The Watch - Would 'Black Panther' Work As TV? Plus Guilty Pleasures and New Music In the Mailbag | The Watch (Ep. 236 )

Episode Date: March 19, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald open up the mailbag and answer listener questions ranging from music recommendations to their favorite guilty-pleasure TV shows and more (6:30). Later, they discuss the third episode of Netflix’s 'Collateral' (46:00). Chris's Spotify Playlist Join our Facebook group here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Hulu's just-released new original The Looming Tower based on the Pulitzer Prize winning book by Lawrence Wright. This limited series traces the rising threat of Osama bin Laden and how the rivalry between the FBI and the CIA may have set a path for the tragedy of 9-11. Looming Tower is available now only on Hulu. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Seatkeek,

the best app for buying and selling tickets to sporting events, concerts, and more. For $20 off, your first Seatkeek purchase on any game or sports, event, all you have to do is use promo code watch. Download the Seatgeek app or go right to seekgeek.com. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, he just beat Mike Vick in a foot race. It's Enigree Wall! I'm so glad you started there, Chris, because every so often we get moments in television. Just transcendent moments.

Moments that remind me just why we do this, you know, why we do this. And Michael Vick just racing people for sport outside of a strip club on the last episode of Atlanta was one of those moments. Probably not since the spaceship in Fargo season two. Have you been that excited? Have I just felt like- Diled into our interests in a big way. For sure. But also just a moment of I, ladies and gentlemen, I am floating in space.

This is what I watch television for. It's for Michael Vick versus Donald Glover 100-yard dash raises. Just surprise and delight me, man. Like, is that hard to ask? Atlanta keeps delivering, and it's good that it does, because we've got a podcast about that. Not this one. No, no.

We will talk about Atlanta. Not this one. Everyone, move on. There's a little podcast called The Recapables that you should be subscribed to. It's hosted by Amanda Dobbins with a rotating guest list of other ringer contributors. Amanda Dobbins, from Atlanta. I know. Has she ever...

Aside from being a dynamite podcast. host that she has the pedigree. Has she ever foot raced any member of the Vic family? I don't think so. Marcus Vick, I think is more into snake fighting. I think so, too. Amanda host the Recapables, Atlanta. That is ongoing at Coes up after every episode of Atlanta on Thursday.

And starting this Sunday is another show on the Recapables feed. A young podcaster named William J. Simmons is throwing his hat in the Recapables wearing, and he is hosting the Recapables billions. Wow. With Binge Mode's own Mallory Rubin. This is relevant to your interest as well. This is something that you care about. Billions?

Yeah. It's something I deeply care about. I know. You're excited. There may be some billions, some written billions content from me this week. We'll see. For real.

We'll see. We'll see how things go. So please check out the recapables. Please check out all the TV coverage. Alison Herman's been writing some great stuff. Good Bill Hater piece by Grudadero today on the site. So you can't go wrong when you read the ringer. And we're talking Barry next week.

We are talking Barry next week. But today, Andy, You know, a couple weeks ago, Pat Maldowny and the squad, they set us up this Facebook group, and it's become a hive of conversation. It is the new water cooler. Facebook is the new water cooler.

Facebook is also the new water cooler. Shout to Cambridge Analytica for sponsoring our conversation group. A couple really bumpy week for them, but, you know, I can't quit you, Facebook, because we've got this great Facebook group. Are you bright-siding Cambridge Analytica? Like, look, well, democracy is in ashes and tatters. But on the plus side, you can get some, you can really

hook up with your fellow watch fans. You can. And they have some great questions, some great conversation topics going on to Facebook group. So we thought we would do a mailbag that's largely drawn from our Facebook. And we are going to talk about the third episode of collateral. Can I just tell you that my introduction to the watch fan group? Yeah. It's been bumpy. First of all, I was not green lighted into the group. Yeah. Right away. It's a process. It's like skull and bones. I was vetted heavily. Yeah. I believe I was likely data mind. then I was finally granted access. And the way I, here's how I found out I was in the group. Uh-huh. I fired up the old Facebook on the, on the app, you know, uh, my phone. And I write

underneath the information where a guy who went to high school year ahead of me was celebrating the nine-year-old birthday of his son. Uh-huh. This is a person I've not spoken to 22 years. Why are you, say it that way, the nine-year-old birthday? Well, because what he did was, and this is what it says, remember this. It's like he posted what he posted nine years ago. Oh. Oh. You can I just say? That sucks. I don't mean this to be like full Dattington, but like, why do people write letters to their children on their Facebook page?

You noticed that? And it's always like, dear Jonah, you are a bright, shining star. It's like, is Jonah being data mined on Facebook too? Does that get downvoted? Can you downvote a Facebook post? Why don't you just tell Jonah? He's right there. Well, because Jonah doesn't have like the mine grapes yet to really ferment on that.

He's nine. Yeah, but can he really process like the nuances? of your dad's... Your dad loving you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, underneath that...

I got some notes on that from my own father. Fair enough. Underneath that was another post. It was just someone I wasn't familiar with. I was like, I don't remember this guy from high school. I don't think this is a friend of my dad's. Did you go to like... Where did you go?

You didn't go to a Quaker school. But what I said was going to have to like press... Gonna have to push back on Chris and Andy saying Craig Max Flavia in your ear was sung of the summer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1994 was all about Green Day fellas. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, this is what's happening? Well, you know, it's a two-way conversation.

That's what's shocking to me. That's what's cool about Facebook. That's what's cool. Here's the thing. I definitely, and I'm new to this. Here's why I like podcasting. You're fine, by the way. You're great.

But what I liked about it was that it was kind of the lecture model of the university. It's more of the Hyde Park Barker. We stand up on our crate and we yell at the trees. And the trees don't yell back. But hey, trees, what's up? So, fair enough. It's true. Was Flavisian Your Ear a Billboard top 10 track that year?

Yes, actually, it was number nine. I looked that up. The answer is yes. Dear Jonah, Craig Mack was a rapper. Letter to my unborn son about Flavon years. My unknown seat. So anyway, I guess the point is to say that we're listening. We're listening.

You know what? Our producer loves. Bantar? Banter. So let's get into the questions. You've got mail. Let's get into the mailback questions. The first one comes from Max Marvin.

And I got some heat for you here, Max. Okay. Do you guys have any guilty pleasure or trash reality shows that you watch? Maybe as a pallet cleanser compared to all this peak TV that they are, quote, forced to watch. And nobody's forcing us to do anything. It's not like gavage. It's not like we're making culture foie gras here. But, Max, you know, this is sort of interesting because I think that there was a point where there was almost like a pop-timist movement moment for television.

where there was no such thing as bad TV. There was just, there was no such thing as bad TV genres or bad TV formats. There was only bad TV or good TV. And that something like Vanderpump could be as dramatic or, you know, sort of psychologically probing. Shouts to Sam Smael. Well, so, but there are people, you know, people think that.

And Julietette Lippon has convinced me thoroughly, even if I don't necessarily watch a lot of those shows, that there's a lot to be found in those shows and a lot of reality shows. By the way, note to Bravo. If anyone had told me, Vanderpump Rules was about a restaurant, I maybe would have watched it once. Yeah.

I thought it was about a weightlifting place where people were just Vanderpumping iron. You thought it was literally about pumping. Okay. So there's a lot of stuff out there. You know, I don't necessarily know if we're still in that Pop-Timist moment where it's like this idea.

Now just briefly, Poptimism is just this idea that there is this sort of stodgy concept of authorship and creator, you know, that rock and roll and specifically bands were like where real music was written. Right.

and produced, and that pop was this sort of corporate shills making this factory-plated music, and that, in fact, you could find a lot of artistry within the work of Christina Aguilar or whatever. Right. It's a valuable theory, sort of is dominated and changed the way we talk about popular music. And I think that there has been a lot of scholarship

about reality television. That was all just to say that I don't even know if guilty pleasures or trash TV even exist anymore. That being said. Yeah, here it comes. I fucking love Gold Rush. I don't even know what that is. Gold Rush is on Nat Geo, Max.

And that's my guilty pleasure. And I don't necessarily tape episodes of Gold Rush or sit down to watch it. In fact, you've never seen it. But there is something that I think exists here. And it's called the JetBlue Zone. And it's when you are stuck in a seat for six hours flying somewhere flying across the country. And you're like, yeah, like, you know, JetBlue, they don't have like the on-demand movies. Like they'll just start it.

And then you can kind of jump in. it is. Yeah, yeah. So often, I've seen those movies or I don't want to watch him. So I'm flipping around and what I love on a flight is a marathon.

It's like episode after episode after episode of Shark Tank or whatever. But I got into gold rush over the last couple of places. Give me the elevator pitch. I've never heard of this. It's basically a bunch of dudes desecrating Mother Earth

to look for, I guess somewhat significant amounts of gold. But like, ultimately, when you have to pay for like, excavators and all these homies flying up to Alaska and like the gas. It's like once they get out from under all the debt they incur. Yeah, you'd have to get a lot of gold. They got to get a lot of gold.

Yeah. I like watching them try though. These dudes just stay just being like, fuck. I just like lost my life savings on this on this backhoe that broke in the Alaskan summer mud. And I'm fascinated by it. It's actually just like it's, you. Usually these two or three crews working in different parts of Alaska,

mildly competing against each other. And there's a couple of like, oh, this guy left this crew to go work on this crew. And I'm particularly into this guy, Parker Schnabel, who's like... Is he related to Julian Schnabel, the painter? He looks like Adam Driver. Great. And he kind of sounds like Jesse Eisenberg. And he's really into dram, you know, the rapper, DRAM.

And he is sort of this enfaunt cerebla of the Gold Rush community. Of the Prospector Hive. Yeah, and he recently just did a spinoff show called Gold Rush Parker's Trail, where he and three buddies, like, hiked the original, like, gold mining trail. So this is enough of a thing to be spawning sub things. Oh, for sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that, I guess if I have a guilty pleasure, if you're in the jet blue zone, and you want to watch a marathon, I recommend Gold Rush.

Do you have a guilty pleasure right now? I'm really into this Jet Blue Zone idea. Yeah. I, as people know, if I am ever allowed to fly solo on an airplane or should I have an I will watch the major films of the previous 16 months and report to all of you on them. That's my thing. But when I'm flying with children, and we've been flying on the JetBlue recently, the JetBlue recently, the JetBlue zone for me is having the screen on and I'll find like ESPN 5 where they're

showing like a Nottingham somebody match in the Premier League. Yeah. I know nothing about the teams. Nottingham's on in the Premier League. I can't even. Okay. Well, there's my first problem. So you're definitely not watching the Premier League, number one.

And I just sort of watch them kick the ball on mute. You're like a cat. Literally, it is something to distract my eyes. And I find that very calming. So sports. No, what's your guilty pleasure? I know that you're going to say, like, is there like, what's the basis of food TV that you will watch?

It used to be chopped. I really like chopped a lot. And I had a lot of theories on strategy and chopped. But I really don't. I don't even, this is interesting, I noticed, I really don't turn on television anymore, linear television. I'm almost, although I pay a healthy amount to maintain the live television. I'm generally just going to the Apple TV and choosing among the little boxes. That's interesting.

So, yeah, so I don't go to Food Network anymore or a cooking channel like I used to. I think, I mean, this is not, I don't feel guilty about this. I was hoping we could talk about it sometime. Yeah. But in the last few weeks, when the thought. of watching the four counterparts that I haven't watched yet to catch up begin to weigh on me, I have instead fired up the new Queer Eye, which is super good. That's what everybody's saying.

It is really deeply emotional. Really? Yes. Yes. I really, really recommend it. I couldn't tell if that was like a millennial bit. No. Did you ever watch the first one?

No. First one was great. Okay. It is very, very, very, the first one was very emotional. I mean, because it really was about these guys who were funny and talented and charming and charismatic and fun to watch. But it really is like, let's save men from themselves.

An underappreciated genre because usually television is about watching men destroy themselves. And so it's a nice antidote to that. And for this one, they got a new Fab Five who are also all indeed, they are indeed Fab.

But they moved it from, because in the first season, they filmed in and around New York, so they were basically only helping people in like Port Jeff Station, like up on Long Island. So it was not that far removed from what to us at the time was our world.

they went to Atlanta and it's environs. Now, they are not necessarily helping... Paperboy? Paper boy. But they are actually going to, like, what I would feel comfortable saying is Trump country and sashing in in many cases and helping people. And it's very heartwarming. Okay.

It is a very, very pleasurable watch. You will cry. Okay. So Gold Rush and Queer Eye are the two things that probably we use as pallet cleansers from... Well, it's interesting. We've never talked about it. So it's a good question. Next question.

Drew Turton wants to know it's a two-parter. Name a time. So I'm going to take the first part, and then I'm going to ask you to take the second part. Okay. Okay. So the first part is name a time where the movie was better than the book.

Drew, that's a good question. A lot of the times, because of like the psychological depth that books to have over movies and the fact that you can really live inside of a character's mind. You know, that you can listen to,

you can read descriptions of what, I'm reading a Richard Ford book now set in Oaxaca and the way he, describes the light bouncing off the mountains and the way he describes smells is just incredible. But typically, you know, that you can't do that with movies, but there are obviously some films that have eclipsed the books. And I would say the number one one for me is the Godfather. Mario Puso's book, which I've skimmed, I wouldn't say that I've spent a ton of time with,

is more known as like a kind of sensational like beach beach read, you know, a paperback kind of blockbuster of the time. But the godfather is. is one of the three or four best American films ever made. I would also say stand by me, which I thought found like a new level of emotional resonance with the performances from Will Wheaton and River Phoenix and the people who were in that movie that the Stephen King story didn't quite reach.

I think probably even Stephen King would admit that. But that's one of those that I think kind of takes the source material and goes way, way farther. The second part, unless you have one, you want to throw it out there. One is mash. Oh, yeah. The book is fine. and of its time, I forget the name of the author.

It's very dated, particularly in the way the characters talk about hot lips. I would say would not do well in the hashtag Me Too era. Yeah. The movie is so fantastic and so alive and so disrespectful of the book, but also disrespectful of the screenplay famously. Yeah. Remember Ringlearner Jr. won an Oscar for a screenplay that Robert Altman essentially threw out when he made the movie. Sure. But in a way, you know, it not only captured something really thrilling and exciting about American filmmaking at the time,

it commented in a very vibrant way on Vietnam, even though it was set in the Korean War. That's one example. The other one I would say is there will be blood. I have to say I've not really spent much time in the crates. Sinclair-Lewis. Flipping through, yeah, it was Upton Sinclair, right? Upton Sinclair's oil. We actually had a talk with...

Exclamation point. Yeah, we had to talk with Sean Fennacy about this recently because as the Ringer's preeminent PTA scholar, he has definitely read. and underlined his copy of oil. Yeah. But there is something truly thrilling when a filmmaker finds something that excites him or her

and find something that will speak to the culture, to the times in a more primal way, in the way that a movie can be more primal because it is not telling you, it is showing you. Okay, so the second part of Drew's question was what director-actor-counter combo

would you want to make the movie adaptation of The Last Good Kiss? Oh, see, this is why I should... should look at the questions before we do the podcast. We can. Here's what I'm going to say, Drew, is that we are going to circle back to this. Okay. It's because we, you know, we're doing Last Good Kiss for Double Down Book Club.

I don't know if we've decided exactly the date that we're going to start talking about. No, I did notice in the very nice graphic that Zach threw up, he put a library due date on it. Oh. I believe like April 9th, early April, first half of April. Maybe we'll give people a little more time. So we'll do that. And then so maybe when we talk about it for the D double down book club, we'll have our. Yeah, that's great.

We'll have our pitches for who should write and direct and who should star in the movie. And if people are reading it, then they can have formed their own ideas and opinions and we'll circle back. But that is an exciting, exciting idea. So next question. Adon Magana asks, the guys have talked about how movies have taken back the monoculture and dominate our shared cultural conversation the way shows like Breaking Bad or Mad Men did at the peak of TV's golden age. Aside from every other TV show being a Game of Thrones or Star Wars spinoff, what does TV have to do to reclaim? its place in the culture. I want to ask, I'm going to take Adon's question here,

and I want to flip it and ask you a question. Would Black Panther be as big of a deal if it was a 10-episode Netflix show? No. What if that meant more killmonger backstory, more Dora Milagia, more Sterling K. Brown, more everything,

diving deeper into this world that everybody can't get enough of. I'm not taking away anything from the big screen spectacle, or do you think that the whole point of why it's captured the imagination is that, because now we are entering, there was this whole thing back in the day

when like, you know, an album would go like triple, quadruple, or five times platinum. And you were like, are people literally buying three copies of this hooty and the Blowfish album? I think people are going to see Black Panther for third and fourth times now, you know? And there's a article in deadline

over the weekend that we can put through on the show notes. The numbers on this movie's performance are gobsmacking. They're insane. Yeah. So what would you say, okay, if not Black Panther as a television event, and you can talk about that. Yeah.

What would TV have to do to take back that conversation? I think in terms of Black Panther, I think there are two conversations. One is about the quality of the movie, which is a conversation we've had and happy to have again. The other is what it represents and what it means. And I think in a way, it would be almost cheapening the achievement to say, well, we need to explain all this a little bit more. Part of the triumph of the movie is its swagger and confidence and scale and saying, we don't need to hold your hand to introduce you to a predominantly black world of superheroes or a fictional African country.

You're here. And this is how things are going to go here. And you either come on this ride with us or you don't. and to the tune of a billion dollars, people went along with it. I think that's the importance of that movie. That being said, Black Panther and the mythology created around the character and added to it by Tanahasi Coates recently or Christopher Priest or all these other great writers who have worked on the character is certainly rich enough to have ongoing television-type stories

with the mythology with previous Black Panthers. I mean, that's all there. Yeah, sure. And you know there are rooms somewhere in town already trying to mind that for potential spinoffs. The other note I would say is that the Infinity War, the last Infinity War trailer dropped and the posters are out and so people are talking again. It's very hard. I think the first way to frame the question is it looks like the most successful movies of our time, which basically at this point you could say are the Marvel movies. Yeah.

Sean has a really good piece that's up today about Disney's dominance over the last decade and they have something like six of the top 12. All time, right? Already. Yeah. And a bunch of them have been released over last few years. And their TV shows. Yeah. They stole, in some ways, borrowed, utilized, whatever you want to say, some of the things that helped make television dominant in the previous decade.

The interlocking storyline, the sense that, you know, we can't wait for the next one. That's what that is. So it's sort of hard to think about what TV could do when movies jacked some of their best moves and then amped up the budgets and the stars that are willing to appear in them. The final question, I have no idea because it was interesting that American Idol is back. I've not watched it. I can't imagine you've watched it. You're too busy watching. I have not. Prospector porn. But that is a show that was more than the Sopranos, certainly, was the poster child of the centrality of television to our culture, appointment television, even as people were starting to DVR and there were beginning to be streaming options near the end of American Idol's run. It had voting for Christ's sake. You had to tune in live to do it. Yes. And it kind of came back with a whimper because that specific moment is over. I mean, of course, the voice. is popular and competition shows will always have a certain baseline of popularity. But that moment

has passed in a very profound way. And so it's hard to imagine what could take the place of it, unless there really is that show that people are chasing all over this town that captures the imagination. Because I wanted to fold this into our conversation anyway, but I imagine you and probably a lot of our listeners saw, I think someone even posted it on the Facebook group. There was a long thread about people misunderstanding Netflix. We should retweet this again so people see it. But basically misunderstanding Netflix's metric for success because Netflix and Amazon and Apple are technology companies before they are entertainment companies.

And I think I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think Netflix is viewed as a studio and in fact it's a video store. And it was a streaming service with technology. Yes. I mean, I'm being flippet and I like and love lots of Netflix shows. They're West Coast video but they make the movies in the back. Yeah, but it's like they're. they're ambivalent about whether something is quote unquote good or not.

Of course, it's better if something is good in the hopes that it gets to people more. Yes. But if Cloverfield paradox is Paramount's distressed acid, that doesn't mean shit to Netflix. Exactly right. As far as they're concerned, they paid $50 million or whatever they paid for a sci-fi movie from Bad Robot. And to make the splash after the Super Bowl. After the Super Bowl. And to show that they're willing to mean business and shareholders see how aggressive they're being and what they're spending money on and the engagement and aware of,

of that movie were probably off the roof, I mean, flew through the roof because of the way they did it. What's interesting about Apple coming out and saying, we're all about quality. We're all about making the best shows, not all the shows. Sure, but let's also say another thing, until they make something, Apple is all about press releases. That's true. Their press release game has been outstanding. Apple's press releases recently are like, we're making amazing stories with Steven Spielberg. We're making a morning news show with Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston. It's like, great. What announced more? That's awesome. But until you make some, something. But I also, the caveat is the people who work at these places who they've hired are

in many, in many cases, dedicated television professionals who care about creative success and excellence and have good relationships with people. No question. But the companies themselves, all of this, I brought this up in response to that very good question because they're not trying necessarily. Right. They're not trying because Netflix is much more, is much happier to have 19 B-minuses that engage completely with 19 subgroups who tell their friends and family to watch things, maybe watch things more than once, then they already have two things that everybody watches.

So let me, I'm going to skip ahead a couple of questions just to do this, is that we have a question from a guy named Beatport Zach, which I don't think is our producer's alias, but if it is, that's hilarious. Do you think Netflix and Amazon would ever consider event-based weekly TV for their prestige level shows, the current glut of bingeable content doesn't seem sustainable

in terms of being able to capture the cultural zeitgeist like Game of Thrones and West World on HBO or basically all of the FX shows. Let me tell you this, B-Port. You mean putting something out every week instead of dumping, right? There's no greater indicator

of the difference between what Andy and I and our colleagues think matters and what actually matters than what Netflix does. Because if Netflix was really concerned about owning the conversation, they could have it for at least two of the 12 months of the year, if not more, with Stranger Things. Because if Stranger Things was a weekly event series, we would talk about it for weeks leading up to it. Even this season, I could tell within the

building, within us covering Stranger Things, there was a certain fatigue. It was like, we're going to pour all this energy into what Stranger Things is going to do next so that people can watch it in 10 hours. So what are we supposed to do here? How do we keep up with that? The recap game is ridiculed, but in fact was the lifeblood of this conversation around television. You could have had an eight week, a two-month run where all people talked about was what's going to happen next on Stranger Things. And you could have that kind of, I think Stranger Things actually maybe, you know, you could argue whether or not it could support that kind of scrutiny the way Game of Thrones really can and Westworld really lends itself.

But I don't think that they care. And that's the biggest thing, is that they will spend tons of money on sci-fi shows that people would love to pick over for four or five days and then watch the next one and pick that one over for four or five days. But they don't care, man. And I think that that's the most fascinating difference about this age. I totally agree.

And I don't want to sound too much like the guy who walked uphill to school in the snow both ways, although clearly that's my demographic now. but one of the great joys for me about covering TV and becoming more involved in TV during the Grantland era and, you know, pre-house-of-Card's Netflix before the monolith Netflix became, was the feeling, truly a feeling that I think was legitimate that we all had a stake in these shows in a way. It was a unique medium that felt in a strange way like a collaboration between the business interests, the creative people making the show and the fandom, not only because TV is unique

in that it can, as we've joked many times, tweak itself along the way and steer into mistakes or right around them or almost crash and then veer back onto the road in an interesting way. But because when a show aired on Sunday night, it really felt like we, the fans, and of course, in the hot take community,

lifted up the show on our shoulders. It was football night in America, man. During the intervening six days, we lifted up the show on our shoulders like an exhausted marathoner and carried it to Sunday with conversations. and ideas and whatever. And that feeling was very fun and important to how we thought about covering things

and how an entire segment of online journalism covers things. Netflix don't care. And I think that's exactly right because it's of no value to them when you watch it. What's valuable to them is that you watch it, period. But actually, what's valuable to them is that you just pay them to have access to those things. The HBO model was the NFL model. It's every Sunday, America, gathers around its television.

Very well said. For the week leading up to it, you have essentially like a week of analysis about HBO shows that mirrored the analysis that happens with NFL games. Free promotion. Yeah. That they are not involved in. People like us obsessing over it, podcasts, articles, recaps, all this stuff. People talking to each other at work about it. Then Sunday comes and it's a live event that everybody pretty much watches on time.

Imagine if the NFL simmed their seasons in one day. Now, there might be a lot of people out there who want to know whether or not their team wins the Super Bowl. Our team won the Super Bowl, by the way. There might be a lot of people who don't get to do it the first day. And then I tell them, don't bother watching X show. It sucks. And they might be like, I don't have to watch football this season. You could say, don't bother watching because the Philadelphia Eagles won the Super Bowl and Tom Brady dropped a pass.

You could tell them that. Then they'd watch. Then they'd watch. But I think that's a great, great, great analogy. Imagine that. Imagine if you were like, okay, you want, instant gratification, hit Sim, here's what happens. That's basically what Netflix is doing. You want to get through 10 episodes of House of Cards? I can't believe they don't want to take advantage of that runway.

Like when that show was really cracking in the first two seasons, they just like would just throw it up there. And you know, for the first season, everybody got into it. Everybody was obsessed with it. We were all talking about it. It looked amazing Fincher, et cetera. They could do that with Mind Hunter and they don't. And that's just the way that they've decided to do it. And I don't know what will ever change their mind if they haven't done it already. One thing to say, since the creation of that industry, the coverage industry, it still exists, but I don't know if it is, I can just actually definitively say it is not nearly as universal. What I mean is Atlanta, we were saying for months, we couldn't wait for it to come back because it has the championship belt, of course,

because it does engender that kind of conversation. It comes out on a weekly basis. When the show airs, everything online is talking about it. At least the things that I follow or engage with. It is not as big as some things, but that audience is still ready and excited to be a part of something on a regular basis, and that is thrilling. And even when,

I just feel like we can sort of just fold in a brief, just brief take on that episode, what was, I thought a weaker episode in general of the show. Of Atlanta. Has these moments. It has the opening with the white tears and making fun of the viral video in response to the Vince Staples song.

Shout out Colin Kaepernick. And ends with the Vic moment. Even a relatively off episode has that level of virality and excitement. And people want to jump on it and comment on it and start immediately. Like I knew the episode, I get confused sometimes because we live in California. And I don't remember when things are actually happening on the East Coast. And I fired up Twitter. and I saw someone hashtag Colin Kaepernick,

and I was like, oh, Atlanta must be on. Because I had seen the screener, and it suddenly, like, the tail wave had hit culture. Yeah. That's still exciting for us, even though it is now more of a niche thing. All right, we're going to be back to answer more of your mailback questions

and talk a little bit about episode three of collateral afterward from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the Black Tucks. The Black Tux is the easy way for guys to rent suits and tuxitos online for more than a year now. I've been wearing the black tucks to all my special events.

Weddings. Live Oscar podcasts. Any of that stuff. Just a plate, you know, they are able to make me look good in a flash. It's so easy. Suit comes in the mail. Send it back in the mail. Adjustments are made.

Their customer service team is awesome. You just place your order online in the suit will arrive. 14 days before your event. You wear it. Turn head, send it back three days after your event. Shipping is free both ways. Whether you're going for a stylus, selected outfit, or building a custom look. The Black Tux has tons of suits and tuxitos for you to choose from,

and they are always adding amazing new selections. Plus, with their new fit algorithm, you don't have to awkwardly measure yourself. The Black Tux does it for you. They'll even let you feel the fit and quality of your suit months before the event with a free home try on. Look as great as your date with the Black Tux to get $20 off your purchase. Visit the Blacktucks.com slash watch. That's the Blacktucks.com slash watch for $20 off your first purchase. The Black Tux, premium rental suits and tuxedos delivered. Today's episode of The Watch is also brought to you by Hotel Tonight. Fun fact, unlike flights or other travel, hotel rates actually get cheaper at the last minute.

In fact, Hotel Tonight partners with awesome hotels to help them sell their unsold rooms, which means you get amazing deals. All it takes is 10 seconds, just three taps in a swipe to book a room. No long, endless lists of a zillion hotel choices. Hotel Tonight only shows you the best deals at the best hotels. It's perfect for if you're busy or you don't want to, over think things. Plus, you can book up to 100 days in advance in top destinations and up to a week in advance everywhere else. Book next week tonight, books next month, tonight. It's great

for last minute getaways or a quick vacation, whether you're a planner or you like to leave things to the very last minute. With Hotel Tonight's HD perks program, the more you book, the better the deals get. So start scoring amazing deals at incredible hotels and download the Hotel Tonight app now. You've got mail. Greenwald, we are back. Speaking of Vince Staples, on Keekech Mantra asks, outside of Jason Manzukas and Sam Esmail, who would you like to have as guest hosts on the pod? Now, Jason and Sam have kind of

moved into this zone, whether, you know, it's like the Tom Hanks' S&L zone, but it's I like having those guys on so much, aside from the fact that they're amazing people, is that they kind of break out of the, well, you know, I've been working on this, let me talk about it. It's more like, I want to talk about the things that you guys are talking about. In fact, Sam won't talk about he's working on. Selfishly, it's just very fun

for us. Yeah. It's hard to get people there, and this is just a wish list that I've put together for us? Oh, did you? Yeah. Do you want to know mine? Because you actually have a list. I just had one person

that's top of my head. Yvonne Orgy. I want her back. Because she's never actually been on the podcast. Just a live show. She did a live throne show with us this summer at Largo.

There were some videos put out. We couldn't put out the whole audio. It was her and Zooks together, had never met dynamite together. Yeah. She's a lot of fun. Yeah. And I hope we can get her on

before the next season of Insecure. I would love to have Vince Staples on. Love to have his takes. Vince Staples is the king right now. Yeah. Vince Staples is like an all-time talk show podcast guest. Jason Bateman. We've got a lot to discuss with him.

You are just, this is the secret. You're putting this out into the universe. I've asked. I'll put it out there. It's not on Front Street or anything, but I've asked for Bateman, you know? You should try to sort of... You only made one of the top five movies of the year already, bro.

Game Night? Game Night. Tweek the ask and tell him that this is a Daddington pod. And that's all we talk about. Then I get isolated. Then I get alienated from the process. Listen, he's going to show up. You think that him, we literally scream at the top of our lungs about how good Ozark are,

but if you think we appeal to his fatherhood, he'll come on. I think he would come on, and then you could just scream to him about money laundering. I would also love to spend some time with Gina Rodriguez. Oh, God, she's great. Yeah, did you listen to her on Marin? Yeah. She seems like a fun hang. Roger Deacons.

What's that guy doing? Wow. Roger Deacons really, you know, toiling in the shadows until the Oscars. Like, what was London in the 70s like? Yeah, he seems to still live there. Yeah, seriously. I got to say, should, this is a circumstance. You know that dude saw the jam once, you know?

Two comments. Someone on, when we put up the picture of us with our friends, the Shibsibs, and they let us wear their medals, which is very cool. Someone on Instagram was like, you know, if you wear an Olympic medal, that's not yours, it means you'll never win one. And I was like, that's fine. I walked in here from a busy morning of dropping a kid off at school, and everyone here was like, are you walking okay? Did you break your leg?

So I'm not concerned about winning an Olympic medal. But a similar circumstance is, I'm never going to be nominated for an Oscar 16 times or whatever it is. But if I were, I promise you on the 16th or 17th time, I would not be as ready. I would not be as debonair and just like, how nice. Yeah. I would be straight luchying or I would just be a mess. The Holy Grail for us, though, is the father to our style and the voice, the first voice you hear when you fire up the watch. And that's Edward Norton.

And Norton would be an incredible guest. Yeah. Norton, you know, I love actors who are described. I just want to talk about the high line, bro. I love actors who are described as cerebral. That can mean so many things. That can just mean like he's read a book. Or it can mean, you know, he is ready to like diagram like plays on a black.

blackboard for us. He is a Gruden's grinder. I feel like that guy could really diagram the West Coast offense. Also, a fascinating last few months he's had because he has not been in any movies. He's directing a Jonathan Leitham adaptation in New York. And his only appearance in the public sphere in the last few months was that Salma Hayek op-ed where she was basically like, my boyfriend, Edward, kindly rewrote the entire script of Frida for me for free. Yeah. Wow. I'd be interested to talk to him. So another question here is from Cal O. Boliv. loyal. And this one's more for you than it is for me. Okay. Can you explain the particulars? And this is useful because it's coming back.

Of what it is that Westworld is not accomplishing that you want it to. Is this a leftover scenario where season two could blow you out of the water? Also, Tessa Thompson, hashtag team human. No. The thing about the leftovers in the first season was it was calibrated to a degree that I just didn't like and I didn't think it was working. But it was clearly interested in things that I'm interested in shows exploring. It was deeply invested in human emotion and responses and the idea of the world being unknowable mysteries lurking in a way that would never be not interested in easy resolution or answers. In that case, it was a direct response to Damon's experience unlost.

And in some ways a refutation of it. My response to the first season, and I've said this before, was like anger. And anger is kind of love just tweaked a little bit. And so when they got the balance right, and Damon talked to us about this, you know, he remembered, actually he was forced to remember because he had the misfortune of attending a funeral, but he remembered that people often laugh at funerals. There are wakes. And he realized that he had to let some light in in order to appreciate the darkness on the

show. And then I think it elevated itself into a masterpiece. Westworld, to my mind, is completely uninterested in those deeper mysteries and questions, even though it sort of purports to be about them, about humanity or our nature. It, to me, is a jigsaw puzzle, not a TV show. It is very, very cerebral, not necessarily in the Edward Norton's sense. It is pleased with its cleverness and the tricks that it's playing. But to my mind, in my experience in the first season, it says nothing about humanity,

and there are no characters that I'm compelled and are interested in. I'm not rooting for anyone. It's a pageant. I just found it completely inert. despite having remarkable production values, despite having some of the best actors working, giving very good performances. And the trends, the second season might be better in a lot of ways

because I think there are some elements of the first season that even if I was just trying to admire it in a test tube, I would say, well, that didn't break right. You know, I mean, the entire season seemed to be built on us being shocked by some of the revelations that happened later in the season, the Ed Harris reveal, the Jeffrey Wright reveal. People were guessing those in week two and three. and the show never really had the momentum to recover

and had nothing underneath those tricks to carry us. I think they've learned a lot of lessons, I'm sure they have, going to the second season. So it might be a better designed mystery box in the second season. And of course I'll watch. But fundamentally, I just don't think it's interested in being the kind of show that I wish it could be or I wish it would be or that I prefer it to be. Fair enough.

I mean, my TLDR of that is like I just, I want to see them go beyond the realm of the, the boundaries that they have set physically for that show. They're going to go into these other parks apparently. And I'm curious about that. It's just weird to me that like a show that I don't understand what we're rooting for or what we're supposed to care about. And they're like, okay, I hear you, but samurai.

That's just a very weird response to me. Andy won't Samarize. Okay. This one's more for me. Chris, what is the basis of your self-admitted biased against animated shows? And Andy, what's the animated show you most wish Chris would watch? I love that I'm getting a pass here.

Your team cartoons. So Andy probably is more in the Pixar zone, right? Well, that's not by choice. Well, you made the choice. Okay, big picture I made the choice. You made the choice. I would say that this is a little bit of a bit of my part. I enjoy BoJack.

I don't watch it like the day it comes out, but I enjoyed the stuff I've watched. I sincerely like adore the first few seasons of Archer. Yeah, Archer's great. And I obviously have watched my fair share of Simpsons in South Park as just like an American person my age. I cried at the beginning of up. I enjoyed Wally and Inside Out.

Like, it's not like I think it's like, I put it forward like I'm just like, get this shit off my plate. But I would say that it's one of those things where I always ask myself if an animated show or cartoon is like put in front of me, I'm like, could I be doing something better with my time? Totally.

Yeah. I, could I be watching Gold Rush? What's Parker doing? Have they hit the seam? Have you checked the Nottingham score? because they are. I guess I mostly agree with you, and I've kind of gotten a pass for a lot of this because you take up so much of the spotlight

and not paying attention to cartoons. Sure. You know, like I will dabble with Rick and Morty, and I think it's clever, and sometimes it's funny, but I don't, I'm not particularly engaged by it, which isn't to say it's bad, I just don't think it's for me.

The example I would give you, and this is a little bit of a callback to our favorite guests who don't talk about their work, Big mouth on Netflix. Nick Kroll, Andrew Goldberg, John Malaney, Manzukas, Jesse Klein, Jordan Peel, Oscar Award winner. It is a show about puberty. It is extremely funny.

It is very filthy. But it also answers, passes the test that I would put at shows that are animated, which is I see not only why they chose to make this a cartoon, but I see why this is better as a cartoon. Gotcha. Because it captures the sort of. of insanity of a particular period in people's lives, pun may be intended, because that's certainly part of it too, and blows it out to reflect like the emotional aspect of it. I mean, they're literally our male and female hormone monsters menacing these kids.

It's very smart, and it actually is, it's very funny. I would recommend everyone watching it the first season, but I would recommend my friend Chris Ryan checks it out. Will Perkle gets the Mariana Rivera-Closer award here last. question. Can we get some new music recommendations? Oh my god, yeah. I got a Spotify playlist I'm put up. I'll put it up today. Great. Is this Andy only? I'm locked in. You want to put up yours, man? Are we going to go head to head? Let's do it. We can't be, we can't be together. We can. We don't need to like chase likes here, but like you put up yours. I imagine it's 10 tracks of hot snakes of the new

hot snakes album and then like one. Predictively, I like the hot snakes record, Jericho Sirens. I also really like this LA band called the Alton's that I've recently gotten into. Oh yeah. They kind of sound like the Alabama shakes a little bit. And they have a couple of really great singles that they've put out last year and this year. And just like an awesome, awesome band. They're like kind of like Nouveau stacks stuff with a little bit of like a Latin feel. I'm glad you asked this question, Will, because Chris doesn't share this stuff with me. Also, Ice Age is my favorite working band right now. Here's a little insight into the old Greenwald Ryan dynamic. I will during a workday just text Chris a Spotify link. And there is no sure a way not to get a response to him, Chris.

Spotify links like if I'm on my phone, it's just like for some reason I have a block of clicking on a Spotify. I just assume, though, you've got like three screens up like Corey Stoll and Born Legacy. And, you know, I actually think it's it's servicy because I imagine that you are just listening to nothing but your hammering heartbeat on your third green tea of the afternoon as you attempt to edit a blog post. I'm like, here's some music to lighten your load, friend. Not the case. The Lucy Dacus album is my favorite record of the year so far. It's called Historian.

It's on Matador. Very young singer-songwriter. And she has the range, man. She has the goods. They're terrific songs. Lucy Daccas, what else? Give me two others. Just right.

Soccer Mommy. Okay. This is a 20. This is very young women making these incredible albums this year. That's what I really like. The Super Chunk album. You know, I realized we had Mac and John from Super Chunk on the show. because we recorded it as the interview at a different time than the show, I didn't do like five minutes as to why this band is so important to us. But their album, what a time to be alive. Not a collaboration of the future, unfortunately. But one of the best albums of their career and a just blisteringly essential political rock album for this year. I listen to it constantly. Andy and I will put our competing playlists in the show notes, I guess. This is where it ends. When do we do our podcast just on our opinions about O3 Grito and how

Why are all rappers low-key paramour fans? I gotta have Doni-Quot. We gotta have Kwok on if we're talking to O3 Grito. Because he has some singeing hot takes on Grito. I am ready for those takes, but I kind of, we need to have a deeper dive into why. And this is, by the way, this is great for me.

But why are all rappers into Paramore now? Like, why is Emo okay now? It's been okay. I mean, obviously. It's been okay since Maconan, right? Yes. I mean, there's obviously a, I mean, a lot of what's on rap caviar basically could have been on

drive-through records 15 years ago in a lot of ways. Yeah. But it's interesting to me. I think Molly might be the answer. Someone we know named Molly or literally the drug. Not someone we know, literally the drug. Yeah, but okay, I hear that. But I can't imagine, again, children who listen to our show.

Don't do drugs. Don't do Molly. But let us know why O3 Grito is important. But not just that, but like why you would ever want to experience a drug that is uplifting. Yeah, I can. And then listen to Dashboard Confession.

My emotional palate is still DS2 by future. Yeah, that's your vibe. Yeah. You are, so you don't go onto Grape Street where the wolves are. I stay in, I like future DS2. I like

Hot Snakes, Jericho Sirens. I just like Rick Flair drip by offset. Let's quickly talk about episode three before we get out of here of collateral. We've been doing. the sort of chapter. What do people think? Are people talking about that on our Facebook group? This has been a really interesting show. I have not gotten as much of a nuanced, but varied response. So people are actually have like intellectually stimulating things to say about the show

rather than like, this sucks. It was a reader. Or this is the best show of all time. Obviously people have their critiques of it. Some people love it. Some people hate it. I just wanted to talk about episode three specifically because it has, I think, maybe the best written scene I've seen in a really long time and that's the interrogation between Kip and Fatima at the detention center

it's just it's writing it's finest I think it's writing it's got humor it's got humanity it's got moments in between dialogue where Fatima asks like why did you come without the men this time

and Carrie Mulligan just looks at her and there's nothing that needs to be said there's the really heartwarming moment where Kip shows Fatima the video of her falling as a pole vaulter. And they just, you know, those conversations in which the access of power tilts back and forth between the two participants several times are always my favorite dramatic scenes to watch. So, you know, I fully acknowledge that collateral has very convenient moments and is very polemical.

But I thought that this is, if you want to know why I love this show so much, it was that scene. That was the word I was going to use when talking about episode three. This was the one for me where, and I'm still enjoying it, I'm still in on it. And by the way, still excited. There's only one episode left. It's extremely polemical. And this was the episode where the overall points that David Hare is very excited to make about each branch of the story and in some cases a branch of government. This is the one where they started to pull apart for me and I missed a central spine.

there are things to commend the show for in its lack of fealty to television tradition but actually what I'm starting to feel about it is I wish it was a little more TV traditional because I want this to be Kip Glasby's show I want the show to have its detective hero and follow her. Prime suspect with Carrie Mulligan yeah

she's so good the character is great her interactions with everyone are the lifeblood of the show and as we pull away from her and she's just another piece in the tapestry it's not just that I'm lost because everyone's delivering a great performance

it's because the limits of a show like this begin to be a little more clear where the conversation between David, the MP and Billy Piper who, by the way,

finally got out of the apartment so she shouts to her. Their screaming fight, you know, I mean, there's not enough room for these characters to do more

than shout their particularly entrenched points of view at each other. Yeah. And I, that's a little bit of a bummer. There is room for, thankfully there's room for things like, and this was very painful, like the mother of, what's your name? Sandrine.

Well, that scene was very interesting as well. But no, the mother of the pizza girl who is RIP. Oh, yeah. Devastating, but there's room for those emotional beats. Sure. But this generally, as we're, now we're heading home, you can tell that David Hare is a playwright. You can tell that he has worked in features. because though he had the real estate

to make people a little more complicated, he knew what he wanted to do. And so that's the thing we've admired for the first two episodes, but it's very interesting as we reach the third episode to consider it like TV. Because I think you and I have often got had these eight and ten episodes

seasons over like, why is this 10 episodes? Why is this eight episodes? This could have been six. I would have liked it if this was six and I would have liked it if it was of those six, four were entirely about Carrie Mulligan. Yes. The heel turn of the already pretty healy Sam was a, that was a tip.

I don't even know if it's a heel turn. Is it? Well, the, I mean, he came in as pretty mustache twirling evil. Sure. And turns out he's not a great guy. Yeah, I guess so. I guess, yeah. But you and I believe, I can say this, we will ride for D.I. Kip Glasby.

Oh, this, I make no apologies for this show. I'm ready for a novelization just following her adventures in London. I mean, she's great. So we've got some scheduling things that we're working on in terms of having some guests. So we're not quite sure what Thursday is going to be, but we'll let you guys know as soon as possible. The playlist that Andy and I are talking about will be in the show notes. We really, really appreciate all your guys' questions.

We'll hit the last episode of Collateral, although there's not a ton left to say. I mean, the end is not, there's not like huge twists or whatever. So we will get to the last episode of Collateral on Thursday. I think we're going to have an interview, but we're just not sure what's one. We're going to have an interview. It's just either one, you'll be pretty excited about. I think. So until then, for Greenwald.

Great, great job, Branson. Great job by you. Hey, great job by us. You still got it. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Green Chef. Feel like the star of your own cooking show with Green Chef meal kits. Green Chef is a meal kit company that delivers everything you need to cook gourmet meals at home, including organic ingredients and easy recipes.

Plus, they are USDA certified organic, and they offer options for specialty diets like vegan, paleo, gluten-free, and more. Sign up today for a special limited time offer. Go to greencheft.us slash watch for $50 off your first meal kit. That's greenchef.us slash wATCH for $50 off.