The Watch - Wonder Woman' and the Success of Comic Book Movies, 'The Leftovers' series finale, and the Current State of Tom Cruise (Ep. 156)

Episode Date: June 6, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald check in on the state of Tom Cruise’s career and the trailer for his upcoming film ‘American Made’ (2:00) before discussing 'Wonder Woman,' what makes a comic book movie work, and Gal Gadot’s performance (13:00). Later, they discuss the epic series finale of 'The Leftovers' and what the series meant to television (32:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Mal and Jason's new podcast, it's binge mode. It's every episode of Game of Thrones. Subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud, or wherever you get your podcasts. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk. Walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I'm atterringer.com and joining me in the studio. He's an above-average man. It's Andy Greenwald. That's how I describe myself. Andy, what's up, man? So much has happened since we last talked, Chris. I went to the cinema. And listen, I know we're going to talk about leftovers.

I know you got a trailer you want to just break minds with. But I have to report something from the front lines. Sure. I went and saw Wonder Woman. Yeah, we're going to talk about it. of our show. I have to tell you something. Yeah.

I went. You know there was all this. No. You're thinking of like what it's like to be around people? No. Okay. The opposite. You know there was quite a kerfuffle about the all women screening of Wonder Woman.

Yeah, yeah. What I want to know is what about the all nobody screening I attended this morning? So nobody was there, huh? Empty seats as far as the eye can see. Monday morning at 10.30. It's a hip time to see a lot of best. I mean, I think that the thing with L.A. is that you see a lot of people like hanging out at coffee shops during the day and it's unclear, like, are they gainfully employed or are they writing?

You know what my in-laws like to say when they visit? Who are these people? Do they have jobs? That's nice. Your in-laws aren't the only people who wonder that. Also, I'm sitting with them at the coffee shop at 1030 a.m. Interior coffee shop. Go on. Explain Los Angeles to our listeners before we get into it. No, it's not a take. I went yesterday to Wonder Woman at 1130, and it was pretty well attended, but it was a Sunday, you know? Yeah, as a weekend. But I saw a movie. This is the first, can I be honest with you guys? I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to the people. This is the first film I've seen since Dr. Strange.

That's fucking crazy, man. That's so wild. Does your wife ever take me to the movies? She would love to go to a movie. Oh. But we don't do that. Why? Because you're too busy in deep studying prayer?

Well, we can't bring the little one. You know, we have the two, so we have the baby one that can't come to a movie. She's almost as old with the kid in Logan now. She definitely has the attitude. But also, here's the bigger one. We get a babysitter. This is such a fascinating podcast. We get a babysitter so infrequently that we don't want to burn those few hours with a movie that might burn us.

Yeah. I mean, and there's so many places to go in Los Angeles where it's small plates. The chef kind of just courses it out as it happens. And, you know, it's like we like to use a lot of local products. And it's shared. Do you know how much time I would waste? Because every restaurant we go to, I mean, we've only lived here. nine months where the waiter says, have you dined with us before? I can't lie. I'm always honest

with servers. And I say no. And then we get the 20-minute spiel. And that's 20 minutes cost. How do you feel about coursing, the state of coursing? I think it's a good idea in theory. I think it is not generally done correctly. Right, right. Like when you go to an Italian place that's like shared plates and they bring you like caccio-pepe before the salad. First of all, you should always be able to split an order of pasta. Sure. That's what it's for. Yeah. But no. We get very little of that. Actually, I kind of like to have my own pasta. No, no, I'm not saying, if you want to have your own pasta, God be with you.

Carb up, my man. But if you're at a restaurant where there's some nice secundi, if you will, then you should be able to say, like, you know, let's split that. Let's split the facility. Yeah, I don't think, I mean, they're always down to give you another friggin plate that they then clear, like, immediately. I don't know. This podcast, I like that we are actively proving to people that they should not listen

to our takes on. millennial blockbuster entertainment. I do want to talk. Speaking of blockbuster entertainment, I know that the mummy is coming out soon. That's like another Tom Cruise blockbuster for summer, and he's had a couple the last few years. I think, you know, it was,

there was two Jack Reachers, there was Rogue Nation. Wait, are we doing the slow buildup now to the Tom Cruise trailer? Let's just tell people. We're going to talk Wonder Woman. We're going to talk about the leftovers finale and all that came with it. I'm excited to talk about that.

I just want to let people know. people those are those are the big ticket items because i just imagine tom cruise you know he's done these these two jack reacher movies he did and what what more does he have to give us at this point and he's got one yeah rogue nation he's got another one in the in the he's no title announced for mission six yet i bet you would tell my six that's just sounds good yeah but ghost proet and rogneche are dope-ass subtitles ghost prodie is pretty pretty tight um also good movies but you know it's been a while since Tom Cruz has... I wouldn't want to say tried,

because if there's one thing you can't say about Tom Cruise is that he doesn't leave it all on the field. And sometimes that means nearly leaving his carcass on the field when he straps himself to a B-52 bomber in... Is that Ghost Prody? America. Oh, no, it's Rogue Nation. Tom Cruise...

Because in Ghost Prody, he climbs the Dubai sky's... Tom Cruise is going to die on the set of a film. Yeah. But, you know, if you die doing what you love, it's like he didn't work... That doesn't work. But... I just think people should know that.

When you do what you love, it's not work. Right. And if you die doing what you love, are you really dead? Let's call Damon Lindel off and find out. Right. But what you're saying is there's a trailer for a new movie. Yeah, American made. He seems to be acting.

Yeah, and it seems like he's back. It is basically if you took Wolf of Wall Street and then started watching that, and we're like, this is pretty good. But what I really want to do is, um... Yeah, that's, that's accurate. It's literally like, it's like someone was watching Narcos and they were like, Boyd Holbrook's pretty good in this, but what if it was Tom Cruise? Yeah.

No, I mean, this character is on Narcos, do you remember? It's Barry Seal, the famous, infamous cocaine cowboy pilot. Dope-ass name. Yeah, and he was working for various government agencies on and off the books and then wound up working with the Medellian cartel. This is one of those trailers, Chris. Now, guys, you know, I came in here, I came from the theater. I've got a case of the Mondays.

I can be honest with it. I feel like I'm being very confessional today. And I walked in here, and you just demanded. that I watched something, changed my day around. Well, because I really, I like Tom Cruise movies, and it's been a minute

since I felt like, in the beginning part of this decade, or the beginning part of the century, rather, Tom Cruise was, we forget. It was quite a run for him from, say, minority report, war of the world,

up to Valky. And I felt like, I wrote about to say. You could just go back four more years and put Jerry McGuire. Oh, yeah. I mean, the 90s, Tom Cruise is like, that goes in a box. He was doing pretty well.

That box goes in the Raiders of Lost Ark Warehouse. But, you know, late, late period, Tom Cruise post night and day, but I actually think it really comes down to Valkyreary, because Valkyrie was a movie that had higher aspirations, given the fact that Kenneth Branagh was in it. Although Brano's having himself a 2017. Oh my God, Poirot. In Dunker?

Imagine Poirot. What a lot to talk about. It had higher aspirations, but it had the rollout of a Tom Cruise blockbuster. I don't know if you remember, but it just felt like they were like Valkyrie. What if, you know, it's like, even though Valkyrie came with the problem, a lot of these historical historical dramas come with, which is that we know the ending. Didn't work. Also took the Wonder Woman path of if they speak English in a slight German accent, they're speaking German.

I want to talk about the Wonder Woman accents. Trust me. Okay. Anyway, American Made, it looks like, I really like Doug Lyman movies, Edge of Tomorrow, Born Identity, Go, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, obviously, just like, he has an ability to make very exciting but very unique blockbusters. Doug Lyman makes good movies. Yes.

It sounds like Doug Lyman might be a bit of a pain in the ass to work for. Yeah, no, all the stories about working on these movies, like how there was no movie, how he shot nine movies, and found the movie. Like, it all sounds fucking crazy. But maybe there aren't that many people that do this that go from that crazy process to making good movies. And I think you're exactly right. What's weird is that he was good at making movies for a while. I mean, Swingers was his first movie. Doug Lyman.

But he does seem to have found a way to work in the blockbuster economy. and still be a talented director and make compelling movies. Edge of Tomorrow is still probably the best blockbuster from the last few years. It's a terrific movie. He has unlocked a kind of, when he works with Cruz, I think he gets the best out of him while still doing like a, the idea of repeatedly killing Tom Cruise in a movie. Yeah.

It was just so hilarious to watch. So Lyman, I think, gets Cruz and he gets the conversation around Cruz. And so I'm excited for this. Let me say one more thing. Great trailer. This is the kind of movie. I wish they always made movies like this. This is just a ton of fun.

But I think the thing to remember in the Tom Cruise economy, you don't make a Tom Cruise movie. Tom Cruise and the movie make you. Yes. And, you know, this is not an industry secret. This is not like insider trading. Tom Cruise is still one of the most powerful people in this industry. And he chooses his projects so that he can choose the projects.

You know, he has, I think, you know, he's like final decision over almost anything. He and all actors, on that level will only try if they feel inspired to or if they trust and respect the person in charge of the movie. That's not pretty, but that's true. So, you know, I think you can basically look at his filmography and decide who he wanted

to try for and who he didn't. And it's exciting just watching this trailer because it looks like he's trying. Yeah, I think it's been so you get movies there's a class of guys, there's a generation of guys who were all in their 50s, early 50s to late 50s, Hank's Cruz, Washington,

who were the biggest movie stars in the world for you and me growing up. And they've all had, I think, difficult late periods where they're trying to understand where they are in the firmament. And, you know, Denzel makes, he'll make fences, but then he'll make Equalizer and Magnificent 7 as well. All of the, and I find Denzel movies generally, like fairly entertaining, no matter what. Because Denzel found, like Tom Cruise, he's found they're the two movies that he can make.

He has the two characters he can play, let's say, because he's always a movie star. He's always Denzel, right? but one of the characters, and it works for him, is like in a Tony Scott movie shooting everybody. Yes. Even if Tony Scott didn't make it. Right. And then the other one is when he is, for lack of a better word, trying in a different way.

When he's going for the best actor belt. Cruz has that mode too where he's either making a Mission Impossible movie and literally dying on screen or he's willing to play ball a little bit. And that doesn't always work for him. Of Cruz, Hanks, and Washington, I think Cruz has had the longest layoff of really going for it. And I think that reminds we think of him as this guy who split the atom between box office success and if not critically lauded, at least critically approved material, like a few good men. And obviously he was great in Magnolia, you know, trying things like Vanilla Sky and Eyes Wide Shut, you know, which were various levels of success. Interview with a vampire.

Yeah. I mean, so he's, it's fun. It's nice to have him back doing material that isn't like pretty superficial. I'm glad we had this conversation because, listen, I go to movies now, so I am all in and engaged. Let's just keep talking movies. Let's keep talking blockbusters. I love it. Let's talk about Wonder Woman. Sean Fantasy lit a fire under me last week coming in on my turf talking about movies.

I can talk about movies, too. Let's set it up a little bit. Because I think that for as much as we're going to talk about the movie, we're also going to talk about D.C. and Warner Brothers and the fact that this has been a topic of conversation for us. We were also going to talk about fourth wave feminism. Do you feel like Senator Ben Sass right now? Is that what's up? No. No, I think that there are a lot of lessons to be learned from Wonder Woman.

That's why I like to go to the movies. And this is the lesson that I know now more so this year and after being in Los Angeles for the five years I've been here. And meeting people who work on movies, even in just kind of like tangential ways. You're connected, you mean? I just understand a little bit better now than I did say 10 years ago. how hard it is to make a good movie. Yeah. And everybody, and most people who make movies having the best intentions when they go into the project.

And yes, there are some that are just like clearly stupid from the outset. Like the emoji movie. Yeah, but then there are like, I don't know, we were joking about Jack Reacher. Like Jack Reacher had good part. There were good parts of Jack Reacher and you could see. I kind of liked it. There was some intention to make like a really hard-boiled 70s thriller. And it just kind of got, you know, jumbled up in the process.

It got Tom Cruise. Yeah. DC has had this issue where there were good ideas underneath a lot of these, Zach Snyder helmed or, you know, since the post-Nolan DC universe, there were a lot of pretty good ideas bubbling around in there, and they just got lost in a variety of different mud pits. And, you know, you think about those DC movies, and a lot of people, I think, I personally always just think of, like, darkness and a lack of clarity and a lack of

energy and verve and zip and Wonder Woman fixed a lot of that I thought I thought like it just really from the beginning when it's like a lovely sunny Greek island to

through the World War I stuff up until like I think the last act it's just like really zips along it has a lot of charm and a lot of energy and basically manages to be dark and about human error,

but also, like, maintain that thing where you're like, superheroes are supposed to be objects of idealism. Yeah. Affirmative object. You know, affirmative character.

Even before we get into the specifics of this movie, what you just said touched off something that I wanted to mention, which is it's very interesting to note that two of the comic book movies that have been considered the most successful across the board have been the period pieces. And I mean the first Captain America

and this Wonder Woman movie. And it's interesting because basically what these movies have done is restored the characters not exactly to the era in which they were invented. Captain America, yes, accurately, was a World War II hero. Wonder Woman was not created in World War I. But in some ways, the spirit that birthed them is present in those movies, and they somehow make more sense. I thought that was sort of interesting,

and I wonder if that's something to explore more in the future of these movies, because as they keep pushing forward more into the present day or even beyond, there's something bumpier about it, about these idealistic figures and then making them coarser or darker to fit the times. And I think that the Snyder movies had a very uneasy relationship to reality. And I don't just mean that, like,

can someone jump from there to there. But real world events. And in slow motion. Yeah, but I think that there was some pretty well-founded negative reaction to the implications of, like, Metropolis being leveled. The 9-11-E aspect of it. Yeah, the 9-11.

And I have the same issue. I feel the same way about some of the Marvel stuff where no Marvel movie can seemingly come off without a spaceship crashing into the Washington Monument. Rare city being destroyed. But, you know, by grounding this character, Wonder Woman, in a very clear narrative of like human... But also far enough away from what we are now

that you can kind of almost look at it in the same idealistic way of normal people standing up to fight something bigger than them? The movie is a success by all metrics. It is clearly a financial success. It's a success in terms of changing perceptions for

female-fronted superhero movies and blockbusters, female-directed superhero movies and blockbusters. Shouts to Patty Jenkins. It works. And I think that what you're speaking to, first and foremost, is that it remarkably, of all those things, those are all difficult things to do,

but to reframe the DC Cinematic Universe and make it feel like something appealing and potentially successful is the most impressive to me because we've slagged on it for years. And a couple months ago, I think I talked, I mentioned on the podcast that I had done an event with Richard Donner, director of Superman and Jeff Johns, who's a comic book writer,

turned basically the de facto head of the DC Cinematic Universe. And Jeff Johns had worked for Dick Donner for many years. They were very close. And I'd met Jeff before, and I knew that what he loved, and his love for DC growing up was the way I felt about Marvel, and he gets it. You know what I mean?

I never really understood the appeal of DC heroes, but he does, and he did, and apparently he does in all the common books that he writes for them. And so I tried to sort of gently ask, like, well, why don't the movies do that? And he never criticized Zach Snyder, certainly, and he never said anything negative

about the movies that existed. But he did say he felt that Wonder Woman was a turning point. And he basically, and the, example he gave me off the record at the time was the no one can cross no man's land well a woman can cross no man's land and just like well that's that's pretty good like that's just in a screenwritery that's pretty good but also you know taking the first word of the superhero and making it the the lynchman of the movie which is a sense of wonder um i was very impressed that they could do it it's suffused with

a deep love of character and of the character's history and stature, but also it's not stodgy in that way in terms of its reverence for her. It kept something that I didn't know was possible in the DC universe, which is the fish out of water type thing. There's Peter Parkery elements of Wonder Woman.

She's a god that she finds out of the movie, but she doesn't know what a watch is. Yeah, and she's like, this ice cream cone's great. Yeah, and I've never had this before. The ice cream cone scene is a terrific scene. It's funny. Last week, when I was talking to you about Castle Rock movies, the thing you mentioned, Castle Rock, the studio from the 90s that made some of the best movies of the 90s, headed by Rob Reiner and Alan Horn.

The scene you mentioned was the ice cream cone scene and in the line of fire. Most people remember the glass elevators, right, or whatever. But you were saying that that movie made time for Clint East Wood and Renee Russo to eat an ice cream cone. Yeah, there was actually, and after you left, I thought about the Bohemian beer scene on the rooftop in Shawshank, which was another. Yeah. Give him a second. There's no time in these movies for anything. And that happens again, like the... I think the movie peaks, honestly,

at the entire Veld sequence of Wonder Woman, where from the approach, which is obviously, you know, quite sad and the insistent... Her, like, wanting to help everybody she sees. It really put the... A lot of the stuff that, like, Superman dealt with in these very, like, sort of operatic, like, ways. It just gave it, like, a very economical,

like, she's going to see a bunch of people and she's going to want to help all of them. And she probably could have helped some of them immediately. But Chris Pine is saying, like, no, there's like this larger thing that we have to conquer. Yeah. And then the trench charge and actually the taking of the town and then the dance sequence and the allowing them to have this like celebration and the U.N. Rebner character singing and like them in teaching her how dance and like the snow. It's like just really, I think if you and I are sounding a little bit more tempered, it's probably I'm speaking for you here. but I know for me, and I've talked about this before,

like I do think I'm aging out of this a little bit. Yeah. And so it's like I'm just aging out of like the kind of connection that you can have to these movies. And frankly, it's been like 12, 14, however long it's been of years where this has been the dominant sort of Lingua Franco of Hollywood. So I'm just getting a little too old for this shit, but that's not, that doesn't dampen my connection to it.

I agree. And I wanted to talk about that scene too, that when everything quietes down for a minute before the buildup to the big finale. And we should also say, hopefully we'll get a chance to talk to him soon. But the screenwriter of this movie is an old friend, Alan Heinberg, who I can't say enough about him as a guy and as a writer, but also he loves this character. I mean, the first thing, I met him at Comic Con in 2004, he loves Wonder Woman.

And so for someone who truly loves and gets the character to be able to do this and then have the room to function and pull off those scenes is a Marvel. That bad choice of words, perhaps. It's a wonder. but what I wanted to say was about that scene. So there's the dance scene and the town and the snow is falling and the character Sammy

who's a great character, great performance, gives them beers. There's a moment in that dialogue where I was just like, okay, this is good. This is just good filmmaking, and it's great performances and it's building what we came before. And there's a little bit,

maybe I'm saying this because I watched this with my family over the weekend, but there's almost like a little bit of Roman holiday. It's one of my favorite movies, and there's a little bit of Roman holiday in this, where it's like,

she's learning about a world and we already know that there's not going to be enough time for whatever reason. And then she has to punch the god of war the next day. And so it's just for me, the thing that I can't get over, it's not just that we're getting too old for it, which is probably true. I'm still having trouble, even after all these years,

accepting that the only place for a Roman holiday type moment is within the superstructure of one of these movies. Yeah, and I feel the same way about The only way Patty Jenkins can make a World War I movie is if it's about Wonder Woman. So, right, so that's the, maybe there's some analogy to be made between, like, him wanting to take the big picture and her wanting to save everyone. But, you know, in the big picture, it's a success for that reason that we got those moments, we got those scenes. But, you know, I still wish we could just make a quieter movie. That said, throw everything away for a second, Galgado is great.

She's great. I did not see Batman v. Superman. I apologize to the world, but not really. I don't care. She's great. I had no idea. She's completely alive on the screen. She's fun to watch.

She's funny. She carried the movie. Chris Pine really is terrific. We joked about giving him too much credit. Yeah, they probably overpaid for Robin Wright and David Thulis. Yo, Robin Wright, this is the role she was born to play. Robin Wright was crazy dope in those first few scenes. It's just this weird thing of good and bad, and maybe that's okay.

I hate the slow down bullet time bullshit. I hate the desaturated color palette. But those opening sequences, as you're talking about, on the island, which is a completely female society, were very moving in a way. Like it was, we have not seen that. Yeah. We have not seen. And it's not just that they were fighting on the battlefield in that way, which is worthy

of its own podcast and discussion and more. It's that when the goddess Connie Nielsen, who's pretty much literally a goddess in this movie leads Diana into the room with a god killer blah blah blah the attendance you know people are always in movies like this people are always leading um novices into rooms guarded by other people the guards were women like these little things these little background parts and that felt different and that gave it a freshness also casting a nearly 60 year old um british man as the god of war inspired yeah thulis is having a year by the way thulis is getting getting money um god bless the older British actor like Kenneth Brano, like David Thuleus, who can be so good, they can just sit a couple decades out and then just come roaring back.

I think that the big thing I would take away from this movie is also that D.C. sort of tried to jumpstart and skip the first five to seven years of this whole thing by putting everybody together as fast as possible. So they did one Superman movie, ups and downs of that. and then it was like Batman versus Superman but with Wonder Woman Suicide Squad with 90 people Then they announced and even had a teaser for Justice League Before I think, I don't know if before Wonder Woman But they definitely even like kind of marketed Justice League

A little harder than Wonder Woman for a while. They did seem to be looking past this for a while And if I would take anything from the success of this film Doing incredibly well at the box office Is that it's okay to just tell one story really well And it's okay for I mean I think I had a lot of trepidation going into this because I just can't do this many more origin stories. But the origin part of Wonder Woman on the island is directly connected to everything that happens for the rest of the movie.

It's not like here's the part where Clark is a baby on Krypton and there's a war between these aliens and then the planet explodes. And then 30 years later he's on a boat in Nova Scotia and then Zod comes back. It's she literally goes off this beach and goes into the war. And like, they wake up and they're in London and that's it. And I thought that the connective tissue was very strong. And I thought that even though the last act and having, you know, Thulis just become a scrap metal master blaster god. That was tough. Yeah.

And it's just like, you must join me and all that shit. It's like, whatever. But the first two thirds of this movie are really, really tight. I also think it's worth saying. There should be no downplaying of the significance of a, again, of a female starring, female focused, female directed action movie dominating at the box office. But if there is a, if I could just put on my slate, 538, whatever hat, I do think there's one under explored aspect of this, which you alluded to, which is people want to feel safe that they're going to have an enclosed experience in the movie theater. I think the connective TV-TVization of movies, it's working at selling tickets, but I think it's being overvalued. I think that, even for me, having not watched the other DC movies,

knowing, and I did do enough reading to know this was going to happen, having the beginning five minutes be in the present day, I was so much more comfortable once we went into the past because I knew we were getting an enclosed story. And that's why the first Captain America was successful as well. You know, it doesn't feel like an obligation. It's the same feeling that I think people are being to backlash against. Like, well, I'd love to watch your TV show,

but I don't know if I have 12 hours in me this weekend to binge it. You know what I mean? let's all take a breath and tell one story well before we tell all the stories. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break here from our sponsors, and then we'll talk about the end of the leftover story. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Casper Mattress. Casper is an obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price.

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Okay, Andy, we are back. Let's talk a little bit about the series finale of the leftovers, which aired last night on the Home Box Office channel. Did. You go first, because I feel like I sucked a lot of the air out of the room for Wonder Woman, so I want to pass the rock. I am incredibly grateful to the show. I just big picture it.

The experience of watching the show over the last three years has been truly unique and amazing for me. In retrospect, I love how much I hated it because then I could come to appreciate it, and that transition alone highlights what I love about TV. That's not really possible in movies, because theoretically it's just one experience. It went places, other shows didn't.

It took risks, other shows never would. And in a way, it felt like a perfect closure to me because my experience watching the finale, I watched it last night. mirrored my experience with the show in general, which is I started watching it and I was curious. I was affected by it. I started to become suspicious. I started to disconnect and get almost actively annoyed. And then in this great rush of emotion, I did a 180 and I was incredibly moved and gratified and satisfied with this as a finale for any number of reasons.

But specifically to track what I'm talking about, it's weird. The Nora Matt stuff at the beginning is going to be almost overlooked because of everything that happened later, but that was just some exceptional writing and acting in and of itself. But the Kevin showing up and lying, basically, but at the time, acting like he had never seen her and all those other things didn't happen, brought back these feelings of, of course, and this I think is intentional because he was exercising demons, the sideways universe season of lost, are we in an alternate dimension, where are we, but also this feeling of that I remember very much from the first season of leftovers is, I don't want to play.

You know when someone's just like, come on, come on, joke around with me, or come on, play a game. Like someone starts throwing a football or whatever, like whether someone would you play a game or a board game or do a bit, and you just kind of don't want to. That was how I felt about the first season of the leftovers. And I felt that during that section keenly, and it was bringing it all back. During the section. During the part where Kevin was... Pretending that.

...into the wedding and, yeah. All the things around it were bespoke and elegant and clever, like the idea of this scapegoat, literally, with the beads. I mean, all of these little details. But I just wasn't feeling it. And then we get the story. and where Nora tells him what happened or what didn't happen. And I thought that was truly astonishing because all you can really, you know, I've said this before,

the finales of TV shows are when they tell you what they are. Because a fiction, on top of the fiction, can exist when we watch one of these series for a long time where the creator thinks they're telling one story, but you maybe are watching it for a different reason. You know, Emily Nussbaum called some people bad fans of Breaking Bad because they thought they were watching an epic about a, like a, like a, this is fucking awesome epic about a criminal when, in fact, it was kind of a repudiation

of what Walter White became, and that was revealed in the finale. Finallies are about the show the creator, you know, they're what the, they show you what the creator wanted to say, and sometimes that leaves you feeling shocked or surprised or, you know, disconnected from the work you were seeing. What that moment showed me was the very best parts of the show were seen and understood by the people making it. This was a show about belief. and the impossibility of belief,

but also the necessity of belief in order to forge connections outside of ourselves. And so the fact that they had this idea of this shadow world, which is so disturbing, you know, it's so haunting. It made me think of Jeff Vandermeer, the author we had on the other week

and Innihilation and Southern Reach trilogy, all of the horror that went unsaid in this story, like the baby from the series premiere, just lying alone crying in a parking lot in a phantom dimension, all of the death that may have come just from that, the airline pilots who disappeared, you know, when 98% of the world vanished and the planes went down.

I mean, it's just impossible. But it's impossible to imagine, but we were allowed to imagine it. And then all of that just to build up to her, and only Carrie Coon could have pulled this off of the many actors on TV. For all of it to be told, to be, we were told about it, we were not shown it. It ultimately doesn't matter if it was true. If your version of the leftovers is it was true, great.

If it wasn't great. And that's what the show was, because what it was really about more than anything else was despite all the lies and the misery and tragedy and misfortune and sex boats, this was a show about these people reaching for each other and holding hands. And it worked. I think it became about that.

Yeah. I would say that I have a lot of admiration for this show, but that my appreciation or my level of, my appreciation for the last few episodes, the Lori episodes, the international assassin. The sequel, the most powerful man in the world

and his identical twin brother. And the finale, we're a little bit tempered. And I do think that it's interesting to read a lot, and Damon talked to us on Thursday, and he was just like, don't click. You know, he was like,

this is your show. Don't let me tell you how to feel about it. And so I say this with like a little bit of trepidation because I probably should follow his advice. And you know he's listening. but I think that there was something about the second season and a little bit about the beginning of the first season that made me

it's not about what I should or shouldn't be paying attention to because I think that really is where viewers make up their mind you show people all these things and you can't really control what parts of a show people are interested in and that's why you see some shows change course and you see some shows emphasize different characters or changed like Parks and Rec, changing the kind of DNA of Leslie in the second season or whatever, make her like a little bit.

Recalibating. Yeah, recalibrating. And I think the leftovers did that too. I mean, it was obviously a very morose show in the first season. Punishing. And then came to life, to use not a very leftovers appropriate term in the second season. And it didn't leave me with unanswered questions as much. I think maybe I was just looking in a different part of the show than the writer's.

So this came true to you. What I was saying was accurate to you too. There was a part of the show that was more interesting to you that was not being paid attention to. Yeah, a little bit. And I think that as the show, for me, the second season, the brilliance of the second season, had to do somewhat with the widening of the scope in terms of the characters. And the way that it started to talk about how this departure kind of brought a new era of the unexplainable to the world and how that affected multiple people. And I really liked the way that

Kevin and Nora fit into a collection of characters rather than, I think that as the season, the third season went down, it became like Kevin and Kevin, no, it's Kevin and Norah's love story. That was actually not, if you would ask me to do a blind taste test on what this show was about for me, I don't think I would have said Kevin and Nora's love story. I completely agree with you about that. That was one I, I'm glad you brought that up because that was the other element of when I started to go a little sour on the finale, was the idea of this one true love story being the story. Other shows have tripped down that as well. I mean, Homeland is an example, a very different show, but one where I just don't, I don't, not only do I not buy the love story is essential, but I just didn't see it coming as the essential thing.

I think that it worked for me in the end because what it was, because the show reminded me something that had always been there, that I had trouble sometimes seeing through whether it was, you know, fall, the fault of the creators or in the fault of me watching it or whatever. But, you know, this idea of the departure, what it really did to these characters, all of them, was in some ways, confirm their worst fears about themselves. Because everyone makes everything about themselves. And that's one of the brilliant things that the show really highlighted when Matt Jameson meets God, in quotes, and then he just talks about himself. So that remember when, and we were reminded of it last night,

when the moment Nora lost her family was a very unmotherly moment when she screamed at her kids because they spilled juice on the cell phone. and then they were gone. And in every moment, anyone, in any one of us, when we do something like towards someone we love, we're like, oh, we don't deserve them. We're going to be punished for that. On some level, we think that, and she was. You know, Kevin never thought he was good at family, and then it all blew up in his face. So the idea of these broken people just reaching out to each other in a way, to me was more about making selfish choice. It's almost that in it of itself as a selfish choice. Kevin went to Australia every year for 15 years trying to find her. And that's the same.

as much about him as it is about her. So I was able to watch it through the prism of their own individual journeys, and then they were the other ones waiting. They were waiting for each other sort of to reach out. You know, it wasn't just about love as romantic love. But there were flaws, and I don't want to pretend that there were. No, no, and I think that what it is is that, you know, I often think about this in terms of, like, just life in general, you know,

where you think about, you and I are sitting at this table, and when this podcast is over, you're going to leave, and the camera's going to follow you. But when I go back to the office, the camera's going to follow me. But only for B-roll from my show. Yeah, right. I mean, I'm just trying to, like, add context and just maybe, like, kind of prop you up a little bit. But, you know, the idea is basically that we're going to be the A-plot of our stories wherever we go for the rest of the day. And I guess Kevin and Nora weren't necessarily the A-plot for me in this show.

I think that I will admit to being very interested in the mechanics and narrative about the departure about the guilty remnant, about the government agency that sprung out out of the departure. Although that is the 5, six, seven season version of the show. I'm sure it is. Once they realize. I'm sure it is. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think ultimately, it was really interesting to listen to Nora's monologue. It's even much more interesting to think about whether it's true. But, you know, we can get into that. But she essentially tells the story of lost from the perspective of people who didn't get on the plane. Yeah. You know, she talks about what it was like the loneliness

of that other place you know um and we watch yeah I think we all want our lives to feel magical and important and that we're in the right place yeah and it's in some ways it's it's interesting because it's like you know if you survive the departure

wouldn't you feel in some ways saved you know and none of these people felt saved they all felt damned to some extent um yeah and I think that for me obviously not most television doesn't make you have these kinds of questions and that's that's a testament to what damon was doing and what those the folks who were writing the show did and i think at the end it was it was very interesting to read some of the stuff and obviously i mean you're listening to this so you care about it but if you don't want to know you should stop but you know damon talks in the vulture piece that uh barris coltrica did uh about the end of this the series yeah about wanting to film bring this up the other world yeah you know and that And that basically, what was even more fascinating is that in the Justin Thru interview today on Vulture, they ask him about Nora's speech.

And he, at one point, his response is like, yeah, if you believe it. If you believe Nora's story. And frankly, it's like you get to the end of this series and you don't, Kevin and Nora are pretty cruel to each other. And I'm not sure that she's telling the truth. Well, a couple things. I want to talk about that Vulture piece. you know, the lying is essential to this episode. I mean, the nun clearly has sex of the guy.

It's just like, no, I didn't. You know, so I think that that's right there. In terms of the flaws that I was going to mention, I think that they needed more episodes this season. I've never argued that. And next time we talk to Damon, let's ask him about it. But, you know, I love that when people are like, let's just bang that in six.

you know, it's better. I think stories, especially on TV, is generally better served by just packing it rather than stretching it. But the biggest flaw for me this season came much earlier. The weakest episode for me

was the day Melbourne when they broke up. I didn't buy that turn. It came, obviously it was all simmering under the surface and all the things they expressed were there written right into the DNA of the characters, but it seemed very sudden

and it felt like it had to happen for whatever was going to happen next. So when you mentioned that being cruel to each other, I was thinking that as maybe the original sin. for whatever flaws I felt when they got back together as this one true pairing later on. To your other point,

this is truly unique and worth mentioning what they did let New York Magazine do. No show has ever done this. No show has ever let a writer into the collaborative creative process to this degree. So they let Boris, they didn't let him in the room in the room. They let him interview everyone who was in the room, and they let him hang out on set in Australia,

and they let him talk to everyone afterwards. than in the post-production. Reading this now, having been in three writers' rooms as a participant myself, it was shocking. It felt like... Jack Reacher. Jack Reacher. Jack Reacher. Never go back. Two, and then the as yet unreleased, Jack Reacher three.

Keep reaching. Keep never stop reaching. But it felt almost like sacrilegious. Because, you know, there's only... When people say, like, okay, so I worked on Legion, Like whose idea was whatever, it was Noah's idea. It doesn't matter. It filters through Noah. It was his show.

That's how it works. And the other thing about that is, honestly, most of the time I don't remember whose idea it was because it's this weird give and take thing. Damon has been so generous, more generous than most, not certainly not all, but than a lot of people in being out there being like, last week he named every person in the writer's room was, you know, like Arias Stark naming her enemies, except literally the opposite. that he let them all shine in this to a degree that was really fascinating and, and I think, generous. But more than anything else, the point that you're talking about was an incredible revelation of his instincts, good and bad, right? Because in this piece, and you guys should all read it, but he says that he came up, he had come up with the idea of the other shadow universe, basically, in the pilot, and it asked Peter Berg to maybe film the disappearing baby from the disappearing baby's perspective, just in case he decided to end the show that way, and they ended up not having time.

but that is a, like I said, haunting, really good idea. That's a million-dollar idea for anything. And then he wanted to show it. And he wanted to show his work and answer questions when this show has been so successful to me anyway, because he never did. And then Tom Perada, who co-created the show but wrote the novel, apparently, said,

absolutely not. Like, laid down the law and was doing 12 Angry Men saying no. And then my buddy Patrick Somerville is credited in this as being like, brokering the piece. And the piece was, she can tell the story, but not show it. It's amazing to me to see that moment,

because for me, the whole show, I've argued before, a finale can never invalidate a show, but it would have been, to my mind, the biggest possible betrayal of what I believed in in the show and what the show seemed to be about and what mattered to the show

if they had shown it. It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not, right? It doesn't matter if the guy who's doing all the interviews thought of it. And here we see how and why it happened, and how close we came to, well, I don't want to say apocalypse, but that's fascinating.

The inside baseball part of that is interesting. Last point. Sure. I know I've been going on, but I just, I'm going to miss this show. For the same reasons you said, like look what we get to talk about. It's an important show,

even if it didn't get good ratings, even if people didn't watch it, but it's an important show to remind people of the one thing that TV still can't quite, doesn't quite know what to do with, even as it's being elevated to the essential storytelling mode or medium of our time, which is ambiguity, and as the song goes, letting the mystery be, right? Like, whenever people ask me, like, what's a great movie or what's a great movie ending,

I always think of two movies that basically had the same ending, The Graduate and Michael Clayton, where the camera lingers just long enough for us to be like, what are we going to do next? What Now? Yeah. Movies can exist in the what now or what just happened, because then they end. TV shows have become, you know, and partly Damon, he impersonally isn't to blame for it, but lost and the phenomenon is, answer every question. You know, tell us things.

Give us more mystery, but then solve it, and then solve it, give us, give us, give us. And the leftovers used its power and money and prestige and privilege to have sci-fi elements and machines and mystery boxes and sex boats, but to force us to sit in the most uncomfortable part of the human psyche and show the TV can do that. And so I'm incredibly grateful to it, not just as an entertainment, but for elevating the medium to a point where maybe it can exist in that place. and I look forward to the next show that can do that because we are entering an era where the shows that we love

or that we celebrate are often about just throwing more quirk at it, throwing more surprises at it, shocking us, showing us things we've never seen before. Or telling us stories we already know. Like the sort of Ryan Murphy kind of like here. Right, or telling us history. Right, or looking backwards. Which for as good as those shows are, it's very safe in that way.

So the leftovers was never safe. and I think it was terrible, and then it was amazing, but it was never boring, and it was never safe. So it's an impressive achievement. All right, that's a good way to go out. On Thursday, we are going to probably hit some peaks. Yeah, I love last night. And I would love to finish up Master of Nunn with you. Master of None, we owe the people Fargo, though.

Thuleas is having a moment, but we have so many hours to catch up on. Also, we need to have a double agent in here to talk to me about season five of the Americans. Yeah, we'll organize you to do. have some compromise. They have that on me already. Yeah. All right, until then. Great job, Bransky.

Thanks again to A&E for sponsoring today's episode of The Watch. Leah Romini's Scientology and the aftermath was A&E's breakout unscripted hit of 2016. The Hollywood Reporter called it engrossing. The New York Daily News said the stories it tells are shocking and rife with sobering revelations and accusations. Now, more ex-Scientologists are joining Leah to fight back, as reality blurred put it, That's the power of this kind of storytelling. Leah Romini, Scientology and the aftermath for your Emmy consideration. Today's episode of The Watch was also brought to you by Hotel Tonight.

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