The Watch - What We Watched Over the Holiday: ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes’ and ‘Glass Onion.’ Plus, the ‘Fleishman Is in Trouble’ Finale

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about what they watched over the winter holidays, including ‘SAS: Rogue Heroes’ (1:00), ‘Babylon’ (17:00), and ‘Glass Onion’ (25:59). Then they talk about Netflix canceling ‘1899’ after just one season (35:08) and the series finale of ‘Fleishman Is in Trouble’ (44:31). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about the albums you love with Dissect, a music analysis podcast hosted by me, Cole Kushna, a lifelong musician and composer. Each season of Dissect dives deep into a single album, forensically dissecting the music, lyrics, and meaning of one song per episode. Our newest season is covering Tyler the creator's Igor, a beautifully honest album in which Tyler explores love, communication, masculinity, and truth. Listen to Dissect today only on Spotify, because great art deserves more than a swipe. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

Trimfaya, gusalcumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, the speaker of the house.

It's Andy Greenwald. I was going to vote for you. I was going to vote for you. Oh, hey. Oh, no. 2000 and 23, the year of our big L. And we are back to watch. Another one.

More shows, more talk about shows, more talk about. the town that makes those shows. And it's so great to do it with my best bud, Andy Greenwald. It's great to see you. I haven't podcasted in a 10 days, something like that. So I'm ready. I'm ready to rock. Are you ready or are you like Tyrese Maxie's jump shot?

Are you a little flat? No, I'm fine. I'm fine. And you just got to play yourself back into shape. It's okay. But I don't. I'm ready to go. I'm slinging right off the bench.

Did you look over my list of demands that I faxed just before the holidays about if I were to continue on as speaker of this podcast, like, or continue to allow you to be speaker on this podcast some of the things that I would require, such as like the ability to recall you at any time. Like, did you, did you agree to my terms? I did. I did. I feel like if I have, uh, my ideology is such that, you know, it's like if you, if you guys aren't with it, then I'm happy to step aside and let some more, um, you know, progressive voices take over. That's fine. That's terrific. That's very, very, very, That really speaks highly of you.

We have a lot of stuff to cover. Yeah, pretty much. A lot of stuff went down. We will put a little punctuation mark at the end of Fleischman is in trouble, which we've been chatting about on and off throughout its limited season run, limited series run. But I kind of wanted to catch up on what we were checking out over the holiday break. Do you mean in terms of TV and movies or like the very kind note,

outgoing Arizona governor Doug Ducey wrote for Katie Hobbs? And do you think he would have written? written a similar note to your girl, Carrie Lake, had she been seated, in her rightful. Is she rightfully if it been seated? Right. Were you salty when you saw that Doug did that? Doug sold out his fellow repug? Look, man. Leave no stone on turn. Carrey's not out of it yet. Incredible. I really wanted to bring this bid into 2020. She still has a couple more filters to throw on her on her Zoom camera, if you know what I'm saying. Andy, where do you want to start?

So I had a couple of things that I watched over the break that I thought would be useful to chat about, not only because I'm recommending them, but also because they're entries into larger conversations about TV and movies right now. But I thought, you know, one of the cool things that you did, one of the things I admire you always for is because you just march to it, you march to the beat of your own drum. And right as the ninth inning, as people were getting ready for the ninth inning on the 10 best movies. 10 Best Shows of the Year list that we did with Sam Mazzmell, the episode we did Sam. You were like, out of fucking nowhere, I'm throwing the English on my list. And I was just like, this guy, he never ceases to surprise me. I believe you did say this guy. I think you said it in the moment before I hit record.

I wanted to say that like kind of inspired by that, you know, I did a little bit of spulunking in the late year slash stuff I missed in 2022. of shows over the course of the quote-unquote break that we had, where I was just like, kind of like, oh, what did I miss? What did I miss? Let me check this out. Let me check that out.

And I fell in love with the show. I fell in love with the show so hard, it probably would have made my top 10 had I watched it at that time. And that is rogue heroes. Are you up on this? I'm asking you that, like, I know you are up on this because I've been texting you about it for nine days. But this is, this is Stephen Knight,

who obviously did Piki Blinders, is an incredibly prolific screwdriverer, did taboo, is responsible for the up. upcoming great expectations. He did lock, right? Adaptation. He did lock. The greatest movie ever about the concrete poor.

He wrote a hysterically so bad it's good movie called Serenity with, I believe, Matthew Cunningtonian, Anne Hathaway. Oh, that's amazing. He wrote that movie. Yeah. So this show Rogue Heroes, I would describe as a funnier Peeky Blinders or like an erudite Guy Ritchie kind of. That's the tone that sort of it gets hit. It stars Conner Swindolls, who people may know from sex education and vigil,

the submarine show that I loved last year, as well as Jack O'Connell from the North Water, and Alfie Allen from Game of Thrones, and Sophia Betella, who was in... She was the mummy. She was the mummy, but she's been in... I mean, she was in climax as well, and she's in a bunch of stuff.

She's in the upcoming Zach Snyder movie, and Dominic West in the kind of like... You guys just tell me where to show up. up. What a third act. He is honestly in like a couple of interior scenes. Like he just does this in this on the same set and and just knocks it out of the park.

It is about the formation of the British SAS in the North Africa campaign in World War II. And it is just been absolutely the most like rewarding entertain. Not rewarding makes it seem like I'm changed as a person. It just confirmed a lot of things that I wanted in my life, which is basically funny. action-packed genre TV that is told with like absolutely like top-notch professional aplomb. And I got to say that, Conor Sondells is an incredible leading man. Like this, this guy I wasn't really up on him, but he should play James Bond. I don't know. Like he's really, really great in this. So it does the same tiki blinders thing that has somewhat

anachronistic, quite anachronistic music. So most of the music in, in rogue heroes, is the work of ACDC, one of my favorite rock bands. So it has that kind of like swagger to it. But I know you checked it out as well after multiple badgering text messages. Explain also for people where they can see it because it's not the simplest. So it's on, it's a copro between epics and BBC or it's a BBC show that Epic's picked up over here. You may have epics on your cable package. I would say that the easiest way to do it is that I have found is just to go to your Apple TV.

have that look up Rogue Heroes and sign up for epics for if you can cram it you can do it in a week or Andy first episode's free you do not need to sign up for anything um also small spoiler warning uh at some point soon epics is going to turn into mgm plus i believe which is weird because it's so but that's not amazon even though amazon oms ngm now yes correct okay boy we're right back into it um yeah so here's the thing chris like i don't i'm sure many people who listen to this podcast listen to it primarily because they are C.R. heads and they love you. And they have probably in a quest to find out more about the man, the mystery that is Chris Ryan, because you keep a lot off mic. You know what I mean? Like you are a man of shadows. You are a rogue unto yourself.

They Google you probably. And when you Google Chris Ryan or you Google Grandland or you Google any of us where the suggested next topic is Chris, like a picture of Bill Simmons might appear or Sean Fennacy, right, or the Philly Fanatic. But also under Chris Ryan, there's a picture of a guy who looks like an S-A-S-Rogue hero. And you click on that. And this is the other Chris Ryan. British genre writer, Chris Ryan. What I want to say is...

My goal in life is to also be British genre writer Chris Ryan. This is what I'm getting at. When I watched the first episode of this show, I was like, ah, we have finally fixed the multiverse. both Chris Ryan's are now a singularity because I think that if you dug into each Chris Ryan's brain pan from opposite sides of the Atlantic Ocean

and just scraped off the top layer threw it under a microscope ACDC would play and the first scene in the desert with the fuel convoy would then unfurl, right? Yes. Like this is so Chris Ryan Corps in all senses that I felt closer to you as a friend in watching it.

I appreciated you checking it out. No, which isn't to say I didn't like it. Because as I also said to you, I was a little sleepy, and this is a fun show even if you are a little sleepy. It is just, you know, I just think it's a novel by one of the Chris Ryan's, and it's actually called like mince pies and M15s. It is just so every single thing that you love. I think that Chris Ryan, who is active, an active novelist is a little bit more Rainbow Six style. Like he gets it in with like the Tom Clancy heads. This is obvious.

I think this is a book by Ben McIntyre called S-A-S Rogue Heroes or something like that. So it's in Egypt. It's in the 40s. Yes. Alfie Allen has had enough of gutting men under moonlight and decides he wants to go to Burma to help fight the Japanese. Like, it's, you know, there are people, and I've just read a great, Chris, I've just read a great work of historical fiction as well. Just a slight recommendation, a book called Five Decemors by James Kestrel, really good. And you're holding out on me.

I was like, what's up with you in reading? It was like, are you illiterate now? And you, you were like, oh, I just don't have time. My eyes. No, that's not what. Okay, sidebar. We can talk about my little reading issues. I'd like to talk about that with you because, you know, we haven't spoken in a minute.

But just to say that like these types of stories are generally about people who are like, hmm, contemporary, you know, what did blur say? Modern life is a bit rubbish. If only there was a war I could go fight. and I hear those stories and I'm like, I don't, I don't relate to this. Right. This is not, this would not be my path, you know. But I think there's something that it rings a bell inside of you, these types of stories. Yes.

Yeah. It really does. It does. I'm not really there for the war crimes so much as the camaraderie, you know, and they, this show is pretty violent, so I will, I will say that. And I think somewhat swashbuckling in its approach to violence. So if you're looking for a slightly more consequential or sober take on life during wartime, this probably isn't the thing for you.

But it has style for days. You know, it's really like Knight really knows how to build out, especially in like this six episode structure that he has here for this first season. I think there's a second season on the way. It really has legs, you know. And I think that he also found three weeds who carry. a lot of a lot of the charm

into it. You know, I mean, you can write the dialogue but Conner Swindell says the word fuck in this show with such panache

that I, you know, I just really appreciate it. I, this podcast has always trended a little bit anglophilic and in its interests,

you know, but I am having a moment where, it's a jam session are the two foremost sort of anglochaling. Yeah. That's true.

And I've been having, I've been thinking this a lot. Like this show, is almost entirely, I mean, obviously it's about the British Special Forces, so no one in Tinseltown was like angling to get their take on this in front of the cameras first. This wasn't like a deep impact Armageddon situation. This is their story to tell. But the space within the British TV industry for this feels very vital and appropriate and good. You know, it's like it is,

exactly as you said, it's, it just is what it is. It's so comfortable in its sort of swashbuckling skin, and that's very fun. It's not trying to solve any problems or, undue past wrongs or even acknowledge any potential wrongs. It's just having fun. Yeah. You know, and I kind of, I really did respond to that. I also felt, to your point about these actors, you know, the other thing, I don't want to step on what your next bit was, but I know that we both spent a lot of time watching

Matilda the musical on Netflix in the late days of December, and which is very good. And as I was watching it, I was like, it's just, it's really not fair how much better English actors are than American actors. Like, it's just dumb. And it's cute that we pretend. And we have a couple here and there who can do some stuff, you know, and have some abilities and can do some things. But it is like watching the World Cup final and then thinking like, that's so cute that we played in the same tournament and said we were playing the same sport because they're just better at it. And they just have so many of them who can sell each type of thing.

Because I don't, again, I totally did just steal your thing about rogue heroes to talk about Matilda the musical. But I just feel like, Chris, if I had told you that there was a new movie starring. Stephen Elliott, Andrea Rysborough, and Emma Thompson, you'd be like, cool. Sure. Those are all amazing actors.

I can't wait to see what they're going to do next. And it's Matilda the musical. How many times did you wind up having to watch that? Andrew Rysbroseberg is as good in this as she was in zero zero. You know what I mean? It's really intense that you could just do both and more.

It's good. Did your kids demand multiple viewings? Yeah, it's now trended into the like, you have to put it on in the car and listen to it. And I actually think, again, I think the musical is pretty good and the songs are pretty good. Well, I feel that way about Highway to Hell by ACDC. Now it's sort of been accompanying me on all of my journeys after hearing it in the opening scenes of Rogue Heroes. I did have to say, after getting out of a 3.30 p.m. showing of Puss and Boots, the last wish yesterday. and you emerge into like cold, swirling L.A. rainy darkness.

And then the girls were like, now put on Matilda the musical. And I was like, Daddy needs a minute. Daddy needs not to be yelled at by fictional characters for 10 minutes. Yeah. I checked out a couple of other things that I think we need to keep our eyes on. Oh, okay. So, you know, at the end, for the end of 22, it's always tough. Because obviously, for instance, last year, or 21 into 22, we had Station 11, and that had come out.

Obviously, that had been kicking around. And I believe Max, what did they do? Like three episodes and then 1-1-1-1. Or wasn't there like a kind of odd rhythm to the release schedule? Let's check Pat Somerville's Twitter feed because I feel like he's probably reminding us what they did a year ago on it right now. I'm sure he's also monitoring Aaron Rogers' current haircut. very closely. Anyway, the, you know,

it's always easy to, to, like, lose a show here and there at the end of the year. Sure. Slips through the cracks. Obviously, I got to catch up on Southside. I've started the third season. I love that show more than anything. And then I kind of want to...

I spent some time with Southside, I got to say. Yeah, I'm kidding. I didn't finish the second season. I'm catching up. That show is just, it's so good. Yeah. And everyone should be talking about it, including us. And then, uh, are you going to fuck with George and Tammy at all? I decided no. You know what?

At the end of the year, I made a resolution. George and Tammy, no. Avatar, no. Just going to move on. First of all, you were all about going to see Big Jim. You couldn't wait to get the way of the water going through your veins. So you think you're going to skip that? At the multiplex yesterday, as I was, okay, full disclosure, I did, I seated the children in the Puss and Boots screening and got the Skittles.

And then I just realized that this was a two-hour film. And I was like, excuse me, girls, Daddy saw a draft beer concession and the line wasn't so long. And I need a course, like, to get me, speaking of way of water, I need that to get me through this film. And as I walked back from concessions the second time, some people were coming out of, I believe, hour six of Avatar 2. And someone said, this is a direct quote from a paying consumer as they took off their 3D glasses. It's when they learned the way of the water, that's where it lost me. Yeah. That's Vox Populi, baby.

If that's, if that loses you, how can I, in good faith, enter into a movie with that title? If you're going to see a three-hour film in the theaters, please go see a bat one. Wow. I really loved it. It loses a little bit of esteem towards the end, which it's also built into the plot that it would lose steam it towards the end. But it is really, really, like, quite an achievement on a lot of levels. I'm shocked by this. This has really thrown me

that you're team of Babylon. I'm not even like, I would say I'm a fan of Damian Chazel stuff. I actually like really liked First Man quite a bit. I obviously loved Whiplash. I had some mixed feelings about Lala Land, but this is just a tremendous, like, thrill ride. And Sean and Amanda did a great podcast about it the other day.

They did one on Babylon and White Noise, which I also saw. And also very anxious to hear your takes on white noise. But yeah, with George and Tammy, it's just crazy that Michael Shannon and Jessica Chastain are top lining a limited series

drama about George Jones and Tammy Winnett and I'm kind of like I'll either get to where I won't I guess I'm not like to be to be honest not a huge like I just don't have a lot of curiosity about those characters personally

so it's not like I've been waiting all my life to see their lives dramatized but it's just strange especially at the end of the year but I know a lot of people have enjoyed it. Wait, can I go, can I just stand Babylon for a second? Because before we started recording, you said something that I need to make you accountable for. Okay.

Just like the officials in Maricopa County. You were like tough beat for Damien. Yeah, because that movie made 11 million. I, look, I've said, I think we ended the year with me being like, don't worry about financial successive things like support art. So that is still basically my, my, that's my bread and butter, right? Yeah. But I have never seen a more guaranteed...

I'm supporting art. You're supporting the Coors Light Corporation. It was... It really helped, Chris. It really helped. I have never been more certain of a catastrophic box office failure than of Babylon.

And I am not in charge of anything. Like, it is so crazy to me that people are like, wow, this three-hour movie about Hollywood snorting itself that features an elephant shitting on someone lost money in this economy?

Like what, paint me a picture, like one of your French girls in which this movie is somehow a success, financially. Again, it might be good. I'm going to see it, and I'll argue the other end of it,

but the people are like, oh my goodness, if it can happen to Damien, it can happen to the rest of us. What? What are we doing? I do wonder whether or not, generally speaking.

So, like, so many people are so now, like, keyed into, hey, if I'm going to spend my time and my money doing something, I want to have a sense of what I'm getting myself into. And saying that it's full of virtuistic filmmaking and that the performances are great and that it sounds great

and that it has this incredible energy to it, there's not like a plot to Babylon. It's about the rise and fall of these people from the 1920s to the 1950s as the silent film era ends, the talkie era begins. And the way that Hollywood chews up and spits out the people who make the magic.

that we all love, right? I wonder whether or not if it was about like this silent film star is trying to get one last great silent film made before everything changes. Or there is no singular like driving plot engine

or thing that the entire story hinges on. It hinges on a million things. So to say it's like, it's like Goodfellas or Wolf of Wall Street, but Hollywood, I'd almost be interested to see what would happen if Wolf of Wall Street came out and DiCaprio is,

side and Scorsese aside. Like, if Wolf of Wall Street came out, it was just like, yeah, it's about the rise and fall of this traitor. Like, do people need more of a hook now? Well, also, isn't Wolf of Wall Street funny? Because my sense, Damien Chazel has never struck me as like a laugh sky, right? It's funny, like, behaviorally, it's not funny, like, the lines aren't funny. Like, I wouldn't say it's got, like, a lot of knee-slapper punch lines. I just am in, I'm just, I'm very confused by, like, the decision-making behind, budgets and what movies are getting made and what, like, it just is so bizarre to me because I think I am not Joe Popcorn. I'm Dr. Joseph R. Popcorn the third in the sense that, like, I went to

graduate school and I study this stuff. And gun to my head, I can't, I think Amsterdam and Babylon are the same movie. Right. You know what I mean? Like Margot Robbie worked with two serious, let's say, like intense male directors to make period or romps in which she ostensibly plays the same character and they're released within two months of each other and they both lose more than the GDP of Portugal. I just need like, I need Jonas Serra from the Times. I need the Hollywood fixer. I just need something to be like, what are we doing right now?

Do you think like the next time Margot Robbie walks into like an office in Hollywood and is like, all right, guys, it's the 1920s and I play and then it'll just be like the Dr. Evil like Wolf Farrell scene? Yes. I just am very confused by all of it. But I also think that I'll leave this to Sean and Amanda, or maybe we could do another home and home crossover pod because I don't understand this Oscar season at all. Now, what we will do, I know we've talked about this. I've seen a bunch of the movies. We've sort of alluded to the fact that we've each seen some of the movies. I haven't seen Babylon or White Noise, which I think are important to check in on. So I will, and we will do some sort of our feelings about these movies. But it's a very, very weird season to meet. And it's partly the kind of stuff streaming, stuff's not streaming, you know, world that we all live in now, but also the sort of clawing back to figure out what is a movie and how you should see it and what we're aiming for. Like, because we, I asked you, I was like, well, what are the front runners now? And I've heard people say, and this is for Oscar

stuff, you know, which is generally why there have been movies, these types of movies released at this time of year. And I've heard everything from Top Gun Maverick is going to win Best picture to, oh, the Fableman's has it in the bag. Now, I thought the Fableman's was shockingly bad, and I look forward to saying this more publicly in having a conversation about it. More publicly than what you just did. Yeah. Kaya, redact that. Kaya, turn the TikTok camera on. Turn it off. But, like, I don't think, what world does that win best picture when it's like, it's not, it's not, it's not, successful, it's not critically adored, it's just the thing that has the shape and feel of a movie

that's supposed to win best picture? So does Babylon. I mean, Babelon is about Hollywood's greatest interest, which is itself. And it's a movie star, multiple movie stars. And is, check the curating on Margo after this. No, but Brad Pitt's a movie star. Margo Robbie is, is in big movies. I mean, I think I'm being snarky about that. No, I just think there's a version of the award season. that's top gun, everything everywhere all at once, uh, and glass onion, like just theoretically.

And that's like movies that lots of people have seen and movies that lots of people have lots of opinions about and care about deeply, but typically aren't the tar bansheanties of Inishiren, Fableman's level move, the whale movies that people are like, I think actually throwing all the hosanna's at and giving all those sort of lead up awards to. So I, I guess,

and this is, this is a podcast, so it's subjective, so I'm allowed to say stuff like this, because obviously I'm very biased, this is personal opinion, but if everything you just said, like tar and Top Gun, I think,

are the best movies that I saw last year. Yep. And those would make sense to me, even though they couldn't be more different, in a best picture conversation, because I'm not only did I deeply love them, just on a subjective level, I feel like they accomplished their goals,

you know, as cinema, as as movies. They just did what they set out to do and they did it spectacularly. Obviously, they were not setting out to do the same thing, although I would pay any amount of money to see Kate Blanchett play Maverick.

Or to fucking play the plane. I mean, I would just love her to be in that universe, but yeah. Both movies about cancel culture. You know? Thank you. Let's keep doing this. Both movies featuring... The Navy tries to cancel Pete Mitchell.

Lydia Tar would have been more successful if she had a Honda in her corner. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think Nina Haas is supposed to be that. But, like, yeah, I think that definitely. Nah, Honda's more loyal. You want to talk a little bit about Glass Onion? A little bit.

Yeah. Because I spent some time on the Netflix service this offseason. I checked out Collidescope, which is something I'd like to chat with you about. Yeah. So Collidoscope is this show from Eric Garcia, whom I think if you know his name, you probably know him as the writer of Matchstick Men, which is a beloved Nick Cage movie from a while back.

And he wrote this heist drama for Netflix called Collidescope starring John Carlos Spizito and Pasvega and Jai Courtney, a bunch of people. And I guess I'm trying to think of how I would describe it. It doesn't really matter. The point, the really like the most important part about it is it is a heist drama with like a kind of CBSE sheen to it so far,

as far as the episodes that I've seen, I've seen too. It's very like palatable. The whole hook with it is that you can watch the episodes in any order. So each episode is named after a color. There are, you can just watch it in the order that Netflix has up or you can go random. You can choose, there's a really good Keith Phipps has an article up on Vulture about like all the various ways one could watch it, including the way he wished, he wished he had watched it, which is what I am following. But it's doubt. I'll definitely be curious to see if it catches on if it becomes a thing, which, you know, sometimes you can just tell by word of mouth and sometimes you can just see from the Netflix TV,

you know, the top 10 that they have. So I watched that and I'd like to chat with you about that more extensively at some point. But glass onion's really been the sort of, the sort of crown jewel of Netflix over the last couple of weeks. You had mixed feelings to say the least about Knives Out. Yes. Where are we at with the, with the Benoit verse now?

I always struggle talking about these movies because I am a supporter of everything surrounding them. Like Ryan Johnson as a filmmaker,

the idea that an older, established, beloved genre could be reinvigorated, could be resurrected, that movies can and should be fun, that movies can and should take big swings and big chances

and try to get groups of people together to enjoy them. The spirit behind all of that is tremendous. And I think we said on this pod, I wish that I had had the opportunity to go see this in the theater. And I was really, A.O. Scott's Review in the Times was the same thing, where he was just basically like, I saw this in the theater with people and everyone was laughing and hanging on the same things. And that was a joyous experience.

that we don't have a lot of anymore. I certainly didn't have it in Puss and Boots the last wish yesterday, especially once the Corps ran out. Of the entire theater. Coors did you train? Garsohn, keep them coming. Is that you? Corporal Hondo.

What do they call Garcans in Colorado? Hondo, probably, yeah. They call them hondos. Yeah. That said, I am not a, fan of the movies. Right. I don't know.

I'm just trying, I'm trying to be delicate and be polite about it, but they rub me the wrong way. Particularly this one, it had a, it has a sort of a tone and a swagger and a winky,

we're all laughing at the same thing, thing that I didn't understand where it was coming from because I didn't find it particularly funny. I didn't, I didn't, maybe it would have been different in a theater, but I felt like I was,

I'd walked into the wrong party, and I did not enjoy the experience. I disliked this movie in comparison to Knives Out. I like... Yes, I liked it less. I would say that. I didn't have, like, a bad time watching it. I watched it with my mom. I thought that she was a pretty good litmus test,

whereas, like, in the middle of the movie, a lot of the mystery is essentially, like, unraveled, which is totally fine. Like, I think that there's been this weird, like, argumentative discourse about, like, whether or not it's funny or whether or not it's a good mystery or what it's supposed to be. And leaving all that aside, I think that for me, the first knives out was, here's a bunch of people stuck in a house together, drawn together over this, obviously,

this fortune that's up for a group grabs. But they have to be together because they're a family, right? Like that they're, despite their differences, they're linked by these familial bonds. I had no idea why anybody in this movie, like, knew one another. Aside from apparently they're all. hustlers and disruptors who used to hang out at a bar and then all had these exponential growth periods where they became governors and scientists and whatever except for the Genome and A character.

So I thought, that always just felt like static to me, whereas I was like, why would this person, this person, this person, and this person be friends with each other at all, much less later into life. and then also all revolve around this Edward Norton, Elon Musk character. But, you know, I was, one of the things that hit me about it, and I was reading, honestly, this is pretty pathetic, but I was reading a blog post about a podcast interview that Todd Field had done. You had a great, great, great, great vacation.

We're talking about like an hour ago. Todd Field was talking about his never, never realized adaptation of Jonathan Franzen's purity, which he was going to make with Daniel Craig. of all people. And the podcast, I think it was on Happy, Sad, Confused. The podcast host Josh Horowitz was like, well, would you ever go back to it? Did you guys, now that he's done with Bond and you're Mr. Tar, would you ever go back to it? And Todd Field was like, no, you know, the things that seemed prophetic about it when we were working on it are now, I think, would be too cute, you know? and I thought that

Glass Onion maybe through no fault of its own had a little bit of that and I think I'm still struggling with like how Hollywood reflects the last couple of years and it really has nothing to do

with the COVID stuff as much as like the way everybody talks to each other in this movie like they are just tweeting and that really did throw me off I also like I'm trying to like keep in mind that like this is not supposed to be

eight and a half. Like, it's not supposed, I think that these are fun, Johns. And within them being like genre movies that are supposed to really please an audience, I think that there's a lot to be taken from there. Like, Johnson has done extensive interviews about all the films that he screened for, you know, and thought that was thinking about and to catch a thief and different lenses. He was, I mean, like, he's obviously a very serious filmmaker having a lot of fun. This one just didn't work for me. I think that you're, it's tough to kind of put your finger on it, but I think that what you said about it feeling less like a living, breathing, adventurous movie and more like scrolling through Twitter at times, even if you follow very clever people, is accurate to me.

It, it did not feel lived in or alive. It felt like it was commenting on the comments. It felt like it was replying to itself. its objects of satire and derision did not feel particularly interesting to me, to be honest. They felt like people who might be interesting if you were still looking at Twitter. You know what I mean? I just feel like men's rights disruptor influencers on TikTok, like actually don't have a role in my life. And probably aren't friends with the governor of Connecticut. No.

The would be governor of Arizona, yes. in our just and righteous world, yes. So it just felt, it felt very broad in a way, in a type of story that I felt needs to be tighter and more specific. I don't know. Look, again, one of the reasons why this is sort of hard to jump into

is because I don't have a single, I don't have a single real negative feeling about anybody involved in this. You know, I really am glad that this, if it continues, and I guess, you know, at least Netflix bought another one of these, it is part of the original, you know, splashy purchase to take it out of theaters. There's going to be more of these people are enjoying them. And what you said is maybe the best way to leave it.

Like a very talented, serious-minded filmmaker is getting out of fun. It's having fun. And I generally applaud that. And I think that you were right. There was something about, I didn't love Knives Out, but I was perfectly happy to sit there and track it and twists and turns and look at Chris Evans' sweaters. Like, that was, I'm not a monster.

I'm not totally immune to it. This one just felt a little bit sour to me and a little bit lost in the sauce of its own game. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night

you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime

to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes,

swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. In other Netflix news? Yeah. Let's talk about that. They canceled 1899. Mm-hmm. And turn the TikTok camera on, Kaya. Because I want to mark this as what I wonder whether this is the first of like what's the over under 10.

10 things that we get to when we get to this time in 24. If we're going to be like, wow, they really like, Hollywood got cutthroat in 23. If something wasn't working financially or for Netflix, whatever the fuck that means, you know, like if they weren't getting the impressions from the Iberian, like, demographic that they needed or like, you know, like, whatever it is that they decided it didn't play in India or something. Like, or here, they cut bait on a show that I was under the impression was like getting, if not a flagship show was, hey, we spent a lot of money on this international television show that should play in a ton of different markets. And I believe a lot of the tech, like the volume style shooting that they did.

I don't know if Netflix owns that or provided. All I remember was that in the making of Dark, in the making of 1899, which was from the producers of Dark, which Netflix aggressively gave a three-season, you know, opportunity to tell its entire story. I was like, this 1899 is going to be a pretty big deal. And the whole value proposition for Netflix as a,

as a platform in general to me is things can catch on. You know, like you see it all the time when you're watching, when you're looking at their rankings and then all of a sudden like Emily the criminal is like, you know, obviously like in the top five movies because people are searching for Aubrey Plaza, right? Like things can catch on in so many different ways. I thought that was the new season of Emily and Paris. No, Emily and the Paris. Maybe people are also searching for Emily and Paris and they're like, oh, I guess she's a criminal now. But 1899 is the kind of show that people would have found, I think, eventually, for a variety of reasons, especially just through word of mouth. And I'm surprised, you know, I didn't think it worked as well

as dark, but I'm surprised that Netflix is cutting bait. And I wonder whether this is just one of those, like, it is not cost effective for us to make this show. I was shocked by this decision. I have not finished the first season. Frankly, I don't know if I will now. Because to your point, like, it was not nearly as compelling as dark. Maybe for some of the same reasons the glass onion wasn't as compelling as knives out. I mean, you take the family part out of it and it's just a bunch of random people put in a circumstance. It's hard to feel the emotional pull, especially when it's so, when plot is so paramount to these guys in the way that they tell stories. Right. But that aside, I profoundly don't understand what they're doing at Netflix. And I would love to get some intel on this.

we never know the whole story, even when we report things or read reported things that presume to know the whole story. So it's probably worth always reminding ourselves of that. It could be that there is some interpersonal issues. I'm not trying to like throw gas on a fire. I'm just saying you never know the real reason why things have happened. And if they don't make sense from our perspective, there might have been stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. So that's possible. But assuming it wasn't, assuming it was a fine, if expensive production, what are they doing? Because this to me, and publicly in the press, presented as Netflix saying, this is the business we're in now. So to circle back to your thing, these guys that created Dark, that was the first German language original in the service when they were doing there as like, you get a show and you get a show in each region as they were building themselves globally. It was a huge hit and it was a model show for their global expansion because it played in multiple countries. right? And these, and I don't have their names in front of me. I wish the creators are dark. The married couple, his name is not in front of me, I'll call it up. But they proved that they could deliver a tightly plotted and produced genre story. So then it's announced that they're giving them their next big opportunity is going to be a model for how they want these sorts of international productions to go in the future. And it was a huge investment in a studio with a volume that they could show. shoot an international show that was designed to play in all the markets that Dark played in, if not more, by bringing together actors from across Europe, consolidating production almost entirely on stages the way the Mandalorian shoots. This was their, it did what they said it was going to do.

Was the show good, bad, fine, growing? Who knows? But it was, by all accounts, this is what they intended to do with it. Yeah. And so the fact that then they pull the plug and they're like, nah, we're kidding. When they clearly only have four weeks of data, now, was there data concerning? Was it not trending enough? Was it, you know, should they have cast Aubrey Plaza as one of the Spanish dudes? Maybe. I don't know. I'm not in their heads, but like, it's really confounding. We've become comfortable with the idea of them cutting off shows that are growing or attracting fans in a more old-fashioned and thus not Netflix-y way. like a glow, for example,

which doesn't cost the catering budget of a show like this. But this is the new model of show. I don't understand the value, not just in terms of cutting it short now, but also what value does the first season have on their service now? Right.

They just seem so overly committed to the facility, the stages, the actors, the story, they must have written the second season, if not all three seasons. I'm sure that they plotted it out because they said in their, the creators set in their Instagram,

announcement that they were like, we had hoped like dark to tell this story over three seasons. So I can't imagine they were like, we'll let you know and we know. I'm sure that they pitched you. So it's Janja Fries and Barron Bo Odar, their names and the married couple that make the show, write and direct it, produce it. You've committed so much this already. So now you're cutting off the present, but also the future, because say you bite the bullet and pay for two more seasons and it's not as great as you want or it's not getting the ratings that you want. those three seasons exist forever on Netflix and someone's going to be watching them

and presumably if someone starts season one, a percentage of them a not insignificant percentage of them will watch the next two also. Well, hell, Andy, I mean, like, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of people out there who are like, I guess I shouldn't watch this because it's going to end on a cliffhanger

that never gets resolved. Yes, that's the other thing. This is the sort of behavior you see when the studio and the streaming service aren't the same, right? Two different people own it. And so they're not both committed in the same way.

Like, this is the sort of thing that we've seen shows get cut off, you know, unexpectedly or dumped or when strategies change, but Netflix made the show for Netflix. So what is their strategy? I just have no idea. And I wait for smarter minds or industry watchers to let me know and then translate it from German. Do you want to wrap up by talking about the wrapping up of Fleischman is in trouble? I really do. So speaking of slightly confounding,

I don't know. Why did they release this show when they did? If only because it's an incredibly worthwhile program. You and I think, I mean, we haven't talked about how it ended, but I think we were both big fans. We've talked to other people who we like and admire and respect and trust in the industry, and people are really onto it. People really admire it.

I think people broadly are like, we're so glad a show like this got made. It narrowly missed our top tens. I think it was on Sam's, or it would have been if you had finished it. Why did they air it so that the last episodes just fell off a cliff into the holidays? That just strikes me as odd when they have something that's good,

particularly something that got really interesting at the end. So broadly speaking, really worthwhile show, both for what they put on the screen and also... Did they air the first two first, or has it always been a weekly release? I believe the first two were available first. Sometimes FX is a little Catholic.

but I admire it. You know what I mean? Like, I think it makes... That's the only Catholic thing about Fleischman is in trouble, by the way. But I think they're just like, we're putting this up once a week.

Yeah. Like, I think that there are, the bear went up in its entirety, right? Like, different. But what, did the old man drop three or two? They dropped the two. They dropped the John Watts episodes and then,

and then spun it out weekly. And I like the weekly thing. It's just more of the timing in the year, in the calendar year. I wonder if it's bubble brain for us and we're like, why did they do this? And other people are like, great, I can watch Fleischman is in trouble while I'm like waiting for like my flight to take off or

something. You know what I mean? Like I think that there's you might be right a lot to be said for holiday bumps in, you know, if you're behind on this, catch up all your home. If, you know, I agree with you. I don't think it did great for it's being windowed into people's top tens, although I guess critics could have just watched all the episodes if they wanted to. Um, I, I suppose I'm more thankful that it didn't come out in that barrage of pre-M.E. stuff in the spring anyway. So I think it did what it was going to do. And I think that it's funny that we're talking about a show about like a guy having a

midlife crisis and a woman having a midlife crisis and their kids in New York. And they like almost as if it's like, what a brave bet to make? You know what I mean? Well, I feel like it was. I feel like it was. And they had to execute on such a high level to compete to almost prove itself. worthy, even though, as we said when we first talked about the pilot, that, like, this, this was mainstream entertainment in 1982, and now it is not. And so I am thrilled that it exists,

full stop, and I'm thrilled that they spared no expense and they committed to really talented people and that everyone from Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Daines, Lizzie Kaplan, Adam Brody, Josh Radner, the directors, Darius, Ferris and Dayton, and Sherry Springer Berman and Robert Polcini, and especially Taffi Brodus or Ackner, who wrote the novel and did a lot of the adapting herself. They all brought A-plus game. It's really just a quality production and in a really impressive way. My boy Radner came through at the end. Radner crushed this show.

I thought he was phenomenal in very small bites. So I want to ask you, though, I did want to have a conversation about the last two episodes because, and I wanted to preface it by saying how much I enjoyed the whole thing. I really liked it. but I have questions and I'm curious what your reaction were because there was a moment where I was like oh

this show is operating on a level that I didn't anticipate and is brave isn't the word but is more daring than I gave it credit for at the beginning like I would have been to quote Toby Fleischman at least once a year Dianu about it you know like that it was following him and then we get the moment when Libby Lizzie Kaplan's character sees Rachel Fleischman.

We're going to talk about the last few episodes. Sees her in the park. And what has been clearly brewing is now brought fully to light that she's not well. Something has gone awry. And then we get to the seventh episode, MeTime, which fills in the gaps

of Rachel's story. And all of a sudden, I had this moment where I was like, this is actually incredible genius jujitsu that the Fleischman that's in trouble isn't the one we've been following. That Toby actually has never been in peril. He's been going through some rough shit. He's been inconvenienced, yeah.

Yeah, and dealing with himself and his demons and, not demons, but his own roadblocks and his own emotional baggage. But he's been pushing through. And as Lizzie Kaplan's narrator keeps framing it basically, like, he keeps putting one foot in front of the other and he stumbles, but he keeps going. and he's actually not in trouble, which is very much in contrast

to his now ex-wife, Rachel, who is extremely in trouble and is having a kind of a mental break. That's actually the sequel is Fleshman is extremely in trouble. No, the sequel is Fleshman is in two-ruble. Like, you know, it's the two and then R-U-B-L-E.

And this episode is a powerhouse. It's an incredibly challenging watch at times. And it is why in, you know, 64 minutes why Claire Daines took this part. It's also like a showcase for what Claire Daines is as an actor, which frankly, I don't know if any British actors can do. She is such a unique emotional instrument. She is a primal scream of an actress. Yeah. She is. Yeah. And she doesn't fit in roles that don't allow her to scream or to at least sublimate the scream until it comes out. And so here it was. And it's just, I will say brave about this in terms of the

performance. And at the end of that episode, right, when Libby confronts Toby about what she's learned and what she's seen, and the episode has treated Rachel's journey with, like, real grace, real thoughtfulness. And he's like, I don't have to care about that anymore because I'm not married to her. I was really impressed. I was just really impressed at the way the show had done the kind of rope-a-dope with who our heroes were and who was in trouble and who wasn't in perspective. nothing in the finale changed that. I was no less impressed, right? I think they even say this.

They make a text that like everyone is a jerk and a hero and everyone is complicated. Like that's kind of what the show is saying. Again, we shouldn't have to throw flowers for a show for saying something that is emotionally true, but you know what? We do in 2023. But I was surprised the way the show through the Subaru in reverse and back. out of the Rachel's story to get to get us back into Toby to do the long detour into Libby and then sort of end with maybe Rachel will come back I I assume a lot of this is is accurate

to the novel which I haven't read but I was it was a come down for me from what I thought the show was going to do and it surprised me so that was a long preamble I was curious where you were with all that because the sudden detour into Rachel was I was like it didn't feel like a, oh, we have to settle the score before we can really get back to Toby. It felt full-bodied, fully invested. Oh, this is what the show has always been about. And it's about a guy who has the privilege and the, you know, and the ego to not have to notice. That's a really, so a lot to unpack there. I've been thinking a lot about adaptation over the last couple of weeks, especially after watching White Noise, which we'll chat about at some point, but it's very much a monument

to Noah Baumbach's, like, love of the novel, you know, in some ways. and his love of a lot of different filmmakers. I think it's his most cinematic movie in a lot of ways. But, you know, it's triggered a lot of, like, kind of thinking about, like, why people choose to adapt the stuff that they do and who adapts what and whether it's better to have someone who's very worshipful or a fan of the work that they're adapting versus, you know, oh, I'm using this as source material or as, like, a baseline or I'm, you know, bringing out certain qualities, but turning down some others.

So obviously Taffy adapted this book. And I would say that over the probably last third of the series and especially the finale, the Libby character becomes the main character, especially the POV character, and almost more importantly, the voice.

And I think that a lot of like the narration that almost became overwhelming for me in the last episode. And especially, the Rachel stuff in the second last episode where yeah, Claire Daines is putting on a clinic of how to cry and scream. But a lot

of what we're, our understanding of those scenes is narrated by the Libby character, played by Lizzie Kaplan, which is this sort of stand in for Taffy, I think. And so I was I liked it. I liked it a lot. Like I, and I was very

moved by the entire series and I was wondering what would have happened if it had adapted by somebody who didn't write the book. And whether or not, A, there would have been, I really don't need to know if Rachel is at the door at the end of the night. I assume she is, but, you know, I don't even, it doesn't matter.

And I loved the fact that the, Fleischman is in trouble, Fleischman is a stand-in for we're all in trouble, and everybody is going through their thing. And every time you think, you know, you're the only person who sees the truth of the world and understands the severity of all of the emotions you're experiencing. It turns out that the person next to you on the bus

or the person next to you in the bed or the person next to you in the restaurant is also having all the same feelings all the time. But it was kind of odd or there was something a little bit that threw me off about going through all of the events in the last two episodes and constantly being told how to feel about it or what it was by this narrator character. You know what I mean?

and I think it probably works great in the novel. I thought it was charming to watch because Lizzie Kaplan is good and the writing is good, but it was almost not suffocating. It just pushed out some of like the air of the show. I agree. I think it's a really interesting point about the narration because if you're living in a book, and again, sorry everybody, we have not read the book. Everybody, this is not like Game of Thrones.

But I do mean I can't speak with any knowledge about how the book is even narrated. But if it is narrated by the Libby character, the idea of the Seth and Toby and even Rachel being potential reflections or windows or mirrors for Libby to make observations about her own place in the world. And you get a little bit of that. You know, when she talks about, she was essentially skitching on Toby's singledom or his, the tumult in his life because it was lively and it reminded her of being alive. I think that I think that that is a little more consistent, I think the show did the best possible job of doing, of managing all those different perspectives and relating to each of them and understanding them as they reflected back on Libby,

but it's also a TV show. So we spend time with the other characters in a different way, specifically with Toby and then ultimately with Rachel, right? So it was harder to hold on to because there are these moments, and when the Toby plot is sort of left aside to go home to New Jersey with Libby for the bulk of the finale, it's left with that moment of him being of like renewal. Right, like he is going to, he felt a moment of optimism. Yeah. Something had settled. He was going to get a better apartment.

He was going to take the next real step forward and not be treading water in this way. And, okay, that's good. He is someone who hugs people whose wives have just died. He does have some goodness in the same way that almost everyone in the world has goodness in them and can perform it or legitimately feel it in circumstances. But I was kind of shocked that there was no actual. reckoning is kind of a dramatic word for a show that was comfortable leaving us in the sort of nuanced space that is real life. But like the callousness that he showed towards the mother of his children. Not throughout their marriage because you could understand that that was that path was well laid. Yeah. But in the spirit of them being, I think in her words, like co-captons of the ship, you know, of parenting. And that he just blew past that into online sexting and everything. And then had an absolute no empathy for. her complete terrifying breakdown and what that might mean

if his children didn't have a mother anymore. That was an odd place to leave it. And then the suggestion that she would walk back through the door was confusing to me because I didn't... And I don't think the show necessarily intended to suggest

that that would be a romantic reconciliation. As much as her being like, let me fill you in on what's been going on here. Yes, I'll open the door to you and really hear you and see you as a person and we can be co-captains of the good ship these children or whatever.

So maybe that's all possible, but that was the moment. I just agree with you, I think. I think the tricky perspective things that the show really succeeded in pulling off, they got a little trickier. Yeah, I mean, I ultimately loved it. And I think that, you know what it was? In my head, I think I'd built up the Claire Dane's episode so much. And it wasn't at all a clip show or like a montage of,

stuff that we had seen already because you know we hadn't really gone to the yoga retreat we hadn't seen her have this essentially breakdown in her apartment where she's losing time and starts falling asleep in the park and is missing meetings and all these things but do you know how like sometimes when you expect

something and you're it delivers you're almost let down because you're like that's what I thought it was going to be you know what I mean there wasn't anything more to it no it had nothing to do with the plot it was almost like Oh yeah, Claire Dane's doubt. Of course. Like, I didn't think that she was going to be just like, oh, I'm having a romantic interlude and have decided to vanish from my family for the summer.

You know, like, obviously something was happening. And in a weird way, I think you do wind up to your point, start picking at, like, how come Toby just dropped the investigation into where his wife was? I mean, I know she's like, he's like, I guess he figures she's been to the apartment that she owns. So she's obviously just a wrap. and is choosing not to interact with her children or her ex-husband. I also think, and I would imagine this is more,

you're just more able to articulate this in a book. He's never outside of his own head. He can be empathetic as a physician because he's comfortable in his position of authority in that role. I think the most... But all his friends are like, you only talk about yourself. And he does. He's a terrible friend, at least as from what we see. He just uses them.

He skitches on them, like the night out with Seth and everything. And the fact that Libby's like, I love you. I'm like, there's something dark hidden at the core of the show that we, with that line about, you know, your friends, your only true friends are the ones you meet in college, high Chris, because they, it's almost like because they're repositories of you, of you, of euness and have known you. So it's really about yourself, not about empathy to the other person. The darkest, darkest thing is, it's in voiceover, which maybe underscores your point.

But when Libby is describing Rachel's circumstance, when she was just like, she went to Toby because he was going to love her and not abandon her. And he spent their entire life threatening to abandon her because he wasn't happy with what she wanted and didn't see. And the show does a very good second time I'm saying it on the podcast, Ropa Dope of that, right? Where it's just like, these people are clearly awful. And big money, New York stuff is gross and private school and skiing and all this. that's a very alienating world to most and is gross. But we didn't see it from the perspective of she wants this. So, okay, that's fine, that's a want.

And he spent the whole time just smugly putting his middle fingers up, waiting for her to not be herself and to agree with him. And that's no place for any kind of relationship. And I thought that was all really, really interesting. Maybe ultimately the TVness of it, it's just too many balls in the air for a TV show. TV can't ever really do that level of nuance or like the multiplicity of perspectives and voices. I think the way books can.

Books, something that I love to cherish reading. You do. I love reading. And you definitely haven't lost your ability to put together words on a page and form a meaning out of them. We can talk about this on another podcast, but it was that I couldn't see out of my eye holes anymore. For people, obviously nobody knows what I'm talking about. I have for several months been asking Andy. I was like, oh, you know, if we have like a dead day,

where there's no show or whatever, we could always do a recommendations episode where we talk about music and books. And I say, I've been reading this. And Andy has not responded and not responded. And then finally it was like, I'm going blind and no longer read. So it was worrying me.

I was going to say, before you talk about what worries you, is when you said that, I was like, yeah, you continue to drive around Los Angeles. Well, because there's a couple things. There is enormous ego and then also, like, magical thinking in that, as it turns out, I did go to an optometrist for the first time, and they were like, you are not uniquely experiencing macular degeneration, like, and losing sight in a spectacular way. You are in your 40s, and you need reading glasses now. And I was like, how dare you this body is a temple?

Temple devoted to Pilates and potato chips. So, grudgingly, I did accept a prescription for reading glasses. By the way, my vision in distance and driving automobiles in Los Angeles, absolutely perfect still. Yeah. Just Lewis Hamilton-esque. He drives cars, right? He does, yeah.

Thank God. Okay. And so I got a prescription pair of reading glasses, And it really was like that part in The Matrix where he's just like, you've never used them before, Neo. I was like, holy shit, I haven't seen in years. And now. Earlier that you were like, what was the book you were like

at this piece of nonfiction that I wrote? Historical. Oh, no, no, it's fiction. It's a great mystery. It won the Edgar Award for Best Mystery last year. It's called Five Decembers. Hard Case Crime published it. It's by James Kestrel, which is a pseudonym.

But it's a mystery set in Hawaii and the Pacific between 1941 and 1940. 45. It's awesome. I had started it like six weeks ago. And because as it turned out, it just kind of hurt my face box to read. Like I just wasn't reading. And our old pal David Jacobi sometimes checks in and he's like, what should I be reading? And I was like, oh, I just started this book. Let's read it together. He was like, cool. And he does what he always says. He texts me a photo of the cover, having bought it 10 minutes later. Then in a normal amount of time, like 10 days later, he's like, just finished the book. Let's chat. And I was like,

page 16, yawning in front of me. Anyway, thank you to the good people of eyeglasses Incorporated. I read three and a half books on my winter vacation. And I'm back, baby. You're back. So maybe we'll do a book club sometime soon. I know, I don't think you're going to join me on the passenger. So I'm reading the new Cormac McCarthy. You sure are. This is your social persona now is just Cormac Stan. I like this. Let me tell you what happened last night. So the passenger is very good. It's about a diver, like a salvage diver, in 1980 goes, I think it's off the Gulf in Mississippi

and like a plane is crashed and he drives down to go salvage the plane and the people are still on the plane and there's supposed to be nine people on the plane but only eight people are on the plane and the black box is missing. So that's the setup.

There's also like a whole other plot with this guy's sister that I won't get into but a conspiracy You know, starts. This guy is like thrown into a conspiracy about the plane and secretive government agencies that are, you know, putting liens against his bank account and chasing them all over. And at one point, he's hired this private investigator from New Orleans to work with him. And they have a series of meals and beverages together over the course of the book.

And at one point, like for absolutely no reason. The private investigator, a.k.k.a. Corbett McCarthy just gets. gives a six-page monologue about the Kennedy assassination. And it starts, and you're just like, oh, I wonder if Cormac's got anything in the chamber about JFK. And reader, he did. Chris, this should be your big podcast identity. I have more convinced than ever, by the way, and I'm on the record, you know, you can listen to the JFK rewatchables. I'm a big fan of this, of this topic. But, man,

Cormac makes a very convincing forensic case for why it could not be Oswald. I'm now reading to a degree that I'm remembering how we used to read. So for people who don't realize this, and we should end this podcast, because I've left my children unattended in the house with a can of Pringles and a Nintendo Switch. But we, Chris and I, like, both got super into crime fiction and a lot of the books that we talk about on the pod and authors that we love around the same time and have taken many detours and we did Larry McMurtry. But I think that for me, reading has become something a little bit different than it was when we first met when we were, like, college students and English majors in the 90s, and we were like, we read

big books because we're supposed to, right? So yesterday, during a lull in the parenting before Puss and Boots, I just took Dondalillo's Underworld off the shelf, which I purchased at the college bookstore in 1997. Yeah. And, you know, put on my glasses. By the way, shout out to our lovely loyal listener at Warby Parker in Silver Lake. It's very nice. She's been very helpful to me. And it's just like, remembering that reading is also, he speaks in your voice American. Yeah. And it's just like describing the contours of the backs of the working men filing into the polo grounds in 1954. And I was like, holy shit.

Are you wiping tears away right now? No, I'm just like, I just forgot that like there used to be, it just used to be a spinal tap like 11 meter on writing. You know what I mean? And it's almost, I almost felt a little like, I got a little hot and embarrassed reading this many adjectives in a sentence in an 800-page book. But like, maybe this is our pivot, man. We're going to be like, Netflix, don't get it. Popular detective movies, pass.

Books? Cormick McCarthy, Don DeLillo, Toby Fleischman, 2023. Let's get it. That's us. We will be back in no later than, I think, 48 hours. Big weekend. So we have Copenhagen Cowboy coming out on Netflix,

which is the Nicholas winning Reffen show that I'm very excited. It's also the documentary that I made about myself in my trip there. We may get a shock Sean Fantasy appearance on this podcast

to discuss that show. What? And then Blast of Us is coming up a bunch of stuff. Maybe we'll hit kaleidoscope if you catch an episode or two and we can talk a little bit

about heisting on Thursday. But I can't wait to be getting into TV. Thank you to Kaya. Back at it again for the 2023 term. She was reelected unanimously for what it's part of. Sort of the Pelosi of this podcast, you know? 100%. Holding power from Northern California for years on end.

Bye-bye. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items. Then review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver. it in as little as 30 minutes, so you can feel confident it's what you ordered. Fresh groceries, your way, with Ralph's delivery and pickup. Get free delivery during online deal days, plus $30 off your first online order.

Ralph's, fresh for everyone.