The Watch - Watching History on Cable News, Plus a Pop Culture Grab Bag

Episode Date: January 8, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about what it was like watching the last 48 hours unfold on cable news and whether or not this is the right medium for this moment (1:34). Then, they get into a grab bag of pop culture topics, including the news that ‘Loki’ executive producer Michael Waldron is being tapped to write a ‘Star Wars’ movie (22:51), The Watch Facebook group’s top 10 TV shows of 2020 (37:30), and Hayao Miyazaki films (44:33). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ranger.com. And joining me on the other line, as always, it's Andy Greenwald. Hey, buddy. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great. Today, kind of a weird, weird grab bag of an episode, obviously, with so much happening in the world, it's hard to concentrate on TV and pop culture. But Andy and I will talk a little bit about both all of it happening on watch coming up next. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription

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flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

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I don't know about you, but I watched probably like 13 hours of television yesterday cumulatively. Unbelievable. Worst West Wing season ever. But none of it, obviously, TV that we would usually talk about on this program. We're not really a news program. We're not really a current events program. All jokes aside.

But it's sort of strange because I think even a day like yesterday winds up kind of just sucking up everything around it. It's just like a vacuum and you can't really escape it. So it would be weird. We're not acknowledging it in so much as like we're like, obviously, like, we're appalled at what happened and, like, you know, like everything that you would expect us to say, but it does sort of throw a wrench in the works of doing like a fun-loving pop culture podcast. Yeah, I would say that I, of all the things I expected to be doing yesterday,

doom scrolling and insurrection against the United States of America while observing my younger daughter on a otherwise abandoned COVID-unfriendly playground near a freeway. I didn't have that in life bingo. That's a real like Fury Road portrait. It kind of was. And like, you know, because playgrounds are open here, thankfully, but, you know, because of the complete and total catastrophic failure of every aspect of this country in response to the pandemic, both federal and local, the parks are, you know, the parks are basically where people are just living. And people have to live somewhere. and no one's taking care of them, I get it.

But this particular park, which has like a freeway on one side, and then like three trailers with a combination of don't tread on me, but anti-communist and anti-Nazi flags hanging. It's really thrown on the other side. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, this is a very difficult thing to parse today, sir. You know what I mean? Like, you might want to get your messaging a little bit straighter.

Did you just knock on the door and be like, can I show you something on Twitter? Can you just bring something down for me? here. Like, I, exactly. I don't want to alarm you, sir, but Dave Wasserman spoke to, uh, anyway. No, it was a nightmare. No, I mean, because like, so this is the deal. Like, you spend your, you know, usually what happens is Andy and I kind of like have a text message thread where we're deciding what we're going to watch. We're deciding what we're going to talk about. And then naturally some stuff will come up on deadline or whatever, you know, the trades that will spark our interest and spark a conversation between the two of us, but I would say that it's no, I'm not, it's not an understatement to say

that I was essentially watching TV from Tuesday at about 3 o'clock until last night at about 1230, flipping between news channels, looking at Twitter, going to C-SPAN even. I got a note for, for my guys over at C-SPAN, okay? You don't have to, I'm not expecting it to look like Carrie Fukunaga is on the, is on the lenses, but we could go for a couple more angles, right? Like, can we afford that as a nation, as a society? Can I get a couple reaction shots going? Do you like a little camera movement? No, but that's like it's just a static.

It's a shot at the dais and then there's like a shot at the two sides. And I want to get a little bit of handheld going in there. Chris, I got to be straight with you. I think the guys at C-SPAN who are big Paul Greengrass fans wisely took the day off yesterday. I mean, I appreciate your love of the. medium. But you want guys, you want Peter Berg on the rotunda floor shooting Friday Night Light Season 3? Like, I'm okay with just like flip the switch camera on, camera off. You know what I mean? Just put a nanny cam behind Roy Thune and just call it a day. Roy Thune? Is that like

your, it's John Thune, but is Roy Thune like, that's like your amalgamation Republican Senator is calling him Roy Thune? Yeah, it literally could be. Yeah, he's from the great state of South Kansas. I have a lot of respect for the flyover country. No, I guess my question for you, because I don't know if this will come as a surprise or not as a surprise, I have definitely become someone who, despite my previous career, my current career, even my podcasting career, I do not turn on the television very often. I do not go to the television in times of news, basically.

And I'll say that the transition from Tuesday night to Wednesday, in addition to being from like just joy and delight to horror, I'm curious about the role television played in this because I did, you know, for all sorts of unrelated to this conversation reasons, like I was kind of inoculating myself from the Georgia runoffs. I did not get too high, did not get too low. I appreciated the emails from our friend John Ossoff, but I can't say I responded to many of them. I was even, Amy McGie was still jumping in the inbox, just encouraging me to participate. I feel like Amy McGee needs to take a seat. You know what I mean? Like take a very, very expensive seat because she could afford it. So my approach to was very different from past elections, which you know, I have not handled super

well. No, I was riding shotgun with you on the presidential election night in tech. was eye-opening. In the scheme of Fury Road analogies, I was the blood bag that night. But this night, you know, I was just kind of taking it easy, having dinner with the family,

glancing at Dave Wasserman. And Dave Wasserman was like, this is pretty much a rap. Like, everything's great. And I was like, okay, fantastic. Our other friend, Matt, who is a devoted MSNBC watcher,

was texting me like, oh shit, Purdue's closing. He was following a different drama than I was. And when I finally did put the kids to bed, turned on the TV to see what was up, the disconnect between a sort of calm, methodical, numbers-based reality. And the made-for-television,

Steve Kornacki is sweating through his third Oxford version of it, was really striking. That made me feel like the television, maybe this television thing has gone a little far. Like, you know, it made me feel, like I as others and more savier critics and and angrier critics have been like have weighed in against television news. I don't need to join that fray. But then you get a day like yesterday, which for for good or ill, I guess you kind of have to be watching, right? These are very different,

these are very different services that the television is provided. I think we're at a little bit of an obvious crossroads in terms of I'm not sure that's so sure there's like a great way to bear witness to important events anymore because the, The thing that I was noticing yesterday when I was, you know, manically refreshing Twitter was the achronological, like, nonlinear way in which it was happening. Because if you give your central timeline, which for me is largely NBA and movie Twitter,

and then I would go to different journalists, some of whom were on the scenes. By the way, Woj was right. Woj was on this before anyone, let alone Shams. You know what I mean? Yeah. He knew who Holly was. But I was finding it difficult.

to kind of organize kind of like the actual who, when, where, why, and most importantly, when, like how, and what order things were sort of happening. So then I kind of went to television after a little while. I think after they had sort of, I mean, to some extent, they had retaken the Capitol, which is an insane thing that I have to say in 2021. Well, if you're not on a rewatchables about a Gerard Butler movie. That's right. But I, uh, I fired up, cable news and, you know, I don't know about you. O-A-N Newsmax? What's your go-to? No, I was flipping between CNN and MSNVC.

But even so, I still ended the day with dental implants and refinancing my home four times. And by the way, I don't own a home. I just kept refinancing it. Can I also add? The ads that they have on those things where it's like, this is the most important thing that's happened in 20 years. Yes. And then it's like, here. is a guy in Fresno who will give you

plastic teeth is the commercial. Chris, I used to watch a lot of Food Network and cooking channel and I would be enjoying some like Canadian show about a guy named, I was like, I feel like some guy named Rocco was his name and he's just like, this is my Italy.

You know, it was filmed in like 2004 and it was like not HD. And I was loving it. And then it would cut to commercial and it would just be like Jeopardy font white letters on the screen being like, do you need a new catheter? We have catheters.

Didn't say if they were new or used. But I was like, okay, so this is my demographic. And I thought that was as gnarly as it would get. But then I was watching MSNBC the other night, as I was saying, with the Georgia runoffs. And they just kept running an ad for medication that will stop your heart stopping. Okay.

It was medication you can take against chronic heart failure. Was it heart stop stop? Was that what it's called? Listen, you're the branding consultant. You're the expert. Just throwing things against the wall here. The images were of hail and hearty middle-aged men. Yeah.

Not like us. Like we're talking the silverest of silver foxes. Right. Deep sea diving. Which I wouldn't do with a perfectly healthy ticker, but you do you. And then it says the list of, you know, if you have high blood pressure, maybe you shouldn't be taking heart stop stops. if you have a heart problems,

do not take heart stop, stop. And then it said, and I'm paraphrasing, in rare and certain cases, this medication may cause a potentially fatal rash to emerge on your perineum. And then in letters on the screen, it said your perinium is located between your anus and your genitals.

And at this point, I'm just running the numbers. I've got a lost thread here. When did you see this advertisement? Right before they NBC declared Reverend Rafael Warnock the winner of the center primary. Back when you were watching Rocco's trip to Italy. Chris, this is a podcast about this moment right now, this American moment. And it did make me wonder, how bad would my heart failure have to be to run the risk of a fatal fungal infection in the most private area of the human body?

I couldn't help but wonder. right? Yeah. You know what I mean? If it was like male pattern baldness medication, like, okay, you know, maybe you don't need to take the pills. But if it's a pill that will stop your heart stopping. Yeah.

Right. Do you sacrifice? Rashes. The taint. I'm just asking. Okay. I got a little off base. That's definitely the big question.

I think everybody is asking coming out of yesterday. Speaking of the taint, senators, Cruz, Holly, and please go on. No. You know, so like I was up late. I figured it was one of those things that was so funny because I don't know if you're like this, but I often have a hard time hitting the eject button on things because I have decided that the amount that I have invested into something needs to be repaid in somewhere. So you're great in Vegas.

That's why you don't own a home, Chris. That's why you keep refinancing. But at a certain point at like 9.30 or something like that. Right. my wife and I were like, you know, maybe we should just go watch something else or just like go read or turn this off. And I'm sure we'll be alerted if something happens. But I was like, I can't, I can't let go. Because they were doing a really good job being like any minute now, Nancy Pelosi will do this. And then Mike Pence will do this. And then this will happen. And it's, it kind of gets into the, into what you're talking about with like cable news owning a moment and making it into television rather than making it into documentation. If you watch, And no disrespect to the Denisville and Nouves of C-SPAN, who obviously were sheltering in place and could not do boom shots or anything. But if you just watch C-SPAN and you watch all these knuckleheads give their speeches,

you know, like, you're just kind of like, okay, I'm going through the process of what our version of democracy is supposed to be. But if you were watching MSNBC, at a certain point, I think after like, you know, Ben Sass talked, they were just like, we're just going to have talking heads talking over the talking heads. and we're just going to try and like kind of continue to develop like these narratives while we're waiting for some sort of finality. Like there was an impatience with the process that I thought was really interesting that I am, I personally like definitely fell victim to because I would go to C-SPAN and I'd be like, I don't really want to watch this fucking guy from Pennsylvania talk. So I would go back and watch Ali Vleshy be like, this was a coup and this is like this. And it was like you

get sucked into the sort of real-time Monday morning quarterbacking of something rather than watching like something play out? Well, I think the two really significant terms you just used are impatience with the process and narrative. And I think one of the, this might be glib and this might be sort of stitched together on the fly. But I think that one of the major problems of our era and clearly, clearly for the world is the fact that everything has to be narrative. And we are incredibly impatient as a people. And I'm not saying that's because of the rise of prestige television or whatever. I'm not trying to draw some bullshit equivalency here.

But, you know, investing time in like a sporting event, it's a contained thing where the a are the outcome is uncertain. And so that feels, you know, exciting. The potential collapse of American democracy, outcome also uncertain, right? But the desire to latch on to narrative that this was all the way this, this is who is, this is who is to blame, this is the only response. This is what's going to happen next is really just, you know, human beings casting out against the darkness of uncertainty and desperate to have some path. And that's not going to work. You know what I mean?

Like, we have to be mindful of what we can control and what we can't control and also over the larger, like, macro scope of things. And buried in here also is just this, the thing that I'm really struggling with today. And I think that, um, Ezra Klein late of, late of Vox, surprisingly not, not of substack. He made, he's the guy that went back to old media, which I respect, had his first column the New York Times, it was basically like, uh, everyone who did this yesterday was lied to.

And we, at some point in the last four years, and I think there were many, many smart people on the parapets basically saying, like words do matter. Reality is reality. You know, you can't just brush this under the rug.

But lying constantly to people has consequences. And, you know, and I'm not just, everyone is complicit in this to some degree because in order to survive the last four years. And I should say that as someone whose life was never in danger, you know what I mean? Like could not be coming from a more fortunate or privileged or secure place, but even just mentally to engage with things in order to do a podcast with you about, you know, chicken marinades or whatever. I forget what else we talk about.

I have to compartmentalize. Yeah. And be like when he says, I actually. one in a landslide, I can't, I can't think about that. I can't think about the fact that he is saying something so wildly, um, disrespectfully,

uh, you know, I'm trying to come up with an, uh, he's lying. Yeah, he's just lying. He's lying to millions of people.

Fundamentally untrue. And people believe it. Yeah. And so it's a, it's a strange place to be, to be in this completely untethered world where we all kind of still want gatekeepers and narrative and hands. and hand-holding, and yet we've given all that away.

Yeah, and I think there's also like a feeling that in our own lifetimes, especially over the last five years. But I think just, you know, in the advent of the internet and all that, like we have witnessed the death of those, the idea of being able to like stand up and be counted. Like that was the thing that struck me yesterday watching the Senate speeches is like all these guys, both Republicans and Democrats, doing these really ornate

Aaron Sorkin imitations, you know, talking about Thomas Payne and things that happened in the 18th century or 19th century. And, like, I'm just sitting there and just being like, do you guys think this makes a fucking difference to anybody hearing this? Like, do you think that anybody is, like, deeply moved by, like, your contextualization of this?

Like, there's something about, like, you can't, nobody is buying, have you no decency, sir, anymore. You know, like that moment of like, well, he's lost Walt Walter Cronkite. That was something I really, really felt yesterday. It was like, none of this shit matters. Like, no, these people who did this

are fully convinced either for lulls or because they're literally fucking believed that like the country is run by satanic pedophiles that this was what they should do. And they're fucking nuts. You know what I mean? But, but, I mean, Ted Cruz and Josh Hawkins.

who went to Ivy League schools know what they're doing. And I think one of the things that will be one of the more interesting reckonings is they never actually wanted to go near those people that tried to run them down in the rotunda yesterday. They never want to talk to them. They don't believe what they're telling those people. They want to use them and, you know, fundraise off of them and get attention and votes and power off of them. And then they came crashing through the front fucking door. You know, the best, this might seem trite. But if the, this is fine dog was the meme of this era, the me reaping, me sewing tweet should just go into Smithsonian for the, and for people who aren't familiar with it, it's the me reaping.

Fuck, yeah. Ha ha. this is great. Me sewing. What the fuck? This sucks. Right. That's it. That's where we're at. And it's just so, this sucks. Yeah. I wish I had some like words of wisdom. You know, my brain feels pretty hollowed out. I think that especially since early November, you feel like, I don't know about you, but I just feel like I've been hooked up to a push strip of, of social media and news media and reading about this stuff. And, you know, I'm very hopeful that that this is the end of something and not the beginning of something. I don't know what to think

anymore in that regard. But like you said, like it's a human, we have a human desire to compartmentalize to not have this like take over our entire minds and all of our lives. And I guess what we can do in the second half of this podcast is chat about some random other stuff. We have some Star Wars news. You and I wanted to like kind of bounce a couple of ideas. And we have our, we have our Facebook groups top 10 of 2020 that we wanted to discuss. Yeah.

I mean, I guess and I look forward to getting into that stuff just to, to lighten our minds. And I'm sure lighten the minds of our listeners too. But if there's any kernel of positivity that I'm trying to draw from, it is like, you know, we've all just been gaslit and lied to collectively for four years or more that the sky isn't falling that everything's fine the stock market is whatever

he's an ordinary Republican the institutions will hold people can constrain him you know and there are large swaths of the country for whom that has never been true you know and if anything

would yesterday seem to represent and it's pathetic that it took this long and that it comes so close to the end and I really like that was it John Lovett from crooked media who tweeted like resigning now is like quitting the bank job in the last half hour of heist you're not actually against bank robbery you just don't like that it went south yeah but it did seem to be a moment when suddenly everyone realized that the room is on fire and though you are a dog and that coffee tasted pretty good it was not fine right you know and

I hope that we can take that and not just pretend not just memory hold this as some free occurrence, you know? Yeah. It's, it's something that no, no listeners. I was, I was having a hard time with that yesterday, man. Like, I was having a hard time with, like, seeing what you saw earlier in the day and then, you know, admirably getting back to work, but, like, having Congress just be like, you know, the work goes on, here we go. Like, we're just going to kind of push through. Like, I don't know. I just something felt cognitively dissonant about that yesterday. Was it also the fact that you can't leave your home because 4,000 Americans died of a virus that None of those people are talking about.

Yeah. So here we are. All right. We're going to take a quick break in when we come back. We will talk about some pop culture stuff. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. So you're saying with Hilton Honors, I can use points for a free night's day anywhere? Anywhere. What about fancy places like the canopy in Paris? Yeah. Hilton Honors, baby. Or relaxing sanctuaries like the Conrad in Toulomb?

Hilton Honors, baby. What about the five-star Waldorf Astoria in the Maldives? Are you going to do this for all 9,000 properties? When you want points that can take you anywhere anytime, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Book your spring break now. All right, ma'am, we're back. So the first half of the show is obviously us sort of trying to sort through our thoughts

about everything that was happening in the country over the last 24 or 48 hours. We still want to be, we also want to provide a little bit of a distraction for people if they want that. so I guess we can just chat about some pop culture stuff. I don't think we can fully divorce it from the context of where our heads are at. And to that end, I will say that the only pop culture I watched other than the news yesterday was the episode of Friends where Chandler and Joey find free porn. I don't, can I be honest with you? Like, we should, you know, it's time to just finally like be real in this podcast.

I don't remember a single episode of Friends. Really? Maybe the one where they swapped apartments. Yes. sort of in my mind. They have like, there's like a bet and then they like swap apartments

and it's like a whole season. And when Monica and Chandler in bed together. Sorry, spoilers. I remember that. Because that was a big moment. I don't remember anything else.

Did you watch friends a lot? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh yeah. I find that I, maybe not the later seasons. Right.

Well, in any case, I would just say that like that was the, the episode of Friends that was like next in the HBO Max Q was that one. And it was definitely like, it was definitely like a relief to watch anything else than then uh you know chris hayes and

rachel mattow but it was it was definitely not about what what the day was about can you imagine like you know this would be if we were still maybe should do that have someone do this for the ringer but like watch your continued watching cue on hbomax it would be the most schizophrenic experience like up next episode six of i may destroy you episode two of chernoble episode two of chernoble episode episode 170 fucking seven of the Big Bang theory. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, that is a very strange assortment.

I wonder what would happen if you were able to feed all of your streaming services into some sort of randomizer, but only the shows that you're actually, like, watching. So that not like you would have to, like, you would randomly get some, like, cartel and kind of docudrama or something. You would be thrilled. I would be fine with that.

But, like, I wonder if there would be, like, an app to, like, just basically spit that out where it would be like, here's a friend's episode. here's an episode of Bridgetton, here's an episode of the Wilds, here's what you are watching these days, but if you don't want to choose, this thing, we'll just, like, do it.

I mean, I guess you could just, like, press the button. I don't know why you're giving this away for free. I feel like Jeffrey Katzenberg just gave us money. I mean, like, Netflix has done randomizer tech before, I think, on their service. Like, I think you can do that. Netflix has done randomizer tech on their series orders as well.

So I feel like that's baked in. Yeah, Apple, the Apple TV app could do that, Because if you use the Apple TV to watch shows or, like, as your hub, you click on that. It's like, here are the things you've been watching. Yeah, but you know what I do is whenever it's like Apple TV wants, like, to access your, you're like, no? Yeah, I always do. I don't know why.

Do you feel like momentarily powerful? Yeah, I'm just like, no way. Do you feel like Glenn Greenwald? In that moment? Yeah. Are you sticking it to big media? Well, there was like two weeks there when I think the EU passed whatever long. about like cookies management

where it was just like every website you would go to and ask you like these 37 questions about whether or not you want your... And I was like very diligent about that for like 10 days. It was the EU, so there was actually biscuit management. Right, that's right.

That's right. But I was pretty diligent about it for a little while. And then I was like, you know what? Life's too short. I'm just going to say accept all cookies. Why? Just accept all?

By the way, I feel like that is... While I'm looking at this Cayman Island sports gambling site. That's a really good motto for 2020. 2020, except all cookies. That's how I wind up starring in this sequel to the laundromat. You understand that I'm going to go on Instagram later today, and all the ads are going to be for congestive heart failure medication. Definitely.

So there's two things we wanted to do. One is that you wanted to try and convince me to get into something that you're into, right? Yeah. And then I also thought for S's and Gs, we could talk about the little bit of Star Wars news that came out today, quite a skept. So why don't we do the Star Wars stuff first? I just wanted to mention this because every once in a while in Hollywood, you just see somebody really just pops and they wind up becoming such a hot property.

And the person who's like kind of like the taste de jure now seems to be this guy Michael Waldron, who I thought we should talk about briefly. So this is a guy, a dude who is show running Loki for Marvel and the gods up at Disney pluse. And he was just tapped to write. Kevin Feige's Star Wars movie, which had gone relatively unremarked upon

during the Star Wars announcements that we covered a couple of weeks ago. I think the only feature that was talked about, well, it was Tycho Waititi's feature was in development and that Patty Jenkins was going to be directing essentially a fighter pilot movie called Rangers.

Is it a movie where fighter pilots fly from Washington, D.C. to Cairo without refueling? She's directing a movie called Rogue Squadron, which dollars to donuts is going to have like a wedge Wedge Antilles cameo but we had really heard about the Fagy thing

and um we heard it was announced but we didn't know what it was. Nobody had said anything since then about like whether this was a signal that he was going to have

a bigger role at Lucasfilm and whether or not he would start overseeing maybe the feature film development of that arm of place or whether he would have any larger role and for and also just like what's his what's the story you what's to tell you know is is he going to do

a post-sequel story? Is he going to do another canon anthology story? It's really, it is really noteworthy. I mean, in the scheme of things, it's not normal, even in this new abnormal

of how you make franchise movie making to just gift a film to a producer. You know what I mean? Like generally, it's all under the auspices of the person running it, whether it's Faggy with Marvel or Kathy Kennedy with Star Wars.

And, you know, writer producers, director producers, sure. But like a producer is odd. And so the assumption that I think we shared when we casually talked about this was that was this Alan Horn or was this Bob Iger, Bob Chappek being like, we're not really sure about how this is going. So we're going to just skim a little bit off the top and give it to our most successful moneymaker potentially with the implication buried in there that they might just give this all to him too. Sure. right and put him in over Kathy Kennedy.

The idea that he just might want to tell a little story, you know, about a galactic something or other didn't really figure into it. He's so good at world building and he makes very different types of movies within the Marvel umbrella that the idea that he just might have a passion project about a young Padawan named Kevin. I don't know. Is Kevin the guy at the end of the Ryan Johnson movie with the broom? Honestly, I was what I was thinking.

Yeah. It was. But it was like Game of Thrones, Kevin, remember, where they ran out? of names. Oh, yeah, Kevin. Or it's like, Kavanaugh. It's Kevin. But Michael Waldron, so he is writing the Dr.

Strange sequel that I think is shooting the Sam Ramey movie that is due out late this year. And I think will be a pretty important movie in terms of whatever this next phase of features is. Because it's just based on the sort of subtitle of it in the multiverse of madness. And guys, Rachel McAdams is in it. Remember when that was a headline? like relax fellas do you think brats back for this well we haven't even talked about that

how do you think how do you think peng born feels about the red hot New York Knicks I think he feels mixed about it because first of all he's waited years to have a coach like Tibbs you know what I mean

and to see them just like play with a hard nose defense first coach yeah and to like play like it matters and to respect the shield in the middle of the garden floor all of that matters to him on the downside Dolan still owns the team

and at the end of the first Dr. Strange film, his ability to walk was taken away by Mordo or Mordoo. I don't even remember anymore. So I would say, is Pangorne Glass half full kind of guy? I'd like to think so. Yeah. I mean, for him, do you think he looks at Julius Randall? He's like, great. He's playing for a contract. It's not going to be with us. So what's the point? Or is he like, this guy's an all-star. We have an all-star New York Nick now. I think that he feels like the Randall thing is fleeting, but I think that his spirits raised when Taj Gibson resign, because I think that he considers himself in his, in his

Rucker prime, a Taj Gibson-like force. Gotcha. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, just a little bit of background on Waldron. So obviously, he's writing that Dr. Doom sequel, a Dr. Strange sequel. And he has an overall deal at Disney, which this Star Wars movie appears to be a part of. And it was mentioned in this deadline piece that announced this deal that he is already, or

that he is at least tapped to continue to be this showrunner on Loki season two, which I thought was an interesting aside just because one of the things I'm curious about with Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Hawkeye, Miss Marvel, Loki, even Wanda Vision is, to what extent they are planning on multiple seasons?

Because obviously, like, a lot of these people were kind of in line for pretty significant... I mean, I just think, like, when you think about, like, Sebastian Stan Anthony Mackey. I'm sure when they were making those movies, those Captain America movies, they were probably like,

and then maybe we make our own movies, right? Like, we're going to keep doing this. And now we're talking about season two of Loki and I would imagine multiple seasons of these other Marvel shows. Here's what I would say. And if I were Kevin Feige, here's what I would do.

Retire to an island with all my money. But in this particular circumstance, what I would do is confirm nothing and deny nothing. Like this is the guy who invented the modern star studio contracts slash relationship. The rotating door of romance and fun that is Marvel Studios in Atlanta, I am sure is part of the pitch for these TV series. And what that means is things we've discussed in the past. Like, it's not as big a time commitment as you think. think you can show up, you can do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and you're suddenly

you're in three shows in a movie and you're on your way. I also think that it probably means that there was some kind of very actor-friendly contract for the TVverse. You know, it's not a movie thing, which was like, you know, for Chris Evans, who was a seven movie deal, but some of those movies were small appearances or whatever. It's probably something more innovative and interesting that says, you're going to be doing X number of projects for us, and we have an option and you have an option. And some of these series absolutely are being designed to be launching pads

for future movies. Like maybe there won't be another Falcon Winter Soldier season right away because they're going to be the new Avengers or whatever. Who knows? We don't know what it's going to be. But I also imagine there are switches, you know, like optionalities in all these deals that if

something pops, they could do another one. I mean, I just think that they should not be yoking themselves to this expectation that there's going to be a season of Loki every year for the next five years, and I'm sure Tom Hiddleston doesn't want that either. Could there be five seasons total, sprinkled in between movies

and the night manager, part D and part twas? Yeah, sure. I don't know. I don't know what else Hidelson's gotten his dance card. But I think that flexibility makes a lot of sense. Flip side of that, Ms. Marvel and Moon Night, stuff like that, those feel like TV shows to me.

So you think Oscar Isaac is going to make like three seasons of Moon Night? Yeah. I do. Took me a second. But yeah, I do. I'm not going to hold you to that. Don't worry about it.

Well, have we ever gone broke overestimating Oscar Isaac's career goals? You know what I mean? Yeah, that's right. But the Waldron thing is cool. I don't know him at all. We've never encountered him. We don't know anything about what he's like.

He's got a cool mustache in his press photo. But it is interesting. He's got a wrestling show coming on stars called heels. He's got a wrestling show on heels, which is how he first came on my radar. And that was a long time in development. and finally made it to production on stars and is finally coming out. But while in the time it took for him

to be like a guy hustling his wrestling show, he just tapped this other vein. And as you said, is now like the golden child Disney. It's cool. It's interesting. Yeah. So we'll keep an eye on that story just because I think it will explain a lot about where these things are going. And I'm also like very curious to know about the,

in this moment of nobody can do anything wrong, the degree to which Marvel and Lucasfilm work together, work in conjunction, whether or not they're keeping things off of each other's corners, how talent gets divided up, and also how stuff gets rolled out. Like, I'm very curious, you know, they did that entire announcement in one day, obviously, we did the Star Wars shows first, and then we talked about the Marvel show second. At some point, given the volume that they're talking about, I would imagine there will be points when on Disney Plus you'll have a Star Wars and a Marvel show on at the same time.

One other thing that I would say, one other, like an implication you could take from the Waldron doing a Star Wars movie thing. Other than the Patty Jenkins movie, it does seem like the big lesson from the last five years of Star Wars hits and misses in terms of movies is all caps,

we are funny now. Tyca and Michael Waldron, I'm sure can write all kinds of genres, but if the Loki trailers any guy, you and I hope it is. Comic caper with a little bit of like psychedelia added in for good measure. Yeah, and that's noteworthy. And it's particularly noteworthy when you compare it to,

you know, all the criticism we had for Wonder Woman, for example, last week. What else did you want to talk about? Oh, we should just, as a shout out to our loyal Facebookers, none of whom have had their posting privileges locked yet today by Mark Zuckerberg, who suddenly woke up. They posted their top 10, right? They did a survey.

I feel like we should shout them out and give their top 10 a moment in the sun. So let's call this what it is, which is the last time we're going to talk about 2020 shows in a real way. Because, you know, I think what happens in January is that we still wind up, like, chatting about 2020 shows. And then it's almost like their shows kind of like start to lose their meaning. But I really did love our Facebook groups list. And I wanted to give them a shout out.

This is, I think, the second or third year in a row that they've done their own voting on their list. And it's always interesting to see the sort of overlap with you and me and Kaya and Sam that they have and then also some places where they deviate. I'll do their top 10. I'll just list it from 10 to 1. They had the boys season 2 at number 10, the Crown season 4 at number 9, Dave at number 8, what we do in the shadows at number 7. normal people at six. I may destroy you at five. The Mandalorian at four.

The Queen's Gambit at three. Ted Lassau at two, which is very unbrand for our group. And also... Speaking about leaders who lie to their followers. Yes. And then Better Call Saul season five

was the number one show. So they agreed with your boys. You are... It's kind of nice that... Our listeners... This is a very watch-friendly list. Yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's a bunch of stuff in the second tent that I thought I would mention that either we didn't talk about a ton or I'm just sort of glad to see on there,

but like wish we had chatted about more. So, um, I did recaps of dark or we, we talked about dark season three, but dark that came in 21st. Um, the great, which you've mentioned a bunch of, 21st or 11? Dark season three came in 21st. What, what came between 11 and 20? Didn't you just name 10? I can just name them. Yeah, Shits Creek came in 11th. Last Dance came in 12th. Good Place came in 13th. I see.

High Fidelity, Zero Zero, Zero, Zero. Industry, how-to with John Wilson. Devs, the Great Ozark. That's the top 20 there. And then the next batch was Dark, Top Chef, BoJack, Survivor, Lovecraft Country. Mythic Quest, which is a show that I enjoyed quite a bit, but we didn't get a chance to talk about too much. Gangs of London, which many people have been hitting me up on social media, being like, what did you do? Why didn't you put this in your top?

time. Yeah, and a bunch of other, Big Mouth, Perry Mason, my brilliant friend, Penn 15, never have I ever. Yeah, so shout out to our Facebook group. Shout out to their voting. And it's just really interesting. It's cool to see what these consensus shows are

and then what the random ones are that people have thrown in their, like Zoe's Infinite Playlist that we, I don't think I've seen yet, honestly, made in the top 40 here. It's also interesting to me to see shows that And it makes sense, I think. Shows that rank highly on a collective list like that are shows that maybe didn't appear on our list but got covered on the podcast like the boys, for example. The show we both like a lot, but we also love to have in our lives because it is a big, flashy, thought-provoking, enjoyable popcorn program, right?

And it makes for a great conversation and we can have guests on about it. And it's just a really good show to have as a podcast. it fell outside of my personal top 10 and I think yours as well. And I think that's sort of what makes sense why it ranks a little higher for them. And, you know, what we do in the shadows, for example, high on my list. But honestly, other than maybe getting a chance to have some of those people on our show in the next year when season three comes on, I don't know how we talk about it. I was going to be like, when when Nick Kroll put the hat made out of a witch's anus back on his head, that was funny. You know, am I going to have to engage with Dave?

Is that what this means? Dave's funny. Dave is funny. I think you would enjoy it. But you know what? The thing with you, I can never tell. You know, like you also,

I think, I think the wrap on you is that ever since Andy started making TV, he's softened because he understands how hard it is and like everything

that goes into it. And like, you got to shout out to the person who makes sure that like, you know, that Andy has an umbrella protecting him from the sun,

you know? Locations department. Very important to be nice to them, yeah. But you still come with the knives out sometimes, man. Like, I'll just be like, oh, did you see this? What did you think? It was shit. So.

To be fair, you're talking, there was a movie Chris recently suggested to me. Yes. And I was thrilled to learn about its existence. Yes. It seemed right up our alley. And I remain thrilled that it exists because one of the great things about being a cinephile of longstanding like myself is there's always more to discover. The fact that you're now identifying as this is just like, I don't know what to do with this information.

You being like, I am a letterbox guy now is really tough for me. I have long champions, the motion picture industry. Yeah. You know, like Pauline Kale, I lost it at the movies, Chris. But the point being, Chris suggested something to me. And I struggled because immediately, because Chris is my dear friend, my wife and I fired it up that night. And we thought it was... Are you going to say what it is?

We thought it was pretty bad. But I was happy it existed. But then I struggled for 24 hours to let you know about this. Because you matter to me so much. Your thoughts, you know, just the fact that you found something lovely in the world and brought it to me. But I also, Chris, unlike the insurrectionist senators in the United States Senate, I won't lie to you. No, you don't. You know?

You don't. So it's not like you were like, watch this. and I was like, fuck you, this is garbage. No. I just thought it was, but I think that I,

you don't have, here's what you don't have. And I don't know whether you need to develop this, this gear or not. But you do not have a, it was pretty good. No.

You are a very, I either love something or I hate something. And I don't often find you sticking with anything that's like, that you don't love for the most part,

unless I make you do it. But I, it's rare that you will be like, that had a lot to like, even if it didn't ultimately work. I think my softest, softest praise is admirable. I've been breaking that out a lot recently. So if you want to scroll through the archives, maybe you'll have a little more insight. But Chris, I was employed as a critic for many years, not just TV, but before that.

And the medium take genuinely is the enemy. and which isn't to say that I would, you know, nudge the needle one way or the other, but I think that's one of the reasons why I took to it because, and one of the reasons why I very happily stood down too, because there is something in me, as you know, that not only doesn't like something, like it makes me question the value of human life on Earth and makes me want to burn it all down. So sometimes I have to take a breath. This wasn't that. Let's do our last segment, which is, I'm going to let you, you drive. this one. Okay. So trying to think of something to talk about in the podcast today that might be

uplifting in a, what's the opposite of uplift? Down. Depressing. Yeah. Oh, because it presses down. Yeah. Thanks. Good. Good stuff. See, this is why we need each other in our lives. And I was thinking about what has brought me and my family some joy and yet is something that is generally not able to be brought here to this podcast. And that is the films of the great Japanese animator, Hayao Miyazaki, and the works of his studio, Studio Chibli, which I just finally learned how to pronounce, and I'd love to talk to you about that as well. And how were you pronouncing it? Well, so, as you know, Chris, the word comes from Libyan Arabic. I mean, duh, obviously. And was the name of an Italian airplane. And Miyazaki is a big fan of air travel.

In Italian and in Libyan Arabic, and again, it's insulting for me to tell you this to your face because you know this, but I assume maybe our listeners don't, it's pronounced Ghibli, the hard Ghi. This is the GIFGIF thing all over again. But when it is translated into Japanese and spelled out in Katakana lettering, it's a little bit more like gibri. So I'm torn because, you know, I am, I swear by my fidelity. to Libby and Arabic, just as a spoken language.

So I want to say, Ghibli, are we losing people in this segment yet? I just can't tell if you're vamping because you're trying to decide how you're going to pitch this to me. No, no. Here's my take. Okay, so these are, I'm not, I haven't been on the front lines

of the anime revolution, right? I had not actually seen any of these movies. I'd heard how they were adored and beloved and brilliant and Pixar modeled everything they did on the works of the Great Master Miyazaki. I didn't see any of them until I had kids and I also wanted to stop showing them garbage. So I sought out my neighbor Totoro,

which is one of his earliest movies and watched it. And like, not only is it absolutely magical and transformative and beautiful, they loved it so much. And they loved it in a way that they don't love. Yeah, Schlock. You know, it really truly is a beautiful and special film.

And then, but the only way to get them was you have to buy the Blu-Rays like at the Japanese bookstore in Little Tokyo. now they are all on, as we've said before, on HBO Max. Right next to the one where Chandler and Joey get free porn. Yeah, exactly, which makes navigating that website a real, real challenge. So my kids are like, we like friends too. We like our friends at school.

So we were watching them, because some of them are appropriate for all ages, some of them are trend a little bit more mature. I mean, still for kids, but for older kids. And so there are a couple that we'd watched. And then on New Year's Eve, we wanted to do family movie night. And we finally decided to watch Spirited Away, which is considered to be his masterpiece that won the Oscar for Best Animated Film in 2001 and kind of open the floodgates for appreciation of him in this country and around the world. And I've been told it was maybe a little too old for my kids' ages. But you hadn't seen it yet.

No. Okay. And we watched it together. And when it was over, my wife, who you think that I have exacting standards, much stronger standards than I do. was like, I think that was maybe the best movie I've ever seen. Wait, when did you watch it? New Year's Eve before the champagne came out. Okay.

For Bonafides, like when Ae O'Donogadargas did their best movies of the century so far, it was number two. Yeah, I know that it's well respected. So they are so beautiful and inspiring and like really make you come alive because the approach to storytelling is just so not the box that all of our stories are in. watching Spirited Away. It's not just from a kid's movie perspective. It's from a, we watched Soul the day before, the new Pixar movie, which is really admirable. And there I used it. See?

That was my soft praise. It's kind of amazing and beautiful in a lot of ways, but it's also the same Pixar bullshit, right? Where the problem goes in the machine and there's some thoughtfulness and then the problem comes out of the machine. It's so rigid in its storytelling language. and then you watch Spirited Away and there is a stink spirit

in a bathhouse of the of the spiritual world you know getting like herbal tonics and dropping gold and also an emetic dumpling as a gift

for the young girl which is a small piece of river spirit material that makes you vomit impurities okay this is in a kid's movie so it is a tonic

to watch these movies movies and I feel like you need to come on board. So I'm going to present you, Chris, with four options. Pick your poison, pick your own emetic dumpling. Uh-huh. And then we got to talk about what it made you feel and what it did to your storytelling brain. So you want me to watch one of these movies.

I'm going to, yes. I'm going to pitch them to you. And you tell me which one tickles your fancy because famously, you're not the biggest animated guy. Right. Okay. So choice number one, the first one that my family watch, my neighbor Totoro, about two young girls and their father who moved to a house in the country

while their mother is in a hospital and find enchanted wood spirits live there and occasionally ride around the countryside on a cat bus, which is a bus that is also a cat. Okay. Okay. Two, Kiki's delivery service about a young witch. I think I used that back in New York. Did I mean? Kiki's delivery service runs from 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. But it's never... Kiki's delivery service, always six blocks away. This is the best content we've ever done. About a young witch and her talking cat, voiced by Phil Hartman,

not a bus, talking cat, who travels to a new city to find her purpose in life. Okay? Okay. Got it. Three, spirited away, as I discussed, a brilliant and lyrical savage takedown of capitalism told through... I'm realizing right now that the much better content would have been you saying the title and me guessing what the plot of the movies were.

Okay, we can still do that bit. Young girl travels into the spirit realm and it's a big bathhouse and her parents turn into pigs. Okay. You're just taking it now. What's the fourth one? The fourth one, perhaps his most adult film, the wind rises. Okay, and that's his love letter to his main animating forces, which were airplanes and pacifism

about a young guy who designed airplanes in the middle of the century for Japan, but of course they're going to be used as bombers. This is the one that almost was a breaking point from my family's relationship with Miyazaki because one day when I was editing Briar Patch and I was working really late, my wife took the girls to the place where they buy, where they sold the Blu-rays, this is before HBO Max and came back with this one because she thought, quote, they were all for kids. The wind rises is about a chain smoking airplane designer for the emperor during World War II who befriends a German engineer voiced by Werner Herzog. So, you know, oh, and someone dies of tuberculosis. I'm going to that one.

I'm going wind rises. So you're going grown up. Yeah, let me start there and I'll work my way back into childhood. Would you now like to tell us the listeners what you think Nossica Valley of the Wind is about, or perhaps Castle in the Sky. No, we can save that for another one. Castle in the Sky sounds like a car service company in Brooklyn. I will watch, what's it called again? So you want the wind rises. And I notice you chose the one with the least amount of whimsy and cats.

The fewest cats. I'm thinking about getting a cat, but I don't need one in a cartoon right now. Really? We should wrap it up there. We'll figure out a time when we're going to do this exchange, this culture exchange. I think I have to assign you something. Although you and I like a lot of the same stuff. Well, we thought so until this weekend.

Andy was so good to talk to you. Obviously, we've got Wanda Vision coming. We've got a couple of shows coming. So we'll have the regularly scheduled programming coming for you on Monday. Everybody take care of yourselves and stay safe. Yeah, stay safe for instance. Putting off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated. At blinds.com, we've spent 30 years proving it doesn't have to be.

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