The Watch - Why Is Everyone Watching ‘Suits’? Plus, ‘Winning Time’ and ‘How to With John Wilson.’

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the fascinating rise in popularity of the USA show ‘Suits’ (11:48) and discuss the idea of a hard watch versus a soft watch. Then they talk about their complicated feelings about HBO’s second season of ‘Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty’ (33:25) and Season 3 of ‘How to With John Wilson’ (53:45). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For decades, the Vietnam War has been a Hollywood obsession. Apocalypse Now, platoon, full metal jacket, first blood. These were blockbuster films, embraced by audiences and critics alike. And for decades, they've helped us understand a painful war and understand each other. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Brian Raftery. And this is Do We Get to Win this time, how Hollywood made the Vietnam War. Listen on the big picture feed. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoraclytic arthritis. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you

have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at

the ringer.com and joining me on the other line out of the storm like Katie Crutchfield. It's Andy Greenwald! Yeah! That's for the real heads. I like that. Yeah, that's for my deep waxahatchy crowd. Greenwald's great to see you virtually. Katie's been on this pod twice, by the way, more than some major television creators. I know. You know, I mean, we have a repeat guests. We used to do that a lot when we were a Zoom product. You know, We used to have people joining all the time. And I feel like now that we've been an in-person outfit for the better part of a year, we've really concentrated on what goes on between us.

We're forced to be on Zoom today because of Hillary-related activities at the Spotify building. But shout out to everybody there. I'm sure we'll be all set for the rest of the week. Andy, it's great to see you. And when I say Hillary-related activities. It's because of her emails. There was a big storm in L.A. and it did have some impact on people and on some communities,

and there was some flooding and things. Broadly, I would say as a native east coaster, and I wonder if you share this as well, it seemed like people were losing their minds for potentially very little. This used to be called September when we were growing up. So, you know, it rained. It definitely rained. And I was thinking that it was kind of a nothing burger for me

until I got to the offices of Spotify. an internet-based podcast and music corporation to discover that their internet was not working. Yeah. We needed all that stuff to record this podcast. What we need is the internet. That's a tough L for them. And that was like a kind of non-negotiable thing for us is having the internet. We're going to talk about some television shows, some industry stuff.

We're going to talk winning time, how to with John Wilson. I do want to check in with you, Chris, because last time we saw each other, it was a raucous time. We were at a, we were not day drinking at a bar in Philadelphia in each other's presence. Yeah. When I left you, I left confident in two things. One, that may have been our last ever podcast. But I was like at least, it's the dog days of summer. It was a weird one.

But, you know, we were like, well, no one's going to, no one's really going to review the tapes on this one individual podcast. Sure. Four hours later, Bill, the sports guy Simmons checked in with some thoughts about our podcast. It was just like it sounded chaotic, but I enjoyed it. Yeah, no, we aren't in trouble, but I just really appreciated that, you know, we spent the year just like just really knows the grindstone crushing tape on like succession. Especially you. You can say it. Major shows.

Really, your recommitment to television and podcasting has been, it's really been inspiring. And I was really glad that our boss heard the episode where you were like, Andy, what TV shows have you been watching this summer? And I was like, Chris, I got to be honest with you. I don't have time to watch television. I thought that was a really good one. one for him to hear. But all I'm saying, so we got away with one, he enjoyed your Sarah Jessica Parker commentary. But I did leave that bar in Philadelphia confident in two things. One, the tomato pie flavor was by far the best of the regional chips. It's the last time I'll eat on a podcast,

I think. Oh, not me. Not me. Remember the time I cracked a yogurt in front of Jason Benzukas? He's certainly never forgotten. Although that, that, That doesn't beat the all-time great eating on this podcast story, which was when back in the old days, I was still recording in New York. And I interviewed Odencirk. Bob Odenkirk came in for Better Call Saul. Yeah. And we were having a really nice conversation about acting. He's a serious guy.

He was very friendly. And like 15 minutes in, he asked to just step down so he could just crush a power bar because I guess he'd been doing media all morning and hadn't eaten. And I appreciated that he knew what he needed. Yeah. But we just sat there quietly while he ate. Anyway, the other thing that I left confident in is that our podcast listeners were in for a treat last Thursday where you would just go into the circus as the lioness tamer, right? And you were going to do 40 to 80 minutes solo just talking about Taylor Sheridan shows. So what happened?

I just honestly, like, I didn't have enough. It wasn't about Taylor. It was about me. You know, because once I set up the idea of Taylor culture, hashtag Taylor culture, as this sort of. cousin to heat culture, something that we all aspire to, both in terms of land acquisition and body fat and also storytelling. I didn't think that I could, I was not worthy of the subject matter. I have to admit, lioness is so crazy. Like, it's so, it's so good, but it is so deplorable. It's amazing. Have you thought about getting back on the, on the, on the train with that?

I haven't not not thought about it. Like, it's definitely, this is going to be part of what we talk about today. I mean, it is a little bit slow in the TV verse right now. And, you know, it does sound electric. I mean, as electric as I imagine the cattle prods that they're using as interrogation tools. I told you, they just, like, redid. I think it's helpful to look at it as, like, a Sicario-adjacial-adjacent show, like literally taking place in the reality of Sicario, almost.

Saldania is really good on it, too, right? I thought she was pretty good in the first one. I think almost everyone is doing a great job on that show. I mean, I think everybody is pretty tight. It's like there's almost like this thing now with Taylor shows where you either get it or you don't in terms of how to do the dial. No, I don't mean viewers.

I'm not saying like it's not like a cold. I mean like the actors, he uses a rep theater basically of people in the supporting roles and they really do spice things up. There may be a sombal elect shortage. but it's spicy over in the Taylorverse, you know? Oh, I see what you did. I like that.

I don't want a hot take anybody, but I think Zaudaena underrated. Yes. As a what? As someone who's not blue or green, like when she is not painted in movies? Oh, when she's just like in roles? Yeah, that's the thing that's really cool is I don't want to like give away any like plot points of Linus. But there's been a couple of times this season where like she's legit good. And also not that she hasn't been before.

She's dynamite. but like they also are like doing the show in a way that it's just very adult. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it other than that. It's a very, it's a hard art, but it is, it is, it is really up my alley. I've been enjoying that. I've been, I've been grappling with my feelings about justified city primeval. Okay.

Where I think this is something that kind of happens when you're terminally online and reading about projects coming up and also have like maybe a decade-long relationship with a television. show and a multi-decade relationship with some source material. Just this is like you get in your head about it and expectations can get almost out of whack. So with justified, I'm enjoying it for what it is, but it's not what I thought it was going to be. And it's certainly, I think it's almost now reverting actually it's in this, these last few episodes, I think is finding its, it's, it's cadence and its rhythm as as as justified. But I think in the earlier episodes, the thing that was sort of, I was bumping my head again. a little bit was how it was deviating from Elmore Leonard. And obviously,

justified city primeval is based on a novel called City Prime Evil High Noon in Detroit, which is not a Raylan novel, but they have transposed Raylan, they've dropped Raylan into this and to the Ray Cruz character, and Ray Cruz shows up in Justified City Prime Evil. But there are some changes that they've made that I think are thoughtful and interesting and thought-provoking,

but are like, it's hard to do Elmore Leonard and do an adaptation of a specific Elmore Leonard's story with those specific characters and then also do what they're trying to do with kind of confronting railing givens with 2023, if that makes any sense. Well, isn't that also always an issue of like,

broadly, I admire the attempt to say, well, okay, what is this character doing now? What is the, what relevance does the story have in today's world culture? moment, whatever, but some characters and stories don't work that way, right? Like, they simply don't. And sometimes they're best left alone. It's not even a cultural norms thing. I think even that question you just asked is an excellent one that they haven't really gotten that deeply into and justified, which is what's up with

Raylan? Like, we know why he wound up in Detroit, which is sort of by accident, although not out of the question for Elmore Leonard novels where somebody is doing something and then they get waylaid to do something else. But I, I, I don't really, we haven't really gotten into how Raylan has changed over the years, if he's changed over the years, if that's a problem. And I got to say, I think Boyd-Holbrook and Vondie Curtis Hall are doing great work on it. And I think, Agenu Ellis is doing, like, an amazing job. The Carolyn Wilder part is a really interesting part. So that's the, the lawyer that she plays. In the novel, I find it's a much different, it's a much different character. You know what I mean? Like, it's a much different, um, it's a combination of Femfital and antagonist and eventually kind of co-conspirator with Pruse. But it's a very, it's a very different kind of rendition of the character in this show. And it's just a really interesting experiment. I think I'm going to sort of wait to like share my final thoughts until the show itself is over. But this is actually a good segue to what I

want to chat with you about today. You know, one of the things that justified was for me was the perfect blend of a long-running episodic case of the week, kind of fun, like, who's going to show up, like, who's going to be the guest stars, you know, on this episode of Justified or what will Raylan get into while also keeping an eye on the Harlan County world of Boyd and everything like that. And there was usually a big bad for the season. There was an overarching plotline, but they would be really good at doing these one-off episodes or maybe even following a supporting character on a different journey for. for an episode.

And then they've taken that, that sort of magic that they had with that show, and they've tried to do the limited series or the sort of mini-series. And I think that there's two more episodes of Justify coming out. And I am bumping my head a little bit

with the, is this case? Like, in a novel, you can just keep turning the pages and you're like, I love it, I love it, I love it. Let me get more. With, with an eight-hour or whatever it's going to wind up

being miniseries, there's something strange about, like, is this story big enough to fill out the walls of this show, right? Totally. And would this have just been better if it was like another season of Justified? And it was 12 or 14 episodes. And there was lots of different stuff going on to Detroit that Raylan was getting involved into rather than this one Clement Mansell case.

I bring this up because I wanted to talk to you today about something that's been chatted about a lot on various sites and pods, which is the newfound success of the former USA Network Show suits. So back in when it was doing blue sky programming, suits was a like a sort of workplace legal drama with some comic elements. And it went on for nine seasons. It ended in 2019.

And then this summer, it has absolutely exploded on the rating, ratings-wise, on streaming. It's on Netflix and it's on Peacock. And there have been a lot of pieces in a lot of conversation about what is behind suits of success. Can't just be Megan Markle is on it. What is it about this show? What is it about?

And I think it's just really like it just goes and goes and goes. You know, I mean, I think we can get into like the nuts and bolts of like, what is it about this show that isn't on TV right now, which I think is the bit bigger question. But I almost wanted a little bit more suits in my justified. You know what I mean? Like there's, I almost wanted a little bit more like, this is going to be here for, for a while. And there are certain stories that you want that long-form conversation with. I've talking too much. Please jump in. No, I think it's a great segue in one I'm really interested in,

because I think even to reframe it slightly, I feel like there are, this is reductive. There are many different ways to watch things in this era. But I do feel like there's still broadly two types of engagement with TV at the moment. There's the soft watch and there's the hard watch. And then there's our podcast. This is why you're my boy. The watch. You just boil it down. Well, you don't want to boil it too much, or this will get really hard. Can I use an egg metaphor? Look, a soft watch is what you're describing,

I believe, when you're talking about what justified used to be and what suits is. And frankly, and we can get to this a little bit later in the pod, what I think makes winning time engaging. It is a show that does not demand too much of you that is not asking you necessarily to meet it where it is or to learn the specific idiosyncratic rhythms or storytelling style of a particular author or creator.

It is television in the purest old-fashioned sense. That doesn't mean it's disposable. That doesn't mean it's like second screeny. It just means it's going to be there for you when you want it, how you want it, and you can engage with it the way that you might choose to. I do think that we have historically struggled covering those shows because to a degree slightly different than when we talk about why we don't talk about comedies. It's not just, well, that was good. It's just because there aren't the same peaks and valleys that lend themselves

to this week on coverage, right? And what does this mean for everything going forward? Like, you don't need us to really say that about winning time. We know what's going to happen going forward. Succession is a hard watch. I think other HBO's recent, recent HBO successes are as well, whether they're our beloved mayor of Easttown or what was the Hugh Grant, Nicole, Kidman show that was fun. Is that the undoing? The undoing, yeah. So unmemorable that I don't even remember the title.

But for those few weeks, it was really entertaining and engaging. Another show I don't remember the title of because I'm old now, I guess, is this is a good bit. But I wasn't prepared to talk about it. What was the Richard Price-Steven King show with Ben Mendelson and Cynthia Arevo? I can name the entire cast for you. Is it the outsider? Something like that. Yes. Yes.

Those were, to my mind, very successful hard watches and that they grabbed you. White Lotus says this too. It grabs you for a certain amount of time in week to week. The soft watch has been disrespected, frankly, not just by a culture that privileges hot take week to week podcasts like our own. We're grateful for it. Thanks Spotify. I'm sure your elevators in the parking lot will be working again soon. But also by the two dominant sides of the current writer strike, for example, right? Like, writers have really loved, you know, again, this is a general statement, but a lot of writers have really jumped to the chance to be like, I'm going to tell more challenging, more demanding, more quote-unquote, important types of stories. I'm going to leap into this idea where I only

have to do six of them. I can write an ending, et cetera, et cetera. And in the shift to streaming over the last 10 years, there was this thinking that is now being seriously questioned, if not rolled back, that the way to make a name for yourself was to do something punchy, splashy, and immediate. And whether that is a, you know, incredibly expensive genre show like Lord of the Rings, or whether it's a very expensive miniseries like Nine Perfect Strangers, right? those are attempts to be hard watches in a different way. Yeah. All of this is to say, the suits phenomenon, I think, is proof of, I mean, this is not like

the green revolution in Iran, but I do think this is a kind of a revolt of the viewer to a degree communicating something that I think has been slowly leaking into Hollywood cognoscenti for a while now, which is, wait, we broke something that wasn't broke. We tried to fix something that wasn't broken. Yeah, and we talk about this mostly from the business side of things, especially over the last couple of months of the strikes. But it's as much a behavioral thing. You know, different people can have different takes on different TV lineups at any given point. For me right now, I think because it's late summer and because I've been traveling a little bit and you've been traveling a little bit, like we aren't like quite not synced up with each other.

This podcast will go for another 10 or 11 years, I'm sure. But like, I mean, I think I'm not quite synced up with TV. itself sometimes. I don't know when I'm supposed to watch stuff. I don't know when I'm in the right mood to watch different things. There's a half dozen shows on right now that I like. Is there anything that's on right now that requires us to do like emergency pod after this episode breaking down everything we've learned and all the winners and losers and highlights from this episode? Not really. That's not a bad thing. That's TV. That's kind of like the relationship people used to have with television up until 2012 or whatever, whenever Game of Thrones really took

over or Sopranos really took over. It's like that idea that television and S-Mail gets mad at us when we talk about like fulting laundry TV or whatever, but there was a decades of television that was like you didn't have to necessarily have your eye on every scene of every episode. Waitel Sam hears us say that he's responsible for the death of blue sky program in the USA. This is going to be his least favorite episode of all time. No, but you just, you know what I mean? Like I almost want to. I wonder whether, you know, you're like, shows like suits are being disrespected. And I wonder whether or not, especially at a time of the year where people are maybe not like, I have this

stringent work week, I come home, and then there's like the one show I watch tonight or whatever. It's maybe there's a little bit of fluidity. People might watch three episodes of reservation dogs and then wait three weeks to catch up on three more. Like, I don't know how that works. What I do know is what I see in the numbers. And I'm a data guy, you know? Always happen. And here is, this is from Nielsen, who, I don't know, is there any more name you trust more in television? According to Nielsen, suits across Peacock and Netflix racked up 18 billion minutes of viewed minutes in July. And that's just in July. And if this is a phenomenon that's catching on and people are watching suits, you can imagine that the August numbers will explode as well because they will continue to watch seasons of suits.

Like once you get invested in a show, one of the things that's nice is to know that there are two or three or four seasons. I think there's something almost nice about knowing suits is over. If Suits Season 10 was debuting the fall, I don't think I would start from season one and catch up. You know, that's not, that's a difficult proposition. Knowing Suits is over is kind of like what I've been doing with,

with Deutschland, where I've just been like, every couple weeks I'll watch like one or two Deutschlands because I want to, great show. Yeah, because that was just a weirdly, I missed it, you know, except for the first season. So it's been kind of fascinating, to see this explosion, and I wonder whether or not the sort of completeness of it helps.

Well, let's come at this in a couple. There are a couple different ways to come at this. One is, to be clear, not just to defend ourselves against Sam, to bemoan the lack of attention or production of shows like suits, is not to say we want to reduce the number of smart, interesting directorial autores shows on television. We're just, saying that it is a large, diverse medium that in a perfect world services many different types of viewing. Because there are some people, and we're going to continue to use Sam as the straw man here, who only watch, you know, elite shit in a perfectly black room with a giant screen. Yes. But there are other people who can do both. On part of my journeys across America

in Steinbeck fashion over the last few weeks, I stayed with my dear friends, John Carlo and Monica in New York, and their kids are away at summer camp, and they introduced me to their new nightly ritual, which is after dinner, they sit down, and they fire up the next episode of the NBC television show, The West Wing.

And that's their post-pranial activity. And have they watched that before, or is this the first time through? believe they had watched it before. I don't know if they had watched it in its entirety in this way. They are incredibly cute. They applaud when the credits roll and watch at the beginning. You know, there's that the soaring music. Yes. And I sat with them and I watched an episode of the West Wing. It was like post Sorkin Wells era. It was like Smiths. Smiths was coming. You know, Hurricane Jimmy was about to touch down, but it wasn't quite there yet. It was kind

in-between storylines. And I'll tell you something. Were you a West Wing guy? I watched it. I was not a religious follower of it, but I did watch it enough. That's also the way TV used to be, right? Like you were, you weren't a let Bartlett be Bartlett guy, right? What do you mean? I felt like Congressman John Goodman was like holding him like holding him back. That wasn't like an ethos for you. You were like, this is, this is goals to be a Sam Seaborne guy. And when Rob Lowe left, so did my heart. No, but that was also, what's weird is to just admit that, right? Like, I did not watch that show the way I watched Breaking Bad.

I did not, I missed many, many episodes. But when this episode came on from season five, I was like, oh, yeah, I remember. I remember the way the board was left broadly. There were also some things in this episode that were super wild, like just both in terms of a lot of jokes about what the members of the Chinese delegation would be eating. and I'm like, oh, like, we're doing these jokes. This wasn't that long ago. But two, the dialogue, again, this is post-sorkin.

So this is like absolute, like the John Wells School of like, we're room writing this drama and there's another one to do next week, which I have a lot of respect for. No piece of dialogue crackle. There was no shot where I was like, my God, I'm moved by this. But the whole thing moved. You know, it was very entertaining. And it was pleasurable. And my comment about this isn't just like, we should.

go back to that, it's that we are not keeping the coffers full of the next generation of this type of show. I think there was a lot of chatter when Pokerface debuted on Peacock that it would be a return to old school pleasures, you know, case of the week. It was like Columbo, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Whether or not you believe that that was the case, the very nature of production in 2022, 2023, puts just invalidates that entire. idea. Because it's in Tasha Leone, who's a big deal, and it's Ryan Johnson, who is a big deal, and it's expensive, and you have to shoot it in multiple states, we're not getting a second season of it this year. We will get a second season of it at some point. It seems like it did very well

for Peacock, and it was renewed. But part of what we're talking about, and part of the suits phenomenon, is that there is more of them, that they were reliable. Yeah. And I think that kind of, that matters almost as much as the quality of the piece you're talking about. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere

and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need, fast and reliably, so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from

the sidelines. Same day delivery, It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas. Terms apply. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch.

Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered. registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small.

So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. There's something to the, I mean, I honestly don't know what to make of this. But in that Nielsen ratings that I was telling you about, so the top 10 for the week of July 17 through the 23rd, all of the top 10 have at least 15 episodes. So it's like suits, bluey, NCIS.

I'm sorry, what was that? You made a noise there. Maybe there was like, was there a problem with my recorder? Did you see that fantasy is getting blue-y-pilled? Yeah, but it's weird. He won't talk to me about it. You know? I feel like, I feel like I'm here for him. But, you know, we have to let people make their, I feel like this is something they teach in Alonon, right? Like, you just have to let people make their own choices or mistakes. And then when they're ready, they'll talk to you. So it's suits, bluey, NCIS, sweet magnolias, Grey's Anatomy, Lincoln lawyer, and Jack Ryan, along with, you know, like a couple of other things. But all of the things in the top 10, people are, it's almost. It's almost. almost like people are making this commitment to shows that they are like, I will have this on for the next couple of months or years even. And I think you can also make some sort of assessments about long-running procedures and long-running soaps have always been very successful

and like a backbone. And I think that suits is, in some ways, a perfect combination of both. Like, I think suits is fine. I am not going to embark on a suits rewatch or anything like that. but I do think that it combines legal procedural with soap opera in a way that's that's expert. It's really well done. And also, what is the goal in the watch, right? Like there are shows, and there's so people, maybe even people listening to this podcast, who have not watched Breaking Bad, let's say, and have that to look forward to. Maybe they talk about it.

They're like, oh, you know, if I go on when the kids are out of the house or when I get COVID for the ninth time or whatever, like I'm going to be. I'm going to crush that and I can't wait. And you had COVID eight times? Listen, if you don't test, there are no cases. A great man once told me that. But regardless, when you're watching Breaking Bad, you can enjoy it episodically because there are masterpieces of the form and they're

individually. But once you start that journey, you are watching it to completion because you want to know what happens. Yeah. Now, I'm not an old school suits head, but I imagine the final season isn't revealing what they were wearing under the suits the whole time. You know, that's not what the journey is not about the death. destination, which again is a different type of viewing experience. And, you know, not to bring

too much of the industry side into this, but it's been interesting being part of conversations with with showrunners and other high-level writers who are on strike right now. The creative community. Yeah. You know, the vibrant beating heart of this beautiful town that we live in. They couldn't wash it away. I know. The rain has only brightened our luster here. There's a version of it where people are like, well, one of the, the reasons we're on strike is because, like, life would have been easier if we were all still writing 22 episodes a year. Like that, that worked. Okay. So let me, let me just push back a little bit.

So some of, please, I don't know if I believe that. And somewhat on behalf of Julianna Margulies, who at the end of the good fight, or good wife, which was going to be my recommendation for people if they are looking for something suitsish is, is, is the good wife is just exactly that. It's like a great legal procedural. It has cases of the week, but it has a long-running, lots of long-running storylines across the series about Juliana Margulies' character and her relationship

to this law firm and who she's dating and all these things. At the end of that show, she was like, I would not make a 22 episode television show for a billion dollars. Like, everybody involved with it was like, we have realized how

completely certifiable it is to do that. She was also on The Good Wife, Ann E.R. so she may have a billion dollars. Sure. That is a unique position. So Julianne Marguerleys is by the Sixers? Oh my God.

Don't tease me like that. I wish someone would. Nurse Carol, just bringing Hardin and Morrie together. Nurse Carol, just putting the fire under Nick Nurse. He's fine. Nick's fine. Nick's like, can I draw up some fucking plays for once, man, instead of all this, this international global intrigue?

Can I come on Philly Special to talk about the Sixers? can talk about it right here. We just did an episode in Philadelphia. Yeah, I know. And by the way, it was our best episode ever. I think everyone's saying that. Now you're like, I want to, because you said to me before we started, you're like, I want to keep this one hinged, you know, for proprietary reasons. So just feel, I want you, don't clip your wings. If you want to talk about the birds, if you want to talk about Nick Nurse, if you want to talk about what movie you watched yesterday instead of Lioness, just feel free, man. It's a free-flowing exchange of ideas. When have I ever felt hampered? When have I ever behaved as if I've been muzzled?

You know, I feel great. I feel like free speech is alive and well here on this podcast. But yes, look, I wasn't necessarily advocating a return to the 22-episode format, although I think from the writing should be a career perspective, there was something, I think, pretty decent about the quality of life, in that you knew you had a job and you kind of had two or three months off in the summer like a school teacher and then you went back to work. But it produced a different type of product and it was a different type of...

You mean a different type of product than what school teachers produced? No, I think we're all equally saintly. Yeah, you know, I think we're all pretty important. So I appreciate you making that distinction. It's just that, you know, we're just properly compensated for what we do. It just feels like with everything in American society, something snapped and everything is too expensive. And it's not working for anyone at the moment. And what I mean by that is maybe to return to the poker face analogy, which is everything about the way that show was described.

Up to and including the way the show actually was. Like I didn't love the whole season, but I appreciate and respect the project and really enjoy the first. few episodes for sure. All of that is what, it all made sense. I mean, we even did podcasts before we saw any frame of the show being like, ah, if that's what Peacock is doing, that would make sense. Like there are people who are involved in the programming at Peacock who were the programming team at USA during the Blue Skies run and afterwards.

And they understand that very well, I think, the value of the soft watch of the putting a lot of talented people to work on something that might be broadly popular. But just the logistics of all of this, like even to secure that show was incredibly expensive because there was a bidding work. It's Ryan Johnson and St. Sasha Leone. So already you're kind of behind the eight ball. And then if the whole purpose is to make something quick, snappy, soft watchable, it's kind of not possible under that economic model, right? It's very top-heavy. and thus production is going to drag for as long as Ryan Johnson wants to drag.

Natasha's not going to work on something for 10 months of the year, probably. She's got other projects. Ryan Johnson's got other project. Gotcha, yeah. So again, that is like potentially, and not to use that one show is the punching bag for our entire argument, but like that's an imperfect example of this because it's a more contemporary sensibility trying to do an old-fashioned thing.

But part of what made the old-fashioned thing good is, like, look, can you, other than Princess Meg, Can you name anyone in the cast of suits? Gabriel Mocked and Abigail Spencer and Patrick Adams. I do not have it up. Do you have it open? So here's, first of all, with Gabriel Mocked, I was trying to remember if he was in the Colin Farrell movie Tiger Land the other day.

And I never looked it up, but I was just trying to remember. For Patrick Adams, I recently watched his architectural digest tour of his house. That's cool. And then for Adela's... The house suits bought him. Yeah. And for Abigail Spencer, I'm a fan. She's been on this podcast.

Yeah, yeah, I'm just a fan. So rectify. And there's lots of Ngena Torres is on it. So I, you know, like, I don't know why, but I remember the suits cast. Rick Hoffman was like the big fan favorite, right? That was the Lewis? I didn't bring it up to say that these people. I got to go.

You and Juliet should replace this feed with your suits show. Yeah. No, I didn't mean to disrespect those people, but it does, again, that's a more. But it's an older, it's a different TV model, which is. TV makes stars. Stars don't make TV. So, and again, maybe the better example for the purposes of this podcast isn't to say Pokerface, but also winning time. If we could just fold it in, I mean, we're four episodes into the season.

I know for this, it was a spec. The reason why you keep asking to talk about this today, especially, is just because of how important Larry Bird is to you. Larry Bird, I mean, the greatest. I mean, anything that's about just the Celtic way, I'm all in on. I watch this show week to week and would find it very hard to commit. I think it is in some ways getting worse. I mean, if I could just frankly say that,

I don't think it's nearly as strong aesthetically or compositionally as it was in its first season. But as I've said before, I'm not going to miss an episode. I really, really enjoy watching it because everyone on it is good. the vibes are strong, the tone is quick, and it is a wonderful, to me, soft watch. You know, even adding one other piece to it, the kind of other missing piece of what a soft watch is in the streaming era,

which is if we weren't podcasting about it and it wasn't on HBO, I probably would let four or five episodes pile up and then, you know, if I carved out a nice little Sunday, I would have a great time. I think it would be even more enjoyable that way. To watch winning time that way. I think, so,

winning time, I think is just, the scope of winning time is just too wide to me. Yes. I think it's trying to, I actually like, the kid who's playing Larry Bird, I don't have it up in front of me right now. It's Patrick Adams. It's Gabriel Mocked.

Suit star Gabriel Mocked. Is awesome. Not only because he looks like him and he shoots like him, but because he actually has some of the fuck you kind of swagger that Bird had. They kind of dead-eyed. Yeah. This show trying to be a complete panoramic pocket history of 1980s basketball

and also the bus family and also the interpersonal dynamics of the Lakers coaching staff and front office and also Magic Johnson and his first while girlfriend Cookie and also and also is too much. And I think we kind of diagnosed this after the first episode where we were like, this show should just be succession. but with the bus family, I personally find myself most deeply drawn in

this season to the Paul Westhead, Pat Riley's storyline. And I guess this is like, it's cool that they have six storylines and if I don't really want to listen to Magic and Cookie have another phone call of exposition, I don't have to.

But right now, I think a really good thing that's emblematic about like what's going on with winning time is that they're wasting scenes. Which I did not, This is not like a criticism of like the writing ability of the people making the show. It's more that there's a scene in the fourth episode, I think, or the third episode that just aired, right?

The fourth is the one that just aired. The fourth episode that just aired, there's a conversation in the Lakers front office among the sort of the GM and the coaching staff about whether or not to bring in Mitch Cupchak, who would later go on to run the Lakers essentially as general manager and now works in Charlotte. And Mitch Cupchak was like a UNC player. He was playing for Washington and they want to trade him. There's something that Paul Westhead needs that Mitch Cupchak has, toughness, whatever it is. And there's a really cool dynamic happening where it's not unlike other offices where it's like, oh, you didn't get the, you weren't invited to this meeting and who told you this and did you, did you have a conversation with somebody about something or did you just mention it to them?

Is that what happened to us today when they were like, sorry the internet isn't working when we showed up to do this podcast? But in this scene, it is completely subsumed by Hurricane Jason Clark, who's playing Jerry West at a 13 and screaming through every scene he's in. And I like Jason Clark a lot. But beyond the fact that that is by all accounts, not exactly what Jerry West was like. It is actually now, like, drowning out whatever the scenes are about. And that is actually, it was actually a really. It was actually a. really interesting, like, how did the Lakers get shaped? Who was responsible? What were the ideas that went into this idea of this franchise? And you can see Pat Riley and we know what's going to happen with him, but he is an outsider in this moment in the Lakers. And I thought that would have been a really interesting, dramatic moment that just gets blown up because you got to have chick her and say something funny. Jason Clark has to scream. Paul Westead has to be nervous. And like, you're communicating too much to too many people rather than just telling the story.

I think that's exactly right. There's too much, it spread way too thin, and they're also lashed to the historical record. So Jerry West's storyline ended in episode five of last year in terms of he was a player who couldn't handle it. The stress as a coach, he hated it too much. He couldn't even be in the room. And then he softened on McKinney and Magic, and that's his journey. He's done. He's functionally done. However, he stayed in the front office for quite some time. And then went on to do other things. And was arguably the architect of multiple multi-title-winning franchises.

Yeah. Yes. But there's no room for that right now. So everybody just kind of has to keep playing their one notes. Like the one you were saying about there has to be another scene where magic and cookie, he's like, you're going to be with me. And she's like, no, I'm not. Okay.

We were now 14 episodes into this. Yeah. If this was not based on historical record, this would have been noted to death and rightly so. But that's not the show. That's just not the show that we're making. So I think it's well observed. You know, there's so much potential there.

And again, like, the saving grace of the show might also be, the saving grace of the show is that that's Jason Clark, right? Like, that's a great actor. Similarly, I really am not that motivated by the- And maybe I'm too interested in Jerry West. And I just, that, that's my problem because, like, I'm like, I think that there's a more nuanced character in here than the one that's getting depicted. But there's no room for it.

Similarly, like, you can only use Jerry West to explode. You also only have so much real estate so that when you're trying to download the Larry Bird story and essentially flashbacks in one episode so you can get him onto the court with magic again in the next episode. Because we've gone, but they went through the 81 season already. Yeah. And what you get then are scenes like the one that started this episode, where Larry Bird, whom we don't really know well other than knowing him in reality,

has a one scene with his father that has like the greatest hits, a conno pack of flashback cliches, of, dad, I'm doing this, you're a disappointment to me, I'm going to drown my sorrows in beer and old photographs of you that I happen to have right in front of me for your one visit. Like, time, like, all stories for the screen are made up. Like, things don't really dialogue. is always heightened, et cetera. But like, when you have a scene like that where everything significant

happens in one visit, because it's the only time that guy's going to be on screen, it starts to be bigger belief. Yeah, it just pushes it back towards a place that I think the show, at least in its initial premise, didn't want to be, which was Wikipedia the series. Did you see, I kind of, yeah, I mean, when this show first came on, I think we were both like, this is really fun. I think there was a little bit more visual dynamism to it, maybe, or a little bit more reference. They got to make a decision here because the film stock and the like, yes, he really played in jeans, like one to two out of McKayisms per episode, why are they even there? Just make a show. Or do do it, do it all the way back into that. I don't know if that would be the right choice either. I do kind of watch this show like the way I watch Narcos, which is like I enjoy it. If there is a subject matter that a storyline that I'm not particularly interested in, I may walk out of the room for a second to grab a bottle of water or a glass. of water because I'm worried about plastic consumption. I respect that about you.

You're the guy that gave me and Kai a hard time about carrying our own water bottles into the office, right? No. You were like, what are you going camping, Naljean? Like, you were brutal. I wasn't like that. I just remember you saying, like, making fun of us and then like crumpling three bottles of Fiji and being like, it's better because it comes on a boat.

That was just such a weird. And then it goes back to the ocean where all water is from. Oh, I thought you meant the bottles go back to the ocean. No, I did. But to bring it back into the bounds of the conversation we were having before, like, I don't have the entire history of HBO in front of me, and I've loved so many HBO shows. But this is, to me, like, one of the most compulsively watchable, even though I don't, as you just heard us criticize, I don't think it's elite, but I really enjoy watching the shows that they've ever made. That said, I look at the cast list and shooting in L.A. I'm like, this must be one of the most. expensive shows on television.

Dude, I was like hitting you up last day. I was like, Ari Greener's on this show. Like, and I was just like, how is this happening? She's like the 13th person on this show. It's just the most outrageously stacked cast. And it's a huge cast. And there are presumably more names coming if they continue as history demands it.

It's not, I don't know. We don't need to why. The argument about more suits shouldn't necessarily be only viewed through a business side cost-effectiveness lens. And I keep bringing it to that. But maybe it's because of the current labor turmoil or whatever, but like that doesn't feel sustainable to me. Like we do need more entertaining shows and we need more elite, prestige, star-packed shows. They don't all have to be the same thing. And I don't know whether we're ringing our hands about this, but the consumer is just like, what are you guys talking about? Jeff Perlman, who wrote the book

The Winning Time is based on is on Twitter being like, we need people to watch this show because we're not able to properly promote it due to the strikes. And you're like every, basically every viewer counts, you know, over the course of the second season if we want to get a third. But do you also think that all of this is such a deep up its own ass Hollywood problem to the sense that like a casual viewer, and again, I don't know how many casual viewers listen to this this unhinged or semi-hinged podcast on a week-to-week basis. But they're like, TV's great. I have Jack Ryan. Yes, that's what people think. reruns. I have Terminalist. I have Bob loves Abyschola or whatever on Wednesdays on CBS and ghosts.

And okay. I think that's fine. What we're seeing more of, if anecdotally is that there were five, six years ago, there was a moment where it felt like there were three or four places to reliably be entertained for whatever it is you consider entertainment. You could just turn it on and get what you want. And now there are people who were like, you know what I really liked? Was that time that you guys talked about the lesbian detectives on the submarine. And it's like, that's vigil, a British show on Peacock that you have to search for on Peacock to find. You know, like, there's people who are like

very deeply interested in television who have no idea where to find what to watch or when it's on or when those new episodes are up or how many different services they need to have or whether they should be canceling certain services at certain points or those services are getting folded in to a bundle with Disney or Paramount or whatever it is. And yeah, I just, I think that that that speaks to like, there is a, a little bit of a mystery as to like how and when to watch TV now or what we call TV. There is also a just yawning disconnect. I do think, like, you've heard this complaint,

and I think it's a little bit strong manning, and it's a little bit of like a minefield to wait into anyway, but there is, you hear people say, like, who are these movies for? Now, I know that that's a tough question when we are like, who made this, who is the show for? I don't want to get down that argument. But, and I'm not, often this argument comes up in terms of like, who wedged this woke whatever into my movie franchise? That's not the way I'm bringing it up. But there is, there has been such an explosion of content over the last five or six years, mainly to pat out the shareholder growth model for streaming, nascent streaming services.

and there is a, there is a reckoning coming. You know, there just, there simply is. And if at the other end of these strikes, one of the talking points from the people making decisions is blue skies programming works, that's not unreasonable. It's not unreasonable. It doesn't mean that HBO won't still make, I mean, again, this is who actually knows what this is going to look like, but I don't think saying that means that HBO isn't going to make the next Michaela Cole.

show or the next I will destroy you. You know, I think that gets me. No, but we're about to talk about how to. Obviously, they're still in the business of like pushing the boundaries of what TV might be. Yes. But I wanted to ask you before we did get to how to. Did you have a recommendation for somebody who's like, I'm into suits. I'm into this kind of TV.

Give me another show to watch. I said, I said good wife. And I would also recommend, honestly, billions. Billions feels like a throwback in that way. Billions is wrapping up its run, I think, soon, if it's not already on yet. But those first few seasons of billions, especially, deeply entertaining, very funny, like gripping and full of like multi-story drama that, and it largely set in one workplace or two. I'm going to be a cliche with my pick.

Like people are probably, if you have it on the bingo board, you could probably guess. but anytime I have a chance to get people to watch Terriers, I'm going to do it. People who remember the Grantland days knows that that was my great hobby horse, that the phenomenal FX series Terriers was just only lasted one season, and I loved it so much. It's now 12 years old, I guess. I think it ran in 2011, but you can watch it on Hulu.

And it's an example of a show that was just just the, literally slipped through the cracks, just the wrong time. If it had been five years earlier, it may have taken off on FX when FX was under different, not under different leadership, but different, they had different ratings goals, frankly, and different programming goals. If it had been on USA, maybe would have made more sense in a different way. It is a really charming, like sort of knockabout, down on their luck, private investigator show about two guys played by Dona Logue and Michael Raymond

James and they're in Ocean Beach near San Diego. And if it had lasted more than one season, I think you could say, oh, it was a case-to-case, a week-to-week case-type show. It was one season, so it wasn't. It was one season that ends pretty perfectly. So it's worth your time, your 10 hours. But to me, it's just, it's amazing that it's been that many years and I still could probably would struggle to find five more shows that captured that vibe for me of just what I want to be watching. I kind of wish you would completely give him me the middle finger with that prompt and just been like Twin Peaks the return. I thought about it.

The other ones that were, but I did like, you know, I did. Would somebody who likes suits like better call Saul? Yes. Do you think that there's like a large, like I think that they would. There's a lot of procedural. There's a lot of comedy. There's a lot.

I think that there's who's this guy, Mike Ermintraught, like takes a few years to figure it out if you don't know what Breaking Bad is. But there's also a loom. dread on that show that I think you would pick up on even if you hadn't watched Breaking Bad. I think that there is, there's the, there's the Mike origin story flashback episode. I believe in the first season at Better Call Saul that is absolutely remarkable, a showcase for Jonathan Banks, but also would really knock you off your square if you happen to be folding

laundry and just there for the legal hijinks. I feel like it's an interesting suggestion, but I also think that what we're arguing isn't that a suits viewer wouldn't like better call Saul. It's like if you like better call Saul and you've watched suits after dinner for a couple weeks, what else would you watch? Right. You know,

I think we're trying to suggest things that are not worse, not dumber, just different. No, yeah, yeah. I'm also trying to suggest things that people can be like, oh, I have six seasons of this to watch. But I think people who like sip elite bottled water, you know, and their ivory towers might not be able to do.

Yeah. Do you know what show I really wanted to recommend, but it's different. I walked back from it for two reasons. One, the show I wanted to recommend is not available on streaming, which would have been very me, but also not appropriate. But I think that you were right to highlight the procedural aspect of it, which I think is very calming and inviting. I was thinking about drawing people to just the type of show that just simply doesn't

exist anymore, which is the broadcast family drama. Oh, like brothers and sisters or something? Yeah, I was going to suggest once in a. again, which I haven't watched in a decade, but I loved it. That was the show that Evan Rachel Wood debuted on. And it was a Cila Ward. In this house, we believe in Cila Ward. Always, always, always the oldest and best, the first sister number one. Isn't Swazzy Kurtz on that show? Isn't she the older sister? That's sisters. Yeah, I'm talking once and again. Oh, this is post once again. Yeah, yeah. But Cela Ward, Billy McCormick, I think. Eric Stoltz was on it.

the guy who the guy who played the actor not the actor the actor the actor who played like the bad boy doctor on ER Shane West forget his name yeah Shane West anyway it was it was our Herskiewitsen's Wick Show the guys who made 30 something and it's just about families man and it was very emotionally true and interesting and good

and I feel like that would be a that would be a fun and interesting revisit a nice post-dinner kind of thing but not streaming so scratch that and And you know what I was going to suggest, but I thought you were going to is, Chris, where's the house discourse these days? It's on Peacock. It's right there for you. I've become so much of an SVU head that it's been a while since I've revisited house. But whenever I'm home, my mom usually has, like, an episode of house comes up once per day.

I love that show. And it's always Lupus, you know? It's always Lupus. That show was, again, like, I think. think that to look at shows like house in through a 2023 lens like there's a lot of things that don't make sense that don't really like jive with how we like how we watch things now but I almost feel it's underrated because it was such a beautifully designed machine it just ticked you know and the casting was so good and they came up with those stories week to week and it was

built around a star performance that was almost perverse right because we think of a star performance we're like, oh, what accent is Nicole Kidman going to do in this? But with House, they took Hugh Lurie, who is incredibly talented and quite famous in the UK and not super well known here. And he just made a choice and he did a thing. And he was a star from it, right? And then he was able to sort of step back because that's not him and he does 100 other things very well.

But a great show, a great show that I would revisit throw on every so often. Why not? Really good supporting cast, too, right? Omar Epps was on it. Robert Sean Loner, Jennifer Morrison, yeah. The great Jennifer Morrison, who's now a good TV director, and I believe, a avid listener of the watch. Hello, Jennifer Morrison.

Mm-hmm. Hello, Sam M.Smail, you know? Who else is listening? Who's out there? That's it. Andy, you mentioned this earlier that we often have a little bit of a challenge when it comes to talking about comedies

because we're not imagining enough to think beyond. That was really funny. I am a late convert to how-to with John Wilson, which is airing its third season now and I think put up its fourth episode of the third season. Third and final, buddy. I'm glad you got on board.

I tried texting my wife, who is Phoebe's still on the East Coast. And I was like, something just happened in this episode of John Wilson. I think it's in the third one. And I was like, I have to tell you about it. And I sent her a long text,

trying to explain. Was this the working out episode? I watched this. This is the episode where well, the episode with working out has... Let's describe the show for people who don't know, because we've talked about briefly, I think... I don't know how to describe it. It's a guy who asks a question at the beginning.

It's a... You do it. Yeah. So this guy John Wilson is a just almost obsessive documentarian who, for years, just filmed everything in his life in New York City, like minutia, everything. And then cobbled it together into these very, very unique almost love letters to his city and also to whatever this bizarre moment is, right?

And Nathan Fielder is executive producer of the show, and so now there have been three seasons. And each episode has a title, like the one you're talking about Chris was the third episode of the third season called How to Work Out. Yeah. And each episode is narrated first person,

POV by John Wilson, and usually his words are pair with really funny and surprising images or videos that he's taken on the streets of New York. And these things start with a very simple question. Like, one of my favorite episodes in the first season was about scaffolding. Like, why is there always scaffolding in New York? But they very quickly follow each detour down very bizarre rabbit holes. So that, like, there's one episode that is about many things, but also has the most,

the funniest and most interesting examination. of the Mandela effect that I've ever seen. And so this episode about working out is also a melancholy meditation on fame and whether we can ever actually be happy with what we want. And it's also about, you should probably take it. So there's a couple of different moments in this episode. One is when he goes to find a personal trainer

and he has some, you know, he's tried a couple of different people. and he finds somebody who was the personal trainer of one of the 9-11 bombers. Like a few of them. Who has written a book about it. And this is coming out of John Wilson attending a bodybuilding show that's like a charity event for 9-11. It's like a celebration of 9-11. It's like a 9-11 themed bodybuilding competition.

And John Wilson asks these guys who, you know, all respect to people and all the things that the multiplicity of life, but they look real strange. And they're also all like, I'm in, I'm in the throes of real depression because of how I have to live to make my body. And he's like, where were you at 9-11? The guy's like, oh, I was actually born in 2002, but my condolences, you know, to everyone affected by all of that. There's also like a whole subplot in this where he goes to a cat show to get his.

But are you going to say the best part? We are going to do the thing where we talk about what's funny, where he talks to the guy who trained, just like not trained them to do nine. 11. No, just like got them in shape. Yeah. And then he asked them, John Wilson asked this guy like, how did you feel when 9-11 happened? And he says proud. Proud because he was so committed to an idea. You don't have to agree with it. Yeah. He trains them well to accomplish their goals. A whole thing where he's trying to get his picture taken so he can have a before photo of before he starts working out. And he goes to a cat show because he thinks that he'll find a photographer there.

He gets scammed or something there and then winds up trying to talk. to a woman who writes cat detective fiction. And she's just like eventually tells him that she is not actually a detective. And can help him find his pictures. Which part were you texting Phoebe about? Well, I was texting him, her about how hard I was laughing about the guy who's goon capping. But keeps getting texts from work?

And his work keeps going. it's really it's special I want so my I'm sorry without everybody should watch it

I'm sorry it's not gonna keep going to keep going but I think that just to tie a bow around this I wish

winning time had a little how to in it I wish that there was a little bit of you think

that because it's been 180 seconds we need to check him with Jerry Bus and his new girlfriend and then go to Larry Bird

and then go to Jeannie Bus and then go back to Magic and then check in with Kareem. And just once, I'm like, can you guys just follow Pat Riley out and get a burrito? Look, yes, just show me something that's alive. Don't just, it's so, now this happened, this happened. We've got to get through this. But it's also emblematic, I think, of just a pretty screwed up medium at the moment, where we're just getting our prestige into our soft watches, you know,

like, it just doesn't, it's not, like, there's a lot of problems in this world and, like, extreme polarity and, you know, is one of them at the moment in America, but, like, it shouldn't be, it should, it, it, I, you know, I, look, I think that the GOP debate this week might help clarify my thoughts on this and make me feel better about the future. But I think that, I think I've said a version of this before, but, like, it shouldn't be one or the other. But, but this current, model of top-heavy okay stuff, like super-expensive okay stuff, and then, you know, really small niche stuff on the, on this, it's just, it doesn't feel sustainable. Maybe it's sustainable for HBO if every House of the Dragon pays for a how-to. Sure. But, but the long-term prospects of

their medium shows being as expensive as winning time or Last of Us, I, again, I'm not worried about Casey's checkbook or Zazlav's, whatever. But a little more suits would go a long way, clearly. And maybe that's the way to put it, you know. But I don't want to step on your very good observation that if Winning Time just had a little bit of space to follow its curiosity down one rabbit hole, it would be a lot better.

Like, do you remember, sorry, we're done. Podcast is over. You could stop listening. But, Chris, do you remember the scene that you love so much in season one of Winning Time, which is when Pat Riley was home. Yeah, with Chris. And Gillian Jacobs was his wife.

And they were sharing a cigarette and they just had like a moment of intimacy that felt like people who knew each other and were alive in this world and wanted things. That was basically written for me. It's like, what if Pat Riley was having a cigarette? But sure. What if? Imagine.

I'm sure there's no footage of that. But like, we haven't gone home with Pat Riley in a long time. It's just Adrian Brody currently being like, huh? What? And then he'll be coach. Take us home, Pat Riley. Today we were produced by Jack Sanders. Jack, thank you so much for filling in for Kaya.

Andy on Thursday's show, I see a little reservation dogs in our future, maybe some more deeper reads, a deeper dive into this season so far. I think so. And is Asoka? Asoka's out this week, great. Asoka coming. Yeah. Chris, you've recently rejoined a gym. Do you have a before photo that you'd like to talk about on this podcast?

I think it's the last 10 years of pods. You can tell what I'm doing to myself. Everybody's idea of how I look is how I look. You know what I mean? That's beautiful. So in the sense that like there's no one canonical version of you, like it's like your favorite character in a novel, right? Like there's...

Oh, yeah. Like when I think of Anton Sugar from No Contraful Man. There was no other fictional character. that I would go to when talking about you. Great. I think we did it today. I'm proud of us. Hey, good job by you today.

You know, you really pulled out some, you recommended Terriers, you gave some industry insight, and I think that we played within the lane lines today. I think every podcast that we do should end with a little self-reflection. We give each other scores. Are you mad that I didn't let you talk about played movies today? No, I'm not mad. I just feel like you're just, you know, I think you're feeling a little. embarrassed that you haven't watched Guardians the Galaxy Volume 3. I just feel I get that sense from you

that you're just because of your longstanding aversion. Well, I think I treat talking raccoons like I treat my plastic bottles of water. No, you have a history of frankly violence towards CGI animals and you're inured to their suffering. What if I told you that the CGI space otter is voiced by Linda Cardalini. And then when I googled it, it said it was voice and like mocapped by Linda Carderle. No, but how is that possible? She's Hawkeye's wife. Yes. Yes. You're not allowed to do that. Jim Gunn is allowed to do that. Is there an indication that like her soul has been uploaded from Mrs. Clint Barton to the soul of an otter? That is how I took it. That's the version of the movie that I watched. which was the high evolutionary loved the Hawkeye show on Disney Plus so much that he tried to create an entire planet of Barton's, but he put the Bartons inside animals.

That is, but you don't even get these references. You're just staring at me. You don't understand the moral quandary. Wait till we watch Asoka. I'm just going to be like, dude, what is this? I want to do all of Thursday's podcast about you being like, you're not allowed to do that. about Linda Cardellini's double-dipping in the NCEU. There should be roles.

Like, if she plays Mrs. Barton, she shouldn't be an otter as well. It's like, Vin Diesel's not in multiple, like, roles. All he does is voice at Treebark. But, Chris, you watch SVU, and by now you've noticed that sometimes a rapist is a defense attorney. Like, people cycle through those shows. And it's not just about second chances in the justice system. It's not the same character. Yes.

Yes. Right? I'm aware of that. I'm aware of that. Jim Gunn likes to work with who he likes to work with, you know. And so if there's a chance to voice a talking otter, you know he's going to give it to someone that he likes to work with. Shout, it's Jim Gunn, man. This guy's got to figure it out.

When Superman comes out, Linda Cardalini is a... Clark Kent. Thanks to Jack. Thanks to our listeners. We're back. We'll talk to you on Thursday.