The Watch - ‘Westworld’ Season 3 and the Problems With Robots on TV. Plus: Chris Carraba Reflects on the Legacy of Emo Music | The Watch

Episode Date: February 21, 2020

The ‘Westworld’ Season 3 trailer dropped today and the show looks more sci-fi, and more expensive, than ever (5:41). ‘Better Call Saul’ is back on Sunday night with its penultimate season. It���s a show we loved, left, and have come to love again (18:56). Plus, Andy sits down with his longtime friend Chris Carraba, lead singer of Dashboard Confessional, to reflect on his career (24:43) and the legacy of emo music (1:03:08).  Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Chris Carraba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Starting this week, we're launching a new show on the Ringer Dish feed, recapping the return of Survivor for its special 40th season. This season features 20 previous winners of Survivor competing for $2 million, the largest cash prize in reality TV show history. Riley McAtee and a rotating guest from the Ringer staff will recap every Thursday. So make sure you subscribe to the Ringer dish feed for shows like Jam Session, Tea Time, and the new Survivor Recap show,

on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the wringer.com. And joining me in the studio, are we human or are we Evan Rachel Wood?

It's Andy Greenwald! Oh, that was a good one. Thanks, man. I've been slipping. You know, but that references music, which is something that exists. So I feel like that was some co-branding for your other podcast. One of your favorite exclusive Spotify podcast.

You can also listen to Music Exist for free on Spotify. And if you don't know what that is, that's a podcast that I am doing with Chuck Posterman. It's a 15-episode podcast about how we think about talking about how we think about music is the tagline. What's Spotify, though, I'm not familiar. It's a great, great service. Great. I might look into it. Yeah.

Hey, guys. Greenwald's here. Today on The Watch, we're going to talk a little bit about Westworld. And then in the second half of the show, a summit unlike any of we've seen since Frost Nixon. Greenwald Caraba. Two. Yeah.

Well, nine actually. So wait. I'm sure you, did you, did you talk to Chris Cropa from Dashboard Confessional? Yes. And we'll set it up closer to the end of this first segment. Okay. But basically, yeah, this is someone who I've now known for almost 19 years, who I basically wrote a book about, literally.

Yeah. And nothing feels good. Still available on Amazon.com and find booksellers? And independent bookshops, of course. of course. I'm sure. God, you've changed since you went corporate. No, but I bet, like, do you ever check in bookstores to see if it's there?

Yeah, it's not. Okay. 100% it's not there. I do check and no. But it exists, much like music and podcasts about it. That was exciting to do. But I do, at the top of the show, one of a little housekeeping. So there is no new episode of Briar Patch this week on television.

And thus, we are not doing our, you know, what hopefully will become a traditional episode recap. episode recap. And so I just wanted to give people a little bit of the behind the scenes about that. There has been some alarm. And I get it. I get, as someone who used to be on the other side of this, I understand why a sudden time slot change doesn't seem like the best thing. Might not be the best thing, but it also might be the best thing. Just to bring you guys fully in on everything, our ratings are fine. And, you know, our DVR stuff and on demand stuff, which is how basically people watch TV these days are fine. The demo number, which is the number, which is the number. people look for of younger, like 18 to 49 year olds. I love that demo because we are still in it. We're still in it, man. We still got it. Was not awesome. Right. And when they told me that, I was like, do they know that Ed Asner joins the show in episode

three? And does that move the needle? And it's also like, it's really dismissing the very vocal group of 13-year-olds who are watching. And my parents. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, as it turns out, they were rerunning the show after one of their most popular programs, which is Monday Night Raw, wrestling.

and the demo numbers were really good. Yeah. So truly, truly, I say this, to the best of my knowledge and from what everyone has told me, like everyone likes the show at the network. Everyone is supporting the show, and they've been amazing. And if you've been watching it on DVR or on demand,

nothing changes. Right. Episode 3 is on demand now for you to watch, and I hope you do. I think it's a really good one and one of our, really sort of the one that pivots towards the rest of the season

because it's the first one that we did with the writer's room up and running. Sure. I'm really excited for people to see it. Amazing cast joining the show in this episode. And our episode next Thursday we'll have one of the writers.

Yes, we'll have Eva Anderson who wrote the episode joining us to talk about it. So what this means is if you've been watching it on DVR or on demand and chances are if you've been watching it that is how you've been doing it.

Nothing changes. Please continue to enjoy the show and if you've on demanded it once, keep it running when you leave the house. Yeah? No, I don't think that would work. But I welcome my new Undertaker stand. Stone Cold Andy Greenwald.

I mean, it's just perfect because as you know, as someone who has been passionate about wrestling from the beginning and never shied away from my love for it. No, I am excited about the move. I'm excited about the possibility

of new viewers. I actually love that wrestling fans seem to be enjoying this show. It's not what I would have expected, but I love it. Other than David Shoemaker, who I think is literally the Ben Diagram of both of these things.

Phenise's brother and Shoemaker. That's fantastic to me. And look, you know, I remain very bullish about this show. I'm extremely proud of the work that we did. I think the best episodes are very much still to come, and all of them are going to air.

I did see a French website announcing that the show had been canceled. And I was like, French. Parasoir, you know. No, no, I don't know. I saw a tweet in French. And I was like, cancel culture has gone too far. When they canceled.

My Gallic friends. That's absolutely not the case. The entire season is going to air. That's the most important thing. And then a decision is going to be made about future stories. But look, this is the whole story for this season anyway. And it's only going to get better. So I'm excited for you guys to check out what's to come.

And if you're so inclined, you can watch episode 3. now and we'll talk about it next week. But if you really want to watch it linearly, Mondays after wrestling at 11 p.m. Yeah. Is when you can do it. So let's talk a little bit about Westworld because... Yeah, my favorite topic.

It is your favorite topic. Westworld remains probably... I would almost venture to say that Westworld is the flagship show of HBO at this point. Huh. We've done our part to make it the outsider. We've tried, yes. And I think outsiders are doing quite well.

But I would say purely from what appears to be an economic outlay, judging by this trailer for season three, then yes. Yes. In the absence of Thrones and in the absence of a Thrones prequel. Or a second season of Watchman. This would appear to be their flagship show at the moment. Yes. And they certainly pulled out all the stops for this final trailer.

So the new season, season three comes out March 22nd, I believe. And I was very struck by a couple of things by this trailer. So the full trailer went up. We'll put that. I think the watch has already tweeted it up, but we'll put it with the episode. And when you say final trailer, you mean final trailer for the season before the season debuts. It is not necessarily been announced as the last season of the show.

No. Although there are vibes of that. You think so. Okay. So let's start talking about the vibes then. You go first. This as a West World Scholar. Trailer looks more expensive than not only the show that I made, but every show I've ever

watched put together. Uh-huh. if you attached a GoPro camera to Scrooge McDuck's head as he did his signature Greg Luganis-style high dive into his vault of money, this is what the GoPro would capture. It's staggering. Two, I guess we're going full Matrix, full sci-fi. Yeah, so my note was Blade Runner with less pollution. Yes, clean, clean, clean Blade Runner. Yeah.

It is a, and I say this, and everyone knows. knows who listens to this podcast that I've never been a big fan of the show. This trailer, honestly, is the most compelling document to watch it, the show, that maybe I've ever seen. It's an exceptional trailer. Yeah. I think part of the issue with the seasons that preceded this was it was impossible to pitch this show as a character-based show. It was impossible to be like, come back to Westworld because you care what happens to Tanny Newton or you care what happens to Jeffrey Wright, primarily because the show, to such extremes to be like, well, they can be

anyone. They can be reprogrammed. They can be booted down. Their deaths are really more of like a moral thing and an ethical thing than they are like a... And a timeline thing. A time. Yeah, and exactly. And also at any given point, the rug can be pulled out from under you and you can find out that this thing, you know, there was speculation that Westworld was taking place on the moon or Mars or whatever. And I was struck by, aside from the look and obviously the change in location, the way that they tried to emphasize like, It's just the five of us.

Which I thought I was really struck by that too. And I was like, oh, so like they're really trying to make it feel like Evan Rachel Wood, Tessa Thompson, Tanny Newton, Jeffrey Wright, Ed Harris, and the newly arrived Aaron Paul are somehow like the gang from the island and lost. Yeah, these are our core. Core four, core five. And I have such an emotional attachment to these people, which I do not. But I am very interested by that pivot because I feel like that's a good note to take. Now, they also went very far in being like, Tanny Newton's the bad guy in this show,

or at least is working for Vincent Cassell who seems like the bad guy. I love Vincent Cassell. Sure there will be a twist there. Evan Rachel Wood is definitely the hero, and it repivots because in the original teaser, Aaron Paul's character seemed like he might be the hero or the protagonist of this show

and that he would be the guy who's working construction in this sort of like very dystopian Epcot center of the city and being brought into this world. But this really made it more like Evan Rachel Wood's Dolores is Neo. So to speak to your Matrix thing. Yeah. To the point you're making,

it was really nice and clarifying, actually. And this is either a positive in the short term or maybe it's a negative if you extrapolate what I'm saying over the course of two previous seasons. To say the five actors that you mentioned are top of the line actors. Yeah. These are great.

And they've had Tessa Thompson, like, on the line for a minute. Is she a robot now? Is that the story? She is, if I'm going to get killed for this, but I think she's at Harris's daughter. Oh, yeah, I remember that, right. But so not a robot? Does that not matter? I mean, well, who knows, right?

Who knows? Yeah. I think that what was really, other thing that I would say that was really impressive about it is that it did appear that HBO has learned a lesson or two from Netflix, which was to make seasons events. It's the Stranger Things model. where they fully branded this trailer, which is, again, more lavish than most big-budget movies. And I'm sure the season

has a price tag equivalent to a big-budget movie. No, they have like robocop robots running around, yeah. They positioned it like a sequel, like a movie, like an event. And that's interesting because it will not be unveiled to us

like an event. It will be week to week. But they are selling the spectacle and the scope in a way that I don't know if... I'm trying to get it exactly right, what felt different about it.

And I guess on some level, I've felt that HBO in the past has leaned into its programming style, which is to say that the trailers and teasers, obviously things changed once we got into the later throne seasons. But generally, even Thrones, the teasers and trailers were more literally teasers. Even the larger ones were whispers and hints of the journey that will begin on a certain Sunday night. Yes. Not the scope of what we're headed towards. You know, and at the end of Thrones, maybe they would show an army massing in front of where. they happen to be massing.

I've forgotten the names of all the locations of Game of Thrones after six months. Sorry. Winter fell. That was it. I was going to call it Castle Black, which was a different place. Don't worry, I've turned in my binge mode card. I am no longer... And you were just one punch away from a free binge.

I know, and I no longer deserve it. I have expired. So that alone was interesting that it's Westworld three. But I have a larger... So look, if you were into the show already, I bet you're going to be really happy. judging by Twitter reaction already and even the way that I enjoyed watching the trailer,

this is that rare kind of marketing that might bring people back. But here's my larger take and if this needs to go on the Spotify Premium podcast the hottest take, so be it. I also am workshopping

a lukewarm take podcast for title. That's good. Doug already published it, unfortunately. Damn it. And I've been thinking about this and I've been thinking about it in relation to not just Westworld

but other popular entertainment I don't care about AI. I have mentally. I don't think that they do anymore either. Well, because part of this trailer was that AI stuff that they were doing in the first two seasons and about like the uncanny valley, it's still there. But I feel like they are trying to tie the bow around the idea of like, what if we're the robots? I get that. And that there is a class war happening and that the world.

working class people are actually being treated like Dolores. Well, that's interesting, and that obviously is more interesting to me based on my inflammatory statement of a moment ago. But I've been watching Star Trek Picard more than the pilot. Because as I swore on this podcast, I love Patrick Stewart, and I subscribe to CBS All Access. You do swear it. And I'm struggling with it. I'm struggling with it for a bunch of reasons.

But I think one of the primary reasons is so far, anyway, with the character, with one of the, like the primary motivator of the plot is this being that may or may not be Data's daughter. The inciting incident prior to the series is a time when synths

as they're calling them on Star Trek rebelled and killed a lot of humans. And I don't care. And it's weird, but I just was watching Picard and he's making the argument that the character Picard made over the course of Star Trek the next generation

that Lieutenant Commander Data was a person with a soul and couldn't be dismissed. And that worked well as a relationship between two characters as one was growing and changing and learning feelings and whatever. But this argument that sci-fi seems to really want to make all the time that computers are a species that we need to learn to love and empathize and respect with. And then making the computers. And they always rise up and kill us. The protagonist. Yeah. First of all, shame on us.

We are Lucy with a football. They're just going to do it again. Yeah. But two, isn't this why Black Mirror has resonated so successfully? Because Black Mirror's whole thesis is that this is not speculative fiction where we need to imagine a world where you can dip an exoskeleton in goo and come out with Evan Rachel Wood. It's basically saying we are already slaves to technology in insidious ways. And rather than try to argue that Siri should have voting rights, we might. might just want to question where we're at.

You know what I mean? I love this take. So it's bizarre to me that again and again. I don't know that I would have been very engaged with a third season of what are we doing to the robots? It's odd because, and it honestly, on some level, it, I mean, how much do you want me to escalate this take? I can pull the fire alarm and the sprinklers won't put it out, which is to say that humans have plenty of problems as is.

Oh, okay. And as your point about maybe the smart move in Westworld season three, which we have not seen, and we'll reserve judgment on, could be that they are bringing in this idea of a class issue involving humans instead of just robots. But if Aaron Paul turns out I'm a bot. But it does speak to this kind of distancing and sort of creative fear of actually dealing with relevant things in our life that also creates things like the dearly departed Confederate TV series. Which is to say, instead of making a show about class, if you want to make a show about class, or race, if you want to make a show about race, or just mistreatment of others, you have to dress it up in this, hmm, speculative what if? General E. Lee stroking his beard in the White House lawn kind of nonsense. Yes. And it's like, what are we really doing here?

Did you ever read any like alternative history books when you were kid? Not alternative history. Oh, like the real truth that they won't tell you? No, I mean like what if FDR had done this books? You mean every Bill O'Reilly book? Is that the new book club? Isn't every Bill O'Reilly book, like Abraham Lincoln is sitting in the booth watching theater?

And he's like, theater is for sissies. And he gets up and notices John Wilkes' booth and he wrestles him to do a ground and then, you know, shoots the Constitution in the face. Gives Texas back to, yeah, right. Or whatever? Yes. No, the answer is no.

Now, did I read Star Trek The Next Generation novelizations? Chris, I sure did. So if you ever want to talk about that, avail. So that's Westworld. That's coming out in March. We will probably be talking about Westworld. I know that Danny Hyfitz and David Shoemaker will be talking about Westworld going forward. You may notice an absence of Survivor takes on this episode of The Watch.

I highly recommend listening to... Go ahead. Riley McAtee on Ringer-Dish talking about Survivor. Today, he talked about it with Mallory Rubin. It was another great episode. What's going on with Survivor? Do you want me... You sound 1,000 years old.

I don't want to know. Uh-huh. Because I have 20 years in, pot committed to the bit of not caring. It's just good this year. How is it better? Because all the players are good, because they've all won before.

So this is the same way I'm going to be talking about Top Chef All-Stars in a month. But it's like if they played the NBA All-Star game, and that was the only game they counted. Which is what happened last week. Yeah, but like that's it. Right. There's not, then you go back to the bucks.

I want people to understand that one of the things that we lost after we gave up our brief dalliance with YouTube, is you can't see the way Chris's eyes just, like, turned into burning sapphires of intensity. Like, I know, I know we have, like, he likes high fidelity, blah, blah, blah. Chris likes all sorts of things. But I haven't seen that look in your eye since the Philadelphia Eagles.

Since Sicario came out. Since the poster for Sicario 2 came out or the Eagles won the Super Bowl. That's right. You are red hot for this. I know you will watch it, but I'm just trying to tell you, is why people are so excited. And the gameplay is on a level that I would say

I personally have not seen before. But like a couple weeks ago, wasn't everyone like Jeff Probst is problematic in the way he's handling stuff? Is this the same season? No, it's a different season. But that was like two weeks ago. They do a winter spring season and a fall Christmas season. So it usually ends, I think, around

Christmas because I usually don't get to watch the finale with my life. And you've, I know we've done this multiple times over the last eight years of this podcast. You watch them all. I do. Wednesday night, I watch Survivor with my wife. It is like a really common thing in America. God.

America is amazing. You watch stuff with your wife all the time. Not really. Mostly we watch our Apple TV menu screen and decide what we think about maybe we'll, you know, finish this out, and then we don't. Will you be watching Better Call Saul with your wife? No, she hasn't watched that show. Okay. Will you be watching Better Call Saul, though?

God damn right. Yeah, so that comes back Sunday. This week already? Better Call Saul comes on Sunday night and also Monday That's great They're putting up the first two Let's say

Just by wave transition Then we'll get into this Chris Caraba conversation What a ride it's been for us An AMC's flagship show Better Call Saul But really just to say We were all in on the first season or so

And then we both slacked And I don't remember which one of us first Like spent a little time on Netflix Just catching up You did You This was like a real like OG Greenwald text where you got off a plane

and you were like, just watched Nine Saul's time to get back in. And I was like, oh shit. Yeah. I was dressed like Josh Burland and Sicario 1. That's right. On the plane. And it's this weird like quasi-cobbled together

version of contemporary prestige TV viewing where we watched it linearly. We bailed because we weren't vibing with it. It is exemplary when viewed when you can binge it and the previous season is now on Netflix. And then we got so into it and became, it both fell so in love with that shows just outrageous batting average. It's the best written show in television. It's so crisp and everything is just in concert with each other. And it's, you know, it's like watching, I know everyone loves it when I make

sports analogies, but it is like watching an offense that's been playing together for years. And they just, every piece of it, from production design to direction to performance, it just anticipates each other's moves and compliments each other. And we loved it so much. are back linear. Like, I will, I will F with the show weekly again. So, there's a lot of stuff. There's, outsider is wrapping up soon. Yeah, and I think ramping up. Yeah, ramping up and ramping

down. And so we have outsider on Sunday, Saul on Sunday. We'll talk about that stuff on Monday, and then we will get back into Briar Patch and some other stuff on the following Thursday. I'm excited about Top Chef too, but I guess only your reality show gets to get talking about. I'll tell you what, man, if you want me to watch Top Chef Allsters, if you watch Survivor, we can trade.

But the thing is, if I have an hour of your time, I'm going to cash in on something else. That's fine. That's fine. We'll work this out offline. So let me just say, by way of introduction to this, I hadn't seen Chris Karaba in, honestly, it's probably nine years since the show he was playing in New York. We've been in touch since then. We've texted. We're on very good terms, obviously, as you can hear. He called into this podcast a couple years ago when we did a sort of Emo special. I've been nothing but a good friend to me and to us in this show. But what a trip it was to see him in person and get a chance to talk about stuff, particularly a lot of our conversation was kind of,

maybe this is a little inside baseball, but we are both older people in the world with lives and families now and looking back on the time I spend with him, not just where I was in my career as like a 24-year-old who was somehow writing a book for the first time or a spin cover story for the first time.

But weirdly, he was always so accessible to me. And we talked about this. We had very clear delineations of private life and public life, which might come as a surprise to people who think that he just gushes in songs. and I always respected that, which I think got me more time with him. But looking back, I mean, I was on tour with him and had access to everything. It was weird how preternaturally confident and calm he was about everything.

And also, I mean, almost famous had been out for two years. Like, we're not supposed to be friendly or trust each other, probably. Right. So a lot of the conversation was about that, also about how he seems to be Benjamin buttoning, and just looks younger than ever and has an incredible beard. now. But also, and I'll say this at the top, he was here to promote his truly, truly awesome best of, his first best of. It's called The Best Ones, the Best Ones. And as we talk about in the interview, it's really cool to hear how he has grown as an artist and songwriter and that the songs

from his last record from a year or two ago at the end of the compilation really sound of a piece with the earlier songs. And, you know, it's exciting that someone who was so much a part of a phenomenon and maybe dismissed by more snobbish people as just being part of a phenomenon. on or emo or whatever it was. He's just a good songwriter, and he's got great songs, and he's out there playing the hell out of them doing full albums, doing all these hits with a full room of now 30 and 40-year-old singing back to him. And I think it was cool.

It's kind of amazing to be able to check back in with someone that was a part of your earlier. For sure, I can't hear to listen to the interview. If you listen to the interview, I'll watch Survivor. Okay. Coming up next is Chris Karava. Thanks for listening. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Zorro.com. If you purchase supplies for a small to mid-sized business, Zorro.com, Zorro.com is your go-to resource. At Zoro, you'll find all the things that keep a business running no matter what kind of business you're in. Zorro offers tools, safety equipment, cleaning, and maintenance supplies, office and shipping, automotive industrial equipment, and more, including these specialty items you can't find anywhere else. Whether you're shopping for an office factory, contracting business, or machine, shop, you can get exactly what you need. And when you shop Zorro, you'll find brands you already

know and trust like 3M Preston, Milwaukee Tool, Schneider Electric, and Proto, all at competitive prices. Want fast-free shipping? It's yours when you spend more than $50. And if you have a question, or return, or need help finding exactly the right item, count on Zoro's customer service team based right here in the U.S. Visit ZO-R-O-com slash watch and sign up for Z-mail to get 15% off your first quarter. That's Zoro.com slash watch to sign up for Z email and get 15% off. Zorro.com, all you need to make your business go. I don't even know how to begin this other than to say, what a thrill to be sitting here after 19 years of knowing each other almost. Yeah. And we'll get into that. And both of us looking like we're still 19. How do you like that? Here's the thing. I was actually

going to introduce my guest as Benjamin Button. Chris Caraba, you look amazing. I grew up beard so that I could look almost my, like half my edge. You're kidding. You look great. Thanks. I feel great. You look great? How do you feel?

I feel okay. You feel okay? Yeah, I don't feel as good as you look, but I think I'm generally okay. We need to stretch. We stretch before we really get into this series. I was doing vocal exercises. Oh, we. We've spent a lot of time talking over the years.

We have. We have. You were kind enough to call into this podcast a couple years ago, but we haven't sat across from each other with recording devices in like 10 years. That's true. Longer. The beauty of it is that when we did it the first time, I got a great friend out of this whole thing.

You know how many people you talk to and you know, I mean, you do this and there's people in and out of your life every day, maybe for a few hours, maybe for a few weeks, whatever it is, the assignment. And it's very rare that you end up just like saying, oh, I got a life for here. I got a lifelong friend. That's so kind of you to say.

And it actually brings me to one of the things I wanted to talk to you about when we get into it. And I think we should get into it, which is about me. No, which is how, looking back at all the time we spent together, and so for people who don't know this, like I was first assigned to write about Chris for Spin Magazine in the fall of 2001. My first real big press opportunity, like seriously respected press opportunity.

And it was for the front of the book section. Like within a year, I was doing a cover story on you. I then wrote a book that was a lot about you and time spent with you. Great book. Plug the book. It's such a good book. It's still out there. Nothing feels good.

Looking back, I had no idea what I was doing. I always thought of you as someone who knew clearly what he was doing, and I mostly don't understand how we got along so well, because in retrospect, the nature of what we were both doing at that moment, where I was being sent to talk to you, and you were on the come-up, and your career was blossoming and blooming, and people were probably trying to take from you all the time.

How did we navigate that and end up mutually respecting and even liking each other? Because you saying that is so kind to me and so generous, and I feel like I never wanted to be antagonistic in any journalistic relationship that I did. Well, that's not your nature. It's not my nature. But even so, we navigated some stuff. And I think it's kind of remarkable to be able to look back on it. Yeah, so I would say if I were to try to describe how that came to be was I think my viewpoint was a little bit flipped from yours.

Where I thought you had everything together. You were professional. This is going to be a great talk already. Like professionally employed. I did have a, I had a job. I didn't really have a job. I sang in a band. That's not really a job.

Right. And it wasn't like this predestined thing where I'd be sitting with you 20 years later. Yeah. It was a moment in time for me. Mm-hmm. And a precarious one, if you really look at it, it's not like job security material. Mm-hmm. And I looked up to you.

I thought like, this is a guy who's right around my age, who's really super focused. And that's something I felt like I had, even though. I thought I was on a more tenuous path. Yeah. Too much chance. Too much improbability in all this. No structure of how you get there. It's just like you get there somehow.

It's there waiting for you somehow. Somehow. Yeah. And I remember in that period where we were getting to know each other. Now, this was on a tour. Well, we'd done interviews together, but when we spent where we really became friends, you came on tour with us. Yeah. And that was, I can do this.

It was when you and the band were opening for... Weezer. It was the Weezer. Yeah, you were opening for Weezer in like amphitheaters throughout the southwest. So, in California. Here's a fantastic moment. 2002. Was it two?

It was two. Yeah. So here's this... That tour is going off to college now. That tour is now 18 years old. And that tour was special in that, like, it was the closest thing that I had to this, like, Give me your foot in my hand. I'm going to give you a booster. Right.

Like Weezer kind of plucked us out like we were doing very well in really, really dingy small places and still some basement shows and still some house shows. Playing to our fans. Plenty nights sleeping on couches. Starting to sell some tickets in like real clubs, but still sleeping on couches and touring in the van, which was actually like this romantic and great time. You really bond in a special way in that time. And then Weezer just decides like, I like what they're doing. Let's give them a shot. And now there was a lot of transitional things happening for me on that tour. For example, being on a bus, you know, it's a dynamic shift for your band in a couple of ways.

Because it feels like a success mile marker to grow into a band that tours on a bus. It's a bit thing. It's a little inside baseball. But it's the truth. It's like, you know, you've got enough momentum behind you and you're making enough buses are expensive. You've suddenly made them enough money where it's more cost effective to be in a bus than a band. It's one of the biggest leaps any band can make and it's one of the least understood. Yes.

I think people, when people think of bands, they think of them either as a fully formed success story with a beautiful bus that, you know, take ferries them to and from gigs or the more scrappy underdog punk version of it. And so we were like holding onto the former but in the latter. And the Weezer guys were social enough, but they were like this giant band. It was a return to form for Weezer at that time. Do you remember they had taken a hiatus? Yeah, and they actually came back and suddenly were bigger. That summer, like coming off the Green album and everything, they were in some ways bigger or at least more prepared to be big than they were in the 90s.

Yeah, for sure, because I saw them when they were big, like in arguably huge, but it was just a club like any other club. And this is, it was the week. Pinkerton came out. So they're still on that crest from the blue album, which was just this massive commercial success. To Pinkerton, which wasn't. To Pinkerton that wasn't, but was, commercially. Which wasn't a commercial success, but would become, I think, a work that's respected in a, in a way that I think, I hope for them is super validating because it's a special piece of music. Absolutely. And here they were inviting you to play with them in every venue called

the Tweeter Center. Yeah, they were all called the Tweeter Center. Everything was Tweeter Center. Are they still Tweeter centers? I feel like that is a different meaning now. change all the time. So many tweeter centers. Yeah, Twitter centers have a different meaning. That's fun. And so I say this to illustrate that we were not exactly sure footed. As we were out there on this tour, we felt like a little bit.

Thankfully, Sparta was out there. And those are our bodies, right? Nice guys. And yeah, Sparta's one half of at the drive-in when they split into factions. And the other half was Beto O'Rourke, I believe. He was the third faction of that band somehow. He was, yeah, for Mars Valta, you know. Thankfully, they were on that.

how I remember that. And they were all, they were like when I, when I talk about Weaser, I make sure to say like they were really gracious. But they were like very, very focused on their work and they had a lot of work to do. So we just wasn't like who we were hanging out with sometimes once in a while. Like I'd play foosball with Rivers. I remember that. Which is still weird, right? You played foosball with me with Rivers. Yeah. I watched you play. I was not invited to the table. Is that was your journalistic integrity? Like I can't actually play. I have to observe. Well, I also think. Don't be part of the story. Wiser made it very clear I was not. not there to interview them. Did they? It was made clear to me. I don't know if they cared. Rivers probably cared. Oh, right, right. But yeah.

It wasn't a bad thing. I was just with you. I was your plus one. So you'll always be my plus one. But I think this all illustrates, like the place we were in, it was all flux. It was all in flux. It was like, I was just kind of open to a new friend that I'd be excited about. And so when you came in, you came in to do your job.

and I was there to do my job as it pertain to this writing. But how lucky, because we sat in that back lounge. And I don't know if the interviews were ever over. That's right. But it didn't really matter. We just kept talking and talking and talking. Some of those talks would make it into your book or make it into the story itself. And some of them wouldn't because it were just ours to keep.

Yeah, that's true. And those were my favorites. There was a line there. They were just special. And having a journalist like come in, embed themselves with us, for that length of time and really kind of become just really part of our inner circle forever. That's, I mean, the closest I can think is Jenny, you know, Jenny Oskue. Who was there for all that time as well.

Yeah, and this is all long-winded for me to say, like in my, you know, infancy of understanding how music journalism and bands work, I was like, oh, I'll be best friends with every writer that I meet. What could go wrong? What could ever go wrong? And it's just, you know, not the case, you know, I really appreciate. appreciate that. And then to watch you go on to do, to rise in the ranks and then switch, bravely switch paths here and there. And I was kind of switching paths here and there. We were kind of losing touch over time and then rekindling our friendship where we could, when we could, as busy as we've gotten. But we have this great basis for a friendship that I think we can't lose.

Well, I appreciate it. That means a lot. And I, it's still, though, and what's one of the things that I've always found noteworthy about you is that during all of the tumult of those years, you know, and they were, and I was thinking about it, we talk about how fast things happen now and things, thanks to the internet, do happen awfully quickly, but it all happened pretty fast, you know, to go from, and I will have said at this point, time travel, I will have introduced you and talked about how we're talking specifically in the shadow of this 20th anniversary collection, the best ones, the best ones, which is well-named and well-chosen, and pretty awesome. You know, to go from starting the band to being on the cover.

of magazines to touring with Weezer, to all of that, to having, you know, and the other thing I wrote about in the book on those Tweeder Center tours, Jimmy Iveen, private jetting in, Jimmy Ivan, headphone magnet now, mobile, but at the time, the mover and shaker in the music business, jetting into your shows, anointing you basically, the next big thing. You were pretty unflappable publicly, you know, and privately as well. You know, I think that we talked very intimately and honestly about things, and you were never withholding, as far as I could tell. But you also were very even keeled. And looking back on it, I don't know how that was possible. I wonder if you look back on it or differently now if you were freaking out inside in a way that you didn't appreciate,

or if there was something else like some sort of, whether it was a North Star or like some sort of home base that you were able to keep one hand on, even when the whole world was spinning out of what appeared to be out of anyone's control. I thought about this. Yeah. I think it's equal parts that this thing that I built, you know, in writing the songs and recording them, was everything was hard scrabble. Not the way successful records are made. True. There were no, necessarily there were no eyes.

There was no pressure at the time. No eyes at all. You were not 18. You were in your 20s. I was in my early 20s and I was collecting, well, it seemed like a wealth of life experience. It wasn't. it was a little myopic because when you're young, that's how it is, right? You cannot know what you don't know.

You can't know what you don't know. And you're less interested in what you don't know. But what I did have, I think, was a depth, maybe a little bit beyond my years, maybe a few steps, about how to decipher these things into these anomalous, overwhelming feelings and funnel them into something useful, music. And that was the BL and end all of it. All that was already done. So the successes or failures couldn't take away the thing that I regarded as the only real metric that I tried to meet or exceed, which was write something really honest, record it fairly well. Getting to work with James Wisner made it sound really great. So then it recorded really well and share it with as many people as I could.

Pretty simple goal. So I didn't lose that focus. like things don't have to be as complicated, even though these moving parts and these big names, like Jimmy's a big name, but his personality's big. It's daunting. You can see that in the defiant ones, you can glean. This guy's like he sees, there's an engine running deep inside him

that's like redlining all the time. And I remember, you know, like he, Chris, you know, you're going to be the greatest of all time. You know, you remind me of, you know, when I first worked with Tom and Bruce. Right? And I think you're going to be the guy, man. You're going to be the guy. And I didn't believe him, but I thought it was fantastic.

You know, to have somebody believe in me like that. Because I knew he was genuine. One thing I can say about Jimmy I mean, he doesn't shine you up unless he really believes. For sure. He will break you down if he doesn't believe in you. And he's done that with me when I've gotten things wrong or feared from the past. You know, I don't work with Jimmy anymore because he doesn't really work in that capacity any longer. But I still consider him a mentor.

Yeah. And if I were to reach out to him, he does reply. You know, he's not so far removed from music that he doesn't love to connect in that way. But Jimmy was the one of all the things that was happening. It was you nailed it. It was Jimmy Ivy and that could have made it where I couldn't let any steam out of the kettle, any more steam out of the kettle. Like I could have just sunk under that pressure, right?

But I had early on just given myself this self-imposed like two-year window that would repeat. Like, if I got to two years and it looked like I could get two more years, I would do it. But if not, I'd go back and teach. Right, you had that, you had that always in your mind. You had that presence. I mean, it was not for show that when I visited you the first time in Florida, we went back to the school. Right. And you were welcomed as if you had not left, because in some ways you hadn't.

I hadn't. No, I'd still go there and volunteer, and I loved it so much. And I thought that would be really fantastic career. It was a really rewarding job. So at worst, I was going to do this other job I love, which is a much more quiet lifestyle. But the loudness of the lifestyle was not the thing I was ever attracted to and still not. Well, I think one of the things that in retrospect feels misunderstood about you in your career was that the songs were always interpreted immediately as like your diaries. Yeah.

And that you were completely translucent. You know, you were sharing absolutely everything, holding nothing back. Also, that's connected to your performance style. One of the things I noted at the time and didn't talk about, of course, because that was something that we had agreed on, was that you did have a very strong firewall between your actual life and your public life. Not emotionally when what you chose to share in songs, but specifically, you know, who you were with, how you were living your life, where you were physically in the world when you weren't on stage. And, you know, I always respected it. And I can confess you now, I didn't understand it at the time. Why not?

partly because I was young and didn't understand the value of any privacy, you know, something that, you know, now that I'm older and have a family, I take very seriously. And also now the way the world is, you know, it's, I find it terrifying, the lack of privacy that we can easily give into and probably are at this moment without even realizing it. But, you know, in retrospect now, I just think that was a remarkably strong choice isn't the word, the remarkably strong belief and way of life, you know, that you imposed early. And I guess the question that I have now, after all these years, is how did you know? Well, I thought that I would stunt my ability to be able to write freely.

If people knew the specificities of maybe who the song was about or how I lived my life or geographically where I lived at a given moment. Do you remember it was a big deal when I said that the hairs that were everywhere were red? I gave that away in a story. And that was huge. And that was specific. That was a detail. It blew up my message boards. It blew up.

It blew up Myspace. MySpace was a friendster. All the Zango blogs were just like, anyway. But yeah, that was a revealing. And it was true. Yeah. Can confirm 20 years later. Can confirm.

Nice reference. It was important to me. Because as all things, there's dualities in the reason. right. And one was that I knew that I couldn't, I didn't think, I didn't believe that I could write freely about the things I needed to write about. If I thought, if you knew the person I was writing about, you perceive it as I was maybe taking a person down.

But I think of a song, like I'll just talk about a song from it because it was on my mind the other night. There is a song called, They Gonna Go Unnoticed of Mine. On this collection? It's on this collection. And in this song, I can see how the listener can see that it's a song. me singing specifically about kind of being walled off from the person I'm with that I care about so much as she is moving on before I'm ready.

Sure. But I'd started writing that about knowing that she felt I was doing that. And then kind of intermingling it with me feeling like, oh, started to realize, like, in the writing of it, like, no, we're both doing this. So it's like I was just as much to, if there's blame in that song. I don't think there's blame in that song. But if you were to say that there's like a protagonist and an antagonist in that song, I don't think it's true.

I just did it in a way that was obscured. It was always me delivering the song. It became my point of view. But it really wasn't. It was this shared point of view, I think. It was me trying to get inside her head and understand how she felt with this thing maybe going away, our relationship. And I kind of believe, like if people knew. who that other person was and who she and

or even where she was and where I was, like physically in the world, that maybe they could only think about that person. Instead of making it about their own lives, as a listener, when I listen to the, I always choose the cure and build a spill for this because they write these songs that have to be, probably, about their own life experience.

How could it not be? But when I listen to them, I only hear it as my life experience. Yes, there's a universality and there's an openness, right? They're not closed off with the specifics of the person, the detail. They leave you out of it. And that's a fine line with specifics and details. You have to be careful like that, I would assume. I know I have to. Well, I think not just in terms of giving things away, but I do think specificity is a key to art. Oh, you must have it. You must have it or else it could be about anything. But you can't limit yourself by locking into one point of view, one moment, one hair follicle, or else what is the way in for the audience? And you want it to be expanded. if you wanted to be welcoming.

So in those examples, like, I don't, I don't know specifically what Robert Smith's life details were at that time. I think the same. I think he's living in a haunted mansion with his wife of 50 years. I have to believe so, but he's probably in, like, the most colorful house in the world. You know, we never know. You know, and Martian built a spill were equally mysterious to me. And that aided me in letting these songs be about who I was and what I was going through.

I was attracted to that. And so subliminally, I think that was a little like roadmap. I think that R.E.M. was like that too. Like, I didn't know anything. Total mystery. I didn't know what he was singing. Yeah, didn't know what he was singing. No.

Sometimes he wasn't singing words. I think that there's something to what you're saying that is absolutely true. And it really is borne out by this collection because listening to these songs now, you know, they feel very wide open still. They feel very, and yes, they feel nostalgic now for me in a different way than they might have felt to someone who is 14 or to you writing them. But they still feel open and alive, I think, because you never closed them off, you know. And I think that's kind of a remarkable thing to be able to revisit.

And, you know, just to make a blanket statement about the collection, to hear the new songs, newer songs from the record you put out two years ago, same guy. You know, I think it's the same voice. The voice has changed. And I mean that metaphorically, obviously your perspective and your own life has changed. But they all hang together in a way that is really remarkable. considering the hard scrabble and young version of you that wrote the songs that start the collection. Well, I guess life doesn't exactly get easier. See, here's the thing that you discover, you hope for something else when you're younger.

But as it turns out, is that life gets better and better. But it never gets easier, does it? No, it gets differently harder. Yes. And I think harder in a more tactile way, because your challenges are more concrete. Yeah. and you have to deal with them, and they are not this sort of collection of gaseous worry and anxiety and projection

that is the worry in the life of a relatively stable and privileged young person like we were at the time. Once you take away major concerns, because we had housing, I slept in the back of that tour bus, for example, what are you worried about other than the future? You don't know. You don't know. And what are you worried about now other than the future, right?

But it's the future for different things. Exactly. Although, you know, this was striking, I was listening to the collection this morning on the way here again and realizing how many lines, and of course I didn't notice this at the time. I knew every word, but I didn't think about it. In songs like Swiss Army romance from your first record, you're talking about how fleeting life is and youth is, not life, but I guess that's the same thing. What does a 23 or 4-year-old know about that? And then now I listen to it and I'm like, boy, that guy was right. You know, maybe there's an old soul factor. Some of it may possibly be that, like, I think I've had like a disproportionate amount of, like, tragic events in my life. Like real tragedy. For sure.

Losing young family members or friends way too soon. There's no question that, you know, that when we met and the things that we talked about, that you had experienced things that had affected you and you had already rebuilt yourself in a relationship to them in a way that I don't know if a lot of young people have had to do. So I kept a hard lid on that. And I guess I still keep a hard lid on that. But my, I was no charmed life. It was a very difficult youth and young adult era. And I didn't want that to be the story. But it did inform the songs.

I so didn't want that to be the story that I, I think that might have been the biggest impetus for me to be so private. I wanted to be able to explore so it would help me through these very hard things I had experienced as a young man and would experience more of unfortunately you know first of all

like I lost a cousin it was devastating to me as a young person as a teenager you feel in all things like no one has ever felt the way you feel about this whatever this is before ever right

you just paraphrased yourself did I no one could ever feel the way that I feel now Oh, yeah. It's a pretty good line. Yeah, not bad. You realize, as time goes by, that the power is yours to shape wonderful or difficult things in a healthy way in the way that they affect you and who you're going to be. But I didn't realize how. I just knew that it could be done. It's pouring it all into songs because I had just discovered that this is overused word for my music, my overused word for my music, but it was cathartic. And it was deeply needed for me to move on, to frankly to live. You know, I've been thinking about this, like the path I was on, the one laid out in front of me, I wouldn't be here with you. And I'm not entirely sure I'd be here at all. Yeah.

You know, I didn't fall into the drug trap that a lot of my friends did in disproportionate. And a number of those are dead from drugs. I didn't fall into an aimlessness with some of my other friends did. And some of my other friends did phenomenally well. It's just that's how it is when you're young. You meet all these people with all this potential. And you're all at the starting line together. Yeah.

And we're all equal with this potential. and just some of it, it manifests itself in a healthy way, that energy, or maybe it's unhealthy. But that energy is so interesting because I think that was the other most misunderstood thing about you and also about the larger genre that I was writing about and that you got lumped into, was this idea of catharsis versus wallowing. Right. Right. And, you know, this was a very active engagement for you.

And I, you know, we talked, this is pre-therapy for me. And I imagine for a lot of younger people, like, this was not something that I did. this is not something that I understood or it's something I respected but like the same way I would have respected like mountain climbing like that's impressive yeah it is you know

I guess you have to buy certain tools and have a lot of muscles to do that and I'll stay down here better write a song but right but you were running right at these things and engaging with them rather than you know you weren't hiding from the intensity of the emotions

well I didn't know anybody would be listening so that helped right and then in a regards to what you said about how it was misunderstood. Like, I love Emo. Yeah. And I love being a part of that.

It's not a four-letter word to me at all. Yeah. I mean, I will say... Well, it's three. Are you sure? Yeah. Well, you're the writer. Not the way I spell it.

There was a period, I think, where things became a little bit derivative. Wasn't my favorite era. But I probably wasn't the favorite era to the people that came before me. Or maybe some that came after me. You know, not everything's for everybody. And some of the stuff that came a little, like, later in the emo evolution of emo was just, it just wasn't for me. I wasn't like railing against it.

I had no opinion like, this is terrible, this is good. It just wasn't for me. And that's enough. And I felt like a little bit like, okay, this isn't my thing anymore. And that was a one period where you were to ask me if we made, if our music was email, I would have said no. Sure. Because I thought that the definition now applied to somebody else.

Well, also it felt very externalized because, you know, we would talk and we would talk about punk bands you were referencing. There were punk bands that had previously been labeled emo that you were referencing, but you were also talking about Bill to Spill and REM and Bruce Springsteen and things that, you know, were placed in a completely different bin culturally back when I think we fought about that stuff a lot more than we do now. Yeah. And I also felt just, and I'll say that I've come back to saying like there were different

emoes. And my version of me and the peers that I, like, our, our, right. Your class, yeah. It's special to me and is effective to me. It affects me, you know, like when I listen to those bands. But when I was first called, so I guess there was actually two times where I maybe like pushed back on the emo phrase. It was just in the very beginning when I felt it was disrespectful to. Well, it was dismissive or at least that was being delivered.

This is before. Oh, when it was dismissed to, like, email was like anything else. Yeah. wouldn't be like anything else, you know, like hipster is like a derogatory term. Yeah. But it wasn't when it came. I was just like, oh, this is kind of like. A kind of von Dutch hat.

Yeah. Yeah. Talk about dating ourselves. These folks have a thing in it. They're identifying with it and it's a scene. Awesome. And this term makes me understand with a broad stroke what's going on there. And that's all EMA was to me.

But I was very, you know, I really held the progenitors of that scene in high. regard, specifically Texas at the reasons Sunny Day real estate promise ring, American football, cap and jazz even, you know, like bands that were on the bubble like, what is this band? I don't even know if this band, but, you know, like, lyrically, there was something there that would make me feel something deeply. And it just seemed like, well, that's like we're appropriating somebody's turn. But then when I got over that and realized, okay, it can be this moment's emo. And I felt pretty good about that. And then strangely, Dan from Sunny Day was suddenly in our band.

Yes. And there was a little validating in order to feel good about the word. Now, I feel great about that word. I'm really proud of what we build with our fans and this thing that we share. And I use it without any caveat or asterisk. I feel very good about it. There was a moment. And, you know, obviously the album is represented on the collection.

But I think the time we probably were spending the most time together was between places and a mark a mission and sort of build up to that record. And the cover story was about that record. And that was the record where I visited you. And, you know, we were still writing songs. And, yeah, we were even like really in the thick, the muck and the mire of like, what do we do here? Like, we suddenly have like, there's going to be a budget. Yes. And we could have a real producer and who should it be.

And everybody had opinions. Like the whole bandmate had opinions. and we were trying to like learn how to communicate within a band all with their own like excitement for what could be for the record. Because it could be, it could be anything. It could have been anything. It had to be something, which is a very strange, precarious place. And it's a place a lot of artists in any field, crumbull is an unfair word, but buckle. And why wouldn't they?

And I remember, I mean, you're saying this, it's jogging my memory of a time after a show here, I think on that Weezer tour, like in Irvine. or something when Gil Norton came to meet with you about being a producer because you were at that stage where you could look at your favorite records like a takeout menu. Yes. And be like, well, I love what he did with the Pixies. Yeah.

Maybe he's the guy, you know. And that's heady and wild. And yet I'm listening to the collection. And one of my favorite songs of your entire catalogs on there, ghost of a good thing. And it's such a beautiful and confident song. And that's what I'm really struck by again.

And I'm sorry if I keep trying to sort of chip away at the thing that in retrospect I admired the most about the way you presented yourself at the time. But listening to it now, it sounds like someone who is ready for the opportunity because it's not a stadium banger. No. You know, you're not, it's not a radio play. It's a confident piece of songwriting from someone who is a songwriter. You know what I mean?

And it's aged very well because of it. And I was glad to see it on the collection. But again, there clearly was something. And if it's the same answers you gave before, we can do. go back to it and I got a few others. But like, something allowed you to stay the course and be true to that, even during what, and again, if I'm mischaracterizing the time, but in my thoughts about it, my memory, that was kind of the craziest maelstrom. The debate of... Not just producer, but like preparing for the record that was going to be the record.

You know what I mean? Yes. Like you had done the things outside of everyone's notice. You had gotten the notice and how all eyes were on it. Andy, it's funny that you pick out Gustav a good thing because we went through the debate about who should produce it for specific reasons of like what we envisioned the record could be. We met with people whose records had moved us, people who made records that just really moved us. I think we had different, we, the bandmates, the four of us, had different parameters for what we were looking for in a producer. I think Mike was looking for someone that would be able to capture.

Someone who could mic the drums really well. Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I think that as a drummer, he knew that that was an important factor in the record. Sure. And he is so right. But it doesn't hold the same weight for me in decision making as who will get the feeling across. Yeah.

No matter what. Even if we only had one mic in the whole building. who can get that feeling across if there was only one mic. Yeah, because I've heard plenty and we both have, I'm sure, heard many artists whom we admire hiding

inside their new album. Yeah, inside this grand production. Yeah, or whatever is put on top of them. And I was wary of that. I was worried. Not hiding, getting lost. Hiding suggests they were trying to hide. Right, that's a good point.

Yeah. Mike was right. Everybody was right. There's a part of me that wishes has some longing to go back and be like, well, maybe if we've gone, Mike wanted to work with Jack Joseph Puig,

we would do stuff with the future. It was this great, incredible experience. He's a genius. I wanted to work with Gil, but I didn't want Mike to feel bad about working with Gil. And if we ended up with Jack, I didn't want to feel bad going working in with Jack. So we just had these long conversations

where we were trying to be really civil, because I'd learned in my last band, that in your passion, you can debate and understand, and disagree, but understand somebody's, reasoning unless you get bullheaded. And so we tried to be, I don't know how good we were at this

because we were still young, but we just were trying to be democratic, you know. And it was difficult for me because I felt like of all the people in the conversation, I think I actually knew, like in my heart, more than other people knew in their heart by a minor degree. And I just decided I better trust that.

And of course, they did look, I mean, it's not like we went to somebody who'd never made it. We went to Gil Norton, you know, who made Pixies records and made color in the shape for the two fighters, which I thought was this grand record. And recovering the satellites by Counting Cross, so there's three very different records that have this rawness and this power and this, this honesty. And that defined those bands in a lot of ways. Yes, they absolutely did. And I wanted our band to be defined.

I hadn't realized it already had been. so if I'd waited a little while I could have maybe maybe I would have made a different decision but I made the decision I'd love it love Gil still love Gil but now I'm going to loop all the way back to Ghost of a Good Thing so we we made the record with Gil and it was still hard scrabble like our budget was still like rock bottom even though now we were going to be on this major label was still a rock bottom budget where like we were in a studio where like me being the skinniest guy, I'm the one being shoved behind the desk, the console

to plug stuff in. It hasn't been plugged in 10 years. The place had been closed for 10 years. They'd like just open it up because we couldn't afford the place next door, which was the hit factory. And you were in the cult hit factory that was next door.

It was, I don't know that any hits were ever made in that including for us. I'm maybe hands down. That's not a hit but it moved the cultural, you know. That's been our lot in life. Like, we've never had a hit hit. But we've had songs that remove the cultural needle, and I'll take that. Which is something that I think in some ways matters more and is appreciated more later, you know.

But ghost of a good thing makes the record, and we recorded it with Gil. And this is where Gil comes in as like, oh, I picked the right guy. He petitioned incredibly hard and won that it should be my four-track recording. Yes, which I had on a CDR. You gave me that, and am I missing? Yeah. One other thing, I remember. From my little task scam.

That you were recording out on that porch at your mom's house. Was it your mom's house or your place? It was my little apartment, and it was my laundry room, which was in the patio. The patio area, glassed in patio, and it was like a terrible place to record, all tile and glass. And you can, I won't say where, but you can, it didn't even occur to me because who would think this would be on a record, but you can hear my shoes in the dryer somewhere on that song. Two comments. One, that's incredible.

that you say that because not to turn this camera around, but in the pilot of Briar Patch, the show I just made, we needed a sound, like an otherworldly sound for something that happens at the end of the pilot. And the sound designers were sending me stuff and the editors were sending me stuff. And I said, no, no, I know what it is. I know what it is. Let me just think for a minute. Pause. And I said, it's a shoe and a dryer. Oh, amazing. And that's the sound. And that's now the sound of like my little company card is because that's my favorite sound. And it was like this haunting. But anyway, I also have to say, selfishly, again, that sitting on that patio with you after we went to like guitar center and bought synthesizers and drum machine,

the song that we did together, I was pretty surprised it wasn't on your best of. You know, I assume you're saving it for like... Volume 2. Well, the career, like, you know, like the box set? Yeah, when it's all over. It's going to be the first track. Okay, good.

I assume you still have it in a treasured. Of course I have it. Okay, good. We had fun that day making music, right? Yeah, I contributed nothing but enthusiasm, which, you know, that's all you need for a punk band, I guess. That's definitely all you need for a punk band. Because I had, I can confirm I had nothing else.

That's a good song. Sad robot heart. Yep. I'll still ride for it. Anyway. What a ridiculous name for it? It's so perfect because all it was was like blips and clicks and robot noises. Because that was also, again, like this is something that in retrospect just seems so wonderful.

And it was at the time too, but it seems more rare now in retrospect, which was at this time of high pressure, at this time of, you know, even though we knew each other and got along, it's a cover story, blah, blah, blah. You were like, eff it, let's go to guitar. Center and learn how to do something and make something. And so that ethos was still present in a great way. But now we definitely have to finish the ghost of a good thing. You put that four track recording on the record. Yeah, and that's so a credit to Gill. So if I had to show somebody else, maybe they would have said, yeah, it's not good enough. Like sonically, it's not good enough. It's done poorly. It's recorded poorly with inferior equipment. But it was pure. But it was pure. It was the feeling that he, and I think we, I think we, we, we did track it.

But it was like one take. And he was like, nope. This is not going to be the thing. Yeah. We're just leaving it to that. And I was like, that can't be. I couldn't comprehend that. And I was pushed back hard, and I kept at it. He just stood his ground.

It's going to be this version. And it still is. And it is? So not to hit the fast forward button too much, but I don't want to take up too much of your time. You know, after alter the ending in 2009, you know, you were on a pretty traditional two, three-year record, two-three-year pace for records and obviously touring and everything else.

you took a break from the moniker. You didn't stop making music, obviously, but you did take a break from Dashboard. And then came back. And, you know, I was really excited to see from a distance. Artists, Diverses, Taylor Swift and Julian Baker, talking up your songs, talking about the role of your songs played in their life.

And, you know, that must have been... Obviously, this entire conversation is suffused with surreal. because of the experiences that you got to have. I have no question other than the tripe, how did that feel for you and how did that influence or ignite the decision to come back? Not that you left, but to make a new record under the moniker to be performing whole albums the way you are now.

I felt compelled the entirety of the time that we took off to make music again as dashboard. But I needed it to be, I needed to be in a place that we were, was that was honest and true. And I think that the, my waning years with Jimmy, I lost the plot a little bit.

Really specifically in Alter the Ending. See, Jimmy and his people, his team, they're incredible. I mean, the people that he had around me, you're like, like Luke Wood, who was instrumental in Elliot Smith's career, I have huge respect for Luke. I have his record as Sammy.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember I met him at a Jimmy World Show, and I was like, I love that Sammy record. And then he went on to A&R and DreamWorks and... Yeah, and then I think he said Apple now, too. You know, it's just wild. And others, you know, Jimmy, you know, they all kind of pushed me a little bit to find some more universality in my lyrics, which either they said outright or I just maybe... And maybe it was wrong, but I discerned it to be that it had to be less personal, less first person.

And the fans have really like made me love alter the ending somehow. But I didn't love it at the time. Like, you know, in the moment you're like so in it. You think, oh, they're saying it's good. Okay, I think I've done it. I think I've done what I think it's a good way. It's hard not to listen to other voices in those moments. And especially if you're just like really want to get better.

There's only so many ways you can get better. You keep trying hard, keep trying hard. If you don't listen to anybody, you're never going to get better. Like, I listen to my guitar player because he's better than me. And then I glean the fluidity that he's playing with, and some of it seeps into my playing. Just a small example. These are more direct directives. It's hard to be redundant.

But to change some of these lyrics outright to be completely different or to change the eyes to use, I felt removed. I felt like pushed out of my own song. Yeah. It's so interesting to hear that because going back to the point of all I had to bring was enthusiasm in a punk rock ethos.

At the time, you know, and this is 24 years old writing about music, talking to you, talking to other people, talent, quote unquote, true talent or gifts or skill, not talent is no word skill, which is different, I think, and it's something you can work on and get better at, is ephemeral, I think.

And you can't really. really understand it. Partly, I'll say, use eye statements because maybe at 24, I didn't want to work very hard. I wanted to, like, write about music, I love music, and there you go. And the idea that I would have to get better at writing or better at talking to people is separate. So in retrospect, to look back and say, well, one of the reasons that your

song is because you're a good songwriter. There are many other reasons, too. The moment, the context, how you are, you know, that moment of the internet spreading underground music to everyone who still wanted physical experiences before we graduated to the dystopia that we're all in today.

All of that conspired to be part of it, right? But you're also a good songwriter. And I think about it too, looking back on like, you know, our friends in my chemical romance. I'm like, well, Jar's a good songwriter and he's a good singer. Like, of course. Sometimes it's not that complicated. Anyway, all of this is to say, alter the ending,

which I think is a really good record. It's a songwriter record, you know? And it's interesting to hear you even use the word exercise now in retrospect because you were using that muscle and developing that muscle. But there's a particular spark that makes a dashboard that you had to reconnect with. Yeah. And I'd lost it. Yeah.

And that's when I said it's time to, we did some touring after that, of course. Now, my touring career has always been built on, or my career has always been built on touring. This extensive, long tours of many, many dates throughout the year, more than the average, for sure. And I think we were beat up a little bit from making that record. And then we were beat up from the tours. And we're beat up from the many years of touring up to that point. And I remember, like, having a discussion, you know, I believe it was me and Johnny. And it was like, we aren't burnt out yet, but it's coming.

You could feel it. And in having no hits on the radio, you know, like inarguable hits that will be played in supermarkets 20 years from now, we don't have that. And that's okay. Because what we got was great also. You're like it's another thing. I would argue that it's something I enjoy better. It isn't better because by the metric of like, well, this is a more successful song, obviously, that's better. But for my personal...

The supermarket royalties are no joke. Yeah, they're no joke, man. You get the produce aisle? Oh, my God. That's the grass-waring produce aisle. You're eating for life. Shoo! And you're not just eating vegetables.

No, man. Whatever. You could have the world is your oyster. You could even get oysters. So we know that what we do have is this tacit agreement with our audience that we will deliver with full-hearted honesty and commitment and energy. You can't do that when you're burnt down. And so I thought, if they see us trying to do it, I suppose it just being in it. It's over.

And I said, we can't do that. We have to just like step away and we'll come back. If it's, if it'll be a one and done, that'll be our last tour ever. The audience will go, that was a beautiful ride. Yeah. And it's over now. It's fascinating to talk to you about this because I think, again, this is all in hindsight and retrospect, but it seems like the most challenging relationship with maybe all artists,

but I think from my vantage point, pop artists, popular music, you know, whatever we want to call it, is the relationship between the artist and his or her. her own image or career. You know, I think it takes a lot of perspective and humility to not just know or acknowledge something that makes you or he or she in this case special, but to have an active relationship with it and respect it. You know what I mean? So when you're talking about understanding that a certain level of intensity, a certain

level of personal emotion, a certain connection with the audience, those aren't the chains that are binding you from other parts. of happiness in your life, that kind of defines this. And you also have other things, you know, whether it's other bands, other songwriting, or life and family and hobbies like mountain climbing. I mean, very modest about. But, but, you know what I mean? But embracing that and understanding it and not running from it. And, you know, it's right there on the title of the record we're talking about that it's a mark and a mission, a brand, and a scar all at once. But it all seems like a very healthy perspective, basically, because I think that during the years

when you were the, oh, he's the guy who bears his heart and everyone sings along with him. I mean, I've never been that guy or even on that level of it, but I can already feel hackles rising. Like, don't put me in a box, man. Like, I'm not that. I'm a lot of other things too. And yet you seem to find joy in it and have a healthy relationship with it. I enjoy. I enjoy it. I respect that audience. Who my to say, they're wrong. I'm lucky to be the person who, whose songs they want to listen to when they need to feel something, whatever that something is. Coming back was glorious because we had it again. We had this intense connection with each song, with the audience,

with what each song could be now, which is a very different thing from what it was then. Although sometimes every now and again, it's like a guitar machine. Yeah. And it's the thing you wrote about. It's red hair, you know. And is it everywhere? Yeah, all the time. Well, I don't know anymore.

Yeah, to be quite honest. I can only imagine. Yeah. And at a certain point, it'll be gray hair. Yeah. But I think it's important now to understand that I, there's two different things that I love, making records and touring. And I know you have to do one to do the other. But there's a point in the future where I think that people won't really need new songs for me.

They'll have so many that means something to them that there's almost like no room to get to them. And I'll still have to make that stuff. I'll have to make new music. And it's kind of analogous to if I were still a teacher, I would be just, I would be up late at night writing songs and recording them in my laundry room. So it's a different position in life, but it's still kind of the same mindset. Also, you know, extending the metaphor, if you were a teacher, you would be growing and changing and the students would be evolving over time, of course, in the era, but the lessons would still be the same that you have to teach, right? That's right. And you'd have to get up and go to class and teach someone.

I'm going to riff on pretending you were a math teacher, but I certainly was not a math teacher. But I just thought, you know, in the fullness of time, maybe, you know, the two plus two is still four. Yeah. Of only. But again, I think that's an interesting distinction. I think it's the kind of thing that is very healthy both for a human in the world, but also for a career in a field that in some ways has only grown more precarious, right? I mean, you were talking about 20 years ago being so uncertain, and I had a real job because, you know, magazines, that was a rock-solid place to work. Music magazines especially.

But what was interesting about your moments, and this is a moment that I think extended right up to like Fall Out Boy and MCR and then kind of. kind of fell off a cliff was there was a system. There was an industry. There was a machinery. And it was old, creaky machinery, as we now realize. But it was there to be availed of, right? Like even certain things that, you know, now seem like exciting outliers, but like getting the single on the Spider-Man 2 soundtrack. Yeah.

Those are words that when it happened, it would be hard to imagine more impactful words strung together in a sentence, right? Especially for me. Yeah. I mean, just that's so exciting. If you know me and you do, you know that I'm like a real comic book nerd. That was amazing. It was an amazing thing. But now the idea of like, oh, well, the next step in this extending staircase is a single on a movie soundtrack and the video will permeate.

I mean, just all the language we use is gone. It's even more. All this was to say that it's what a confusing industry it is now and probably more so than at any point. It's all moving targets. And so all you can do is play and play and play in front of it. people until you find your people. Until you find the people that need you. And you realize how much you need them.

I mean, I know there's people that have like hundreds of millions of plays on streaming services that probably couldn't sell out a coffee shop. And then conversely, there's bands that have 100,000 that are just crushing. And that's because the paradigm shift has been grand, but those artists that have a longing and need to connect, more so than just write a great song, which I respect, but just a need to connect. If they get lucky and they find that,

I think that's kind of like better than a gold record. It's more sustaining, I think. We should wrap up in a moment, but I did want to ask who at this moment who do you hear yourself in? And I realize I'm framing it in a very presumptuous way. You can rephrase that any way you want because I know knowing you, you're not going to say, oh, this person's clearly influenced by my masterworks.

Well, I can say a lead with people who've said so. So I know about that. You know, Taylor Swift has been pretty vocal about it. And Casey, I'm in the country music Hall of Fame right now as on a wall for Casey Musgraves' biggest influences, which is just very surreal. me is lovely as incredible as Casey as and she's my home girl but but still like she put me up on that wall yeah and and Julian has you know as you said is kind of put my name up there as as somebody that's been important to her I think Phoebe Bridgers as well she's in Phoebe which

is just like it's all it's all really incredible it's a really incredible feeling to know this and then I was with Dave from gang of youths and and and I wouldn't have heard it until we talked at length. You know, we've become very good friends, but, and he explained to me how big my influence was on him. Without, you know, like blowing me up,

just like very casually. And now I can hear it in the songs. And all it is, is like we like to pull from the same palette of color. And then, you know, Maddie from 1975 has been just absolutely, like he'll come to my smallest show and play with me.

Wow. You know, and this guy's a superstar. But he loves what he loves. And he's really vocal. about it. So it's surprising. It's surprising to see that it's, like, I just named several different genres. And this is what I love about it. And that's the part that really blows my mind. Yeah. Because I think I do something narrow. Like it's, it's, it's my lane. So how it's affected people in these very different lanes, disparate from each other, too. I think it's so important, and I can

imagine it must be validating in a way that you aren't, you know, aren't even comfortable saying, because when you're in a moment, and, you know, and you've talked with great, even just now with me, You've talked with great perspective on the moment that you were cast into in a part of. You can be dismissed as part of a moment too, you know? And we talked about this in many interviews, how sometimes what you were doing wasn't cool, you know? And it was, but being young and having big, big, big feelings is inherently not cool. No. And coolness is death, you know, in everything and chasing it certainly above everything else.

And I find it gratifying just as a fan and as someone who's known you for a long time that the people who you named, people who are making music now are younger than us and found something that inspired them when they weren't cool. And stay true to that. And guess what?

Stay in school kids. That's the coolest thing of all. I just realized I was steering dangerously close to PSA territory and we don't need to do that. But it's noteworthy. It's just really neat to be able to track that. I wouldn't have expected this when we were first getting to know each other, but it's pretty incredible.

Because they're chasing their own muses and they're doing very, very different things. Oh, yeah, and they've moved beyond the things, the way that I influenced them, they've moved beyond it. And now influence me. Yeah, well, that's a beautiful thing. We should probably end there. I mean, we just ended on the circle of life. That's it. What more do you want?

How great to talk to you again? That's the best. So should we plug anything else? How long are you going to be touring this record and? I don't know. Yeah, probably. Chris is coming to your town, one way or another. Every day.

Thanks, buddy. Thank you. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Zorro.com shopping for a business. You'll find supplies that you need at Zorro.com. That's Zorro.com. At Zorro, you can get tools, safety and office items, cleaning supplies, and more just in one stop. And Zorro has great brands like Milwaukee Tool, Prestone 3M, and Proto. Visit Zorro.com, Zorro.com, Zorro.com, slash watch.

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