The Watch - ‘Widow’s Bay’ Sweeps the Emmys! Plus, ‘Lanterns’ Episode 5.

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about what worked (and what didn’t) from the Emmys broadcast (1:43). Then they react to the dominance of ‘Widow’s Bay,’ Rhea Seehorn’s surprising win, and more of the night’s biggest winners and losers (22:42). Later, they discuss ‘Lanterns’ Episode 5 (48:30). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hear that? It's your money calling. It wants a promotion. Elevate your savings with the Scotia high-interest savings account. Always earn high regular interest rates that grow the more you save and invest. Conditions apply. Visit scotiabank.com slash h-I-SA to learn more. Scotia Bank.

You're richer than you think. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, the winner of Outstanding Anthology podcast hosts.

Oh. It's Andy Greenwald. Weirdly, that was for Stick the Landing because it was in the eligibility window. Quite anthologized. Quite limited. Surprisingly limited. I think Kaya is still surprised.

Greenwald, great to see you. It is Tuesday. Not our normal day, but we wanted to hit the Emmys from last night. So we are here. We're going to do the Emmys. And we are going to do lanterns today. On Thursday, we will have some chatter about the first episode of the sixth season of Slow Horses, which I believe has been renewed for eight now.

Are you, what's your feeling on whether we'll be wearing the same clothes on Thursday for that? I brought a change because we are going to batch record this. You brought a change? Yeah. We also have a special appearance. Where's the memo? Yeah, go on. From our special appearance.

We'll be joined or I'll be joined by our good buddy Chuck Closterman, who came on the pod on Thursday to discuss his upcoming new book, Rock. Awesome conversation with Chuck was very reminiscent of our music exists. Another limited anthology podcast. I feel sad I missed it.

I wanted it to be reminiscent of 2002 at high five bar. It was that, yeah, except no Reingold's. It's great to see you and watch at Spotify.com, watch pod, the watch pod underscore on Instagram, ringer dash TV on YouTube, and you can

listen to us and watch us on Spotify. The Emmys. The Emmys. Is it TV's biggest night, you think? Yes. Yeah. What do you think is it TV's biggest night? I mean, NBC did those live musicals for a while. That's right. When they did Greece. Yeah. That was pretty big. You know, I enjoyed myself until I didn't last night. You know, they needed to fill out a three-hour broadcast. I couldn't quite tell if at the end, McConaughey and Woody won't some dove. Just think about it. McConaughey, And what he, if they were actually vamping to fill out the time? Or just vaping. Or were stoned and we're like, this is a funny bit.

What did you think of the broadcast itself and then we will get into winners and losers? I have very strong feelings about this. And I've had strong feelings about the last few years. You're a guy who does not think about award shows 364 days that they aren't on. And then the day they're on, you were like the Gettysburg Address. Yes. Yeah. I have to say.

So my experience was unusual. in the sense that the opening number, let's just take one further step back. Mariska Hargotei hosted the ceremony. And a untraditional choice, but certainly a friendly and familiar face to television watchers of the last 30 years. Essentially the queen of modern NBC.

Yes. She has been on that network for 20-plus years. 30 years. And she was on ER before that. That's right. Remember her and Dr. Green? I forgot about that. I had a little folia d'U, as we say, in Chicago in the 90s.

She It was a roller coaster ride in the beginning Because I will say And I say this with respect and love That the opening number was Absolutely horrific It was so deeply Disturbing that I almost couldn't look away

It was like non-AI Just slop But it was also Spancon Because while she was singing About how much she loves watching television She was wearing Marriott bathrobes I guess so I mean you're a Bonvoy guy

I didn't notice a difference between what she was wearing and what I was wearing That's totally right That's how you are at your most comfortable I'm the other hand I'm a proud world of Hyatt Explorite homies No my title I believe is Exploratist Which is not a word

But I earned those extra syllables Or at least consonant Anyway it was so bad that I was concerned The concern melted away Because I have to say that I thought That in every other respect the producers of this ceremony made a series of

small, low-key, but incredibly impactful decisions to make this, dare I say, one of the best Emmy Awards nights in recent memory. And I'll talk you through the decisions. I took notes.

I was really impressed. I want you to go for it because I got to tell you, man. I mean, I'm on the record as sort of not caring about it. I'm also on the record as saying this, it would be an interesting

opportunity for television to lead the way and double the awards. I mean, like, their FYC season seems to last all year anyway. And to, I think the TV could actually hold the Emmys twice a year. I know that that would dilute maybe the power of winning them, but I think it would make for more interesting candidates, more interesting nominees, and a wider variety of winners. Do you think Ice-T would host the other ceremony?

Would we keep it in the SVU family? I would have some of the Chicago family do it. You know, perhaps like an all-star of Dick Wolf's Chicagoverse. Is there anything equivalent to the Dick Wolf Chicagoverse in that it is massive, established, and we are completely ignorant of it? No. I mean, like, I think that... What's the equivalent of that? There are often people who are in the, like, pop culture, like, moment.

Like, I don't know anything about what is the Stella Lefty person. Right. Is, like, I have not heard of me. I don't know who her dad is. I can't tell if anyone likes her. I can tell that most people don't, but I think it's because of her dad. Yes.

And then she ripped off Noah Khan, who also was on the Emmys last night. I think other people, too. I think that the story is that, like, they're doing a forensic scan of all of her songs. Are they? Who's they? I was hoping you could tell me.

Are you up on this? Yeah. I think the internet is, it's kind of like when you are a group, on Aris and you first rip off Noa Khan and then the internet catches a hold of that and then they also go back and

like if she brought back in Square Garden and one person showed up I wouldn't be surprised if 60,000 people showed up I wouldn't be surprised. I have no idea but to your point that's not really that's not really That's how I feel about Love Island. I don't know what it is. I thought it was Milf Island from 30 Rock

or Temptation Island which was shorter lived and I guess it's not the one where they get married because that's love is blind. Yes I watch I watch that. You watch that. Yeah. My wife watches love is blind and I will dip in for crucial moments of the season. Like the moments when they are given their sight back?

I like watching them see their they're betrothed for the first time. You do love it. This is the most glee I've seen on your face in a while. It's really funny when they're like, oh shit. Oh, no. I've made a terrible mistake. And then I'll watch a little bit of their first dates. Yeah.

I'll check out some of the. the pod action because I like to see what kind of questions they're asking each other but anyway we digress the Chicagoverse

I've watched some of it in airports so specifically the thing about this Emmys okay I think that let's go up from the host once she got past the trying to be funny

and put on a show parts and she was game to do anything and as is Jalen Brunson apparently go off king he deserves it she settled into a much more maybe traditional just sort of glamorous, slightly emo MC role.

And that was fine because her cue rating is very high. She has personal relationships with most of the people in the room. And I have to say, it allowed the funny presenters, like our own colleague Amy Poehler, who's the first one out of the gate, to kill, like without any competition. So she was awesome. Marcella Hernandez was, I thought, very funny. And Malini was God tier.

Malaney was Godzilla v. Tokyo six times in a row. Yeah. He was unbelievable. He was so funny. Do you think with this, the Malini hosting flirtation? Yeah. Like, is this like, I can't even think of an analogy. Is, why doesn't he just host one of these big shows?

Well, I think at this point, I mean, he's definitely asked for all of them. Okay. I think he doesn't have to. The only thing that's particularly odd about it is that, like, he does seem to have a spirited work ethic, let's say, because his Mr. Whatever tour is now, like, crossing the four, he's basically like fish at this point. He has been on tour for the better part of two years, and it's just now announcing, like, New Year's dates. So he does certainly like the challenge, but maybe he's keeping his powder dry for the Oscars when Conan lets it go, like in a couple years.

Okay. Because it's certainly less pressure to just show up and destroy and then move along. Yeah, and not have to have two people be like, did he do a good job last night? Like us. So I thought Because no matter what, I feel like there are overarching industrial pressures on the host that they have to do certain segments. Like, I bet she wasn't like what I really want to do. I mean, maybe she was like I want to do a bunch of song and dance numbers. It seems like she did. It felt like they should have done more of the SVU digital shorts. Well, they did one, and it featured a very prominent guest star.

Yes. Which, you know, again, we only can see things through the lens of our own experience. Any moment that brought my daughters into the room. Well, there was a Taylor Swift and Taylor Swift's cat. We're in the short. Yes, and I can't actually parse which one caused them to squeal louder. Like, that was the most exciting moment. And they love Malini.

They were happy about that. But the Taylor Swift thing just had a 100% approval rating in my house if I was not in the house. Right. So that was fun for them. But what I'm trying to say about what she did as a host was create this kind of convivial warm atmosphere, which I think is the goal for award shows, but it's often hard to do, especially in this kind of like post-star era. and maybe even occasionally with the Emmys because there's such churn now in terms of like new shows being potentially overrepresented one year than going off the air for three years.

Yes. So I thought that she was really good at kind of drawing together a sense of community. I thought that the producers did a brilliant small thing in stacking the front of the arena with Golden Globes like tables to make it feel more intimate, which absolutely worked. And my main takeaway was, and again, you could, I want to hear your thoughts on this because maybe it is 20%, 30%, 40%, 40%, 40%. because I thought the winners were deserved and cool and, like, it cast a wide net. But I had a feeling last night that I don't know if the Emmys have ever given me and that the Oscars used to give me, which was, this is a kind of creative community. That these people know each other, these people like each other. They work together, whether it's for years and years in the broadcast trenches or crossing each other in award shows, you know, year after year.

And maybe it's also the, you know, the renewed dominance of Noah Wiley as a connective tissue to that era. But him saying things like, this is the only job I ever wanted, and I love this. I was kind of moved as too strong a word. But, you know, one of my benchmark criticisms of the Emmys going back decades is the Emmys used to apologize for themselves. The Emmys used to have an award show where they would slavishly rein award trophies down on movie stars, almost as if to thank them for being there. Yeah. And there would be a lot of segments like, here's why we like the movie. And now the Oscars do it.

The Oscars do it now, which is like, don't we love Rom? comes. Yeah. Yeah. The Emmys don't have to do that. These are popular, exciting shows, and it communicated as such. Passionate defense for it. I mean, I didn't actually, like, have a...

I mean, to me, it's always, like, TV is a technological advancement and not, like, an artistic medium. Like, that's always the thing I'm trying to get my head around. And I think also the insurgents of all these different types of, specifically stars, but all sorts of artists, from directors to writers, from the film world in. into television over the last 10, 15 years has changed the makeup of, like, the kind of vibe that you get. Like, it used to be, there was a very, like, pretty demarcated line between the television and film industries. And now I think it's a lot more fluid. I think the way that TV is made has changed so drastically that, like you said, like we're going to have, Woodhouse Bay probably

will not be able to defend its crown next year. Just by the nature of the fact that it'll probably not be back on until 28 or at least, I would have to imagine 28. I know that. I know that they're going to start filming in the spring. There's a chance it could be end of 27, I think, but your point is right that it will be, it will do everything in its... Trump will do everything. It certainly won't be back in 27th.

But Apple will try to get both of them back for the 28 window. I imagine you're right. There's still something kind of odd about... And, you know, the host made like a bunch of jokes about this, but there is just something so strange about the fact that this is about a box that is on your table. Yeah.

that I think these channels used to have, like, dominance over. And now it's all over the place with all these different technology companies, essentially taking over the business. And those channels, those old networks, those old companies, essentially merging with one another to keep any kind of foothold in the industry. So there's something kind of like sad and dark also behind the Emmys. But I appreciate what you're saying about the creative community and people seemingly be like,

You and I have done three shows together or like, you are like, or many people there are like, we know Katie Dippled when she worked on Parks and Rec, or she wrote the Ghostbusters movie or or Hero from Atlanta and these things and or Matthew Reese from being in many, many shows over many years. Like people know them and to see them recognized and with the warmth in which they were received was really nice. But to your point about the darkness, I thought because of the gathering darkness that exists everywhere else, I thought that some of the winners were really, maybe we're just lucky

with the winners in this case, but were really, um, eloquent spokespeople for the idea of even caring about creative community in a time like this. Noah Wiley, you know, chief among them, but also Colbert, you know, breaking the John Oliver's streak and doing it with joy, you know, and not making it about another polemic for any, you know, about being canceled. It was just a very celebratory thing, which I appreciated. And although, to be clear, I think I would probably be inclined to agree with any polemic that he uncorked. But I like the tenor. I think his show is very polemical. Like, I'm sure he feels like he has said his piece.

He's done it. And then especially Scott Gamble, who is the showrunner of the pit, you know, seemingly speaking off the cuff, well, I'm sure he had time to think about it because he was definitely going to win that trophy. Yeah. You know, I think that there is a proud or sometimes shameful history of people getting up on stage with a trophy in their hand and talking about how what they do matters and a bunch of people in America being like, excuse me, eggs cost $35.

dollars, but the way that he said it at the moment that he said it about why what they do matters more than ever resonated with me. I thought it was really nice and it felt like a genuine warmth in the room. And I wonder, I have no idea, but I do wonder if some of that warmth was a trickle-down effect from having a host who was just happy to be there, you know, and not there to skewer the industry. Yeah, I think it definitely was like a warm-hearted show. And it was a sentimental show. Like there was essentially like I thought the tempo for the program was really, good. Look. A lot of big hitters in the beginning. If you're going to offload a lot of the craft and below the line awards and also like plenty of like above the line awards to the creative

arts Emmys that happened the weekend before, first of all, I just have to say like I don't understand why you guys can't do this two weeks earlier before football starts. Like if you want people to be a captive audience, like I was odd. I was literally 10 days ago or two weeks ago just sitting around being like nothing is on, you know, and you're going up against Mahomes. It's, I just don't get it. But also you were joking or we were joking about whether the Emmys are TV's biggest night, and TV's biggest night is whenever the NFL is on. Yeah, right.

So they were actually in conflict. Coming out of a weekend where most people had probably watched some combination of college and pro football for like 70 hours. Why not try to avoid that? I don't know. But, you know, I thought that the show had really good tempo. I personally feel like if you are going to, excise all these other awards,

I am not here to watch a bunch of song and dance or tributes personally. So I don't understand why you can't do it in two hours. And if you do it in two hours, I think most people would be like very, very good award show. Then you get an extra hour, though, of stuff that I feel like they have to do and is good for the soul.

It's good for the soul to see a Dolly Parton tribute. It's good for the soul to see a James Burroughs. tribute and a Rob Reiner tribute and a Michael J. Fox tribute. Like, it is good for you. But I think it definitely has a television product slowed down in those places. I agree with part of that. I would say that like the Dolly Parton one was where they lost me slightly, not because I don't revere Dolly Parton, but because TV star is not the first thing I think of. But it was an opportunity. And it was a very pretty performance by Rueh McIntyre. Totally. What I found really actually impressive was the way they structure.

the in-memorium segment. Now, look, if you are someone who produces in-memorium segments for award shows, you're eating good for the next couple years. I'm sad to say. We are, we're just on, like, on a hideous and mournful run right now, particularly for TV, as we saw last night. But what I appreciated about the show was, like, they did a bunch of things at the top that surprised me, like big actor awards at the beginning. And I have to say, part of me cynically thought that they were giving lead actress in a drama in the first 10 minutes, because Zendaya was I was like, I'll come, but I got to go. Oh, yeah.

And not the case. No. She was there for Marcello and Tom Holland was there and they were having a good time. And I think that also affected what I was saying about like, this is the room with the juice in it now because the movie stars are there too. Yeah. But what I appreciated was by getting front loading a lot of awards with good tempo. When you get to the memoriam segment, you don't just hold on Catherine O'Hara to let Noah Cahan or whatever. Kane, how do you say his name?

Warble. Not a fan. You clear out the lane. So McCauley Culkin and Dan Levy and Annie, I'm forgetting her name, from Schitts Creek, can actually talk about someone that they love and talk about someone who, I think, is more beloved internally in that room than maybe the popular imagination knows. Similarly, Rob Reiner. That's the other thing that made it feel like a community to me because they were here to tell you about someone that you, the average viewer, always recognized likes in the 80s, liked in the 2000s, enjoyed your. go in the studio, but maybe you don't carry the flame of like, this is actually a loving, inspirational person to other people we like. And so I thought that was another bit of

connective tissue that the show did very well. Yeah, I think that your point is really well taken. You can see when somebody like Reiner, who's been a part of television from all in the family through the bear is like a pretty significant, obviously is a pretty significant person. But like I was really more just like talking about like the tempo of the show. and the emotional tenor of the show. And I don't think that they structure these shows to be one genre. You know, obviously they're like a little bit of song and dance,

some comedians bits, banter between the presenters, we're going to have like some sad stuff and then we're going to try and like surge at the end. I felt like the surge at the end did not like feel significant, but maybe that is because if you pay the least bit of attention to the end,

to the Emmys, you're like, the Pit and Woodo's Bay are going to win everything because you've seen the momentum coming out of the creative arts before. Let's get into the awards. I do want to ask you one thing, though. I want a little self-reflection. Like, you know, for as much as I like to, I like to get on here and talk some fire, I am like one of the most, like, predictable mainstream living out fellows around who like, like, anytime there's a clip of like George W. Bush sharing a mince with Michelle Obama. I'm like, we used to be a decent society. Sure. Is there an element of that in these award shows when because of politics and also because of shrinking margins and because of like the dark cloud that you're referring to, that when you see

the late night host table and it's Oliver and Kimmel and Colbert and they're so happy to be with each other and they're cheering for each other and it feels very legitimate, you know, is there an element of my old like, you know, guardrails of society? You know what? The thing is is that I always just blame myself. You know, like we're seeing those guys, that's the end of, not only of a generation of late night hosts, but perhaps the actual job

of being a late night host. And I can only look in the mirror because I don't watch those shows. And I don't think a lot of people do. And in the advent of having, you know, you can watch the 1999 masters as you go to bed if you want on YouTube. Like, it's hard to be like, what I'm going to do is watch a guy interview another guy.

You just offered that. As an example. Well, yeah. It's a separate conversation, actually, and one I think we should have because I haven't found even a moment to bring it up. Do you like watching TV? You know my answer. That is what this podcast is about.

One thing that I love, this is not relevant to this conversation specifically, but like, I love Conan O'Brien's travel show. That is my put on Love is Blind or whatever. Like, I've watched every episode of it. When we get the screeners, I have to like hold back from watching it because it is absolutely pleasant. It is funny. It is clever.

It is like diverting. And it's proof that, you know, for as pilloried as he was, for some of the things that happened over the last few years, or even at the beginning of his career, he got out early. Was he pilloried? Well, I mean, when he first went on, everyone was like, this guy's terrible. And then when he took over the Tonight Show, there was a lot of, like, this doesn't work.

He doesn't fit into this box. And then he was just kind of on TBS in, you know, in exile for a bunch of years. And then a show became a half hour. And then it kind of just went away altogether. Yeah. He's actually ahead of the curve and gives me hope for, Colbert in the sense that there is a long road of being an incredibly creative and funny person with the modern tools of media. Isn't Colbert rating a Hobbit movie? I'm just going to move past that

and assume that once that's done. But I just mean like he's okay. Oh, I'm not worried about him. I'm just saying I, there's a conversation to be had about who can be the charming frontman for our comedic generation that may be separate and apart from interviewing a dude at 1130. Yeah. But that's not today's conversation because we got to get into these specific awards. I'll just rattle off these winners. Widows Bay, one for best comedy. Awesome. Pit, one for outstanding drama.

Did we just wrap up Widows Bay in one Big Bo and say, like, we correctly predicted an absolutely unstoppable juggernaut tsunami? That happened. I think that the precursor award show also predicted it. And then we did a podcast saying, write your speeches. Seems like they did. They were all really prepared. They took away what was supposed to be like a hacks victory lab, I think.

We can talk about the hacks of it in a minute. but Widows Bay is sitting pretty at my number one show of the year. Completely organic. What? It's just always... It's in the top three. You're definitely like you've invoked your top of the list a lot. Because I'm proving to you.

I'm modeling something for you, which is consistency. I don't know how you are with object permanence. I'm bad. Fun fact. So I feel like it's good for you to hear someone just say confidently that things have stayed the same. Okay. Okay.

I'll remember that in December. The shows in my top three are the same five shows they've been since January. Yes. And you've watched seven shows. No, I started a eighth one, and I believe I just mentioned Conan Must Go. So you're kind of telling on yourself here. Widows Bay won. Andy is right.

It kicked ass. It won outstanding comedy series. Katie Diplode won for writing, hero, Marai, one for directing. Matthew Reese. one for acting. Kate O' Flynn, one for supporting actress. Yeah, Stephen Root.

And Stephen Root. Who's never won an Emmy? He was so delighted. Which is awesome. And there, the collective charm of that group of people,

I thought, was my highlight of the evening. It's, I am annoyed that it's not coming back next season. Yeah. But I, or next year,

and it won't be there to defend its crown in terms of, I think it's just good for television for shows to come back once a year. I think we have

the, numbers are in, the data is in. If you're not making rings of power, I would really like you to try your best. And I put this on the studios, because the studios should have more confidence in their work. Yes. And be like, you are renewed for two for season two or season three or season four.

Get back after it. Get back after it. We believe in this project. I also will say, and this is not an attempt to like be insidery about it, but one of the things that I love about Widows Bay is how completely genuinely unexpected any level of success was. for those involved in it, let alone this absolute coming out party of award show dominance. Like, when you make a show, when our good friend, friend of the pod, Casey Blois, Green Lights

Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which was nominated last night. Did I make? What's that? I thought you're like, well, you make a show, like to me, and I was like, cool, it's the show about. The 1999 Masters. Unexplored little, like little jamsal Easter eggs. Yeah. When Casey Greenlights Night of the Seven Kingdoms, the calculus and the math and the economics of it,

really are built around a number of things that are very difficult to control for. One of them is Emmy nominations. Sure. It is a huge success because it was both good and it got the attention and the ratings that you needed to. That is not the case when Apple Green Lights Widows Bay. I'm sure there were executives there who believed in the show and championed it. But there's a writer on the show, writer-producer named McKenzie Dorr, who was up on stage last night. And I met her in London when she was working on a show last year.

And we had a great conversation with mutual friend, talked about a bunch of projects she's worked on is working on, a funny little comedy she made last summer with Apple didn't even come up. Like, not that she wasn't proud of it, but it wasn't leading conversations, which like if, you know, I think that if you or I had worked on Widows Bay or the 1999 Masters drama, we would have been telling everyone. It's called a tradition unlike any other. That's good. Yeah.

That's good. We would be telling everyone about it and spreading the word and whether because we thought it was going to be well-received or because we were so worried that it wouldn't be. And it is just an exciting example of Apple has more money than anyone else to do this and take chances. But if you have that much money, please take chances. You know what? I was referring to it as like this, the 1999 Masters,

as if that was like a really crystal clear memory for me. Sure. That's the one that Jose Maria Olathabel won, and Tiger came in 18th. So I think I was thinking of a different masters. No, that's the one I was most interested in. The Olavable. Well, you know, I'm...

Just so that it was. Lots of people could say olatham. I'm passionate about the, you know, the subtle beneath the surface conflicts between Castilian speakers and Catalan speakers. They're not that underneath the surface. Well, in the world of golf, they often are. You know, I think the fairway is known as like the place where peace is possible. It sounds better in Catalan. The fairway is where peace is possible.

That's the log line. That's good. Oh, okay. So, a tradition like any other, the tradition, you think it's about golf, but what it really is. No, it's about divisions. Oh, and then. But the fairway, and then Owen Wilson's price, whatever the hell his name is from Stick shows up as a young man, de-aged. And he's just like-D. We Irishman Owen Wilson.

And he's like, amigos. Yes. You know? Yeah. And then what about can we get Will Ferrell's golf show in there as well? Talk. Yeah. You're fast with that.

Yeah. I was quick. Again, super engaged. I suppose then a good segue here out of Widows Bay would be the only person who won bigger than Widow's Bay last night. was the star of Widows Bay. Matthew Reese, who, I think for the first time in history, an actor won a lead... Two lead trophies.

Two lead trophies in one evening. Reese won for actor in a comedy and actor in a limited anthology or made for TV movie for Beast and Me, The Beast of Me. I was served almost immediately when looking at Instagram last night a video from the Joe Rogan experience. Couldn't be you.

This must have been the first time. Of Bradley Cooper telling a story about when he met Matthew Reese on the set of Burt because Matthew Reese was his nemesis, like his chef nemesis. I watched that movie on a plane. I watched the video without turning the sound on, so I was only going by the subtitles.

But it sounded like Bradley Cooper almost died and that Matthew Reese saved him. That sounds like the kind of story that Bradley Cooper has for every movie he's worked on. I bet like he's also like Big Dom one. I almost died in Big Domb from the Eagle's safety. 100%. He just keeps almost dying.

Well, I just want to say, because I'm assuming our inbox will be full, that Olafabal, of course, is Basque. Oh, my bad. It's the third heat, as Jack Donagy once said, the beautiful nation of Spain. Did you Google that while I was telling you that story? No. No.

I just knew that. Okay. I'm just a little sleepy. I'm excited because, you know, Andonia, Rio La, who's the coach of Liverpool, is Basque. Yeah, I know that too. As is Mikel Artena, the coach of Arsenal. I think there are a lot of good things that are Basque, like pinches.

Yeah. You could have them in small tapas bars. Reese, obviously, like, we just talked about the best actor on television right now. It's not really close. He also has the best taste. And 100% approval rating from the world. And cool family. Gene smart.

Can I just, kind of just, Reese was awesome. He's just so good. Those roles are so different. he was so happy and excited that we made for great TV and also shout out to his wife Kerry Russell who did not win which was a surprise and we'll get there

but just the two of them again this is my thing neither of them them together do not equal one Jack Nicholson I'm not saying this is the 1993 Oscars but they seem to be so beloved by everyone who works with them or sits near them at these things and she was cheering so loudly and genuinely

for everyone that that helped That helped. Yes. Also, two people who seem really happy to be on television. Comfortable. Yeah.

Gene Smart did win. It was Hax's one major win of the evening. From last night, yeah. She won for actor and a comedy, Noah Wiley. I believe that means that she won every season of the show.

Did she? I believe so. Cool. She won five Emmys? Yes. And she has many more from guest starring on Frazier eight times. Did she ever win for, like,

designing women? I don't think, I mean, again, I don't Google during the show, so I wouldn't know. Right. Does she enjoy a San Sebastian, like a sort of frothy white wine? Google. Because I'm only looking at Spanish Google.

Best Google, yeah, the best separatist results. Look, we don't need to relitigate it. Like, I didn't even watch the last season of hacks. Did you? No. At all. Oh, no, I watched the premiere. Okay.

But my enjoyment level of that show kind of waned after the first three seasons. lots of respect to them for making it. Tons of respect for Gene Smart for delivering a career capping performance. And, you know, owning every minute of the character's transformation. I have no,

I have no hate in my heart for Gene Smart. I was glad that she won. I thought it was really sweet the way she thanked Paul and Lucia and Jen Statsky, the showrunners, so directly because this was their baby and they couldn't have done it without each other.

But, I was happy Widows Bay won the other awards. Yeah. Noah Wiley won best actor in a drama that was pretty nailed on. Yep. For the pit.

But awesome. Happy for him. Do you think he'll win that award every year the pits on? I think we are approaching, I would have said a lara-quette situation, but really it's a Gene Smart situation. Yeah.

Ray Seahorn, winning for actress in a drama, I think would probably be the biggest upset. I confidently predicted Zendaya. No, I said I thought Zendaya should win. And I thought Carrie Russell would win. Yeah.

She beat Carrie Coon, Chase Infinity, Carrie Russell and Zendaya. There's a cool category. Yeah. That was, I guess it wasn't a shock if you were to look back and see that clearly the voters had a lot of time for Pluribus because Vince Gilligan also won. Yes. It wasn't one of those things that got nominated, like it was like a,

Be happy or a participation trophy. Yeah. It's a remarkable turnaround, and I guess also an enormous credit to, I don't think we're generally in the business of lauding publicity campaigns and, but in awards campaigns, but clearly Apple did something that AMC wasn't capable of doing. Well, in the comedy department, Apple is now dominant. On a, on a, on a, on an undefeated run. Because the studio. And they could alternate those shows for the next. Oh, right. They could alternate those shows for the next however many years. So they always have something. But, but, but, you know, Racy Horn.

should have been nominated many times, probably should have won for Better Call Saul, didn't. And when you look at this category, I think only Zendaya was existential to the show to the degree that that performance, like you don't make that season if Zendaya is not going to do those things.

Similarly, Pluribus just can't exist without Ray Sehorne's performance. Sure. And I thought she was charming and it was deserved. And also it was, again, I don't know if I'm emoting or like projecting, but I felt that the room

agreed with the podcast community that this woman deserves something. Other nominees in Outstanding Lead actress seemed elated. That's what I'm saying. I thought that was sweet. And sometimes the narratives that we push aren't necessarily ones that exist

among the people doing these things. And it seemed like that was real. I thought it was awesome. And just to use this as an opportunity to say, I actually thought briefly because a lot of the pit actors canceled each other out, allowing some surprise...

Is that what you think happened? 100,000. million percent for supporting actor and things like that. What's up with the amount of people who get nominated for supporting actor? But because of that, I thought Plyrobus had a shot to win best drama. I thought that, but clearly... Really? I did.

So I went into that last moment thinking maybe it was going to snatch it. Really? Because clearly they loved it. Voters loved it. And also, the pit's going to be back next year. So there could be a little bit of get you next time. I don't think people think like that. They do not think like that.

And it also just affirms my theory that the other nominees can't. to each other out because any time a pit person was alone or the show was alone, it won. Why are there so many people who get nominated for supporting actor? How many nominees? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven people. Whereas an actor, it's one, two, two, three, four, five. Seven to five. Well, I think when you build something, you know, you need more supporting columns to reach the top. That's not a stupid answer. A little bit stupid. No, I think I do not know the answer to this.

But that will not stop me as a white male podcaster from opining about it. That I believe that there may be a seven cap on all the categories. But you have to hit like a certain threshold. Yes. Okay. Because I think there were seven nominees in the series categories. So Ray Sehorne was a bit of a surprise. And I got to say I was surprised by Sally Field.

Yeah, go off on this. Now, I... Get her, Chris. Believe I said... Play the music. I thought this was category fraud, and I didn't understand why remarkably bright creatures, which aired on Netflix with hundreds of other movies, was distinguished as a TV movie. Yes.

And I did not see remarkably bright creatures, so I cannot speak to Sally Fields, Tova Sullivan, and her relationship to, I believe, octopuses, and they're... Well, octopuses and Dr. Octopus, because Alfred Molina is in the film as well. And your boy, your favorite young actor in the world, isn't it? Lewis Pullman. You should check him out. Sally Field beat Claire Dane's Carrie Mulligan, Sarah Pigeon, and Sarah Snook. I thought maybe Sarah Pigeon would win.

Yes. Just because that seemed like a breakout young star performance that the industry would like to lift up and say, we got another one. But I was wrong. It was more like a maybe not a lifetime achievement award, but Sally Field seemed genuinely surprised and incredibly prepared to speak off the cuff about not only her career and her experience making remarkably by creatures,

but one of the few explicit anti-merger statements, which was from a night that I thought was pretty devoid of political commentary. I want to be clear, Alfred Molina voices Marcellus, the giant octopus in the film, which is probably how I would have. And does that octopus pick well cup winners? This one doesn't. This one actually sort of... That's just my guy, Paul.

How's he doing? I think Paul has moved on. Is he the CEO of Kalshi now? Making money. Smart. He's ahead of his time. Remarkably bright futures. Yeah.

I love your theory. I mean, it is odd. Like this used to be in a different TV landscape. there were like the HBO movies that would clean up these categories and weirdly be up against like, you know, the miniseries that were on NBC and that's just how it shook out. And invariably, the award would go to a movie star that took an HBO gig over a TV star who is in a 10-part miniseries. This was odd because, as you said, there was one of the nominees just stood out in the sense of like this is a veteran legendary actress in what is 100% a movie. which is part of the it's part of the award but I just don't understand really what distinguishes it between them why

why not put Matt Damon from the rip in actor? First of all I don't remember him talking to an octopus in that film so he didn't deserve it also he's a male actor so he wouldn't have been nominated. The sort of eight tentacled criminal justice system

that he fights against and the corruption and they're in. It's almost like ripping the tentacles off of the side of the tank if you will I think, I wondered, I kind of liked, I see now the shape of your, we're just asking the questions here on this one. This was the one moment where I was like, like, for example, with my children, when they're like, the MTV Awards of this weekend, Taylor is going to perform, oh, I hope she wins. And I don't have the heart, like they know the two fairy isn't real. The two things are inter-interhearted, yeah.

You have, aha, but you have found the truth. I, she was going to go up to eulogize her friend, Dali Parton. So she was already going to be there. Oh, you think it's cooked? No, I'm saying you said that. So I was just asking the question. I was just surprised. I thought Claire Daines or Carrie Mulligan or Sarah Pigeon or Sarah Pidgeon or Sarah Snooker.

Like, if any of those people had won, I would have been like, oh, yeah. Anyway, just to kind of get back on track here. My, probably my favorite award of the night went to Tom Pelfrey. Awesome. For task, Pelfry gave. gave such a beautiful vulnerable sensitive performance star making

even though he had been recognized and had been a mank and stuff like that but I think yes task is certainly like I think a signature role for him it was so cool to see the task cast and Inglesby there I thought his like

I thought he seemed to be genuinely moved and have like really sincere things to say about being an actor, being a father, being sober. I thought that was cool. And it just felt that because, you know, task, I don't think it shifted categories,

but was viewed as a limited, became an ongoing, and then submitted as an ongoing, and then wasn't nominated for Best Drama. I think there was some surprise that he won, considering it was hard to gauge what the voter's affection for that show was. Yeah, I think it's, generally speaking, the Emmys tends to seemingly vote in blocks.

and they get behind a show and those shows tend to roll. So having one-offs here and there I think is really good for the Emmys but it is not typical for the Emmys. Some other winners, Alison Janney for supporting drama and drama for the diplomat.

This is when they really spread the ball around in drama. Slow Horses and Widows Bay won for directing. Can I say the slow horses one really surprised me? Saul Metstein won. Had a good joke about looking like a Bond villain. But I was really surprised because Slow Horses generally seems like a show that the voters really, really, really, really like,

don't love enough to give any awards to and just sort of tick a box. The fact that he won over two nominees in particular. Well, he beat Sally Richardson-Woodfield twice for task, Vince Gilligan for Pluribus, Noah Wiley for the pit, and Hennell Culpepper for Paradise, and Sally Richardson-Wittsfield for Gilded Age.

Again, I think Sally probably deserved this, but probably split her own. vote there. But that was interesting. And again, the kind of thing where I'm like, it's kind of I'm not saying it was cooked. I'm saying it was nice when the bounty of drama awards were spread out like this. Yeah. And that's pretty much it. Colbert, obviously won for late night and traitors for reality. I got a couple others. Please hit me. Okay. What are our thoughts on Emmy Award winner for Paradise Season 2 Shaline Woodley's fit

Would you like to go on the record? Did she wear like jeans or something? What was she wearing? I am not gendering anything when I say Kaya had a reaction to the question and I wondered if she wanted to weigh in it all. Yeah, I don't... Kai, you are also welcome to weigh in.

It is not at all about asking the woman in the room with us. Horrendous. It was tough. There was like some gloves involved. It was... Do you have any thoughts? I'm trying to find it.

Sorry, I wasn't looking at the outfit. I was looking at the body of work. She was wearing like leopard. Yeah. And like a vest, but nothing underneath the vest. All right. She's had a tough week, you know? Aaron Rogers aired her out a little bit.

And I think we should support people wearing what they want to wear. I agree. Now when you put it in the term, like in the sense of like if anything Aaron Rogers like publicly speaks up against, whether it's her. or science. I'm generally on the other side of the issue, so I would like to retract my slander. She can wear what she wants.

Even a mask. You know what I mean? Because I trust doctors. Vince Gilligan, we have met him in person now. We know this to be true, a lovely guy. His speech was also very... I mean, good for him. Yet another thing he and I have in common.

Last thing, Steve Conrad. We talk about him a lot. He won for DTF St. Louis. congratulations to that show. It missed us like in terms of our reaction to it but clearly loved by both audiences

and the voters. So congratulations. What an interesting vibe. Him? Yeah. I think he walks the walk, man. I mean, I really respected it.

It's nice to see like an authentically like offbeat dude. That's what I'm saying. We talk about him like he's a major celebrity. You kind of see why the sort of protagonists of his shows

are the way they are. Yes. Very, very, reminding me a lot of the lead of Patriot. Yes. Yeah, or some of like Richard Jenkins in DTF. I thought that that was, I mean, we talk about him like he's a celebrity. We don't really engage with his work, but we are interested in it and we respect it.

But I've never actually seen him. And there he was. And what a journey. I got to say, big what if is him doing Nine to the Seven Kingdoms. That's the one he was attached to you, right? I believe so. Yeah. And I would love to see that script or like, I don't think they shot a pilot, but I would love to see what work he did before they were like, what?

I do think that one of the great unexplored, like, texts in this town is, like, could we really ever know what these other projects were? Like the aborted versions of them? Oh, yeah. I do think there should be some sort of statute of limitations where networks and studios can bury projects for 10, even 20 years, but then they have to put them in public domain. I'm thinking of this because I've been reading, like, quite a few years late. but Jim Miller's HBO, massive HBO oral history, Tinderbox.

And there's just these incredible like little stray details about like when Bill Carter from the New York Times wrote the book about late night when it mattered. The late shift, I believe it was called. And they,

Ivan Reitman came on to make the movie version for HBO and the first call he made was to George Armitage, super weirdo filmmaker who did Miami Blues. Yeah. And he took eight months and wrote a script that begins with Jay Leno and Dave Letterman

getting super drunk. together at a bar? And they were like, these men don't do this, and Jay Leno famously doesn't drink. Yeah. And apparently the movie turned out the way it did because Bill Carter got that script

on a Saturday and was so worried about pretending to like it that he just jotted down 40 pages of a different version of the script that then they bought on Monday. Okay. But give me more. Give me the George Armitage version.

Give me the Steve Conrad Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We should do a special episode on Lost Projects. I know we've mentioned them before and we've gone back through the archives, but I would love I would love to revisit that. What you do you have a, I don't have anything in my brain right now.

I don't know if you have like a white whale of these. If I remember correctly, there was an Altman show. Probably. I think it was for, I want to say it was for IFC or it was for some smaller network,

but I believe it was about like a gun moving through society. There was a show. Well, that's interesting. There was a show with that process. I don't know if Alderman was connected to it. Altman did do Tanner 88

for HBO. But, oh, well, there was going to be a Predoporte series. Oh. Also, it says that he had a show about Spanish golfers. Wow. Tell it on yourself. But I guess you and the greats.

You got to rip off good sources. Yeah, of course. Emmys. Good night. Way to go. Thumbs up. Let's talk about... You didn't hit any. parties? I did not, man. No. I've been on a run right now of watching mountain climbing disaster movies. But like, why? Well, I was trying to find a nicer way to say it. Like, are you in pursuit

of a larger project that you're going to unveil? What did we watch first? It would be called, don't stick the landing? We watched a movie called K2 with Michael Bion and Matt Craven. I believe that movie has a subtitle called The Widowmaker. Is that right? No, that's the submarine. That's K-19 or... That's weird because I feel like climbing K-2 would also...

It's also funny, you should say that. Then we watched Everest, which is Jake Jollen and Josh Berlin on the John Crackauer into thin air trip that was disaster. Right.

And tonight, well, we're seeing Resident Evil tonight, but then I think we're gonna watch I think it's called Terminal Void or Terminal Distance or something like that. We just like mountain climbing. movies right now. Before we get into Lantern, should we also shout out that Phoebe wrote a fantastic

profile of the star of Resident Evil? Yeah, Austin Abrams in British Q. For British QQ. Yeah. It's, your household has been just... She also wrote one about Keene Ruffalo from Sterling Point. Really? Yeah. I haven't seen that yet. That's in New York Magazine. She's busy. Let's talk a little bit about lanterns. Well, let's talk a lot about it. I spoke about this episode at length on the Midnight Boys. I filled in for Charles. And that was really fun if anything, just because of we engaged in a conversational, like a topic that I don't think we had really discussed,

which is really more the mechanics of like Manhunter. Like who is the man, who obviously we know the Manhunter is, but might there be more? Was there really just one? Could the Manhunter have learned how to spawn? Well, the Manhunter does like sex. I mean, I'll just say it.

Yeah. The Manhunter gets after it. Apparently, that's one of the hallmarks of man hunting. Well, maybe that's what they're hunting, a good time between the sheets. They're hunting men. Yes. Yeah. Did you think about that on the other podcast?

That's amazing. But I had not really considered until this episode, this episode was written by Justin Brick Gibson. Yes. That the most handsome mustache in Hollywood. The young boy who is the son of Carrie McDonald's, Kelly McDonald, and her carry character and Jason Ritter's character Willie

and he's got Billy and he's got a little bit he slings it he's visualizing John Stewart helps him sling it yeah and I think also Zoe helps him sling it uh huh a football I mean exactly Zoe slings it elsewhere's a very interesting scene

in this episode where it seems very important that he is protected you know and that he takes with him the lessons that his grandmother has given him. To be fair, a similar show

about like a young Arch Manning would have the same tenor, right? Like this boy must be protected at all costs. Well, not anymore.

No, the gloves are off. The bubble wraps off. Yeah. But I'm saying, like the football alone in this country makes me think

that that's worth. Yeah, I mean, we talked at length about what college program this kid might show up to. Is this van recruiting him for LSU?

It just gave me an insight into like, oh, there are like, there are layers. to this show that I hadn't considered. I wanted to know what you thought of this episode anyway. Well, okay, I'll talk about it, but I, because I have not listened to that podcast yet, I kind of wanted to know where you were coming from with it, because I, and I'm curious about the

deeper thoughts. My relationship with the show, I find to be fairly unique in recent memory for big shows in that I still hold that the second episode was the high watermark for me. I thought that episode was just excellent and I loved it. I've had, you know, a great time and a great time talking about it and admired some of the choices and love some of the aspects of it and the performances or the jokes or the just structural bravery that the show is attempting week to week. But for me, this episode was never dull. There's never anything less than entertaining and often quite surprising. And that's not nothing. It did strike me as the kind of loud noise that is distracting from something in that a lot of shit happened and a lot of shit got resolved and i still

now please come at me with the most obvious rejoinder there are three episodes to go i don't really i understand a manhunter so i thought i don't understand zowie i didn't really understand why she did what she did at any point during the episode why we were so afraid of her other than the fact that she was willing to satellite laser people in the town. But the narrative, she's a war criminal, was just so blanketly applied, and then everything sort of spun from that. I was having a hard time tracking, like, Macon seems like a very important character. Surely there's another card to turn. No, it's really just two scenes. There's the nude painting, and then there's the heart carving scene with Paul Ben Victor, which was a sick scene. Yeah. Really good. Jason Ritter

I assume got cut out of a lot of these episodes? I think he's going to have, I mean, in the scenes from next week, he seems to be showing up. Okay. So it clearly, because of the way the show plays the time, you kind of can't. It's a defense against this kind of like episodic interrogation. But I will say that because a lot of it is either being punted to the end and a lot of the swings are so big in the way that I think comic book swings are big, but don't necessarily always translate to TV, that it felt. compelling, noisy, kind of flimsy at the bottom.

Okay. I think that there is... Okay, so my number one favorite thing about it was the placement of it within the season. Right. To have something that felt so board resetting. Yeah. It kind of ended the first story.

And ending this story of lanterns. I found the way that they've assembled the season to be quite creative, sometimes a bit maddening, because I think there have been maybe one or two too many red herrings and I was nervous

that we were entering a no one ever really dies like wink wink like we're not gonna like you know obviously with Zoe her fake death two weeks ago but since the entire framing device of the series so far is who killed Hal Jordan

the idea that that's Hal Jordan's Sentry or that how Jordan has somehow, how Jordan has survived is a little bit frustrating to me. Yeah. Because I want to believe that the consequences of people's actions have real reverberations, you know? Like, I don't want it to just be like,

but he was zapped out at the last second by the guardians and his consciousness is in an ice cube somewhere. You're smartly running at, I think, the central crux of comic book entertainment, which is how would you successfully balance or marry cool spectacle with actual rich emotional storytelling. And I think this series has been a really fascinating, and again, incredibly well-made and very engaging,

like live stress test on doing it, on trying to accomplish it. You know, like the opening, there's all these little details that I'm definitely not picking up on in my first viewing, probably some of the Midnight Boys, Manhunter stuff goes into that category. the last scene of last week's episode

when Hal crashes the car reading about it later and noting upon reflection that yeah the street lights pretty yellow in the stuff, you know, it's a color of fear and is hell under the control of Sinestro. And so it's doing these big comic book things.

But sometimes the comic book things mean the cold open of this episode, which is revealing that Kelly McDonald's character was on the run from Gotham and was a daughter of a snitch and she was a snitch too and she was going to be killed. She's not a snitch.

it. She just... No, no, no, they said she... She would be. The children of snitches also get stitches when their fingers off. And that Zoe steps in in a diner and is like, of all the people who have driven through this town, you're my guy, Blue. Like, you're the one. Cut off your own finger. I'm going to kill this guy, etc.

And that is one of those ones that, like, your mileage may vary. Like, I thought it was an incredibly cool conception. But I also felt very heavily the this has to open this episode because we can't delay any longer her relationship with Zoe and what she knows. And I still don't think we know the full extent of her.

Because we know she's alive 10 years in the future. And when she has that conversation with Hal where she's like, I have to shoot at you because she can see but she can't hear. And Hal is like, why are you protecting her? I thought that Carrie's response to that went beyond just like she saved my life in a diner one. There's something else. Is it her son? I think it could be her son.

Yeah. Right. Right. And so that there is like a greater reason why she has to protect this specific town. Are you tracking, scene to scene, Hal's intentions and John's intentions, and where they are with their separate and now conflicting journeys? Hal and John, yes. I found, I was personally a little bit confused by the more extraterrestrial stuff of the Guardians,

the Anton crew, and Zoe. and how that all had shaken out and what they each kind of had come to Earth to do. And the timing of when they were able to do it in that like it seemed pretty clear to anyone who enters Rushville that something's up, but Anton was kind of hanging out in Glendale until John told him that he would take care of him.

Yes, and then like what do you, do you need somebody specifically to do something for you or can you just go in there and do it and like what are your alien capabilities if you're using machine guns? It doesn't really matter. But their alien capabilities. And what is your attitude about the fragility of life?

Considering their main thing is suicide bombing themselves at appropriate moments. And, you know, like, that's the line, too, where I'm like, the Anton character is awesome. Casting that actor is exciting. And every scene that he was in was really, really compelling because of the combination of actor and tone and specifics of the moment. So you could say, man, they just ran right at it. blew him up. Like he got his big scene. He cut out, he did a last, the Mohican surgery. Yeah. And then he blew himself up in a tornado. And now it's like, wow, how relentless, how unsimper, how unsentimental this show is to just throw every one of its ideas in the middle. But then there's also

part of me, maybe it's a more conservative part of me that's like, we slow down here. Like, I love you have a water tower full of darkness. Yeah. That whole sequence was sick. But what's he really feeling? As I say it, it sounds lame as hell. Yeah. But there was something about the elevating. I don't you mean. And I also, I think that the thing is, is that sometimes, like, the incredible set pieces in this episode got in the way of, like, legibility. Like, I didn't really understand why Zoe needed to sacrifice the entire town to get Howl's ring down to 10%. You know, like, it seems like there could have been, like, for all the things that she thought through, unless the whole point is this is what Manhunters eventually do. Yes.

You know, because she obviously had this past with Anton. Yeah. that had been heretofore not been mentioned. Right. They, they, they, they,

they, they, they, they, they, they, intentionally take the form of an outsider

or someone of lower caste or whatever you want to call it in a society, because that's how you get full perspective on it and then the romantic parts of it. And, and then you get the kind of very, like,

fine, but aggressively like, oh, I thought you were heterosexual in the line about like the pleasures of the universe. Yeah. Um, but,

I also Yeah, but again Like that's where If the show is good enough Which it basically is You don't think about The A to B to C Nipicks of it

But there were some of them That were more flagrant That I guess either broke up My ability to just let go And enjoy it and not pick nits Or to appreciate Some of the show's genuinely Good Faith and quite clever attempts

At Cemetery Whether it's the yellow light That I didn't appropriately notice Or that when we think John is taking the ring in the hotel room, it is an exact mirror of, and we haven't seen it,

but of Hal's origin story where there's a dying lantern and there's a manhunter and there's the new one. Right. John executing Zoe at the end, I wasn't sure why Zoe took a knee on fourth down there.

I mean, a coward's draw. She did seem to have a lot of, like, escapability. What you're saying is she had the tools in her body. Shout out Howie Roseman to get out of that.

Well, I guess she didn't have her iPad, which seemed to be essential to executing. Among the many things a Manhunter has in common with my nine-year-old. The dependence. The world eating. Yeah, I mean, like the skill, the raw talent, but also ultimately the limiting dependence on it. Yeah, that's challenge. What about, you sent me something I thought was funny. We can wrap up on this, but someone did bring up the very clever idea of a surf Dracula.

In that, I'd forgotten this. it is a really, really funny tweet. Shout out Twitter when it was funny. That the idea of like in the old days, if there was a show called Surf Dracula, he'd be fucking surfing in the first five minutes. And he'd just be shredding ways. But all of modern television is essentially going away from,

we had to get, we had to call it Surf Dracula to get this made, but what this is is my Bertolucci film. No, my Bertolucci film in which a Transylvanian man who's afraid of the water and a bats both becomes a vampire and has gifted his first surfboard at the end of the first season. Yes. So the argument here was,

oh my God, is this the most clever, artfully disguised surfed Dracula of all time because John still isn't Green Lantern. Well, I mean, he's not going to be,

right? Guy Gardner is. Well, I don't... That's going to help answer a question. I don't understand... I don't know. Okay. What Jim Gunn has done here.

Yeah. Because I believe that when he was making Superman, he's just like, I want to do the funny Green Lantern without giving a lot of thought to, we will have to unpack

the canonical truth of the guardian which only one person from this sector can have the ring. I don't think this is going to be the only season of lanterns. It's very successful. No, it's not.

And I think that I think these next few episodes will be really fascinating to see to what extent we get Dracula on a surfboard and to what extent we wind up being concerned with other things.

I'll tell you, this is a nice, I'm off the hook here because I don't really know anything about green lanterns and I don't really, it's not a big deal to me if he doesn't get the ring. Wow.

Yeah, I think it's an interesting character beat for him to be like, I've realized that this is empty. Do you think they're Trojan horsing a story about a guy with severe parent issues going back to art school? Like, is this actually a Dan Klaus graphic novel, not Green Lantern? Yes. Incredible. Great to see you. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll talk a little bit about slow horses and Chuck Closter Mill will be joining me to talk about his book, Rock.

Thank you to Kai and Kaya for producing today, and we'll see you guys on Thursday. The community of television awaits.