also be just ruthlessly capitalist

makes them a pretty great poster child. They made everybody get their last album for rock and roll. They gave it. Yeah, right, they quote of a way gave it to us. It's like they cannot bear not to be the biggest. And that is a trait that I honestly, I wish more bands had. Just a little bit of housekeeping. So Thursday, we have a special episode

where we're going to be joined by Lady Bird's Lori Metcalf. I think, frankly, future Oscar winner from Lady Bird Laurie MacGow. I'm actually going to give her the Oscar when she does the pot. I think that's terrific. If you haven't seen Lady Bird, I think it might be our consensus movie of the year, so you should check that out. That'll be Thursday. And then we have pretty much end of year stuff.

We've got a year and TV pod coming next week. With our special year and TV guest. Maybe we won't name him, but people know. Well, we could. We won't name him, but people know. Yeah. Is it Bono? It's Pan out.

He's really mad. I love Ozarks, sir! And then we'll be doing, yeah, so year in TV next week. We also will, before holidays. We'll have Megan Abbott back on to talk about Queen Pin, her book, and to close out Mind Hunter, which I'm sure people have closed out by now, but I think that'll be a nice... The kid closed it out. Your boy? Yeah.

Your boy, young Ozarks? Do you think you... I need you to finish Ozark because let me tell you something. It jumps up a notch. I just want to talk about life lessons. Like, do you feel now you could successfully run a summertime lake-based boat business? Like, could you do that? Do you feel like you've learned enough about the blue catlap?

No, I would be too scared about getting electrocuted. Great point. Could you successfully launder money for not the cartel? But for Issaim Morales, personally. Like, if Zach Mack was like, launder this 20 bucks, I could do it. Launder this 20 bucks so I can buy a clean... I need to buy more tea. I need to buy a clean copy.

The tea guys are really nervous about where my money's coming from. He's like, I need to buy a clean copy of the unforgettable fire. Because you guys have blown my mind about 80s. I got to check these you two guys out. Yeah. I'm going out of Sam Goody and buy a cassette. All right, until next time, I'm Chris Ryan. How happy did I make you today, really?

Pretty jazzed. You're pretty excited. All right. This is what we do. We bring joy to people's lives. Goodbye, Moranskis. You did it. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Credible.com.

Credible.com is an online marketplace for student loan refinancing. Using Credible.com's simple platform, it takes less than two minutes to find out if you're overpaying on your student loans. And you could save thousands by refinancing. All you have to do is visit credible.com slash watch, answer a few questions. and right away, you'll get real rates, not ranges of rates, from multiple lenders. Checking your rates will not affect your credit score, so you really have nothing to lose. The average user who refinances through Credible.com saves almost $19,000 over the life of their loan,

and for a limited time, watch listeners will get $200 welcome bonus when refinancing through Credible.com slash watch. That's credible.com slash watch. Today's episode of The Watch was also brought to you by Mack Weldon with a smart design premium fabrics and a simple shopping experience, Mac Weldon underwear is better than anything you're currently wearing. In addition to looking and feeling great, all Mac Weldon products are crafted with natural fibers that have built-in performance capabilities,

so they work hard too. They even have a line of silver underwear and shirts that are naturally antimicrobial, which means they eliminate odor. All that, and they are shipped right to your door if you don't like your first pair. You can keep it, and they will still refund you. No questions asked.

Mac Weldon is actually just phenomenal underwear, guys. and you, if you're listening to this podcast, get new underwear. I don't, just, you treat yourself, treat someone in your life, go to macweldon.com, because when you go there and you use promo code watch, you're going to get 20% off your purchase. So I don't really know what else I can do to sell you this underwear. Macwolden.com, 20% off your first purchase, promo code watch.