The Watch - What's Next for the Han Solo Movie, T.J. Miller's Departure From 'Silicon Valley,' Plus 'Twin Peaks' and 'GLOW' (Ep. 162)

Episode Date: June 26, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss recent news stories about the shakeup in the Han Solo ‘Star Wars’ movie, T.J.’s Miller’s departure from ‘Silicon Valley,’ and the ‘Transformers’ box office flop, as well as the state of Michael Bay films (1:00). They also check in on ‘Twin Peaks’ and ‘GLOW’ (29:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the rigor.com and joining me in the studio. This is the water. This is the well. This is in a green world. You know, long-time listeners of this podcast are familiar with your trademark introductions.

I know. And they often guess. What's he here with you? This is the new space. They often wager guesses as to what it will be based on the week's pop culture. There was not a lot of variance this time. I want you to know that I predicted this. Yeah, you didn't even blink when I started doing that.

I knew. I loved it. I also didn't want to interrupt you. Andy Greenwald, welcome to the watch. Oh, thanks, host of the watch. All right, very formal today. Guys, if you live in Los Angeles and you don't have pressing family emergency on July 11th. Generally, pressing family emergencies develop later than two weeks out.

Your attendance is expected at Largo, where we will be doing Talk the Thrones Live with Mallory, Rubin, and Jason Concepcion. Do the Ed Norton. I feel like Ed Norton needs everyone in Los Angeles who's a Game of Thrones band to stand up and walk. I need you to clear the room. Get me up panic. Here's the thing. There will be special guests. You get to see me, Andy, Jason, and Mallory talk about Game of Thrones.

Two of the four people know what they're talking about in that group. Could be any two at any time. It's going to be a lot of fun. I really encourage you guys to come out. July 11th at Largo. You can buy tickets through Seekkeek. We will tweet out the information. We want to see your happy smiling faces.

Yeah, we want to mingle. Yeah. I also... Peak TV isn't anything without its audience. I also want people to know that I believe John Bryan is producing the show. Yeah. I forget to mention that. Decks playing all of vultures.

I want classic Largo vibes. I want Pat Nausewold doing stand-up in between... It's you me. Fiona Apple. Amy Mann. Is that weird that I have nostalgia for like early Largo dinner theater? I think it's moved. It's not even in the same place.

I don't even know. It's a bigger space. So we will not be serving dinner. No. Did you ever have dinner at the old Largo? No, I didn't. A lot of spaghetti. I didn't.

I love the halibut. Greenwald. Hey, man. We're going to talk obviously about one of the most transgressive boundary pushing, thought provoking through the back of my head because a demon homeless man has my skull crushed in his hand. Ray Donovan is back. It's on the same network as Ray Donovan. I love the

opening where they're like, if you like this head fuckery, why not watch John Voigt hand it up. Here's William Macy drinking. Castrol oil. Just out there, just drinking. Okay. Is it castor oil or castor oil? Caster oil

is a thing that it's like a thing that makes itpicac. It makes you have a reaction. We're going to leave that in. There's petrol. There's Castro. There's Fidel Castro. Yeah. I'll get you.

Okay. Did you read about what they did to the Buena Visa Social Club documentary sequel? So much stuff happened in the movie business. Yeah, that's a good segue. We're going to talk about Twin Peaks. We're going to talk about Glow. Glow! So excited.

But first we're going to just run through a little bit of these hot Hollywood tabloid headlines because I personally cannot get enough of this Han Solo story. I don't know why. Yeah. It's just so exciting. I love all the players. I love all the little side stories that are coming out of it.

I love reading between the lines. Look, last week, we talked a little bit of the Han Solo stuff. We started talking about it. And Sean Fentasy was here. My child was in the room as well, so we were a little distracted. You didn't give the people

your biggest take that you would preview for me. I did. I think you had to keep getting up. I sort of gave it. You gave him to Playway. But you are team, Kathy Kennedy. My team, I don't think these dudes were right for the job in the first place. I don't think that if you're like, Catherine, Kathleen Kennedy was like, I want to make, essentially amounted to Rio Bravo.

I want to make like a Western with Frederick Remington painting primary colors, and it's going to be cool. But like this is the same line that we heard before Rogue One where she was like, let's do Zero, like, where Garth Edwards was like, well, I'm owning Zero Dark 30, but in Star Wars. I want to make a war movie. Lord Miller are like, what if it was Star Wars but also Men in Black? What if we took this great script and didn't use it? Look, I think what they do works for what they do. Here's the latest news. It was in the dueling stories and the trades today.

Different angles. Different angles. The main takeaway appears to be that the problems were more systemic. Obviously, they were more systemic. Obviously, this didn't just happen. Among the people being thrown under the largest school bus in the galaxy are star Alden-Earon-Rike, who's accused of not being good at acting. Yes, and bringing a, quote,

Ace Ventura-esque sensibility to the character. Interesting. Understand that when, I believe, when the first Star Wars film was released, Alden Aaron Wright was... I did read that on a website called Star Wars with a Z.net. When the first Star Wars was released, a new hope, Alden Aaron Reich, I believe, was negative 15 years old. So his connection to the source material may be suspect.

Okay, but it's not like he has to go into the sept to study the scroll. This is not playing Daniel Plainview, okay? This is not that. He wears a cool jacket and he shoots lasers in space. Also, anyone who saw Hail Caesar knows this kid is good. This kid is funny and talented, so I'm not buying that. So we've got a... Here's a rap story that's basically like Aaron Rick was a bit of the problem, right?

That they were concerned, that they hired an acting coach for him in production. it is not uncommon to have an acting coach work with someone before or maybe in the early stages of production, but to bring someone on late in the game, it's like switching caddies on the ninth hole. Wow. Yeah, that's where we're at. It really goes deep with you. I never had a caddy. So that's one side of things, right?

The other side of things that was reported in The Hollywood Reporter is that Lawrence Kazan wrote this great script. They did a very good job at talking about how great. this Lawrence Kasten script was very early on. I remember there was a slash film post that was just like this is the best Star Wars script and apparently Lord and Miller according to this story were doing things

like shouting out one-liners like it was the 40 year old fucking version and being like try this one try this one and it like that is the Apatow Adam McKay style you shout alts you find the jokes as you're filming right that's why also those movies tend

to not be like in entirely coherent dramatic experiences. Let me be clear with you. The third act of train wreck featuring LeBron James, Marva Albert, and Amy Schumer becoming a good person because she gives her booze to a homeless man, worked perfectly. That's not the kind of thing you can find in the editing room. That's scripted. So the story in the reporter is that Daly, Kasson started seeing Dailies.

Wait, can I just say my favorite part of all these stories? Lawrence Kaston, just eminence Greece of Hollywood, apparently was watching Dailies on his laptop or whatever from his home in Pacific Palisades. This dude's life has really changed in the last five years. I'm not, this is, it's no shots. No, this guy is, he wrote Dreamcatcher. This guy is super talented, always has been, has been involved in the Star Wars movies from the beginning.

Raiders. The big chill. Yeah. I mean, this guy makes movies. Grand fucking Canyon. Yeah. Kevin Klein discovers what's really important in life. Steve Martin wets himself because he gets shot.

Get me? Oh, I see. Sorry, let's come back to that. Look, seriously, no shot. This guy's terrific. But it's interesting that for all of the attempts for Lucasfilm to be like, it's still called Lucasfilm, but George is gone and it's new blood and they're bringing in, you know, for a new era of Star Wars movies, they're bringing in new talent.

The person who has emerged in many ways is the most crucial member of the team is Kasden. Is Kasden. And the amount of power he seems to be exerting or that they keep begging him to take on is really something. Yeah, we talked about this on Thursday. there is a recurring theme throughout these Star Wars movies, and there was a recurring theme. And still, to some extent, it is, if you look at David and DeVorne leaving Black Panther, there is an initial interest on the side of the studio and the producers to work with, quote, unquote, edgy new talent, with a distinctive vision and distinctive voice.

And you bring them in, and then you need them to start playing ball in terms of Chris Miller. Like, I don't mind Lord Miller's style. Like, that works for them. But it's not a Lego movie. You can't fix it. Like, you're not drawing into it. So if those guys decide to throw out a line that could alter Star Wars Canon, I think one thing we're seeing here is that these movies are too interconnected.

Somebody on our Slack today was like, I think Cam was actually saying, like, I just wanted like a cool Han Solo movie with jokes and wookies. But they can't do that. It has to have some sort of tissue stretching out. I think that's absolutely part of it. But I also think that the real divide here is between the two adjectives you use, which is new and edgy. Those are not always the same thing.

That's very, very smart. Thanks, man. What I mean to say is, who comes in to fix these movies? Tony Gilroy, Ron Howard. Old hands. These guys are major talents. Yes. These are not hacks by any stretch of the imagination.

What they need are people who know how to make big budget movies or write big budget scripts. That's what I was saying. I was like, these movies probably need to find their David Yeats. For as much as I want them to be, like, Ryan Johnson exploring his looper verse. Like, I know that... But let's talk about... You mentioned Ryan Johnson. I'm glad you did because one of the other takeaway lines that was worth repeating from these trade stories was Ryan Johnson appears to have had no speed bumps whatsoever delivering the last Jedi.

And the reason is, Ryan Johnson has been writing and directing movies, gradually scaling up in his movies. He's also written the movie that he's directing. That's exactly right. But he was allowed to do it because he basically... staged up to do that. He started making a small movie like Brick. He wasn't coming off cloudy with the chance of meatballs. Nor

was he coming off the Book of Henry, Jurassic World, and, you know, the... Safety not guaranteed. I would have real concerns about episode 9 unless the book on Trevereaux now is just he will... He's competent.

Yeah. He will... He's the whole puncher. Because and again, this is completely set unseen on anything. But this is what we're talking about. It's a young filmmaker with complete control over vision. I mean, that's what, like, Shane Carruth, right? Like, that's like, you're not going to hire him to do Star Wars, though, because he's not going to do it the way you want him to do it.

These people are trying to have it both ways. And I think that's where you fall. That's where this stuff falls apart. I think it was, it's just been fascinating to read all these stories about the production because you can see which ones are coming sort of from the Lord Miller side of things. There's a piece in the Hollywood Reporter story about, when the crew was told that Ron Howard would be taking over, they broke out into applause.

That's a shitty leak. That's a weird thing. So it's been a rough week for that franchise. And one of the things that, you know, I think that this is probably, I would say, across, like, consensus most popular Star Wars character. Yeah. So it'll be fascinating to see whether they are able to get this right. And what's not just the most popular Star Wars character,

I would argue the most crucial Star Wars character, Because the biggest problem with the prequels wasn't that the Jedi were intergalactic tax collectors. They were not funny. Is that there was no Han Solo. You need someone being like, for real? This is stupid. This is stupid. You need that.

And, you know, that's the key to almost any adventure storytelling is you need the sarcastic voice of the audience being like, really? Are you sure you're going to do that now? There's also, before we move on, there's like this incredible thread that goes through almost all of the stories. And I really, really like Gareth Edwards, his movies a lot. and I thought Rogue One was really cool in a lot of ways. But every one of these stories is like, there's like, sources say Garth Edwards is a demote, coulette, Kathleen Kennedy, suplexes movie in front of him while Tony Gilroy sang Real American.

It said, thank you. Thank you for doing that. May I have some more, sir? That's what's so weird. Where they're like, you know, like Lord Miller just didn't get it. Everything that is released, whether it's released officially in a press release or leaked semi-officially to the Hollywood Reporter or variety is dipped in a sealant coat of bullshit.

Yeah. I mean, that's true. So this thing that when they released joint statements and the thing in this piece about how Ron Howard felt concerned about taking over the franchise but has been trading emails with Lord and Miller and they've been lovely. I mean, whatever.

Ron Howard, by all accounts, really is that guy. Really is a nice guy. I'm sure he did have concerns. Right. You know, I'm sure those concerns. So many great parallels between the actual story of Star Wars of Rebellions and Empire and like these edgy, like these voices who are trying to like make themselves heard versus like the Disney studio system that is like, look, this is a billion dollar industry. We are billions. I just think that you are, if you want to play in the sandbox, you are likely going to get flattened.

And you're going to look up a few months later and say, what the hell happened? What did I, what did I just do? What did I just take part in? You know, to me, the saddest part of that story. And I'm not saying the saddest part of the story because Lord and Miller are the next Cohen brothers was that, well, they could always fall back into directing the Flash because that's open for them. Right. It's like, wow. They'll be fine.

Those guys have like 900 shows on it. Andy, you know, this is a really good week for Hollywood trees. You love being in the biz. A couple weeks ago, you kind of threw out a little bit of a greenwalled bat signal. What is your bat signal? Do you know? You mean, what does it look like? Yeah, like what's your icon, your, like your sort of symbol?

Wow. I feel like that's best left. I mean, what would you think it is? I would imagine that it's very faint because I don't send it out very often and very few people see it. The Hollywood Reporter last night, after with the season finale of Silicon Valley,

put up an interview with T.J. Miller. Now, a couple weeks ago, you had asked basically for this. You were like, if anybody knows the real deal behind T.J. Miller leaving this show, holler. And you didn't need to do that because T.J. Miller is like, I'm happy to share.

By the way, tip line, inbox zero on that. So thanks a lot, sources. This is one of the great Q&As I've seen in a long time. Can we begin at the end where it says the above interview has been edited and condensed for clarity? Can't believe that. Good luck with that, T.HR. Here are some of my favorites. So basically, T.J. Miller was like, if you subscribe to his version of reality,

he was asked to take a lesser role on the show to cycle down to like... It was offered... ...offered a lesser role because he was so busy. And they were like, hey, man, you're amazing. Why don't you work less? Or they were like, you seem real busy. Yeah, right.

And he was like, cool, I'm off. I'm off the show now. Forever. Yeah, and we'll never come back. He seemed to have quite a... There's a disconnect between what he wanted and what Alec Berg, who I think, ran the show for a few years, but remains...

Is the runner. and Clay Tarver, who was in the band Chavez, who I love, who was also working on the show, and Mike Judge, who's sort of in charge of the show. And T.J. Miller claims that Mike Judge and Clay Tarver were like, please stay, and that Alec Berg, he just doesn't like Alicberg. He straight up just says, I don't like Alec. There are so many great quotes in this.

I wanted to read you a few. Yeah. When asked about, like, sort of, you know, what are you going to do with the people who loved you on this show? And he's just like, although that makes for a terrible time at the airport, because everybody high-fives me grabbing your ass on the way to your fucking plane to Omaha, Nebraska to do stand-up comedy.

These people want to know, quote, do you really want to walk away from what many would say is the cushiest situation in television? The platinum age of television, which I don't know if his shot at Golden Age being over, or he just thinks that that's what we called the Golden Age? I think he's just squeezed another mind grape.

I also really, really liked, I'm doing a lot as a public servant and jester to the American public. As Christian Stewart always says, it's worldwide, it's worldwide. FYI, guys, I googled, quote, Kristen Stewart, close quote, quote, it's worldwide, close quote.

First result, this fucking interview. That's the only time that has ever come up. First of all, false. She's just never said it in public. She says this on their group slack of talented, misunderstood, misunderstood geniuses. Anyway, when you get a chance, to read this. It's Hollywood Reporter. We can tweet it out.

It's just an incredible interview. It's very rare. A moment ago I said things are dipped in bullshit. This is clearly not, except it's just soaked within its own subjective bullshit. One takeaway is that Zach Woods, apparently sweetest guy in the world, great improviser. Kumael comes off great. Pretty much everyone comes off great. He puts middle ditch in the

middle of a ditch, though. Yeah. He buries him in that ditch. There are a lot of comments about how well... Imagine to be completely candid. Imagine isn't being, having to deal with this every day, though. Well, I think most, I mean, let's also be honest, most TV shows, certainly sitcoms with comedians or big egos in the cast, this is what it is going to work. These people are not friends.

Very rarely they're friends. Sometimes they are. But generally, you have competing egos, and the job and the very difficult job of people, the people like Alec Berg and Clay Tarver and Mike Judge have a very well-paying job is to manage those egos and deal with it. So for T.J. Miller to come out and say, I've never wanted to be a star, unlike Thomas Midditch, who wants to be the star of the show, and now we can finally be the star of the show. I mean, it makes for great copy. The truth is, none of this really matters.

I think Silicon Valley is probably better with him on it because he's very funny. It's a weird choice, but he seems dedicated to making weird choices. And the only thing that really had me scratching my head in this interview is when he's just like, finally, I'm free to hang glide into Paris for the premiere of the emoji movie, which is going to be the next funny thing. He seems to be very appreciative of his role in destroying American intellectual culture. So good for him. I did not get a chance to see this episode of Silicon Valley,

so we can report back a later date about that. Last thing before we get to TV? Yeah, sure. How do you feel about the smoking wreckage of the Transformers franchise? Oh, yeah. Sheesh. You know, I haven't seen this one yet. Wow.

You're missing a lot, apparently. Well, apparently I am. Apparently it has already achieved a certain cult status among people who are just like Anthony Hopkins is great in this and it's like completely nonsensical. Stanley Tucci plays Merlin. So I'm in, but I just haven't had a chance to go yet. And now it's like this is this is going to be, I would like to have Sean come back on to talk about this, the box office whisperer, because it does seem like this is a movie made exclusively for foreign markets now. Yeah, and Sean had a good piece about that. Yeah.

About how there aren't that kind. They're not going to make good bad movies anymore because movies just have to sort of exist, which is so demeaning. Have you seen any Transformers movies? To people in the other parts of the world that I guess are still paying for these tickets. I've seen very, very noisy bits over time. Did you ever see the Shaila Booth video where he's like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. It's like every time he says go in these movies.

It's a good video. I was... It's cool YouTube clip. I was communicating with a director that we're friendly with... Source is safe. I know. who we respect as a director who basically blames the wreckage of modern cinema

at the adrenalineized feet of Michael Bay basically he's responsible for most of the evil in the multiplex Hard disagree. Particularly, well he also predicted that you would say that. That's true. I wanted to just get your thoughts on that because I think that there is a proud, proud

ignorance and incoherence in his movies that has only escalated. I can't tell if you're being, if that's a compliment or not. Well, this is the argument of Michael Bay. That I do think, I think you can say, has infected blockbuster filmmaking

because one of the things we always say about these franchises is that at a certain point they just devolve into nonsense punching. Uh-huh. I don't think that actually happens that much in non-transformers Michael Bay movies. Oh, like his quiet films?

No, but I don't think that... Michael Bay's summer hours, one for them, one for us. The Rock and Armageddon don't have a lot of... of like, and now two robots will fight on the sun. No, Armageddon was just about a man literally fucking an asteroid to death by planting a nuclear bomb inside of it. No, it was about fathers and sons and daughters. What's the difference?

It was about animal crackers. I thought that was worthwhile. I mean, my feeling about Michael Bay is that when bad boys came out when we were in high school, our seniors in high school. I guess, yeah. That was a very important film for me. Yeah. I thought it was dazzling and fun.

I loved it. The way you're saying it's like, I saw it at Film Forum. Yeah, I saw it at the Quad Cinema. After an early afternoon, yee, ye. But here's the thing. I just feel, here's my thought about Michael Bay, and then you can defend him if you want. Okay.

I just feel like, from what I gather, Crystal Meth is fun for people the first time. That's my feeling about Michael Bay. You know what I mean? It just feels like it's just kind of a cheap, ugly high that works the first time and doesn't age well. That's my feeling about it. And it makes me glad that people see. seem to have moved past it because he just seems pretty despicable all around and I cheer his failure.

I really enjoy his movies. I think he's one of the great visual stylists, like in terms of being able to create... In terms of American flags rustling in the wind. I am not a really moral movie viewer. You know that. I wasn't saying that in a political sense, although that's a whole other conversation. I'm not, I don't really ascribe a lot of... I understand what you're saying.

You're not moral on the links either from what you're saying. I gather. No, I'm a savage. Gosh, you know, I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to, he's spent so much of this decade on these Transformers movies. He's made five of them. Yeah, I know. And the one before that was the island, which was not that good.

But I really, you know, I think pain and gain is a different kind of movie. I don't know. I think that it would take a long time to sort of explain it. But like in terms of directing set pieces, is in terms of communicating visceral energy through camera work, through cutting. He's incredibly groundbreaking. And in a lot of ways, like a lot of his moves

have been stolen by other people like Zach Snyder and the way in which you can almost make, like... I'm not saying that in a good or bad way. I'm saying the value neutral. Like, I just think that... You're right. His style has permeated blockbuster filmmaking

in a way that it's hard to recognize the value in the original. Right. But I think that he is an incredible visual stylist. I mean, you know, and I just think that he chooses to make shitty material. But I think when he's working with stuff

that's like right at the right level of like not too self-serious, has a bunch of good actors having a good time, and allows him to do insane shit, like have F-16s fly over Nicholas Cage as he stabs himself with an anti-poison vaccine. Like, that's dope. I enjoyed that movie at the time.

The Rock is awesome. The Rock is a really good movie. My experience watching The Rock, which I feel like I've talked about, on this podcast before at the Marple 10 movie theater outside of Philly, matinee, with some women who really felt invested in the film to the degree of speaking out loud, like really speaking back to the film. And their commentary during the Sean Connery haircut scene lives with me to this day.

They really had an opinion about the, and I must say, not disclosed in the script, but about the sexuality of the person doing the hair cutting of Sean Connery. Oh, interesting. They had a lot of thoughts about his proclivities, his background, his interests, and they shared them very loudly. Okay. So I remember that. So that's my thought about Michael Bay films. Wait, last thing.

Oh, gosh. About this. Remember when we were talking with Sean last week and we talked about the experience of watching Jack S2 or Borat and feeling like it was something so hysterically new? I wonder what is, I was going to ask you, and I think I have an answer about what is next. for action filmmaking because the Michael Bay thing is, you're right, has filtered in, it's now part of the culture and it's been done. Yeah, I think that the language that he introduced actually became the language of superhero with it.

The shaky cam of Paul Greengrass has become kind of overdone and it's just sort of been factored into other people's filmmaking. Is the next one, and I wish it were so, is it Edgar Wright? We'll see Baby Driver. I don't think anyone else can do that. But it just in terms of seeing a kinetic camera movement and action and, you know, seeing something new in that genre is what is next? I think it was the newest thing was Gareth Evans who directed the two Raid movies. Oh, yeah, okay.

And that's like just the most extreme version of it. I don't know how those movies are legal to be made. I don't know how anyone survived making them. Yeah. You know, it's just like watching, I don't know. Those movies are the most extreme action movies I can remember seeing. What's next for the genre? I think that there will automatically be like, you know, I think that in some ways I don't necessarily call Logan a action movie,

but the way in which Logan dealt with action set pieces and the drama and the action and the drama within the action as like almost a Western with these sort of very still vistas and kind of was for the most part a very clearly told movie. I do think that there might be a desire or yearning for clarity, which is not Michael Bay's forte in the Transformers movies. So we'll see. I think that could be it. Okay, finally, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. We're going to come back and talk about Twin Peaks and Glob. Hey, guys.

Today's episode of The Watch is also brought to you by Spotify. Did you know that the Watch is available on Spotify? I can't believe it. I got Mad Playlists for you, but now I got Mad Podcast for you. Andy and I have always been talking about Spotify where we got our playlist for your barbecues for the Meet Me in the Bathroom Book, whatever. It's just really cool to finally be on the service.

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Get in on these killer last minute deals and download the Hotel Tonight app now. All right, Andy, we are back. Last night, I think, was, you know, it's hard because now that everything is so kind of fractured. Like, I don't think that there is, like, we don't have, like, the monocultural conversation that I feel like we did. Not for a couple more weeks. Yeah, right. That we had, say, four or five years ago. or when Thrones is on or whatever.

But to the extent that there is one, and to the extent that people have hung with this show through a couple of weeks of real, like, idiosyncratic television, we were somewhat, if you want to call it a reward, we were rewarded last night with really one of the most breathtaking things I can ever remember being broadcast on my television. Twin Peaks. You're talking about Twin Peaks.

I am so excited to talk about this. I did want to start by saying something. something bigger because we're going to talk about Glow also, which is the new show on Netflix that premiered on Friday. And the combination, I watched episodes three and four of Glow last night, and I watched episode, I think it's eight of Twin Peaks. And I went to bed so happy, so like high on the possibilities of TV as a medium. Because one of the things that I've been sensing in the last year or so, and I say this as a consumer and fan and also attempting to work behind the scenes as well, there does seem to be a real collision course between doing the

traditional things that TV has always done well and doing them well or finding kind of a new way to sing the same songs, right? And breaking ground and being groundbreaking. And, you know, my favorite show of this year still is probably the young pope, which couldn't give a shit about TV, basically, or the conventions of it. So I may be a hypocrite by saying this. But I found the combination of these shows so thrilling in two completely contradictory directions that it made me feel very excited about the health of it.

Because Glow, and we'll talk about the second, is instantly and brilliantly such a celebration of everything that we love TV for, but updated to a framework and a context that feels contemporary, even though it is itself a period piece. By episode three, you're like, hey, my pals are back. I can't wait to see what my pals do. I mean, that's always TV. That's cheers. That's mash. But yet we're watching something that is strikingly feminist, strikingly intelligent in terms of its emotional delivery and content,

and, you know, binging on Netflix and about wrestling in the 80s. And then in Twin Peaks, we have this hour that is more out there than most cinema. and works brilliantly on a number of levels because you tell me how you want to talk about this because we can talk about it just as a pure, as pure art because I think it functions that way, as pure cinematic art. But it's also an origin story for an old character.

Yeah, that's what I was going to talk about. We can talk about how the reason Twin Peaks and David Lynch gets away with this, as if he's a bank robber, I don't even like that terminology, is everything that he does on Twin Peaks. And honestly, I would argue in his movies, but maybe he lost you with the rabbits in Inland Empire or whatever. But certainly within the season of Twin Peaks operates on two levels. The one level is, what the fuck?

What am I seeing? What is he doing to me? Why? And the other level is, oh, well, there's an evil spirit. Yeah, Noel Marie had a piece in The Times. There's been some really great writing. Noel did a great piece. Sean Collins wrote a great piece for Rolling Stone,

Allison wrote a great piece for the ringer about this episode. But one thing that Noel got out was this idea that he was like, I know that I might just be in the Twin Peaks Canyon right now. And like I'm just so immersed in this. But that episode didn't seem that opaque to me. That's the brilliant. So I think that there's a degree, there's a difference between demanding and challenging and nonsensical. And we basically experienced an atomic unearthing of an elemental evil. and a birth of a counterbalancing good, hopefully,

or from the sake of the people on the show, I guess, if that's my read of it is vaguely correct, told while Thrennydy for the victims of Hiroshima is playing and were traveling through the heart of an atomic explosion. Side note, that music that was playing, that's essentially what my father would be listening to when I would, when I would like, remember a couple times you'd drop me off after we'd be hanging out in Philly or whatever,

He would be awake at like 12.30.m., that's what would be playing in my home. That is my... So that is like, okay, it felt very familiar to me. That's why you like pop music. It was like, yeah, it was basically like that was my rosebud. You know, we've spent a lot of time over this last year or so, especially talking about Westworld, talking about leftovers, how are, you know, what is happening in this show? What is, and evaluating how showrunners choose to tip hands, leave clues, stick landings for lack. I hate that phrase now, but, you know, tie up loose ends.

And, you know, I was watching the explosion scene last night, and I was thinking back to the week before of David Lynch whistling in front of the atomic explosion. and it just becomes kind of clear to me that the Blue Rose cases are based around the blue rose cases being Gordon Cole, the whatever he is deputy head of the FBI's symbol for cases that are otherworldly spiritual that relate to the black lives. Right.

And I don't know, I just, it gave me an overwhelming sense of calm because I was just like, it's just so gratifying to know that someone is so good at making something. Does that make any sense? Here's the thing you have to remember about David Lynch. He's not kidding.

Yeah. He loves 1950s things. He loves good and evil. He made a movie about a man writing a tractor. There was not a subtext to that, right? And so people think he's mocking or meta or undercutting the 1950s veneer. This is just like clearing out all the stuff that he's been kind of thinking about. He believes in good and evil.

Yeah. In a very primal kind of way and always has. Dale Cooper is the ultimate Boy Scout, you know, and Bob is this embodiment of evil. That's always been the show. And Noel Murray mentions this in his piece in a way, and I think it's worth saying again. You can watch this show and say an evil spirit was born from the nuclear test and then inhabited a good guy and then the good guy to fight his way back to win. But what a boring way to look at it. We've seen that story.

We've never seen it told this way. But you can do that. That is the guardrail as he descends down into Dante's Inferno here with a storytelling. So there's a couple things worth talking about. One is I do want to give this show and give David Lynch and Mark Frost an enormous amount of credit for a very old-fashioned TV thing, which is you got to make do. Right? Like the thing about TV that has always interested me is that it's imperfect. You can't get it right or you can't have everything work out, so you've got to adjust.

This season, this improbable return season, has been marred by so much, by so many things outside of their control. The force of evil, killer Bob, was played by a set decorator named Frank Silva who died in the 90s. He is not available to be in this show. So they've had to reconsider how they will portray him. They've used his face, right? They've, the same thing, they didn't, the Michael J. Anderson, who played the little man, either didn't want to come back or wasn't available, so they created that weird talking tree. Michael Onkeen didn't want to come back.

So Robert Forster is there playing his brother. And he has these long phone conversations with the character who's not there. They're making due. At the same time, there's this deep well of humanity because some other people, a weird number of actors actually, passed away since they filmed their parts. Catherine Colson, who played The Log Lady, Warren Frost, who played Dr. Hayward, and Miguel Ferrer,

who plays Albert, and is probably still going to be in it more. There are so many things that are just like, let's get this done and figure out the best way to do it, that I find very heartwarming. It seems very old-fashioned to me. Then, let's look at the nuts and bolts of what we saw last night. Yeah, sure. Then we should get into the art of it.

For people who watched, and I recommend you do, it's available on Showtime, the prequel movie. We met David Bowie's character, Philip Jeffries. I really want to ask you about this. So I love Firewalk with me, but I wanted to ask you as somebody who read the book that is sort of the connective tissue. I've read all the books. And can you tell me, so talk to me like, I'm a baby here. Explain Philip because Philip is also somebody that Ray calls in the car.

And apparently evil Cooper had been in touch with Philip. Okay. So what we learned in the movie was that Philip Jeffries, played by David Bowie, was an FBI agent under Gordon Cole's control. They'd like come up together, right? And apparently, I think he was a little older, but he had been investigating similar cases and he had gone missing. He appears basically unstuck in time in Philadelphia to tell a story. And the story he basically tells him is that he says he found them. And when he's talking about them, he's talking about these evil spirits.

he's talking about Bob and Mike. And he says they lived above a convenience store. In last night's episode, we saw a convenience store, a haunted, disturbing convenience store that was apparently in the blast zone of this nuclear thing. And that there they collect people's pain and sorrow. And he then vanished and blinked out of existence. So he's been referred to, he's been around.

He's come up a couple of times in this series. Which is amazing because once again, he's passed away. So he won't be in it. but he is haunting it. David Lynch is not contemptuous of the canon that he did create. You know, this is all part of it. So what we're seeing here is this larger mythology. In the cut flashbacks to the convenience store in the movie,

there are people, including character director, Juergen Proknow, who I didn't even remember was in it, as weird bearded figures sitting behind Bob, and I believe Mike was in that scene. And in the credits of the film, they're listed as the woodsmen. We now learn as of last night that the truly disturbing, and let me say, I have not been this kind of scared and unsettled since I was 15 years old watching the original series,

as I was when one of these woodsmen walked up behind the Air Force woman in the South Dakota morgue last week. That sort of slow approach that reminded me of like the shining, you know, the bear suit and the shining where it's just, that's just something scary and you have to look at it. These woodsmen seem to be their role. has been increased, I think probably because Frank Silva is not alive, but they seem to be harbingers of this evil or

associates of this evil, and they come to where it exists. And so they brought this evil Cooper back to life. They brought, they restored him. They were birthed from this atomic explosion. They live in the convenience store. So that's basically the source of all evil. Right. And I think that

Noel Murray lays this out pretty well in this piece that what we saw was the giant who has always been a sort of alarm bell for good. He warned Cooper when it was happening again when Bob killed cousin Madeline in the first season. Sorry, it was in the second season, but in the first series.

He's just having a nice jazzy night with his friend in a black and white universe. An alarm bell goes off and he goes to his man cave, his screening room, sees that this bomb has gone off, sees that something that looks like Bob has been created, goes into some sort of otherworldly trance, births golden bobbles out of his head. One of them appears to get.

contain Laura Palmer's image, who is then kissed by the lady and sent into the world. Right. So you could make the supposition, which he does, that Laura is somehow a force of good that could defeat Bob. And let me just say, it is not outside of the realm of possibility, although it is not the point of this show, that what David Lynch is doing with this 25-year-long game is undoing the damage done by the broken dead girl theory, you know, this, that the most interesting, sexy woman is dead in the first frame of a show.

and saying that in fact, Laura Palmer is the hero of the story. Right. The first thing we saw this season was Cooper in the Lodge being told to find Laura again. So somehow this spirit might come back and she might be restored to primacy in her own story. All this is possible, but also none of that matters because look at what we saw. And also, let's just talk briefly about what he's doing. I don't know how much television David Lynch watched. I think very little.

Although I wouldn't be surprised to find out he really likes how I met your mother. You know what I mean? I am obsessed with his obsession with the 1950s as this era that both reflected the platonic ideal of American existence and the absolute near of it. Like, you know, like the idea that we could create a world-destroying weapon and that there could be all this darkness underneath this veneer of cool diners and my prayer playing over radios after unchaste first dates and mechanics. and, you know, like this vision of America where everything kind of just like was this beautiful gleaming machine and underneath is this disgusting rot, you know? I love that that has become more and more clear. And it's fascinating to me that he's still able to deal with like contemporary South Dakota or, you know, the vagaries of like the FBI. But that's still obviously the lens through which he views even the modern world.

So he, I don't know whether he watches television or not, but he has this motif that he's working in. But he also just decides to put a nine-inch nails performance in the middle of the episode. Yeah, I was going to say, if anyone came out of this episode thinking that there was a long, long, sonically adventurous shot that would take people, long-time fans out of the show and say, I don't know if this is for me anymore. Let me tell you something. It wasn't the bomb. It was the nine-inch nails performance for me. It's completely narratively unattached to anything that's happening. These performances are almost interludes.

But this is an interlude before an incredible. It was weird. It was like watching the OC before watching a Stan Brackage movie. It was like, oh, okay, and now like the Peach Pit. And wait, now we're going to go inside of a nuclear explosion. So that was overwhelming. I don't know what lessons people can take from this show because I don't want other people to make,

here's a six-minute mini-crime drama, now here's a music performance, now here's an adventure into the solar system. You can't do this, but you are allowed to. I feel like those are the two instructions you can walk away with from this. And the reason why I started our conversation by talking about the conventional things that might be here is to say that this is part of TV. This is part of everyone's responsibility as fans and investors in this medium or creators in this medium.

You have to pay attention to this. Because look what you can do. Look what he's doing. It's just so exhilarating and deeply disturbing. I mean, the moment when Evil Cooper is shot and these woodsmen appear, like they swarm and there's a silent scream. I mean, this is really, really unsettling to watch for me. And similarly, that, you know, the main dude saying, you know, got a light grabbing the microphone, crushing people's skulls until the black and white blood runs. This weird frog bug birthed in the sand climbing into the sweet girl's mouth.

I mean, what? I think that the first iteration of this show, the first season, especially, existed in this weird bubble where it was of this world but not of this world. This series, this season feels almost disturbingly of this world. You know, the fact, I think it's setting the South Dakota stuff especially, but even the idea that it's somewhat connected to the real happenings of this world. that we as human beings did something so anti-human as to create something that could wipe us out, and that that's where evil has come from in some ways. Yeah, we're responsible for it. We're responsible for it.

It feels more deeply connected to... Think about that first episode, the desire to sit there and watch a box for something to happen, what will happen to you if you watch it. There's a... It's not a cynicism at all, but there is a warning in it that I think is very clear. But I also just think it's worth saying one more time. Like even in the first Twin Peaks, all the stuff about Doug Pus and Project Blue Book and UFOs, I mean, don't reduce this. And I say this, knowing the irony of saying this as we're doing a podcast about it.

But the most boring version of this show has always been, whether UFOs and evil spirits, you know, any Easter eggy show can be reduced. the great ones transcend. You mentioned Westworld. It's unfair to compare them, but my complaint about Westworld was always that it wasn't more than the sum of its Easter eggs. This is truly something,

and don't overthink it. Like, the Dougie stuff, there's a good man trapped. You know, like that's all that is. And yes, it's funny. It's supposed to be funny. Yeah. If you think it's going on too long

or it's making you uncomfortable, okay, that's what art can do to you too, especially when you're seeing a master make something. Right. It's really exciting. And it's off this week, which I didn't know. It's taking off the holiday weekend. Which maybe we all need a break.

Yeah, sure. So that just means there's even more weeks to come. There's 11 more weeks. Fascinating is when it does return is to, I think each of these episodes, with the exception of the Dougie plot line, which has been pretty consistent. There's been a lot of stopping and starting with narrative threads. There's been a lot of stopping and starting with tones. So it'll be very interesting to see how much we continue. Like, we end with a bug crawling into a little girl's throat.

So where do we go from there? Do we continue with this origin story, backstory? Do we jump back to South Dakota? Do we jump to Twin Peaks? Like, what happens next? I'm really excited to find out. We spent a lot of time talking about Twin Peaks. We can go into much more depth about Glow at some point down the line.

But I did want to talk a little bit about this because for as sort of mind-breaking and boundary-pushing as Twin Peaks is, Glow does everything that, like, good TV should do. Like, it plays inside of a certain set of rules. there is a very obvious development of a really good ensemble. But there's something about this show that is so, like you've touched on, just goddamn lovable. It is so charming. It does the little thing so well. The pilot is so well written and constructed.

The opening scene where Allison Bree is giving a monologue and they're like, you did the man's part, is so brilliant and so low-key brilliant. The casting, the direction, the look of it. It's not two 80s. The people that they got, the way they put it together. I'm really, I don't want to, it's weird to talk about it after Twin Peaks. I'm nearly as in awe of this show as I am the other in the way that it was done. Sidebar here about this, I watched the first two episodes, was delighted and charmed.

My wife was away for a work trip. She came back. I said, do you mind? I want to watch the next two. So she sat with me. The first one she watches episode three, and I won't give much away. But episode three pushes things a little bit more extreme. There's a robot butler.

There's a little bit, there's a party. It's a little more 80s in some way. ways. It's the kind of episode where I bet people will look back on, although it works in a lot of ways. When the show is in season four or five, they'll be like, that was a weird one. We were trying stuff out. She watched that.

We went right into episode four. Episode four ends. And her only comment was, this is a really, really good TV show. And it's not complicated. It's not that complicated. Here's one thing I love about this show is that it's basically about TV shows. In so much as they've taken, it's not a sitcom, but they did a very smart thing where they have this arena, literally an arena where there's a wrestling ring, and they have all these women who are actresses, who are thinking about the part that they are as a human being as like a person, as a working actress, but they're all also playing these different roles.

And they're all also peeling back layers of the onion to find out who they actually are. And like there's this Mark Marin character who is sort of the empressario over this, who is also acting as like an acting coach and as a provocateur of their emotions. and then there are real relationships that are happening between Alice and Bree and Betty Gilpin and all these other characters who are kind of like it's just this really fascinating almost meta

conversation about it. It's very economical for the most part. Guys, it's 30 minutes each episode, thank God. And it all takes place for the most part in one place, you know? Let me say the other thing what they've done here. You know, when you pitch TV shows these days, like you need your hook, you need your gimmick, you need your poster, you need your in, you know,

and often it's a pre-existing piece of IP, and yes, They used, there actually was a glow. I remember seeing it a couple times on cable. But this to me seems more like they wrote the show and then someone said, well, we could probably get the rights to it. And they said, great, we'll just put it on top to keep it buttoned up and nice. I do not understand pro wrestling. I have never understood it.

I've never liked it. I never got the appeal. I never watched it for a second more than I had to. What is astounding to me about the show is that within one or two episodes, I understood something that I'd never understood before. What this show did with its female characters and the positions they put them in and the way life has put them in circumstance, and they're not victims, but just living in the world, the enormous physical and emotional empowerment of what wrestling could be for them is communicated to the audience. And all of a sudden, I'm in, I get it, I got, I understood what was appealing about this world for these characters. The other thing about it is in the, you know, an ensemble, there is such a deeper,

respect for the humanity of these people. There are no bad guys. That seems like writing Lesson 101, but that's just not the shortcut that most people take when they write something. And we have to give a lot of credit to Liz Fulhive and Carly Mensch, who are playwrights who worked on Orange and the New Black, and you can see some of that DNA here in this. The third thing, the performances are killer.

Yeah, then. Let me say something. Can I do a quick sidebar about Marin? Sure. Marin is great on this show. Yeah. Let me say quick sidebar about Marin. I'm a huge Marin fan.

I listen to his podcast regularly. His voice and his point of view is in my ears frequently. I'm sure I'm not the only person. I'm sure many of our listeners do that as well. My only interaction with him was when I gave a middling review of his IFC show, Marin, on Granland. And he tweeted something. He said I thought I was thinky or something. He thought it was a thinky review.

I'm like, well, fair. But what I said in that piece was something I still believe, which is that you don't have to be good at everything. It's very rare to be really good, exceptionally good at one thing. And I talked about how I often fast forward through his 12-minute monologues in the podcast because the humanity

and empathy that he shows in his interviews is so incredible. And that's enough. You don't also need to be a sitcom star. You know, it doesn't also have to be a TV show. If people give you the opportunity, you want to try it, you get paid, whatever. But he's really good at one thing,

and I didn't think he was as good as the other thing. So I still believe that, but turns out he can be a really good actor. Yeah. He found something here. Obviously, the part appeals to him. But there is something actually about Allison Bree's performance, too, that reminds me of 70 cinema. Maybe that has more to do with the way they're shooting it and directing it.

But they're just lived in kind of. Very much so. And they're just feeling it. And they're very, very, very well-cast. They're very, very well-cast. And Allison Breeze opening scene in the pilot where she's auditioning for like a Dallas-Nauts Landing type show. And she starts talking about how, you know, it's really hard because they're, you know, do these. Parts like this aren't really written for women,

and they're like, yeah, you're reading the man's part, you know. And obviously, without reading too much into it, that is still the case. You know, I mean, and shows like this go a long way towards changing stuff like that. But in those scenes where they're all interacting with each other, these actresses who are playing wrestlers or wrestlers who are also acting, and they're all talking about

what they have to do to just kind of make it in Los Angeles. It's just a great show, man. I really like it. Think about the backflips for that character, the Ruth, their lead character. I mean, she's, the character is an actory actor who talks about mask work and clowning. Yes. I know these people.

Yeah. Right. She sleeps with her best friend's husband. She is not a hero, you know. She is, and yet, through performance and through careful, empathetic writing, she is a completely realized human that you can feel for. Also, Betty Gilpin is a star. And, you know, that's one of those things we're like, give her the part. Give her the right part.

Okay. She's grand on American gods. She's awesome on this. He says on her interview with Marin that she was not good in American Gods. She has a very funny anecdote about being on the set of American Gods. And everyone was like looking at the horizon going, and she was going, whoopsie doodle, like, what's that? Look, this show is going to run five or seven years, and that might not be a good thing. But it's got all the parts and pieces.

It's thrilling when you get to see it happen. Where to go to television. Good job, TV. You did it this week. Good job by you, TV. If you made it this far, please come see me. Andy, Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin on July 11th at Largo for Talk the Thrones live. No, don't come see us. Let us see you.

Yeah, exactly. You can find out information about how to buy tickets through our Twitter accounts, through the watch Twitter account, through the ringer.com. It's on seek geek. Just look up Largo Game of Thrones. And we'll be back on Thursday. With a special guest. We'll have a interview for next Monday on the July 4th weekend. Obviously, we won't be doing a of the moment show. we'll have a cool interview and a music, a music pop where we just chat about some bands that we've been listening to. Yeah, we're going to do another barbecue playlist. Another barbecue playlist for all you Baranski's out there. You guys are the best. You're not as good as David Lynch.

Or television, but you're still pretty good. Peace. Pretty good job. Bransky. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Spotify. Did you know that you can listen to The Watch and others from the Ringer Fam on Spotify? Yes. The streaming service that you know and love for music is also fully loaded with podcasts.

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