The Watch - Will Apple Own the Emmys This Year? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ S3E4 With Joanna Robinson.

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Chris is joined by Joanna Robinson to talk about Apple’s surprising Emmy turnout, the Outstanding Drama Series nominations, the state of comedy, and more takeaways from this year’s slate of Emmy nominations (2:50). Then they talk about the surprising lack of summer TV and the potential reasons behind it (20:27). Later, they discuss ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 4 (32:16). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Joanna Robinson Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. Joining me in the studio, Bring her parmander. It's Joyne Robinson. Christopher Ryan, what a joy would have a light.

We missed you so much on Talk to Thrones this week. You did an able-bodied job replicating my aura. I thought the A's hat was incredible. Great. Black CR is definitely a character that either me or Van can experiment with. Yeah, which one do you think? I think Van. Yeah, okay, maybe.

We are here on Monday. It's Odyssey Week. It's World Cup week. The World Cup semis Tuesday, Wednesday, and then the final on Sunday. I know. But there's still television to talk about. Is it coming home? What do you think?

I think that the English national team will beat Argentina. I don't think that they will beat the win the final, though. Okay. Unless there is like five injuries in the season. Spain, France match. Spain, England? Is that your guess? I have Spain winning it before the tournament.

So I suppose I should just stick with my prediction. Why not? You have gotten swept up in World Cup fever. It's the monoculture. I love it. Yeah. There's also just like, it's a really narrative rich tournament, you know, and there's lots of like, you can watch it and just be like, great game.

Or you can watch and be like, now I need to find out everything about the guy who got sent off from Switzerland for simulation. And I did. Yeah. It said mistaken identity on the caption. And I was like, what's happening? I wanted to talk to you about a couple of things today. I want to chat with you a little bit about the Emmys. Andy ably monologued about it on Thursday or Friday.

And he also had Matt and Ben from Star City on to discuss that show, which I thought was extraordinary in its first season and really hope it comes back. I think Andy and I'll talk more in depth about that on Thursday. But I wanted to ask you about the Emmys. Yeah. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about. kind of coming out of the Emmys what we have for the rest of the summer,

which is really... Bleak. Not very much. And then we could do a little bit of a dragon check-in. Because obviously you are extensively breaking it down both on Sunday nights and with Mal tomorrow. But I need the episode four thoughts for me. Yeah. And I also

just think it's like we're about midway through or midway-ish. And I think it's a good time to do a check. I did some man on the street reporting in Philadelphia and people were surprised at our adoration for three, episode three,

but generally think this season is awesome. Okay. But they were like the moody think piece where we're not really into it. There's not enough dragons in that one.

Got it. I want battles. I want princes to die and ships to burn. Innocent shepherds ignited. Right. Burnt to a crisp. So let's talk a little bit

about the Emmys before we get into the specific shows. I am on the record as saying I don't really think the Emmys have the same value as the Oscars, obviously.

I mean, I don't think that they do. And that I am a little bit annoyed at the amount of gymnastics, the TV industry seems to be doing for the Emmys and for the Emmy eligibility window. I suppose one could look at this set of nominees and say, well, that's why they do it because there are a couple of shows, say, task, our beloved task, which I don't think got nearly enough nominations.

Yeah. Or a show like industry, which didn't quite, you know, come up against the prime, prime window, I don't think. But then stuff like the Gilded Age or Pluribus, you know. Which now seem to be like kind of, I can see those shows being kind of almost grandfathered in, like stamp that every year. Guilded Age, yeah, for sure. As somebody who follows the Oscars quite closely.

I do. What's your, like, vibe on the Emmys? What's your, how do you feel about the Emmys? Well, so the value I see in the Oscars, I will say, is the winners help determine what kind of stories get made, right? Do you think that there's no correlation between Emmy wins and what kind of stories get made? What an awesome question. I don't.

I think that there can be moments in TV, whether it's lost or homeland, where you can feel executives turn around and say, where's my version of that. And while those shows, I think, were recognized for Emmys, pretty heavily at various points in their runs. I don't... Was it lost an Emmy show? Early.

Early on. First season, I believe. I don't really get the impression that that's driving like the sort of data-rich algorithmic streaming programming these days. But I do think that

one of the ways in which these streamers have bought their way into Hollywood in general is to go nuts for it for awards. This is my first FYC season in Los Angeles, so I'm getting to experience it a little different. and see like a bit more of that of that money and how it's spent. And thinking about Apple specifically, which wasn't the hot, you know, didn't get the most nominees out of the various platforms but performed quite well in the Emmy nominations this year.

Their model right now, which is a huge money loser, right? We assume. Yeah. Seems as such. I think they would report if there was profitability for Apple. Even their most popular show, like Ted Langell. So for instance, I don't think would be a drop in the bucket compared to like a Taylor Charitin show personally.

I don't know. But it's not even just numbers. It's just like money in money. Like, you know, they don't have ads and they pour billions of dollars into like billion of the B into our content. So it's almost like a if you look at like Apple and Amazon, these are just sort of like, oh, and we have a streamer, you know, we make all of our money on our devices or we make all of our money with people buying toilet paper in Amazon's case. And then also we have a streamer because

Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos want to be part of the Hollywood. And so like Tim Cook, let's say specifically with Apple, wanting to like be at the Emmys and be part of the Emmy conversation. And obviously Tim Cook's about to not be the chief over there. But Tim Cook wanting to be part of that Hollywood conversation means that Apple is chasing a certain kind of show, which means that the Apple lineup, to me right now looks a bit like what HBO did a while ago. Yeah, or it took the lessons that HBO taught and said, okay, like, what's the more, I don't want to say vanilla, but what's the safer version of this? Absolutely.

I mean, safer, I would agree with. I would even agree with vanilla, honestly. But, like, and there are Apple shows that both of us really love. Of course, yeah. Of course. But, like, and that star model that they have. But as HBO is doing this interesting pivot. And obviously, HBO got the highest number of Emmy.

nomination, so it's not like it's slouching around, but like they're doing this IP pivot, you know, that's part of their new model and stuff like that. Yeah. So Apple has an opportunity. And I feel like in the conversations that I've had with people inside of the industry, Apple is chewing up a lot of space in the conversation. Yeah, I would also say for as much as that they're taking a little bit of the space from HBO, they're filling the vacuum that Netflix seems to have left by more or less pivoting away

from prestige awards-driven TV fair. I think every year they still have a couple of movies that they splash around for. Do you think it was Apple winning the Oscar for Coda and Netflix is just like, fuck it. We've been trying for a year. I don't know. I will be very interested to see where this conversation

is this time next year and where especially the movies on Netflix conversation is for this time next year. But I do feel like, Netflix, while still having two or three, like, very notable releases a year for our purposes. Yeah. It's fewer and farther in between where I'm like, there's a Netflix show that we need to talk about. What is the latest you've heard about this idea that there might be an adolescent season two?

I have not heard that. Yeah. That's in the conversation. And I'm just like... With the same characters or just like riffing on like similar themes? I think it might be anthology. Okay. But that sort of shocked me a bit.

But, you know, it's like one of the biggest has they've ever had. Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I can kind of see why. I mean, they basically, because of when they released it, went on an 18-month award jag for it. So it's like clearly something that has just been anointed, you know, Jack Thorne. I can't believe he has the time. But Stephen Graham, if he can squeeze that in after Heat 2, all power to them. I wanted to ask you about the outstanding drama nominations because that, was, let me just call it, the noms up here really quickly, because that was one.

Were you through your computer across the room? I didn't throw anything. I was like, this is sort of what I imagined was going to happen. You know, there are shows here that I have not gotten a chance to watch or have fallen behind on. So, like, Diplomat, Phoebe, my wife loves that show. I have not gotten to see Beyond Season 1, I think. I was a little surprised that the diplomat was here. I know that it's, as it's becoming increasingly like West Wing methadone, you know, as they just like bring more and more cast members from the West Wing on. Like, I understand that it's maybe feeling a bit, but it's so soapy to me in a way that I was surprised that it's here.

Yeah. And then Gilded Age, I think I have loved at various points. I find it eminently watchable and entertaining. But those two are at the top. And then you've got Night of the Seven Kingdoms Paradise. Season two, Andy and I talked about with amusement, but I don't think it was as good as the first season. the pit, pluribus, slow horses, your friends and neighbors. And I wanted to say, I was going to ask you,

like, you know, is there any, like, I trade this for that in the outstanding drama that you can think of? Easy. Your friends and neighbors, it's preposterous

that this is here, despite what I just said about Apple. Yeah. I think that show is terrible and I'm confused by it's here. So, like, industry is the biggest snub, obviously. I'll come correct on the watch

and honor your God, which is industry, but also, like, you know, this season of industry was incredible. Yeah, and it's, I know that Andy, I'm not sure if Andy hit this when he did his pod, but Andy illuminated to me over the weekend when I saw him, he was just kind of like, that's just not something, like the voting block is conservative in so much as,

like, they're not going to go for an overly bleak, nihilistic, fast-talking British, like, Maybe. Coke drama. You know, but I would definitely, I would go as far as to trade off slow horses for industry. Like I would get rid of one of my darlings. Sure. And then the lowdown I would put in here before I would put the diplomat or paradise with love and respect.

Like, or I'm not really into the golden age personally, but like the pit being here, pleuribus being here, those two feel incredibly important. And I'm happy for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I'm like thrilled for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I was a little surprised that it didn't get like a single acting nom. If they were like considering it in this category that it didn't get a single acting nom, but maybe that's like a season two choice. I guess my other question and, you know, you and I are not Emmy scholars,

but like is something with industry a bit more like if they weren't on board from the very beginning with the show, they don't love to get in on it in a later season? I would have to go back and look at how Breaking Bad developed into the Emmy Juggernaut that it became. and a lot of that I think was driven by Cranston and his performance. But was the Netflix bum? Breaking Bad a first season Emmy's thing? I don't think so. And I think

I mean, that just became undeniable in a way that industry, unfortunately isn't. Industry is like a smaller, like in terms of numbers. Yeah, I was trying to think of something would be like aspirational for industry now going into its final season. So it's a little bit beyond the point. But maybe a better comp would be Saul where

I don't think that that had a lot of record ignition early on, but then started to towards the end. And there was a bit for a time, sort of like, it's time for John Hamm, you know, it's time for Kyle Chandler or something. You know what I mean? Like, it's time for Matthew Reese with the Americans, you know, so, but I think

that has more to do with performance than like, what the Emmys like to do, the TV Academy like to do, is rubber stamp a show from the beginning and then just sort of stick with it. Give it an award for five years. Yeah. Yeah. So we saw that with obviously West Wing. We saw that with modern family. Sure.

You know, there are historic runs that shows go on. I was actually, I sort of dovetails nicely into the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which was a show that we obviously both adored and covered extensively was Widows Bay. Kind of a late breaking show and so much as I think it was still running when voting, when the window closed at least. Or, you know, so like a couple of those episodes technically wouldn't be.

I think they could only deliver the first episode. I want to. It's like something like really. narrow, I think. Highly technical about that. Do you think then that a, is it like a, is it a runaway train or is it like a nice pleasantly surprise?

Like is, because Widdows by Bay by far among people I talk to is the most beloved new show of the year. Yes. And so I didn't know whether that would necessarily translate to voting. I wasn't surprised that it got nominated. I was not surprised that Matthew, Matthew Reese getting nominated,

felt like a lock to me. Him getting double nominated is fascinating. Cato Flynn, I was like pretty sure. But like Dale Dickey getting nominated, I think is, that's when you get really excited for a show. Yeah, Linklater and Gilpin, you know, guest nods, yeah. Like when they start to dominate in the guest category, you know, the White Lotus phenomenon or the Pitt phenomenon

where it's just sort of like how many actors from this show can we sort of... Are there three or four supporting actress in the PIN? Four, but Nani Siprionas for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's just sort of like that, when you start to nominate sort of down the cast list, that's why, that's when it's not just sort of like, oh, a shiny new thing fluke, it's let's take this seriously.

And if I were HBO so certain that hacks, the final season of hacks, which also got heavily, heavily nominated, hugely nominated. But if I were so certain that like, you know, Gene Smart was again going to win and et cetera, etc. I would put a little bit more umph behind my campaign. Yeah, I, you know, so the other comedy outstanding comedy is nominated. Nobody wants this, the bear, abbot, shrinking

only murders and the aforementioned hacks and Only murders is one of those where like they decided early on only murders. And they've just, they really want Steve Martin and Martin Short to come to the ceremony. They're like, here it is. But if you'd ask me three months ago or two months ago, I

would have just been like, yeah, this is Hax's victory lap and like the sort of great Bear War is over and, you know, that hacks won and can write. They won that whisper campaign of, is this really a comedy? Yeah, wasn't that much of a whisperer. It was shouting. The shout campaign, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do wonder whether or not the sheer excitement around Widows Bay or on something new,

around something tonally a little bit different from stuff that's come out maybe over the last couple of years is, is like significant enough to push it. I think that there will be, it's not going to be like a clean source. sweep for hacks, I don't think. I would love to see that. I would love to see more division. Like, it really gets so boring at the Emmys when it's just sort of like the pit wins everything and hacks wins everything.

And you just sort of zone out in the beginning of the ceremony and don't tune back in, basically. But, like, if it's parceled out a bit more. Like, Gene Smart should get her umpteenth Emmy. Sure. She should get it. So should Hannah Imbinder, but I would not be upset if, like, a Kate O'Flynn who just, like, came out of nowhere.

absolutely crushed it. Everyone is obsessed with her. Like that would just be really fun. And sort of like a handing off of the baton of just sort of like, Hax is bowing out. Widows Bay is fresh and brand new. I also kind of want this to happen for Widows Bay because it doesn't feel like it's going to be ready until, I mean, at the very least late next year, I would imagine.

Wouldn't it be fun if it was a Halloween show? It would be. But she's just starting to write it, I think. Kate. I think that's true, but also isn't it true that she's like had at least had like ideas in the tank for a long time? I think you're probably right, but I am trying to be optimistic about shows coming back. And this idea of like the pitification, I guess is what we're calling it. But like how excited are we to people who talk a lot about television that next January, if all goes according to plan, we get another season of Night of the Seven Kingdoms and we get the pit starting its several month run.

And it's just sort of like those. or two great shows at the top of the year that we can feel confident. And we could get tasks relatively soon after that. That would be thrilling. I guess? No, probably not until like summer, I would imagine. It would be a great summer show.

Yeah. All that quarry. We got to get back to the, we've got to get back to rock diving. You know, the limited series has been a category in flux, I would say. There's no White Lotus this year to dominate it, I suppose. But Shogun moving out.

of limited. Didn't it move out of limited anthology into outstanding drama the year that at one and its return is I suppose still imminent but like I don't know when. Yeah, they're still filming I believe so late next year. Next year and then TASC announcing

that it was going to be a continuing series rather than a limited series tweaks this limited series category and I do wonder if TASC would have walked this if it had just been like a one-off like mayor style, although, you know, with Julianne Nicholson coming, now everything is,

now everything is an ongoing series? I'm very excited. Is Love Story just going to walk this category? Because if it's popularity, what do you think is going to happen here? I would have said possibly yes, except he didn't get nominated. Oh, yeah. And that's, I mean, I think sort of deservedly so. But I would love for like Constance Zimmer to win for that show. I did not love that show at all. but I thought there were a couple great performances. I liked Beef Season 2 a lot more than a lot of people did. I like Beef Season 2 a lot. It got pretty well nominated as well.

But yeah, it's a very funky year for that category. Yeah, I can't tell, I can't get a feel for the DTF fandom or the feeling of DTF among the awards block. Yeah, but Beeman is always like a real power player in the awards base. And he's running for Black, of it, I think, in some one of those categories. But I was struck by, you know, when we were talking about it and Andy and I were a little bit dismissive, I admit, but it was just like the passion with which people responded to

us being like, no, you've got to keep giving it a chance. You've got to keep giving it. Yeah, DTF. We got so many emails. Why aren't you covering DTF? What's wrong with you? And I think Steve Conrad has like a really dedicated fan base, but this went beyond that. I think this really caught on with some people.

You mentioned beef beast in me, I think could also be a surprise here. People liked that. Yeah. I thought it was entertaining. Like with a lot of limited series, especially in Netflix limited series, I'm like, there are episodes I really liked. Yeah. You know, like if you put Claritains and Matthew Reese in a room and let them cook for an

episode, that's great. And then Elsewise, you're like, I mean, I'm going through this with Cape Fear right now, but like, why is it happening to me? Why isn't this a movie? Riz Ahmed getting nominated for Bait. I was really happy to see that because I really liked that show and that was just like a huge passion project for a performer that I really like. Yeah, I was very happy to see him in the Digger trailer.

Seemingly really understanding the assignment, maybe even more than some of the other people in that movie. I was curious where your head was at now that we've kind of gotten out on the other side of the Emmy eligibility calendar, part of the calendar. And now we're entering into this sort of summer. And I don't know why I have this association over the last 10 years. Like really for the almost the entire time

I've been doing the pod with Andy that summer's busy. The Game of Thrones is on or, you know, there's a couple of shows on during the summer that keep people really occupied. And then there is more of like this 12-month TV calendar. And now I almost feel like we are reverting back to pre-streaming. Yeah, remember when there was no summer TV?

It is a September to May activity. And the summers are essentially a ghost town. Yeah. It kind of feels like that's where we're going again. I mean, as the whole thing is swinging back to, as like, did Netflix just announce that they're introducing like channels? Always on channels. Yeah.

I mean, we're just trying to reinvent the thing that we fled from in the first place. My understanding is that part of that is as these various streamers move from subscribers at any cost to fuck, we actually have to make a profit, that's changing their sort of throw anything in that wall and see if it sticks, which goes back to your question about limited series because what I've heard is that nobody wants a limited series anymore, right? Because you can't build a library off of a limited series.

You can't get that sort of second season pop off a limited series, all this sort of stuff. And so it's not profitable. It was all the rage. And when it was in its heyday, like when you and I had different outlets were covering True Detective and Fargo, and all the rest.

And I think you and I... And like the night of. Yeah, yeah. And I think you and I as fans of the British TV models, I mean, I'll just speak for myself. I got, I was like, yeah, do what British TV does so well. But it's not turning, it's almost like British TV is on a government model. They're not turning a profit, right? And so they're sort of like, okay, this is too expensive.

Well, it's now, and when you look at, because when I was looking at what's coming out this summer. Yeah. And there's a couple of Apple. specifically Apple bring over British made series. And there's been some talk in British media about like is the BBC or the, is our television industry essentially a feeder system for Hollywood now? Apple and Netflix. Which I'm sure is profitable for the, you know,

because they are not dealing with the same economic model that the American film television industry are. But I don't know. I mean, I think that on one hand, I kind of welcome the. break of there not being like an always like 12 month a year constant rush of TV shows. But I now almost think they've overcorrected and there's like a huge dead zone here for somebody to be like, why don't we put this here? Yeah. Like in the next couple of weeks, this is what's coming out soon.

I mean, from what I could tell. That's why we're covering came here. Exactly. Yeah. That's why we spent 10 weeks doing Star City. eight weeks. Lucky Ted Lassow, those are Apple's summer shows. Lucky and Ted Lassow.

And then Slow Horses comes out in September, but Slow Horses at this point is like, you've either got season tickets or you don't. Yeah. Netflix has the Hawk, which has been on the stove for a while. It's the Will Ferrell Golf comedy that Rami Youssef had been involved with and now has different... Yeah.

And can't throw a rock in this town without hitting a billboard for it. Exactly. And the only other thing is, that jumped out at me aside from Tires Season 3 was the bombing of Pan Am 103, which I think only appeals to us because of the cast.

Conner Swindles. Conner Swindles, Eddie Mars, and Peter Mullen, Merritt Weaver, and Patrick J. Adams. What a lineup, but it looks like a very, very procedural like TikTok of this tragedy and I don't really know like how much ground.

There was already, already a Lockerbie miniseries, I think, that was on Peacock with Colin Firth, like a year or two ago. That's what I saw for them. It's also six episodes, which may be a bit long for that story, but I don't remember.

Because it should be a movie. Yes. Yeah, probably. We love television, but so many of these things should be movies. Paramount, basically Lioness Season 3, which... But that's for you.

Obviously, I'm very excited about, but that's it for them. Say thank you, Paramount. Thank you, thank you, Daddy David for serving me. FX has the shards.

Yeah. Ryan Murphy's adaptation of Brett Easton Ellis' novel. Yeah. HBO's got lanterns. Unless I'm, unless I have missed something.

No. Absolutely not. And those are the shards and lanterns and adults and a bunch of that stuff is like later in August. Yeah, exactly.

And it's not like they got out of the wave or something. Do they get out of the way of the Odyssey? I don't know until it. The World Cup? Like, I don't know. I have no. I've not experienced a summer like this in a long time in terms of looking at what to cover and being completely baffled.

I would love to know the algorithm of like this is why we have to put 10 shows out on Apple in two months, but then one or two shows for June, for late June, July and the beginning of August. But I mean, you know, they had maximum pleasure guaranteed Cape Fear, Lucky, Star City. I'm sorry. But I did watch the first episode Star City. Did you like what I did really like it? But I was also like, oh, this is made it a lap for you. So I understood why. It's Russian and or.

Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, it's lives of others. Great. I had a great time. The Shards, I'm fascinated by, I'm fascinated by this YAA show swing that's happening. That Apple apparently doesn't want anything to do with, but Amazon is leaning all the way in. Oh, my God. Right.

They're like, this is our brand now. All I hear is people humping. Not me involved, but like coming. but like coming out of food off the television, yeah. Young people humping. But yeah, it's... She's a hockey player and she's this.

And yeah, I'm just like, okay. Like, let's give a shot. I suppose. Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. Like, it's fascinating. But what I will say to all the people who run streamers who are listening to this podcast, what an opportunity you have next summer

to absolutely own the space if you want to? Yeah, I mean, it'll be... I can't tell the way Sean kind of has a feel for production cycles, release schedule cycles on the big picture and like what's happening in Hollywood and why people are clearing out this weekend but coming hard for this weekend and whether or not something that is August the new dump you area kind of thing. I don't really have a feel for that. I would imagine these companies are pretty sophisticated at this point. They must have data that suggests like let's steer clear of late July. Everybody's gone.

But I don't know. Possibly. But also I think it goes back to that whole like you know, and this is what Sean is talking about a lot recently on the big pick, where it's just like, audiences will no longer just eat crap, right? They have had a decade plus of crap of like, we made whatever, and we're going to throw it at the wall and see what sticks. And they're getting tired of it, and they want things that are actually good. And that is slowing down, that is slowing down the entire, I mean, we're in post-peak TV now, right? We're in a contraction air. I feel like we're in something of a swoon.

Yeah. I think between, I think between like the feeling that something is going to change with the merger. Yes. I think getting out from under like the extraordinary spending, but also like the weird like arms race that happened between all these upstart streamers. I think everybody is kind of like there's a kind of show that people are happy to have on but don't really. feel the need to talk about, or at least they don't talk about it to me. Like, people don't come up to me to talk about all her fault.

People don't, you know what I mean? Right. But like, does that mean the battle is won, but we have to win the war differently? Do you know? Well, I guess it depends on what's your goal. Like, is the goal to have something like Widows Bay that feels like actual, the closest thing we have to a water cooler show in the last couple of months?

Is the goal just for everybody to, like, make money and keep people blithely entertained And a la, it's 1986 and my stories are on. And, you know, if that's the case, like, that's why Chloe 70s and five-star weekend, you know, because she's like, it's a good paycheck. My mom gets to watch it. Like, people enjoy this stuff. Like, Netflix, most of all is confusing to me.

Because, like, once again, we don't have Nielsen ratings really in these places to track things. We have to take their word for it in certain things. And every time I open up the Netflix homepage and look at the top 10 of what everyone is watching. And I'm like, but people aren't talking about this. Yeah. You know. Well, because they're also watching it completely on their own schedule and their own. On their own schedule, but like, but also second screening, barely watching.

It's just noise that's on, you know. And so it's not permeating in any kind of way. And so that doesn't let itself to the longevity or the loyalty that something like the pit will or otherwise. Yeah. I mean, even with the pit, you know, anecdotally new people who would wait until there was five or six episodes stored up to start watching the pit so that they could binge. you know what I mean like I think that people's television viewing habits have changed so profoundly and they've gotten so wise like you know fantasy avoiding and or spoilers for like a year and a half is stunning to me that he was able to be like man season two of andor was incredible and I'm like

you didn't know what happened you didn't hear about like that big part and yeah yeah yeah and that's a guy who's really online so I think people have gotten pretty good at being like I'll bookmark this and get to it when I want to get to it. Yeah, and then what you have to create, I mean, whatever, I'm just telling them to make old-fashioned television as I always do. But like, you have to create an sense of urgency. If I don't watch the pit, then I don't get to talk to everyone about the pit and have an opinion on the pit. And like what I hear so often from our listeners is, and this is very as much true for House of ours as anything else is like, I want to wait until the season's over and hear what everyone thinks and whether or not they thought it was good before. I even start it because is this going to fall off a cliff.

Is I going to start something and it's going to fall off a cliff? And I feel like I invested all this time and I wasted my time. So I'll just wait until everyone watches all of lanterns before, for example, or Spider-Noir or whatever it is. And start it. And then they either don't get to it or everyone's watching on their own speed. You know what I mean? But like once you're three seasons into the pit, is that still how you approach the pit? That'll be really fascinating.

Because, like, also, like, will people be like, okay, I've seen all the pit's tricks? Sure. You know what I mean? Possibly. But, like, if you make it through the soft, the potential's off more slump, which the pit did not experience, then it just becomes a show. Everyone increasingly everyone watches. Right. I mean, like, that's why we...

Remember television? Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, that's why a show like Succession is, like, more of a miracle than it is commonplace. You know what I mean? That the show... builds and builds and builds is able to consistently surprise people with things that happen on screen

that still feel very much part of the fabric of the story it's telling. Right, narratively, yeah, yeah. But feel like I got to go home and watch Succession tonight because I don't want people to be making bore on the floor jokes at the office and I don't know what they're talking about.

Bleak summer, but we still have Hot House of the Dragon for a couple more weeks. I did not share my feelings with you on Talk to Thrones. I thought this was like a really good episode, episode. I think not quite as, I didn't have the same feeling for it that I did about three. This was a real like, damn ravens really be flying everywhere because there was a lot of like, a raven has told me that this is happening. And I'm like, these ravens like kind of almost

like emails. You know, like Burrow last week you're like, why are people flying their dragons? And this week you're like ravens. Yeah, they should fly everywhere. You know, this was, I guess in some ways, like a James Norton showcase episode. That's 100% what it was. And we also really, we got to see. Darren. I liked up until like even the frame before he was like, Darren, come here. You're like, that's Darren. I know that's Darren. You can't trick

me twice. When your guy Brasso from Andor, John Rockston walks in, he's like my prince. Yes, that was cool. We wound up talking largely about James Norton's character, Ormond High Tower, and Darren Targaryen and there. And they're I just think it's really exciting

in the third season of a show that I've always quite liked to get characters that feel so urgent and exciting and new. Yes. I am deeply emotionally invested in Darren Targaryen for some reason. Like, I just think, did you, did you watch Bligh Manor at all on Netflix? No.

Okay. Is that, Darren on Bligh Manor? And he played like a little. Wait, the Flanagan thing? Yeah. I must have. I mean, I've seen, I think I've seen all the Flanagan shows. It was a second one after.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's two kids in that show. And he was one of them and they get like possessed by ghosts. Yeah, of course. certain point and they're so scary. Yeah.

Yeah, the like turn of the screw, Henry James sort of thing. And so he was so creepy and so good in that. And he's going to be Link in the Zelda movie, which I have some questions about as well. But like this kid is someone to watch. And I just find him really, he's fantastic. And that character is a character we don't really have, haven't had on House of the Dragon. It feels much more like a Thrones character than House of the Dragon. I was going to ask about that because the...

Ormond Darren stuff felt very well written, but in a way that didn't feel entirely tethered to like text. You know what's interesting is that episode was written by David Hancock, who you called out last season, who was on the Crown. Oh, yeah. And you called out of last season as like an elevation in the language and stuff like that. And so I do think it's interesting that they brought him on for this and he'll be on another episode this season, but brought him back to really, really introduce us to this. kind of crown-esque storyline over here in Tubleton. I thought, you know, for as repulsive as Ormond is, articulating like some anti-Targarian sentiment in a way that sort of would fit

with highborn Westerosi people where they're just like, I can't believe we're all dying because these incestuous maniacs are burning everybody. Although he also has some other hotter takes about. No, I mean, I think it's interesting because, I don't know what this is about me. Something that the House of the Dragon has always offered up to us is a complicated conflict where there are good points made on both sides. And there isn't, you know, you've always been Team Green,

but there isn't supposed to be like a Dye to the Wool villain and a clear hero. Yeah. It's trying to give you something emotionally complex. And then all of a sudden, like, Ormond Hight Tower shows up like a villain, a real villain shows up. and I'm really, and maybe I'm just like, I'm just really excited. Yes. And I'm like, oh, no, do I need basic, like, good versus evil in order to feel a certain way about Westeros?

I don't know. Yeah, they did some really nice fakeouts in this episode. I thought Ormond, him bringing back the, uh, uh, Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law. Also from Andor. Yeah, that's right. And executing him. Yeah. Or having Darren pop his cherry, execution cherry.

I also thought that the Damon Raina, scene was quite good. Yeah. And gave that character, like, a slightly different pitch to throw, which I thought was welcome. You know, Damon is among my favorite reasons for watching the show and Matt Smith's performance. But having him just be like, God, like, what do I have to do to save this girl's life? And it was just an excellent scene and an excellent piece of plot mechanics, I thought.

I think this season is already so much. better than season two. And I'm curious to see if we feel like we continue to climb. Yes. Or, you know, I don't know what the, like, even the people who reviewed this season, I think only got the first four episodes. So I don't know what the back half is going to do. I saw on Vulture, the Vulture's recap, foregrounded, though, like,

I was told there would be battles sentiment. It was kind of like, I thought after last season and all the throat clearing, like, we were going to get some real, like, some action. And I think that will, and never. inevitably be the second half of the season. I don't know how much longer we're going to have to wait, but it's weird because it's like I do know what's going to happen. Yeah.

You read the wikis. I've read the wikis. Yeah. You know. And so I'm kind of like, it's funny to not have any kind of like mystery to it, but also like a lot of anticipation for some of these sequences that I think are coming up. But what's interesting about wiki reading or even fire and blood reading is that it doesn't you know, like there's so little content in episode three and four that are from the book.

Fire and blood, you know? And so, you know, our whole shtick of like, let's explain what happened in the book versus the show. You have to like sort of think outside the box in terms of how you cover it. And that's exciting for us because we don't know. We know what happens, but we don't really know how it happens. And I can't wait to find out. Do you think that because, you know, we have House of the Dragon. We're going to get another season of that.

we have a young egg on Night of the Seven Kingdoms, although not really full-blown maniac Targaryen yet. And we might have Aguon's conquest as a movie. Yeah. If I had told you 15 years ago. 15, okay. Well, however long ago when Thrones debuted, 10, 15 years ago, that the Thrones project would be so Targaryen-based,

would you have been like, that makes sense because that's what a lot of the text is about? Well, no only because George hadn't published Fire and Blood at that point and hadn't made it clear that, like, Targaryen history was something that he was interested in. He had done Duncan Egg, but, like, Duncan Egg doesn't feel like a Targaryen story at all.

And then he had written, he wrote this, like, Wiki-esque book, you know, like a reference book almost that has some of the Targaryen history in it. But, like, leaning into Fire and Blood, that being the only thing, he's published since the Dance of Dragons, which is insane, gives them the best material to adapt. Is there other, like, Stark or Lanister?

Yeah. Well, they were supposed to do the, like, Corliss Conquering the World show. There's a, like, a Nymeria show. Like, there's just a lot of shows that they've floated. But, like, my understanding, immediately after Thrones ended, there were people who wanted to do Dunkin' Egg right away. And HBO said, we want dragons. So if you're going to have dragons, you got to have Targaryens. So that's where we are.

I mean, I would love it if there was like another thing in development that was maybe a little bit less blonde. Well, you know, I think what really excites me about Duncan A working as well, 9 of the Seven Kingdoms working as well as did and getting having nominated is like the possibility of the powers that be at HBO thinking, okay, where else in Westrose can we go? that feels a little smaller, but more approachable and exciting for people. And there's this, you know, there's this play debuting in Stratford, I want to say, or it's in Oxford. I can't remember. They're doing a stage show called The Mad King, which, so that's Targaryen-Related.

But it's about the tourney at Heron Hall, which is like kind of what kicked off the whole Roberts Rebellion War. But like, that's kind of, even though it's called The Mad King, not really a Targaryen story. And so that's, like, pretty exciting that they're exploring that. I wonder. Do you want to go with Mallory? me to go see it. Sure. Okay, great.

In England? Yeah. I'll do anything in England. Great. Yeah. That's what I was told. I wonder whether or not, I'm very curious to know because, like, you know, to the extent that I can tell, I think House the Dragon is very well, like, lots of people are watching it.

Yes. You know, I'm always fascinated as I see people greet the Avengers Doomsday concept art, which may or may not be official or whatever it was with sort of like, oh, okay, yeah. and reactions to the Russo's quotes and stuff like that being like, you guys aren't done this movie yet? This is coming out like two months. Yeah. What does that tell you?

Well, I wonder whether Thrones will ever go the way of like it's, you know, it had its moment and then it goes or is this like, how durable is this storytelling if George doesn't finish the books and or suggests something that happens after John Snow goes north? Unlike, like, what's your, what's your count? So Marvel, you're like, it had its moment. and now it's sort of running on fumes to a certain degree. I'm very excited for the Paul Bedney Vision show, personally.

And also Wonder Man got a great Emmy nomination. He's amazing that show. That was fantastic. But I won't disagree that Marvel is running on fumes right now. But like, what's the world that, you know, Star Wars endured in its own way? So is it just we need a galaxy far, far away to play with? A Westeros, a galaxy far far away? I think there's always going to be a fascination.

I mean, I think that you, we probably look back on this time period and be like Dune was also quite dominant for eight years or however long it's going to be. Actually, more like five or six years, right? Yeah, pretty fast clip. You know, there are different pieces of IP that reigns supreme at any given moment. I think one thing that's marked a lot of these things is that they have to go away for a while for people to miss them. And that's something that I don't think that the people who own the rights to these things are willing to do. Right. Anymore. They used to be used to.

But like, well, I think, okay, so here's, I think, the problem with Marvel versus a problem with Marvel versus Westrose is that Marvel's intention is for everything to click together in place. And so that means despite them saying, oh, Black Panther is so different or this is so, you know, Dr. Strange is a horror or something like that, there's, you know, homogenous nature to Marvel that that the Westero's. space shows don't have to have. And so the best example of that is Night of Seven Kingdoms, which does feel extremely tonally different if not formally, not formally different than Thrones did. Hot D is trying

to be more Thrones-like. Yes. But if we're thinking of an Egon Conquest movie and a Mad King play and a comedy like Nine of Seven Kingdoms, it just means that Westrose is a place where you can tell all kinds of stories, especially if you're not trying to make them click together.

Yes. I mean, there's also like something fascinating about the fact that for a lot of these stories or a lot of these franchises, they do have like a demarcated like this and this is when the story ends. Like not only his throne's not finished, but we have an idea. We know like they won. One of my favorite reactions to the episode two of the season of Hot Di when Reneira, you know, takes the Kings Landing. they're like all this for Brand to wind up on the top. You know, like all of this busts and then Brand's going to sit on the throne. So, but I don't, you know, obviously Hot-Dee is not as big as Thrones was at its peak. Not at the Seven Kingdoms is much beloved, but also a much smaller show. So definitely the ending of Thrones and House of Dragon season one, not quite scratching that itch for people has shrunk the, it's not like the audience has grown.

It has contracted. But it's still like a very healthy audience. Oh yeah. And I think that like one thing I sometimes don't really understand until I like leave Los Angeles is how many people out there are like, oh, I've read those books like 10 times. Like, you know, I know you and Mallory have, but I don't know sometimes like when I'm in a bar and somebody's like, well, I've read it. I might just reread it to get ready for this or whatever.

You know what I mean? Like it is it is a fandom that is pretty profound. It's true. but like that was also true if we love time. Sure. And then that just didn't stick. Sure. You know what you mean?

But I think Dune is a good comp for that in terms of like people will just read Dune over and over and over and over and over again. I mean, Dune is almost the inversion of Marvel because they were like, we have a filmmaker who's very special. Yeah. And because of that filmmaker, this cast will do it. And we are going to make this happen in a very condensed period of time. Right. But also Dini is like I'm not saying I'm going to adapt every Dune book. No.

He's like, I'm doing this. The first two. Yes. And then we're done. Yes. That's what we're doing. We're doing a trilogy. Yeah.

And Will Warner Brothers say, okay, well, they did, right? Yeah. We got the Ben and Jesuit show, which did not work, you know? So. Are you excited for Dune 3? Hugely excited. Yeah. And I mean, I love the Odyssey.

We're going to cover it extensively on House of Our. You're going to cover it on the big pick. But, like, The Odyssey, I consider the Odyssey genre IP. Sure. So I think the, I think Project Tell Mary, the Odyssey and Doom 3 being like the one, two, three of the 10 polls of this year is good news for quality sort of genre adaptation. Yeah, but they increasingly seem to be big screen.

You know? I know. It's just been a minute since, I mean, like, even, I was trying to think of like any, I don't even think there is a Star Wars TV show, live action TV show. Is Asoka doing another season? Yes.

Okay. Is that this year or next year? Next year. It's definitely next year. Yeah. Is there another one in, like, in the, Well, yeah. Well, it's like, there's no Star Trek project in the works.

There's no Doctor Who. Like, this is, I think, the first time in, I don't know, 50 years that there isn't either a Doctor Who or a Star Trek project in the works. Interesting. Yeah. It's a big weird time. I hope nothing, like, really bad happened the last time that occurred. Johnny, thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, my God. What a thrill. Thanks to Kaya and Kai and Sarah. We'll be back on Thursday with Andy covering a bunch of stuff that we missed. Everybody have a wonderful World Cup semifinals. Any predictions? I'm going to go Argentina, Spain. That's what I think.

Okay. But you're the expert. That's what everyone's saying. These are the best four teams in the world, and I think that this is like really, really tight on both sides. Yeah. Yeah. But it was interesting, the Argentina Swiss game.

Like, they had some momentum. They did. They were sweating. They did. Big Gianni came in and was just like, we got to get these guys out of here. I can't have the Swiss and the semi-finals. We'll talk to you guys on Thursday.