The Watch - What the Success of the Barbenheimer Weekend Tells Us About the Movie Industry. Plus, ‘Special Ops: Lioness.’

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the rare success of ‘Barbie’ and ‘Oppenheimer’ at the box office this weekend: two movies that are not sequels or comic book movies (1:00). Then, they give their reviews of each movie, talking about how Greta Gerwig brought her own distinct vision and ideas to ‘Barbie’ (9:43) and how they felt about the divisive third hour of Christopher Nolan’s ‘Oppenheimer’ (29:01). Finally, they talk about the first two episodes of ‘Special Ops: Lioness,’ a distinctly Taylor Sheridan show (59:55). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He's a Barbie girl in an Oppenheimer world. It's Andy Greenwald! But you're the opposite. I am an Oppenheimer boy. Yeah.

In a Barbie world. Yeah. See, I don't accept labels. Yeah. I mean, honestly, neither do I. You know, this is not a Fugazi t-shirt. You know what I mean? Like, this is, I'm much like Joe Manchin.

No labels. You are so much like Joe Manchin. I'm so excited. Even your third-party spoiler candidacy cannot ruin this day for me. Today on The Watch podcast, Barbie. Yep. Oppenheim. Yeah.

This is potentially the most full of content podcast we've ever done. And I want the listeners to know that Chris Ryan has his legs up. Well, I love it. It's one o'clock. We usually record earlier. I'm feeling pretty groovy. Guys, it's 90 degrees plus. Chris is wearing.

heavy cords, corduroy pants, and a long-sleeve shirt. You're wearing shorts and a t-shirt, but I have an image to uphold. I understand. That's why my shirt says drug church. It's like mocking me. We could start in so many different places. Let's just talk about where we're at as a popular culture. Chris, there is nothing ambiguous about the success of this weekend.

I feel like for us as a country, for us as a culture, for this town of Hollywood, despite its present labor unrest to which I am a party. I am just very happy about this. I saw two great movies, very excited about them. I'm very excited about the specific things that make them great, the different things that make them great, and also the fact that both made a fuck ton of money. And I think that the biggest reason for my happiness is that...

You have Mattel stock. No, but I am trying to get an EP credit on Polly Pocket. neither of these movies are sequels. Neither of these movies are comic book movies. And we'll get into the branded IP nature of Barbie for sure. But unimpeachably, unambiguously, these are worthwhile, interesting, thoughtful movies made by filmmakers who were given free reign to do things that were unconventional

and surprising and idiosyncratic, and they were rewarded with boatloads of cash. Yeah. And I think it's really exciting. And I really don't think we can overstate the potential trickle-down effect from this should writers and actors ever work again. I was on the big picture to talk about Oppenheimer

and we talked a little bit about the alchemy that happens when there is a critical groundswell for a movie or two films in this case. That's also met with a wildfire of, word of mouth. Yep. And like the way it kind of reminds me of like when the fugitive came out or when Jurassic Park came out and critics were coming out and saying like, holy shit, they did it.

And then everybody who saw it like in the opening weekend was like, I got to go see that movie three more times in the theater. And that's how I kind of feel about both of these movies. I can't wait to see both of them again in the theater. And yeah, I've been trying to articulate what it is that they did that they share, you know, what these two filmmakers did that they share. And so much of it is like, these movies feel super big. They feel huge.

And I don't mean like you have to see them on a wide screen, although I would definitely recommend a certain kind of viewing experience for Oppenheimer. But they feel in a way they like, they dwarf a lot of the movies that we've seen over the last couple of years in terms of like their scope and their imagination and the stories that they're telling. I agree. I would say from the last rave that I gave about a movie a week or two ago about Mission Impossible, I would say that Mission Impossible was successful because it did many, many, many predictable things very artfully and exceptionally. There were no moments in that movie that surprised me.

There were just many that thrilled and entertained me. And that's no small thing. That's fantastic. But I would almost begin by saying about Barbie and Oppenheimer that both movies have just weird turkeys of scenes in the middle of them or surprises or whatever. And that feeling is so increasingly unfamiliar because that feeling is when you come up against someone's personal decision. Yeah. Someone felt strongly about this scene. Someone felt very motivated for this joke.

And it stayed in. And I think that matters. I mean, I genuinely feel like my experience seeing both of these movies was really noteworthy for me because I came in with some preconceptions. I tried not to read much about either of them. And Oppenheimer is slightly different. You had a preconception about Barbie. Let's be clear. I didn't know what it was.

I had no idea what it was. For Oppenheimer, I mean, it's a Nolan film. And if you speak Nolan, you're going to feel relatively comfortable there, even though I think that it is in some ways his most out there movie. And I love that. Yeah. I love that about it. But, yeah, maybe this comment is more directed to Barbie.

And I want to own something here. Like, I sat in this chair. I think you were like, this is a career killer. That trailer was awful. I thought it was awful. And one of the reasons it was awful, I think, I mean, it was a hedge. It was a, here are the broadest, most comedic beats about this. But the reason why they did that is because, A, early trailers always do that.

But B, I find it, I don't even know how you would communicate what this movie is. It is so deeply strange. It is so personal to Greta Gerwig as a filmmaker. It is so stylistically different from everything we've been spoon fed for the last few years that it definitely took me even when watching it, 10, 15 minutes to be like, Oh, we're doing this? And then you relax into it. And that's an experience that I often only have watching Criterion movies, frankly.

Now, I'm not saying Barbie, first of all, Barbie will 100% be on the Criterion Collection in 10 years. But what I mean is it's not like that much of a challenging art film, but I just mean that it was someone's, their fingerprints of one woman all over this movie. Yeah. It's so cool. I think it's really easy to be cynical about fandom right now. This is one thing I wanted to talk to you about. because obviously over the last five, six years especially, I think we've witnessed the rise of a very toxic strain of fandom,

both in the sort of not so latent misogyny that's involved in it. We've also witnessed a kind of over-emphasis on a hyper-engaged, hyper-vocal strata of fan that can dictate seemingly the creative decisions of filmmaking choices or storytelling choices. and also like a weird kind of like we're seriously only making this so that it can trigger a few it's like almost like a mouse eating cheese reaction so we're gonna put John Krasinski is gonna be in

this movie as Reed Richards just because we know you like it because the internet wanted it yeah the internet wanted it and something really interesting happened or I noticed something at Barbie on Thursday which is that like obviously I'm sure like you're screening that you saw I went to go see it in Glendale

and it was full of people wearing pink and it was full of people like therefore like in big groups having like the time of their life watching this movie and for a second I was like that's strange I consider myself pretty observant

I did not know there were that many Barbie the toy fans in the like out and about in Los Angeles like maybe I just like you know I just didn't notice before but like it didn't seem that way. That's very Ken of you. But what I realized is that a lot of the people who are doing that are already or were already

fans of this movie. Now, I don't know that they had seen it before, but obviously you spoke to the trailer. The buildup and the hype and like the excitement around the film minted fans before people even walked into the theater in a way that melted my heart. Like I seriously was like, this is pretty cool. I can't believe something out of nowhere like this that doesn't have the infrastructure

and the scaffolding of Iron Man will eventually recruit Hulk and I've been waiting for that for 30 years. They were like fans of like, I've seen enough of this movie in the trailer to know that this is a movie for me. Well, let's go through it on a couple levels. Let's start with Barbie clearly.

That's more financially successful. And I think more relevant to modern energy policy. Yeah. Energy policy. And disarmament, yeah. Yeah, that's right. We actually, yeah, she's like the early tracking numbers, and they were like, show it to Einstein.

Like, is Barbie going to destroy the world? Let's go through a bunch of that. You and I grew up at a time when... And we should say we're probably going to spoil parts of Barbie going forward. Yes. And parts of our open up and are. He successfully tested and then they detonated a nuclear device. I feel confident in spoiling that one.

We grew up in a time when summer blockbusters were meaningful and significant and felt almost bigger than they were. You mentioned a couple of them, not just, but you were mentioning some critically claimed ones. There was always a feeling and it's definitely tied to the era

and our ages and like schools out, grab the issue of entertainment weekly or whatever and be like, now I see what my, it's like, this is my map for the next three months. And you'd get sucked up in the hype and there would be, and that was fun.

It was fun to ride the roller coaster even if movies were. Yeah, the Independence Day would almost be as big as July 4th. Yeah, and you and your friends would go, to movies and you'd have whatever. It was a fun event and that has kind of been felt like it's frittered away and part of that obviously is coming out of the pandemic and things. So the marketing does matter. The feeling that this was an important event does matter. And you and I are often

clamoring for that kind of like shared experience. I think it's great. I think it's fun and the joy people were getting from seeing this movie once or twice even in an opening weekend, bringing their mothers, bringing their daughters, bringing their kids, whatever. Like that is awesome. I also though feel like there is such it's not just, I feel like they're not just a fan of this movie. Like, I kind of can't believe what she pulled off. I also don't think I finished my Mia Colpa. Like, I was super wrong

about the trailer. I deeply apologize to Greta Gerwig, whose career is so much more than my dismissive comment ever should have suggested because, Jesus Christ, has anyone ever written their own ticket like this before? I don't know. But I'm sort of in awe

of how she walked into every meeting, I assume, and said this is what this is going to be. Because a Barbie movie, and I think maybe she saw this as an opportunity, not a challenge, is a meaningless construct. It doesn't mean anything. They're a toy company.

They make toys. What is the story? What is the reason for doing it? That she found a reason to make this movie and that she made it so profoundly feminist in a way that was hilarious and, I think, frankly, important. And also, despite, you know, online cranks,

very inclusive and kind. Mm-hmm. I think she did so many things at once. She, first of all, this is a big screen comedy in a moment when everyone's like, what do, what do comedies mean anymore? This was a fucking comedy. And it didn't really feel like a comedy that was written by like a Minions writer room. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but like where it's just like 12 comedians being like,

here's a bit, here's a bit, here's a bit, here's a bit, here's a bit. It was actually like the comedy came out of like, I am writing these characters. This didn't come from a Mannion's writer's room. Like, we are not the correct vessels to argue the feminist bonus. of this movie, but they are profound and they are resonant throughout the entire film. And like, one thing that I could not get over, and that once I realized it was happening, it just made me happier and happier to be watching the movie was, nobody cares about origin stories.

Nobody cares about the magical whatever the fuck you need to get from one dimension to another. Let's move on and tell the story you want to tell. The conceit of the movie, which sounds real dumb when you say it out loud, is that Barbies are dolls in the world, but there's also a different reality where the Barbies that are being played within the world live in perpetual sunshine. Yeah, there's a connection between

the dolls in the real world and the dolls that are real people in Barbie land. And that there is a porous border that you can cross if you drive a car, sing indigo girls, ride on a bike, rollerblade, etc., etc., into reality.

Yeah. Mattel and the FBI know about this. it's happened before, let's move on. Right. That in one fell swoop, it just like, just swept away the fucking Infinity Stone saga from my brain. Now, I like those movies. There are a lot of podcasts of me liking those movies. But boy, did it feel good not to have to care about that shit anymore.

Sure. About all the legwork and the brickwork, now I'm talking about the Lego movie, to get there, you know. It was refreshing. It was just a different point of view that I really, really relished. Yeah, I mean, so I guess, you know, I was talking a little bit about the cynicism melting away. I didn't really have any going into it, but just whatever I had going into it, I think, was largely rooted in the corporate rock still sucks kind of world. And I say this as somebody who's worked for corporations for my entire life. But the idea that somebody who I regard so highly as an artist and Greta Gerwig, not.

selling out. I mean, it's just, but like making something that would be an active commercial for a product. Did you have that going in and how did you feel afterwards? Yes, I definitely had that going in. I mean, I think everyone remembers my very optimistic rant in the wake of that New Yorker article that sprang from the pre-Barby hype about how Mattel is not a toy company anymore. It's an IP factory and they're open for business. I feel odd because this is a Greta a Gerwig movie. This is not Spancon. And what she did with the opportunity

wasn't necessarily in my eyes to service a brand. It wasn't Trojan horsing, which is a phrase we over... It's a little bit telling on ourselves how much we use that as a potentially good thing. You know, if you could just sneak in a couple good ideas under the rubric of, you know, the Kang continuum, then like

then, you know, we've won. Because ultimately we can't make a difference in the world, but we could just like make a couple good... get a couple jabs in. This is 100% of Greta Gerwig movie. And what she did with it was she completely rebranded the brand. What Mattel and Warner Brothers do with this going forward, who knows? What toys come out of this?

Who knows? That wasn't her concern. But to take the fundamental idea of Barbie, which has been, as the movie talks about, a battleground for our own cultural and societal concerns and fears and hopes and everything since it was created and say, this is at the root of this doll, and this doll can be and do anything was staggering. It was really staggering to me.

I would also say one thing that I don't think I understood about her as a filmmaker and I think this is also kind of a gendered way to have considered it was that we are coming off of 20 plus years, right, of every next generation of great filmmakers just using their bully pulpit

or using their opportunities to relitigate their childhoods. Whether it's Quentin Tarantino with Kung Fu movies and all the 70s cinema that influenced him, or more specifically what I'm talking about as J.J. Abrams being like,

I'm just going to, the same way Ken's job is Beach, J.J. Abrams' job is Spielberg. I'm just going to make homageous to Spielberg. And then the sort of descendants of that of like Colin Trevereaux being like, I just want to play with these toys. I just want to play with these toys.

Greta Gerwig is doing that too. But she's doing it with her childhood, whether it's Lady Bird, which is literally her childhood, little women, which is her favorite book. Here's a doll she played with and next she's going to do the books that she loved. more books that she loved in Narnea.

It's pretty interesting. It doesn't make it necessarily as artistically moving to me as a... Yeah, I don't know what it says about our moment right now that all of our great visual storytellers don't want to engage with the moment head on.

I mean, I think that Barbie engages with the moment. I think it definitely does. I don't think that Barbie is without flaws and I don't think that I'm fully past the sort of corporate tie-in. of it. I thought a lot about

how we've talked for years of... You and I have the running dialogue about like the Trojan horse and it's like you're going to have to play the game a little bit but when you play the game it's up to you what you're also going to deliver underneath. And, you know, I don't think that a Greta Gerwig movie about the problematic

long-term effects of the patriarchy and the powers of feminism would have been able to get made straight up. You know? Like, Greta Gerwig can't make that movie just like without a selling point without it being put inside of something. Yes, but it's also an incredible box

to, I choose that phrase intentionally, to put in such a frankly funny and savage satire of American mandam or just being a guy. American Kendom. American Kendom. It's funny. Yeah.

It's really funny. And it's real... Also, it's... You know what else is funny? It's just like... Fucking right-wing snowflakes being like, how dare you, ma'am?

It's like one movie making fun of the behavior generally of some men. Yeah. How many movies have there been made by men over the years? At least like, what, 60?

70 movies made by men? I don't know. I should ask Sean. But like, one is going to upset you that much? Come on. You fucking break. You should participate

in the movies made by men draft on the big picture. So just the movie drafts? Right. Right. You're right. I mean, I think that there's, I think maybe the inverse is the way to frame it. Like there are emotional beats and story ideas and just the struggle of being a person concepts in this movie that are in all of her movies.

And she didn't steer away from them and she ran right towards them. And she's found them. Also like a evolutionary step that she takes here as like a visual filmmaker as somebody who obviously. had a much bigger budget. Little Women's Incredible, Lady Bird's incredible. I'm not trying to diminish those movies. And my praise of Barbie, but the... But many great filmmakers have...

Totality of the vision of Barbie and, like, everything from the color scheme to the costuming, to the editing, to obviously working with Mark Ronson to have this huge original music component. Some of which I... Like, that's not like my favorite kind of music, but it worked for the movie, you know? It was just like a 360 dunk. of a filmmaking performance from her. Yeah, also she, and we were talking about this a little bit with,

we were talking about Christopher McCrory, like it is always fun to watch movies made by people who love movies when they're allowed to demonstrate their love for movies. Like her affection for big screen musicals, whether they're singing in the rain or all the way to all that jazz. I mean, you see elements of that. And in so doing, she gave these performers the opportunity to be performers in a way that a lot of modern movies don't.

Marvel movies ask you to not, eat carbs for a while and be snarky to be in them, right? But traditionally, movie stars could do more than that. They could be genuinely winning or emotional. They could sing and dance. They could be in on the joke. They could be above, rise above the joke. And like, Gosling in this is incredible. Yeah. He's absolutely incredible every scene that he's in. And he sings and he dances like he used to on the Mickey Mouse Club. And he owns it with a degree that is just so fun to see. And who else is giving him that opportunity? And Margot Robbie, who's an actor who I think, think is...

Nicholas Wending Ruffin, by the way, is the answer to your question. Good call. Because the humor in drive, I remember, is really the most memorable part of it. It has some musical elements. It has a lot of... It has good music. Yeah.

But Margot Robbie, this is also... She's unquestionably talented and charismatic, and I've liked her in Wolf of Wall Street, and I like her performance as Harley Quinn, even though I don't like those movies. Did you see Babylon? No, I haven't seen Babylon. And you've seen Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, obviously.

And you didn't see asteroids. city, right? Not yet, no. Okay. But there's a, there's a caniness to this where she's just like, she knows what she's good at. And she as an executive producer of this movie who clearly fought for Greta at every step of the way, like showcasing the best of her abilities, because she's fantastic in this, too. She's doing what the best movie stars do. They work with the best fault makers. They make sure that they're like, I'm working with somebody who's going to like, yeah, they're going to feature me as a performer and they're going to feature me as a star. But like, my cue rating is going to go up because I'm going to be part of the best movies.

That is, that's true, but I'll yes and that to say that there are examples of really good actors who work with the best filmmakers to be challenged, which is important part of it. That filmmaker will force me out of my comfort zone or whatever. Yeah, it's like Tom Cruise working with Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah, or Cameron Diaz and Gangs of New York or something. But like, this is such a different type of symbiotic relationship where you get the sense, or at least the proof is in the final product that Greta and Margo

understand what makes each other great and they allowed each other to be great in a way that transcends some of the other things that they've done. I'm super into it. I did a 180 within the first 10 minutes. Yeah. Dude, it's really funny.

The jokes were good. Will Ferrell's back. The great thing about the majority of the jokes in that movie, too, are it realizes that like the humor is really in the details. So, like, for instance, like, there's an entire sequence where Ken goes to Century City, where he realizes how amazing it is to be a man and the patriarchy's benefits.

And the Century City is the best place he's ever been. Century City is the best place he's ever been. And guys are giving each other fist bumps and working out and driving Hummers. And, like... He's watching video of Bill Clinton. I mean... He's taking books about trucks. Out of the library.

The entire sequence at the end where they unbring... brainwash the Barbies from the patriarchal rule of the kendom is incredible. And not just because of the Snyderverse jokes, not just because of the, let me explain the Godfather to you, not just the Stephen Malcolm's joke, which thank you. Just thank you everyone. It's important to be seen in a movie like Barbie. But like the Matchbox 20 song and like the little details, like Will Farrell in his board meeting with pink drumsticks to coordinate it.

But like there's such a good spirit throughout the whole thing. You know, it did something, the narration, the insane 2001 opening, the Helen Mirren stopping it to be like Margot Robbie, to the filmmakers, Margo Robbie is not a good avatar for this argument that plain looking people can be worthwhile. Yeah. All those things in the wrong hands, if they're deployed, they could be really off-putting. But it leaned into, I think, to bring it back to your original point, what the movie has become culturally, which is kind of celebratory. And that in and of itself is a very different thing. So what this movie looks and feels like when it's on TV, whatever that means, whether it's streaming or just you catch it when you're flipping channels like Larry Sanders show.

When you're watching it on Kingdom 2,9 one day? That would be a respite. Speaking of which, this is not a spoiler for hijack. What are you fucking watching? Hi, Barbie! There's a moment. We're going to talk about hijack on Thursday. There's a moment late in the series when the screens flicker back to light.

for a minute. Just a note, like, if I was in hour five of a hijacking, I would not be that psyched to have my rerun of two and a half men come back on. You know what I mean? I would be more measured, I think, in my response. I love this Brooklyn Nine-nine. Thank God. Of the three episodes available for me to watch on this long flight.

I think I just mean, like, when you rob these moment movies of the context, then you start to look at what the filmmaking is and the movie is and what it's and I look you know that'll be a spirited debate perhaps for the big picture podcast at some point but for what this was it met the moment you know in in a pretty thrilling way and you know look as a as a father of daughters and as the son of a female aunt yes nephew of isn't that what will feral says yeah this movie really it i think it does kind of matter like i'm i'm very excited for my older daughter to see it and this may be an unfair question especially the vibes given the vibes Did you see any flaws in it?

Did you think it was a flawless movie? See, no, but that's sort of, I think my hedge was saying, like, we'll see when we take it away from the shock of the new and the celebratory moment. I think that I'm sure there are things. I started by saying one of my favorite aspects of the movie is that it yada, yada, you know, basic linear reality and narrative. I love that about the movie. I found that to be a breath of fresh air, just the way it visually told the story and just breeze to the things that it wanted to show. show us and that it was interested in. Again, in a second viewing, those might be more challenging. But again, it was sort of hard to, I watched it like I was watching a magic trick.

And nothing really bumped me in this because I was delighted and surprised. And those are feelings that I haven't felt to that degree in a theater in a while. Okay. You want to run through some flaws? No, not really. I mean, there were parts of it that didn't hit for me. Like, I don't really think that the Rio Perlman part, like, connected with me. I think maybe having the inventor of Barbie also be God is like a... Well, she was a ghost. Sure. Yeah.

But she had quite a few powers. Is the Noah Bombach Arrasier really getting to you? Yeah. Like the real the man behind the curtain of Barbie? Yeah. That's not the take we're going to do. I get that. And I thought that the America Ferrero part was essentially like

engineered for her to do what she does at the end and give that speech, but is not like a real character. But like... I guess the thing that also got me is... But that's like those are... We could go through Oppenheimer and make the same like sort of like, that's not a real character or like this didn't work for me too.

It's not... Well, Rea Perlman is sort of plays the role that Niels Bohr plays in Oppenheimer, I believe, you know, when it shows up and is like, is it big enough? I guess I'll just say that this is, this might be something too where I once was like you. I have no functional knowledge of

or interest in Barbie. That was, now the G.I. Joe movie, you know, that was my... Yeah, I mean, obviously. That was our text. Well-versed in Cobra's. And the Transformers' verse,

I thought was very accurate. But absolutely none until I have daughters who, you know, neither of whom, like, they will not wear dresses. My older daughter only wears black, but they still like to play

with Barbie and make fun of Ken. Like, that is so inherent to their understanding of the world that, like, playing with these dolls. I don't think I knew that. I don't think I knew that that Ken was like the punching bag of the Barbie verse.

Yes. Oh, I know. And I was explained. I thought he just had an ass got and he just like chilled out. No, everyone hates it. And like I meant, I was explaining to my daughters were dubious of this movie. And they were like, oh, but Ken's in it. And I was like, oh, Ken's kind.

That's kind of the joke. And they were riveted. And there was a long pause. My younger daughter said, we ripped Ken's head off. So that was leaning into the thing. And I would say also to the America Frere, thing, the Barbies that the girls are playing with with their moms. You know, like that, like there is that connection. Yeah. So that was kind of moving for me to see from a distance.

Well, I'll show myself out. I guess I'm the asshole. From my mojo dojo. Look, now we can do the thing. So basically, us now pivoting to talk about Oppenheimer is kind of like what happens in the third act of Barbie. What do you mean? Now it's a kendom again. Oh yeah. That's right. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a little. a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment

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Do you feel like these two movies in your mind are, like, were you able to separate the two films? Yeah. Or were you thinking about them in comparison to one another? No. I mean, I thought, genuinely, and people know that I am not often without cynicism or being jaded about things, but like, I thought it was so fucking cool that they're both out and making it, and doing really well. And again, I'm not looking at, I believe it's called X now, which, uh, just a cool, cool website. The thing that I like to do when I buy something for billions of dollars is just destroy it so utterly. It looks like that part of New Mexico where the Trinity test happens.

I think that's just smart business guy. But I'm not paying attention to that discourse. My 500,000-foot view of this seems to be that people are psyched about both. The people involved in both are psyched about both. That's the unique thing is I don't remember the last time. I mean, oftentimes during an award season, two movies will get. pit against one another. Yes, I want to talk about that.

Sometimes you'll have like, what's the box office king this weekend or whatever? Is it Sound of Freedom or Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning? Well, if your dollars could speak, I think we'd all know. I have not seen Sound of Freedom. I just want to make sure that's clear. But your ears are pricked for the sound.

You're interested. Yeah. Does Mark Ronson have anything to do with the Sound of Freedom? It's rare that two films come out on a Friday, whatever, and have that same kind of like passionate audience. passionate critical response. I really believe this, that it's like,

it is related to people's desire. Although Anthony Lane was a little bit like, eh, about Barbie. I mean, he's who I want to hear on this topic. You know? Everybody shut down. Tony? Tony's on the line.

I really do think it has to do with the fact that these are personal statements. These are unique properties. You know, they went for it with these movies. A couple weeks ago when I was despairing over

Indiana Jones, and I was saying I just believe that there is an appetite for more original types of filmed entertainment. I wasn't saying I'm shocked that the English didn't go on number one on Prime's rankings, you know, or that Irma VEP was in HBO's most lauded series of last year. Like, I have no illusions about some of the more, let's say, artistic stuff that I like. I don't think that's mass market. I don't think that would be more successful if only it had been on a different platform or gotten different marketing. What I was saying was, I think movies like this feel more intentional and more interesting and more compelling and more rewarding and more rewarding than The Flash. That's simply what I was saying.

I think that's what I meant. I don't know if that's actually what I said. And I choose to look at this as a victory. I think that these two movies are about things that really matter and that are really present in our lives. And the ideas that are in Oppenheimer and the ideas of them in Barbie are very relevant to being a person in 2023, even if they're sent to a fantasy land. are set in the 1940s and 50s. And I think when you go and see a lot of superhero movies, they make

gestures towards like, this is about how family is important, or this is about how like you have to heal trauma by doing this. But they're not. They're about the fucking multiverse and they're about like the Infinity Stones. And all the McGuffins that these movies claim to sort of just be using his window dressing

are the window. Like that's, that is the thing that these movies have become about now. And they're not really about oh, this is really telling me something. They're spectacles, and it's fine. Also, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Also, these are big, big swings with big movie stars released in a big, noisy way as events.

People love that shit. It's not to blame the system. Like, the history of Hollywood is always... Think about how many expensive movies we've come out of now and been like, that looked like shit. Most of them. Yeah. They didn't finish it.

No one doesn't use CG. Like, he doesn't do it. So it feels different. You know what I mean? And the Barbie thing was, it was very, you know, it was production design. It was costume. It was music. There were weird little animated squiggles on the screen.

Who cares? It was personalized. It had texture and a point of view. Yeah. I just feel like, what I was going to say was, you go through the history of Hollywood, and it is always business people trying to put guardrails on creative ambition for their own bottom lines, which I'm not against.

That makes sense. That's their job. And if something works, you do the thing that works. You just keep doing the thing that works. I could proclaim that this is a sea change. I don't actually have any insider knowledge. I would just hope that there will be maybe a, hopefully an overreaction to the success of this.

Yeah. The secret to last summer's box office success wasn't Tom Cruise in a movie. It was that movie and everything that went into it that made it special and the moment, right? Like, I'm not saying there isn't a formula, but I don't think it's the formula everyone thought it was. Yeah, I mean, I hope that if there's anything

that comes out of these two films, it's that Hollywood or whoever makes an effort to try and find the next Jordan Peel, the next Greta Gerwig, the next Christopher Nolan out there who want to tell big quasi-original stories in this manner that emphasize and centralize the big screenings.

experience. And don't try to make him do Jurassic Park 9. Yeah. Like, now, to be fair, Nolan made his bones making those Batman movies, but that was a different era and those were different types of movies. Okay, so Oppenheimer, which it's been a week. I wish, you know, I said this at the time when the three of us, we saw with, with our buddy, Sean Fantasy, when we emerged blinking and forever changed into the late evening sun of Universal CityWalk. Stumbling into Margaritaville. Stumbled into Margaritaville, not a metaphor. I wish we could have

podcasted right then. Yeah. Because it was that exciting. I mean, the beer was that cold. It was so cold and so big. And seeing Dave Matthews perform with Jimmy Buffett in a video from the early 90s

was really special. I will treasure that experience and not just because of the company. I will treasure getting to see that movie on IMAX 70 in Universal City for the rest of my life. And I will remember the Trinity

sequence and several other parts of that film. But even the quote unquote quieter moments or the quote unquote throwaway moments, like there are overhead shots of the New Mexico desert that are really just in there because we're transitioning their action to a different location and took my breath away. Like it is honestly like a breathtaking experience to see Oppenheimer on a big screen. And I found myself so I've been thinking about it. it pretty much non-stop since we saw it. Like the ideas, the history, the sort of tide of history that sweep the sky up, all the things

that are happening in the film. I know that there has been some debate about the third hour. I'm sure we are going to do that right now. So if you haven't seen Oppenheimer yet, I tried to go see it a second time this weekend, and I could not find a ticket in Los Angeles. That's cool. Yeah. But if you haven't seen Oppenheimer, you should stop listening or skip ahead until we discussed

the new Taylor-Share show. All the great masters. Because we're going to spoil a bit. Let me begin by saying after everything that happened last year at award season and the movie we just talked about what a relief it was to watch a movie that could have been called men talking. Finally. No, I loved this experience also.

I said to you at the time, I had never seen a movie in IMAX. I in fact, didn't understand because my only IMAX experiences had been going to the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia as a kid when that state, that theater opened. And the only IMAX movies I thought were movies were like half dome experiences of like, welcome to Philadelphia, which I loved even though it wasn't that much to show. Like, oh, that's the Mutter Museum? Great. Can we get closer into that enlarged tumor? And then like stuff about the world of the Mayans. So I didn't understand just the scope of it and the nature of it. And I have made many jokes about seeing Christopher Nolan movies on the backs of seats on Delta planes. I'd like to apologize to him as well. A lot of them bea cul-c was for you today. I'm nothing if not transparent.

Sure. Yeah, that's true. This was, I mean, it was an incredible experience. I can't imagine what the experience would be like if you saw it. Not necessarily, you don't have to see it in IMAX, but if you did see it with a poor sound system, not to be that guy. But the reason I begin with that is because I don't know if,

it made me reflect on two things. One, I don't know if there's ever been a major filmmaker whom I really, really like that I have felt absolutely less in common with. than Christopher Nolan. Which is to say, I don't mean that I'm friends with other filmmakers,

but I feel like almost every other filmmaker that I really, really respect and change with. Do you think there should have been more Stephen Malcolm's jokes on Oppenheimer? Well, that would have helped. No, but I mean, you know, I just feel like there's always something, I'm like, oh, that's a shared reference point,

or I sort of emotionally kind of understand that. And I've never felt that way with his movies because they are so relentlessly technical and so heady. And in some ways, you know, show offy is a pejorative way of saying that's just visually demonstrative in a way that I don't always vibe with.

The thing about this movie, and I do think this is an exceptional example of it compared to some of his other films, is the way that we saw it allowed me to understand that the visual storytelling... It's like, oh, that's what you guys were talking about. Yes, but specifically, the visual storytelling and the sound design, that's his emotional language.

Yeah. That's where the feeling is for him. And that brought the whole thing to life for me in a different way. and frankly, I mean, you guys, you know this and like saying this to Sean too, that just broadly, I prefer, I think I prefer it when his storytelling is in the service of more, not reality, but like Dunkirk, I am that guy. I think Dunkirk is probably his best movie up to this point. And so him pouring everything that he's learned making these other types of movies and everything that motivates him into this story was jaw-dropping. and exhilarating and inspiring. Yeah.

And for two hours, I was like, is this one of the best movies I've ever seen? And then my pullback is not, I'm sure you've had experiences like this too, that when you come that close to the flame with something,

not the filmmaker, because this is unquestionably the movie he wanted to make, but when you have that experience watching something, when you're like, oh my God, this is my favorite thing, I think,

and then you get a little white knuckly being like, hold it, hold it. And then the filmmaker or steers in a different direction, does not discredit the work, which I think is maybe more challenging than I even, I think I may come around on the third hour, but part of my response was that very subjective disappointment of like, oh, it's going there. Okay. Yeah, I think that you and I have had ever since Christmas, you know, we've had this sort of running debate about, are you evaluating art on what it's showing you or what it didn't show you? Like the choice that

they made and you're like, okay, this is the choice you made. you've decided to make this now more or less a courtroom drama with Robert Downey Jr. ostensibly the co-lead of the movie after he has been more of a narrator and a kind of story engine for the first two-thirds. And I've given a lot of thought as to what the third hour of Oppenheimer could have been or what the two-and-a-half-hour version of Oppenheimer would be if after the Trinity test it was sort of a coda about like what happened after that. And ultimately, like, this is the story he wanted to tell. He wanted to tell a much bigger story about the emergence of like a sort of bureaucratic military, industrial complex, deep state kind of rising out of this

Second World War where America becomes a superpower. Also the difference between theory and practice. Yeah. Because the ambiguity that defined Oppenheimer's life and work does not exist in the, yeah, in a global war economy. And there are several great films. that the first time I've watched them peaked somewhere in the middle. Apocalypse now. Lawrence of Arabia.

In some ways, honestly, like, the first time I saw Goodfellas, I was like, how do you top the... Like, Layla ends the movie in some ways. Yes. You know, like, when you watch Heat, the bank robbery, like, ends the movie, and then there's an hour of them

sort of driving around in circles being like, I gotta fucking get this guy. I didn't know you'd seen that movie. But, like, that's like, you wind up then on repeat view. loving the part of the movie that didn't match the energy of the first half as much as you love the first half. And I suspect lots of people will eventually come around on the other part of Oppenheimer. I think that that is almost certainly true. I think that's a really good point

to make and a really good observation. The movie is so huge, quite literally when you see it, at the size of the screen we saw, that to just digest it in one go is kind of impossible. I think that there was a, one of the things that I was also responding to was, and it was interesting talking to Sean about it because I think Sean has read or is reading American Prometheus, the biography that really was the source for all the details. Yeah. And it was what inspired Nolan to make the movie. There was a feeling that I got of dedication and devotion to a preexisting material that began to feel like someone was. was showing me their work, as opposed to just vibing on what they were responding to, because there are so many details and so much adherence to what I believe is either the historical record

or at least the record as portrayed in that book, that that started to overwhelm me at the end, that it sort of got bogged. It fell back down to earth, which marks, you know, that mirrors Oppenheimer's own journey. Sure. But I guess I just found that also the didacticism of that last part of it's just like, he's now unfairly being maligned and the way that it's portrayed with, especially once the heel turn is revealed by straws,

it felt it felt more binary than a movie that was trying to argue. It's interesting that you said that. I did not feel that way. I think I left that movie being like, that's one of the more complicated and multifaceted main characters of a major film that I've seen in a while. Of Oppenheimer or Strauss.

I mean, like, Oppenheimer names names, you know, possibly at times that he didn't, necessarily need to. Like Oppenheimer is responsible for mass murder. You know, like, I didn't walk out of that film being like, I'm glad that guy got his rep restored. That was cool, you know? Like... Yes. And the movie

does not, to its credit, I think, doesn't argue that. Yeah. And I think that the ethical and moral questions that the movie asks about science and scientists' responsibility for their creations. And that's where all the Einstein stuff comes in, which may be too cute, but is also like, fucking, like, an incredible notion and it says a lot about the current horrors of the world that nuclear holocaust is not at the top of my power rankings, but I certainly walked out of that thinking about it again.

There's also such beautiful attention paid to the moment that birthed him and birthed this horror into the world. All the historical. There's an incredible, the beginning is really incredible. It's a sensory almost overload in the best possible way. But the implication, of it is that the thing that quieted young Oppenheimer's massive brain from going supernova was seeing things that made sense to him in the world, like Picasso.

Yeah. Like listening to Rights of Spring. Like the moment... Right, like reading the wasteland. Yes, the moments in the middle of the 20th century where it felt like there was some punctuation being put at the end of history and that it was all going to break. Yeah. And so seeing that that idea that in a way he was...

was an artist, was beautifully communicated and really powerful. And then, you know, he isn't an artist because he is responsible for the destruction of two cities and countless other deaths and everything that kind of spiraled out afterwards, including, you know, I think to your point, a lot of the way we talk about these things, the politics that we still have and that we're still marred by. I heard a, I know you love it when I introduced new podcasts into my regime, but I was listening to The New Yorker Radio Hour. Well, it was on vacation. And it's been rough. It's a really good point. Kai Bird, who's one of the co-authors of American Prometheus,

and I think he gets a script credit or a story by credit on this, on the movie. I think it's just adapted from the book. Yeah, I think it's... His name is... I think he gets something. But regardless, obviously it was adapted from his book. And to hear him tell it, he feels like since 1954, since the access hearings, that still has a ripple effect today

in the sense that we don't really have public scientists being public intellectuals, giving their voice. everything is... When they do, it doesn't quite work out for them. Then they mention the name Fouchy. Yeah. But right, but there's a direct line you can draw to all that. I want to get into some of the specifics of the movie, too,

because the performances in the cast... Yeah. It's... Did you like Downey? I know you didn't like the third hour, but did you like Downey? I love Downey. Seeing Downey act again is like one of... So, you know what I was like, Greta Gerwig's saved comedy? Like, this movie gave us Downey back.

Yeah. And he clearly... wants to be back, but he is one of our great screen actors. Yeah, the fact that he's doing this and sympathizer, I'm like, you're fucking back, homie. You did it. He's so... And downy's dream cars, which...

Which is also fine. But you know, when, you know, speaking of our favorite on hiatus podcast, but when Bill is talking about why Damien Lillard isn't going to sit out or pout or be petulant like Philadelphia 76 or James Hardin might, it's because the thing he always says is, this guy just fucking

loves basketball. It's because he knows he's going to Boston. Exactly. But he always says, like, oh, this guy loves basketball. He just doesn't have it. The thing of Downey is he loves acting. And to see him be in this movie, 100% understand where he is on the call sheet. 100% understand that he's playing a man

who is close to his actual age or older. And within those parameters, still devour every scene he's in with gusto and, like, in live and everything. He's been telling a story on the promo circuit, which obviously is over now, but he was telling a story on the promo circuit about one day being in the backseat of like a, you know, era-specific car, a historically

accurate car, and the director of photography and Nolan's sitting up a shot and, you know, they're shooting on a black and white IMAX film that was made specially by Kodak for Nolan for this movie. And they had to go do something else. So they had Downey sitting in the back seat, getting ready to be on camera, hold them. the mag of film that they had and he was like I basically went back in time to being

in a chaplain movie or being in a, you know, like an early like this is how we did it back then and his clear adoration for that process and for that moment made me so I felt so warmly towards him

for that. It was really cool because I do think that in the same way when you're just joking about the NBA but it's like the stars of the NBA have a response that they're custodians of the game like the biggest actors that we have are custodians of our film experience I love that and I would also say I mean I have taken shots at him in the past about his like his is very you know Catholic opinionated way of being a filmmaker but hearing killing Murphy when he was on Marin talking about being in a Nolan movie what makes

it different oh tanks what's that tanks do you want to shoot you want to do it they do talk about you too um killing Murphy's like to Joshua Tree Man it's a great record. Deeply spiritual record. Maren's like, it's kind of spiritual, is it? Killing Burney's like, you think? That's the whole fucking thing. Anyway, he says something that I had no idea about.

Maybe you know this more than I do, but like when Nolan makes movies, he doesn't have video village, which is like the little tent with the screens that usually the director sits behind with headphones on watching the shot on the screen and then gets up and like says cut and comes in. So no video village.

Also, he says in all the movies he's made with him, he's only had to go in for ADR once, which is the additional dialogue recording because you either didn't get it on the day or you've changed your mind about what characters need to say. Because he's taking care of the sound exactly how he wants it. I'd say that they could have used a couple more ADR sessions in some of his films.

But also, well, the Tom Hardy ones, for sure. Yeah. Do you feel like this would have been better served if the Trinity test happens and you hear Robert Downey's voice go, my God, that's a big bomb? Right? Or like, just in case we didn't understand. but so interesting too in a way that I don't think

Nolan often gets credit for it because he's always been good at casting faces, right? Like when he has Eric Roberts in a role. Like he likes certain types and he likes touching that kind of. He's also just really good at sort of like he has like a Tarantino eye for I'm going to bring that guy back. Yes, and so one thing that I feel like you and Sean were talking about when we came out of the movie that I loved is such a, well, but yes,

but such an interesting decision to cast. a number of former, not child stars, but golden boys, and filmed them the way they look now. Now, Josh Hartman, still plenty golden, and is having a moment. Just an incredible performance by you with this Hollywood stock market. But he used to be one thing, and now he's this. And similarly, like Dane DeHan, right, had a golden moment. Or Josh Peck was a Nickelodeon star, Alden-Eren Reich. Like, these people who were maybe going to be a big thing and have now become a more interesting thing. Yeah.

It was relevant to the movie that he was making, I think, in a way that I haven't fully parsed, but that was such a fascinating way to fill out the enormous cast of most of the men in Hollywood. Yeah. The ones who weren't Kens.

In the same way that we are probably not the best two people to be discussing the glories of Barbie, do you want to talk about the problematic female characters of Oppenheimer? I was going to say, like, a couple, I would run through a couple criticisms.

I would say that Emily Blunt, one of our great, great actresses did her best with, I think, a deeply thankless part. Now, again, could be very accurate to the historical record. And as is often the case, the movie simply didn't really have the real estate to be like, let's really get in between the sheets of this marriage. Could have done without the dropping the flask in the hearing scene, just to really underline that she's an alcoholic. Yeah. That was kind of a bummer.

I thought Florence Pugh was really great in a role that needed to inspire as opposed to really exist. my issue, and I mean this only, I mean this semi, seriously, I think the movie hinted at an interest. No, not hinted. The movie had an interest in Oppenheimer's Judaism. I think it was interesting. I think it was interested in that. I think that idea of who he was, how he felt moving through the world.

Do you welcome Killian Murphy into the tribe? Fucking, if only. It's one of those things that is too beautiful to believe, thus I cannot believe it. Chris, you could cut locks with those cheekbones. Cut it the way it's supposed to be cut, like at Russ and Daughters, or you can read the New York Times through each slice.

There has... He is as Semitic as an Advent calendar, and that... I bumped on that. Yeah. It's an incredible performance. I hope he will be nominated for Oscar. I frankly, I hope he wins.

It is a phenomenal performance of precision and control. But it did rob me of that one piece of it, which I think is an undercurrent, of how he was treated in the world, how he felt in the world, the world he was negotiating, how he was racing to make this bomb because he didn't want the Germans to do it. And there was obviously an animist towards Hitler, and then that war was over, and then it got dropped in Japan. All of that was interesting to me.

And another great child performer, who I recently saw in the Lost Classic Adams Family Values, David Krumholtz. Yeah. Is it Dorabi, right? Yeah. Definitely filled out the Semitic score for me in a big way. But their conversation on the train is awesome. It is awesome. I'm from the other side of the park. That was good.

It's a minor thing. But similarly, Downey Jr. playing a guy who came from, you know, what was the... A lowly shoe salesman? He's like, just a shoe salesman. I'm not being like, only Jews can play these parts, but I did think that was an interesting aspect of the story that was muted by having these phenomenal world-class goy actors play these parts. It was interesting to me.

I appreciated... Gosh, I mean, I think that there was pretty much uniformly, like, it was beautifully and well cast. From Damon carrying most of, like, the pop hits part of the movie to... I thought Brana was good.

You know, Brana is Nils Bore. Oh, he's great. And he can be hit or miss sometimes. Like, in Nolan movies, I think brand is fucking awesome, you know? Yeah, he understands how to keep him in line and be like a great actor. Damon, I think, it's almost not enough being said about him

in this part because I believe, I mean, I don't know if it was named that. The previous Manhattan Project movie that I always, we've talked about before, is Fat Man and Little Boy. I know that like, you know, Dwight Schultz from the A-Team played Oppenheimer in that movie. John Cusack is in it.

Paul Newman is in it. I don't know if he's called Leslie Groves, but it's clearly that part. Yeah. And Damon is not Paul Newman, but it was really awesome to see someone who was a young hot guy in movies be like, I'm going to be this guy. I'm going to be an old movie star heavy in this. No pun intended. And just be phenomenal in it.

He knew, there's a sports analogy to be made here and I won't make it. But in every scene he was in, he knew exactly how hard to throw. Yes. For what the scene needed. I think Matt Damon is also now in the coolest. part of his career where he's like, I'm just going to be in the movies that I really want to see. And if that means showing up in a Steven Soderberg movie as a cameo for five minutes, or doing air because they don't make movies like this anymore, or being the third or fourth

person on the call sheet in Oppenheimer, like, I just want to be a part of these things. And that's legitimately awesome. Do you think this is his best movie? Is Nolan's best movie? No, I don't. But I also feel too close to it. And I think that when I walked out of Dunkirk, which is my favorite Nolan movie, I think,

with an inception, I walk out of every one of his films with the same sort of awe, you know, and that kind of, I'm bowled over by, I feel like I went into a black hole. I saw the Trinity test. Skyscraper's turned upside down. I watched the evacuation of Dunkirk.

Like, you feel pretty much first person in those, in those experiences. And then usually, like, multiple views. viewings reveal the intricacies of the structure or some subtleties in the writing that maybe felt a little ham-handed the first time around. I definitely felt that way about Inception. I've become kind of obsessed with the Marion Cotillard part in Obsession and Inception, which is often pointed to as like the sort of clear exhibit A and the like, Nolan only can think about women in terms of them being dead wives who are obstacles, you know. But yeah, I think it's top three, top four. I kind of sometimes

think of the Batman movies kind of separate from the rest of the filmography in some ways. But obviously, like, dark night's a really great example of like the first time you see Dark Night, you're like, my face is gone

a lave two face. And then afterwards you might be like, wait, what was the Joker's plan? You know, like a boat? Yeah. I agree with that. But I think it's worth saying that I think this is his most human movie,

not just because it's about humans, but just on the face of it, like, the writing, the writing slate. Yeah, I'm trying to think of what's the word. Like, is this movie that matters the most? But before we get into that, like, this movie was funny. This movie had great dialogue. I was really impressed with that. Like, I don't think that anyone, historically ever,

people say Christopher Nolan is one of our great filmmakers, one of our great directors. They do not say that about his screenwriting, yeah. No, but I thought that this was really well written. And whether some of the dialogue was lifted from the book or not, like, it really had pace and verve. it served the story. I really enjoyed it. I also just want to flag,

we were talking about things in these movies that made them feel handmade. Like the Florence Pugh sex scene in the hearing room. The sort of fantasy moment, yeah. It's preposterous. And maybe the worst on-screen serious sex scenes since the one in Munich. But I'm fucking glad it's there because he wanted that there. That made sense to the movie he wanted to make. And like, those are the little things

that we're missing, I think, in the blockbusters of today. Yes, that did not happen in Dark Night. The sex scene on the table? Yes. Correct. Yes. Correct. But also just like, okay, he'll, you know, it's not like he's coming on this podcast,

but like if someone asked him about it, he would have an answer. Yeah. Because there was a reason why he put those things there. I like that. There's the old finchrism of like people are basically deviance, you know, and like they're perverts. And it's nice to kind of just get a little peek into the, the mind, you know?

Like, I think it's just, again, I don't want to keep, in the spirit of like we've just emerged blinking from these movies, we can't really, you know, write the final chapter in history. That actually segues nicely into lioness in this way. Well, just to say, yeah, but just to say, like, I don't know what the fallout, if you'll allow a tasteless pun to be from this, but it just feels very significant that, I mean, I could, I would actually believe, if you told me a few weeks ago that Barbie was going to make over $150 million, I could believe that, that Oppenheimer would at the same weekend make $80 million, especially having now seen it knowing that it's three hours of talking.

That's stunning. It's really stunning. It's a testament to his celebrity as a director, but also, it must mean something. People went to this movie. They didn't stop going on Friday once they heard that it was a little long, you know? You couldn't get a ticket. So when you come out of, I know you saw Barbie yesterday, you saw Oppenheimer early last week. So my question doesn't really work for you.

I saw Barbie on Thursday night. And there was a little bit of an adjustment going back to the small screen, just kind of being like, oh, okay. I'll just, like, I'm going to get back into, like, righteous gemstones and everything else. And I watched this Netflix documentary on Friday night, I think, called The Deepest Breath. It's about two free divers who were, like, kind of like, in love. I don't want to spoil it. You're not going to watch it.

I don't really think free diving is something that we should be doing as a people. I strongly agree. I appreciate that. It's not really a spectator sport. It's very dangerous and it only really serves the free diver. It's not like we're like, we've done it. Until it doesn't. Yeah, exactly.

But I definitely did, speaking of diving, decompress from these movie experiences. So when you were finally like, all right, after my long week of cinema and O-Tours and thinking about big ideas, And now, CR wants me to watch Lioness. Yeah. What did you think? It was hard to get one thought out of my head, which was just like, because Taylor Sheridan is like roughly already. He's a little older than us, maybe.

Yeah. But he probably grew up. We're all part of the greatest generation. That's right. But we probably all shared the experience. We're like watching football as teenagers. And like a lot of the commercials were like for the Marines. Yeah.

He's like young Taylor just sort of cranking it to those commercials. and being like one day, I will make my own recruiting commercial. Yeah. And I will have fucking Nicole Kidman be in it. Yeah. It was hard to shake that image. I think my take on this was,

this is an exceptionally, I watched the first one. And then I watched, because I love you, I started watching the second one. The beating, it's called. And I was watching it up into a point. Can you guess the point

I turned off the second episode? I think it was before the beating took place. I think it was during the Dave Annabelle surgery stuff. This is my guy. It's so nice to be known. I was expecting, I don't know who got beaten.

I can guess, but I was, you know, I was girding myself for some, what's the word, war crimes? By the way,

we're spoiling this show. Are we know? Everybody knows. The moment in the second episode where we are not even in on the battlefield and Dr. Dave Annabelle is just like, you're going to

remove this young girl's face to get to the tumor because that's her choice. And then I was like, okay, that's rough, but time to get back to the Middle East. And then he walks into a room where there's a fucking hallmark perfect six-year-old being like, I can't wait to eat ice cream for the rest of my life, Mommy. Why are there three doctors in the room? Turned it off. That's when I turned it off. Will you ever turn it back on?

Unclear. No, I think my takeaway from the first hour, it is exceptionally well made. It fucking rocks. It's exceptionally well made. And he is so, so good at pilots and at first episodes. The Kingston pilot is incredible. The Yellowstone pilot is practically legendary

in that like it sets up like this whole world that has a huge twist. It's so like 1883 pilot, incredible. And I honestly thought that this pilot was riveting. It is. It is absolutely riveting. It is an example of, look, If future generations, if, shout out Oppenheimer, if we have future generations,

and people will talk about, like, how and the ways TV changed and what it felt like compared to TV we grew up with, like, yes, you could put on an episode of, you could make a highlight reel and you could put the Sopranos and the White Lotus on, but you should put this too, because this is insane that this is a television show for a streaming network. It is on such a high level of filmmaking and ambition and volume and violence. And it's also got multiple movie stars in it. Multiple movie stars in it. Like Zoe Salada is ridiculous in this show.

She's great. And you read interviews about it. And she's just like, this is also, by the way, this is the corner of the Sheridan verse that I am more compelled by because I love Sicario. The Sicario. And Zoe Saddana in interviews is like, this is, to me, this is Sakari.

And it kind of is. And I think that the broad bones of it of Zoe Saladanya and Nicole Kidman doing these dead, fucking serious. Doing Josh Bolin and Benichiel del Toro from Sicario. Yeah. That is a project I can get behind. I also think Gaila DiL Ovaria is really good. Yeah, she's really compelling.

She plays the sort of the lightiness in question. Look, it's a tough one because I do think there are... Should I say what this show is about? I guess I messed that up. I did suggest that it was a masturbatory recruiting commercial, so I feel like people get that. It's about a CIA program that recruits women from various armed services to go undercover and essentially become associated with the extended social or family networks of known terrorists

and that if they can get close enough to the target terrorists for them to orchestrate their elimination or capture or whatever. And Zoe Saltonia plays Joe who runs the program. Nicole Kidman plays a woman named Caitlin, who is her boss and seems to have some deep state action going. And so far we've seen Michael Kelly, who seems to be important in the national security apparatus. And the lioness in question is this woman played by Liza Di Lavera. Now, again, like this is in the spirit of a well-made pilot. And shout out to Taylor Sheridan for this, if nothing else. I mean, the pilot is like 46 minutes.

It's so fucking right down the line. And that does require some scenes of her being beaten and then running from her abuser and crashing into a Marines office. and the Marines like, you now have a problem with the United States government. Chris is smiling so big right now. I guess what I'll say is this is extremely well-made material that is probably not for me, but I think one of the things about it that is interesting is we talk about this in many different ways all the time, but like the different types of storytelling that you can do in movies that you can do in TV. And one of the things that tends to happen in TV is things get softer and flatter over time

because you spend so much time with these people and you begin to relate to them or, empathize with them. We want to join the Marines. Or want to be friends of them in different ways. And sometimes that can be played to great effect. Like we've talked about

recently with Succession, like these are all terrible people, but because of proximity we kind of feel for them and are weirdly rooting for them. I can take this sort of worldview and rhetoric when it's deployed tactically,

like a 90-minute, like, Sicario. Sure. There's like, or Zero Dark 30, I think is an exceptional movie. I'm not here to argue whether it's problematic or not in our role in the global whatever on terror.

But I'm like, that's an incredibly well-made movie that for the duration of it, I was ready to run into a Marine Recruiting Office as well. And I would then be told, Sir, GameStop is next door. We're like, thanks, guys. No, you're looking for Walden books. I was a member of their fantasy book club, and a little card. But the nature of a series, I think, it wants us to go home with these people to a degree that a movie wouldn't, you know.

And so we're getting the home light. and the Dr. Dave Annabelle and that, but when the worldview is as consistently Day of the Soldado, but now it becomes also Spaghetti Night with the Soldados. It's a tougher hang. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, I'm right, right?

Like, keeping up with the Soldados. Like, it's just, it's a different vibe. Like, to be fair. So you didn't get to the part where. Day of the Soldato is, we know, So Cario ends with Spaghetti Night Soldados, if I remember correctly. Yeah.

And then that night ends. We didn't get like the buildup. So you really did turn it off after Dave Annabelle has to tell like a family that like... I turned off when he walked into the room. Okay. I did. I did. So there is an extended redaction scene where they

basically capture crews and try to break her because they have to find out how long like the actual American military does this. That's cool. And they have to keep her and torture her to see how much she could take before she breaks. Because so he saw that you need to know that going forward.

Is it a lot? It's a lot. She takes a lot. She doesn't actually break. That's all the thing. Chris, if you've watched the first 10 minutes of the show, you'll know that the dramatic inciting incident that leads to everything that follows is about the discovery of a heretofore unknown tattoo on the body of a previous lioness.

Yeah. Would you disclose your body art to the United States? I don't know that my body art would really tell anyone anything. that they don't get from, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have a crucifix on my arm or, you know, a flag or anything. It's just like, this guy likes soundwaves and cities, you know?

I feel like that tells me. That's non-denominational, isn't it? I feel like that tells me a lot about you, you know? Anything else you wanted to talk about from this week in culture? Can we get out of here? Thank you for watching Linus. I appreciate that.

I mean, you know where I go with the stuff. Like, this is not... I didn't think you were going to come in and be like, this is our new Sunday night jam. But I surprised you with hijack. Yeah. I like hijack. So on Thursday, we'll complete the hijacking.

I can't wait. I'm really excited about that. And, you know, there's lots of stuff we could check in on gemstones. It's cranking right now. Yeah, I got to catch up. And full circle still. Yeah. What's up with Chef Jeff?

Res dogs coming soon. That's coming soon? Early August. And, man, we're also at the theater for Barbie, like during the Menunos moment. I saw the trailer for the new Britt Marling FX. show. Oh, yeah. With Emacoran.

Yeah. And Clive Owen. Look cool. Looks sick. Yeah. I'm down. TV and movies are back. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing us.

Thank you to Andy Greenwald for coming in and talking to me about Barbie and Oppenheimer. The Real Lion. Thank you to all you, lovely, lovely, lovely people for listening to us chat. But like, what a weird moment because this is like a triumphant moment for Hollywood. And I feel like movie culture. I feel like the big screen is beckoning us. I don't know if you've noticed that, but we have talked a lot about the films. for the last month.

They've been better and more interesting than a lot of the TV. Well, we're a lot to go where our passions take us. That's the only operative ethic of this podcast. There likely won't be any TV next year. So this is a smart pivot.

Yeah, because they're going to remove all the films for the rest of the year and then put them in 24. What a great time. Talk to you guys on Thursday. Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma.

Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone. Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back. Guaranteed at no extra cost, exclusively at the UPS Store UPS Store U.S. retail locations. Visit the UPS Store.com slash air shipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply.

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