The Watch - What the Emmys Can Tell Us About the State of TV. Plus, ‘Monsieur Spade’ With Clive Owen.

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the delayed 2023 Emmys that were held this week and what the sweep of awards by shows like ‘The Bear,’ ‘Beef,’ and ‘Succession’ says about the state of the TV industry (1:00). Then they break down the first episode of ‘Monsieur Spade’ (30:12) before being joined by the lead, Clive Owen, to talk about his decision to take on the iconic detective character Sam Spade (50:46). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Clive Owen Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? The finalees of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us,

the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Rye, and I, I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. Thank God we speak fluent French. Sandy Greenwald! Look at you stacking refs. Yeah, man. Greenwald, great to see you.

Great to see Kaya here on a Thursday. Today we are going to be talking about the television show Mr. Spade on AMC. We are also going to be joined by the star of that television show. A little up-and-coming actor named Clive Owen. Awesome. We were thrilled to be joined by Clive for a conversation about this series, about his career.

So really, really kind of a little bucket list item. I mean, like, for the pod, maybe not for life. No, I mean, I feel like, because the first time Clive was on the pod, it was just me talking to him. So I feel like it was great that you got a... It was your pod. It was not Hollywood perspectives. It was great that you got a bucket too.

That's what I'm saying. Everybody here gets a bucket. A little admin before we get started. Okay, so today, obviously, Monsieur Spey, we're going to talk a little bit about ripple effects of the Emmys, I think. And the Emmys. The Emmys. On Sunday night, our True Detective episode

to season four, or Night Country, episode two recap episode will go out. On Thursday. One week from today. One week for today. We are going to be talking about both Fargo and the Curse together in a sort of unified, thematic way,

TBD, to be determined later. I feel like you deed it. I think I've determined it, but we'll see. It's a very interesting moment in television. We're going to get into that on that Thursday show. I do want to say, I don't think I have ever received more unprompted texts about an hour of television, at least in the last five or ten years, than I have about the curse finale. Just people from all walks of life, personal, professional people who listen to the pod who don't. Yeah.

Who just really have thoughts. You got a lot of people in your life that don't listen to this pod? I would say most people in my life. Like the close circle. Like your mechanic? You know, I have an electric car, so really what I have is a technician. Yeah, you get an electrician. No, I feel like the closest people in my life, you know, we've discussed this.

They subscribe to Andy Plus. They can, like just ask me what I think about shows. But then there's the diehards, like, you know, Tim Simons and Mallory Rubin who listen to the show. Yeah. Well, for my mechanic, he basically looks like Sam Shepard. I bring him, I bring in my car. Incredibly handsome and hot. We both light up darts.

Do you roll up your sleeves? We look under the hood. And we're like, could be a spark plug. Could be. I was like, why don't you just fill her up? We'll see how it runs. Fill the engine, like flood the engine with gasoline. Chris, wait, if you opened the hood, before we get into the show, if you opened the hood of an automobile, let me call a gas automobile.

Yes. Like, what you drive. Can you do anything other than sort of stand and sort of look as if you know? Like, can you point out things? Do you have any working knowledge of the inside of the car? I know where the battery is. Yeah, I know where the battery is. I can do the gestures that Adam Driver does in Ferrari when he's explaining how air and water and gasoline and stuff create energy.

Yeah. But other than that, no. It would be incredible if you rolled up into the auto body shop. But this is what they took from us. They took away, A, our ability to learn these things. This is who the woke mob? And then they also made it so that we have to get cars every few years, you know, because we can't fix them. Who's they?

You know who. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. You know who. So wait, so you think they took that from us? Yeah, I think you and I right now, we would be in the prime of our car fixing lives. If we would roll up sleeves, light up a sig and just stare down.

Have a 10.45 a.m. Budweiser as we maybe took the restrictor plate. All I'm thinking about is the episode of Mad Men where like Don's in the garage with his little beer fridge. And then the next thing you know, he's just like out in the world. And then he comes back with a dog and misses this kid's birthday. That's what they took from us. That's what they took from us. I have a couple more admin notes. Oh, okay.

I apologize. Let's get back to admin. Thanks. You have a new podcast. Oh, thank you, yes. It's called Stick the Landing. It's on the Prestige TV feed. Your first episode went up.

It's about Friday night lights. Do you want to tell people a little bit about the show in case somehow they don't know? Yes, I'm, this was, you know. Because you've kind of, you've replaced Justin Sales' pod as the preview that's ahead of every single regular podcast, the trailer. That's terrifying. But luckily, I'm in good hands, Kaya, cut it up real nice. It's just like every time I'm trying to find out about Caleb Williams versus Drake May, it's like, did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke?

Oof. See, because I feel that deeply because whenever I listen to a podcast, I just hear John Jostremski being like, gambling. Every single time. And, you know. Has it worked? I promise you it hasn't. So I'd like to apologize to everyone listening to the Ringer podcast network. Yeah, this is what I did during my summer strikeation, but I'm still doing it.

This is a fun podcast where we investigate the finalees of significant TV shows and talk about them through the lens of how we watched them at the time, what they meant in their moment, but also maybe looking back and seeing whether our first emotional response was correct, how things of age, and also maybe what we can learn about where TV is going now from watching them. And had a great time doing Friday Night Lights as our first episode with Mallory Rubin. Peter Berg approved, just learned. Yeah. That's very nice. That's great. And this coming week, we've got... Does Pete Berg know how I feel about lone survivor?

I've never gotten a sort of pat on the back about that. He's been texting me about that all morning, and it's getting a little weird. Okay. He does have strong feelings about the gambling show, the Ringer's Gambling show. I believe, just probably from his persona, he's all in. Coming up this week, we've got... We're going to find out if Don Draper bought the World of Coke. Okay, good.

Coming up this week is Mad Men. With Fenrock, right? With Sean Fenrock Fantasy, the host of the podcast that has all of our best guests. The big picture. Yeah. Which was really fun to do.

And this was one that was particularly interesting to me because infamously, I didn't like the finale at the time. So it's good. Again, you know me. I'm nothing if not accountable. As the guy who told everyone that Barbie was going to kill Greta Gerwig's career,

I am okay sitting across from you and admitting when I'm marginally wrong. the trailer. Career killer. Yeah, hated that trailer. Yeah. There'll be no little women too. See, so that's been fun.

Okay, great. I am probably going to appear on Stick the Landing. I am trying to book you. You are elusive. Last bit of it, admin, is that you and I did the rewatchables. That's right. We haven't done it in a long time. We did it with our buddy, Zach Barron,

about Silver Linings Playbook. It was released just moments after the Eagles were ejected from planet Earth by Baker Mayfield and Tampa Bay Box. Which happened about 41 minutes after I ejected myself from the sports bar where I was sitting with you. Do you want to talk about it? No. Okay? So

that is up. That was recorded like the week prior, but as Bill mentions, accurate timing. That was diabolical. I had fun doing that with you. I had fun. I had fun doing it with you guys too. It was just like Machiavellian.

It was really cruel. I feel like Philadelphia sports fandom for us is starting to become a little like this is my coin collection and I don't want to show anybody. It's like kind of embarrassing that I do this. Let's get into... Can I just say one thing about other reason why I'm happy today? This is not admin. I just want to say, well, I thought it was Monday, so I'm doing great. But Thursday afternoon in L.A., the sun is out, which is nice.

I know that's not the case everywhere in our frigid dust bowl of a country. But I feel like the tide's turning. Looked around on the drive-in today to Spotify. The Madam Web posters are up. Nature is healing. Oh, yeah? You think that augurs good things for Hollywood? I tried to, when we sat down,

call up the tagline that I saw, but I feel like maybe safe search is hiding it from me because I don't want to pick on this movie because it's doomed. And because you're so good at calling your shot. But this movie that is a side spinoff of the non... Dakota Johnson will. have to sell her third Ohio home.

I'm worried about her. No, but like it's a, you know, it's a side spinoff of Sony's. We can't show Spider-Man in these movies, Spider-Verse movies. Yeah. Which have routinely made a billion dollars. The Venom movies are quite successful.

This morbius erasure will not stand, but okay. The tagline for it is, I believe, and I'm paraphrasing, it is, in our world, it's not always a good thing to see the future.

That's not the tagline. It's essentially, the tagline. But what is the tagline? You can't look it up? Okay, so there's clearly some doubt. There's some doubting Thomases. Sure. In the studio that I didn't hallucinate this, considering I thought it was Monday and I've been up since 530. But I promise you, and I think that, you know, readers can, readers, this is for this printed journal of a podcast. Listeners can let us know what they see. I will look and I will take a picture of this. Kaya, maybe we'll do some research as we continue. The tagline I promise you is,

in this world it's not good to see the future. Okay. Okay. Which, by the way, it's 2024. I don't disagree. You don't want to know. You're on pins and needles for November. But my thing is, my thing is, I think Nikki Haley's got a shot.

My thing is when you see like a pithy tagline on a poster and it's not great, you have to understand that that was the best of 20 options. Sure. Yes. So I'd like to do a. listener challenge to come up with the other 19 once we've confirmed what this one is. I think that we could ask Chat GPT this

and I think we would find that ChatGPT possibly wrote that tagline in the first place. Perhaps they made the movie. Sure. Okay. All right, Andy, so we are late on the Emmys which happened on Monday night while we were watching the Eagles. It would have been nice to watch winners that night instead. And I find myself in an interesting place with award shows.

As you probably know, it's not my favorite thing to do with my time, but it's like as soon as they're on and as soon as you start it rolling you kind of find yourself sucked in by the spectacle. I don't really have like a very strong political opinion about this in terms of like why I don't like it's just more like A I don't really like watching any cringy moments for some reason like with that stuff.

But B I also just like I find that the amount of time that we spend say talking about like who might win an Emmy is disproportionate. Like it doesn't match what actually winds up getting remembered about television from any given year. Right? So, like, I can't tell you who won the 2018 Best Comedy Actor Award.

But, like, I know what shows from 2018 that I liked. Do you know what I mean? What shows? I'm sure was Succession on then? I don't know. I don't remember anything about 2018, but... My point is more that, like, I find that the Emmys... I've often had, like, this sort of, like, strange relationship with the Emmys.

This Bill articulated in one of his new Walk-and-Talk videos that he's been posting online. He had to fix the Emmys video, and he was just like, they should start making this basically splitting it by runtime of the episodes because, like, The Bear is not funny. You know, Succession is funny. Why is that drama? Why is this comedy, et cetera?

So I think that there's a, maybe the Emmys is ripe for a reboot. Mrs. Maisel one, cleaned up in 2018, by the way. Oh, yeah. One of my faves. So I say all that to say. Another reason why these are kind of like these shows. are now starting to... Obviously, this Emmys was in January.

Usually the Emmys are in September. And this voting period ended at the normal time. They've been sitting on these results for months. Yes. And so what you're seeing is when the Bear won all these awards at the Emmys, it was for the first season of the Bear, not for the second season of the Bear. But the Golden Globes that it won were for the second season. And the Golden Globes turned out to be quite a precursor for the Emmys because we essentially got the same experience.

Yeah. So the Bear in succession, especially Enbeef, all cleaning up most of the major rewards. Nisi Nash winning for Dahmer, I think, was one of the things that didn't happen in the Globes that happened at the Emmys. But I was curious whether or not you had any major takeaways from the winners

rather than the show itself. Well, I do want to talk about the show itself too because I think there's a connection to be made between the show that they put on, which was a very pleasant, very entertaining broadcast and the winners. The first thing to say is,

I don't think I have a single bone to pick with any of the major winners at all. I did not see Dahmer. but I think Nisi Nash is really good. So I'm cool with it. I think some people will probably flag Jennifer Coolidge winning again for White Lotus when Ray Seahorn's last year of eligibility and first nomination. I almost kind of appreciate Better Call Saul going, like, what is it Ofer 57 on Emmy?

53. 53 on Emmy nomination. Yes, I think the Wire also was an Ofer famously. It kind of speaks to what I'm talking about here. Well, I think it's pretty interesting because generally, people who are plugged in and do things like listen to this podcast, I think are excited and then potentially like Charlie Brown in the football continually disappointed that the Emmys are not like talent scouts highlighting the very best and the most exciting from a medium that at least until quite recently was constantly spilling out new ideas, new stories, new genres, new talents, new broadcasts. that that doesn't match what people are expecting. And there were a couple years in there

when things were really humming. And there were new shows and new contenders every year and new stars coming to the small screen when the Emmys... And actually, to a greater degree, I always feel like the Golden Globes were in front of the trends. We're telling people.

And there were a couple years I remember getting on this mic and being like, look, yeah, Parks and Recreation didn't win, but, look, Nick Offerman was recognized this year. And it's funny now caping up for an NBC sitcom that, well, Everyone was like, sitcoms are in decline, was still getting millions of years per week. But that felt significant at the time.

What we're seeing now, I think, is two things happening in real time. One is a collective desire to return TV to its monocultural place in our country. On the part of Hollywood? On the part of the quote-unquote industry, which is a very large blanket term for the diverse membership of the TV Academy. It's focusing in on shows that you and I. think we're the best. I mean, the three winners of all of the awards, which were, to be clear, we're in our top five. HBO Succession, FX is the bear, and Netflix's beef, were all three were in each of our individual top fives. So recognizing those, I have, I think that's fantastic.

I think it's great. I think it's deserved. But it was very interesting to see the industry celebrating three shows as the end-all, be-all of the medium in this year during a broadcast that was, and this was partially because it was the 75th Emmys, but I thought it was actually more of a cry for help, to be honest, where of a broadcast that started with Anthony Anderson singing the Good Time song, and then went into him singing the Facts of Life theme song, and then him duetting with Travis Barker on the Miami Vice theme song.

And I was like, what percentage of people watching the show have any idea what the fuck he's talking about? And then I realized close to 100% because it only got 4 million viewers. So this collective desire to return, like Jack Docky, He said, he said 1997 through science or magic, but in this case, it would be 1985 through science or magic, was very intense and very tangible. The second piece about the same shows winning everything is more a reflection, I think, of something that we've been talking about on the podcast, which is there's too much stuff and seriously, how much are we really going to watch? like no one individually in Hollywood who has seen better call Saul is going to say that it's bad is going to say that it's not deserving but how many people have seen it are kept up with it

yeah and it's more note almost more notable than saying succession the bear and beef one everything is saying HBO FX Disney and Netflix won everything sure because as we have been saying in different ways on the show like they can still drive the needle I mean they can still move the needle and drive the culture, and other places can't. And as someone who loves Monsieur Spade, but absolutely ripped his own eyeballs out, shout out True Detective, season four during the commercials.

It might happen in season two in since that are. Because of the commercials that are on AMC. Oh, yeah. I get it. I get it. So I think there's a feeling of disappointment at the unanimity of the show, but I can understand it, both from an industry level and a cultural level.

I think it's a question of like, what do you go to these things for? Do you go to these things for confirmation bias, in which case this did a very good job of doing that? You know, I mean, I think Bill has a point, as do many people about whether or not the bear, Barry, and Abbott Elementary and jury duty should be in the same category, you know, whether or not they're doing the same things. Yeah, but I feel like I get that. But I just feel like we say comedy and drama, but everyone understands it's 30 and 60 minutes. Sure. You know, because there are, and does that maybe unfair, is that more unfair to the comedies when they have to compete against, you know, a full spectrum show like the bear? Maybe.

But I also feel like we're a couple years now into this understanding of the malleability of these shapes and forms. And I get it. Yeah. I mean, I think that you have to make some sort of categorical designations. I mean, obviously there's also been some manipulation of the anthology or limited series thing in the past. This year, White Lotus went into the regular drama. It's also been very strongly suggested that beef will be back, you know, for instance. Yes, they keep talking about it.

Yeah. What did my guy, Lee say? He was just like, I have to stare into the abyss and think about this, but very much, like, there are definitely more seasons here. There are other paths, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he could make beef that's not with these two characters that's about, like, another beef situation. Oh, oh, like, you mean sort of like the burger you ordered at the sports bar on Monday where you were like, give me the trapping of a burger, but I want it to be beyond.

You know how that broke for you. Terrible. You made the right choice. That hot squish of an uncooked patty. Delicious. I just wanted a veggie burger. You were smart to do that. I think, I don't want to sound cynical about the recreation of...

You sound less cynical than I do. My question was, like, would you rather have come out of this and had quote-unquote upsets or shocks if that meant that the shows that you think are most deserving, which we admittedly do think Succession the Bar and Beef for the most deserving probably.

I mean, yeah, universal. No, you don't agree with that or no? No, I agree with that. And I don't know. Well, first of all, we had a version of this conversation when the nominees were announced back when the show was going to be on in September, which is, boy, they kind of got it right. Like, it's really hard to argue with any of this.

You know, would it, did I think Alexander Scarsgaard could have won over Matthew McFadgen? Sure. Matthew McFadgin was better. Yeah. You know, and played it for many years. Like, it is weird to have no beef with really any of the awards. I mean, even Colkin, you know what I mean?

Like I thought, not even Colkin like that was like I, but I think that Roman has often been viewed as, A, as a supporting character. Yes. And B, as comic relief for that series. And then I thought that this award represented the full spectrum of what Kieran Colkin did with that character this season and what, they show did with that character.

I also feel, and this is more... Anyone for best lead actor, by the way. This is more me and my taste than I think other people, because I don't mean to diminish things. But if you look at... I'm going through the nominees for drama, Succession and or season one, which was our favorite show of that year,

which, because the calendar year, was a different year than this season of succession, but within the same Emmy year, September to June, basically. Better Call Saul, the Crown, House of the Dresson, Last of Us White Lotus Yellow Jackets. It's just, there's no, I mean, Andro is the only other show that I liked as much as Succession, but Succession should have won that. Like, I don't, it's hard to argue, you know.

Yeah. It doesn't mean the other people weren't good. I think the thing that I enjoyed about the show were, and maybe it's telling that I'm pointing out the one broadcast win, but having, but Carol Burnett coming out, who, Carol Burnett, who was on the last few episodes of Carl Sahl and was great. Giving the comedic leading actress award and giving a very funny opening speech and then giving the award to Quinta Brunson, who's very much deserving for Abid Elementary, and was very emotional

about it. And she was emotional about it because one of her comedy gods, Carol Burnett, handed her this award on the Emmy stage. That's what these awards shows can do for us. And I thought that was really beautiful and moving. But I'm realizing, as I'm saying it, that was a broadcast legend handing an award to a contemporary broadcast legend or whatever passes for a legend these days. Otherwise, and I know that, yes, there was a little tribute to The Sopranos too, but that was more about it

being the 25th anniversary of the show. Everything that was celebrated was from just a different cultural universe. It was from when, like young Anthony Anderson, when his mom, who was in the audience of the show, was out, we were all watching the same programs. And that doesn't exist anymore. It is, it's like comparing stats from the deadball era or whatever to contemporary baseball. It's like it's, it's just a different sport. Sure. And the more they claim that it used to be one thing, I think it doesn't do well. It doesn't really reflect well on TV's current state because it's evolving into something else right now, too. I don't want to step on the conversation that I want to have with you next week about Fargo and the Curse. I thought that was TBD. And I also, you know,

One of the sort of organizing ideas that I wanted to introduce was this rather viral David Chase interview that went around the last couple of days about him saying like the 25 years that we're coming out of here are a blip on the history of television and that TV is now reverting back to form. And I have this kind of interesting relationship with television. I spend a lot of time every week watching it and talking about it and searching for good stuff to talk about with you. but at the same time, I don't necessarily think I have the same relationship with the medium that say Sean has with movies, where it's like this is an important

cultural institution in this country and in the world and that there is a sacred communion that happens in the dark when we go into movie theaters and have these experiences. And there's also all these examples of Hollywood movies

being an example of like soft American power and influential across the world. And with TV, I kind of kind of, that grew up always thinking TV was there to sell you stuff, you know, and that this sort of couple of decades that we had, like David Chase is referring to, you know, the sort of the worship,

like, you can't really worship TV to me the way people, like, when they do the Oscars and they're like, it's like Lawrence of Arabia through nope, you know? And like, look at the continuum of incredible movie moments. And I love television, but I just, I don't have that relationship to it the way that Anthony Anderson kind of was celebrating. First of all, I should say Anthony Anderson, low-key, very good host.

Sure. Very good job. That's true. I mean, everything you said is true. They have very, very unique and often opposing roles, movies and TV in our lives and in our culture. We'll talk about this more next week. We're not going to step on it. But it's important to remember the messenger here where David Chase created arguably the best TV show of all time.

hates the medium. Right. Has always hated it. Has hated it from when he was growing up to when he was getting paid too much money in his words to write bad episodes of Colchek, The Nightstocker, so making Sopranos,

to finding out that his Sopranos movie was going to debut on TV because of a pandemic. Yeah. He hates it and resents it and thinks of it as a place just filthy with capitalism and compromise. Now, to that I would say,

have you gone to the multiplex recently? but broadly speaking, yeah, I think that the best, I mean, all collaborative, all art is collaborative and there's compromise in it. But, like, you know, you love when I reference other podcasts I listen to. And on the ringer gambling show last week, I thought JJ made a really compelling point. No, I was listening to Greta Gerwig, who's so great in long form interviews talking to Marin. It's just an amazing that she still has a career. I mean. I mean, after, I listen more as like a act of like a mea culpa, you know what I mean?

To be like, what can I learn from this person who I misjudged so terribly? And she took it well, you know, my criticism, my thought. No, but she's talking about like her different movies and the connection between them, but how each time she's like, I want to see the world and make a different world. I want a different light, different lens, do something, create an entire universe that makes sense for what's inside of me and the story and everything. And I think TV pilots often have that optimism. And I think, you know, the part of the era that Chase is referring to is an era that gave us, you know, like perfect little closed circuit gems, of which maybe Beef season one is among them.

Yeah. Like it was a fully realized thing. I just think the experience of Beef was different than our experience of the Sopranos. You know, our experience of beef. I mean, within David Chase's decade, two-decade blip or. whatever he's talking about, there's an even smaller blip of a feeling of collective audience, you know? Yes.

And I think that, you know, for as much as the audience numbers of decades past, dwarf what's happening now, I mean, and we can talk about that all day long, there is a kind of a sensation that the sort of minutes spent watching or hours watched Netflix stats just don't hit the same as the Nielsen number of 23 million people tuned in Game of Thrones that night, you know, to watch this epical moment. And so I think that it's as much for me as it is about, like, what kind of shows are or not being made. It has as much to do with the experience of television. And I think the Emmys were trying to remind us of the experience as much as the shows.

And that's why they reunited the cast of Martin and the cast of Cheers and rebuilt the sets and something. And yeah, does it do something to see Ted Danson and John Ratsenberger and George went and Kelsey Grammer and Reese, not different, Reapurlman. Yeah. Sorry, everybody. All in the same spot. Like, of course it does. I'm not made of stone.

It's wonderful. And what you're responding to, though, isn't, you know, the episode where Sam reads the news and raps. You're responding to is like, those are my friends. Sure. And my friends are together again, which is a profoundly TV thing. Yeah. And not necessarily a movie thing. It's also not necessarily a Stephen Young and Ali Wong thing.

It is a the bear thing, which is why I think people feel parisocially engaged in that show and in its success in a different way, which is why I saw as many times as I saw like certain acceptance speeches on Instagram or whatever. I mostly saw the camera on I.O. while Jeremy wins his award. Sure. Because people are like, they love each other in real life too. Right. That's part of it. Right. And also a special shout-out to friend of the pod, Chris Storer,

who won many awards, very deserving, couldn't be there due to sickness. And I don't know if he's happier or sad. Like, do you think he's sad that he didn't get to walk into cheers? Because they're the ones who gave him his awards. Ted Danson was behind the bar and announced him as the winner. So theoretically, he would have gone on stage and accepted his award in cheers. Cool. Yeah.

That would just be too surreal. Or maybe he had like a same game parlay going on the Bucs Eagles and wasn't even watching. He could have talked. Also, that's true. Yeah. Because I feel like I could, like, I posted a picture of some food I got at a Taiwanese supermarket on Monday afternoon. And he texted me like, fire emoji. And I was like, are you looking at food picks from the red carpet?

He was like, bro, I'm watching Steelers. The other thing he missed that was an opportunity to talk politics with Kelsey. Grammar and John Ratzenberger. That would have been chill. I see those guys at my mechanics a lot. Do you? Are they talking about? If you know what I'm saying.

Let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about Mr. Spade. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. Okay, we're back, Andy, and we're going to talk a little bit about the first episode of Mr. Spade before we get into our interview with Clive Owen. Fair to say that we are over the moon for this. I love this show. Yeah. I wrote out, I like kind of for my own edification,

wrote out my attempt at a recap of this episode. And I will say it was a time-consuming exercise because Scott Frank and Tom Fontana, who have two of the best resumes in film and television as far as writers go. It was also this was executive produced by Barry Levinson. I don't know if you caught that in the credits. I think that's because he and Tom Fontana still produce everything together.

Okay. And then Scott Frank has directed all of these. episodes. Did you notice that Tom and Scott alternate top billing? It didn't. The writing of each episode? I did not. That's sweet. We should do that, by the way. We'll talk after. Should we do that on Stick the Landing or on the Watch? You're the executive producer of Stick the Landing in that. It's all under your umbrella. So the reason why I did this exercise of writing this style, like for True Detective, I'll do it just for fun and also because True Detective has like Easter eggs and stuff like that. For this, I was doing it as much as an exercise just to remind myself of what happened

in the first episode because I watched it a couple of weeks ago. And then as I was doing it, I was like, this is so fascinating to see what Scott and Tom, Scott Frank and Tom Fontana are doing with my relationship or my idea of like Dashel Hammett, but specifically the Maltese Falcon, which is the 1941 adaptation by John Houston is sort of one of the most famous detective movies ever made. It's a novel by Dashel Hammett. It features this detective Sam Spade. And in the Monsieur Spade television show, Sam Spade has sort of washed up in the south of France in 1955 with a ward, like a child. This is what really piqued your interest.

That he's responsible for, he's bringing this kid Teresa from Istanbul where her mother, Bridget O'Shaughnessy, was living. and who died and who died and who died and is bringing her to back to like her hometown or not her hometown but back to the south of France where her father is supposed to be living

so when you start writing out what happens in this episode you realize very quickly that you were in the zone that William Faulkner was in when he was trying to decipher what happens in the big sleep when he was adapting Raymond Chandler's novel

for the famous movie version of it with Bogart where you're just like, I'm upside down in this. Like, there's so much information, there's so much dense, there's such a density of plotting and double crossing and, you know, cross relationships. And then you kind of realize when you stick your head above water,

that's not really the point. Correct. I wonder whether you feel that about Mr. Spade, because Mr. Spade is not, it's dealing with real historical events in some ways, and it's dealing with different characters' relationships to the French, resistance during World War II to the Algerian War in the 50s and 60s.

And I was kind of curious whether you found yourself feeling like, I need to get on top of this plot or I just don't mind letting it wash over me and have the great dialogue and the great scenery. Well, famously, we've said this many times when we talk about our favorite genre books, especially in the detective crime genre, plot is not what you're there for. You're there to sink into something. And you're sort of, you're making your own, you're swimming your own lane. through the tides that the author is throwing at you.

I love the show so deeply because it is, at least through one episode, a near-perfect marriage of immaculate vibes and profound craft. And you don't necessarily notice both at the same time. What I mean is I watched this first episode once and immediately drawn in by Clive Owen's version, his performance, his interpretation of Sam Spade, the scenery, the possibility of the world, the sense that we are somehow familiar and deeply unfamiliar, we are doing something that is at once established an archetypal but also new.

And yeah, I'm lost in the fog of, you know, having little coffees with erudite police chiefs and smoking too many cigarettes and then not smoking cigarettes and plucking the feathers off your own perfect chicken and then also getting shot at. Like all of these things, like it's just, I just sailed through it. I watched the first episode a second time. And I was like, what did I watch the first time? Because I have very little working memory of any of the mechanisms here. Sure.

And that's when I realized that, you know, that is not a bug. That is a feature. That is what Scott Frank has made his career doing is giving you the things that you don't even realize you need to stay afloat. We keep referencing and we'll hopefully get to reference it with him at some point, the New Yorker profile of him, where it just talks about how he is one of one when it comes to fixing scripts. And that realization that while I'm swimming around in my already labored metaphor,

there is a strong, strong foundation underneath this pool. The currents are very well designed and controlled. And you are safe not fully knowing what's going on because there are a lot of more episodes to go and we are being led at the correct pace to get through it. I agree with you. you. I think a good moment. I'm trying to think of illustrative moments from this first episode, which we're going to spoil if

you're listening to this. I hope that you've checked it out by now. It's on AMC. A good example of this would be the scene when in the, so the show starts out, it's in 1955 for the first 10 or 12 minutes. It's set in 1955. Sam Spade has arrived in Bozoules in the south of France. It's a convent town, a small town with a convent in it. And he's brought this girl Teresa from Istanbul. He's trying to reunite her with her father.

If he does so, he'll get a handsome payment. The girl, Teresa, is the daughter of a woman named Bridget O'Shaughnessy. If you are familiar with the Maltese falcon, Bridget O'Shaughnessy is sort of the femme fatale of Maltese falcon. And at the end of that film, Sam Spade sends her down for the murder of his partner, Miles Archer. And even though he's basically in love with her, he's like, somebody's got to pay for this. It's like, it establishes this idea that there is a

code that Sam Spade lives by, even if it seems like he's incredibly cynical and incredibly practical and pragmatic, that there is an overarching moral or ethical code that he subscribes to that would, and he has to sort of lose out here as much as anybody else because he's sending away the woman he loves because she murdered his partner. There's also this wild chase for one of the great, I don't even know if he's, would call it, Mcuffins, but sort of symbols of greed

in any fiction, I would say, which is this enameled, jeweled statuette that people are chasing all over the globe from Hong Kong to San Francisco to Istanbul,

again, Constantinople in that movie. That is basically like the, it's the gold mine. It's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's the thing that everybody is chasing. It's the get-rich-quick scheme.

And it attracts all these con men. I don't know if the Maltese falcon will ever have any impact on Monsieur Spade, but I guess it's just worth throwing out there that that is what kind of brings Bridget O'Shaun to C into Sam Spade's life and then sends her out of it. And after about 12 minutes of a very efficient, you know,

of very efficient like mystery storytelling and... And classic more banter. Yeah, a lot of banter. We jump ahead eight years, and this guy is now gone from fish out of water, new in town stranger. To a poisson. to a member of this small French town's society, essentially.

He's like a business owner. He has been married and then widowed and is now living on the vineyard of his ex, of his late wife, Gabrielle. That's how you do it. And the economy with which it moves through so many very significant moments, not only in the history of this town, but in the history of France, is breathtaking. The moment I wanted to highlight is a really small one,

but it speaks to what you were saying before where Sam is having coffee in a cafe outside with the chief of police in this small town who he has got a sort of adversarial but begrudgingly respectful relationship with. Partly because of the policeman's personality, but also because of his fluent English. Yeah. So they're sitting outside in this cafe

and, you know, it's great. Everybody's offering him cigarettes, all the time and he's not taking them because he's got emphysema and he's trying to avoid a pretty bad outcome for himself, Sam Spade is. And a monk comes up to them. Yeah.

And now the first time you watch it, you're just kind of like a beggars or a monk has come up. Maybe he's got leprosy. He's got this big robe on. You can't really see him. And Sam gives the guy money. The police chief waves him away and basically threatens him and tells him to get out of there.

the monk kind of tries to throw like a curse on him a little bit. But it seems like a throwaway moment. But it turns out that this monk is going to be a huge character in this story. It turns out that he's telling you right away, like that this guy is walking around, this guy who winds up essentially, you know, at least being put on the scene of a horrific murder at the end of the episode, is an important character.

But he's just like passing through this cafe. It's a throwaway moment in a conversation between these two guys. And it's just such good writing. It's such good writing to be like, you have to pay attention to everything, but I will hold your hand and walk you to water here. Yeah, I think that that's the, it's craft on such a level that you don't notice the seams. He's guiding you, even if you don't notice. And it's such a, I mean, I find as a viewer, I find that so reassuring.

Yeah. You can miss things, but you can also realize. reward yourself with multiple viewings. And to the larger point, like every single thing is intentional. And to build something that way, to build something that is this dense, where every character,

every frame is purposeful and potentially weighted, but also you can just sit back. And you have room for Sam Spade to be dropping little one-liners and having little rattle. At a tat dialogue. Usually you get one or the other. Usually you get lost in the sauce of like, I'm just doing a noir and he's going to wear a hat and he's going to be clever.

You're not thinking about the larger machinery that you're building around it. And it can't help but think of, again, the intentionality of Bezul, the town, which I know nothing about, other than it looks very beautiful and it's French. And you could just enjoy that. Or you could Google the town and see that one of the first things that comes up is that this is a French town on the edge of a giant hole. That it is geographically completely unique. because the town was built on the edge of a giant hole. Yeah. Because of the nature of the bedrock there.

And the idea that it goes, something is deeper, that there's an emptiness in the side of this. Of course. And do they have the new Madam Web posters there or is that? Only on the bedrock layer, not in the town. So you actually have to repel down to see them. Yeah, this is pleasurable to know this. Because, again, there's a lot.

of, and we praise things. I don't mean to say there's only one way to do a story. Like sometimes when people are things that are flashier and people are trying things and throwing stuff of you, like that can be fun. Yeah. But this is a totally different vibe. That could be, I think, misconstrued by some as, because it is, this is a show that sets its own tempo right away. And that might be, you know, that might be off-putting or might not feel like other things you've been watching. It might feel genteel. I didn't find it slow, necessarily. I don't find it slow either, but I think it is slow. developing, you know, it is

unfolding, and I enjoy that. I think that, generally speaking, in a lot of contemporary mysteries, especially limited series, I find that those opening episodes, but the first episode,

typically, we saw this with True Detective, we saw this with Mayor of East Town, and you see it with a lot of stuff, where it's more establishing characters. They establish characters in Mr. Spade, but they move through a lot of story. By the 15th minute, you realize that Sam and his late wife, Gabrielle, meet under these sort of like funky circumstances where he's been in a car accident and she comes

and picks him up. Also, literally lightning strikes. He would not have met her had he not been driving at that exact moment when lightning knocked a tree branch down blocking the road during a massive storm. Yes. And then you realize that she's got a proposition for him, that she wants him to help her get out of a blackmail situation that's being perpetrated by Teresa's actual biological father, this guy Philippe that we haven't met yet. Who is not, who is a bad actor of CAD of some sort. Yes. And is not in town.

And this is 1955 still. And then we gracefully just sort of maneuver into eight years into the future and find out that she's passed away. We jumped to 1963 and he's at the cemetery. at her gravestone. And we slowly then learn over the course of the episode, she's passed away,

he's inherited at all this, there are people in town who are not crazy about that. They feel like they deserve X, Y, or Z from the estate. There's a guy living on the estate who's doing paintings, a young British man.

He shows up. He shows up. We learned that Sam Spade lives to swim naked. Yeah. That he has still been looking out for Teresa in some regards

by being a benefactor to the convent that he has sent her to go live at, or she has been sent to go live at, but they seem to have a somewhat antagonistic relationship now where she's kind of moody and off by herself as a teenager now and not really talking to him when he comes to talk to the mother superior. And over the course of the episode, we meet, you know, a nightclub, Shantus owner, and her alcoholic husband

and the police chief and his assistant, there's also a huge ensemble of characters. But the ultimate thing, the twist that happens is at the end, the nuns are executed by someone we don't know who, and Teresa has, you know, has escaped. And Philippe is back. And Philippe is back, right. And that's all really dense for a first episode.

There's a lot of plot. One thing that I want to keep an eye on is how, so basically, you know, there's classic noir, Maltese Falcon, and then there's the word that gets thrown around a lot and is used to describe this show as Neo-Noir, like an updated, a modern version of a noir. This is sort of an in-betweener in that it is a completely new take on a noir icon,

maybe the noir icon. It's terroir noir noir. Holy shit, look at you. Would you like to co-host a podcast about finallies with me? You are the best of this. There's just, until we get to the end, the last 10 minutes of the episode, I don't think that there's much in the dark at all.

It's beautiful French countryside. It's daytime war. But it's also in the past. Yeah. You know, so it's a period piece twice over, but the periods in question are later than the period of the classic noir. Yes. And I was really struck by when in our conversation with Clive that he talks about how indebted he is and his performance is to Bogart. You know, that there was not a sense of we're going to do something completely new.

There was a sense of continuity that we want to honor it and we want to reimagine it. And so that's just for me, that's just something. to keep an eye on. It's like, what does the idea of reimagining a noir mean to people that I respect so highly? Yeah. Like Scott Frank and Tom Fontana and Clive Owen. Because it is not as simple as, I don't mean to throw astray here, but it's not like Ryan Johnson doing brick. Right.

You know, which has its strengths. I don't mean, but in the sense of it's not just like, what would a detective be in 2024? Well, I think that the idea in brick is that you basically transpose the dialect and the, the vibe of noir detective filmmaking, but transpose it into like, what is it, early 2000s high school. For this, one of the great pleasures of it, strangely, is the way that it stymies its own genre leanings, and by which I mean one of the great joys of reading detective fiction,

really good detective fiction, is the language. Well, language is a really, it's a pressure point in this show because Spade can speak French, but not great. Some people can speak English or most people can speak English in the show, but probably not as well as they speak French. And yes, he gets off 10, 15, 21 liners, but there's a different cadence to the writing and to the language in the show. There's also a different cadence, or not a different cadence, I would say, the jury's still out. I would say, watch the filmic language because Scott didn't just write this with Tom Fontana. He directs every episode.

And I was noticing that at least to my super layman's eyes, there's a lot of classic Hollywood filmmaking and camera movement in it, like when he's driving and the rain slashing across the headlights of the car and the camera moves up to frame him behind the wheel. There's the shot that I think is the still image when you select the show on AMC app, which is him with a trunk open looking into the car or into the hood in this case. I don't know. I don't go to the same mechanic as you. My car has a front, to be honest with you.

So that is telling us something, and it might seem traditional or might seem conservative. And I'm curious about what happens with that going forward. And that also makes me think again why this is an interesting Sunday night pairing with True Detective, which we'll be talking about every Sunday night or Monday, which is doing something. I mean, it's not fair to compare them. Anyone who dives into a genre like noir or neo-noir brings their own passions. and what interests them the most. But what I've been struck by so far, and we'll talk about this more on the next show,

is Issa Lopez's camera work and the framing seems very contemporary TV, even. But in that, she is doing lynch vibes. But she's not making the rest of the show like the lynch vibes. They just sort of happen in the same frame as the other stuff. So there's an interesting collision between what might be her style and the influences that whereas so far visually, filmically with a camera, it feels like Scott Frank is paying homage. And I'm curious to see how that changes as the story goes forward.

I am too. If it changes. Yeah, I mean, we will obviously be hitting the show as much as we possibly can over the coming weeks. Can I also just say before we get into it? Clive Owen, great guest. Great guests. We love talking to him. He was such a treat.

So why don't we get into our interview with Clive Owen, right? Yeah, I think, Kai, did we end up going right into the interview? Yeah, we just roll right into some Liverpool talk. It's great because you guys, I think you can imagine if I can set the scene. It's just like a regular weekday morning in L.A. And I'm in kitchen and Chris is in his house on Zoom. On Zoom. And we're like, Clive is joining. We're great.

And like this dashing motherfucker wearing a blazer and like this like hushed, dusky English evening light appears. And I was just like, I am underdressed for this podcast. But it turns out Chris was appropriately dressed. I wore a Liverpool sweatshier because Clive Owen is a Liverpool fan as I am I. But interestingly, it was a pretty indie jersey, which is discussed. Yes. It was great. I'm so happy he joined us.

Thanks to Kai for producing. We'll be back on Sunday night to talk with each other about True Detective Night Country episode two. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo,

be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake.

But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. I wore the LFC sweatshirt for you today, but you did, you did top me with this blazer. But it's green and black. I know.

I got it at Anfield, though. It's like the third away kit. Yeah. Oh, wow. Wow. Are you a Liverpool fan? I am, yeah. Oh, that's good.

You're going to get on great. Don't worry. It's all good. Okay, we can get started. Did you say the third away kit? It's like kind of like a, it's like a third strip. It's just like it's different than, yeah, the usual home away stuff. I've never seen it before.

That's how rare. it is. That's right. He's questioning whether or not this was Booling. When I say I bought it outside of Anfield, it's like some guys sold it to me. There's a non-zero chance that he's bluffing. Like, I think we should all accept that. Clybo, and thank you so much for joining us today on the watch. Andy and I are already obsessed with Mr. Spade.

It's one of our favorite things we've seen so far this young year. Let's just talk a little bit about what drew you to the project. Although, to me and Andy, it's like kind of obvious. I mean, you get to work with Scott Frank, you get to interrogate this amazing character. But can you give us a little bit of background about how Scott approached you and what happened to make you sign on to do this? Yeah, I'm not sure I'd even met Scott before, but I certainly knew of him and I'd read stuff that he'd written and have been a huge fan. I read, he did that series, Godless. And I remember many years ago, there was a film script of that that was going around that was one of the best things I ever read.

And I'd always held him in the highest regard. and he's very, like he's very good friends with Steven Soderberg and Tony Gilroy who I know both of them really well and I've just always held him in high regard and then I got a call saying that he wanted him and Tom Fontana wanted to talk to me about a project and they jumped on the phone

and they pitched me, there was no script then it was just he pitched me the idea we want to do this Sam Spade we want to sort of jump ahead, put it in France and I have a small original Maltese folk and poster on the wall. I just took a shot of it and sent it to it. He said, you've come to the right guy. So it was a gift because anybody had come to me and talk to me about the possibility of doing

Sam Spade. I'd have been interested, but the fact that it was someone of his caliber was really exciting. I also love the positive energy that Scott put out into the world with this project, because we had him on this podcast a few years ago, and he announced to us that he would be doing Sam Spade and France with you. I think it was unsold. There may have not been a script, but I feel like he operates like the secret where he just says it.

He enthusiastically gets you on board, which is the opposite of how I think a lot of dream projects work in Hollywood. No, he was great. I had an absolute joy working with him. Yeah, really, really great. Did you find, you know, going through your filmography, Clive,

you obviously worked with a lot of virtuosic directors from Quaron to Rodriguez and you mentioned Stephen Soderberg. Is it a different experience working with a virtuosic writer like Scott? He obviously is an accomplished director himself now as well, but his approach to character and building this thing is, I would imagine, different from some of the people he've worked with in the past who take a very visual approach to everything that they make.

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And it's a real blessing when you work with... I mean, Scott is a really, really top director as well. So he's not, you know, but he comes from writing. and it's just it's almost like you lose that sort of there's a sort of filter step there that when a director doesn't write

and they refer to the writer and the writer comes back and the actor like it just takes time and it's a sort of process it's a filtering process when you've got the brains in front of you and you sit there and you discuss an idea he can either which he can do he can either fix it super quickly

there in front of you and go well that sorts that or he goes, yep, got that, know what you're talking about, and it comes back. So it's a joy. It just makes the whole thing leaner, really. It's a much more direct way of working. You know, let's talk a little bit about Sam Spade because, you know, initially going into this, I was obviously really excited for it, but he seems almost like a character where the most iconic performance of the character, in this case, Humphrey Bogart and Maltese Falcon,

is almost like George Smiley, where you have this Alec Guinness performance that towers above almost the fictional character himself. But then Gary Oldman comes along and plays Smiley to great acclaim in the Tinker Taylor remake. And now, you know, I have to admit, like when I think of Sam Spade, your face pops up. For you, was that intimidating?

It's only because it's recent. Yeah, it's probably a recent bias. I know. Was there any, I don't know if intimidation is the right word or trepidation about. walking in those footsteps for you? Weirdly, no, it's odd that. Because I am a huge Bogart fan.

Casablanca is my all-time favorite film. It's a cliche, but it's a film I could watch weekly and still, like, you know, totally love it and enjoy it. And because we were taking, many years ago, I was working with a studio and had the rights to play Chandler's Marlowe and we never got a script that was really good enough

and it sort of just drifted away but when you attack sort of noir generally I think the trouble is that we're so used to all the big cliches and that it can not get boring but just we're too familiar with it. We know the tropes. We know what it is and even if you do it beautifully, brilliantly

it's kind of so the fact that Scott lifted it and put it in totally be in a different environment, fish out of water, south of France, 20 years later, a different guy trying to live a quiet life. But the origins of the guy have still got to be that guy. And for me, I'm English, I'm playing American and I'm surrounded by primarily French actors, speaking French. So I've got to somehow, I've got to ground it in some way and have something for myself that puts me in the right place and puts me, even though we're playing an older spade,

It's still got to be the guy that came from there. So I totally embraced the Bogart of it all because it was a big help in terms of rhythm, in terms of accent, in terms of, you know, I actually, I lifted all of the dialogue from Casablanckram Maltese folk and only Bogart's, not the other characters, not anybody speaking back to him, just his dialogue. And that was my kind of centering every day. if I went, right, just to get into the vibe, because, you know, if I'm, you know, shooting in San Francisco and everybody's doing the sort of period noir thing, then you sort of leave, but because I was totally

sort of, in an alien environment, it felt really important to ground it. And that's what I did. And I wasn't, I didn't go there going, oh, I need to put my own mark on this. I used it as an excuse to really enjoy and look at actors of that period and, you know, what made it different? What was that period acting? And actually, Bogart would stand up today. If you put him in a movie tomorrow, I mean, those films are 80 years old and some actors don't, they don't stand that test of time. They look mannered or they're doing a particular kind of thing that doesn't stand up. Bogart, you put in them in a movie tomorrow, would be believable. I'm curious about your approach to sort of archetypes like this. And you've,

already begun to express it so beautifully. And that idea of Bogart playing today is really interesting to me because I think that historically the idea of a private eye is used by authors in the genre that we're talking about is kind of a blunt instrument that can penetrate all layers of a closed society. And because it's kind of a blunt instrument, they crack wise and they crack jaws, but they never break. And I feel like one of the things that we look for in more contemporary protagonist is their own, for lack of a better word, trauma or pain or their, internal life. And I wondered if that was an ongoing conversation for you and your process in this role, because as you said, you're playing something that is familiar to us and that serves a function,

but not only has Scott updated it, you are bringing a modern sensibility to the performance throughout as well. We are, but I would argue that I wanted to embrace what it was rather than look for the new version, because ultimately, you know, it would have interested me less if Sam, Spade bears his soul, gets emotional, finds his weak spot, becomes the modern day Sam Spade, you know, more neurotic, more sensitive. Like, that's not for me why I want to do it. I want to do it because those kind of iconic characters and, you know, they're restrained, they hold things tight, you know, the reason they endure is because they have this moral

compass that we all love, which is they have to do the right thing. thing and they're tough and they're mean, but we know deep down that decent people who are trying to do the right thing and will, you know, go out of their way to do that. And I wanted to celebrate that. And I also, you know, when going back and studying Bogart a lot in all of his films, what you realize is that he never milks anything. You think he's laconic and laid back, but he's super fast with his dialogue. When he has speeches, they're actually super nimble, dexterous, like, He's really, really, like, you know, properly skilled. But he makes it all look so easy.

And it was something really, like I really opened up, and I called Scott and I said, you know, it seems to me it's going to be key that we don't hang about, that we really don't. Scott is, you know, loves the genre, wrote brilliantly for it. The rhythms and intonations were perfect. And it became really important not to overindulge. Like, get through it, let the good writing sing. And similarly, that was Bogart's style of acting of his time. Just one other question about this idea of playing archetypes.

I know that, and I know you know, that earlier in your career, after Krupeye, people were fancasting, he was Bond almost immediately. And that was a part of every interview you did, I'm sure. I'm happy to indulge you again. I'm sure you're thrilled to talk about this. But very quickly, you established, whether that was a real thing or not in your world, you establish yourself as a more adventurous actor in choosing parts that were against the archetype and against your own, what people perceived you to be.

I wonder what that conversation is like for you creatively now because I was interested to hear that you were considering Marlow at one point. Here you are playing Sam Spade. What is your relationship to these things that people expect from you maybe because of your jawline or some of your earlier roles versus what you expect for yourself? I hope is more than my jaw line. By the way, this is an audio.

but it's a great job. Yeah. It is. We're all in envy. You're maintaining, seriously. You look great. I think that's really what I was wanted to ask. No, it is an interesting question because I, you know, even pre-Crupeier, way before that, before

things opened up in America for me, I did a lot of TV in the UK. I did this sort of hit TV show called The Chans Through is very confident and cocky guy. And then I was offered a lot of lead TV stuff. And I remember really, really early on, even as things had opened up, that I didn't want to get trapped into sort of, you know, hey, it's a mainstream TV thing. And this small film that this really good writer-director, Stephen Pollock made called Close My Eyes, which was about an incestuous relationship between a brother and sister with Alan Rickman playing the husband and Saskatchez playing the sister. And in the middle of this sort of prime time TV popularity, I really went after this film because I thought it was so cool, so interesting,

tabloids, you know, clive Owen and incest shocker, like, because I was like primed. And it was a very beautifully and sensitively made film. But that was an instinct even back then. Don't fall into that like repeating thing. Don't like, I think because I train in the theater, my gut instinct and that was my first love was to play lots of different parts. That was the joy.

That's why I wanted to do it. I want to play lots of different parts. I don't want to hone something and get good at it and then go, right, just keep working that and we'll be good. Like that's not, and if you look at it, you look at the career as a whole and it's not a plan. It's just different, you know, they're all choices. They're all like, yeah, I think I'll do that or yeah, I'll go for that.

It's very, very varied. and I often quite like to be scared. I like to take something on that's a little scary because, you know, I think that's where you learn the most. And also, what's the worst thing you can happen? You know, a career, you know, I'll be bad. I've been bad before. It's no big deal.

It's like you just have to pick yourself up and go for something else and like, but that's the way to grow. And that's also what interests me. It's like I go, great, I can go and explore this sort of great, I can go and explore that. And that's where that comes from, I think. One of my favorite things about the series so far is that it's sending me down these rabbit holes, historical rabbit holes to find, you know, read about the French resistance,

read about the Algerian war. Are you a history buff and was the historical kind of density and sort of just like the way Scott obviously interpolates like these historical movements into the show? Was that an sort of an attraction for you? It was because it just grounds it because, you know, if we're in the quintessential cute French village in the 60s and everything, you know, we're sort of in this thing, but to bring in something real, something relevant, to make the backdrop of this story, something that, you know, was very important at that time. And, you know, it just, it's another sort of layer. And it's what Scott's very, very good at is just, you know, in this, you know, little quintessential French town, you're going to get to know the character. and then you're going to get to know their stories and that everybody is interconnected in some way, but everybody's carrying something.

And the beauty, I suppose, of television and being able to do six hours of visit, you can take your time and get into it and get underneath the lives of all these people and the backdrop to the whole thing. Yeah, it's just so incredible to consider Sam Spade actually existing at a time when the French New Wave is happening since the French New Wave were so influenced

by those genre movies of the time. You know, the subtle time jump that happens in the first episode going from 55, I believe, to 63. Did you modulate your performance in this really incredible way? I mean, you're still sort of in the same era of this character's life. Maybe if you look back and he was like, well, that was the time that I was in France. But you're different in the 55 scenes than you are in the early 60s. What were some of the things that you did in your head and just kind of like maybe physically

to change that up a little bit? Well, I'm glad you noticed that, honestly, because I think, you know, No, seriously, because I think some people wouldn't, because I did. I roughed him up. He's a guy who's just arrived himself. He's just left the Maltese falcon and he's staggered into France with a kid. And he's that tough, hard-boiled classic. And when we meet him later in the 60s, there is a softening.

There is an older guy trying to live a quiet life. But in those early flashbacks, he's the tough, wise guy that's come into town to go, right, I've got, you know, I've been given a job. I want to get paid for it and this is what I'm doing. And there is a different energy. And that, you know, I'm also helped in that, you know, Scott's dialogue, you know, helps that as well. That also was, you know, helped me do that. 55 Spade would never bring his own bag to market.

Never. He would expect a fruit vendor to provide that for that. That's right. Reusible bags weren't that big. My word to Scott are running gag throughout the whole. thing is I go up to him and just go, I've been tube. I've been totally tuned. Like, I get no coat. I get no hat. I don't have a gun. I'm like, yeah, what is this? This is bullshit. I said, I'm going off to play Marlowe or something else. This isn't satisfying enough.

A moment ago, Clive, you talked about, you know, your willingness to, your desire even in your career to be a little bit afraid to take chances and try new things. And over the last few years, we've seen you, you know, do a lot of different accent work, whether it's modulations of a British accent or modulations of an American accent or even doing Bill Clinton, which is a famous accent and a famous voice. Out of all of those jobs was the most challenging doing an American accent speaking French badly. Because we Americans do it very well. It comes very naturally. I wonder if that was more of a reach. No, the French was harder than I thought. They, you know, they asked me somebody uh there was some big meeting when somebody says oh and how's your french is it good and i went

it will be and i i haven't did i didn't do any french i hadn't done any french didn't do at school and i ended up going well i'll learn french i got time i'm going to learn french and i got a school teacher and we zoomed regularly and then i realized after hours and hours of this that i was sort of treading water and i was learning an awful lot of stuff that was just not applicable i don't I'm not going to pass an exam. I'm not going to be tested on the grammar. I'm not going to improvise in French. So I quickly changed tact and I learned it phonetically.

I got somebody French to help me, learned all the sounds like a wooden accent, made sure that I knew the scenes inside out, so I knew what everybody was saying when they were talking to me. And I learned it as, you know, in that way, just in terms of vocal phonetics. Speaking of France, though, because I'm obsessed with the idea of getting a chance to work in the South of France for a week.

This was, yeah, it was tough. It was really tough. That's the thing. I thought, I really admired Chris's entry. The first question to you was, was it Scott Frank? Was it Sam Spade that attracted you to this part? I think you just saw the log line. Yeah, but the thing is, is that like he gets to go to the South of France.

He gets to go to the South of France and then he has to have a prostate exam. So it's like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. that came first. Clive didn't. Okay, it's in the south of France. I'm in. And we're going to do a show.

Do you feel like doing the French language work to the extent that you did and being in France? Do you think that there was even infinitesimal improvement of the chances of Liverpool getting Killian Mbapé by like this sort of genuine

like sort of you opening yourself up to French culture in this way? Do you think that the payback? talk, I was talking about this last night. Killingenbabe for me is the best player on the planet and the moment. I don't think he'll go to Liverpool. His mother's a huge Liverpool fan. It could happen.

She is, but come on, like, he'll go to Realm Madrid. He'll go to Realm Madrid. I'm sure he will. I mean, I adore him. I think he's such a stunning player. The idea of him that Liverpool would be like Dreamland, but I'm not sure it'll happen. My sincere question is I, you know, I was watching the Maltese Falcon again, just to sort of refresh my memory before we did this interview.

And I always love how those, especially the detective moors from back then, the Chandler's and the Hamlet adaptations, you get about 20 minutes in, you think you got a handle on it. And then all of a sudden, you're upside down and you can't remember. And it's like that famous Faulkner asks Chandler, who does it at the end. And Chandler says, I don't know. How important is it for you as the actor, as the performer, can you keep all the narrative threads straight? Can you keep your head above the mystery and kind of know the things maybe that the audience doesn't know? Yeah, I'm very, I'm very, always very, it's very important to me to have a

clear oversight through everything. And when I talk, you talk to sort of directors that I work with, I'm not, I'm not somebody who's just totally consumed with what I'm doing and my, it's the whole picture and how I fit into it. It's also really important. And I really, I really treasure getting into a director's head beforehand. I hate doing it on the set. I always like to have had that work done. I don't like lots of talking on the set. I think that's the time where you go in

and now we've got to execute, we've got to do it. But I will bug a director a lot pre-shooting anything to make sure as long, you know, if there's anything unclear or to get their intention. Now, sometimes with a writer like Scott, there's less of this talking. it's clear. The one thing, the huge strength, like, you know, and the thing I adored about the Queen's Gambit, the clarity of storytelling, the clarity of intent, where he puts a camera,

how he moves the story forward, it's super clear. And when you get that, it's really satisfying, I think, especially when someone's very smart with it. So you sit there and it's like, it's so enjoyable because you go, I'm in really good hands here, and they're taking me through the story with a clarity of intent and purpose that is super satisfying. And similarly, with Spade, you get those scripts. We didn't need too many discussions. We tweak dialogue and we, you know, tweak some things in it. But I didn't need that much because I got it. I looked at it. I read it. I went, I see what he's doing there. Great. And I'll, you know, and the challenge of doing a job like this is, he's living up to the good writing. The writing was there for me.

You know, if I messed it up, that was my fault. My guess is that it feels different from inside of an actor's career than it does from us watching it from the outside. But from the outside, it's been such a pleasure for us as fans of your work to see all the different things that you've been able to do in this streaming age over the last few years or even going back to the Nick, which is one of our favorite shows of the century thus far. I mean, we adored it. But just even in the last few, in the very last few years, whether it's the Bill Clinton part that I referenced or recently got to play a tech billionaire in Iceland. and murder at the end of the world, and now you get to play Sam Spade. How do you look at the buffet of choices

that may or may not be available to you in this era? What floats your boat right now? And what do you, in as much as an actor can choose and determine what roles are coming to you, what is inspiring you? I never, I don't know until it's inspired me. I'm not one of the, I don't have a plan. I'm not going to, I'm looking for a great 10-part series.

Now I want to do a movie in this shot. It's really to do with what comes and then whether it, ignites me or not. Now, you know, I'm glad you love the Nick because I'm super proud of that show and I think Soderberg did a phenomenal job. One of the best ensemble cast you could dream of, you know, is like everyone, I rated everyone so highly and I thought Stephen Soderberg executed it so beautifully. And I remember like, you know, I wasn't thinking of doing TV. I hadn't done TV for a long time. And then he called me up. He sent me the first script. I was in a trailer shooting something. else. I read it during that

lunch. I sat there and was like, what is this? I finished it and I called him before lunch was over. Said I'm in. That could have been 90 minute movie. It could have been a 20-hour series. It could have been a play. After reading that and knowing it was in his hands of

like, you know, I was like that is hugely exciting. And that's a lot of my decisions about whether it ignites you, whether it triggers you. When they came to me about playing Clinton at first I was like, that's crazy. Why would anyone, why has anyone even thought of that? That's crazy. And it was a definite no in my head. And then something started to happen. I started to look at him. I started to think. And then suddenly I go,

you know what? I can see something in this. There could be something like, and, and that's how I choose everything. It's about whether sometimes you read things and it ignites the thing that was there at the very beginning. Why you got into it? Why are you at? Why, you know, things just ignite and you go, oh, I want to do this. There's something I feel I can do in this.

And that is how, you know, there's been no more shaping than that, really. Well, we can see why you took to this part and to this show because it's so great. Clive, thank you so much for spending time with us today. And thanks for making Mr. Spade.

Okay. Thank you. Thanks. You guys can take your Liverpool. chat offline. I'll sign that often. So let's do an hour on the transfer window. Exactly. If you ever want to do a half an hour on discussing Liverpool, you come to me. This is fantastic. Take care. Thank you, love. Take care. All right. Cheers.