The Watch - Welcome to Dystopia: 'Blade Runner 2049,' 'Handmaid’s Tale,' and 'American Gods' (Ep. 148)

Episode Date: May 8, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the new trailer for 'Blade Runner 2049' (1:30), as well as 'Billions' (11:20) and 'Handmaid’s Tale' (15:50), before deep-diving into the new Starz series 'American Gods' (34:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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full of surprises. She's one of, you know, the best comics the last 10 years. Maria Bamford's hilarious. Uh, take a wildly funny trip through a one-of-a-kind comics mind. A prolific voice actor and comic Bamford also stars in the quickly acclaimed Netflix original series Lady Dynamite. It's excellent show. It's based on her own life. Watch Maria Bamford, old baby, now streaming only on Netflix. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello. I welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am the editor at Ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He's a replicant.

It's Andy ReWeld! Why are you doing spoilers so early on a Monday? Well, I don't know if you're a replicant. You literally just said you're a replicate. This is part of your new Trumpian logic. This entire, the last five years of this podcast has just been the test to see if you're a replicant.

And I'm going to now quietly sit down in the rain and power myself off. Blade Runner humor, because there's a Blade Runner trailer, Andy, it's a beautiful Monday in Los Angeles. Chris, it's just great to be back here with you. You know, we've had... And we're talking about. about dystopia!

Yes! You're fired up. We got sharks off the coast. Yeah. I'm playing golf. That's weird. You know, we've got Blade Runner back. We're making sure there are no scientists at the EPA.

Yeah. And we also are going to be talking about Ham Bates Tale and American Gods. A lot going on. I'm just happy. Look, we've had a lot of guests recently. Hello, Darkness, take my hand. We have another guest on Thursday. We're excited about that.

Yeah, let's tell it it it is. It's nice. Surprise. Maybe it should be. Tease it. Like, tease them? Tell them who it is so that they're like, I'm tuning into that. You're using all the shop talk.

Tees it. Yeah, we're staying in the Veep minds. We had the showrunner of Veep, David Mandel, come by. Yeah. But it would say that a lot of that podcast is spent talking about American comedy institutions such as Seinfeld and Curbier enthusiasm, which he worked on. We had a really good time talking about. That was awesome.

That's Thursday. But today is all about us. Yeah, any house cleaning you got? I think, you know, just I know that we keep teasing a night. By Jeff Mandermere. By Jeff Mandermere is the next double-down book club. You should cop that. I think we'll probably be checking to do that at the end of the month, beginning of next

month. I'm easy. Are you? I got nothing else going on. Yeah. Just staying away from the beach. Greenwald, let's talk a little bit about this Blade Runner trailer. I for some reason was thinking a lot about this in relationship to something else.

It's very near to your heart. Okay. Twin Peaks. Oh my God. I can't believe that's happening. So there are some things that are franchises that you're like, yeah, of course, just keep making Star Wars movies. Even though this first three Star Wars movies were like in some ways the paradigm of a trilogy,

there's obviously tons of stuff to be told about that universe. Tales to tell. And then there are things that I think the Twin Peaks and Blade Runner actually share a singularity of vision, which is why I'm kind of bringing this up. Even though Ridley Scott is participating as an executive producer on Blade Runner 2049, which is coming out in October, and is directed by Denny Villeneuve, which I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right anymore. I just always feelings like I'm second-guessing my front-ie.

Denny. Denny. And then Lynch is obviously directing all of the episodes. 18 hours, 19 hours. Whatever it is of Twin Peaks, which is this month. It's in two weeks, my man. That's crazy. I have waited for this for 26 years, and now I don't even know how to feel.

That's how I kind of feel about this Blade Runner thing, where it's like, on one hand, it is something that had such an enigmatic, ambiguous ending and it has been shaped in various ways by subsequent directors cut since the theatrical release and it is such an iconic movie it's such an iconoclastic movie

it is such a unique very much of its time for as much as it opened up the world of sci-fi and movies with that and alien it is very much coming out of the end of the sort of New Hollywood era of of the Coppola and Altman and Scorsese movies that in some ways, Blade Runner and Alien are the bridge between the O'Tore stuff that was happening in the 70s

and the Spielberg box office smashes that would eventually lead to the world of IP and franchises and series that we live in now. Yeah, well said. Thank you. So I have a lot of mixed emotions about this. I'm very interested to go back to this world. I can't think of a better director to bring it to life. I love Ryan Gosling movies.

This trailer that came out today is the second trailer, and it looks very much like an action film in some ways. Like, it looks like there's a lot more set pieces and there's a lot more... It's so strange to revisit a world where the whole attraction in the first place was its newness. Does that make sense? Yes, but I think that part of the attraction now is its uniqueness because we never went back to that world. In a sense, we've been living in it ever since. It is an enormous, as you said, visual and tonal touch. Stone for much of our entertainment from the last almost 40 years.

But it's a very, very specific world and one that, like, I feel like we've been living in the children of it, but we've never gone back to that world. I think the most important thing about this trailer and about this movie existing is what you said about our man, R.M.E. Dene. Because I want to see his movies. Yeah. I want to see all of his movies. And I watched this trailer, and what I thought was, give me this.

Give me all of this. I want all of it. I want to drink it in. I'm so thirsty for this world and things to look like this. You know, we struggle as fans of we always want a bygone era of Hollywood. We always strive for it. And even when we were obviously younger in high school and college in the 90s, but I don't know how much we were realizing that we were in a very specific era

that people would long for just five to 10 years later. We have to accept it at a certain point that we live in this world of genre and blockbuster or an IP. And I think we just have to accept that what we live in is a world where in the best hands, in the most talented visionary hands, that IP, those pre-existing movies or titles or concepts, they're the on-ramps for their vision. You know, he can't, I mean, it's interesting because Villeneuve did make arrival, which is in many ways his own Blade Runner.

It's based on a science fiction short story and is very singular and not connected. to anything else. But in order to jump up to this budget level, you know, certainly before arrival did surprisingly robust business. Like, he needed to play in this pool, I guess. And to me at this point, maybe I'm losing some of my cynicism,

but like let's, and it's because I'm a fan, but let's see what he did with it. You know, I mean, my thing about the, when we talked about the Star Wars trailer, the scene of the red smoke on the desert, I was like, okay, I want that. Yeah.

If you have this money, you have this sandbox to play in, give me vision. man, go for it. And this trailer is delirious and intoxicating. And I'm not just saying that because McKenzie Davis is in it. It's really sumptuous and really exciting. Yeah, I think that one of the things that I miss about the film-going experience when I was younger

is the, frankly, the feeling like you were going to a movie and the stakes weren't that high. Like you could go see single-wash female or, you know, Menace's Society or anything in the theater. Stakes were high for Stephen Weber and single white female. The stakes were high for him. The high heels were high. But the idea that you could just like make a movie to make a movie and that that experience was enough and it didn't have to hold up the bottom line of a ton of shareholders. Not that that wasn't the case back then. I'm not trying to be naive, but still.

Blade Runner actually is closer to that kind of low-stakes filmmaking than we actually think about it. I mean, obviously it was an expensive sci-fi film, but it was a sense. essentially a Raymond Chandler movie. You know what I mean? Like, it's a mystery. And so, the other thing that Blade Runner did was it didn't answer questions. It wasn't explained how we got to this world. It wasn't explained why certain things were happening the way they were.

You know, there was a lot of, there was some information about using repliclinces slave labor and stuff like that. But there wasn't, like, this huge explanation as to, like, the events that led to that. So I'll be interested to see whether or not Blaberner 2049 overly fills in, the blank spaces, and to what extent that kind of ruins the bit? This is actually a very good segue into some of my thoughts about Handmaid's Tale, but I did want to say, if we accept that we're living in a world of this kind of movie making is paramount, this type of storytelling is paramount, and there are only a certain number of dystopic visions to recycle.

The first few images of this trailer, I was like, well, we're doing Westworld again here? Like, I know the plot of Blade Runner. Jared Leto is just like, I don't know what I do. No. First of all, that's a keeper. You got to just put that in the utility bill for Suicide Squad, too. I'm a man of simple pleasures. You know, I want to see my robots drop out of plastic bags.

I don't want to see them in milk baths. That's just how I like to see my fake people. Actually, very specific taste. I know. You didn't know that about me because it's literally never come up before, but now you guys know. I like to see them slither out of bags. Yeah. It's just kind of my thing.

Okay. But Handmaid's Tale, we should talk about this. Yeah, sure. Because what you're talking about, not just in terms of dystopic visions, but also I was thinking about it a lot in cinematic terms, which is interesting because it's a TV show. So we should tee it up. Yeah, I mean, Handmaid's Tales on Hulu.

It is based on the novel by Margaret Atwood, stars Elizabeth Moss, Alex Bledell, Joseph Fines. Yvonne Stravsky. Strahovsky. Sure. So the first few episodes were directed by Reed Murano, who is an accomplished cinematographer and directed of, Olivia Wild movie a couple years ago called MetaLands,

which got some notice, and she does an amazing job with this. She's also, I can't remember what she shot recently, but I think she did also work on billions this year. Can I just say something really quickly before we get into a hands-made scale? Everyone's been waiting for this. Fucking billions, man.

Shout out to billions. You know what, I don't want to interrupt. I feel bad because it's like we were getting really ready to talk about dystopia. Now I'm like, wait, let's talk about billions. Billions is a fucking beast, man. Wait, I sound like Rappaport right now. I sound like Michael Rappaport.

That's fine. I've always wanted to do a podcast with him. Billions is the most entertaining show on television this year. Like, entertaining, like soup to nuts. This is an entertaining show? Is your wife agree with you on this? Is she in? Oh, man.

She was playing Super Mario. I was watching this last night. I was just testing. They had a penultimate episode of the season. I thought, wait, last night there was another episode? Yeah, it was the finale. I thought the finale was last week when you were freaking out with Tim Simons about. No, and I was like saying that,

That was Karen Kusma directed that, and it was basically an Ocean's Eleven remake. It was a heist movie, but with, you know, a bunch of different time shifting. And this week was like an incredibly satisfying finale. Like, it was just like a very, they have found the tone of this movie, of this show. I think I wanted it to be a little bit more lived in and realistic for some reason. And they have decided that when you got Giamati and you got Damian Lewis, what you want is the pork sandwich with the ham sandwich on top of it. Yeah, with a little bit of tailor roll on the side.

Yeah, so my, I just, I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you. I just would tell you that the most of the season hinges on the IPO for a smoothie company called ice juice that Chuck Rhodes Senior invests in and that David Stratherin is in it. This season, as I mean, Blackjack Foley, an Albany fixer. And that David Costaville, who plays Wags, is just out of this. My old neighbor in Brooklyn. This is a show that you just like, I see this is, if this is going to run for six seasons as this showtime way, I'm okay with that. Yeah, I have nothing but optimism and support for this project, this art project known as Billions, because of what you're saying.

Because I was out after the first season because it seemed to be veering, it seemed to be having trouble balancing the two visions of what the show could be. and to my taste early on, it veered a little too close to the troubled, angry, powerful men doing battle like gladiators. You know, this is a, you know, here's a, since we're going macro, here's a bullet point, TV should be fun. Now, it's a funny thing to say in front of Handmaid's Tale.

But it does influence my viewing of it, which even though I'm enjoying it, TV can be challenging and it can be smart and it can be dark, and it can be just about anything entertainment or art can be. but it kind of always has to have a little bit of fun, even if it's perverse fun. Yeah. And it makes me happy to hear that they are leaning into that, especially because of who they have in the cast, because of what the show is about.

And you alluded to this, because they are on Showtime, a network that does not believe in getting in getting out. If you are on the air on Showtime and you are not a weird Twin Peaks Maxi series, you are getting seven to ten years. And the thing is, is I really like Brian Coppulman and David Levine's taste. I like the fact that they will spend five minutes of an episode discussing the Sydney Pollock, John Grisham adaption of the firm. They're very smart guys with good taste. And I really like Goodfellers jokes and guys playing No Limit Hold'em and people trying to buy the New York Giants. And just everything that happens in this show, I'm just like, I'm just a part of this. This is an amazing juxtaposition to The Handmaid's Tale.

Yes. You're like, you're like, ladies, am I right? Sometimes you just want to hear a guy talk about Biden the New York Giants. My bad. So shout out to Reamara, shout out to Billions, and it's a perfect segue into Hamay's Tale. Totally different show. Very different show. Let's ratchet it down a few nodges.

It makes me feel much different about humanity. Weirdly, because, like, you'd think that watching Billions, I would be like, what's the point? But I'm not. Honestly, billions is what everyone was doing when this religious cult was secretly taken over. What if these shows take place in the same timeline? There you go. I think that is possible. I'm the king of my.

If 20- Sign me up, showtime. One thing we should do is try to make a unified theory of television shows of 2017 and see like where they fit on the timeline of the same universe. Where is leftovers after billions but before Handmaid Tale? Also, by the way, you and I, after billions, I would catch up if they wanted to talk about it, if they wanted us for African-Dilions. You and I were just sitting in like a storage locker full of money.

And meat? Like Breaking Bad. And ice juice. Just money and ice juice. Sounds good to me. Okay. Hammeet tail Hammeetail.

Okay, so a couple things. Yeah, let's hear your takes. All positive things first, which is it is still exciting to me when the pieces come together and like to make it, to make an exceptional, or even beyond exceptional,

to make a bold and exciting and really innovative new show. Certainly in terms of content and the type of story they're trying to tell. It is hard. Like people say, well, there aren't that many shows like that. Well, no, duh, it's very hard. Despite all the outlet, despite all the talent in the industry, you really need a lot of things to line up.

And what happened in this case is you have Hulu, which is making a big play to become a much larger part of your TV diet. And as we've seen historically, when services or networks want to make their big play is when they make their best stuff. It's when they make their most creative work. It's AMC getting madmen and Breaking Bad when other networks had passed on them. It's USA taking a chance on Mr. Robot. And it's Netflix with Lilyhammer, the Stephen Van Zant show, that revolutionized television. Is that a punchline or is that because you couldn't think of another example? It's a little bit of a punchline.

But no, so Hulu wanted to make a big splash. And the other thing they got here, and I want to talk about the people who made the show and Bruce Miller and his collaborators and Reed Morano, but they have Elizabeth Moss. Elizabeth Moss is the greatest television actor of our time. And here's why. I was trying to think, you can help me with this. I'm putting you on the spot. I was trying to think of what actors are basically the face of television for different eras.

Jimmy Smiths. And Jimmy Smith is for every era because he is Benjamin Button. I would say in terms of a special class of TV actors, I would say Ted Danson, certainly still this way, but Ted Dantzunson for the 80s. I was going to say Clooney for the 90s because in many ways he represented what TV was and where it was going. but he was also on Rosanne. Also, he's on Rosanne and E.R. That's like hardly, I see what you're saying. So what I want to say is for Elizabeth Moss.

Has anyone put together the Moss resident? There's dancing. There's Moss. But I mean, specifically for the era, because Moss was Mad Men and Top of the Lake. She was West Wing before that. And West Wing. And she's exceptional on all of them, but also the way that she acts. I mean, she's obviously a prestige actor for a prestige era of television.

She's great when she's in movies, too. But her ability to inhabit characters to live. live inside of them for longer periods of time. To play small and intimate with her face and the way that she, you know, she, the way that she, the way that she plays these characters suits television's fondness for close-ups and scene work, you know, she would be lost in a big movie. She is the, I just think she is the actor of our time. And she, you know what else? She embraces memes, which is kind of also important too. Yeah, I mean, she, she's on social media.

She kind of, she plays with this stuff. She gets it. What are her memes of choice? Well, I mean, she gets the power of the Peggy Yolson leaving the office meme. Okay. Other memes, I think she likes... You're really committed to this... I think she really likes the Lilleyhammer meme.

I don't know if you caught that, but it's when little Stephen Van Zandt points to his head and he's like, think about it. Am I right? I'm Lilliehammer. Is that a fucking meme? Oh, okay. I just, sometimes on this show I want to see how far down the staircase of bullshit I can lead to. Because you're a good friend to me. You were willing to give me the rope.

That's what I think about Elizabeth Moss guys. Classic Lily Hammer. Callback. We're dancing around it. The show is especially difficult to watch and especially interesting because of its relevance. So you look at this project, Margaret Atwood wrote this novel about, you know,

basically a United States that has been taken over by a religious cult completely. Women have been stripped of all rights, and those who are able to bear children serve as handmaids in the households of powerful men. She wrote this in the 80s. She felt that this was relevant then, and it was. It kind of is always relevant and terrifying in the world.

But the path to get on television started years ago before we lived in an era where those of us who feel a certain way politically feel like it is very difficult to watch the show, even more so than usual, right? Like this is a show that was created in Obama, America with, I'm sure, the deep assumption that we would be living in Hillary Clinton's America. It's interesting to see how it is being received now.

Think about it. Think about it. Am I right? Huh? It's Southside Johnny over here. No. Do we stick with that? Southside John.

Remember him? No. Who's he? He's from Asbury. Is he? Oh, Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jewps? Yeah. I thought that was like an obscure Sopranos character.

I didn't know about it. I mean, yes. Can it be all of those things? So we could talk about the politics and the thematics of it. What I wanted to say first, because I got a pivot. I have a pivot. When I watched the pilot, what I was most impressed by other than Elizabeth Moss's performance was, I thought Bruce Miller, who adapted it, read Marano, directed it exceptionally, and Miller's collaborators really paced the S out of this thing, right? Like, as a way into this large novel that has a very difficult subject matter and a lot to download you on, basically, as to where we are in the world and what it means, I thought that they did a phenomenal job purely on a structural level in the pilot.

I'm going to see the floor for a minute because this idea of them doing a great job with it as a TV show, I have a sort of a flip side argument about that as we go, like the, as the conversation continues. But I'd love to bring you outside Johnny Interest. Yeah, sure. when you first started, I think I watched these before you, and then you said, this is like super horrifying and typical to watch. Yeah. And I obviously, you know, it was a little bit of a gut check because I didn't find it to be that horrifying. I mean, obviously, like the content of what happens at it, but I did not have a visceral, like, I can't watch this reaction. And I have that about plenty of stuff.

You know, there were several shows that are acclaimed, but like I used to watch even. before it became well-established that everything was going to pretty much work out for the people on Friday Night Lights, I used to watch it with my hands over my eyes because I was like, it needs to work out for these kids. You know what I mean? And when you start out a show

with a guy winding up in a wheelchair that's not a guarantee. Well, those things worked out for him too. I am definitely someone who can, I have an easier time dealing with horror or, you know, suspense than I do with this is drama or comedy of humiliation

or suppression or whatever. As a side note, the current events of the show when she is working for the family is very difficult to watch just because of the reality that they are in. It's the flashbacks that are hard for me. And it's not just the politics, and I do want to talk about the flashbacks,

as the father of girls, like the losing of her child, the stuff in the hospital, all of that stuff. I don't think that you can really take credit for Jenny O'Connor and Lena Dunham's achievements. That took me a second. Check your patriarchy.

That was good. I fathered this show. Grover is my baby. My point is basically that I feel like this is in some ways a masterpiece of tone. If they had done this two steps further into like this is what this feels like, I think it would have been too much. I think it would have been too much to just like watch, you know, because when you think about what is happening in the world of the show and what's happening in the ceremonies and what's happening. as these women get indoctrinated into this program, it's too intense.

It's too intense to contemplate. You know what I mean? It is just like as I throw another one on, like let's run it back kind of show. If they had done it two steps lighter, if they had said like, okay, well, we're not going to show you that. We're just going to imply that this happened off screen.

I think it would have been too flimsy. I think it would have been too thin. I think it would have been like Ann Dowd's performance would have like tipped the case. canoe over and you just would have been like you know what this is like divergent and you know there's some shit happening off screen that we don't understand or that we like they're not showing us but it's not hitting home there's something about the way that they choreographed this in terms of like the pacing the are the way they've articulated the way things are happening and like blade

runner the things that they've chosen to specify and the things that they just leave breadcrumbs about like this uh false flag terrorist attack that happened that seems to have set these events in motion and the rise of this religious kind of fascism to save quote unquote the country, none of which I particularly want to contemplate given the state of our actual world. But the way that they handle it, I cannot say enough about just how delicate this subject matter would have been. Yeah. Not only to be serious enough to take it serious, take Atwood's contents here and it's set up,

but to make it actually palatable so that people will watch it. I agree. I think that one of the smartest and boldest things that the show has done, and we're talking about the show through four episodes, but I don't think we're spoiling. But so far we're not really spoiling much. Is that what it has done is it's rooted the horror and the reality of their circumstance in the body. That is a very risky thing to do.

But every violation of Elizabeth Moss who plays off for its body, and I don't just mean sexual, there's pure violence as well. She gets tortured. And there's emotional violence. Registers. We see what is happening to her. We see the thrusts. We see her reaction when she goes to this creepy gynecologist.

We see her face when she is being physically tortured. We see her body lying on the floor. You know, and so they, she's, it's a brave performance. But to your point, it is an incredibly skillful and harrowing decision by the creative team to give us that and so let us into that part of the world. Here is something that's been discussed I've seen in various places, and it's kind of the most, in terms of like a storytelling device, it's the thing I wanted to ask you about.

Several of the episodes end with a music cue. Are people writing about this? Because I wanted to talk about this. I don't know if I haven't, I've seen it on Twitter, people just being like that I didn't need the end zone dance for the right here. Yep. But basically like there will be like a, 50 minutes of an episode, you're like, fuck.

Yep. And then it ends and Simple Minds comes on and you're like, are we, we're okay? We're like, some minds are playing? We're in the breakfast club. We're good. Backsman Hill is a nice guy. Like, what's going on? And that has happened several times.

Almost every episode. And it's a very, very effective thing. It definitely lets me out of that episode a little bit like more like, okay, fuck, let's watch another handmaid's tale. Which is probably the goal. Yes. I think it sucks. I think it's a terrible choice.

It has thrown me out of my, a lot, the way I'm speaking about my admiration for like the depiction of the female body on the show and then they play simple minds and Offred memes herself and it's like, don't let the bastards grind you down, bitches. Yeah. Like, no, no, no, no.

It just feels so tonally off to me. And this is also the problem with voiceover is you always have to think about, here's one of the reasons I hate voiceover. And I took me a few times watching like Goodfellas before. Sam S.M.L. on the phone. He'd like to speak to you about this. Go on.

It took me several times even watching like Goodfellas, which is probably like in my top five favorite films of all time, to be like, yeah, okay. Because I always ask from where is this voice coming from the future, telling me that everything has worked out? Because even if you're doing there like, this is me, I'm like, you know, Sunset Boulevard. I'm lying face down in the pool.

Like it's, I don't love. Yep, that's me. Bet you wonder how I... That's a meme, by the way, for those listening at home. Where is Elizabeth Moss's voiceover coming from? Well, I think it's her internal monologue, right? In the moment. Yes, but when they do those moments, it suggests a eventual triumph.

Right. And these are the things that I think that we're seeing is a very interesting collision between cinematic and artistic ambition and television. And I mean that that is value neutral, this comment. This is just where we're headed and one of the things that if you're a fan of the medium, it's interesting to track. You're pointing out aspects of it, the voiceover, which is, from when I understand, I think I'm the only graduate of Brown University to have not read the book from a small sample size of my friends and colleagues.

So I don't know the book, but there's a lot of voiceover in the book, and that's sort of what livens it up because there's a vibrant voice. Well, no, but that it's, first person, have you read a book? They're great. This thing is all voiceover. Where the picture's at? Outside? Think about it. So what I'm saying is these little things that are, whether they were intentional, whether

they were network notes, to keep you in this difficult world. I think you're right on to it. We hear Elizabeth Moss's voice suggesting triumph. We see flashbacks to Samira Wiley having some radical rebellious spirit that I'm sure we'll pick up on again. We have these big actouts with pop songs and with. The fourth episode ends with a swell of solidarity that I just was surprised by because it was a cool moment, but it did not feel to me to be in keeping with the hour of television I just watched. And so this speaks to my issue, which is a small one.

I'm a fan of the show. I'm admiring the show. But my small issue with it, which is the TV-ness of it. Now, this is a weird argument for me to take because I'm always arguing for the strength of TV as a medium. But certain things. Now, I don't remember the movie they made of this in the 80s. I didn't see it. The Natasha Richardson movie.

Natasha Richardson movie. And I can only imagine there's a giant book that's literally about world creation and world sustaining. And then I imagine at some point world upheaval to tell it in two hours. I can't even imagine. It wouldn't do it justice. Well, they're going to make a second season of this. Well, this is what I'm getting at. But there are moments, particularly in the first two episodes, where they suggest,

where the subject matter is so heavy, but the approach to it is so artistic that it elevates. it is not, because TV is, and I'm not the only person to say this, people have said this happily and they've said this with misery, people in the business. TV is a plot machine. You know, it just grind, you feed plot in, and it fuels the engine and you keep moving forward. There are moments like the stoning or this, not stoning,

when they beat the rapist, you know, when you see that when Reed Morano shoots it from above and the red cloaks, and I'm like, this is just something else. There's something aesthetically inspiring here and disturbing, and there's violence and the sound, and it's coming together an aesthetic whole, and leaving me with a kind of,

of elevated but ambiguous emotion that movies can leave you with. And then it's just back into it with this grinding plot. And grinding is a bad word. But the plot and the flashbacks and this sense of world building and story building. And then nothing bummed me out more, quite honestly, is when they announced season two of Handmaids, which isn't to say it doesn't deserve it. Things that are much worse have deserved second seasons. But I was kind of excited about the idea that Hulu was just like, we're just going to dunk

on this story and leave you with something amazing. It doesn't always have to be two seasons. Now, the truth behind these decisions at the moment in Hollywood are really like, you know, a year ago, or two years ago when they got together, Bruce Miller said, I'm going to tell the story of the book with some additions and I'm going to tell it in two seasons or three seasons or whatever. And they said, okay, but you don't announce it, wink, wink, you see how it's received. You get people on board.

So in a way, it's no different. It's still a limited series. It's just being spun out as this. But there have been times when the Gengablock stacking of television have taken me out of this because TV is great for a lot of stories and I don't know, and we're learning about what stories TV can support. This is a test case to see whether it can support a story like this.

I think the next show that we're going to talk about is also a perfect test case. So let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and then I want to talk about American Gods. I want to take a break here to talk to you about the Black Tucks. Looking great for a wedding or a special event has never been easier with the Blacktucks.com. We are big fans of these guys. from our wonderful duds that they put us in for the Oscars show, with high-quality rental suits and tuxedosos delivered straight to your doorstep.

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BSPN. That's the blacktucks.com slash BSPN for $20 off your first purchase. Today's episode of the watch is also brought to you by Delta. You know, when you're trying to get from point A to point B, oftentimes all of your energy is spent on simply making it to your destination. And that's why Delta offers every type of entertainment for every passenger for free with Delta Studio.

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He comes from the Whedonverse, right? Why I like him? So much so much day. Yeah, he is. And he's used to write for Everwood and Smallville and Jack and Bobby. And he wrote for heroes. But this year he has Blade Runner 2049. He has a screenwriting credit on.

Alien Covenant. Kenneth Branagh's Murder on the Orient Express and Logan. Wow. and American Gods and he's developing co-executive producer of American Gods and he's developing Why the Last Man, one of the best comics of the last 20 years for FX. Can you tell me a little bit?

Because I actually was not familiar with the source material. Okay. I'm not at Gaman head. No. No. I'm not out of, it's just a blind spot for me. So tell me a little about it. American Gods is a 2001 novel by Neil Gaiman.

Neil Gaiman is considered by many to be one of, if not the greatest comic book writer of all time. I mean, he sort of left that genre behind and he writes novels and other things now. He wrote the DC Comics Sandman that influenced many generations of storytellers and wannabe goths. He is incredibly erudite, clever,

almost encyclopedic in his knowledge of this idea of storytelling and folklore storytelling and myth. And he has this ability in his writing, particularly in Sandman, to spin these stories that seem to be so, like, like, they're like spun with like gossamer silk and they make you feel smarter

and transported having read them and American Gods is just like of course he wrote this book because it's basically it's a novel not a novel it's a prose novel there's some voiceover in that so might interest you basically about a world where the old gods

one of whom is represented by Ian McShane's character in the series in America are at war with the new gods of like media and technology. And, you know, he sort of radically reimagines what gods would be like today and what worship would mean and blah, blah, blah. And it's just, it's Neil Gaiman, it's Neil Gaiman 101.

And it's interesting to note that it's other people have struggled to give us what he does in other mediums. There really have been, to my mind, no adaptations or successful adaptations of his work. Star-like, what was that one? Oh, right, there was that movie. Matthew Vaughn made that movie that I didn't see Starlight.

Star Dust? Star Dust. Star Dust. My favorite muse song, by the way. I feel like you have a favorite music song? That's a good song. The rest of them. So this one has been in development for a long time.

This was, it seemed like a slam dunk, and yet it took 16 years to bring it to the screen. I can't imagine why it would seem like a slam dunk, because it is. Well, I think it seems like a slam dunk early on. Fruit Loops. You're like bestseller, religion, mythology, Neil Gaiman. And, like, you know, all the genre heads wanted to crack at it.

HBO was going to make it. And that just seemed like, you know, it was announced in the wake of or concurrently with Game of Thrones. Like, this is going to be their big genre play. And it's big enough for them. They finally had to be like, look, we tried three writers on it. It didn't work. So it was a long time coming. And it's a lot.

It's a spicy meatball. Yeah. Let's start with the good stuff first. Yeah. Looks like a billion dollars. Really does. David Slade, who's probably, well, he's among the handful of best directors working on TV. He works with Fuller Off.

Several, obviously did a lot of Hannibal stuff, and then also directed a very underrated horror movie. Oh, it's called 30 Days of Night with Josh Hartnett. Based on a comic book. Yeah, I was just an excellent, I thought that was always an excellent movie, but I've liked David Slade's stuff for a while. And, I mean, there's a scene in the first episode where a very, like, Milo Yiannopoulos-type dude is in the back of a limousine, smoking synthetic toad-toed skin. And remember, it's not a limousine. It's a robot VR console that's attached itself to the face of the lead character named Shadow Moon. My wife bounced on this joint, like, 35 minutes in it's just like, this is giving me a headache.

Yeah, I texted you last night when I was watching the pilot, and I was like, maybe the best... I'm so happy I did a poor job convincing my wife to stick around to watch it, because when the Bellagio Fountains of Arterial Blood started bouncing, blowing out of Viking skulls in the first 30 seconds, I was like, this is not for everyone. But that's going to be a meme is that dude getting shut with all those arrows. And it should just say never tweet. Meme creator! Think about it. Yes. Why am I doing that?

I feel like I've never seen Lily Hammer. Yeah. Full disclosure. Me either. And I'm just, I'm kind of want to do the part in Goodfellas where Jimmy Cowellers. Like you insulted him a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah. Karen. But I don't know what I'm talking about. The best part of the show. By the way, that's the poll quote from our. our podcast. So I'll put that on iTunes. This show, if Ian McShame wasn't in it, this show would be drifting off into like outer, outer outer space.

Yeah. It's so weird. I don't know what it's about. I don't even understand like the undergirding of mythology that may be a play here. Like it is not doing a lot of busy work. You know, we talked a lot about the course of this episode. Yeah, but it's not, it's not doing a lot. I don't know where the Cliffs notes are, but they did not get dropped off in my house.

And then McShane is on, and McShane plays Mr. Wednesday, who you were saying is an old god. He, I mean, I don't know if they've announced it. I mean, he is, put it this way, he is a god who is played by another British titan of the stage in a popular comic book movie series. Is he actually Alfred from Batman? He is Alfred from Batman. That's right. You got it. I don't know who you're... Why don't you tell...

Okay, you can skip ahead of 15 seconds if you want the spoiler. Who is it? He's Odin. Oh, no shit, really? Wednesday is Odin's Day. That's what the Wednesday comes from. What? Did you know that?

No. This is the shit that Neil Gaiman teaches you. Seriously. What? And it's the kind of stuff that makes you feel like super smart. Wednesday is named after Odin? Yeah. Who do you think Thursday's named after?

Thor's day. No, it's not. Yes, it is. What world have you been living in, man? we are all as guardians. You're giving me the look like I'm leading you down the bullshit staircase. Is this going to be like, is this like what you're like? No.

This is true. This is a thousand percent true. Forrest day? Yes. That's what we're doing? That's what we're doing in three days. Okay. So let's just table that for maybe when Ragnarok comes out.

Sooner than you think. McShane is, you talked about Elizabeth Moss being like the television actor for generation. Like McShane is in the convo. just because when he is on screen, no matter how good or bad the material is, he is like his above replacement, like what he does better than the replacement level actor who could play that role is just so high.

And he can take, this show like completely comes to life. Jonathan Tucker is really good in it. And Powell Shriver is awesome in it. Pornstash is in the show as a violent leprechaun. Yes. But Ian McShane really, really does the damn thing. It does sound like we're,

We're smoking toad skin. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, I guess I would. So here's the thing is like this is like, like, like Preacher, I went into this not knowing the source material even if I'm aware of it. I was aware of Preacher. I kind of flipped through it, but I'd never read it. And I found Preacher to be, Preachers one of my favorite shows on television.

I think it's amazing. Preachers tons of fun. Yeah. This show is got some stuff going for it. Sure. But is just right now a little bit out of touching distance for me. Here's, here's why I think people should watch the pilot, whether it's their bag or Because, you know, put on your TV 101 or, like, frankly, graduate level hats at this point.

The show is a beautiful, dazzling, confusing, exciting, annoying mess. And then, 20 minutes into it, our main character, who I reiterate is named Shadow Moon, recently released from prison, gets on an airplane, and he's sitting next to Ian McShane. And then the grown-ups takeover. Yeah. the scene of them on the plane together. McShane has breakfast, lunch, dinner, and a fucking after-dinner mint in this scene.

He is so exciting to watch on the screen. I, like, I levitated off of my couch. It's been a minute since, like, I've seen a 10-minute scene with McShane. Because, like, he's in John Wick. He does bit things here and there. He, like, shows up. He was on Thrones last year.

Yeah, I mean, he's good. Yo. But it's rare that you get, we haven't gotten a lot of, like, high-usage McShane since Deadwood. He is incredible in the scene. And it's an interesting lesson because you need actors to sell this stuff. You need to ground it.

So for as visually impressive and, you know, as entertaining and sort of head scratching and intriguing, there's this long, very bloody opening that actually does tie into McShane's arrival in America. Yeah, the totem and the blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's okay. And I generally am like, let's go for it. Let's go full gonzo with TV. Let's take advantage of this stuff, but of all the toys you have to play with. But you can't just go there.

Because when I was watching it, I was like, this is just kind of a noisy mess. And there's enough good stuff on TV that I don't need to be dazzled by that anymore. I mean, everything Brian Fuller does and David Slade does with him is visually worthwhile. And I don't think he does things that are just throw away ever. I mean, he really considers every image. But Hannibal was horrifying, but slow and considered. And you sort of would – there was savagery and horror, but you were forced to confront it. this is a lot more glib,

which is probably a more successful tone. It's a tone that's in Preacher, too. A successful tone for this type of show. But I found it glib to the point of being disposable until McShane shows up. And, you know, the other thing, the other strike against the show is it's problematic, and this is true in movies too,

when it's certainly not unique, but when your hero is the least interesting character, when all the colorful gods and monsters and character actors are surrounding this guy who, by the way, full disclosure, gorgeous, very handsome man, our shadow moon.

Former model from England who acts like a former model from England. Maybe he gets better in it, but there's like a scene where they've asked him to like give this monologue. This is Ricky Woodle you're talking about. Yeah, they asked him to give a monologue at a graveside in the middle of the episode.

And this character is supposedly carrying this burden and this grief, but we keep forgetting about that because we're so dazzled by McShane. So it's tough. You know what this is like, Chris? It's making a meal out of side dishes. Sometimes you can do that.

You go to Boston Market? Boston Market. It used to be the king of that. The Symphony Hall, Boston Market, and Boston, I used to just roll deep with the mashed potatoes, macaroni and cheese, and corn. And I'd mix it all up together. When? Because that's how college was.

At what age did someone tell you, because I have an answer to this, too. Did someone tell you that mashed potatoes and macaroni and cheese is not a balance? No, those aren't. Stuffing. Sorry. stuffing, macaroni and cheese and corn. Oh, much better. No, I did that too.

Mashed potatoes and macaroni and cheese. Like, this is one of God's greatest. Yeah. But you're not supposed to do that as an adult. It's too many starches, too many sides. It is, yeah, sure. But when you're a college student and your diet is different. Your diet, your whole physical corpus is a little bit different.

I'd say that, you know, that stuff just like you burn it off, man. You burn it off with learning. You know, I texted you a photo of you from, from, the fall of 1998. A lot more hair. But, you know, you look very well. They don't put that on the Boston market warning. A mixture of starches can cause male patterned fall.

But there's not a moment of it you regret us there. How can you regret it, man? So let's recap here. We're going to finish handmade sale. Yes, of course. I think we're in. I'm going to give American Gods another run. Maybe we'll drop in a little bit later in the season.

Okay, so Thursday we got this VEP episode with David Mandel. It's also very heavy on Seinfeld and Curbs. So if you're a fan of any of those shows. No beep spoilers. No Veep spoilers. Then Monday, you know, we can do leftovers. We could do... We've got to go back to left.

We have to check back in with leftovers. We have to check back in with Fargo later in the week. We also have to... We haven't talked about Silicon Valley this year. We also haven't talked about the return of catastrophe. Oh, yeah. Which is back on Amazon and thrilling people the world over. Okay.

So we'll do that. I would like to start a social media campaign to encourage Andy to see Alien Covenant. and it corresponds with an important life event for him. Yeah, I just feel very warmly towards this movie because all over Los Angeles, there are posters, very, very stark posters that just say, my birthday, and then they say run. I think some of them say scream, too,

or maybe that's just I'm projecting that. Maybe you can get a GoFundMe to pay for your ticket. And my therapy? Listeners to this podcast may know that I saw Prometheus in the theater the day after a Grant-Land Summer Party with you and Sean Fantasy with a blood alcohol level roughly equivalent to the movie's running time.

That was a tough day in my own chestal area. Yeah. But, you know, I did it with the help of some good friends. We'll be there. So we want to talk about Covenant coming up. I don't know if we're going to get a chance to talk about King Arthur. I want to see Guardians the Galaxy, man. Well, maybe we'll hit Guardians.

Since you're putting me on Front Street with my reticence to see horror movies, you don't want to see Guardians. You don't want to see it. You're out. I just don't care. You don't like space hijinks. I'll see it. I mean, it's my responsibility to see it, but when there's triple headers of playoff basketball, it's hard for me to be like, I got to go watch this small piece of bark.

Are your criticisms of it similar to Neil DeGrasse Tyson's criticisms of it? No. I don't give a shit about the size. Oh, yeah. Is that his problem with it? Well, there are no audible explosions in space. They just like, just say that for every space movie. You don't have to make a viral video for every sci-fi movie.

We're like, well, actually. Let Neil DeGrasse Tyson eat. That's his brand. Think about it, Neil. You insulted him a little bit. Sorry. All right. Talk to you next week.

Have a great job. You did a great job, Brandsky. Next again to Delta Airlines for sponsoring the show today. Delta offers every type of entertainment for every passenger for free with Delta Studio. Delta Studio grants you access to over 1,000 hours of entertainment, all from your seatback or from your own device 100% for free. Choose from podcasts like The Watch, games, television, up to 300 movies like comedies, dramas, family films, thrillers.

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streamable from your laptop, your iPhone, your iPad, or your Android tablet device via the GoGo Entertainment app. So buckle up, relax, and delve into another world while you soar above. your own with endless entertainment from Delta studio your journey is sure to fly by