The Watch - Writers Guild Negotiations, Plus: ‘Veep’ and ‘Barry’ | The Watch

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

An explainer on what the negotiations between the Writers Guild of America and the Association of Talent Agents (3:35) could mean for the industry (13:48). Plus, the new Jenny Lewis album is everything we could want from her (17:41), and ‘Veep’ and ‘Barry’ are back on HBO (29:31). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Our very own Bill Simmons just released his 500th Bill Simmons podcast episode, featuring Bill Hater talking about HBO's new season of Barry, S&L stories, and favorite movies. And for the very first time, Bill is joined by a long-awaited special guest. He also just recorded a new rewatchables episode on Fast Five with Shay Serrano. And after you listen to the Rewatchables, head over to the Winging It podcast, where Vince and Kent interview the Fast Five episode.

star himself Ludacris, where they discuss his career, his new music, and Fast 9. You can find these episodes and much more Ringer content on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at the wringer.com and joining me in the studio. This is a Phillies podcast now.

Yes. It's Andy Greenwald. I love baseball. Baseball has always been my true love. Here's the three down. Here's the issue, Chris. Around this time every week, ever since I became very busy, you say things like you check in with me,

you're very patient and tender friend. You say things like, you've been checking out anything, been engaged in anything, consuming any content, culture, and the answer is generally no. Now that I have a new answer, is, yes, I read every gamer. I read every single game recap of the Philadelphia Phillies. Yes.

Subscribed to the athletic. Yeah. Athletic, Philadelphia Enquirer, NBC Sports, ESPN, whatever. Can I... Just shoot it into my veins, is what I'm saying. I think I asked you, hey man, Hey, buddy. Want to come on the podcast and talk about anything you've seen, anything.

Yeah. I don't know. I just haven't really gotten it. chance to watch anything. I'm really sorry. And then some time passed and I was doing something and I looked at my phone and I had 16 messages from a group chat that were on

where you were just doing the frigging Harry Callis play by play of a Phillies game. So... MASH and Taters. Let's go. The Reese Hoskins to my Bryce Harper is here. We are going to talk a little bit about popular culture. So you're the money guy and I'm like the homegrown... I just call it like I see it.

I think I have a little bit more of that Nevada charm than you do, frankly. You seem like a guy named Rees. Greenwald, it's so good to see you. Nice to see you. You got a haircut. I did, yeah. For what it's worth.

For all the good it does me. I have to, like, ever since I lost, started losing my hair, I have to give my haircut, like, every fucking 10 days. Or? It just looks weird. This is what you have to do. I feel like it's just where I'm at. You know, it's just like what has to happen.

But it's ironic. Someone's said cruelly ironic that I now pay more to get my haircut now that there's less hair to cut. Well, I'm not even going to. You can see what you want. Thanks. I just, okay, it's more lovingly curated now. I suppose so. I wish I had taken this good care of it back then.

Today, I want to talk a little bit about Barry and Veep, which came back last night. Yeah, TV shows. I watched them. I'm in the business. I thought also, you know, you didn't get a chance to take a couple of practice swings, as it were, at the Jenny Lewis record. Oh, boy. Which has really been on heavy rotation among many bringer staffers. There's an incredible Lindsay's a lad's piece about it.

I love that piece. Yeah. And so you should check that on the ringer. But first one I wanted to talk to you about was a dark cloud, some would say. Hanging over like, yeah, not to be like weirdly transparent,

but you're in the process of making this television show right now. I am. But there's this other thing happening in Hollywood. This isn't a bit. That's kind of hanging over the production of yours and everybody else's production. So can you tell me a little bit about the dispute between the Writers Guild?

and who is the other specifically? Is it agencies in total? There's an association of agencies. And so the Writers Guild, which I'm a member, and everyone who writes for the screen is a member, it's a great union, great health care, great group of people. They have an agreement,

a basic negotiating agreement with the association of agencies, basically to represent writers. This is an agreement that has not been updated or changed or amended since the 70s. So there's been a couple of development since then. A couple of major, major developments. Some mage developments. In basically everything.

And so a year ago, the Guild let the agencies know that they would let the deal expire in a year unless there were significant changes made to it. And then only recently were negotiations begun in earnest. And there's a lot of fear, anger, and recriminations on both sides. And last week, the Guild voted overwhelmingly 95 or 96% of the members voting yes. to basically break from any agencies that did not agree to sign on to a new deal. Right. And there is no new deal. And the point of contention is this concept of packaging.

Yeah. Now, packaging is something, this is pretty inside, inside baseball. No, I think it's really interesting, though, because we always talk about casting and how things get developed. And we talk about whether or not there was like a hiccup somewhere along the line when someone else might have been the right choice. Now, let me also say that I am not the spokesman for any of this. My knowledge of this is that of an engaged and concerned participant, but I'm not on any board or negotiating committee. I have not attended the guild meetings that I wish that I could have or should have. But basically...

There's a lot of Phillies games on there. There are a lot of Phillies games on all of a sudden. Baseball season is really, really taking up my time. But what I understood packaging to be before I got into the side of the business was basically the three major agencies, WME, William Morris Endeavor, CAA, and UTA, and I'm represented by UTA,

would say, okay, well, we have a good script written by one of our clients. What we can do with our power is take a, get a director we represent interested, get a star or two, we represent interested, maybe even bring it to a production shingle that we have a relationship with. And we put the whole package together for you.

Right. And that made things easier. And I think that there's an argument that there's a lot of independent film would have trouble existing if that system went away. At least that's the agency's argument. What I didn't actually know is that packaging has basically become something else, which is to say that just as a matter of course when a TV show is made, the agency representing generally the creator or showrunner will get a package on the project.

And what that means is a set agreement of percentage payments from the budget that they will make if the show goes to series in perpetuity, basically. And in return, all of the agency's commissions are waived. So, for example, Breyer Patch, I'm a UTA client. If I write something for Briar Patch,

UTA doesn't take 10% like they normally would. And if there are UTA writers in the room with me or a UTA cinematographer or whatever the case may be, they don't have to pay their commission because UTA is getting paid on the back end. Yeah. And that's more lucrative for UTA? If it's modern family.

Sure. Right. It certainly is. Yeah. It's not always. And that's, again, that's the agency's argument, is that they take a risk. There were no production profits on a pilot, for example. Right.

So that's the argument they take. Now, from my point of view, there are two major problems. One is just a really frustrating lack of transparency. I didn't know UTA had a package, for example. I adore my agents. I love them. I socialize with them. They're pretty cool guys.

They're awesome, incredible, supportive people who I like personally and whom I wouldn't be anywhere. I wouldn't have any of this without them. But I didn't know that. I didn't know to ask. Generally, you know, there are a lot of arguments in David Simon, in his very David Simony way, expressed this in a very fiery way what happened to him, where he didn't know his first go around with agencies when he was selling. homicide that while he was

he was selling the book homicide to become a TV show, the agency where he was at the time also represented Barry Levinson, who was going to be the executive producer of it. So they were basically negotiating on behalf of Barry against David, who's also their client. So there's all these sort of shadowy stuff going on in terms of whose

best interests are really being looked out for. So when Barry Levinson goes in and he's like, well, to get me involved, you have to give up X, Y, and Z amount of power or money or whatever. And it turns out that while Barry Levinson, especially at the time, was like, one of the top filmmakers or one of the most popular mainstream directors, that still, it might not have been like a free market way of doing it for Simon.

Right. And in my personal thing is it's just an issue of transparency. And whether it's just oversight or hubris or whatever, it's better to know what's going on and what decisions are being made for you and who's representing who in each version of it. You can still choose to go along with it. Sure. In many cases, it may actually be. And again, I don't know more lucrative to allow the agency to package. But if you have to know. Yeah. The second piece is that the major agencies have taken on in the last few years, especially WME, but also CAA, into a lesser degree DTA, enormous amounts of outside capital, venture capital,

and formed production companies of their own. So they are basically getting into all sides of the business, which is kind of like what happened, I think, with Wall Street, and, you know, the word fiduciary gets thrown around a lot, but this seems like pretty blatant conflicts of interest. Right. that the agencies have found ways to cake up outrageously while this prestige TV and content boom has happened

while the writers are increasingly getting left behind. And particularly, like, if WME is producing a show through their endeavor content arm, and then they want a WME client to write on it, who are they representing more? And then in the middle of all this, while the agencies are claiming that writers are getting it wrong, and we're going after the wrong enemy

and all this stuff, WME announces they're going public. So it's pretty untenable. It seems like there are a lot of financial conflicts of interest that need to be resolved. And the writer's position, which is a very hard-line position, was that they have to give up all packaging, that agencies cannot do this if they want to represent us. And so no one seems to be budging.

The agency voted yes. And so in a couple days and less than a week, we are all going to be likely expected to leave our agencies. And do what? Represent yourselves? Well, many writers are also represented by managers or lawyers. I'm not among them. Are you looking for management?

I'm considering. I'm ready to hear your pitch live on Mike. Hollywood Fixer is ready to step in. Speaking personally, I'm in an incredibly fortunate position. I'm running my own show. All of my work is on this show. UTA negotiated this deal. There aren't any more deals to negotiate right now. I'm busy.

I'm fine. This is happening during, well, it's always staffing season now. So the real victims often are the baby writers, junior writers, who might fall through the cracks, who might not be represented. And so writers are attempting to create a database to help writers hire other writers. That's cool. But I think, you know, I'm nervous. I'm sort of optimistic in the sense that this business is too intermeshed with each other.

I think that some wiggle room might be possible. I don't know what it's going to look like or how it's going to look like. But it's crazy. It is a crazy thing. And there is another deal, there's a negotiation coming next year between writers. and studios. And as a, I mean, from the writer's perspective, I think it is overdue to take a hard line. Because 500 shows per year, who's writing them, who's creating them, who's creating them, who has an open market valuation of $2.5 billion, not the writers. Not this guy.

Yeah, right. Maybe James L. Brooks and the other Simpsons guys. But, Dick Wolf. I mean, it's interesting that this is the reason that there's been this dispute. This is the reason why you guys are kind of across across the line from one another when you would think that if this deal hasn't been updated since the 70s, quite a bit has happened since then. Yeah. To say nothing of the rise and somewhat fall of cable. You now are in a situation where even the idea in the 70s and early 80s, when people were like, you hit 100 shows, you go to syndication, that's how you pay for your grandkids going to college. And now it's like syndication sort of pales in comparison to the way people consume the office. 200 episodes.

in six weeks like our front Sarah did. You know, like that's... It's also, you look at it like there... It's always hard to write for TV. But in the old days, it's like a cynicure. You get in, you're writing 22 episodes a year. It's a year-round job. Now, maybe you're writing eight episodes a year.

And then you don't get another job until that show comes back. And maybe the showrunner has another project he or she wants to do. So that show doesn't come back for two years. So that's not enough to pay your bills. That's not enough to pay your rent. And you take away the back end.

and I'll say this again as generally I am not a firebrand I'm not on the front lines of this like I said I adore my agents and I think they've done a fantastic job for me and I'm not just saying that because I know they listen to this podcast I would say it regardless and I have many friends who feel the same way but since the 70s and since the 2000s most facets of the business have found ways to adapt and change to maximize their profits in the ever-changing marketplace

and writers are still writing Right. And now there is a altruistic version of packaging that I think makes some sense. I mean, theoretically, if you were signed with an agent and that agent has some of the same taste that you do and sort of see something in you and is like, I like, I'm responding to your voice and I respond to something about your voice in this person's acting or in this person's directing or in this person's cinematography. There might be a sort of ease of use when it comes to booking a bunch of talent to make something. because one of the things just from the back seat that I've noticed about making your show is like the idea that you may have in your head about like, well, we'll just cast a group of actors

and put on a show is like, it's so much more complicated than that in terms of scheduling people, in terms of finding when people are available, calibrating, you know, when you're shooting and where you're shooting and how you're shooting for this sort of mural of personalities that are all going to be involved.

I imagine having one agency, sort of helping with all of that is very beneficial rather than dealing with four or five different agencies. It could be, although I'm dealing with five or six agencies. Sure, yes. I mean, that's just sort of the nature of it. And again, I've been very lucky, like when, whether I'm talking to an agent

who represents one of the writers that I wanted to hire or eventually hired, or even one of an agent who represented a client who ended up taking a different job, but I had a great meeting with a client. Like, we had a, it started a good relationship with someone I couldn't hire, or whether it's the agents who represent the actors,

it's the business. And I've been, like, everyone listening or paying any attention to what I'm doing would recognize that I've been extraordinarily fortunate and lucky. But by and large, the people that I've worked with have all been on the up and up and have been good faith negotiators and helped, you know,

and put in a good word or like the script or encourage their clients. So we're, you know, I've had a great experience. But I do think, And so the question for some might be, why are you still talking about this? The question for others might be, why now? But I've definitely come around to the point of view that we have to stand strong now because of the changes that are coming,

because of the fact that even you and I on this podcast have recently been talking a lot about how all of the big business plays and streaming plays that are happening now are really for 2022, 2021. There are a few years in the future. Yeah, and I also think consolidation is coming. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think that there is a world in the next 10 years where there really are only four players.

Mm-hmm. Are we one of them? I hope so. So wait, do we count as two players of the four, or are we together one? No, we come together like Voltron to form a very small player. Tiny, tiny player. Okay, I guess the reason why I want is to talk about it, not only because I think it's like a complicated thing that the average person doesn't necessarily... And they're not going to see a disruption.

That's the difference between the writers strike. Now on the writer's strike. When the writer struck a few years ago and almost struck again a year or two ago, there was an immediate effect. I mean, the late night shows. Friday night light season too got screwed up. Right. So Breaking Bad had a shorter first or second season because of it.

All the late night shows immediately had no writing staffs and the hosts all had beards or something from what I remember. They all turned into the Will Ferrell teleprompter guy. Basically, instantly. This is different because the deals, if you're a working writer now, you're working under a deal that was negotiated by your agent, and that doesn't change. They will still manage that business for you. And that's another reason why, even if this dramatic thing happens on August, on April 6th or 7th, there might not be any movement on April 20th, or May 1st.

Right. Slowly things are going to start to... When people are like, when there actually is a slowdown in development and making certain things happen, right? Yeah. Right. Okay. But not this. No. I mean, we don't need packaging. We are a package. We are the package. You want to talk a little bit about this, Jenny Lewis record? Yeah, so look, I was just thrilled. This is like my equivalent of getting a link from the athletic from you because Jenny is wonderful.

I adore her music. I adore her. One-time vocalist of the podcast intro, or at least when I did my own show. Yeah, the end of your name. Yeah. And her new album is just fire. It's called on the line.

It's just incredible. And so I was just enjoying it, just in the, comfort of my own home. I didn't know. I didn't know that the line had become a party line. I did not know that I was going to get a text from you, the day of release, that said this Jenny Lewis album for president. Yeah. I mean, my attitude towards Jenny Lewis is that if she would like to be the new Tom Petty, you're okay with that? That would be great. And her records give me that, her last two records, this in Voyager, definitely give me a little bit of that vibe. Yeah. You know, She has such a great way of writing so specific and detailed songs in terms of their lyrics

while also having very, like, hummable earworm hooks to them. And is, like, just so refreshingly herself. Like, it's just kind of, like, such a unique character. This hybrid of, like, normie, L.A. person dealing with getting older meets, like, Graham Parsons Angel of Country music? Yeah, she, there's something that is resolutely old-fashioned, but in the best possible way. It's not old. It's completely contemporary, but old-fashioned in the sense that it's been four or five years

since the Voyager, she writes songs at her own pace. She experiences her life at its correct pace. And then when the time is right, she gets, I mean, this is the new version of her. This is, I mean, and, you know, and I've been a fan since Rilohkeye. this is a very different sort of iteration of her career, but it feels inevitable in a way. When The Time is Right, she gets this murderer's row of session talent. Jim Keltner, just this, you know, God-level session drummer,

Ben Mont Tench from the Heartbreakers, and Ringo Starr even sitting in on a few tracks, and records at like the Capitol Records studios. Yes, a studio of me. And it sounds worth it. You know what I mean? I don't know. This might be one of my oldest takes as I hear it come out of my mouth, but this was worried over and fretted over and cared over and supported and burnished.

And it's the kind of record that feels like the best version of itself in a wonderful way. And the songwriting is phenomenal and the emotions behind it are incredible. And it's just gorgeous. It's just a great, great piece of work. And I will say that though I am sounding like a thousand years, year old classic rock man when I describe it. My very young daughters also love it. Do they? Yes.

They refer to wasted youth, beautiful song on the record as cookie crumbles because they're fans of cookies. That's good. And there's a line about cookies. Do you just skip Red Bull and Hennessy? They haven't picked up on that. They do wonder why wasted youth is, I wasted my youth on a poppy. Like, how could you waste your life on a flower?

And I'm like, well, I don't know. There's no way you could use a byproduct of that flour to transform it into a highly addictive opiate and injected it into your veins and does lose youth. That doesn't seem appropriate. That would be something I would package. So, if anybody wants an option on that, on the underlying poppy IP. Daddy explaining heroin.

Look, it's a minefield out there. It's a poppy field. Older daughter, super into Greece, driving home on the 101. Not Greece like in Drakmas, like the musical. Oh, yes, you're not the first person to say that. Someone's like, oh, has she been vacationing in Mekanos? A dry as he has been a year to go wine?

How does she feel about austerity? Yeah. The musical grease, the film grease, listening to it. Can we listen to Greece? Sure. Of course. Quiet pause during a beauty school dropout song. Dad? What's a hooker?

She should listen to the pretty woman rewatchables. You know, I usually, when your voice or Bill's voice comes ringing out. I wasn't on that one, but I did appreciate how many times Bill, Bill single-handedly brought the word hooker back. Let me say, it's funny that you say bring it back because I can't believe you didn't ask what my two-step was, my answer was. What was it? You know, there's so much old-fashioned slang in this movie, I'm not really sure. Good job.

Yeah. Yeah. On a dime, I said that. Speaking of Bill, famous for many things, but among others, showing his children in a appropriate popular culture? It's wild to me. When do you think you're going to start thrown on, I don't know, let's start with Goonies. Like, when do you, never?

I saw Goonies in the theater and I'm not over it. Like, that freaked me the fuck out. You're still shook one about Chester Copper Pot? Chunk. Right? That's Goonies, right? Chunks just a kid, the guy. Who's the scary face guy?

Slog, sloth? Sloth? Yeah, I think so. See, this is my level of understanding of it. Anyway, never. Next question. Never. You're never going to show you.

My wife... It's going to be like dog tooth. They don't know about Cooney's my wife showed my older daughter Westside story like a year and a half ago. She was afraid of rumbles for two weeks. She thought rumbles were things that happened out in the world still.

Really? Yes. She was scared of rumbles. But she must be exciting. I mean, like the Spielberg version is coming. Why would she know that? Do you think she gets a deadline, push alert? On her Fisher-Praise phone?

She's like, Daddy, what's packaging? Guys, this is a thing. My children have not seen the cartoon Dumbo. And my parents come to town, Grandma, Grandpa come, and they're like, are you excited to see a live-action dumbo? What do those words mean in that order? We just talked to Colin Farrell about the live-action demo. It's not rush to think so I knew you'd mention it.

Why, I just casually mention it? You mean the podcast guest I had first? Yeah, congratulations. I saw you did that. Bill and I interviewed Colin Farrell for Bill Simmons' podcast. You did it. That's coming soon. I did it.

And Andy's response wasn't like, I know that's your favorite actor. Yeah. I'm really happy for you. It was like, how was he? He's such a magical guy. Yeah.

Like, because he were like, I talked to him first. Yeah. Did I mention that? What did you talk to him about? I can't remember. You,

you mostly. But what was the, what was the hook? Like, what was he promoting? The lobster. That's not how he talks. Is that how you,

are you sure you were to be called? No, that was the groundskeeper from last night's season premiere of Veep. Okay. Talking about his favorite, Your Ghost Lenthalmos film. We talked to, oh, I mean, you know, so many things, and it was a rainy day in Manhattan. I think the conversation continued after the mics were off, you know, about Yates.

I think we talked about. Did you? It felt like Yates. I think it was more fright night, but it was, no, we talked about the lobster. We talked about, you know, just his career. He's a lovely, lovely guy. I remember the pot. I just can't remember what you talked about.

How did you find him? Dynamite. Did you talk about Miami Vice? Uh-huh. I don't want to step too much on the podcast. Does he have good memories of that time? No. Does he have any memories of that time?

No. I didn't think so. He does not. Amazing. All right, well, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. Wait, I'm happy for you. I know you're always happy for me. You just wanted to let me know.

It wasn't that. It was that Superfan Joreen, whom you met. I know, yes, who said, yes, like, Andy must be so jealous. And I was like... It's not so jealous. No, look, I wouldn't have tweeted if I wasn't a little... little bit jealous. Of course I'm jealous.

He was great. That pot should be up, I hope, I think, this week since it's Dumbo related. Did you watch Dumbo in order to... Oh, the whole reason I said this was, at the end of the pot, not to give anything away. Bill says to Colin Farrell... Are you going to give this away? I'm going to go away. So excited about it.

Because it's like the end of like a 15-minute podcast. He goes, in one sentence, tell people why they should see Dumbo. And Colin Farrell's eyes, like, I don't really think Dumbo needs like an explanation. I mean, the elephant can fly. People are like either in or out on Dumbo. And Colin Farrow goes, no, see Dumbo if you want to see Dumbo. First of all. Did Bono come into the...

I also, I can't get too into what happens on that podcast, but... But someone asked, I just feel like there, as soon as the photo emerged of longtime Phillies fan, Chris Ryan, wearing his Phillies hat, next to Colin Farrell, immediately on internet. That's what people say, right? On internet, people were like... Chris, did you show him your Bono imitation? And I just want to tell the people, from all my sources, say yes, he did. So we should leave it like, is that? All right, let's take a break to you from our sponsors.

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We joke. We laugh because we love to laugh on this podcast. We have to. You gotta laugh. Keep them crying. The thing about movies, Chris, says long time non-movie watcher Andy Greenwald. It is in that Dumbo question,

which is, I don't think anybody's on the fence about Dumbo. Yeah, it's like Avengers, too. There's no one needs to be convinced. No one's going to see... They don't need it. It was really funny yesterday. I went to see... I went to see us for the second time.

I took my wife to it. Yeah. And we went to the vista where you and I saw Captain Marvell. Did you have a similar experience with her? She also dazzled by being in the world. They did show the Godzilla King of Monsters trailer. And it was a pre-packed theater. So shout out to Jordan Peel.

But on a Sunday afternoon. Yeah. It ends. And somebody in the theater just shouts out. I'm seeing that. it. There was a trailer for Pet Cemetery. Yeah. And like my wife had seen it before, but their guy next

to me was like, what's this about? And I was like, he asked you? No, he'd asked his date. And it was like, the movie's called Pet Cemetery. Yeah, it's about dead animals. It's right there. But misspellings, too, a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit. So I think a lot of the movies we have today, because they're remixed versions of things that we had in the past, it's like, do you really need to know? Dumbo could just say Dumbo in Ariel font. Yeah. No, in comic sands. Everyone gets it.

The elephant flies. But similarly, there's no one on, not just America at this point, no one on Earth, who sat out the first 21 Marvel movies and sees the poster with the sad raccoon on it. And it's like, well, I've got to see how this wraps up. There's nobody. And that's kind of interesting. Does you see how long that movie is? It's three hours and two minutes.

That's fucking insanity. I'm so excited. Are you actually excited? Yeah. Oh, I'm very excited. I re-watched one and two recently. Of the Wiedens. You watched the first two Avengers film?

Because they're on Netflix, right? No, I just, I watched them. Sean's doing a... Oh, yeah. How they hold up? They're different animals, different beasts. Raccoons. There's actually, they could both use some raccoons.

It is interesting to kind of think about guardians being like this page-turning moment for the Avengers, because, like, you can tell that there is, there's a lot of like good bans in the first two movies but like the whole thing kind of changes around Guardians it becomes a little bit more itself I think a little looser I bring this up not because we're going to go on a big tangent because obviously these movies are coming and a lot of other culture is coming

but I just hadn't fully thought of that that as a difference between movies and TV because for example I got a I guess still get press emails and I got an email from Netflix about some new show called Dead Like Me and it's I think it's Linda Cardellini. And I hadn't heard about it. I know nothing about it.

And I thought, maybe, maybe. Maybe this is for me. Maybe this is something I'm interested in. And particularly with the major studio films, they've given up that. That is a variable that they have eliminated for business purposes. The maybes. The maybes. Convince me.

Talk me and do it. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Right. from a business perspective, that works for the studios. But I guess I still like the... As someone who's making a maybe, a big maybe right now. Some guy somewhere in Burbank must be in a basement and he's got two computer screens

and it's basically like the chances that somebody will get tired of Dumbo are lower than the chances of somebody who doesn't understand the movie like the alternative title of something where it's like, okay, well it's so hard to explain to someone what, I don't know, like, that Shane Black movie from a few years ago, the nice guys. And you had to, like, be like, well, it's like a 70s kind of like hard-boiled detective thing,

but it's funny. And it's about like this and like they're chasing down this porn king. Like you have to like explain the plot. Now, I don't know whether or not that insults the intelligence of most people to be like, you guys just, it just takes too long to explain a movie. So we're just going to make Dumbo every 10 years. I think that it's, you can look at it that way. And from our perspective of the kind of stories we'd want told,

I think that's accurate. But I also think, you know, now that I'm a corporate stooge, I think that on some level it's a rational response to changing facts on the ground and the window to get information to people is so tiny. Yeah. Well, also the two experiences are different. I mean, I think that going to the theater,

people look at as not a chore, but like they want... It's an investment. It's an investment. and people expect an ROI. And if you just turn something on return on investment. Oh, I thought you were saying the French word for king. No. Fois.

It was not. You expect a return on your investment. Speaking of corporate stooges. Do you want me to be your agent? Do you not know what that means? I have never heard that before. R-O-I? Never.

Are you serious? Yeah. What's SRO mean? Standing room only. What's the thing about search results? SEO? Oh, yeah. What's that?

Search engine optimization? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what that is either. You just said what it is. You don't know what that means when you write... I said SRO. That means the difference is basically, like, remember at Grantland where every headline was like a cryptic pun that referred to a Cormac McCarthy novel? It was great.

And then now it's more like, what this thing tells you about something you already know about? That's why I don't... That's why there's no place for me on the internet anymore. No, but like I just, I just mean that... But for you, that might not be effective. For 98% of the people who might come across that article... I agree. They'll be like, oh, okay.

They didn't, they didn't like mood Meridian. I'm just trying to come up with a Cor McArthur pun. That's really good. Can I steal that? Yes. Not for the ringer, though, because that would de-optimized. What was I talking about ROI? Oh, yeah.

The theaters. For Netflix, though, like if you, we've talked about this. The ease of use for Netflix makes it so that I think people give more things, more chances. Well, yeah, but, you know, it's funny. We were sitting here classic, classic watch bit. Classic meat, dogging on movies. movies bit. Everyone loves that, especially Sean Fennessee. But while I was saying it, the first thing that popped into my mind in terms of this, the small window to get people's

attention is the Netflix auto play. Is the Netflix like you can't even, I mean, everyone has, not everyone, many people have different app for integration with it. But on my Apple TV, when I go to Netflix and I'm browsing, which is what I spend 90% of my life doing. You sound like you're 1,000 years old. I am. But it starts, you know, the trailer starts playing immediately. I know, yeah. Which I find awful. Maybe I just want to linger for a second. I don't really want to watch Santa Clarita diet. Maybe I needed to pick up a cold beverage. Maybe I'm being called from the other room. You don't know me Netflix. Relax, is what I'm saying. What did your wife say when you were watching Triple Frontier? Are you

enjoying this? Is that how you feel about this podcast, watching me spin out? Let's talk about TV shows. Barry back. Let's do Barry first. Want to Barry second? I want to do Barry second because we have a short, short window on the VEP. I don't have a lot to say about it. Yeah, let's do Veep. Veep chose to Veep is back and, you know, like the sort of concern troll about like, how does Veep react to Trump's America?

It's like obviously not a thing. It's just funny. I was sort of impressed by Veep's ability to still go high and inside to borrow a baseball tournament. And not only go high and inside, but go back to the mass shooting joke four times. Four times.

Yeah. That was after the, the triple play, the triple frontier of abortion humor. Yeah. And speaking of SEO, the biggest laugh in my household was the Terrence Malick joke. So, win, win, win. When you say that, was that your daughter? Yeah.

Which is like, I love that. Badlands is such a classic. Then she showed me the entry for a hooker under the In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. It's interesting what happens with shows have been on for a while. and they become not always the best version of themselves, but the most version of themselves. And Veep changed a lot when Inuchi, who created the show, stepped away and David Mandel came on. And I think it definitely steered harder into the jokes.

Not that it was an issue-oriented comedy before. A lot of Inuchi's vibe was also a lot more about sort of the rhythm and the feeling of it and there's this sort of the chilly air. I mean, there's something so specific about it. his shows in the comedy that he does. Now it is just, it's almost like an All-Star game. It's almost obscene the number of comedic actors who are back for curtain calls. And then just they're still adding people. They're adding Andy Daly. Like, I don't understand how they have room for that. And you look, you wait for the credits and their jokes are still going because the show keeps

running through the credits. And you see this murderers row in the writers room now. It used to be a much smaller circle of British writers. And now like Ian Maxstone Graham, whose name is on 300 of the thousand episodes of The Simpsons, if not more. Jennifer Crittenden, all these sitcom royalty have come in to just take BP basically. And then you think about the fact that the season was delayed over a year because of Julie Louie Wied Dreyfus' health issues

and she's thankfully doing so much better now, clearly. They had a lot of time to just keep worrying it, working it, and massaging it, and putting more jokes into it. That, honestly, I was loving it for 15 minutes and then I was exhausted. Like, I kind of wanted to take a walk. Because it was almost like,

nine jokes per minute. It hit like a kind of max. It was just high volume, high velocity. And then you're like, why is Sam Richardson in both campaigns? They made that a joke. It's wild. I'm amazed by it. I mean, don't get me wrong. I love this show. But I was like,

this is a lot of jokes, man. Right? Tim Simon's performance of Jonah was really special. I mean, he's obviously a friend of the pod. He's like a great guy. But Jesus, he was just really He's really exposing himself out there. It's so amazing.

Last night's Veep and last seasons, too, I guess, featured my number one and my number two L.A. Datingtons, East Side Daddington's. Tim and Paul Shear, great to see them being their best selves on TV. Yeah, Tim, Tim's on one. It's just insane. It's insane to me that you have Gary Cole and Kevin Dunn, who are two of the greatest, maybe just greatest actors. Yeah, and they're just like middle relievers. We're using a lot of baseball. It's like having them in those roles on the show is like batting Michael Franco 8.

That's right. Where he's just hitting home run after home run. Let's talk about Barry then. Okay. Barry back. Barry's back. Talk to me about Barry. I think any show that's on HBO gets a different level of like interrogation than almost any other. Still, to this day, than almost any other show.

So even like sharp objects, it's like gets put under like much more of a microscope. then if it had been just like on FX or Netflix or something like that. So it's interesting the narrative around Barry being like, what are they going to do next? How are they going to account for this character being a bad guy? And Allison wrote about this really well. I read a really good Washington Post piece about both Veep and Barry that sort of interrogated this idea.

But I did feel like, and Hater talked about this with Simmons, that he was like the first season finished. were like, it's really great. I hope that you don't make any more of it. And he was like, it was a really weird thing to be like, oh, okay. But the thing I love about Barry is that it kind of exists outside of that. Like, there are some shows that you can feel them taking notes from the wider public and from the audience. And Barry does not.

And I just want to say that it was wild because the guy who replaced Barry as a hitman for Funks in the Fuchs. Fuchs. Yeah, I love it. Dr. Funks. The guy who replaced Barry as the hitman in the early scene

the amazing Cleveland scene. I think it was like a bartender in L.A. I think I've had him as a bartender. You know that guy? Yeah, I think so. Did you tip him well? Yeah, always. Yeah. I'm just checking. I always, like, are you worried he's coming for you? I love that guy. Yeah. There is a criminal lack of buybacks in Los Angeles.

Interesting. Did you know that? I guess you probably don't hit bars. I don't put a bars anymore. You know, because like in Brooklyn, yeah, and the aughts. Oh, man.

You buy three, you get one free. Yeah. Sometimes less. Sometimes they would just give them to you. Yeah. Sometimes they let you go behind the stick. Just dispensed draft.

Start pouring pines for working men, yeah. Um, back then the attitude in Brooklyn bars was, if you want to see Dumbo, see Dumbo. You know what I mean? Like, that was really the governing ethos.

Yeah. There's always a guy on the corner being, like, you want to see Dumbo? There's something. It's never, never an issue to see Dumbo in New York. I like how Barry seems to exist outside of the commentary about Barry, and last night's episode could have come on five minutes after the finale of last season ended. Hero Morai directed it expertly.

I thought that the way in which he does sort of pitter-patter dialogue between characters that then erupts into these sort of, you know, absolutely eyeball-searing moments of violence were really, really, really, like, gripping. He's an amazing director. I mean, it is so beautifully lit this show, even in the most humble locations, like the North Hollywood parking lot

where the acting studio is. Yeah, like when he meets Hank for the second time. Yeah. It's an incredible scene, and there's so much thought into it. And I like what you said about how it exists in its own universe. Because at this point,

and I was already doing this when I was a critic, but especially now, like, I sometimes can't get out of the medical commentary and I spent a lot of time, too much time watching the season premiere, wondering about tone, concern trolling in my own head about the balance of this show, where we are supposed to take the acting seriously as a desire, but they also really make fun of actors, which is kind of an easy thing to do, that you can have a scene like the Noho Hank love letter to the Bolivians montage and also have the scene at the end. where Anthony Carrigan, who plays Noho Hank, more than earns his new regular billing, because that's an incredible scene, where you can have the violence in the comedy and all of it.

And it doesn't matter, because they understand what they're doing. They have a line, and they have a compass of what makes sense to them. And sometimes you've got to relax. Sometimes I've got to relax and settle into it and trust them. And if it's, I find it jarring, that's on me. Because I do think that there are steady hands on the till on the show.

They seem to understand what they're doing. They even seem to have a plan in place for, or at least a sense of how long they can make this run. I don't think this is going to be a seven-season show. They seem to understand the show they're making. And when you can buy into that and trust it, then you're off to the races. Because it can be jarring. And there were moments like Barry doing a kind of Australian accent where you're like, are they just doing this now? Is he just going to be Bill Hader, the Bill Hader that we wanted him to be on some level and that the first season was a rejection of?

you got to relax into it. There is a mastery to the show. Obviously, taking also advantage, like Veep of the HBO budget, where you have Darcy Cardin, who is Emmy-worthy on The Good Place, just not even way at the bottom of the guest stars at the end of it. Sure. Carrie Howell Baptiste, also from The Good Place on the show, just in a very small part.

That Lulu Levin scene was really funny. It was really funny. I mean, the show was really funny. But, anyway, just to say that, like, as someone who is trying to write an hour-long drama, that's very funny, it was rich and maybe more telling on myself that I was like, this half-hour comedy

shouldn't be so dark. I'm excited. Sometimes it's weird to have thoughts both as a critic and as a commentator and a podcaster and then also be like, well, what are they doing? How can I try to learn from that? And then just be like, no, no, they got it.

They shot the season, relax and let's watch it. It's an interesting, I think that it's, this is a show that comes into an era when I think we more regularly ask whether or not the people on, we see on screen are like good people. and whether or not we should be spending time with people who aren't good people.

Yeah. And that is... They talk about what they are as people a lot. Well, and that's reflected on the fact that as you and I have joked often about, is that frequently you'll have like moments in shows and movies where people, where characters will say like, am I a good person or I'm not a bad person?

Yeah. You know, like that is an obsession with contemporary fictional characters on screen. But I think that... I think that that's a concern of Barry, the show, but I don't think it's an overriding concern. I don't think it's a thing that they're consumed by in the writer's room is whether or not Barry's good.

I think that they're like, Barry's not good. No, he's not good. Yeah, Barry's a murderer. So just like take that, whether you're interested in watching this show about a murderer is kind of up to you. I thought that they did a really good job of communicating what you're saying in a forward momentum storytelling way.

And generally, I'm not the biggest fan of. flashbacks, but that flashback... The Afghanistan flashback... The Afghanistan flashback, the face that Hader made when he suddenly celebrated after being dismissed his whole life for doing something abhorrent told us everything we need to know about the character.

And it paid a lot backwards towards the first season and understanding it, and it pays it forward towards wherever the ultimate end point of the show is. It was really well done. Yeah. And it's fun to have it back. It's fun to have it back to bringing this conversation full circle to the HBO-ness of it. Like, it...

Like we said, it's week to week. We can talk about it now. The budget is obscene. You're going to be good actors on it. It's fun to have that back. And it, you know, reminds me that killing Eve is coming back imminently. Yeah, Fossy Verdon and then Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones in two weeks.

I can't believe that. Yeah. It feels bringing this conversation all the way back to the beginning. Inside the bubble of this industry where we live and we work, it's like it's already over. It's like, because every decision made in terms of what shows to invest, and casting and everything is all as if Game of Thrones was this, you know, it's the grail to chase again. So do you think that's the case or do you think it's going to be looked at as like, well, that is,

that's the 1927 Yankees. No one's ever going to do that again. Well, they've been chasing it for years and there's still, the first fruits of that are still to come, like with the Lord of the Rings show and everything. But what I mean is the thing I just said to myself about relax, like I think that even as cultural commentators, and I say this as someone who will not be, I guess, I'm not going to be joining you obsessing over it in the minutes after the show air. No, you'll be like on Mondays.

I can relax more about it. It's just been so long. It's like, it's just actually going to be a thing now. Yeah. We're not just going to be talking about trailers and what it means and it's going to be a thing. That's my favorite part about it, though. But it's a thing. Yeah, I'd like to have it back.

I've been rewatching a bunch of it. I was rewatching seven just to, you know, get back in shape. And even, I mean, seven is way better than a lot of TV. Yeah. You know, which was, I think it was maligned for some of the more TV aspects of it. Like, they get from different places on the map very quickly or somebody's like, I'll be right back. And then goes off and does like a two-season long mission and comes back. But just genuinely, like just like the level of writing, the replacement level of writing there is higher than most other shows.

And the acting is still so superb. And it is such a fascinating show. I think it's interesting to go back through the entire run, as the binge mode guys have done so well, and kind of note the different kinds of shows it's been over the years. Yes. I was having a conversation with, I think maybe fantasy, about when it changed from being about, you know, politics and power

to being more of an epic struggle of good versus evil, which I think is probably after Red Wedding to some extent, or maybe after the Taiwan toilet. exit. Yeah. But like, you know, it's been a couple of different shows over the years. It's such a time capsule, though, and what you just said, because remember that when HBO Greenlit the show, it felt like a very strange choice for them. It was kind of a reach. And they almost had to, they felt, they had to prioritize the political gamesmanship and all of the things that are recognizable to people who watch The Wire Deadwood, the Sopranos, to be a prestige show,

to be worthy of Sunday nights on HBO. You're right. When in fact, that runs so antithetical to our culture, which is just like, oh, a show about dragons wrecking shop? Yeah. Greenlighted. But that was an HB. That was a thing, whether it was HBO or whether it was the way we talked about HBO shows,

we would often be like how the wire explains blank, you know, whereas I think genre itself has become so preeminent in our culture that people are just like, yeah, cool. Like his dark material is coming. like I don't need it to be about like the rise of like Euroscepticism. It's just going to be a good fantasy show. But the story of HBO, at least the story pointing forward, is the story of Game of Thrones. And this is the anecdote I've told many times, but I'll say it again, just that going to

boardwalk empire premier parties in New York. Yeah, yeah. And they were like, this is who we are. This is our business. And me like, no, no, this is not our business. And the incredible good fortune and good management and good decision make, whatever we want to credit it to, that allowed them to. literally ride a dragon from one era of television

into content boom AT&T merger. We're going to put three spinoffs on your phone. That's the bridge. They had the show that got them there, and now we're the end of it. Fascinating times, Noho, Chris. Fascinating times. Greenwald, I don't know if you'll be on Thursday.

Let's see how the rewriting goes today. Okay. We have some fun shows coming up with some cool guests, so all related to the shows that are coming up in the next couple weeks. Just tell me Colin Farrell's going to be here and I will feel such... Every Thursday, Colin's doing a residency. Fomo jealousy. We're just going minute by minute on Dumbo. Kaya, thank you as always.

All right, so talk to you guys on Thursday. Great job, right. Today's episode of the watch was brought to you by ADT with ADT Real Protection. You can get all of the latest innovation in smart home security from ADT combined with 24-7 monitoring from the most trusted name in home security. Get the nation's number one smart home securities provider and a system custom designed to fit your home and get the ADT go app with an SOS button for safety on the go. Learn more at ADT.com slash podcasts.