The Watch - ‘Winning Time’ and Its History Problem, Plus ‘Drops of God’

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about how Disney and Charter reached a deal to end their TV blackout, but we’re still left without many good ways to watch live sports (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episode of ‘Winning Time’ and how the show is running into problems by being too historically accurate (21:27), as well as the first few episodes of Apple TV’s ‘Drops of God’ (41:03). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Jason Gough from the Full Go podcast. Me and the crew, we like to entertain you. And we're going to do more of that this football season because the Bears should be more intriguing. They should be more fascination. Justin Fields. Is this the make or break gear? Is DJ Moore the piece that's going to put them over the top?

You can catch us on Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays, or when we have an emergency podcast when we have breaking news. Make sure you follow the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Did you know about one in three people with Pletka, psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling. Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate

to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya.

Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there.

Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, his emotional stability is back in the hands of Nick Siriani. It's Andy Creepald.

Can we double post this on the Philly special feed? Should we have like a Philly special special with Ben and Shield? With Nick Siriani. Nick Siriani and Nick Foles with Ben Solac and Shil Kapadia on this pod. My thing is, and I'll leave this open to our listeners, because guys, guess what? We still have culture to talk about. will. Yeah.

At least for this week. Sure. I'm actually, I'm going to tie this all together. Oh, great. What I was going to say is I don't know those guys well enough to know if they'd like to do a home and home because like, do they want to talk about our things? Because I want to talk about their things.

I know you do. Real bad. I know you do. Your reemergence in the last 24 months as like always on sports guy, but also like really, really susceptible to being knocked off your square by anything going wrong. I've always been that guy. It's destabilizing. It's destabilizing for me.

It's destabilizing for me. destabilizing. Yeah, like I because I feel like I have to give you so much. Oh. It's true.

In the course of those days where I'm trying to keep you, I'm trying to keep you tethered. As my friend or as the guy who's just like linked to me professionally and you need me to bring it.

No, I love you. I would do anything for you. But on our Eagles chats, and by the way, the Philadelphia Eagles played yesterday, so that's really the most TV I watched. See, that's the thing. Chris is trying out a,

it's not trying out. Like you generally are a level-headed guy. I am. People know that about you. But on the chat, like, you were really working that angle of, like, guys, it's week one. I was week one. Jalen hadn't played in camp that much.

He hadn't played in the preseason. And it's Bill Belichick getting a summer to scheme for us. From my perspective, that was one of the worst few hours of my recent life. It was awful. It was a feel-bad win. 20 weeks of this with you. I'm terrible. I've never a lot.

Like, people should know this about me. I run hot and cold. I have extreme reactions. This is why I need chat GPT. I got to put a bot in this text thread so that I can just be like, you're right, bro. Tough stuff.

It's so sad, so cruel. No, I love it. It's just that I am, I think the things that make me a decent to middling podcaster make me a profoundly bad fan of sports because I am not interested in a spirited contest.

I am not interested. interested in a white-knuckle, the edge of a seat. I just love athletics kind of afternoon. No, you want 40 to nothing. You all want the Cowboys did to the Giants. Yes. And what I also want is that never to happen to the Cowboys again. Like those are all, those are, those are my asks.

Yeah. One of the funny things that happened yesterday, so obviously the NFL season came back. Right. Andy and I are often like, man, we need a monocultural show to discuss that everybody is participating in all a succession. And, you know, succession is sort of hilarious because two to five million people or whatever are watching it at any given time. And yet we treated it like it was literally the Super Bowl. And then there really is only one monocultural thing.

And it's the thing that you would just be like, well, I guess I had to get up this morning and pay $400 for Sunday tickets. I had. So that I can watch fucking football. Hey, America. it's me, your buddy. Yeah, so Chris, among other things, just so really, you really were available to me this weekend in a way that I just want to say thank you.

You're welcome. Generally, for the past, when I say generally, I mean, for the last 20 to 25 years, I have been able to survive being an Eagles fan just skitching on the kindness of friends or... National television. ...to watch my team.

And the way things shook out, yesterday. It wasn't a gathering place. Wasn't a squad forming. I will leave you unblemished because you've been so helpful. I won't say why you were not available. Now it sounds like because you're having a procedure done. You had plans. I unfortunately had plans. And also to Chris's credit, when I was just like, so that's how it's going to be now, huh? You were like, it's week one. Yeah, you were like, I didn't know the snowflakening had taken place. Like this is what wrong with America. Guys hanging out with their wives.

So I had to watch, so I had to figure out a way to watch the game and I did not want to go to a public house, I think they're called. So I was like, okay, Sergei and André and the rest of the team at Google, what do you got at Alphabet? What do you got for me? Yeah. And what they got for me was a gouging

the likes of which I was not prepared for. It's unbelievable what we're willing to do. To watch, like sometimes a pretty mediocre product. And I was miserable with the product. It's just, I mean, it's, NFL is great, and I watch it every week, and I watch, like, multiple games every week, but it is the only thing in the world where I was just like, $400, that makes sense.

But it's not just that. They were like, here are the four ways you can spend $400. Would you like to spend it today? Or in six days, or incrementally for the rest of your life, now that you own YouTube TV. Like, it was wild. They were like, here are four choices. They're not choices. Yeah.

And although I, to tie it into the larger cultural conversation on Bill's, podcast. He had a great guest last week talking about the Charter Disney thing. He, you know, we talked about the Charter Disney thing. It was Ben. But Ben Thompson. It's just a word. It's a hard time saying. Even though I subscribe to the newsletter and many of the podcasts, including greatest of all talk with Andrew Sharp, which is one of my favorite basketball pods that we don't make. But also that's not a, that's not a work. That's why you struggle with it. I get that. He was Ben Thompson. That's right. Who I thought was the offensive coordinator for the Lions. That's Ben Johnson.

Johnson. Yeah. Thank God you're here today. But, so one of the differences between Bill's conversation with Ben about the charter Disney cable TV kerfuffle, the things that differed from us is that he had facts. And he's done, he's quite knowledgeable about the subject. So I really enjoyed listening to that, wish I'd heard it before we thought it. I can only speak as a charter spectrum user, which I, I'm fine coming out from behind

the veil and saying that that's who I am. No, it's a human interest story for you. And yeah, it really hits home. And it was very interesting, Andy. We're talking about all these various packages. Well, I promise, this is tying into the TV consumer element of this podcast. You mentioned all the packages that YouTube were offering. They very savvily were like, it's cheaper to get YouTube TV plus the NFL package than it is just to get the NFL package.

This is the connection I wanted to make too. And I thought about it long and hard. Yeah. I thought about cutting the cord. Kaya is crying on the inside because she's just. like all I do is watch Steph Curry highlights on my dad's direct TV password. But I really did think about cutting the court. I like having all my movie channels.

I like having them choose the movies that are on sometimes. And I'm just like, oh, look, that's on. I like having live sports. I love a little like turn on the TV and it's like, here's the weather in SoCal. And I'm like, what a shock. It's fucking hot and dry. It's actually been quite humid, but go on. But I was very, very, very close.

And you know what D-Day was? Tell me. The red line was tonight. It was 5 p.m. tonight when the bills and the Packers played on Monday at football. And if I didn't have that... You couldn't watch it. I was like, this seems really bad. And I think I might just cut the cord and go to YouTube TV now.

And then they made the deal. Would you like me to live text the game for you in my inimitable style of positivity? Are you going to be watching the Jets tonight? No. But what I wanted to say about the Ben thing, in addition to that, was just that he was talking about the basic mafia-like arrangement that ESPN has had with the cable providers for all these years, with the baked-in assumption that you're going to pay whatever we say you're going to pay because we have sports. And that that was sort of undergirding a lot of

the decisions made by the major media companies over the last few years as they began to siphon off all of their scripted content to streamers and sort of marginalized cable companies, maybe even in advance of what the consumers wanted with the understanding that everybody's going to live with this because we still have the live sports. And that's still going to move this particular needle. And that this moment, this dust up between Charter and Disney, was based on the idea that for the first time

the cable company, in this case, Charter, didn't blink first. And was like what you actually are offering isn't that valuable. Well, possibly a strategic misstep on Bob Eiger's part, to be like, we're getting rid of this TV shit soon. Yeah. Like, it's dragging our company down. And I'm sure Charter was like, oh, but you're still making us pay through the nose for it, though. And not just through the nose.

I think the other detail that came out of that piece that I really appreciated. This is something that I think I was aware of, but again, in the conversation Ben and Bill really brought it out, which is that it wasn't just you're going to pay whatever we want for ESPN because that's where the sports are. It's that, by the way, you're also going to pay for ESPN too and ESPN Classic. and all these other marginal Disney-owned channels that we want to make extra money off of. And what happened today... They got rid of some of those channels.

That's how the deal got done because the Monday Night Football game, congratulations to you, Chris, and your household, will be on Charter. But what won't be on Charter going forward is like Disney Kids and a bunch of other channels that I'm sure have their fans, but broadly are there

because Disney wanted to get more dollars out of companies like Charter. All of this is to say, I am not today's consumer clearly because I was like, how much would you like? Okay. I just want to like push the bruise of my life a little harder today in the comfort of my own home

and watch my potentially overhyped team struggle. Yeah. And then when there's five Eagles national games and you're just like, how much my paying for the right to watch Jags Falcons? Well, I think people should be really, this is riveting because I have, I think, five days left to cancel.

And it's on Thursday. They're on national TV. And then they're on Monday night, I think. the next following the week. Who can say? So basically, can I come over? That's what this was about. You can always come over.

Andy, I don't know if you noticed on Sunday how closely you were paying attention to the advertisements. Well, I think I know where you're going. I mean, I was watching the ads because I love beer. Yeah. And you're invested heavily

in the WeGoV company. Also, Josh Allen, charming. There was a, recurring ad for the Paramount Plus show Lioness that aired throughout the day in which one of the quotes that they run is, quote, absolutely riveting the ringer. Now, I did not get credit for this as an individual, which is fine. But I would like to say that that is what I said about it. Are you sure that was you? So this is an audio quote from the ringer podcast network, potentially said on this podcast.

It was. I said it's absolutely riveting. I remember when I said that. I think you said that on sports card nonsense. I'm pretty sure it wasn't. So you said that. But I wish it had just said the watch the ringer so that you also were responsible for it. So as soon as that ad aired, what was the Slack talk was like where Bill and Jeff like this won't stand?

No, but Anthony Gros and I was like, did you see this? And it's a picture of Morgan Freeman and it says absolutely riveting the ringer. We're sure it's you. It's not. I was like, it's definitely me. and he was just like, ha, ha, ha. I was like, that has to be. It wasn't Mallory.

No. It wasn't Katie Baker. Nope. It has not been written about on the site, nor talked about on the podcast network unless I talk about it. Wow. I talked about it in the big picture. I talk about it on the watch.

This is like if something that that lunatic in Texas, Chip Roy says, he's just like, actually money is space aliens. And then it says, U.S. Congress. Right? Like, that's kind of what this is. Kind of, but I stand by it. I stand by it. Wow.

Congratulations. I do think that everything is about paying it forward. And I think it's about like service, right? You tried with Linus, with me. You tried, we watched two episodes and you said, sir, I can't do it. I can't stomach these advanced interrogation techniques. I was like, sir, thank you for your service. Yeah.

I see where you're going with this. I do just want to ask. Is this your first poll quote that you know of? Do you think you've been pulled? Oh, no. The kid's been pull. quoted before. Have you ever been pull quoted? I'm sorry to put you on the spot in a way that you kind of regret?

Like maybe it was said it. Nope. No. You always stand by? No, I think so. I mean, I don't think that nobody is listening in this show and is going to like hear us talk about a show and we're like absolutely terrible. And then they say absolutely.

Do you know my favorite example of you getting pull quoted was? What's that? There was an issue. I don't know if you saw this. there was an issue of National Geographic in 2015 that had a feature on the ocean. And to sell that issue, they were like, this is dope, Chris Ryan.

And it was, again, it was like rotten tomatoes kind of fudging it because you didn't say ocean, you said the sea. The sea, yeah. Which conjures up different romantic memories. But I was really proud of you for that because a lot of people don't know that about the sea. But I was thinking a lot about, you know,

the lioness was largely a solo project for me. And that's not what this podcast's about. So yesterday, aside from watching Patriots Eagles in the spare moments that I had, which was considerable. I watched the game. I also spent four hours

watching drops of God. Now, are you talking about Cadarius Tony in the Chiefs game? You really watched the show I wanted you to watch? Yes. I'm really touched by this. I got up through the fourth episode. I know that I have not completed the series.

You watched half of the show. Yeah, I watched half of the show. First of all, thank you. You're welcome. This is yet enough. thing you did for me this weekend. Yeah. So I wanted to, you know, I wanted to show, I wanted to model good behavior to you, you know?

So that's how we, by the way, you're right. I am a parent, but that is correct. That is how children learn. So yeah, I wanted to, so I watched that. And then we also watch winning time. So that's what we're going to talk about for this next portion of the show. Unless you had any other news you wanted to hit. Oh, did you want to talk about Brian Hegeland's, like not being able to get L.A.

Confidential 2 off the ground? Kind of. I did. There was a really interesting article and deadline that Andy shared with me that I thought was just like a real hashtag this town kind of thing. My buddy Justin sent me this and I instantly was like, thank you for giving us the material for the last ever episode of the watch. Do you want to talk about this? I do because I don't, I think this is a good like palette cleanser in the sense that like, you know, swishing battery acid is a good palette cleanser because this makes me feel terrible. Yeah.

And I don't really feel like I have anything new to say about it. So Brian Helgeland is one of the most accomplished screen. Murder's probably the last 20, 30 years. He wrote the original LA Confidential Adaptation from the James Elroy novel. Curtis Hanson directed. It was obviously one of the more beloved movies of modern times in a lot of ways.

It's a classic. He's promoting a film, an independent film at Toronto, I believe. So he was kind of giving some off-the-cuff remarks and somehow got onto a story about he and James Elroy going around town pitching what sounds like an absolutely fucking amazing sequel to LA Confidential set during the Patty Hurst era that would have starred Russell Crow. Yeah, Crow and Guy Pearce were back. Yes.

And Chadwick Boseman was going to also appear in this film. So this was, yeah, during the Patty Hurst era, the SLA, the Symbionese Liberation Army is down in L.A., so it's a whole different kind of unrest. Crow and Pierce would be playing obviously aged versions of their characters where they ended up, what happened to them. And this is, Elroy's in on this. This is not Helglin like freelancing and trying to like keep things moving. And Chadwick Bozeman was attached, like he said yes to play a young cop working for Mayor Bradley during this time. And per Helglin, they pitched it to everyone. They went to Warner Brothers first.

And Warner Brothers, again, this is Helglin saying this. So I'm sure this is not verbatim. But Helglin told him, we don't make movies. like this. Warner Brothers told Helder and he's describing how James Elroy, who is a character? Yes.

Is like a, quote, performance artist and doing the pitch. He then says that when they made it to Netflix, that the Netflix, at least one executive at Netflix, fell asleep during the pitch. Defeated, Helglin says, quote, I got home and said,

well, we can't do that anymore. That's kind of how I felt too, reading this. Now, look, this is, obviously the writer's perspective. And we don't really, I don't really know when this. Well, I was going to say, obviously if Chadwick-Boseman, like, this is... We can date this, I would say probably...

17, 16? Yeah, it's post-netflix is a streaming colossus. Post-Netflix wants to make movies. So I would say this is probably somewhere 15 to 20 range in that five-year period. And that's really depressing. There's nothing news in this, but it is just something that I, these drums should continue to be beaten because whether or not that movie would have been good or as good as the original, if you are a creative executive in this town, have the balls to say yes to this.

You kind of have to. If you want a future, probably not your company, you got to take that risk. But to have a future making movies or making the movies that inspired you to do it, you have to say yes sometimes. I wonder how the actual ownership of the LA confidential material, I mean, he says they had to go to Warner Brothers first because and he's obviously pitching it as a film and not a series. That's right. Which I love. I do wonder whether or not in 2023 if you

said I'd like to make LA Confidential a sequel to LA Confidential and the Elroy Universe as a prestige series, whether it would have more takers. I don't think so. I think sadly no because I don't think, I mean someone comes back at you and is like, so it's

Perry Mason, which we loved. But again, that's not a one-to-one comparison. But I don't know what stars have to align literal stars, but also just in terms of the particular moments to get something like this through. Is it the right cast? Is it the right network? Is it the right package? The other thing that's not explained here and might be relevant to it is that if Warner Brothers controlled the underlying IP, the tenor of the story could be different, meaning it could have ultimately been a frustrating business decision, which is to say they went to Warner Brothers and someone with Warner Brothers said, not in a castigate, manner said, we don't make movies like this anymore. And then what's not quoted is him saying,

but as the studio, we could partner with someone. It sounds like something that Netflix might do because they're trying to break into movies and we could co-pro it. And then they go to Netflix. Netflix is like, that's not what we're trying to do right now. We don't like the numbers that Warner is saying we have to, you know, things get bogged down there. So it is never as simple as the screenwriter being like, this great injustice has been. Yeah, I mean, there's no shortage of amazing unmade project stories out there. Like, obviously during tar, I think we all had a ton of fun, like, listening to Todd Field interviews where he's like, oh, yeah, then there was a movie I was going to make with Joan

Diddyn, but nobody wanted it. And you're just like, what the fuck? Like, are you serious? Like, nobody wanted to make the Joan Didian Todd Field movie. And I think that was with, also with Kate Blanchett. I think that was the first thing. Yeah. Look, yes, you could make, you could spend the rest of your career and probably do a good

podcast just talking about stuff that didn't get made. And how cool it would have or could have been. It's just reading the story at this moment when things seem pretty bleak. Like, I just, if and when these strikes end, no, they will end. But, like, I will be very curious six months after that date to see, like, has anyone learned anything? And is anyone taking any kind of chance? Because I don't know. I mean, I think that for as much as everyone is eager for the end of this, me as much as anyone else,

I think there's going to be a pretty rough reconstruction period. And we don't really know what that's going to look like. And I can't imagine coming out of this bruising time that the dominant ethos in the boardrooms is going to be like, let's take chances. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant.

18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can.

actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er.

Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. I want to talk to you a little bit about winning time coming out of this conversation that we're having it about a movie that never got made. I think we could do winning. Let's do drops of God at the end because I feel very... I want to talk about winning time specifically because you know, I did not care for last night's episode.

very much. And it might be it is the penultimate episode of the season and Jeff Pearlman, who's book, The Winning Time, is based on and is essentially the only person really like kind of pushing the show because of the strikes has been pretty vocal about the need for viewers and that

you know, if we want a third season of winning time, the numbers need to go up. I wonder whether or not this is a really good example of all the best intentions in the world going into something that ultimately wasn't not ill-conceived because I think

the first season was really enjoyable and there have been parts of the second season that have had I've liked some things about the second season but everything that I think is wrong about this show was happening last night in last night's Sunday night's episode. Now for people who maybe haven't been watching Winning Time but are still listening to the podcast or whatever I just think I'll say that

winning times flaws right now are that I think it's spread too thin and among too many characters and kind of making sure to check in on too many different storylines that the show has started, regardless of how germane they are to the story that the show is trying to tell. I would even say a little more pointedly, which is to say, in the second season, the story that the show wants to tell seems to be a heroic story of actual history. There does not seem to be any pretense anymore to be like, here's something you didn't know.

or here's a different way to look at it through the lens of history. It is entirely the Lakers are the good guys and they're going to do their best to scratch and claw over the mountain. Right. And there are some funny, you know,

little like in the moment they thought they were trading for some seven foot Swedish backup, but they actually get Byron Scott as like an add-on to the deal for Norm Nixon and there's some like cool history stuff like that. I also think a really good example of what I'm trying to illustrate here is like

there have now been probably more than a dozen scenes in this season of Magic Johnson and his wife to be Cookie talking on the phone. And it serves both as a kind of like Greek chorus to kind of talk about where the Lakers are at any given point, but it's also, I find to be a maddeningly repetitive scene that they have gone back to so many times.

And it's either because this is how Magic and Cookie really used to talk on the phone and they wanted to like be they honor that story or it's just a like a kind of lack of narrative imagination to kind of stall these episodes just as they get momentum

and we stop for what are very long conversations between magic and cookie that I really feel like take the kind of momentum out of the show and it's really interesting because I think that there is a brilliant show in this idea and I think that there is some

absolutely gripping filmmaking going on sometimes and that there are some really good performances in this show. But I think that this should have been HBO's the crown. It should have been something that was conceived of as a decade-spanning series rather than the real story of the Showtime Lakers. And one thing that is evident in this episode

that just aired last night, beat LA, it's called, is these massive swings in time jumps. It was wild. Which to go through what was essentially starting to feel like in the first season, it was like, okay, they're going to do a season of TV for a season of the NBA. That sure will take a while to get to 1984, but that's cool. And then all of a sudden in this season, we essentially jump a year and a half ahead. In this episode?

Yeah. Yes. Yes. we jump a year and half in this episode and nothing has changed for any of these people. It sort of, it's like proof of concept that the concept isn't that good. If we spend the first season going behind

underneath the hood of Magic Johnson being like, oh, the legend that exists today and this beloved superstar, this is the raw, unformed kid that came into the league and his relationships and his love of women and his needing to learn to share the ball and all these things.

So, okay, well, that's interesting, at least. I mean, again, for people like Chris who noted last week. This is not a poll quote yet in an ad for the NBA, but quote, I know basketball, the ringer. This might not have been a surprise for you, but at least it added some shading and some nuance to the character. The last year and a half of his life, apparently,

were completely unnoteworthy. He's still just playing basketball, and no one seems to have an opinion about him or his greatness. And it's exactly, like the way it's positive is exactly in the same place in the team that he was. after they lose to Philadelphia. They have nothing has changed. No egos have been checked.

No playing style has changed. Also, the camera, the storytelling lens of the show has this very weird telescoping effect where we no longer have any macro view of like, has he changed the game? Is he beloved? Is he feared? Is he respected?

We don't know anymore because he's still just sitting in the same place in the locker room, having the same middling, mid-relations with everyone on the team. and calling Cookie on the phone. Now, this also speaks to the essential flaw of the show, which is Magic and Cookie Johnson did not get married until 1991.

Yeah. Sorry to spoil that for people who are like, oh, he proposed. Everything's going to be great now. The show's slavish fealty to the historical record, like with many historical shows that are created without any imagination beyond, let's just make everything fiction. Like, let me not make everything fiction.

Let's just fictionalize everything and just do, you know, like dinner theater of history, you're stuck. You're stuck with the record, and that's just what you're going to have to deal with. I'm with you, especially in the contrast with last week, because last week was a pretty entertaining episode of television. We're not sitting here being like, winning time is as good as succession or any of the other shows that we love or hold in high esteem, but at its best, this is an extremely entertaining exercise that is HBO just through the bank at, and so you get the results.

also this Pat Riley story has some humanity and pathos and Adrian Brody is great. Yeah. I love that episode. By contrast, this is one of the weakest episodes of a show that we have been watching in quite some time. Yeah. I was, jaw was on the floor, honestly, because you just take it out of context. Now, I'm not a David Simon guy where, like, oh, episodes don't matter. They're just chapters in a book.

But what was this episode even? Well, I think that that... What was the shape of it? What was the story of it? What was the point of it? Other than... I think it was to race to, like, an endpoint. It was to race to an endpoint.

And you could feel that. And when you are feeling that, you were robbing everyone. You're robbing the audience. You're robbing the creative team who don't have room to, you know, to do more interesting things or more interesting scenes. Yeah, you rob us of Pat Riley becoming Pat Riley.

Devon Nixon, who plays his father on the show, is one of the best performers on the show, I think, is off the show now. He gets a very quick coda, quick send-off. You end up in very very, up in very weird places where Jerry Buss is now, other than magic, the de facto hero of the show. And so the revelation that he has married a girlfriend, but not told her that he's already married.

Right. And we leave the scene feeling sorry for him. Like, we are from his perspective, that this is unfair. It took me multiple times to get that his, like, her reference to like, you're already married is not a dig at him about being married to the Lakers. That's what I thought it was too. But in fact, it's like, oh, I guess he just didn't divorce his first wife. Well, Honey is also a fictional.

character, which is another weird thing. And I don't know what this lawsuit or if there was like a, I'm assuming that there was some sort of lawsuit that would possibly cost him the Lakers at some point. And right, and that if that lawsuit existed and was settled, that real person wouldn't want to be fictionalized in a television show. So it's a composite character or representative of how he handled his personal life. But again, it's the framing that like he's the hero here when a more nuanced or more interesting or more objective show would be like, this was a complicated guy.

And I think the first season was more interested in doing that, but you get so caught up in that downhill race towards the historical things you want to talk about. You end up with, and I think the low point was the eight minutes on screen where Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, arguably the greatest player of all time, certainly top three by any metric, including those of our boss, right, goes from being an aloof intellectual who disdains the sport of basketball, everything other than the purity of the game itself. Yeah, he wants out of...

L.A. He wants out of L.A., but also he dismisses any attempts to pander as like shucking and jiving and dancing. He doesn't want to be a coach in this league. He wants nothing to do with any of it. To three wide-eyed children hand him a Herbie Hancock record and he delivers the Battle of Aschencourt St. Swithensday speech to his teammates to rally them to the title because suddenly he realizes that basketball players mean something to people.

That is insulting, right? Like, it's insulting as an entertainment. For us. But I think it's also, the first season, when real-life people were like, that's not how it was. I'm like, well, yeah, nobody wants to be portrayed the way Magic Johnson was portrayed in the first season as sleeping with anything that moves. Like, I get that. Whether it's true or not, that's a secondary conversation. But this is unfair to Kareem, who is just like a legend and a genius.

And even if I didn't like him or care from personally, that turn is so facile. You know, there's two things I really wanted to address. Yeah. One is like when you watch sports dramas or dramatized sports stories, typically the best ones are the ones that are kind of happening on the margins. Yes. It is something like Slapshot, you know, where it's like, I mean, this doesn't have to be like real sports. I mean, I'm talking about like, why is it that people beloved, like movies like Slapshot or Bull Durham are beloved? because we fill in the characters.

Crash Davis isn't something that we're like, I already have a relationship to Crash Davis. No, this is like a recognizable trope of the guy who had it all but never was able to put it together and is now overstayed his welcome at his station of life. Or Slapshot, same kind of thing, rough and tumbled blue collar guys

who are hanging on to a childhood dream of playing sports but are living in a dying factory town. Or my favorite example, the classic film Celtic Pride, which is just about two, every guy, Celtic fans who, in an attempt to swing the season, kidnap the starting point guard of the Utah Jazz.

Right. Just adjacent. Right. You know, then there are movies like Moneyball, which I think a lot of people had factual problems with in terms of its representation of what happened in that historic Oakland A's season, because they were like, well, it was Billy Beam, but he also had like a once-in-a-generation pitching staff

and Johnny Damon and Terrence Long and Jermaine and I were really good. The players he was betting on were good. Yeah, but it wasn't just like Scott Hatterberg was like out of nowhere, became Babe Ruth because Billy Bean understood something no one else did. It was like he also had some really good players on the A's. They are not in the movie because it doesn't go towards the narrative of what they're trying to say. But it's still as dramatizing something that people normally don't see, which is front office stuff.

This is the issue with what they're trying to do, is they are trying to tell a complete story about several of the biggest figures in the history of a sport and they can't decide whose show it is. And there is a version of this show where the authorship of the Lakers is what this is about

and it's about Buss and Riley. Yes. And I think that's probably the best version of the show that they could have done unless they were going to do something that was like three decades of the Los Angeles Lakers, going from Magic and Cream to Shaq and Kobe to LeBron. But then, again, like, I think we are pointing to so smartly is,

I say this anytime we talk about, you know, the early decisions that really define what a show can be. And one of the earliest decisions that any creator has to consider is, if you're given the keys to do this job, what can be daunting is that you can take it, anywhere. So the most important decision early is putting down your fence posts and being like, I understand that this show could be this or could be that. It would be fun to explore this other thing. But we're going to focus here. This is our patch. And we're going to stay within that.

And if you decide early on, to your point that this is going to be like the crown, but for the NBA, focused on the Lakers, then you sketch out in advance the three seasons and then you can then steer the story towards the pillars of theme that you want to hit. And then you could be telling a story that would be larger than the sum of its easily Wikipediaed parts. Meaning when Magic was drafted, the League and America was like this. And when Shaq and Kobe won their final title, the League in America was like this. That is a pretty wide fence. That's like, what's Taylor Sheridan's Ranch?

Like, that's the type of acreage we're talking about. But at least you have a sense of it. and you can steer, you can pour your story into it. This show is trying to do all of the story about something that is known without any of the other stuff. And we keep talking about, look, I don't think that Adam McKay is some like wise shaman who knows how to do storytelling on a different level. I don't even know if his version of the show when he was more involved would have worked. But the first episode, leading even a little bit to two and three and some of it, like a hangover effect throughout the season, was interested in talking about the NBA through a race.

racial and cultural prism. Yeah, and I think it was also a little bit to grab another, I think it was like a little bit more racy. I think it was a little bit more deflating the mythology around the Lakers. Yes. Like those opening episodes paint a picture of professional athletes. That's a little bit more like, hey, behind the scenes, this is what it was like. It's just shocking to me how reductive it's become.

Like, why are you including any of the Celtic stuff if they're just to be? be the villain. Like that, and now, again, I want to be clear. I want to be clear about something. I want this to be the poll quote. The Celtics are the villains in most of my life in almost any context. But, except for that great movie Celtic Pride, which really put a different perspective on it for me. But, like, Michael Chickles is giving a nice performance as Red Auerbach.

Or imitation or whatever he's doing. But he really just shows up to smoke a cigar. By the way, he wasn't coaching the team, but the show doesn't say. He's just around. Yeah. He's around. But his words or his role or anything about the narrative is irrelevant because what his role in the show is now is just to be like,

his words to bus really bothered bus. Bus is going to show him. Who cares about one millionaire beating another one? That's not a show. That's not interesting. What would have been interesting would have been a show that was aware. Now we're just railing on it. Maybe it's unfair because I still.

Well, this actually gets to the whole like, Are you angry at the show it is or the angry at the show that it could have been? And like, are we doing our thing where we're getting upset about the choices it didn't make? See, I do want to pull back because I think I'm going there because the limit, the weakness of last night. But no, but the weaknesses of last night made me upset about what it could have been. But the strengths of last week made all that go away. There wasn't a moment during the Pat Riley episode where I wasn't aware of all the other missed opportunities or things that I kind of would personally would be interested in seeing.

But I was also very much a piece of it because this was a well-made entertaining episode of television. That really solves a lot of problems. Well, the thing with, you know, what I was saying about the crown wasn't, and I, this is the kind of thing where it's like, I think one of the reasons why you and I have continued to talk about winning time, aside from the fact that there's not a ton on, is that the subject matter really interests us.

The highs of the show are really high. The floor of the show is now dropped quite a bit. I'm also interested in as a TV business story watching something that I thought. I was like, this is going to be huge. So many people like the NBA and the Lakers and have HBO are going to want to watch this. Frankly, in a similar spirit to like, we already know everyone like zombie shows. Right, Last of Us. But HBO is going to do their version of it, and they are going to elevate it and put it in a different type of tier of conversation, which worked for Last of Us.

People take it. People talk about it. Will you be watching Walking Dead Daryl Dixon? I wanted to ask you about that. If he goes to Europe, that's what got me. I have very few remaining questions about the world of the Walking Dead. But one of them has always been. Maybe we should fire up Daryl Dixon for Thursday. I was going to surprise you with that suggestion. I saw that trailer and I was like, this seems fine.

Look at us. This seems fine. Look at us. Kaya said we couldn't keep going. And here we are. All right. So the reason why I brought up the crown wasn't like, you should make a big show that's really well rewarded during award season.

It was the way the crown picks, it's episode selections, where it picks certain moments and time to be reflective of the larger story. The larger story. Exactly. And that you trust the audience to be able to piece together, oh, okay, Elizabeth is talking about this in the scene or Diana is talking about this in the scene or whatever is, you know, happening. And I do wonder whether or not, in retrospect, you could have taken 12, 20 events over the course of four years. and moved through time a little bit more fleet-footedly that way without it feeling like, wait a second, Paul Westside got fired in the last episode,

and now we are going into the 1984 finals in the end of this episode. That's crazy. Yeah, because it also either every game matters or it doesn't, and it's very hard to stay aligned with a show that keeps moving the goalposts or the basket, I guess, in this sports. Keep moving the stanchion. I think you made a good point also by observing that, like,

much like reservation dogs, like these are the shows that are on right now that we're talking about. So they are getting a different level of rigor in our watching. Like, winning time. I do think last night was egregious, frankly. So that's why I'm feeling stronger about it. It'll be fascinating to see what happens in this next week when they air the finale. I think of the season, what kind of news we get about renewals or not.

yeah I I would be lying if I had any insight into that I don't know what they're I don't know what their metrics are for like what they spend what they get back and what confidence they have in it creatively going forward I don't know which is a bummer because it's when it's good it's fun let's move on to stuff we like yeah drops of God's great really I wouldn't I don't know that it's like I think that I'm starting to ruin my palate a little bit with with some of the TV that I've been watching where I kind of need to be I don't know that it's like I think that I'm starting to ruin my palate a little bit with with some of the TV that I've been watching where I kind of need to. a certain amount of like the stakes need to be like kind of life or death for me to get up in the morning. Thank you Taylor Sheridan for what you've done to me. But it was actually really refreshing

to watch something where that wasn't the case. You know, that even though there is life and death in this show, that it had just sort of its own tempo, its own honestly flavor profile. Am I doing this right?

You're doing wonderful. And can you? Can you give our listeners just like a little bit of a recap of the sort of creative team in the origin story of this show? I will. I got to be honest, I'm a little bit dazzled here because, you know, up till now, I thought we were only going to cover one kind of like rough and tumble every man's journey into Europe. And that would have been Daryl Dixon. Or Ryan Rissolo's two and a half hour Spain monologue. I'm saving that. Is it really a solo pod? Did he have a good time? It is as solo as it can possibly be.

And was his trip solo? Yes. And did he have a good time? TBD. I'm one hour and 15. 15 in. Where is here? One of the great performances I've ever experienced is this podcast. I'm really excited about this.

Okay. So Drops of God is a manga series. It's published obviously and it's original Japanese and it is about wine. And in that, like, there's a long tradition of Japanese manga that are like incredibly, incredibly geeky and technical about particular subject matters. There's one that I love that's been translated called Oishin. which is just a phenomenal series about food. This series, to its credit, does not adapt that series exactly.

I believe the Camille character is invented for the show, and it takes more of some of the underlying premise of the manga and opens it up from there. So the series, which is a French-Japanese co-production, and it had me at French-Japanese co-production, is about a legendary wine expert. kind of like a cooler Robert Parker,

I would say, for those in the know. Okay. And this is Alexander Leger, right? Yes, who published a guide, basically one potentially crankier, idiosyncratic man's opinion about the wines of the world. It shattered like the paradigm of the wine world.

Because of what he valued. And, right, because he has no tolerance for history or reputation and is willing to follow what he believes to be the correct way to do things. And that was a sensational success. Upended the wine of the very high-bound wine world and made him a very rich man and a big celebrity. At the beginning of the series, he is, I don't think this is a spoiler to say, he is close to the end and dies. And word reaches

his estranged daughter, Camille. Has this spoken during 10 years. She's living in France with her mother and has published a book, but has a very odd condition considering her family history, which is it's not just that she doesn't drink. It's not just that she has a distaste for alcohol. It's that if the slightest whiff of an alcoholic beverage crosses her lips, she has kind of a psychedelic seizure freak out. And a massive noseble. And a massive noseble. This is not super convenient because her mysterious father in his last dying wishes has sent a private jet to pick her up in France to take her back to Japan where he's been living for the last decade plus of his life. And then her inheritance is basically to be to enter into this competition for her father's legacy estate and most crucially

and we should mention it's a the sort of in his last will he leaves a seven million dollar apartment in Tokyo and a $148 million valued wine collection. Like the greatest in the world. But to get that, she needs to face off against her father's prize pupil in anology. Yes. This guy Isay Tomene, who is sort of the black sheep sign of a very rich Japanese business family who want him to behave a certain way and be interested in certain things. But his passion is wine and viticulture.

and he was Alexander's star pupil. And so they are pitted against each other in a contest that will go from Tokyo to Italy, back to France, back to Tokyo. The frequent flyer miles are bananas. The PJ is, the PJ Life must change jet lag profoundly. They seem great, honestly, throughout. Because she is like off the jet,

Paris, Tokyo, Tokyo back to like Provence or wherever she's flying, and is like at a restaurant, bag still in hand. But do you know why she's doing so well? Because she's, unlike us, is not about that Heinick in its, 30,000 feet life. At least in the early going at the show. That's probably why she's fine. So the show is a contest.

And it does have a bunch of flashbacks, shows the history of these characters and families. It is just, frankly, I mean, I think it's an ingenious structure because it is truly, truly smart and passionate about the subject it's covering. You cannot make the show the way that the creators did without actually knowing a little bit about wine

or being interested in wine. Also, honestly, you could try to make this as a movie, but it does actually lend itself. It's a very viable, like, viable, long-form story. Yes, and I think that that, but the kind of magical thing about it, the magical thing about it to me is that you couldn't make it unless you did, if you didn't care about wine, but you can watch it and not know about wine. Yeah, because what conveys is the passion and the creativity and the individuality and the legacy. And so in the early going, one of the things that kind of bump me and then drew me in

was that the way the show illustrates Camille's uncanny ability to identify smell and taste. And she's like, it'll cut to the actress walking through like a dusty library where she's sniffing things or smelling things or uses color on the screen to suggest what she's, and that's just fun. It's just illustrating something that can't otherwise really be illustrated for TV. Daredevil. It's just like Daredevil. Do you mean the new Daredevil series or like the way that?

he would be able to hear crime. Yeah. I like you when you just secretly still remember some stuff about characters you don't care about. That was always chill when he would just like sit on a roof and be like, ah. Crime is happening. I hear a robbery.

The creator of the show is Kwok Dong Tron, who is a French TV creator. He worked on one of my favorite French shows, called My Agent. The show is made in three languages, maybe even four sometimes. It is the most internationally geared show I can remember since 0-00, where somebody was like, you know it would be cool,

is if we made a Mexican, Italian, American cocaine saga, and this is let's get Tokyo and Paris on camera. That sounds like a good idea. And we will really film in these places, and they will look amazing. And subtitles are on for English, even when the characters speak English, which they do often. One fun thing about that on your Apple TV Plus is that, I don't know if this happened for you,

is that every episode for me began with a banging trailer for invasion. or Invasion in French, which fully dubbed. Sometimes I was having some issues with my Apple TV the other day and I clicked back a couple of times and it turned on voice activation. And when you do that,

it starts describing everything that's happening. Max, HBO, winning time, season two, episode three, Magic Johnson, it has a conversation with Cookie. That's actually the episode, I believe. That's weird that you did that. That's how I remember the episode.

That was just our podcast. So, look, the way you feel about enhanced interrogation techniques is how I feel about beautiful wines from around the world. Yeah. So I was going to ask you, was there ever a moment where something that seems to be made in a lab for you actually, like, felt off at all because you yourself know a lot about wine and know a lot about this culture going into it? Like, are you like, it has a higher bar to satisfy me? because this is already a passion. I know what you mean, like in the sense

where like familiarity makes you nitpick in a different way? I think because that happens to me all the time. When you watch shows about like Navy Seals. Well, no, but like for instance, like Bill and I will often talk about like movies on rewatchables or whatever. Or even on Big Picture we talked about this too, where it's like you have like,

you're either, whether your expectations are too high or they seem to make something that you like, you were like, did you scrape this from my brain? Right. And we were talking about the film American Gangster, which I think is like, drastically improved in the year since it has come out, but at the moment was like,

oh, this isn't, like, I thought Ridley Scott, Russell Crow and Denzel Washington, Steve Zalien, we're going to make a perfect like Sydney Lumet car movie, and it just didn't do it. Oh, I know what you mean. I think that, though, in this case, it's all about what the point of view is and what the creators prioritize.

And I think again and again, what they prioritized was the family drama. And also, and this is actually how I feel about food and wine generally, which is not that like the secret ingredient is love, but that like to understand what makes something good and what the subjectivity of that can come from, you have to understand where it's from and who's making it. And the story is as important as the taste, quite frankly. And this show never loses sight of that. So it doesn't get into the weeds really of the 13 or 14 grape varietals that go into a shot enough to pop or whatever that comes up later.

That's a spoiler. That's a good job. Sorry. What it does is just like, like, why is she so motivated to do it? What would it mean for her to do this? You know, the characters on the show have a superpower, but they don't feel particularly, like, it's not like it's helping them. They're all a little odd,

and they just speak a different language in addition to the other languages on the show. I think if anything, the one thing that might trip people up isn't the subject matter. It's just that, you know, broadly speaking, this is the thing of international productions. if you're filming in Tokyo

and you need people from all over the world who can also speak English, you are not necessarily getting... Are you talking about Luca Ingleese? I am talking about Luca Inglase. I think I've said this on the podcast before. I don't mean to harp on it. The guy sells it.

He's probably a very good actor in his native Italian. But there are moments when people are... Camille, why would you choose to do this thing? And it's just like, okay. I like the fact that the multiple languages used in the show are actually a feature not a bug. And that one of the themes of the show is, there's the scientific element

of being able to identify certain things, and then there is the poetic element of being able to describe them. And Isay is challenged early on when he's going in. So he's basically like this almost savant when it comes to being able to identify and select wines. And he goes in to do an interview

at a major restaurant corporation. And they're like, you know, we don't know about you, you're inexperienced, so we've come up with a test of our own. This is when he's just entering this test. And they're like, can you identify this wine? And he just smells it four times and nails it. Yes. Nails not just the grape varietal, but like the winemaker and the whole card, the whole index card he gets it. And they're like, yeah, nice job, but you didn't describe it. And he was like, well, that's because you didn't ask me to. And that's the way you feel about basketball. You name this the stats and box score. That's me.

But I thought that it was like a really interesting, not only were their cultural differences about like task oriented or or poetically oriented. And I thought it was fascinating to this sort of what are the limits of your expertise? Are your expertise largely like science based? Are they largely experiential? Are they prone to flights of fancy or are you all about like ones and zeros when it comes down to certain things? And I think that the language barriers, the different characters experience and I've watched four episodes. So I got to get to the point where I think you learn a lot more about the connection between Camille and Isay that may or may not exist. Do you sound this for the flashback episode? Yeah. It's when you get Alexander and Issa's parents' story about their kind of crisscrossing. One of the other things I thought was fascinating is the, you know, maybe it's not suspension disbelief, but like, okay, this story that is happening in the show is being covered in Japan

Like it's huge news, yes. It's the game seven of the NBA finals every day, where they're like interviewing them, paparazzi is following them around. Do you think that that would be, I guess if it was for $150 million, I would be interested, but I don't know if I would be checking it,

like, what's up with the Wagner group? You know? Like, do you feel like that was, like, it's unlikely that it would be covered that way? I just feel like, is it a slow news week? in Japan? Like, what's going on? Well, I can't speak to the way news gets covered in Japan, you know? I am an expert on our changing media landscape. But for me, I thought that the angle was more like this already kind of famous business family. And she and her own right is supposed to be somewhat

famous because of her book, but has never done another one, right? Yes. I think it's also, but I think it's more like, it's not about wine being important. It's about like this guy is going to become 100 millionaire, like, based off of something. But, you know, maybe it was a slow newsday. I don't know. So where's your, after watching the whole season for you, are you feeling like this is a top five show for you? Is it a show that you really like, but under, like, what's your kind of so objective

viewpoint on it? It's hard to have an objective viewpoint on it because I love this show. It'll, I would be shocked if it was not in my top 10 for the year. I am also not blind to some of its failings. Like, I think that there is... I think it's very deliberately paced. It's deliberately paced, but also the plotting is quite deliberate in that, like, this happens and then this happens.

And I will say that I found... I don't want to have people... I don't want to convince people not to watch it, but I found the end to be... Not a letdown, but there were not twists and turns. I will put it that way. And I kind of wish there were. But for me, it's more of an example of...

It's hard to use this as an exemplar of what TV should be because this is... I honestly can't believe it got made by Apple. Well, I think Apple picked it... Like, someone funded this. Yeah, I just like, I'm almost like, this is wild. Yes, it is not for everyone. It is not...

You can't get LA Confidential 2 off the ground. But this can't. But that's the international aspect of it. It's the Apple part of it. So much of this is timing. The international piece. The international piece is key. Shout out to Fiba.

The global piece. You do need a big man in a different way, as it turns out, globally. These are the projects that I'm happy can still get made. Me too. Because I think it's beautiful and it's thoughtful and it's tasteful and it's just a lovely, lovely experience. It is also not, what's the word our friends in Silicon Valley say? I don't know what the, I don't know how there could be a second. season, I don't know what the drops of God expanded universe could look like, but it does suggest

a place for, this is not some niche thing, right? Even though it's about wine, you know, I think that this type of storytelling could be quite popular internationally because it is, to your point, it's deliberative, the emotional family stuff is not breaking any new ground. It's quite old-fashioned in a lot of ways. It just really cares about its characters and cares about its subject matter in a way that makes, I mean, now I'm sounding, pull this quote, it makes you smile. Well, there's like a way in which they do,

they shoot scenes. You're saying like, oh, I wish there were some more surprises. I think there's a lot of scenes when you see that 56, 57 minute runtime. Yes. Where it's like, she gets out of the car. She walks down the hallway. She walks into the restaurant.

Someone pulls out her chair. She sits down and then the scene starts. And it's like, is it awesome to look at this, really nice car, a beautiful shot of Tokyo, her entering a gorgeous restaurant, walking down a lovely hallway and sitting down at this table? Yes. Would another version of this show be like,

and now she's sitting at the table? Right. Yes. Yeah. And then you find out that the entire restaurant is just like a false flag op set up by the Japanese government to discredit the French winemaker's French daughter to bring the victory home.

Zoe orders the drone strike. This is right, right? I'm really glad I checked it out. I will finish it. Did it change or affect your opinions about wine in any way? Like just from that perspective? No. No.

It hasn't. Did it make you crave a glass of wine? Can I just say I think wine activates my histamines. Because you're not a wine guy. Can I speak freely? Sure. At a restaurant, Chris is kind of like, let's keep the Pilsners coming kind of guy. I like to go cocktail beer at a restaurant.

Yeah. Yeah. And I wish I had more of a taste for wine and I will occasionally drink it. But red especially makes me congested. So do you ascribe to this like sulfites make me ill kind of thing? Do you think you're allergic to something in the wine? Wait, did your father when you were a child make you to force smell and taste and spit? No.

Many wines so that now you can. Are you sure? Is there something here we could unpack? Yeah, I vividly remember it. No. Are you Camille? You remember all of it? I just like, I have yet to.

It's like jazz. You know, it's like one day. happen, but not yet. Or it won't. Yeah. Great seeing you today. I guess we're doing Walking Dead Daryl Dixon on Thursday along with Reservation Dogs. Thanks as always to Kai McMullen for producing us. That's premiered already, right? I believe so. Should I watch it with the French dub?

Just to feel like more authentic to Daryl's experience? Watch it with a cabsab. We'll be back on Thursday. Thanks for listening to the watch.