The Watch - What to Watch: ‘Devs,' ‘Tiger King,’ and ‘ZeroZeroZero.’ Plus: Our Dream TV Adaptations | The Watch

Episode Date: March 24, 2020

The Season 10 finale of ‘Curb Your Enthusiasm’ aired last night and marked a remarkable comeback for the show that first premiered 20 years ago (7:53). We list some of our dream adaptations we’d like to see right now (19:24). Plus: ‘Devs’ and ‘ZeroZeroZero’ (35:36). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. We hope The Ringer can provide you entertainment and companionship during this time. So as always, feel free to check out The Ringer.com, where we're still covering the latest in sports, pop culture, tech, and media. And the Ringer's YouTube channel can provide endless amounts of entertainment. You can find that at YouTube.com slash The Ringer. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor. at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He just sold his dragon to a buyer in Costa Rica. It's Andy Greenwald! Buddy, I was really banking. You know, the, uh, the markets, the marketplace. Yeah, the marketplace of ideas. They're struggling, but I think also the sort of non-main brand betting markets are doing better. And so I actually thought that you were going to say he introduced the multiverse to devs. do you even know the reference that I'm making,

the dragon getting sold to Costa Rica is? No, and the reason why is because this is just a little inside pod baseball here, Kaya hadn't muted herself or turned her camera off. And I was like, are we going to just do the whole pod trying to make Kaya laugh? I had a couple zingers in the chamber lined up. So we're going to hit a couple of things today.

We're going to talk about, we'll talk a little bit about devs. We're going to talk about pieces of, of fiction or graphic novels or whatever it is that we wish had been made into shows so that we could have them now. So this is dream adaptations, Andy and I are going to do. And, well, I'm sure we'll hit some other stuff. There's plenty of stuff to talk about. But the first thing I wanted to do, Eddie, is, you know, I know you're sort of more of like a Westworld completest. And I know you're just letting them stack up so that you can really immerse yourself. But I did want to break some news to you. Not sure if you've been looking at Twitter. But

do you believe me when I tell you? How credulous do you need to be to believe this? Okay. Do you believe me when I tell you that last night on Westworld, there was a scene where Stubbs played by like Brad Hemsworth or whichever Hemsworth that guy is? Harpo Hemsworth. Or Bernard, rather, are walking through a lab in Westworld.

And they come across two guys sitting in a laboratory. and they're talking about how they found a buyer in Costa Rica. And those two guys are David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. Great. And they cut to a wide shot and Drogon is sitting in the laboratory. Sitting in the laboratory with them as the third member of their conversation? No, he's not chiming in. I think he's sedated. So, okay, so talk me through this.

So in Westworld, the... They're just playing lab tech. I don't think that we're supposed to think that that is D.B. Weiss and David Benioff. Oh, that's where I thought you were going with it. I was pretty interested in that. It's just like an inside joke or whatever, but the thing is, is that everybody's got a great sense of humor about how Game of Thrones ended. Well, also, Westworld famously has a great sense of humor. So I feel like this is a perfect combination. Like, this is the content America craves right now.

So really the idea is that this is a lab that builds robot stuff. Yeah. They introduced a couple of new worlds on Westworld last night where they have World War II World, which is War World. And a lot of Taddy Newton's arc takes place in like an Italian village where she seems to be part of the resistance. Oh my God. Then there's like a bunch of stuff that happens. But basically we all end up in a place where Mave meets up with Vincent Cassell at the end of the episode. And he's just got Vincent Cassell,

incredible rider because he always has dynamite fruit plates. Last night on Westworld he had a great fruit plate. And then in Oceans 12, he has an incredible spread of fresh fruit. As someone who has now come to really appreciate the value of fresh fruit, I got nothing but respect for it. But yeah, just wanted to keep you up to date, keep you in the loop with Westworld. Can you give me, this is what I'd like from you from your Westworld content,

Can you give me this week in Joe Pesci saying you were serious about that? I mean, everybody is a robot. Everybody is a robot. Everything is a construct. There are like layers and layers of simulation inside simulation. So I don't know which way is up and which way is down. Yikes. That doesn't sound great for me.

By the way, I would have loved to have seen Dave and Dan's cameo on the show. Maybe I will check it out. You sound pretty sincere. talked about on this podcast is Dave and Dan's cameo in our lives a couple weeks ago. Yes. Where we were out to dinner with our wives. We were so much younger then. And what was great about the entire thing was, I don't remember which member of our party, but it definitely was neither of us, said, don't look now, but Amanda Pete is over there.

Which is all I need to look immediately. And then I think there was a question. Maybe you or your wife was like, well, who's? who were Amanda and David sitting with. And I leaned back in my chair very, very smoothly. No one could tell what I was doing at all and realized it was Dan Weiss. And it was nice to see that they're still out there. They're making plans.

It was weird. They had a Confederate flag with them and it said, was labeled research. So maybe the dream is still going. Yeah. I thought it was nice that they were socializing. And then just when we were preparing the next sort of like fictional thing that we would, Like, we weren't actually going to do it, but maybe we were going to game plan something we would have said to them,

something a bit our wives would have loved because they're long-time fans of this podcast and listeners of it. They were, they were ferried away to, like, some sort of private dining room. Yeah, I think that they didn't like the, they were, I think they were getting some looks. I think some people were like, that those are the guys right there.

Those are the guys who did DeNaris dirty? Yeah, those are the guys who rang the bells. Andy, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? How are you doing here in week two? I'm doing fine. You know, like, I had a nice long weekend of, uh, of staring at Twitter, which was nerve-wracking. But then, you know, like, I, I think yesterday I really started to, like, fall into the groove of escaping into some shows, which has been, I needed that, you know,

like, I think that people, when, when this all first started, you know, outside of all the considerations about people's health, which are given, but also Andy and I are not, like, qualified to really comment on. I think one thing that was really throwing me off was, as usual, the kind of anxiety about how I should be spending my time. You know what I mean? Like everybody, I think you've talked about how having, you've talked to me at least about having kids is a good focus point. But for those of us who are childless and looking at a PS4 like a newborn son, I think it's been a little bit more like, okay, where do I put my nervous energy? Where do I put my attention outside of my work? If I'm lucky enough to keep doing that,

And so I finally felt like I got into the groove with some shows. I really, really am bummed that curb is over because I found that curb was just, it's just related to the real world enough, but it's also very escapist, you know? Like it had everyday concerns, but I felt like to place in an aquarium far, far away from what we're living through now. I'm glad you brought up curb. I didn't finish the season yet. We've been sort of parceling it out a little more slowly. Although the John Ham episode was viewed in my household.

And let me just say, just, you know, back of the playbill, like chicken scratch review, I think the general consensus was that an episode in which everyone imitated John Hamm would have been preferable to an episode where John Hamm is imitating Larry David. Oh, interesting. Even though the sight of John Hamm is appreciated. Was there still some affection for John Hamm? Even though he was pretending to be Larry David? there is a certain face that unnamed members of my household make when John Hamm is on the screen.

That is a face that despite many years of, you know, lovely companionship, couplehood, and marriage, I don't think I've ever once earned. So that's, that is what it is, and that was very much appreciated. But I think we should talk about curb just to say, without some of the specifics of how the season ended, what a remarkable, what a remarkable, what a remarkable, comeback season. Twenty years after the show premiered, is that correct? I believe so, yeah.

First of all, that's insane and almost impossible to fathom. But on two levels, I wanted to break this down with you, because I agree. I just was delighted by the season, I enjoyed it. I'm so excited that there are a few more left for me to watch. There are two things that are incredible. One is just sort of what I'm saying, which is what show this far into its run still has this much in the tank and is able to pull it out like this

because the last, you know, there was about a six or seven year, maybe even eight year gap between the previous season and what had come before. And I think the consensus was, I agreed with this, that it felt a little tired last season.

It didn't quite feel like it was punching it the same way class. It felt like the episodes were stretching a little too long and really it wasn't delivering to the degree that it had been. Those concerns are gone. But the thing about it that I kind of just can't get over. And maybe this is sort of what you were speaking to when you were talking about

the comfort level with it. When Kirby enthusiasm premiered, it was electric and hilarious, but deeply uncomfortable a lot of the time. Right? It was sort of right in the air of shock humor or making people uncomfortable. And so it wasn't the kind of thing that, at least I would say, I didn't watch it for comfort. I watched it for laughs and then like sort of had to shake myself out afterwards. Something in this most recent season, and I don't think it's because our tastes have changed, particularly one way or another, Larry, like in the great tradition of like Catskills vaudevillians,

has just leaned into and accepted his schick so completely. And I mean that as a compliment. Like everything from just, you know, knowing people want the pretty pretty goods and like doling them out, when he needs to, bringing in old friends when exactly what he needs to. Just getting cursed out by Susie once every, like, two episodes. Yeah. He is, I guess what I'm saying is he is a legacy act

who is not afraid to play the hits. And actually, this season, he and everyone else involved seemed to relish playing the hits. And that felt really fun. And it felt kind of infectious is the wrong word to use these days, but it felt really, really, really joyful. Yeah, you know, I remember reading an interview. I think it might have been with Rob McElhenney, but it also might have been with

Glenn Howerton. I can't remember. It was one of the, it's always Sunny guys. And they were talking about how long Sunny had been going on for, I think it was Glenn Howardton, because he had left the show and then come back after doing AP Bio. And he said to the interviewer that he had had this like chance encounter with Larry David. And Larry David said to him, whatever you do, don't end the show. You don't have to come out and say season 11 is the last sunny season. You can do it whenever you want for however many episodes you want in whatever way you want, but don't end it because there's really no reason to do it. And I think that that sort of open-ended nature of curb and the fact that they have come back and they'll have good seasons and bad seasons, but there's been something about these last two and a half months where I just feel like for anybody who's even open to this, this comedy, it's been such a salve. It's just been such an amazing, amazing, amazing,

like 40 minutes every Sunday to watch this guy step on landmine after social landmine. And it's just also the variety of comedy that it offers up from observational stuff to sight gags like him and Vince Vaughn squatting over those front-facing toilets to, even like honestly, the season-long narrative of the spite store. and latte Larry's is just, it's just incredible shit. I was going to ask you, have you ever,

if you were going to open a spite store, like a store to spite someone else, who would you, what would you do? I would open a podcast store called The Small Picture, where I just talk about like TV and the superior storytelling possibilities of television,

the dominance of television as the premier storytelling, you know, medium of our age. And I would, and I would do it with, like, a lot of, like, long-form conversations with television creators.

With different TV, television producers and, and showrunners and stuff. That, that I admire. And then in between that, I would occasionally, like, do a segment

where I talk about how much I like Marvel movies. Okay. Good idea. You deigned to do that. That would be the spite podcast that I would do. How do you feel about that? That's great. The other thing I want to say about curb before we move on is,

I think, we should chat out, Jeff Schaefer, who along with his wife, I believe, created the league, and had worked with Larry before, whether it was at the end of Seinfeld or the beginning of Kerb, has sort of emerged as his co-conspirator in a very big way, this season especially. And I got to say, I think he deserves a lot of credit here, because one thing about the league, and I don't know if the league ever dovetailed with us doing this podcast, maybe we talked about it a little bit at the very beginning of it, like in 12 and 13. Sure.

But the league, I think when we did talk about it. about it, we gave it credit for being like just, it was such a solid B as a watch. And I don't even mean that as a dig. It was, that was the show that I would put on back when, I was going to say back, not when the world was allowed to go out, when I would go out, which was before children. Like, you'd go out, you'd be at a bar or whatever, you'd be with your friends, and you'd come home and you kind of don't want to go to sleep yet. You got a couple episodes of the league maybe to burn through, and I would just enjoy it. And it was just medium good in the best possible way. its highs were good, its lows were fine,

and you could just sort of power through it, and there's something about this. You're fucking slow rolling the league on this podcast is Mansukas Eresher. No, okay, there are clearly the highs are deliriously high. It's the single greatest character in the history of television shows. Fine. What I'm trying to say, though, about my enjoyment level of the show and how curb, which started in many ways, it felt like, you know,

it was also the HBO hype and the way HBO, you know, packaged and presented it, this isn't a standard sitcom, right? This is something radical and forward thinking, and it's finally Larry David uncorked and able to do all the things he couldn't do on Seinfeld or whatever, right? Maybe some of that was marketing bullshit. The point is that now it just, it has become the thing that maybe it always was, which is comforting and medium, medium good to great at all times in the way that's, I don't know, it's scratching a similar itch, I think, the people who are really mourning the absence of friends on Netflix's morning, which is not something I ever would have said.

Honestly, for me, it is the stand-in for all the great sitcoms that we grew up watching, whether it's Cheers or Nightcourt or Friends or even the office. Like, I just find that, like, if you told me that Curb was 35 episodes this season, I wouldn't blink. We should also point out that on The Ringer, had a great piece of at J.B. Smooth. It's one of the great, great characters of our time as well. The moment when he talked about, and it's all improv, the moment when he talked about when

women wore minks and people called ladies' tuts, maybe the hardest I've left this year. Chris, what would your spite store be? You asked me, and I didn't return the favor. Well, I don't have a specific, nor would I want to use this platform to, you know, insult a small business during this time. Fair, fair. I think it's more, I have spite towards like concepts, like share plates. Oh, yeah. I think I would probably open up a store, a restaurant called your own plate or no share plates. and it has a thing to do with exchanging, you know, exchanging germs or anything.

It's just about like, I think people should be able to order what they want to order and have it come at a certain time in the meal that is like logical and not get your Brussels sprouts after you've finished your protein. Yeah, but you know, they're caramelized just so in the oven. There's little bits of bacon toss with them and there's a red wine vinegar. So it's kind of a dessert? Is that what you're saying? What I'm saying is, look, I... parentheses, the restaurant industry is the tip of the spear here for like our entire economy. And

if you please are able to support your local restaurants, a lot, a lot, a lot of people are out of work right now. And I don't want to mean to make light of that at all. One thing that is amazing, though, over the last few days, as restaurants have been, you know, what they always have been, which is resourceful and dedicated to helping and feeding people and dedicated to their communities. We're seeing restaurants that are, you know, restaurants like, sorry to say, it's what we talk about on the TV show. Like TV shows, they're often locked into a concept. Yeah, right. Like Westworld isn't going to suddenly do a comedy episode, although maybe would be exciting if it did. So restaurants are locked into doing what they do. They're established.

They have a brand. They have an identity. They do food a certain way, whether it's share plates or whether it's like, you know, high-end like omacase sushi dining or whatever. Suddenly, these very high-end chefs are feeding people in a more like primal and profound way and offering takeout things. And it's kind of amazing. Oh, yeah. It's both inspiring. There's a bunch of places in Los Angeles here who have started doing like, I know Republic is doing this.

There's like a bunch of places here that are doing basically like grocery bags. You know, you can do takeout grocery bags, you know, and people can do that responsibly. That's amazing. Gorilla tacos, which is a great spot in, there used to be a truck and is now in downtown in the arts district. Like, they're doing to feed families. He's doing an emergency taco kit where you just get like beautifully prepared shredded meats and salas and things.

And it's kind of amazing actually to see it being reduced down to this very like fundamental thing that I think will please you in your spiteful heart now that you're no longer being forced to endure course after course of elegantly considered food inches away from Benioff and Weiss, the creators of Game of Thrones. That's right. Let's talk a little bit about this adaptation. adaptation idea that you wanted to talk about. Because I really liked it. So Andy and I, obviously, like we've been getting some messages from folks about, you know, reupping the double down book club,

or at least making the sort of core 101 level texts available. And I actually have, I'm starting to put together a list. And we'll probably talk about that a little bit more in detail on Thursday. But what obviously that means is that we're looking at our bookshelves or we're kind of like scrolling through things that we've recommended to each other over the years. And, And now that there has been this kind of the faucet sort of turned off in terms of production right now with TV, we were kind of like hypothetically kicking back and forth. Like what's the thing that you wish was adapted was coming out so that you could savor it over these next couple of weeks?

Yeah, there's certain things. And, you know, I'm sure people have things in their libraries or watch lists or that they carry in their hearts and memories that fit this criterion. But like at a time like this, I know that there's a desire to lose yourself in something. And you want to lose yourself in a world or a vibe or a type of story that can be both familiar in some ways, but also transporting or maybe even palliative, like help you feel certain things. And for me, you know, it's honestly, it's been rereading. Like I had started this kind of just casually back in New Year's, but now I'm fully just rereading all Heruki Murakami novels. Yeah. Including books that I hadn't read in 20 years, which I think I said this the other day. Fantastic. Would you get to be our age? 20 years later, I don't remember a single thing. It's like reading the book all over again. But I'm really enjoying that experience, and it sort of feels like a project

and something to throw myself into. But that was the beginning of this conversation. I was going to sort of bring this up with you and say maybe we should talk about things that we've enjoyed rereading. And I was, as you said, looking at my bookshelf because my bookshelf is indoors, and so am I. And my eyes fell on the books by a writer

we've talked about on this podcast before, maybe not for a couple of years. A guy named Alan First. and Alan First is a spy novelist. He's an older guy now. He lives on Long Island. And he's one of those people that I, you and I think, Chris, are drawn to artistically, whether it's in music or film or TV.

They kind of have one project and they just keep doing it. They got one song. Yeah. And they keep finding their way to, they want to perfect it. And so Alan First thing is basically Europe, continental Europe, between like 1938 and 1942 or 43. And all of his books are smoky and alcohol soaked and full of espionage and intrigue and the really, really desperate romance of a fading moment in time that was going to vanish forever.

And sometimes there's a little bit of overlap in his books, but generally it's just kind of the same feeling and vibe and the same characters sleeping with the same, you know, way out of their league, beautiful, mysterious women, all while Europe is sort of slowly falling under the shadow and much more than the shadow of the Nazis. Yeah, and more often than not, those characters, the main characters are doing some sort of clandestine work. Like they're working for some resistance, secret service spy network. Yeah, they're usually, they're people who were one thing before the world changed and then have now become something else.

Sorry, something I just said woke up Siri and is now playing a song on my phone. What song is it? the pastels, nothing to be done? Huh. That was weird. Anyway, two of my favorite books by Alan First, the world at night and red gold are basically, they're connected,

and it's a French film producer who's suddenly drawn into the Secret Service and anti-Nazi, blah, blah, blah. The point being, these books are great. We'll throw up, if we're going to throw up some stuff, like recommendations, we'll recommend our favorites. But I was just viscerally feeling the lack in my life of a show set in that world.

And part of my brain immediately was like, well, Babylon Berlin is quite good. A new season just came up and I know people really enjoy it. Hopefully some of our listeners are enjoying it. I never sort of had the legs to get all the way into it. I watched the first couple and never really went back to it. So clearly there's a desire for romance and intrigue during dark times in Europe. But there's something particularly about these books. And I guess what I was really responding to was the essential.

escapism into a different kind of crisis that one in which history is a spoiler in the best possible way, meaning we know how things turned out for World War II, obviously unimaginable loss and heartache along the way. But we don't need a Debs cube to tell us, yeah. Exactly. And so the idea of following people who are trying to do their best in a confusing circumstance obviously has connections to today. But I also just feel like it would scratch a very strong itch right now for daring do and romance and satisfying classic kind of adventure storytelling. And I just, I wish it was there. It just felt so real in that moment that I felt like I could just press play and then my next two weeks would be sorted.

Dude, I would watch the epic O-Tor director version of the Allen First novels, or I would watch the masterpiece theater version that was just set in like five different bedrooms. It, It is, I know that they made a miniseries out of Spies of Warsaw, but yeah, I mean, some sort of transporting late 30s, early 40s resistance with like Galois smoke everywhere and people finding the last bit of beef stew in Paris. And yeah, those books are incredible. Like, I find the earlier ones to be a little bit more urgent and full of like, I don't know, authorial passion maybe.

So Dark Star, Night Soldiers and Polish Officer of my favorites. but the ones you recommended too are incredible. I even like the one on the boat. I like that one too. I mean, that dark victory or something, I think it is. I also love that as he's gotten on in years and on in books, not only the book's gotten shorter, but now they're just called like spies of Paris,

spies of Warsaw, spies. The first books definitely are like that thing that you and I also respond to often with writers where they're like, this might be my only book, so I'm going to put all of my ideas into it and they're four or five hundred pages and they feel like really substantial personal statements. and then he just keeps going back to that well

and maybe knows now to take less water each time. The thing that you said last, before I turn it over to you, does kind of step on something I want to say about another show that we're going to talk about later in our podcast. This idea that we're creeping into in our coverage, and we're guilty of it too, that all TV shows need to be worthy, need to be artistically and cinematicallyly exceptional.

Oh, yeah, right, right. is such a prison that I think we're worried we're kind of putting the medium into. And you know, Sarah Barnett said something similar to me when she came on a couple weeks ago. She's the president of AMC networks. And she was talking about AMC. She was like, I want us to also be a home, I'm paraphrasing, to writers in the sort of traditional sense of where like television being a writer's medium as much as it is it might be for a director. And that that they still are looking for people with really good ideas for television shows rather than really hot directors who are going to do some stuff on a television show.

Yeah, and the best TV shows historically have been ones where the two different ways of looking at a world and looking at a story have been in concert with each other. But I also think it's one of the exciting things about the medium. And yes, I was taking joking shots at our beloved Sean Fennessee in his wonderful podcast earlier. But movies, when they succeed, succeed on that level of synergy. a way that I think TV rarely does. And I think that's fine because I think TV has more reps and can take more shots. You know what I mean? And the other thing about it, especially in a world

where there not only are there, I mean, currently there are no movies at all in the theaters, but they're as well covered on his podcast and ours. There is no medium level movie anymore. TV can hit the right buttons and give you something that is deeply satisfying. I completely agree with you. I don't want the Autour version of Allen First. I just want a really good entertaining show that gets the vibe right. You know what I mean? And I was going to try to build this up and try to hit you again like I did the time that I watched Ozark.

But, you know, Chris doesn't like surprises anymore. I don't know why. I don't know why what's changed in his psyche over the last two and a half weeks. But I was going to let him know that I strapped on my metaphorical skis and I watched zero zero. How many episodes did you watch, you son of a bitch? You know what? This is the thing about me.

Like Malcolm Gladwell's famous chippers about cigarette people who aren't addicts. Like I just took a couple bumps out of the little bag, you know, and then I put it back on the shelf. So I just watch one episode. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you watched the first one, right? So, yes. And we'll talk about it.

But one of the things that I loved about it was that it was 100% a high class version of exactly what it was. Yes. And it's a thing that I like. And so that was terrific. You know what I mean? It was terrific. wrong with those that that's what we like. Listen, we'll leave that to the armchair psychologist,

aka our listeners slash Facebook group. But my point being, it is not a bad thing for a TV show to be a great version of something that is appealing and entertaining. Absolutely. So that's what I was hungry for. Now, let me turn it back to you because I've been talking. Oh, I was just going to say the two things I wrote down, one were I would watch any adaptation of any Allen first novel right now.

so that's why you and I are friends. Wait, you wrote that too? Yeah. Yeah. And then I also found this article from about three years ago that was about two of the executive producers from Justified looking into making a show based on all of the Elmore Leonard Detroit novels. Oh my God.

So it was, among others, Mr. Paradise, Pagan Babies, Unknown Man Number 89. but if you told me right now, there's 48 episodes of an Elmore Leonard show set in Detroit, and even if it was like an anthology with different novels adapted over the years, or if they wove together all of them somehow, I'd probably black out my windows.

I would honestly put foil on my windows. I would go full Michael Shannon and bug and just be like, I'll see you in a couple weeks, bro. I would volunteer for the quarantine test protocol. You find me with like two Pringles cans on my hands, you know? Because not only could you not get your hand out after eating the last chip, you didn't care? I didn't care. Oh my God, that would be so great.

I mean, this is the thing, right? Like, the thing that we often respond to, you and I respond to in books. And obviously, we read all kinds of books, but the ones that get us particularly excited, the ones we return to, the ones we champion on this podcast or in the Double Down Book Club, if and when we have it going. It's really vibe. And vibe is something that movies at their best do, you know, appear to be effortlessly. It's something that I was, you know, when I was joking on the podcast on Thursday, not really a joke,

that my household is engaged in like a French New Wave film festival because that is a vibe that my wife is really digging right now and is really enjoyable and transporting in the evening. But TV ought to be the champion of that. I really think. And TV too often, I think, gets caught in a trap of, are they landing the plane? Are they answering the questions? Are they going to seal the deal?

Like, it's this weird investment. Even like the things that sometimes I think we ask on this show, which is, do we really need this right now? Right. Why does this need to exist? As if, like, these sort of inanimate objects need to justify their existence. I think it's like, it's, it's interesting because we're talking about almost taking a traditionalist approach to television,

which may be a marker of our age, at a time when television can be anything from zero, zero, zero to I think you should leave to Tiger King, which is something I just started watching this weekend, which is bat shit. And if you tried to write it, you would just be like,

you'd never get it past the pitch process. Do you know what Tiger King is? You know, that's what they were calling me for a few weeks after the Briar Patch pilot. And I'm sorry that I've been dethroned. You know, as a guy who's an answer, an amateur member of the big cat community,

you might want to check this out. I feel like it's stepping on my toes a little bit. It kind of makes Wild Wild Country look like Downabby. It's just like a really twisty docus series on Netflix that people are freaking out about that

I just started watching. Maybe we'll talk about it a little down the line. But yeah, like the Elmore Leonard just bring back the Justify squad and make a bunch of different Elmore Leonard novels, and that would be my pick. There are few things as both comforting and transporting and just fun, especially those early 75 to 85 era Elmore Leonard books, like stick and swag and... Dude, damn. They are like, talk about page turners.

The one thing I was going to ask you, though, so today we did on the ringer, I highly recommend people check this post out where they did it. We did like a huge book recommendations post. And Allison Herman wrote this really good blurb for Station 11. Oh, God. Yeah, that was on the top of my website table. And so Allison wrote about how she likes to basically steer into the skid of anxiety. And I think I'm probably closer on team Allison here.

But as I say this to you, I am looking over at my bookshelf. and I got to tell you, ma'am, World War Z keeps staring right back at me. Jeez. But like, an incredible reaction. But what if you reread that now in the context? I mean,

not to be sensationalistic about it, but it would be an interesting reread right now. Yeah. It would be very interesting. Sounds great. You know, maybe you could, I'll let you know how it goes.

Why don't you take a hike with that and report back? I mean, I'm rereading, I, I'm rereading a lot of them or a comic books in order, and I hadn't read the Wind Up Bird Chronicle since like 1997. And it's fascinating to read it now with a different point of view and a different kind of critical eye towards it and in the context of reading other books close together, as opposed to waiting three or four years between them to come out. And so now a lot of the themes

and the recurring imagery and actually some of the like the flaws, I think, as well, are coming more into focus. But for me, I'm really drawn to them not only because of the comfort level, because I know that I enjoy being in this world, even when I'm pushing back against stuff. But because essentially they are all about solitary figures who, when confronted with the insanity of the outside world, retreat inward and kind of deal with stuff in a very often metaphorical way of like basically climbing into a well

and sitting there with a baseball bat until they deal with their demons one way or another. I find that very appealing. But look, we all react to stress, rest orders in different ways. You reread terrifying, prescient fiction. I order three bags of hers sour cream and onion potato chips on Amazon. And we'll see who's happier in a week. That's right. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Dev's episode four. And we'll also talk a little bit about the 0-0-0-200 adventure, Andy went on.

All right, we're back. What do you want to do for 0-0 or devs? up to you. Let's do devs. Let's do devs because, you know, we had talked a little bit about how the third episode was a little, like the shakiest one that they had done so far. Possibly a, like, you know, in kind of looping in the earlier conversation we were having here,

it felt the most TV, even though it had incredibly overwhelming visuals and an incredible score. It was a very like, you know, this is what we have to do to get the story from not from A to Z, but from maybe D to F, you know? Yeah. I thought the fourth episode clearly was it up the stakes a little bit.

Anytime, spoiler, obviously, for episode four of devs. Anytime you hear the voice of Jesus, you could consider that a notable episode of television. I do want to ask you, though, I know how you feel about AI. Okay. I know how you feel about like whether or not we're all robots how do you feel about the multiverse?

Pro. Because as a comic guy, I know you're in. That's the sort of lifeblood of X-Man and countless other comics. But I found myself actually reaching maybe the limits

of my own intellectual capabilities trying to figure out what the fuck Katie and Forrest are talking about in the cube. And I was wondering if you could help me out a little bit. with it. Sure.

And it's funny you mentioned comic books. I mean, that is it. You said sure with a lot of confidence. I love this.

This is easy for me. Okay. And it's relevant to our other conversation because this is where the Marvel universe is heading as well in the Marvel

Cinematic Universe movies. I think that isn't the Doctor Strange movie, the Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness? Yes. So to paraphrase Jeremy Irons in margin call,

explain it to me like I'm a retriever. So, I thought you were going to say in the words of is Ben Affleck and Margin Call or am I mixing that up with Boilerm? Boil Room.

In the famous words of someone in Boilerm, fuck off, nerd. So the thing about being a comic book reader as a kid, it's like, oh, how exciting these are fun adventures of Spider-Man and X-Men or whatever. But the two things that appealed to me the most

that I think influenced my love of other TV shows as well, whether it was Twin Peaks or Lost, was reading a comic book and being like, my friend being like, oh, this is Wolverine and Cyclops. Cool. And then them saying, you know, they've been around for 20 or 30 years. And you know, there's a comic book where they all die. I was like, what are you talking about?

And they were like, oh, there's this famous Days of Future past comic book from the 70s where an alternate future exists that they try to avoid. And like, that's the thing that broke my mind. It got me really excited. And then there was a comic book that was printed in the 80s and into the 90s called What If, that they're now doing as a cartoon for Disney Plus, which was basically like, we all know that Spider-Man saved the day, but Gwen Stacy, his teenage love, died.

What if she didn't? What would be the next part of that story? And just the pure mind-opening creativity of that stuff was so thrilling. And that's essentially what the multiverse is, right? Is that for every decision we make, there are limitless number. It opens up.

A butterfly wing action opens up another potential reality. And so the thing that was making Forrest so Ron Swansony an unhappy in front of technology was that what the kid, Lyndon had done, was essentially a cheat. That what he had done was... He made Westworld. He'd done the projection for a Jesus that probably may have existed, but not the Jesus of their reality. that it was sort of a supposition and sort of wild speculative math

creating another Jesus that could have existed. They were mapping because of all the probabilities, yes. But it wasn't actually tuning in like a shortwave radio, the actual sermon on the mount or whatever that was. My Aramaic isn't what it used to be. So I liked that in this episode a lot. And I liked it because the things that I'm enjoying most about death, four episodes in are the things on the extremities.

One being the absolute beauty of it, which is an opinion that not only do I have now, but one that has been tweeted out by the Ringer multiple times, because I think that's the last time they have us in studio for the foreseeable future. I stand by it. I think the show is fucking beautiful. The other part of it that I like all the way on the other end of the spectrum is the wilder and bigger the idea of the show, the more excited I am by it. the place that I think that it, and so the introduction of the multiverse and suddenly

Forrest, you know, standing firm to his principles, but being reduced to weeping at the sight of a purely, you know, tuned in beautiful projection of what could be his daughter. His daughter. Yeah. Is really affecting. The part that I'm struggling with a little bit in the show and to degree that I didn't expect to is the shoe leather, is the, is the, in-between meat and potato stuff. Again, it goes back to this idea that our... Like the Lily Jamie stuff.

Yeah, the Lily being our protagonist, but being so far behind the curve of the audience, it's really a tricky way to tell a story. Last week, it was a little bit difficult because she seemed dumber than she ought to, but then that was part of the story, right, because she actually was pulling a fast one on Kenton and stayed a little bit ahead of him,

or at least got more... We gave her more credit than maybe we... we thought that she deserved. This episode felt really stuck for me in terms of her behavior and why she was doing it. She knows what's going on. But I guess the episode is built on this twin assumption that the doctor she goes to and semi-opens-up to is somehow on the up and up. And then that calling the police is going to work out well for her. Right.

That felt a little bit like schmuck bait to me in terms of what the audience is expecting to happen versus what happens. I was a little bit lost. I find it hard to be on her team when she's sort of scrabbling on the cliff's face not really able to get, find purchase. Yeah. It's a really delicate balance for this show because the things that are happening inside that,

that bunker and the things that are happening between with Forest and Katie are so enigmatic and magical and intellectually and psychologically and emotionally and emotionally intense. and the stuff that's happening in quote-unquote, San Francisco, if that's what we're watching, because if you look on Reddit,

the theory engine is already grinding them out about what is and isn't a simulation. That stuff feels so different than what's happening inside the bunker. It's almost like it's happening in a different show. Now, those two things can easily coexist, and I never really find it like jarring or unpleasant to watch, but I do think you're right in that there seems to be,

so much to use a phrase that Forrest uses, like, magic. I mean, they, like, what he's doing with these programmers is so magician-like, what Garland's doing. But the stuff outside is subject to a little bit of stupid TV logic, unless, of course, we're going to get to the plate part where he pulls the top off the tray and is like, look what I've prepared for you. It's all fucking, it's all a trick. It's also an issue of status because Forrest, at least through four episodes, which I believe is half the show, is essentially omnipotent, not only in terms of his, I'll say status, stature, his place in the world and meeting with senators able to manipulate doctors and policemen at his will, unimaginable wealth.

but also, as we learned in this episode, his ability or interest in seeing not just the past, but also most likely the future. Lily's status in relation to him is so, so trivial, which should fuel our allegiance to her, right? It's a David and Goliath thing. But the show hasn't really been that interested in showing us a mechanism in which she could even the stakes or in some way reach for us on his level. They really are in many ways operating in completely different shows.

One show is plot-driven and a little bit less of a good hang. The other show is so speculative, so imaginative, so aesthetically fascinating, but inert. But I am enjoying that one a lot more. You mentioned San Francisco. This show filmed San Francisco. It's so beautiful the way it filmed San Francisco. I love all of the drone shots, all of the establishing shots, all of the vistas. it looks completely unreal.

And, you know, it's like the way Michael Mann does Los Angeles or Miami, where there's something about the way that Garland is doing these, the same angle that 100 different filmmakers might use to shoot a cityscape. And they're doing things with visual effects and with music and just cinematography, that your awareness that you were in an altered reality is so keenly tuned in. But it's also capturing a vision of a city. that isn't necessarily the way it looks if you were to just take your camera out

and take a picture of it, but is the way it feels. It looks the way it feels. And you're absolutely right about the way Michael Mann shoots Los Angeles like that. It's like a fever dream of what the city actually is, even though sometimes when you're in the forest,

you don't see those individual trees. San Francisco is such a strange anomaly in this moment, and people who live there, I'm sure, have even weirder stories to say about it, but such an old kind of gnarly warts in all place that has also become this tech fever dream of money and ambition and of upgrading itself, you know? And so all of that being alive in the way his camera works on this, on these vistas. And it's also there in the storytelling in a way that I appreciate. I mean, the role that the homeless guy outside of Lily's apartment is going to play remains unknown.

it's nothing more than what it already has done. But I think I said this after episode one, it is the sign of someone who's very clearly thinking about the type of story he wants to tell in a way that I really appreciate. And it's keeping me from, I mean, I haven't hit the eject button. No, yeah. I think that the, he's got me under his spell.

It's been, I'll be really curious to see because I noticed like Vulture's not recapping it. And I think you can find, week-to-week coverage of it. And, you know, hindsight is 20-20. But I wonder whether it would have played better if they had dropped it all at once. Oh, I think Vulture is not recapping

some of the best shows of the year so far. Yeah, like Tiger King, I haven't seen any recaps of. Tiger Prince. Yeah. It's interesting to put it that way. I don't know. I mean, it is also, as we talked about at the very beginning, a tweener, right?

it was created and produced for FX. It has act breaks where the commercials were supposed to go. Yeah. And instead it's being aired week to week like it would be on FX, but on FX on Hulu with essentially a seamless. Assuming you subscribe to Hulu, you don't have commercials there, but it still has those act breaks. So I don't know.

You can't even, it was designed to be something that it actually isn't right now. Well, we'll probably do a mailbag either for, for this Thursday's episode or for next Monday's episode of the pod. So I'd be curious if people are writing in, let us know how you're watching devs or whether or not devs has become appointment viewing for you, whether you watch it when it drops on Hulu or whether you save them up, because I'd be really curious to know.

Before we get out of here, let's talk about my child, 00-0-0. You know, Chris, it's just, we should talk. Until we both thought of the multiverse of, novels out there and both landed on Alan first as the thing we most wanted, most wanted to see adapted without consulting each other about it. I was a little worried about us because on this podcast just a few days ago, you told me in no uncertain terms that I couldn't handle the show, that I was

not ready for this show. Right. And I think it was because there's a certain scene in the first episode that involves a very gruesome and very awful on-screen death. And I think that's probably why you thought I couldn't handle it. And I struggled with that. You're not talking about when they feed the guy to the pig, are you? No, I don't care about that guy. Pigs got to eat. Look, it's fair play.

I had a ham sandwich earlier today. No, there's a truly tragic victim of some gunfire in a marketplace in Montseries. Mexico in this episode. That is no pun intended to trigger for me. That was very difficult to watch. But I was able to watch the whole episode, and I was also able to really enjoy it because, first of all, this is purely on a production level.

Again, I know we've been talking about things more and more in those terms, and that's where my head has been, and so that's one of the reasons why I'm just so in awe of devs. This show is phenomenal undertaking. Holy shit, yeah. It's beautifully directed. It is the production design in multiple locations. all over the world is immaculate.

So it's immediately gripping. But the other thing about it is just not actually that high-minded at all. It's like we were saying a minute ago, like it takes a lot of negative boxes. It's kind of humorless. It has some scenes of pretty gnarly violence. These are things I don't normally like or I'll normally complain about. But it is a really cracking story with global implications, with fantastic performers up and down the call sheet.

And sometimes that's kind of all it takes because there's a moment in this. I was enjoying it. I was on. There wasn't a single second I was bored. And then there's that scene in this first episode where we we cut to New Orleans as our third location. And we're with Gabriel Byrne and Dane DeHon and Andrea Rysborough. And they're, um, they're decidedly not New Orleans. Not at all.

But they're buying a, they're buying a vessel. Yes. a tanker. Yeah. And one of the people they're talking with is Checky Cario who's a French actor

who is incredible in the show The Missing and people maybe remember him from Lafam Nikita many, many years ago. He's just one of those guys.

And I'm like, oh, this show knows what it's doing because it got that guy. It got that guy and he's going to be on this show and that's the kind of guy you want on this show.

You want these sort of global world-weary performers who are going to just the right amount of intensity and also self-awareness to the story so that it can be both the kind of

tabloidy journalistic cinema verite like this is what's really going on underneath the the socially acceptable veneer of your economy sheeple like version of the story but also like... Sure. It could also be like a family story

it's also a story. I mean the Monterey stuff is almost like a horror movie. What I mean is that people are also aware that some people are going to, some people don't watch Scarface for the articles. You know what I mean? Like some people, some people watch it for the pornography. I've mixed the metaphors, but you know what I'm saying.

And that is a tough balance to strike. And so far the show seems to be doing it in a way that I find very, very entertaining. This is very similar to your Ozark reaction, which was your disbelief that I said, I didn't think you were going to rock with this. Ozark comes back. on Friday, by the way.

The third season is quite good from what I've seen so far. How much more of Ozark did you wind up watching? I watched the entire first season. Yeah. I could actually probably summarize the second season for you

pretty quickly. But I hope you keep watching zero zero, because I'd love to talk about it some more. I'm definitely going to keep watching it. How about that Maguire score? Yeah, that's the other thing about it. It's so good.

Those guys are in the pocket, man. Oh, my God. That is sometimes, you just, sometimes the right players are on the right team, man. It is really high quality. And I sent to you, the thing that actually pushed me over the edge was I saw online

this weekend, like Stephen King, who knows the thing or two about a cracking story, was like, this is exceptional. This is my favorite thing right now. And I think it's just, what a weird world we're in where, entertainment-wise, let alone, obviously, the larger world, where like, this is such an expensive,

high-class, worthwhile thing. And it's just sort of quietly sidled its way into Amazon Prime. And maybe it's finding its audience. Because it's on Amazon Prime, we won't know, but it deserves an audience. Before we get out of here, can I just,

can I have a publicity corner and talk about tonight's prior patch? Of course you can, man. Because I know most of our listeners already have their DVR set for wrestling, which I believe is better in front of empty chairs, because then all of the chairs in the arena can be used as weapons,

which is something that happens in wrestling. So I feel like it's only increased the unpredictable nature of my favorite televised sport. That said, really excited about tonight's episode and the next run of episodes. I feel like this show in many ways creatively, we sort of found our groove and slipped back into the pocket. This is a very wild and weird episode. It has some sort of kitchen sink melodrama stuff that I didn't know we could do. Brian Garrity and Christine Woods are so good and so exciting on tonight's episode. And I was able to do things like this is.

also at the point of the season where we had the parts cast pretty much when scripts were coming in and and i was working on them and with with the writers and so we could say well we have ed asner for this part and so we can give him his ned badie and network moment and also have him cut his cheese on the screen iisha porter christie a wonderful incredibly talented writer um with the script on this one samira radzi german director who worked on georgland 83 and it's just a delightful presence directed it yeah i wish i could say that we were going to have guests to talk about it on Thursday. We, we, not sure how we will, but maybe if we do do some sort of mailbag thing, like if you guys have a Briar Patch Corner, I would love to keep talking about it. Yeah, let's do that. We'll definitely do Briar Patch Corner in it.

So 11 p.m. tonight, if you are watching it, boy, it would be awesome if you watched it tonight, or, you know, within the plus three days. I'm just going to throw that number out there. That would help me keep my Tiger Kingdom. And we'll talk more about this episode that's airing tonight. We'll talk about it on Thursday. All right. Listen, everybody, stay indoors. stay safe. I mean, watch TV shows.

Andy and I just ran down like 15 shows and books for you guys to consume. Fire it up on your Kindle. Get books delivered to you whichever way is the most responsible. Take care of independent booksellers

if you're looking for those titles. And yeah, zero zero, Deves, Tiger King, so many shows to watch. And listen, don't be like, Chris,

don't call your local restaurant and complain about their menu strategy. Don't be like, I've been to a restaurant before you don't need to explain how we do things here. Like, this isn't the time. I know what Chris was saying a little while ago,

but, like, you know, be respected. I'll see you on the big picture. Can't wait. Can't wait. Bye.