The Watch - ‘White Lotus’ Season 2 and the Accidental Series Phenomenon

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about some casting news for the second season of ‘Severance’ (1:00) and Andy’s trip to New York (14:59). Then they talk about the second season premiere of ‘White Lotus’ and how similar they think it will be to the first season (22:15). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, the lula of podcasting. He's back. It's Andy Greenwald!

We had some time in the wilderness. But now we're back. Andy Greenwald back on the West Coast where he belongs, soaking up the sun, considering doing half marathons, talking about how much he loves the consistent weather of Los Angeles. It's so good to see your face. I have to tell you something off the top, Andy. Is it about Brazilian politics?

Because I'm only marginally prepared. No, we do not have to break down Bolsonaro's defeat. But I wanted to tell you that, so on Saturday night, I went to sleep with an AirPod in my left ear. And I slept on my right ear. So I slept on my right side. Okay. When I woke up and I, this is still the case, I can't really hear very well out of my right ear, but I can also hear like what people are doing down the street.

I'm like Spider-Man now. So just if I seem a little off, like auditory-wise, like that's why. Is this your origin story? I may be. Is this like, wait. But I haven't discovered my superpower yet. I don't know what it is. We're going to talk about White Lotus season two,

the season premiere, but that is clearly of secondary importance now. So I thought when you said that you couldn't hear in one ear, but you could hear something unique in the other year, I thought you just could hear the latest episode of Red Scare. Yeah. You might just like constantly on repeat. Dasha only, yeah.

What was? Now, long-time listeners of the pod know that I love to refer to the time we shared a hotel room at Comic-Con 2015 and 14. And I saw your Nosferatu like sleep ritual, which at that time involved. I've changed up a lot. I've changed up on my sleeping a lot. Well, AirPods weren't a thing then. So you put in your like your buds, I believe they were called and they were wired. And then cross your arms across your chest like one of the leads in what we do in the shadows. and drift it off.

So you still require an audio element to fall asleep. But you do a one-year thing? I like to, I mean, so what I do is sometimes I will put on golf YouTube and just put one AirPod in and then just fall asleep that way. Did the AirPod, was it still there when you woke up or did it go inside of your head? It's a whole thing where I'll wind up being like, what is that thing digging into my spine at 5 in the morning and it's just an AirPod down there? somehow.

Chris, are you okay? This doesn't seem sustainable. You think that of all the weird things that go on between the two of us, this is the unsustainable part? I think that there are a lot of like... No, I mean, for you, if you can't hear out of one ear, that's unsustainable. I don't know. I don't know what to say.

I mean, I can hear, but the left ear is just way more open. And I feel like the frequencies that I'm hearing are really off. Like, I can just hear... Wow. I was able to hear somebody having a conversation about like a donkey or something down the street the other day. Or I'm hearing voices in my... my head, one or the other. Okay, well, that's happy Halloween, by the way. That's good for that.

I do want to say another thing for our listeners, I just need to publicly express some gratitude here because, as you mentioned, I was away. And there was kind of a child care vacuum all of a sudden in my home. Yeah. And guess who came to babysit my youngest on Friday? Uncle Chris. That's right. off the bench. Now, I need to tell you that I wasn't in on these high-level conversations, perhaps due to the time zone or perhaps due to my just unimportance in

these conversations. I found out about this event when I was FaceTiming with my children and they said, guess who's babysitting? And I literally listed 26 people that we know. That's what I'm guessing. Really?

I didn't make the top 25? I was like, the neighbor across the street fosters dogs and drives a pickup truck. They were like, no. No. Well, because as I said, I wasn't involved in the decision making. I, of course, would have vouched for you. I would have presented you as a candidate at the Galactic Senate.

Sure. But I didn't know where things were. And then they said, the friend you do your podcast with. Yeah. And I was like, Dasha from Red Scare? And they were like that. I was like, once again, that's not me. I just needed to mention this,

not only because it was a lifesaver, it was so kind of you, made me so happy that Uncle Chris was in the house turning on and off the Apple television. But I just feel like, you know, Chris, like you, you're a public figure. You cultivate a reputation and an aura. There are heads devoted to you

and really listen to the wisdom that you preach. And just a few days ago, you were like, and I believe I'm quoting, forgive me if it's an exact. You said, I have willingly ended my family line. To avoid watching animation. To avoid watching animation. And yet, just a few short days later, you were explaining to me the intricacies of Riley's dating life post Inside Out.

Well, so we watched some Disney pluse. Thank you to Bob Chebeck, not only for his support of the Greenwald family financially, but for... Indeed. No, that's right. The money goes in and the money goes out. That's right. Do you think it would be amazing if you had like a gig writing like the vision spinoff? But like they took out money every month for Disney Plus. Chris, you joke, but I pay for Spotify, okay?

Like I get those auto deducts. Do you think you'll, would you pay for a blue check on Twitter? Oh, I would sell my blue check today for just like not even American money. Are you kidding me? But yeah, we watched a little bit of the, you know, because there's all those shorts that come along, you know, from before the movie or whatever. Listen, I don't know. I don't watch as much TV with my children as you do, apparently. We watched the one where the two volcanoes sing to one another and the tectonic plates shifting brings them together. Yeah.

Yeah. And then we watched the Riley's. Did you get a little dusty in there? Riley. I got to tell you, it pulls at the heartstrings. And then we watched Riley's first date, which is a in and out, inside out, like spin off. and then we watched most of Inside Out. And then just because I know you mentioned how much fun you have with this

about when you turn on the Apple TV for the freeze frame of the last thing you watch, I just dialed up Day of the Salado to the part where Benichiel del Toro is like time to meet God. Just as a like a parting gift? Yeah. No, for you. Next time you stop by it, it's just like, oh. Were you familiar with Riley's emotional inner life?

Yeah, I'd seen Inside Out was one of the few. you Pixar movies that I had seen in the theater, actually. Now, last thing, like, when you arrived at the homestead, like, was there anything laid out like anything special for you? Like, was my daughter, like, really dialed in for Uncle Chris? Or was she like... No, she was like, I'm going to be watching TV. And then it slowly but surely invited me into the process. I must have been aware of my skepticism of animation as an art form. She listens to the pod. I asked her not to mention your Miyazaki erasure.

I also just want to say legitimately thank you for this and then a double thank you for not sending me the screen grab of Homelander with his arm around Butcher's kid

No, you sent that to me Well, I was that was trying to get in front of it. You know what I mean? I was trying to think about what would be the most upsetting thing that I could like text you while you're 3,000 miles away

and I'm just like, is this poison? Like, I don't know what I could have done. Yeah. How much it is. How much hand sanitizer is okay to drink? That's right. There's a couple of things I wanted to mention before we get to White Lotus, just kind of news-wise.

I don't really have, like, big takes on any of this stuff. I thought it would be worth mentioning the Severance season two began production. I just saw that, yeah. And they've done the custom additions to the season two cast. These are pretty noteworthy just because Gwendo and Christy, who I think is fantastic is joining the cast as is Olius Shawcat. and Merritt Weaver, which is like pretty nice pickups

as well as Bob Ballaban. Robbie Benson coming off the bench from back in the day is joining the cast. The voice of Beast in Beauty and the Beast, another cartoon that you didn't watch on Friday, but could have. I didn't, but could have. So excited for that to come back.

I wonder starting production now, it is like, oh, Robbie Benson, I wouldn't be surprised. It's like, that's my guy? Yeah, I mean, I can't say that I'm saying. that I've seen him in Getty photos at Madison Square Garden with Robbie Benson, but that seems like a deep cut. Yeah. Kai, should we pause and just Google that?

Like, we're finally telling the truth about something on this podcast. Scott Pelly is like, um, so yeah, that's coming back. I was kind of wondering whether or not that was going to make 24. If it's starting now, they should be able to do it.

I mean, Succession is able to turn around. I just noted with interest that in Casey Boyes's exit interview was, Joseph Vidalian about not exited, like Casey's not going anywhere, but the exit interview for the season of House of the Dragon that he really threw a bucket of cold water on any prospect of House of the Dragon coming back in 23 and that it was more of a 24 gambit. I think that if Severance is starting production now or, I mean, usually these cast announcements, these are all things that happened months ago and they announced them when the deals are closed

and when they start rolling, I think there's a very, very strong chance, if not an inevitability that it'll be back in 23. It's not as effects heavy as Dragon. I think that they also turned the first season around pretty quickly. I think they had filmed at the previous winter. It wasn't like there was a big gap. But I do wonder, this is pretty really inside inside baseball, but Apple definitely would want that show back for the Emmy window.

Oh, yeah. And that's the real question mark if they'll be able to hit that because that would mean getting back on the air by May June. But it's possible if they're rolling in October. where it's possible. The only other thing I had was I made a joke about there being a vision show, but apparently there is going to be a vision show. And I'm wondering whether...

I can't confirm or deny my involvement in that show. Jack Schaefer, who worked on Wanda Vision is going, or I think Ronda Vision is going to be writing this show. It's right there. You got to call it Vision Quest. I don't know if they will. Now, I wanted to give you one second to do sincere. The Tom King Vision stuff is really good talk.

Yeah. I also, can I just say, like, I would, I'm really into this saying I can't confirm or deny my involvement in things. Can I just continue to do that, including my role in the fraudulent election in Brazil over the weekend? Don't say. You're going to get us, like, kicked off of the internet for spreading misinformation, man. Elon will welcome me back. That's true. People think I quit Twitter last December because I had morals.

No, no. I was just waiting. I was just waiting for the chaos. What happened last December? That was when I stopped looking at Twitter. But was there like a moral reason? Because I felt sick in my brain and body. And I was like, this is torture and poison and hurting me in the world.

I just thought like it wasn't like you were like January 6th, but it was the final straw for me. You didn't get that text for me where I announced great fanfare that I was leaving the world's most corrosive social media platform. Why don't you do? I just wish that you would do that thing where it's just like friends. leaving the parapet here. Like, I'm leaving the parricades. And then, like, five seconds later is back in being, like, by the way, my Teagan and Sarah interview goes live on Monday.

Just back faving. Yeah. Oh, you want me to talk about vision? Yeah. Look, I, they actually use some of this in Wanda Vision. But, you know, there's a great, great, great comic book writer called Tom King. I think I've given this spiel before. But, like, his really, he's one of the most gifted comic writers out there, especially for

taking characters and telling the best version of that story. He's over at DC now doing that for, I think, he did Shade the Changing Man and a couple other things. But his Vision 12-issue maxi series called Vision, it's collected in a beautiful, you know, bound edition. You get hardcover, soft cover, whatever. And actually, I did the Marvel Comics in-house podcast about this a couple months ago. Sneaky son of a bitch.

Well, I call it the Prestige Comics podcast. I don't know if you know about that, but it's just something I like to do on side. Just keep, you know, keep the old juices flowing. Do those appearances, are those contractually obligated by Chepec? Like, do they also come out of your deal? You laugh as if you were not until the end of Grantland, a Disney cast member. You know, like we all were. That was what we were called when we worked there.

I just kept the goofy hat and, you know, just can put it on for events or for short-term consulting assignments. But I really recommend it. It really boils the character down to an incredible... It's just brilliant. And it's about what makes this robot who wants to be a man tick, and he builds a family for himself, basically, to become human. How many times does this guy died? Vision?

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's kind of like my electric car. You know what I mean? Does it die, or does it just get unplugged and plugged back in again? Is vision made by Bull Star? I mean, the fun thing about it is that, like, when you have a normal car, it's like the engine breaks, but with an electric car, especially one as poorly made as mine,

it's like, it just says like propulsion system failure. I'm like, I'm not fucking Captain Kirk. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just trying to get to the office. Jump to hyperspace malfunction. Or the time you're driving on the street and suddenly it's like collision imminent and it starts constricting the seatbelt. I'm driving 20 miles an hour on an empty road.

It's cool. it's cool. I definitely recommend driving a computer instead of a car. So yeah, it's like that. He dies a lot, not a big deal. I mean, I thought his death by the hands of Thanos was definitive. You know, like, like there's no coming back from that one. But I guess I was wrong. But I guess he still is dead and he's just like a figment of Wanda's imagination, right? Well, no. And now he's a white vision. He's white vision. That's right. By the way, if ever there was a hero for these times, it's white vision. Like that is really That's the superhero

This moment is asking for sadly No but like that's his That's his robot body but not his You know his passionate Wanda loving soul I just want to say What a sinecure for Paul Bettney Like that guy's

I don't know anything about his life I didn't read the transcripts of the Johnny Depp trial But uh huh It does see it does seem fairly decent You know what I mean And like best case scenario that he just sort of He hangs out in Park Slove with Jen Connolly, and then every few months, Kevin Feigey's like, all right, you know, your suite's ready for you here in Atlanta.

We're going to do some stuff. And he's like, great. And then in between, he just does that performance in Solo that I blacked out about, but I think we really, really enjoyed. It was very warmly remembered. Didn't he replace Michael K. Williams in that part? As who? Solo?

Oh, in Solo. No, in Solo, he was this character that I believe. believe in the Lord and Miller version, Michael K. Williams had been playing a version of his character. Was Michael K. Williams, like, on set and they shot some of it? I believe they did. And then they shut it down and Ron Howard took over. And I think Michael K. Williams was unavailable to continue. I see. And so obviously, you just go one click down on the call sheet, like on the audition sheet for like, if you can't get Michael K. Williams. So speaking of white visions, like the idea of Paul Bettney always being uncalled to replace.

Michael K. Williams is really a special. As Omar would be pretty amazing. Incredible. Him like making a toothbrush shiv in Night of. It's, I mean, I'm here for all of this. Let's talk a little bit of White Lotus. Let's stop beating around the bush. I was going to say, like, did you have any cultural highlights from New York?

I was curious whether or not in your New York adventure, if you saw anything that you would like to report back on. Well, I would recommend two great things. I saw the new Tom Stopper play Leopoldstadt, which absolutely We cracked me open and destroyed me. It's beautiful. It's a really powerful play. I wish everyone could see it.

And I did see, I saw the Edward Hopper exhibition that's up at the Whitney. Oh my God. It was very nice. Yeah. You fucking love a diner. You know what I love really is urban loneliness and malaise? Yeah.

So I felt really good about that. I would say, though, my favorite thing that happened was when I got on a train, as one does, I got on like an uptown A train. and there were, you know when you get on a train car and there's a certain energy? Sure. It usually goes one of two ways. It's usually either, why is everyone crowded on one end of this car?

Oh, no. And that's more of an olfactory experience that I remember very well. This was more just like a kind of a charge in the air. And it's because there was a group of young men, as it often is, who were having their own experience on this train at this 4 p.m. hour of the day. And it was fine. It was just like a little, like, they were kind of loud, you know, a big deal. New York City. One of them then did light a cigarette on the train.

Yeah. It was just enjoying a cool in the afternoon or whatever it was. And a conductor emerged in response to this provocation. And she was a very, very small woman. And she came out around this corner and they stubbed out the cigarette. And she, it was almost like a beautiful tableau. She just raised her arms in the, like in like a kind of essentially W.T. like what like you know what are you doing and my eyes went from her to the group of of young men and they did the single most disrespectful thing i've ever seen a living person do in my 45 years on this earth almost as if they had planned this one of them turned around and just made an extravagant drive the train gesture what's incredible about this is he basically lifted

his arms above his head and swung them back and forth like he was moving a steering wheel uh-huh to imply that her job she had no business that there and she should just, quote, drive the train. This was all nonverbal. You don't drive a train with a steering wheel. Even I, a Luddite, knows that, right? Yeah, I'm glad they don't. Can you imagine if a guy was like,

I'm going to take this corner a little harder than usual, just to see what the traction is on these treads. It was so devastating that I think she had to quit the MTA. Like, I was on her side. And she was the last one. She was the last person. She was it. And then it was just, yeah, then it was just a ghost train.

White Vision running the MTA. Anyway, I, Okay. I put out my cigarette, too, at that point. Tom Stoppard still got it, though? Yeah. Yeah. Should we make this a Stoppard pod before we get to White Lotus?

I mean, we can. I'm jealous. You've gotten to see more live Stoppard than I have. It was pretty funny because this morning, you know, I like to listen to the Bill Simmons podcast. I don't know if you're familiar with it. Yes. The sports guy, I believe, he goes by.

And it was very nice because he did, he shouted out this podcast, The Watch. and pretended he didn't know your name, so I love that. I love that bit. It's a great bit. But then he was like, you know, we got a lot of great content. We got the watch going. Chris is still cranking that out. And then he was like, on Prestige TV pod.

And he was just like White Lotus, but also like interview with a vampire. And he started listing all of these well-received and popular shows that we don't cover. And I got, I was like a little hop. Then I was like, okay, that's a good plan, actually, because these things are getting covered. And then at this moment, it suddenly became clear to me that it's because we're going to talk about Tom Stopper. that's not technically why that's happening. That's also because you're like, I don't want to watch interview with the vampire.

No one asked me. No one asked me about that show. It's got to be from inside. It's got to be you looking at Metacritics TV release dates and being like, what can I watch this week? What can I get into? What's the discourse? There's a lot of TV coming up in the next two months.

So I'm sure we're going to be pretty busy because we got slow horses in December. We've got White Lotus now. I want you to watch SAS rogue heroes from the makers of peeky blinders. You know, this is like kind of a peeky blinders treatment about the forming of the special services and we're during World War II. It looks pretty amusing. And there's lots of stuff coming out.

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Season two premiered last night with one episode. It's now obviously set in, not obviously, but for those who don't know, it's set in Sicily after the first season's Hawaiian adventure. And Andy, I wanted to start here. I wanted to talk to you

about the accidental series phenomenon that sometimes happens to HBO, which is when they have what is imagined as, I think, maybe not solely conceived as, but at least initially presented as a limited series.

And then due to the popularity of said series, there's just a demand for more. And some of those shows that have kind of answered that demand have done so at their own peril. I would say that the second season of Big Little Eyes is an example of maybe too much of a good thing. And then there are examples like True Detective, which I think has had varying levels of success over its multi-season run. You get the persistent rumors of stuff like, will they bring Mayor of East Town back after what was essentially, like, to me, at least like a very perfect piece of television. and whether or not they would bring that back.

But I thought it was pretty interesting that they brought White Lotus back, despite obviously there's like a, it's a bucket that you can refill. It's essentially like, hey, Mike White, put everything that you're interested in in this thing, like do whatever you want with this thing, as long as it has some sort of relationship

to the White Lotus Hotel chain. And you can also go to all these different places. You can cycle in cast. But what do you think it is about, what do you think it is about these series that initially start as limited? but then wind up having having legs. Do you think it's just down to the fact that these limited series tend to cast big people,

like your Nicole Kidman's, your Matthew McConaughey's, your Kate Winslet's. And then when people get a taste of that, they're like, hey, I'd love to have more Kate Winslet in my life doing Philadelphia accents, or is there something in this sort of, the first season or the season that people get is so complete and satisfying that they want to repeat that satisfaction rather than constantly kicking the can down the road, narrative-wise. I mean, the Emmys are the main answer.

I mean, this season was commissioned and shot before White Lotus season one cleaned up at the Emmys. But this is such an incredible, it's, I mean, it's such a success story. We've said that before. It came together so on the fly and paid off to such an absurd degree in terms of critical acclaim, in terms of award wins, in terms of ratings. I think it was quite the first season did very well. I think it should be celebrated because this is something that came out of.

It's also worth noting that I think people, it was one of those shows that people continued to discover long after its release. I was deeply charmed by Peter Schrager's story about going over to Sean McVease House. This is on Bill's Pie. Peter Schrager was like, I went over to McVeigh's house. We just watched White Lotus. Wow. Just two guys watching the first season. Yeah.

White Lotes. You know, at a moment when it's harder than ever to sell things to television or in this industry in this town, this is the hardest it's ever been, I've heard this, and I've gotten sense of this personally, it's even doubly hard to sell something original. And this should be celebrated because this came from circumstance of HBO head Casey Boy's basically calling Mike White and being like, you write fast, can you get us something during this pandemic year that we could shoot. you know, safely and quickly. But this is what we want, right? We want interesting idiosyncratic creators to be given the green light to do what they want and to have that be rewarded

is just good for the industry full stop. And it's good for HBO because, as we've been discussing over the last few weeks, you know, what makes that brand unique in this current media ecosystem? And I just think uniformly, like knowing the way Casey and Francesca and all the other people, their program,

they still believe in the legacy of that network and that they generate things and they develop things and they give people creatives the chance to do stuff that the other places won't. So yeah, are they reaping the benefits of Dragon

and the DC properties, et cetera? Of course, but this matters a lot to them. So I think all that is great. I think what's interesting about the beginning of season two was literally this episode that we're going to be discussing is the inflection point of,

okay, it's an ongoing anthology series now. So what does that mean? Is it purely the properties? Or is it something else that carries from season to season? And as a way to open up the conversation, I would say I was surprised by two decisions that I caught early on. One, I really didn't think, and I had no reason not to think this, but I didn't think it would start with a body and then one week earlier,

like the first season did. Bodies. Potential bodies, right? Oh, right. He says bodies, right. He said there's guests in the water, yeah. Yeah, so that's something surprising and different, but largely that conceit. I mean, it does make me curious how many seasons this is going to go because at a certain point,

they're going to have to rebrand. Like, at a certain point, they're getting into like Corona beer or Delta Airlines over the last few years. But it hasn't really impacted the bottom line of the cruise industry. I mean, how many times have we heard about like somebody taking a jackknife off at the back of a cruise ship, but they're like, but we still docked and crete, you know? Like, we still. Yeah, but I also think that there are just many. many, many, many, many hotels in nice places and the like, we seal a viral incubator with a

water slide and take you around the world. Like, there's really only a couple options for that. Sure. And if that's your bag, go for it. Do you think we move markets on this podcast? Do you think do we just sink the cruise industry? I don't think that's what did it. But yeah. Or do I think it's sinkable? No, it's unsinkable. I mean, other problems happen on the boat, but the boat stay afloat. Yeah. So I was surprised by that. And then at least, in the early going, the earliest of goings, one episode, I was surprised at how focused this season seems to be, or at least this episode is, on the upstairs of the upstairs downstairs. Now, of course, this is very early.

There's Lucia and her friend, Mia, who are, well, one of them is a sex worker, the other one's her friend, so we're sort of seeing them see the guests arrive, et cetera. we have the, what's her name? Valentina, the hotel manager? Valentina. Valentina is the manager, right? But I think one of the things that kind of locked me into the first one early was that it was going to be

a little bit upstairs downstairs for all of the sort of cloistered foibles of the guests, we would be with Murray Bartlett's character, who went on his own Vision Quest, let's say, over the course of that first season. Sure. We were kind of locked in with him. And that seemed... Natasha Rothwell's character, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So the lack of those characters, or at least the imbalance those characters was the other surprise. Because this is an opportunity for, as you said at the top, like Mike White is going to show us what a White Lotus anthology series means to him. He's writing and directing it all and where his interests lie.

I think that, let me ask you this. Provocative question here. Yeah. Do you think that the presence of Jennifer Coolidge and the, you know, her Tanya character being the one holdover from the last season, at least as far as we know, changed your expectations where you were like,

but I thought, okay, but if Jennifer Kuhl, if Tanya's here, shouldn't there also be long-suffering people around her? And I guess the Haley Lou Richardson assistant character, Portia stands in for this. But because there was remnants of the past season of White Lotus in this season, is that why you were like,

huh, they're not doing the, like, the class issues of the first season. They're doing something else. I don't know. I think it was more, that it could just be that, you know, Murray Bartlett, he won the Emmy. I mean, I love that him as an actor. And having him, and Natasha Rothwell was great, too. So I was locked in on them as equals and peers, you know? And maybe this is, maybe this is just me saying, well, the local workers at the place or outside of the place are clearly very talented Italian performers. I don't know as well. It really just could be that. And this is something that we could revise as we go forward. The Jennifer Coolidge returning thing was kind of interesting to me because I, we said this in the first season, which both of us ended up loving to varying degrees. But she's an acquired taste.

I support her, and I celebrate her success in this show. I didn't necessarily need more. But it also, you know, it's also interesting what we choose to do with it. Because her arc really illustrates one of the strengths of the first season, right? Where she is lost and suffering, but incredibly privileged, and sort of stumbles her way into an almost undeserved, but very sweet happiness while she stomps all over

to touch her off the character. Yeah, right. And that was so artfully architected and delivered and that was great. And so where else is there for that to go? Now it's Mike White, who is anti-sentimental, which I respect a lot.

So where it goes is where a lot of things go after the bloom wears off. And so her scenes with, is it Greg, I forget, it's the name of this, Greg. Yeah.

Were rough. You know, like those were rough and kind of not cruel, because I've seen enough of his work now to understand that Mike White isn't cruel, but in the early going, sometimes it can feel that way. He's honest, I would say.

He's more than, are people this awful to each other all the time? I mean, do you know what I mean? Like, that's kind of what I would, I understand that it's fiction and it's heightened and it's performed in their stakes.

Is it beyond the Tanya character that you're talking about? Are you talking about all the other? Yeah, across the board. See, that's the thing is I think that I sort of noted, and, and as you mentioned, we both wound up loving, we're both huge fans of this show.

Yes. And the project in general. I thought that across the board, I think my surprise or my eyebrow raise was more at the uniform melancholy that seemed to pervade the show, whereas there was almost a zany, not quite screwball,

but like every character on the first season was like pitched slightly higher. You know, like Steve Zon and Connie Britton were these kind of like comic daffy, you know, midlife crisis, you know, inspect my testicles and I have to get my Zoom background right and all that stuff. And then you had the Sydney Sweeney, you know, kind of like... The teens.

That was very funny. But like as this Greek chorus sitting by the pool reading and increasingly like outlandish book titles as they watch this behavior. And then you have like Jake Lacey character who is sort of almost a cartoon cartoon caricature of this buffoonish Ivy League guy. Like, you know, it was, it was like, there was a certain, like, almost larger than life aspect to the show. And even as Murley Bartlett's character, like, increasingly loses it, his, his sort

of behavior becomes, like, so, so big, you know? Yeah. And then everything here was very sad. I thought it was, like, a sad, it seems like it's going to be a much more melancholy show. I thought Michael Imperiali's character has this very, like, haunted, vacant kind of like sad, resigned vibe to it. I thought that, you know, the sort of two couples with the, with Will Sharp and Aubrey Plaza playing Ethan and Harper and Theo James and Megan Fady playing the other couple aren't quite dialed up to a hundred. You know what I mean? I even thought that the Theo James character who's obvious supposed to be an asshole, like is kind of, I don't know.

Like, it's the kind of person you'd probably run into in an air one. You know what I mean? Like, it's not that out of pocket. So it was interesting to see that the note that went across the board for the entire cast was, like, play it at a seven rather than a nine. I think that's such a smart observation. I think that is kind of what I'm responding to because it's almost as if, and this speaks to your original question about the ongoing series nature of it,

this season begins with a palette that didn't emerge in the first season until later. You know, there was regret and melancholy and certainly that the Tanya character was weeping, I think, when we meet her. But there was that kind of frenzy of, we're in a new place and the rules are different here, and we're going to reacclimate to it over the course of the first few days. That's not here. You're absolutely right. And that's, it's the first episode. So pointing it out isn't necessarily a criticism.

But I think that really helps me understand what I, it's not that I found anything lacking. I was looking. And that's also the nature of a returning show. This is kind of why I brought up the accidental franchise thing is because continuing series wind up having expectations tied to, I mean, the second season of True Detective for as like nonsensical as it was at times,

couldn't help but suffer from the lack of, at the center of this show are two of the most charismatic out there fucking leads that Hollywood produced in the last 30 years in Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson. Vince Vaughn, Taylor Kitch, and Rachel McAdams were all like these hollowed out

husks of people and they couldn't really like rise to meet this sort of true detective expectations. One character could. One actor could Colin Farrell is in a separate class there. Yeah. When you were talking about the most compelling and charismatic actors, I was like you're talking about Colin Farrell in season two, right?

A million percent, yes, I agree. That's the interesting thing about White Lotus. Most of the time, what we're longing for is, I want to see Kate Winslet wearing a hoodie, eating Wawa, and drinking, you know, yinglings or rolling rocks. You're not necessarily like, there's more meat on the bone, like what else happened in East Town that, you know, I need to hear about. You're totally right.

It's the vibe. You want to continue in the vibe in the world. It's like we want to see Richard. people being bastards in a lovely location. That's sort of the White Lotus thing. And then whatever happens underneath of that is really up to Mike White. So it's interesting to see him go away from and I think that both things are true. White Lotus season one was also about people at inflection points in their lives. It just also so happened to have a backdrop of, you know, the Hawaiian culture and colonialism and exploitation and all that, you know,

and class and like what people of less outrageous means need from the rich in this world and with the Natasha Rothwell-Tanya relationship. Whereas this season, it seems to be more about a bunch of people who have wound up going on vacation and realizing that maybe they don't like the life that they brought with them. Or each other. Or each other. Let's go through the guests because I think that the two traveling couples, were the most interesting to me coming out of this episode

for reasons good and bad. There's a scene when they're all drinking apparel spritzes. And talk about watching the news. And talk about watching the news. And I thought in some ways this was the White Lotus at its best. Because again, as we said at the beginning, this was a reactive show. This was Casey calling Mike White and saying,

like, do you have anything? And Mike was living the same world that we were living in with pandemic and social unrest. And so he's sort of responding to it. it. So, you know, you don't want your art to be... We also wanted to go to Hawaii for several months. And we all did. But we also don't want our art to be like a tick, you know, like the Chiron on the bottom of CNN, but we want it to be influenced a little bit, especially. And the show

is really built to do that. And so that scene where you have four characters across purposes, I really appreciated it because I thought everyone was right. You know, like that's often the best kind of argument when you can see on screen, because as noted just a few moments ago, I share Theo James's characters feeling about social media and news coverage on it. And it's best to just disengage because you cannot be artificially manipulated and to rage 24 hours a day and also have an adult life. But I also believe that one should know what's going on. And, you know, vote. I do think that's important. That's why you go to Facebook. That's why I go to Facebook to really know what's going on, to vet to vet these jokers running against my senators, Ron Johnson. And anyway,

But sometimes I work. I hate using words like worry. I know. It's okay. But sometimes one thing that I'm watching, right, is Aubrey Plaza's character of Harper, who is sort of the stick in the mud of, you know, of this group. Right. And I really like that she comes from a different world.

And if you remember, Alexandra Didario's character was similar, right? That she had worked a number of jobs. She was worked in media and then suddenly it was thrown into a completely different tax bracket. Right. The thing about the Harper character that I wish was pushed in a deeper direction is she's still wearing like a Versace bathing suit. Now, forgive me people who listen to this podcast who actually know what labels and fancy things and bathing suits are. I don't think that's accurate. But the only reason we know that she is different, right, is because of her attitude and because she's reading a book at night.

Otherwise, she seems totally rich, you know, and totally fancy. And I can't tell if that's astute in sort of saying, like, well, they're all the same anyway. And so, you know, trying to grade out the differences is useless because they're all there, you know, spending the same money and being as wasteful. But I kind of wish that she was a little bit, and maybe she will be, just pitched a little bit differently, or at least appearance-wise a little bit differently. So that that could be a richer thing other than, other than we as the audience also being like, oh, the person who doesn't like fishy fish at dinner is the worst. You know what I mean? Like that's, it's broad.

I wonder if Haley Lou Richardson's Porsche character is supposed to be that, you know, the person who's just like a little bit out of their economic depth, like means depth, you know? The Harper character,

I thought was pretty, I had to really gravitated towards those two couples. I think that that seems to be the spine of this show this year. I think that you're obviously seeing people at various points, like the spectrum of like

where you can be in a romantic relationship. or where you can be in your relationship to romance and love is, is depicted through Porsche, Harper, and Dominic, the Michael Imperioli character in some ways, you know? Mm-hmm. I liked that the way Mike White kind of lightly lampoons everybody at that table. Like, nobody is spared.

It's not like he's like Harper's take on the world. I even thought the way she's just like, so if you guys don't watch the news, what do you do? And then Megan Fadie's character is kind of like, well, I raise our children. And she's just like, oh, yeah, right, okay. Forgot about that. And it's like... Yeah, or that she's grossed, not gross.

She's grossed out and annoyed by the sounds of people laughing. Right. And being intimate in whatever form it takes. Like that was an interesting reversal. And I appreciate that about him. I think it can be disorienting because there is no POV character. that we can tell, right? And I think that that's something that is, you know,

I think that's good. I think that's complicated. I think that that subverts our expectation, but it definitely leaves you a little bit unsure of where to land. And I think that I say this is someone who watches, I was going to say watches a lot of TV, but this podcast definitely suggests otherwise. But I listen to a lot of prestige TV podcasts.

And even that, you know, I'm a little disoriented by that sometimes. Like I kind of want a safe landing spot. Yeah. I think it would have, like, so there's obviously some things that are carried over in terms of, you have Lucia and Mia, kind of, you know, in the Greek chorus roles, you have Valentina as the Murray Bartlett character, although I have a feeling, I haven't watched ahead, but I have a feeling, it is not going to take on as much of the pathos that Murray Bartlett and the kind of sin-eating that Murray Bartlett's character did. You've got these couples that are supposed to sort of stand in for

the Alexandra Didario, Jake Lacey, Connie Britton, Steve Zahn couples, although the dynamics different. And then you have this added element of this multi-generational family of Italian-American men, making a kind of pilgrimage of sorts. But even though

everything they're doing has a kind of noble father, son, and son, you know, Pat Knov, like, we're going to go back and we're going to see this village and we're going to see the ruins and all this stuff. It's really these guys are on, these guys

are looking for women. You know, like their, F. Marie-Abrah Abraham's character is a, maybe out of fashion, incorrigible flirt and possibly harass her. And then you've got Imperioly who's like trolling for women

in a different way. And it is apparently nuclear bombed his entire life back in Los Angeles. Based on his wife's take on his trip. Yeah, sure. So that's new, right? Like that kind of like, I'm not really sure where that's going. And I thought Imperiali, who's like,

really now kind of emerged as like he's always been like such a cool actor to me and such a cool figure you know in the stuff he's done but to see him get to play somebody with so much like hang dog energy. Yeah. Was really was really neat. I'm glad he got this part. I'm with you on that. I was interested

I wanted to start with those couples because that was some of the similar energy and I think that I'm interested to see which performers pop out of that group because obviously everyone in that group is really talented and very charismatic in holding their own. But to your point, like Steve Zahn and Connie Britton are big in talent and in stature and in reputation and in our experience with them, you know, and that really was shiny. I mean, Connie Britton, I remember we talked at one point on being like, it's almost like, is she a decoy, you know, because she's one of the great actors, certainly great TV actors of a generation.

And she didn't have that much to do in the early going. But it was such a weight, a gravitational force. And that's a little bit different in the casting this season. And I wonder if that's entirely by choice, because the franchise is bigger than any one performer. Or is it because summer 2020, everyone was available. And the thought of working and going to Hawaii was very appealing, I'm sure. Yeah, but I think Connie Britton and Steve Zahn really matter to you and me.

Yes. But I don't know that that's like having Reese Witherspoon in a couple. Cole Kidman in a show. You know what I mean? No, no, no. I agree. And maybe I'm just not, you know, like, like, Haley Lou Richardson who plays Portia. Like, I don't think I've ever seen anything with her in it, even though she probably has like seven million Instagram followers. No, it's 17's really good. The movie that she started was, was great. Oh, right? I thought, yeah, I thought she was really good. But I mean, like, like, like, again, that's not, that's not having, I mean, that's not even Sydney Sweeney, right? Like, that's right. Megan Fahey, who plays

Daphne is like a Broadway actor and she's really great already. And, and, you know, and great in the way that TV performers can be and that I didn't carry any baggage with her. And now I'm like, oh, this person is... On bull tape. Or she was on bull type, but yeah. But anyway, all of that was just as a segue to a lead-up to say that the dudes, the trio, that's something, that is something new. And I think that's pretty interesting, just sort of exploring generational masculinity

and things between... Like, that's not a story that you often see on TV. And I'm very interested in what Mike White wants to say about it. I also am really happy to see Imperioli because... To your point, like, you know, he's, for a generation of television watchers, he's, he's always going to be Chris, Chris, Christopher Maltesanti from Sopranos. The actual guy, Imperioli, is a practicing Buddhist, you know, and incredibly, like, by all accounts, like, gentle and intellectual figure. And I love that he gets to play pieces of that in this part, right? That he, that the, it's such, it's such a, he's so good at casting, Mike White, and he's so unique in casting, especially now, because he gets what he wants.

So there was no like, oh yeah, but could we see some alts for this? Can we see if Paul Bettany can read for the Haley Lou Richardson character? That wasn't here. You know what I mean? So the thing about Imperioli with this is that he's playing in some ways, I believe his real self is public self. He's quiet, watchful, sensitive. But because he carries the mob aura in viewers' minds, we buy that he might also be the absolute monster that was described on the telephone call, right? That's really cool.

Also, F. Marie Abraham looks phenomenal. I got to say, his shirts, the shirts are great. Yeah, that's all pretty compelling, but it did feel, and this is also maybe a piece of not just the circumstances of a show that's coming back for a second season, but a show that doesn't need to prove itself again. I didn't feel other than the body at the beginning, like in the first season, there wasn't a particular urgency. This was the first, this was a rival, right, even though it was a rival. So it didn't leave me, it left me interested as we're sort of descending into, I shouldn't say the ocean because that doesn't work out well. I was going to say that it takes a little bit of retraining of your brain coming out of these last couple months of Dragon, Rings of Power, and or to have maybe a less transactional relationship with the show you're watching. because I think when you're watching a big IP franchise show,

you're like, who's Soron? When does this person ride a dragon? What's going to happen if Vesaris dies? What's going to happen if this, you know, they don't get off this planet or whatever? And then when you're watching humans on vacation, it might not be at the end of the 45 minutes, something incredible happens.

It might be like, oh, there's more to this dominant character than it's him who. who they were communicating with, who Lucio was, there's not like a huge reveal. And, you know, I'll be curious to see, you mentioned in the beginning, the body's floating in the water.

I'll be curious to see what the payoff is with that later on, or whether or not that's a little bit of a red herring or a red herring that actually takes us in an unexpected direction. Like I said, I haven't watched ahead. I know that they are referred to as guests, by the hotel staff

when in that first scene. There's been a lot of refugee deaths in the seas of surrounding Sicily over the last few years with people escaping Libya and other places. I wouldn't kind of,

I bet Mike White's aware of that and I wondered, that was the first thing I thought of when I saw that just because he obviously in season one had a deep awareness of where they were shooting and what was happening to that place.

I would find, I wouldn't be surprised if that actually comes into play. Maybe not that specifically, but these people can't be encased in their own problems for too long. I hope that's still here. You're right to point out that that was a piece of the first season. Like, just the few small throwaway moments that actually nodded to Sicily being a place in Italy, that this hotel used to be a convent. Yeah.

That, you know, that scene where it's really about F. Murray Abraham flirting, but she's just like, I'm from Milan. Like, I'm not from here. I'm from another part of here, you know. I hope there's an opportunity for more than that. I would also say that, and we probably said this frequently when we were covering the first season, that Mike White seemed, he didn't seem particularly interested in the mystery of who was in the box in a way that I actually commend. You know, it doesn't mean that he didn't see it through, that he didn't build something that made it make sense and pay off logically.

because I didn't end the first season being like, wait, that was just a misdirect. He doesn't work like that. And I think that also speaks to your point about training our brain. This isn't a show about answering the question, right? It's a show about figuring out the right questions. And those are my favorite kind of shows. And I'm remembering as I talk about it that I think the moment that I truly gave myself over, I really liked the show before, but the moment I keep thinking about that I love so much

that really represented the first series to me was, when Tanya, Jennifer Coolidge's character, is at the bar with Greg, who is now her husband. And it was either the second, the third to last or second to last episode. And the fever pitch, certainly among viewers,

of who's in the box, was really cresting. And Greg had a coughing fit. You know what I mean? And it was like Chekhov's cough, and it was so funny and knowing because he was doing that to us, because he knew the audience in a way

that didn't feel, like we were being manipulated, it felt like he was sort of, it felt like he was having fun. Well, also, Greg would be the perfect person to, like, kill off because it's like you have the least amount of investment, probably in that character. He shows up late.

He doesn't really have a backstory. I mean, he sort of has a backstory, but he doesn't, it's really unclear what the, how he will tip the scales. And then it would sort of be like, oh, yeah, it was Tanya's boyfriend who passed away.

And she's alone again. I guess I just would say, I realize that I may sound tepid about this. You know, but I don't think that's the case. I think that what happened in the first season was because I had never really fully invested in Mike White's work, I had kind of a reaction like, oh, he hates people. Like he's just kind of misanthropic. That's not the case when given the time he does give every character some grace notes of humanity. You know, he's generous towards them and he does care about them in a way that I think is important for a creator.

He just doesn't sugarcoat it at the top. He doesn't do the thing where everyone seems good and then he slowly peels back layers of bitterness. is he leads with warts, you know, and then, and that's just, again, it's, you have to get trained to watch that way. It's a reverse polarity from the way most storytelling gets done on TV these days. When you're on vacation and you see the same people a couple of times, say around a hotel that you're staying at, or even if it's a town that you're staying in, you wind up seeing like the same people over and over. They may start out as two-dimensional people. And your first viewing of the Connie Britton and Steve's on characters from season one might be,

oh, that woman's so successful, or they have such a beautiful family, or they're so funny, you know, like they seem to be, like, real zany. And then you just increasingly dial up the sort of, like, emotional pain these people are suffering. That's so interesting. I think, I wonder if you could make the argument. Not that I remember a lot of, like, witnessing of emotional pain on vacation. But, like, everybody's got their own internal life. But that time we went down to San Diego and you slept like that,

I think was really a whole White Lotus season in 24 hours. No, I wonder if you could make the argument that this, that, that, that comes from comedy writing. And the reason I say that is because what you were just describing reminded me of like the, the now basically ignored first six episodes of Parks and Recreation where Leslie's, Leslie's shrill and annoying. Yeah. And Ron is, you know, is tough and whatever. Everyone's rolling their eyes at each other. And, you know, it's my favorite TV quote.

I use it all the time on this podcast and otherwise. But what Mike sure, well, Mike sure gives a lot of great TV quotes. But what he said about comedies about, you know, wanting to throw away the first 10 episodes and start people with the 11th because, you know, on the page, you start with caricature. And then you bounce the caricatures against each other and they start softening and changing in relationship to each other. And that is kind of what he's doing here, but it's in a different size box, right? It's an hour-long, it's not a thriller, a social, social, what is this show? Social satire? Yeah, and it's an adult drama.

I think it's a lot of like adult, like, problems. It's a lot of... I've only seen one episode. I heard Bill say that it was sexy. Bill was saying that this is a sexually charged season, which is what I want to hear between him and Cousin Sal. So I'm excited.

We can wrap it up there. So Thursday, here's what we'll probably do, obviously and or. And then we also have to get back on the Atlanta stuff. Because Atlanta... I think it's the penultimate episode is this Wednesday or this Thursday. We can be honest.

It was because of the divisional series that with the Phillies playing so well. Yeah. I like permanently deleted Gucci Main from my iTunes library. Permanently. Wow. Wow.

It was only, we wanted like, it was like 3-1. Take that Ronald de Cuis. Yeah, that's rough. Yeah, that's why we didn't, we haven't been keeping up, but we need to keep up. I have started catching up the episodes that we missed.

I think now because I saw a couple of, you know, what's the legacy of Atlanta pieces? There's, I think there's even like a short doc that FX has put together. So it's kind of like hitting me that this show is leaving us. And I think it really deserves some commentary. Again, Van and Charles have been doing an amazing job all season, breaking down episode by episode.

But I just, I think that when you think about the last five years of us doing this pod, one of the sort of central shows has always been like Atlanta. And I think that, you know, I was thinking about the patient. I was thinking about a lot of different shows that have come along, but how influential Atlanta is going to wind up being. I totally agree, and we need to cover it. It is bold of you to lay down this marker when the World Series is returning to Philadelphia tonight,

which means that the majority of this week is going to be spent crouch in the fetal position on my couch. Right. I mean, which is how I spend most nights, but this time the TV will be on. You can go as, you can go as. Jair Bolsonaro having COVID for the ninth time and just be on bed rest tonight as for Halloween. And then you can watch the World Series from that. The kids are going to get that right from jump. You know what I mean?

Just first pass, they get it. We were produced by Kaya McMullen. She does great work, doesn't she? Kaya's the best. I mean, I cannot believe what she puts up with on a consistent basis from us. Can I plug something? Kaya's got a show that she produced coming out this week called This Blue Up, hosted by Alyssa Beresnack on the Ringer Dish feed that people should definitely check out. And from what I've heard, it's like, Kaya's out here like peak Timbaland with the sound design and the production.

Are you twisting the knobs? Kai, what's going on? Do you want to give us a pitch for this? Yeah, Kaya, plug this blew up first real quick. Yes, sure. So this blew up is a six episode. I would say narrative investigative series from Alyssa's hosting, and it's about influencers and content houses in L.A.

and some of the shady stuff that goes on with that. I know about shady stuff happening in the world of content, but I can't wait to listen to this pod. And in the world of Brazilian politics. That's right. Andy, it was great to see you. I'll talk to you on Thursday. I think I love the question.

You know what? I'm going to make time for it. I'll be here. I can't wait. Bye guys