The Watch - ‘Widow’s Bay’ Is One of Apple’s Boldest Swings Yet. Plus, ‘Top Chef’ Restaurant Wars.

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Laura Dern is replacing Helena Bonham Carter in ‘The White Lotus’ Season 4 (9:15), Yung Lean’s dazzling new music video (4:08), and the updated box office tracking of ‘The Mandalorian & Grogu’ (16:31). Then, they discuss the first two episodes of ‘Widow’s Bay,’ the Apple TV series starring Matthew Rhys, and highlight how the show seamlessly balances elements of horror and comedy (19:32). Later, they react to ‘Top Chef’ Season 23, Episode 8 (57:02). Finally, The Watch: After Dark (01:08:58). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Donald LoBianco Order and it will come. Like today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, looking for the next Martha's Vineyard, it's Andy Greenwald. I'm excited for today's show, kind of a genre zag.

It is a genre zag, especially from the Scarity Cat across from me here. Andy, we are going to be talking about Widows Bay, which is a new show on Apple TV. We're going to talk about Top Chef. We have a little bit of news at the top. We have a grab bag of popular culture that we're going to hit on from the world of movies and music and television. It's great to see you.

It's Thursday. We can keep, let our hair down if we have hair. Let it down. You want to unveil something? Yeah, my trip to Turkey. Is this time? It can't fucking work out. Can I ask you a quick question before we get into it?

Yeah. About podcasting? I, you know, as always, I am a dedicated follower of your appearances across the podcasting space. and I really was enjoying your appearance on the Bill Simmons podcast. Until? The other day. There's no book.

Okay. But I was, so you kindly went on the Bill Simmons podcast. You had an invitation to come on, I think, in the assumption that you would be there to be. So I will say this. Yeah. To Bill's credit. Yeah. I was on Bill Simmons's pod the other day.

Typically, I have gone on in humiliating moments in Philadelphia's sports. And sometimes it feels a little humiliating for me personally. Sure. That being said, days before Bill was. like, you haven't been on in the NBA playoffs, have you? And I was like, I have it. And then he hit me up on Tuesday and was like, are you around? I was supposed to do the mailbag with them that morning, I think. And instead came on for the night shift with late night house. Which is a great team. You guys are great together. I thought that you guys were going to suggest

some local, like, Kill Rockstars bands to be cheap halftime entertainment for the Trailblazer season. Did you get to the late part of the pod? I'm getting there. But here's my point. I want to bring this relevant. This is not just for the sports heads out there. So you came on feeling good about the Sixers had a really nice victory. And he wanted to talk about Derek White and how he was slightly disappointing. What is the TV equivalent of that? If I came on here and I was like, Chris, Beef Season 2 is everything I want in a TV show this year. And you were like, Ali Wong kind of didn't show up this year.

And I just kind of focused on what she was doing instead. Like, how could we do that for TV to each other? I don't mean to throw this back at you, but is it kind of like talking about you? for you without ever having watched you for you? Yes. However, now you're giving me ideas that what I could do instead is just talk about how I spent my Sunday nights in 2018 and 2021 or whenever the show came up. Yeah.

Made a nice dinner. I was wondering if you heard the greenwald bait at the end of that whole segment. I haven't made it there yet now. Okay. All right. There's something in there for you. There's a little Easter egg for me? Well, because I believe this argument started during the LA Confidential taping

that you were obviously a part of. But there has been this, like, this, like, rolling debate between me and Bill and others about REM versus the replacements. Oh, I heard that you touched on this. And I did... You heard? Yeah. Oh, like in the Washington Post? No, what I do is I talk to people who listen to the podcast.

I just have, like... Remember Varus on Game of Thrones? Like, I have a little army of... What did he call them? Little Birds? Master of Whispers. Yeah, I've got some podcast birds. Birds.

And a lot of the problem with this argument is that the parameters of the, what are we arguing about is not quite clear. Like, I can tell Bill wants to just say REMs better than the replacements, which he's more than welcome to say. But his point is more like, you guys think that the replacements were bigger, but REM was the biggest. And I'm like, I have no doubt. That's true.

I was there. That's objectively true. R.M. briefly, was the biggest band in the world. But I can imagine you are REM over replacements guy. this is a head versus heart thing. This is tough. You were one of the biggest R.M fans I know. REM is my gateway.

REM is my everything. Like, Ari, here's, you know, prior to this moment, I think the most revealing and nerdyest thing I've ever said about my own self-lorer on this podcast was talking about the Twin Peaks fanzine I made on dot matrix printers in my middle school. It's nice that you think that's the nerdiest thing you've said on this podcast, but that's okay.

About my past. Everything since then, when you were watching Euphoria is fair game. My best friend, Lara and I, were so into REM in like 1990 that we made our parents take us to Athens, Georgia. We begged to have a spring break trip to Athens, Georgia, just to be in the town they were from. And I believe, unconfirmed 30 plus years later, I believe maybe we met their manager's mother.

Oh, that's nice. How did you do that? Did you walk around Athens? being like, R.A.M! R.m., please come out! I mean, you know, you have to do it more in code, you know? You have to sort of do, like, sing little scraps of song, Song, H, like into bushes, and then maybe some people would come out.

No, I was like, you know, you would, one had read in a magazine that, like, Michael Stipe enjoyed the vegetarian hot dog. You just drove down 995 to Athens, Georgia? No, we flew. We flew in an airplane. Must be nice. Yeah, it was, listen, the economics were different then. You know what I mean? a family of four could take a trip to a college town

without bankrupting the whole year. Were you doing it under the auspice of an early college visit? That was 13. There would be... No, no, it was purely, I can't believe this. Like now I'm on the other side of this. And if my children were like, please, please take us to the home of the creator

of the amazing digital circus, the weird cartoon that's on Netflix, I would say, I would say, who's this? Why are you texting me? But they, but my, our moms took us on this trip to do relatively nothing. If I, if Faust came to me, you know, is Faust the guy they devil makes a deal with or is Faust? I think if Faus came to you, he'd be like, don't take the deal.

Okay. If I was offered a devil's deal where I had to do something terrible, but I got to know. Yeah. What your life would have been like if you would attended the University of Georgia. First of all, drafted by Howie Roseman. I would have been a 11th year senior water boy. Still have eligibility. Still have some eligibility left.

No, but to your question. Redshirting for anxiety every year. Any redshirt for anxiety? I'm sure. Now you can. Can I do it right now? Because I feel a little exposed. So R.M. was like my gateway drug to all indie music and was my favorite band when I was a kid.

And then from there, I went to other places, including discontagogy. covering the replacements, who became much more important to me, like high school and to college. Okay. So I kind of can't do it. But if the argument is who is objectively bigger, it's unquestionably REM. But the replacement's whole, the reason we love them is because they were so self-defeating and such a giant mess. Yeah, I think also there was like a definitive cutoff way where R.E.M. obviously stopped

touring. Bill Berry left the band. They made like one or two more records after Bill Berry, even without Bill Berry. They continue to make records and tour for 14 more years. well I guess I got my facts wrong there but I just was there was something about like the but that moment that was the end of the had a little bit more like mythology not mythology

like there was a little bit more like do you think they'll ever get back together do you think they'll ever tour again and then they did and then they did did you go to that show I didn't but I'm not actually a big reunion show guy you just I you know what I was doing at that moment I was slowly pulling in the high ground

like I just won a big handed poker and you just yanked the tablecloths that's not that I just I think of the reunion shows that I've seen. Yeah. Mission of Burm is still by far the best. Cool. Do you go to the My Bloody Valentine show?

No. I think that I have structural damage still to my sternum. Wait, which era? At Roseland, like, I don't know, 15, 16 years ago. No, I didn't. Do you still have, like, bad hearing because of that? Huh? Sorry?

I felt it in my bones. This is, by the way, we haven't had, like, a meeting with the higher-ups since Sweden recently, but I imagine this is doing numbers. What we're talking about in the beginning? I think it's okay to open with like a little bit of chatter. That's my, as an executive producer, so are you in House on the, is your point that like you like the replacements more

or they've lasted longer? Bill was sort of trying to say like, I have great music taste and House and I were, I think, a little bit rejecting that. House also referenced minor threat in Fugazi. Hell yeah. Which I think might be the first time those bands have come up on any of Bill's podcasts and in the 20 years he's been doing it or whatever.

I think the words minor and the words threat have appeared. They might be like Franz Wagner is a minor threat to get 18 points tonight. That's what I'm saying. But I mean the ban minor threat. Let's talk a little bit about... The Chicago front office strategy is Fugazi right now. How is that? That's right.

See, I can do it. There is no front office. Okay. Okay, there's not a lot of TV news this week. There's some culture news. We could do this, which is Laura Dern is replacing Helena Bonham Carter. We talked about that on Monday on White Lotus. Laura Dern replacing Helena Bonham Carter

Graham Platiner replacing Janet Mills Who you got I'm not replacing her She just ran out of dough Yeah well That's what happens when you run up against socialist All of those small donations You know

That's how I get by Every guy gives me a buck Yeah Every guy who sees you Yeah awesome That's great Laura Dern Mike White Reunited

Here's the question Is you know The White Lotus The Natasha Rothwell character The Jennifer Coolidge character obviously connective tissues through multiple seasons. Laura Dern voice acted in season two. Oh, yeah.

As Dominic de Grasso is Michael Imperialiolioli's character's wife. Do you think Mike White got in his bag and was like, she's coming to France? I think that's an option. That's a very cool idea. That hadn't occurred to me. I mean, there's something about the immediacy with which this happened, you know, And if you were like, I have to create a whole new character at a whole cloth and why they're here and what their role is, because it did sound like he was like, we're scrapping that character.

Don't you think it's a little bit like when we needed a first guest for Stick the Landing and somehow you got the call? Was I first? Well, on our list, yeah. Oh. We actually changed the scheduling a little bit, so you didn't, you know, we don't want to get to. Behind the scene stuff. But, you know what I mean? Like, Laura, they clearly have a deep connection and creative relationship.

So under the circumstances that they are. currently filming. And that was an easy call to make. I think what's interesting is, what you said is the most interesting thing. Slightly below that was just in the release that he was writing an entirely new character for her, which suggested, like,

I lazily assumed that that character was in some way connected to Steve Coogan's character. Like maybe they were a couple. Two Brits. My other favorite thing is the White Lotus is like Normy famous now in the way that, like, I saw there were tabloid photos

of like Helena Bonham Carter in first photos since Shock White Lotus exit and it just looks like Helena Bonham Carter. What periodical was this? The Tatler? I don't know.

The Atlantic. The Atlantic. It was a Daily Mail? I mean, I saw this on the internet's front page Reddit, but like she's just, she just looks like Helena Bonham Carter. Sure.

She's probably just like going to Pratt, you know? Genuinely so. But she did not look particularly troubled or different? Yeah. That's cool. That'll be interesting of the Daily Mail and the New York Post

and whatever gets involved with like set photos of White Lotus if it's achieved that status, I'm sure it actually has. You don't want to be in that paper. It's never a good thing if you show up in the New York Post. I'm trying to think the alternative of that. Like if you hit a game winning home run

for the Mets. Yes, that's possible. Right. Is that possible? Come on, don't tempt feet. Nine times out of ten, if you're in the New York Post, it's a bad thing. Yeah, I think that's right. That's right. Have you ever been in the New York Post?

Kind of. I think I appeared in a story that my wife was wrote in like 2002, 2003. Was it about Subway Surferers? No, honestly, it was about the smoking ban and whether it was still being enforced. Oh, yeah. And so. You mean like 2002? Whenever it was new. Mike kicked it in.

When did you do that? So you're saying it was like on the heels of the band. I feel like he let us smoke after 9-11 for a little while. When did he ban cigarettes? No, is Giuliani through 9-11? Yeah. And then Bloomberg comes in and... No, no, we... That was... And the backdrop of 9-11 was the mayoral election.

That's right. You know? Well, I just remember Rudy at Yankee Stadium. Mark Green would have let you keep smoking, probably. Was he another candidate? He was the presumptive next mayor of New York until 9-11 happened. And then Giuliani was like, I got to stay mayor. Oh, right.

You're such a custodian of New York political history. I think it's important. Okay, so we have the Laura Dern thing. I'm sorry, were you pro or con in feet? article. I was, no, I did research.

I like, help her. Yeah, you did. What were the places you went to see if they were going to? We were up on like the upper east side and it was like going to different bars and I, like we all,

we kind of like split up 25 bars, which in New York is like three blocks and you, that's rookie numbers. And you just walk in. Yeah. And you'd say to the bartender like, you'd have it, you'd order,

you have to order something and then you'd be like, oh no, wait, you had to get a drink too? Are we allowed to smoke? And, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't expose them,

but you'd, But you would be like, percentage-wise, you know, in this sample size, like, this is how many people are still letting you smoke. Are you willing to do that again? I don't think anybody would let me do it, especially not out here. All they care about is wellness. Would you try that? No, I mean, there's, I don't really smoke that much. Don't, the legend is better than reality.

I don't know how to segue to this. You don't want us to talk about a music video. Oh, I just thought it was great. Can you set it up a little bit? I didn't have in front of me, but like, this is, no, Young-Leans video. Swedish rapper turned crooner, I guess, in some ways. Young Lean. Multi-talented fellow.

He did a song with a, I think, producers named Generation. Sure. Or producer, I'm sorry, I don't know. And he put out like a two-part epic single. And Romaine Gawras. That's your man. I like his filmmaking quite a bit. Is he Costa's son?

He did. He is. Is that an EPO baby to you? Sure, he's out. Okay. It's heavily influenced by Tosciaki Toyota's

Blue Spring, which a Japanese film a while ago. It's basically about a bunch of prep school kids beating the shit out of each other and treating each other terribly. But in this Younglein video, there's like a last 14 second mark. A coda, like a kind of four or five minute endpoint where it's just got this incredible choreography and you texted me last night.

I mean, I did it. about it. I was partly joking that we should talk about that as a main text. She didn't say I'm joking. You said, let's talk about this tomorrow. That's probably, that does sound like me. You got me. That's my classic straight down the middle. This has become quite a big thing on the internet though. Yeah, I just thought, I mean, it just filled me with joy because choreography is the best special effect in the world. And it was incredible to see something. It just felt really exciting to, of all the things that are thrown at us and like all these harrowing images of Helen and Bonham Carter shopping untroubled by being fired from a television

show to see something that was so viscerally thrilling, exhilarating, shocking, new, magnetic, and it's just, it's just dancing. And it's an incredible one shot. And we can still make stuff. And that's pretty much where I was at with it. I thought it was beautiful. I thought it was fabulous filmmaking. And I also just like really love it like every couple of years, maybe every year. you get an example of the music video is like a still really viable form which is really cool and the pod's called the watch we tell people what to watch

they should watch this or we just say what we've watched yeah but like I think people draft off us you know like they're like where can we go that these guys have been I think they use us a couple other pods and they make a consensus big board and then they watch what they want to watch

should we get to the main event today you're being very silent on the mando and grogu numbers talk to me about them no I got nothing they're just like it hit tracking and it's now projected to make $80 million over Memorial Day weekend, which is quite a large amount of money. I guess like in retrospect,

I don't know what I thought would be a, I did not think that this movie was going to perform out to expectations. I may be, I would very curious to see if it gets over what is, I think, consider the Star Wars Mendoza line, which is Solo's box office numbers. I think the argument that they are going to make,

which I think will be interesting to watch the spin, will be, we didn't spend that much on this. And ha ha, we got you to watch a TV show in the movie theater. They won't add the ha-ha part. That's me editorializing.

But there will be an enormous amount of spin on background and on foreground and on foreground saying, this is actually a different... You dummies don't get it. This is a different strategy. Because it's a part of a huge, like, multi-platform storytelling initiative?

No, that we just didn't spend very much money on this. And so we spend more in marketing and the number we got to is profitable for us. Whereas, even if it makes the exact same amount of, and I would believe this, this isn't necessarily spin. If it makes the exact same amount of money as Solo, I would imagine this movie is going to be more profitable because Solo was a famously tortured development process in which the director was replaced. Directors were replaced

like two-thirds of the way through. That was going to lose money regardless to a degree that we probably will never know the full extent of. Whereas this maybe it won't, but all of that is them spinning the fact that this kind of just looks like a Verizon commercial. Is there any interest in your household in seeing this? None. But they also have no interest in Star Wars. Right. Maybe they were just like Grogo's cute. No, no, no interest in Star Wars,

no interest in Harry Potter. It's weird the way that they're uninterested in specific properties. R.E.M. That their father couldn't care less. One day we'll figure out what the common denominator is. Yeah, I mean, the anticipation for this, I think I've gone from like, I won't be seeing this to like,

I'll see this out of professional obligation. suppose. Yeah, all right. But... Does that mean Sean begged you to see it? No, nobody begged me to do anything.

I mean, it's just nobody does. I mean, it's not like anybody's just like, please see Mando. Josh tomorrow on the phone. It's either I'm going to have to cut

1,300 more jobs if you don't go see Mando. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something?

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Terms apply. All right, let's get to the main thing, because this is an exciting... It is. We are not stalling. Widows Bay is a new show that's on. Apple TV, the first two episodes are already up, although I believe the listed release date was the 29th. I think it went up maybe a little early. Maybe I don't know how to really read release dates. It's created by Katie Dippold, who is a pretty accomplished screenwriter who did a pretty hilarious Sandra Bullock, Melissa McCarthy movie that he worked on the Ghostbusters reboot, worked on Parks and Rec.

And it's responsible for one of the greatest tweets of all time. You were the key master of social media. You tell me. remembering the time that I dressed, my friends were having a Halloween party and I dressed up as the Babadook and it was really more of an adults drinking wine situation. And isn't there a picture of her dressed as the Babadook with everybody else's dressed normally? Lives rent free in my head forever. And weirdly, that tweet, I think, is more relevant to this show than some of her other credits. So it's created the first episode written by Katie Dippold and then it's directed by, I think in its entirety? Not in its entirety.

But, you know, it's Hero Moray, the Great Hero Moray. Atlanta. Mr. Mrs. Smith, Station 11. But the other, but the other directors on this are Andrew DeYoung, who did friendship and works with Tim Robinson, T. West, who I think has done some. Ty West has done some films that you have seen, and I have not. Yes. Hero did, I believe, five of the ten.

The log line for this is, quote, a skeptical mayor of a New England town refuses to bow to the superstitions of the residents who claim that the place is cursed. It stars Matthew Reese, a pod favorite. Mayor Tom Loftus. K. O. Flynn, now a watch favorite, who plays his colleague, Patricia, in City Hall. She's a British West End favorite. And was in a show that I loved a lot

called My Lady Jane from about two years ago. Yeah, and she's fantastic in that. And then it has basically a that guy, character, actor, all-star team. Take the cast conversation, put it down the road a minute, because I can't wait to talk about that. This show is awesome.

Yes. These first two episodes are fantastic. I think this is the best use of Apple's money because I think looks like they bought a town like they bought an island. Yes. Yes. That I've seen since the iPhone 14. The MacBook Neo is pretty cool.

I saw it in the store the other day. No, this is what I, this is what I want Apple tweet TV to be doing more of and to be trying more of. And when you see what Katie DiPold and Hero Mirai do with the first two episodes, you're going to be like, Why does everything else look like and feel like what it looks like and feels like?

And why is everything else written the way that it's, like, I think this is phenomenal. This is, we are suddenly in the clover here because I love Beef Season 2 and I think this show is astounding. Like I, this is going to mean something to you. I watched the pilot twice. Did you? I don't watch anything twice. That Young Lean video, I barely remember it. I think this shit.

You should start sending me like 18. things you want to talk about on the podcast and then be like, oh, I wasn't serious about hockey. Hockey's the one thing I don't text you 18 times a day about. That was cherry picking. I text you constantly. I thought this was just like a revelatory and joyful experience. And one of the places we should start, and I want to get in the weeds with it because all of the small details are so expert. And it's not just the production values of where it's shot. It's the filters on the cameras that heroes using to make it look and feel a certain way with such taste and asceticism and specificity. But also in watching the pilot, what I was finding myself

admiring so deeply was the very, very classy and subtle ways and efficient ways that Widows Bay achieves exposition, where in the flurry of action that opened the show in the first six or seven minutes, there's a phone call to the police chief, who's another one of these great Mount Rushmore or that guys. It's Kevin Carroll, who we loved on the leftovers. And in their first interaction, Kevin Carroll's chief of police says, why are you mayor of this town if you hate everyone in it? And it's just another little brick to build a character in the flow of the show. But the biggest thing we have to talk about, I'm sorry to cut you off, is the fact that this show walks a genre tightrope that I did not believe to be possible. It is possible. But you have to

educate me on this. So this show mixes comedy and horror. And there are comedies that have scary moments and there are horror movies that have funny moments, but blending the two genres seamlessly is difficult. I'll give you a couple of examples that I think did it well. Cabin in the woods. I think you could make the argument that there are elements of Scream, the Scream franchise that were they indulge in like a kind of meta horror comedy that like where there. Awareness of the tropes. Yeah, commenting on what's happening. Fright Night. I mean, there's plenty of examples. I like Fright Night. People might even consider Ghostbusters to be like a little bit of a comedy horror, although I don't think it's like super scary.

I mean, it's a library scene. Yeah, but it's a difficult thing to pull off because it's, if you're being funny when you're being scared, you wind up either not being funny or deflating the fear. Just deflating the scares. And I think sometimes it can be a pressure valve release for people, but like for the most part when it comes to horror, I like it treated fairly seriously. Like I want to lose myself in the moment and really feel like. what's happening on screen could or is happening.

You know, it's like, that's part of the joy of it is the visceral kind of like present tense of it. Not to muddy the waters, but you had me watch the Resident Evil trailer just a moment ago. And I will not be seeing the film, but I was able to admire exactly what you're saying in that trailer. It's fucking intense. It was intense and it was visceral. And there was seemingly as much attention paid to like the physicality of like bodies dropping or tentacle, like whatever, it is. in reality. So what you see and feel visually

is incredibly captivating and present. If the main character of Resident Evil in the trailer, like did a Jim Halpert face to the camera, it would definitely make me relax more and it would undercut the whole point of it. And this show is not, that's not what Widows Bay does. So what the path that it chooses feels unique to me and quite artful.

Yeah, and I would say that most of the comic moments or the punchlines in this or the comedy moments are very situational so far. So they are not glib kind of mugging everybody's sort of talking like their James Gunn characters

kind of comedy. It's everything is about like there's a specific character that Matthew Reese is playing and he has very specific people working around him and all the comedy becomes out of character. All the comedy comes out of like

this guy's like this, this woman is like this and there's like these funny interactions that they have. But on top of that is the possibility that these people are all living in like a Stephen King nightmare where there's fog rolling in,

there could be zombies, whatever, what have you. I joked about the tweet. Parks and Rec is a huge, huge, huge foundational piece for the show. What should we call this Parks and Rich? What should we do? We can workshop that. The point being,

I would say Parks and Rec and the Treehouse of Horror episodes of the Simpsons. Paranormal in Rec? Let's keep going. Yeah. This is a safe space. And we can always ask them to cut our bad ideas. Right, guys?

No. The town of Widows Bay is a, or the island of Widows Bay. It is somewhere in New England. I thought it was like Massachusetts-esque. It might be Maine adjace. But it is a island that has not been discovered, has not become, it has not gone viral for its aesthetics. It is not a vacation hub. It is not really anything.

And the mayor, Tom Loftus played brilliantly by Matthew Rees, again, like the casting, get someone who can be a compelling emotional actor, but also knows his way around a joke. He is essentially the mayor Leslie Knope of this town who wants what's best for everyone, even if they don't agree with him. And he is very motivated to publicize this place and bring it, kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Among the things keeping it in the early part of the 20th century is that there is no cell phone service, there is no Wi-Fi, it is all connected by landlines, everybody knows each other. etc., etc. In the first moment, you are introduced to this absolutely wonderful

rogues gallery of locals who have quirks in the way that aren't, again, not making fun of people, but it's just a familiar type of single cam comedy

that we've encountered before. And then on the third level, there's also this deep, deep bench of fake history where there are funny headlines, like the way there used to be murals in Parks and Rec. And there's even funny paintings

that used to be murals murals and parks and rec. like, you know, about a dead man found by horse and things like that. Yes. So it's... Precedent by whale. It is elevated and it's funny. But what's incredible about the turn, and I did want to talk to you about my ability to just

not only watch and endure things that are scary, but just love them, was that the show understands something that I think maybe you do, too, as a fan of the genre, that, like, the emotional line between laughing and hysteria and crying out. out in shock or fear, it's not that much distance between those two emotional responses. Here was talked about that in interviews. So there is that kind of like hysteria, literally, that can veer from one to the other relatively quickly. And it's just on that line in a way that feels really, really natural to the piece and really captivating because I was like, man, we can, I'm not joking. The reason I

I sang of the Young Lean video was, I was like, look, I've just watched Widows Bay and now I've watched this and we can still do stuff. Yeah. The old stuff still works if you recombine it in a new form. I think you're absolutely right. There's also a really good, they're playing some cool tricks. You're right. The cell phone thing is a very slick way of saying you can't ask the questions of why

won't they just text each other to say, don't go into the fog is coming. Yeah, right. So now you've got like a kind of 90s, 80s sort of level of like, communications with people. There also are, you were speaking about the exposition. We're not doing exposition dumps, though. There are exposition hints.

Yeah. So there is, for instance, Stephen Root, well, again, another, like, you guys got Stephen Root, this is going to be watchable. Stephen Root plays a very agitated old-timer, who is the antagonist of the mayor,

Tom Lofteson, may have been a mayor himself at some point. It plays a guy named Wick, I believe. and he is insisting that the island has quote awoken because there was an earthquake as the episode opens or as the season opens there's an earthquake and that this island has now got like kind of like a curse that's been activated by this earthquake

and that there will be things that happen over the next couple of days that like to portend for really bad shit coming but the way he kind of puts these breadcrumbs out is not in an annoying like oh so let me guess I have to watch like four hours of this before we get to an answer about this. Like you can kind of tell there is an old wives tale about this island that nobody who's born there is allowed to leave. And then if they do leave, they die relatively quickly after reaching mainland.

And there's something going on with Tom Loftus's family where the mother is not there. We don't know where she is. And the son, who is natural native to the island, Tom Loftus was born off the island, but summered there. his son was born on the island and his son is a little bit of a juvenile delinquent but there is obviously a motivating fear

but also drive on the part of the mayor to be like is this old wife's tale is this piece of folklore true and is my son ever going to be allowed to leave this island and he says he has but I don't think I did not believe him and if he did I imagine it was quick

you know or something like that and it just produces an anxiety around it. And I love, you know, look, we all grew up with run past that house, don't walk. And hold your breath by the graveyard. Yeah, just like all sorts of little like old wives tales that we probably adhere to longer in our lives than we even admit. And some people still do to this day, you know, like some people don't like walking over cracks in the sidewalk. Some people, you know, it doesn't matter. But the show really effectively plays on that psychology.

And it's like, do I really want to find out whether my cynicism is going to get me killed? So it's really, really, really effective in that way. I found... I'm trying to think of a comp for what Matthew Reese is doing in this. First of all, let's just take a second to admire what he has done over the last 10 years, right? So you got the Americans, one of your favorite shows. We were big fans of Perry Mason. I was a very big fan of him in Beast and Me.

Oh, yeah. I was a fan of him and Beast in Me. And those are several different performances. Yep. He has kind of, I would say, always got a degree of, a kind of suave literacy to his performances and to his characters.

This is another guy. This is another kind of color for him. And he is playing point guard in this show because he's got 10, 11 people to pass to any given moment. You know, he's the star presumed innocent. since season two also. I did not know that. Like there's a scene in the second episode

where he has a long interaction with Tim Balls from Righteous Jumpstones. Just the names we're saying. I'm going to say them all in once at some point, but yeah. It's the ingenious invention of this show is to just like put a very, very, very competent leading man in moments where he's throwing passes

to the best character actors that Hollywood has, that TV has. I mean, what were some of your favorite supporting performances? Well, I want to get into that, but I just think you're right to point out. Like, what Reese is doing is astonishing and you understand why the town loves him, even though he is not super famous, because there aren't many people who can do what he can do. The type of performance he's giving is this, like, fever dream combination of Ted Danson and Steve Carell. It's very good.

In that, like, you are a talented actor who has some charisma, gravitas suavidity charm, but you can get down in it and you can laugh too. And also you can become hysterical, you know, but there's a generosity of it where he just seems to be enjoying

the note that he's being asked, the notes he's being asked to play while everyone else gets just like, you know, hit the laugh button time and time again. So Cato Flynn is amazing. She's hysterical. As Patricia, who, like, when the plot of the pilot

is that a New York Times reporter, played by another icon of this podcast, a actor we love, Bashir Salahuddin from South Side and Top Gun Maverick, plays a, what a CV, plays a New York Times journalist who's, you know, it's Tom's dream to have the Times write about the island. And he just needs him to say this is the next Martha's Vineyard

and like the entire fortune of the island is going to change. And we're introduced very quickly to the idea that this is a place that's resisting the outside world and because of that, the infrastructure of the town is kind of falling apart. Patricia, the first thing she asked Tom about the reporter is, did you tell him about my paintings?

Kevin Carroll, we mentioned from the leftovers. Dale Dickie as Rosemary and Office Associate. And gossip. Town of gossip. You won't recognize her name, but you will recognize her face and her voice almost instantly. Next to her in the office is Jeff Hiller, who won an Emmy for somebody somewhere and was just on Pluribus.

Stephen Root. Evan, Tom's son, is played by Kingston Rumi Southwick, who was the son on presumed innocent season one. That presumed innocent coaching tree, really? It's giving. His sister was Chase Infinity in that. I mean, remarkable, remarkable stuff. Nancy Lennahan, who was just brilliant and funny

in limited minutes on the paper, is Jerry, Tim Baltz from Righteous Gemstones. The bald guy in the band from Righteous Gemstones is one of the guys on the island. Neil Casey, he was a funny actor, who was in the Ghostbusters reboot. The great Toby Huss from Haldon Catch Fire

as the reverend. Like, the thing that I'm trying to communicate is not how amazing these people are. And it's not even like what Katie and Hero have done here is like a dream of like anybody who has the opportunity to make television. These are the people you want to give jobs to and you want to work with because they make everything better and how fun would it be to be on an island with all these creative people. It's that they came into this with the strength of material, strength of point of view, to tell Apple what's best. Now, it's not fair to suggest that,

like any one streamer or network is monolithic and that there's some like internal pushback to good ideas or interesting casting. But if you don't come in as the creator with a backbone and a point of view and some institutional or historical reputational muscle, you are going to get moved off your square in the margins. And in the margins, I mean like, I don't know what the arc is for Patricia and for Tom. But in a traditional sitcom, that's the couple that's going to happen. And once that's maybe the possibility, which I don't know if it is, and I don't know if I would want it to be. Cato Flynn is the person who will get like the respectful nods in the meetings,

but won't get the part. Everyone, it seems like, that they wanted got the part in a way that feels cohesive. And it's the same way with like, what would this show be if they hadn't filmed on location somewhere in Massachusetts? Sure. It's not half the show that it is. Look, I am not going to comp it to shows that don't do this well, but I can think of a dozen off the top of my head

where when you're watching, you're like, nobody here chose their outfit. No character woke up in the morning and put their clothes on. You're onto something. And in this show, it's briefly mentioned that Tom was coming to the island

as kind of like a rich kid from the mainland, right? Like he would come and hang out with the townies but like always got to go back to his nice life. and while this has kind of been brought up I noticed like how Tom was dressed which is kind of like Jay crew spring summer like well put together

nice pair of jeans button down tucked in blazer and you know he's being very earnest like he seems like he wants the best for the island but you're right like the way you communicate difference can be in whether a guy tucks a shirt in or not

or what kind of print he wears how the quarter of a jacket fits him or doesn't. Exactly. And it's like a guy who has like three really good outfits, you know, and everybody else is kind of like I'm wearing a rain slicker or like I, I'm still allowed to smoke indoors, you know? I thought of you. Yeah. And it's just an attention to detail that I associate with hero Marai stuff. And that I think it's easy in TV to kind of be like, here's the scripts, here's the set, put them in beige or gray

and have them talk. And you can get much deeper than that. And these episodes are about 38 to 45 minutes long, which I think I am going to keep banging this drum that that makes a huge difference. It's a sweet spot. And you can just see that there's like a real depth of vision and artistry going on

in like all the departments. So I want to talk about briefly one other small triumph in this show that we clearly love. I can't wait to watch more. The first episode, the pilot, works brilliantly and does something that surprised me in this day and age, which is it walks us to the precipice of what the show is about and then pulls it back. Smart, smart TV making. There's more road ahead. Let's enjoy it. And then when it does something even more remarkable, even in this day and age of changing production models and things, second episodes are still a bear. Second episodes,

despite the fact that we are not in the other than the pit, we're not in the let's turn it out, keep it going production model that we used to be in, that caused the reputation of second episodes to dip in which it was like people's second albums, like you have a lifetime to make the first, then you have two weeks to make the second. So the second episodes are generally the pilot again

while you find your footing with a new group of people in writer's room. Second episode of Widows Bay is a completely different look into the show. It's a haunted house episode. And every moment is, packed with the kind of detail and possibility that you're describing. It gives us the show's first, I believe, genuine jump scare and horror moment.

Well, it's also like a real taste of the supernatural. Yes. But within it, it also has some of the more two-episode sample size, elite jokes thus far, like when spending a night in the local inn in advance of the tourists coming as a dare. Well, to prove it's not haunted. To prove it's not haunted. Tom is there at the honor bar and then he looks at like, he opens the cabinet that all B&Bs have of like Dick Foll.

Francis paperbacks and like self-help books and board games. And the board games that he finds include Daddy's Home, which he plays later. And then two looking like small box, like Uno card games. One is called teeth. And inside of it is just like a teeth extracting wrench. And then the other one is called run. And it is a deck of cards that he flips through. It says, don't run.

It says, not yet, not yet, not yet. Not yet, not yet, run. I will carry the beauty of these jokes with me for quite some time. When this show was first sort of getting promoted, they did so with a VHS quality, I guess, like, travel ad for the island from earlier, like, from decades ago. And it was, you know, like a guy basically standing on a rocky beach being like, welcome to Widow's Bay, like, come along.

And then, like, the guy walks away, but the camera doesn't mean. move and it has a real like a little bit of a Twin Peaks vibe to it the thing that the second episode made me think of about the viability and maybe perhaps the legs of this show and with Apple as as foundation

and silo and many other shows and season five of waiting for all mankind they will let you to finish the story so the second episode though I was like is this X-Files could they do like Monster of the Week,

but we're never quite sure if it was real or not. Because it is not, as the first episode implies, oh, it's not a zombie show. It's not like one thing is happening to this island. This island is fucking weird. And weird stuff happens here,

much like, you know, funny heartwarming stuff happens in Pawnee. Yeah. And that's engaging, but it's also viable for long term if you have that kind of creative grip on what the thing is that you want to do.

The thrill of the second episode actually came early on, before any of the scares come is I realized that much of my chagrin that the New York Times writer had left because I love the character and I love the actor. Yes. But it took away any kind of like false time frame or anything where it was like, we have to solve all of this so that this guy when he leaves the island will write well about us.

It's like, no, he's already left. We're okay now, but we're not. You know, and it's really cool when a show is like, why don't we do like each episode has its own vibe rather than each episode is essentially people coming back and forth and talking to each other. And then there's like a false cliffhanger at the end, but we're only doing this over the course of three days or whatever. That's where I see the other two influences that I would throw in there. We talked about Parks and Rec a lot clearly. But Mike Scher, who is Katie DiPold's boss on Parks and Rec, is the reigning champion of classic sitcom. that have a little bit of the wire-esque mutability and serialization.

Enough to engage modern audiences, but enough of the old stuff, too, to keep things a little bit lighter and make it so that these shows don't sink under the weight of their own plot or premise. The other show that I was going to throw out there is, do you remember the third day? Yeah, of course.

Third day was a pandemic. Did we ever watch the live episode? The live episode. So this was a pandemic era, HBO, co-pro, experiment starring Jude Law made by essentially experimental theater people and directors that at the midpoint of the season

there was a day long theatrical happening that was live streamed that in some way advanced the plot. Did we spend our day doing that? I mean it was the pandemic. I read the Magic Mountain for sport. I probably did watch it. But kind of. It's pretty good.

But not Dr. Faustus, clearly though. in terms of my, you know, Thomas Mon knowledge. I guess I just never really thought about is Faust, the guy, Faust is the guy who makes the deal, or Faust is what they call the devil? No.

Gotcha. Yeah, the devil's like, doctor, you know what I mean? He's like, please, call me Faust. I believe that's the translation from German. You and I are friends. Let's talk. What do you want, Faust?

The, anyway, it's a tough watch that show, but it was engaging. And I wonder, I want to ask if we get the chance, Hero and Katie, if they ever watched that show

because there is an element of things don't work the same here. And are you trapped here? I don't know. Are you? Yeah. The kind of like, brinksmanship

in terms of like, how far is this thing really going to go that was very engaging on that show too because there was a mania to it and a creative, like full creative commitment to the bit. The,

uh, you know, the font of the title card is, it'll make you think of Stephen King, but it's not explicitly Stephen King font. And I guess I would leave it there, which is that there are some things that, like, wear their influences on their sleeve or, in fact, lead with their influences

in order to, like, kind of create a mood board for it. And I'm sure that they did that here. But it was just different enough where I was like, cool font. Look, the... Cool show, you know? The story of, or the agony of influence in our contemporary era is, I think, a divide between the properties and projects that are just clearly attempts to recreate entertainment from the creator's childhood.

Sure. Versus ones that are like, I was raised in a circulating bath of Amblin and Spielberg and 80s, you know, Ghostbusters, and that informed who I am, and now I'm going to do this with it. And to my mind, the most successful things, do that, you know? I'm actually curious, like, what I just described,

which category do you think Stranger Things falls into? You watch the whole thing. Well, by the end of it... I'm not trying to take a shot, I'm just curious. I think you'd probably be surprised, but still, like, bored by the fact that it turned into, like, James Cameron at the end.

Also 80s. Yeah, but it is essentially, like, closer to Terminator and Terminator 2 and almost like the never-ending story and like, you know, sci-fi epics. It's all in a blender. Yeah, whereas the first couple of seasons

are very much rooted in like Goonies and and that kind of thing. I think that's it for Widows Bay for me. I mean, like, I honestly don't have any critiques of it. I don't, I loved it. I didn't really have like, everything that like my brain would be like,

oh, let me guess you're not going to tell us like why this. I was like, no, this is like really working. And I think part of it is the runtime, the pace, and the production is just so fun to be in that you're not really sweating the, like, the little things. Look at us. This is the Predator Handshake meme of comedy fan and horror fan. Well, I'm curious because, you know, I think we were probably like mixed towards not happy about

Margot's Got Money Troubles. And I cannot say that I'm looking forward to the revival of Ted Lasso. There's a couple of sci-fi shows that Apple. has like obviously for all mankind Silas coming back. I think they'll do the last I think they're ending foundation now. I don't even know if it's being promoted or not. I don't know. But this

Star City, which we talked about glowingly at least its trailer last week and maximum pleasure guaranteed which is coming soon with Tadiana Mizlani which looks pretty gritty. And friend of the pod, Jake Johnson. Yeah. And looks like kind of a provocative, interesting

modern thriller. I'm kind of curious what they're doing over there. I think what I was saying before is probably fodder for a larger conversation about the state of the streamers. Like Apple has so much money and its goals are so wide that you kind of can't make a declaration about what they are doing or not doing. They are essentially doing almost everything. And I think that I would love to get under the hood and try to understand what's working for them what's working for audiences and where any disconnects may have been in the creative process. Because for whatever problems we had with Margot's got money troubles, we are in the minority,

I think. People just like casually like industry, not industry, people are really enjoying it. And I think it's because it is, you know, like from the production design to the performances, like it's really, really well made. That strikes me as something that is meeting its goals, you know, what it was set out to do. And if the vibe of the story of the book didn't work for us, then that's not necessarily the adapter's problem. I think that we've seen other examples of Apple shows where it feels like someone nodded off at the wheel on one side of it or another

in terms of the notes they were or were not giving or in terms of just like the unfettered... Maybe just like how production worked out. Like, stuff didn't come together, yeah. But not everything good. Like when you think, when we talk about like the famous development processes of like these, the two remaining titans of like, really let's get in here and develop,

which are HBO and FX. I mean, they're grinders. They are incredibly demanding. I have seen the notes and the notes are brilliant and the notes are extreme and intricate. And not everything turns into a diamond if you squeeze hard enough. That doesn't work for everyone.

Some creators, and they don't do that for everyone, I don't mean to pretend that that's what they do. But it's too facile to be like, Apple just shrugs and writes the checks and HBO obsesses over every detail. Broadly speaking, that's kind of probably, true, but there are outliers on either side. And

there's also good quality from either side. I wish that Apple's stuff was a little more focused for the consumer. But it almost doesn't matter if they do. Whereas like Peacock, for example, I think what's fascinating about

Peacock's recent choices editorially is it's very hard to imagine a consumer. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love pushback on this, but like the average peacock consumer who watches NBA, okay, so far we're in, Top Chef, we're in the larger Bravo universe, not necessarily me, the Burbs, the Copenhagen test, and miniature wife. Like that is, that's a very broad brush. Apple can get away with it.

Apple can be like, do you like F1? Yes. Do you like slow horses? Sure. Also, here's this, you know, quirky horror comedy. And then they sell, you know, 100,000 more MacBook Neos. Yeah, you know, there has been some speculation about whether or not Tim Cook's resignation or stepping down will lead to... Stepping up. Sure. Step to heaven? Where is he going? No, I think he's taking on like a larger title, but he's no longer the CEO day to day.

Yeah, I mean, but the, whether the new CEO will be like, why do we have this? You know, now, I think probably you could make the argument that it's been a net positive. for Apple to be so forward-facing in culture by being a part of things like F-1 and Ted Lassow and putting Killers of the Flower Moon out or what have you. But I'm curious to see whether there's ever any like, hey, season five of that, really?

Like, yeah, any curtailing of it, any changing. It's funny, though, because the one thing, for all the criticism that people, fair criticism, I think people lobby at Netflix, Ted Serendos is like love of, Hollywood or love of S&L or the things that he loves isn't questioned. But then they're like, is this good for, like, there's Tim Cook, this is not a shot against Tim Cook, but it's just like, I saw a thing that was like the only time he's ever seemed

really enthusiastic or happy is when he's crossed paths with Lana Del Rey. Yeah. Which respect. But it's funny that like you would think that someone who devoted so much capital to the sprawling entertainment wing of his company that continually does feel a little bit unmoored from strategy. It's amazing what you can do when you don't buy data centers. Yeah, well, there you go. You can make shrinking. There you go. Right, but you'd think that he would be a little bit like, how fun. I visited set and I do love this. He doesn't seem to be that

interested in that, which is also fine, but the behavior of the company would suggest that he was like, in the same way, like Jeff Bezos moved to Hollywood, you know, and he's just like, I like this. And then he moved to where there are no taxes? there's a world in which you know I mean Apple obviously is one of the more one of the richest companies in the world one of the most valuable companies in the world there you go glazing them again

but if Steve Jobs the movie written by Aaron Sorkin tells me anything is like sometimes there's competition internally for what's getting resources and if they decide we haven't made something new something really truly mind-blowing since Ted Lassow season two since Ted Lassos

No. Sophomor slum. No, like, there's often like a concern-trial thing about Apple where it's like, where's the new iPhone? Where's the thing that's going to change culture entirely? Yeah, well, there's also nothing more to do with a phone. Like, now there's four lenses on the camera. Yeah, exactly.

But like, would you argue that like maybe there's too much money being spent on TV and movies that could be going towards product development or could be going towards whatever else is core to their business? Not if the alternative. is like, an AI companion, you wear around your neck. And then you can hang yourself with it. Like, I don't, I think that, that this is not, I don't, I don't like read Bloomberg in Financial Times. This is not some, like, big brain zag.

But the things that I have heard, like, just casually that they did, you know, they went down the path of, like, maybe we'll make an Apple car. Or maybe we'll make an Apple TV that's also the screen. Yeah. And I think that the, that it proved to be smart that they were like, let other people make those things. we will have our phones be the software for the car. So in that world, where there isn't that much more iteration to do in the hardware space,

having a studio, is it the worst thing? I don't know. But I think your question, maybe this is more of a Matt Bellany, the town type question, is like the soft power of producing content, what does that mean to their bottom line and how committed are they to it?

Because if they stopped, well then yeah I mean I know we're like the arc light hasn't reopened but like if Apple stopped making TV this whole thing collapses thing that I saw which it was admittedly a tweet

and I did not then interrogate the truthfulness of it was the announcement by that like the Kyoto yes Kyoto is gonna like shut down and this is if you're driving around Los Angeles you see these trucks that say Keote on the side

and it usually means there's a shoot going on and I still saw them you know even in the dark days that we've been in but them announced that they're like, they're out on Hollywood? It was a weird announcement and a depressing one at a moment when, and it's not just the like, you know, happy headlines coming out of like the,

you know, there's no writer's strike that things are moving. There has been a slight drumbeat of it's coming back. Like there's more production happening. Netflix just bought the old CBS Radford lot. Yeah, there's another big soundstage going up on Santa Monica. So there was, so that that was. Maybe more of like a, is that an outlier or is that an indicator of the real economy? Well, let's take a quick break.

We're going to come back and we're going to talk about Top Chef because restaurant wars happened this week. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust.

Visit Wayfair.cair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Okay, we're back. Let's talk about Top Chef. I want to talk to you more broadly about something rather than we're going to get into the details of this episode, which was Restaurant Wars. Do you like Restaurant Wars?

This is the backbone of the show. This is what like the merge and Survivor. This is what it kind of all builds up to and then the game changes afterwards and it really usually, I think functions as like a mile marker to be like we're entering the home stretch here with these chefs. But I was curious whether or not you think

Restaurant Wars is a broad for who's good at top chef versus who's good at cooking? I think I'm of two minds of it. I think generally it is a very good benchmark midpoint of the season. Partly just because of the nature of it, we're 23 seasons in. I believe it's been a part of every season, and the chefs are aware when they get to eight what they're going to be doing, and they maybe have had some strategy and some thought

and the history of the show comes to the fore in a way that's fun in that they're aware of the pitfalls of being front of house or whatever. I also think that it's one of the few times to your point where, like, we actually see what these contestants might be like in an real-world professional setting, as opposed to the heightened manic creative nonsense of the show. So I think that's really, really good. I also do think the front-of-the-house stuff is incredibly revealing and incredibly important because, as you and I talk about all the time offline, when you're not texting me about hockey, is like restaurants, are mostly good or bad because of the service and the experience. Sure.

And that is underlooked by a lot of these. And it's also basically divorced from the reality of Top Chef. So I like all that. The thing that bugs me is they can't stop fiddling with it. There have been seasons when they go shopping for decor

like this season, and there have been seasons when they don't. I think the ones where they don't are better, where they explain their vision and then they have to, you know, make do with it. But like, I don't think

these guys are necessarily good at shopping. Clearly, in this case, some of them weren't. And beyond that, if they're just giving 24 hours to throw some cloth up in an abandoned Carolina warehouse, it's not really going to sell the deal anyway. So focus on the other stuff instead. And I felt the same way about the this year iteration of takeout orders too. Yeah. Which is just like, I understand you want to try something new, and that certainly is part of restaurant life post-COVID. But it was just, ultimately, it was distracting. And it's a split mission. Like, if you only have 24 hours and you have to have a dish that travels well, like, I think you're setting them up to a fail in a way

that doesn't showcase their talents or reward the viewers of the show. So it's interesting you bring up this twist that happens in Restaurant Wars, which is essentially like trying to recreate the panic of the bear within an already tense situation with, with like starting and serving at a restaurant over the course of one night, two sittings with only like a day or two of prep. I was watching Survivor last night Survivor 50 this is a spoiler for this last episode of Survivor 50 I hope you don't mind

but you know they have successfully introduced a bunch of like until now never seen before twists last night they get their customary letters from home which is always a really emotional moment for the Survivor people they've been out there for like three weeks

and like they get these letters from their loved ones and they all cry when that happened they also brought out Mr. Beast Okay Mr. Beast walked out with a briefcase that said beware and said he would be back at tribal council to like reveal what the beware

like chaos was going to ensue and people know who this guy is. Yeah, I mean he's probably one of the most famous YouTubers in the world. I wonder if your older daughter knows who Mr. Beas is. But they, but like in the same way that like you know, when we were in the 80s, I was like oh, that's Valerie Bertonelli.

You know what I mean? Like I wasn't a, He does things where it's like, I gave away $250,000. You just had to spend a night in Alcatraz for it. You know, like, it's a little bit running man. It's a little bit. Squids games. He did the Squid game, missed Beast games.

Is he running for mayor of L.A.? Is that a better plan than Karen Bass's plan? I'm listening. His twist basically like upended Tribal. And while I think Tribal sort of ended in a very entertaining place, it's not pure survivor. It's not pure survivor gameplay. Right.

And I thought that the takeout thing was an interesting wrinkle and ultimately did not, I think the right team won restaurant wars, which was Dwen's team. Yes. But it was kind of like either commit fully

and fucking going to, like somebody has to work a to go window. No, what I would suggest, and maybe this is coming and maybe they talked about it, and this is actually a bad idea in practice. Do a ghost kitchen challenge, where you have to create a ghost kitchen

that's going to appear on the app. They love getting branded, get the apps involved, and then they have to see how many... I'm sure all these people have dreamed their whole life of getting to a ghost kitchen and making Goop Kitchen terriaki bowls on top chef. It's a fair point, but also if we're being like,

what is the industry now? There you go. You see, like, New York Magazine covered the New York Arroyo of Goop Kitchen the way they once covered like the greatest French chefs like deigning to set foot in the aisle of Manhattan. I did not see the New York magazine. Very cool.

Yeah, it's a sign of the things like, you can't have it both ways. We have been praising the season for some feeling the editorial hand more from time to time, which is appropriate when you are on season 23 or in the case of survivor, double that. that didn't work for me because we had chefs and teams that were more than capable of doing this in ways

that were compelling on their own. Now they can't count on that. Like if these chefs had like totally shit the bed or like not been mismatched in ways it didn't work, then we may have been complaining about wishing there were more wrinkles to it

because they were all bad at doing the one thing they had to do. But I felt a little bit disappointed with the extra distraction because ultimately what they were, the takeout thing did was give them a chance in the edit to say Duenn's team and her performance was clearly superior, but some people lacked cutlery.

Yeah. Which was not as dramatic maybe. Well, because I think that the thing that I didn't understand was that these people are just going to go outside of a restaurant and eat. So that's why I guess the cutlery was important. But I was mostly like, when they're like, do you need cutlery? I'm like, no, I'm taking it out and going home with it. So I'm fine.

You know, the one other thing I made major note I had from this was that, you know, when this season began, I think my excitement, and I'm still really into this season, but my excitement was largely around the separation from the pack of Rhoda, Anthony and Lawrence, and the ensuing competition that would come out of that, because I was like, you know, sometimes you have a Buddha and it's just like wire to wire, nobody's going to beat this guy. This was like, oh, and if there's like a big three and then there's like maybe a late breaker and you could have like a pretty tight, like it's anybody's ballgame going into the finale. And now it's kind of been like that,

but not as good as I thought it was going to be because Lawrence and Anthony have kind of come back down to Earth and Rota's been in Last Chance's Kitchen the entire season, seemingly. So I was curious whether or not you even had a feel for what these people are cooking right now. I thought, I mean, one of the things that can happen in a way that I really enjoy in Top Chef is that you could be thinking someone is mid,

for weeks and then like Oscar and then not only is he charming enough in front of house, he makes the best dish of restaurant wars. And that everyone was like, well, that's exceptional. And you like to see it, you know? I like seeing people rise to the occasion and prove why they're there and make it seem as if they could be competitors, even though I don't really think that's the case. We should mention, we failed to mention since we talked about it a lot last week. Like, Seeger was back.

Yes. It wasn't that dramatic. They did the thing that we thought they were. we're going to do, which is Seeger just didn't go to Last Chance Kitchen, because obviously they shot two days or three days of the show before they did an LCK. So they just had Seeger, like, kind of in the wings. Yeah. So it's a little bit of a bummer. But just in terms of like, it is, I don't know what fair is, but okay, he's back. Yeah. I don't know if those guys were in a competitive disadvantage from his, where he was head was at. And then making him executive chef was a

choice. True. I think, I could be wrong, but I don't know if I will be. I think that there are only three potential winners of the season, unless something bizarre or catastrophic happens. You got them. Rhoda is now back. Sorry for the last chance of kitchen spoiler, but Anthony and Lawrence and they are the best chefs. They're the best chefs. And seemingly the best competitors, although Rhoda clearly had a pretty spectacular slip up. I don't see the path for everyone else in terms of whether it's their abilities or their consistency, which is kind of a bummer. And even if like it's been interesting this season, my daughters are all in finally. Took 23 seasons, but they love watching the show with me, which is quite meaningful for me. I love doing that. But they love Brandon. They like the twins,

but they were super into Brandon. I think because he made ice cream for the dessert challenge, and seem to speak their language. But, like, I don't even know if he was a contender because real contenders who know how to play this game don't do what he did, which was essentially make himself invisible and put his name on something lacking. Like, that was just such a weird strategy fail

in the one episode every year that they know they're going to be in. Remind me, Brandon was the one who came and helped his brother when his brother had kind of... Which they showed. Like, he's an incredible... He was an incredible sous chef. He clearly is...

very talented, very fast, and backstopped everything. Yeah, when Jonathan was like, oh, I haven't cut any herbs and services about the start. Yeah. But then what did he make for his own dish was a gloopy rice pudding with four soda raisins on top? Yep. Like, that's never going to win. Yeah. And it was weird lack of focus.

And I think that that focus is the thing. Because you could criticize people like Lawrence and Anthony for like playing down slightly to the competition or playing it safe time to time. And then he having immunity in restaurant wars was also like kind of like, well, you can just go do exo. You can do executive chef and then he also made a hideous, like insanely weird looking choice to make a dish that was like one thing and then he just poured something else on top of it. He also put ochre in it, which is like you're just tempting fate with slime on slime. But playing it safe in a field like this kind of makes sense. I thought, just going back to your first question, like Dwen was so good at front of house and made it seem easy, which is what kind of. good restaurants should feel like. I thought that was a really nice showcase for her and her

ability. Yeah, I thought she was quite good. I was worried with the edit that they were giving her when she was like, the thing about me is I'm super organized. And I was like, this is either you're calling your shot or this is going to be like your montage. Let me tell you something. It is really fun. I recommend this for you with your ward or whomever, like to watch reality TV with young minds that have not. You don't know about hero edits and stuff. Exactly. So they think that I am some like Nostradom. I'm Bill James.

Like I'm pointing out the inefficiencies on the field in ways that they have never understood and they want to bring me into the front office. They look at me

like I'm a wizard when I'm like that person is going to win or lose. No question about it. You know? Or like I'm predicting the winner wins.

That it's going to be central is going to be her. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was pretty much all I had for Top Chef. Great.

You have anything for After Dark today? Anything. Yeah. I'd love to address what an amazing sports week this has been I look. First of all,

this will probably be going up by the time this goes up I think the Sixers will be playing game six in Philadelphia against the Celtics but I just want to talk to you about hockey. It's me with a rake. I'm going to watch this game and I know it's going to happen. I am not. I have to go to a dinner.

I can't get out of it and maybe I don't even want to get out of it. Are you going to be eyeing your phone? I try not to do that. That's good. But I wanted to know how you felt about the flyers overtime 1-0-0-0 went over the penguins in the NHL Stanley playoffs because you

never commented on the 37 text messages that me and Zach sent last night on it. First of all, I was knee-deep in my re-watch of Widows Bay. Don't regret it. I did respond to you with a share from 4 minutes, 14 seconds clip of the Youngleen

video. So I was in my bag. You know what I mean? I felt fine. I don't... Did you watch the highlight? No, because I don't want to experience FOMO. Okay. I think I've made a decision. I'm going to stick with it.

I did feel like Zach was putting on a little bit thick with his text saying, oh my God, I can't believe hockey is like this. I've never felt so alive. Like, I thought like, I felt like Gary Bettman was like paying him a little bit, some spare loonies. To influence you? Just to be like, maybe he's texting that to a lot of people. I don't know.

He works for a culture magazine. Maybe he's, you know, setting the tone as it were. It was great. It was, and it's just been an electric week when it comes to athletics. So the, I mean, it's like soccer in the sense that like this like sudden death feeling of like, oh my God, anything can happen in this moment. When the improbable happened and the Flyers won, what sort of, how would you characterize the noise that came from your body and how did you behave? Was it? Yeah.

Let's fucking go low. You went low? Yeah. The truth is these moments reveal and I tend to go real hot. in those moments. I don't think I do well, like when good things happen in sports and the true

spirit comes out. That was a heck of a slap shot. Touchdown, fellas. Yeah, like I, but you went. Do you guys want to get some light beers under? 2.5% is my limit. Yeah, it's not awesome. It's not awesome.

I'm impressed that, you know. You got anything for me for After Dark? characters revealed in those moments. No, no, I'm not, I'm not prepared. You got me watching Resident Evil trailers, you know? Like, I'm just, I'm kind of on your street today. I'll see what I can do. We're going to be back on Monday.

We're going to be talking about Euphoria. We're going to be talking about culture. Yeah, I think probably culture. Here's a question for you. Big movie this weekend coming out. Devil Wars Proda, too. I've seen Devil Wars Prada 1. I can't say that...

First of all, it's the most rewatchable movie of the century, from what I understand. Yeah. I like that movie. Good movie. I like Emily Blent in that movie. I wasn't like this story needs to go on. But why not?

You know? I'll eventually see it. It's not a first weekend or for me. I had to go see Hocom this weekend with Adam Scott. Oh, that isn't... A horror movie set in an Irish hotel. a lot of things that interest you. I,

um, this is a big movie in my household. This is a devil wears product too. Yes. My children are very, very, very, very eager to watch it.

Have they seen the first one? No, they just love fashion. Yes. Yeah, they, yeah, that's a,

like if, I'm not trying to tell, I'm not trying to tell Hollywood what to do, but like if you want to really engage with specifically my children, 11 things I hate about you would be a billion dollar box office hit

judging by the continued enthusiasm for that film? If they just like remade it or do you think like if they revisited some of this? I don't know. I just mean like the maybe this is a conversation for for the big picture or something because like the passion, the selective passion that my daughters have for the few movies that they like is so intense and not really because they have those options. I think it has limited their interest in checking for new things.

You know, like, why go see that one we could just... So why go see the Christophers? When you can just watch Devil Wars Prada 1... Again. Yeah. Or clueless. Again. But this is a...

But there's a big 12 months of Tom Holland content coming. So that's going to do numbers. Like the Odyssey? Well, my older daughter loves three things in this world. Greek mythology, Tom Holland, and Zendaya. So, yeah, we're going to be there. Now, do you think... this is for after-dard maybe this is for the future for the summer.

Maybe we should have an episode where Uncle Chris makes his... Uncle Chris explains Christopher Nolan to a 13-year-old. Your mind is the scene of the crying. Because she'll be coming in cold to his particular aesthetic vision. Should I do it as Bean? Yeah. I'll give it some thought.

Thank you. Thanks to Kai and Kai for producing today, and we will be back on Monday. Everybody have a great weekend.