The Watch - ‘X-Men ’97’ and the State of Comic Book TV. Plus, How Much “Reality” Is in Jerrod Carmichael’s ‘Reality Show’?

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

Chris is joined by Ringer-Verse host Charles Holmes to talk about the new animated series ‘X-Men ’97’ and how it’s the latest installment in what has become the genre of “nostalgia” television (1:00). Then, they talk about the first few episodes of the ‘Jerrod Carmichael Reality Show,’ how much “reality” there is in this reality TV show (37:14), and where this show fits in with the evolving idea of what a standup comic does (54:50). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Charles Holmes Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, picking up from the events of 1997, it's Charles Holmes.

Oh, what's up, man? How are you? Great to see you. Oh, man, you know, just living this LA lifestyle, you know. I have to be honest, I did not want to burn pod. Oh, yeah? I have to bring something up to you. Dude, come ahead.

When you asked me like, yo, you want to be on the watch? Oh, you thought Andy was going to be here. No. Okay. I knew Andy wasn't going to be here. And shout out to Andy and little admin. I just, I mixed up his spring breaks. He just has so many.

So I just didn't know what was happening when and what part of the nation he was going to be. And he'll be back on Thursday. My issue with this is that, you know, Andy has been on a heater. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's been a really good time for Andy.

He's been on the like, the Blackthorn voice is kind of just like when you're like, oh, LeBron can play forever. No, you know what it is? It's also for me, it's like, because voices were kind of like, that's how I, that's my bread and my butter. Yeah, and he kind of stepped in your corner.

And then it was just like, oh, like, what if Tiger Woods was also great at math? You know what I mean? Like, I didn't know. Like, I didn't know Andy also had that in his bag. I actually did know. Andy's actually, like, low-key, the better impressionist of the two of us. But yes. But he's been on a heater.

You invited me on. I'm just like, yo, the watch listeners are going to be like, dog, like, really? You get and die, Andy. Come on. But I'm honored. Never that. Never that. So today Charles and I are going to talk a little bit about, I want to talk to him a little

bit about nostalgia because obviously there's an age gap between me and Charles, but I think we're both feeling some similar things about the nostalgia industry. I'll put it that way. We're also going to talk a little bit about the Gerard Carmichael reality show, which premiered, I think, on Friday on Max and on the HBO network, family of networks. And that's a really interesting conversation to have. I'm not sure how, I'm not sure where I'm at with that show. And then also we can just hit some other stuff, maybe some showgun. I can try and sell you on three bodies. problem or whatever. I want to tell you a little story though. This morning. Back in town

after a weekend sojourn. Had to re-up on Greek yogurt and bananas. So I hit up Gelson's as I want to do. And I was there and you know, ringing up, cashier was like, do you need a bag? And I was like, that's all right. Baller. I don't need a bag for

four bananas and some Greek yogurt. I can do this. But there was a bagger there and the cashier and the bagger having a conversation. They just like pick up after I've declined to point. in the planet any further. And they were like, yeah,

so it's this Godzilla show with Kurt Russell and his son. And it's called Godzilla minus one. And I was like, I'm sitting there and I got these bananas and I got this Greek yogurt for my protein and I'm just like, you know what?

I'm just going to mind my own fucking business. Why am I going to jump in and be like, actually, actually, that's Kong legacy you guys were talking about. First of all, Chris, you have never,

you have never struck me as someone who would like hop in. There's certain people who like hop in. I'll hop in about lots of stuff. I'll hop in about sports all day. I'll be like, oh yeah, I saw that. The TV is different. But I don't hop in. I was just like, this is actually like a great window into the difference between how seriously stuff gets taken maybe in like our podcast and stuff like that where we're like, hold on.

I got to remember like the lineage and I got to remember the chronology and the names and the everything versus like in Gen. in Genpop, people are just trying to have a good time and they don't really care if it's Godzilla or King Kong or if it's Kurt Russell. And I was like, so for me to be like, actually Godzilla minus one is a parable about the nuclear age.

A lot of people thought it was actually just as astute about that age as Oppenheimer. And it's like, no, no, no. Nobody wants to hear that, you know? Like, it was just like very funny to like, do you ever have like when you're out in the world and you're like all week long, you're doing battle with Van and Steve and Jomey

on Midnight Boys? You guys are like thrown around like what would Cyclops really do in this situation or whatever. And then you get out and you're at the barbershop, you're at a bar, you're at a restaurant, you're whatever. And you're hearing like chatter about like the same topic. And you realize that everybody else is free and we're the ones in the jail. That is my entire life. Like quite literally went to the barbershop. And my barber goes, yo, so what's your feelings on, you know?

Kendrick, Future, Drake, give them to me. And I'm like, do you want like my music critic opinions or my normie opinions? Like, nah, give it to me. Like, da, da, da, da, da, da. It inspired like an hour long argument. And I was just like, this isn't worth it, bro. Right. This is, like, like, similarly, like, women will be like, oh, what's your podcast about?

Let me look it up. And I'm just like, if you look up my podcast or listen to 30 seconds of it, I will never talk to you. Right. And they're like, why? And I'm just like, you don't need me to hear me yelling at three grown men about how they didn't adapt psychosis. Madeline Pryor's story, correct? Like, no, dog, no.

So do you feel like it's like the knowledge winds up? Like, are you getting to the point? Because this is the reason why I wanted to talk to you this week, is you guys were talking about X-Men 97, which is this animated series on Disney Plus that's been airing. I completely missed the original animated series. I think I knew it existed, but I had no relationship. How old were you in 97?

I was hanging out in Boston, age. Like, I was in college. Like, so I was 20 in 97, I think. So you weren't like Van. You weren't crushing X-Men tape. Not Ben. No. I mean, and also, like, to, like, I think you guys talked about this a little bit

about some of the series and like, even some of like, what was the one that was the movie kind of that came on, it would only come on at like three in the morning. Oh, yeah, Van was talking about because like, I've seen that one. It was like, I want to say it might have been Kitty Pride or Kitty Prime. Yeah, it was like, and it was this weird.

type of like show that was supposed to be a show but never became one so it just ended up as a long movie. Yeah, I mean, this is like we started getting more and more into like the way wagon trains worked, but back then in 97, I don't think we had cable at the house I was living at. If we did, it was only to watch sports. And then like the in the home media rotation was not some bootleg copy of the X-Men animated series. So, but you have to understand. It's not like I had it at my fingertips. Had I had Disney Plus in 1997, maybe I would have watched the animated show.

I doubt it. But yeah, I was not watching it then. So this is like a fun, like, that is a foundational text to me. Also because like all my uncles had grown up on like the Chris Claremont stuff, Star Trek everything. So when the TV show came out, it was the one time where they're just like, oh, y'all watching that nerdy Disney shit? Let me put y'all on. And then it would be like X-Men. And that was the first time I'm like,

this motherfucker got knives coming out of his hands. Oh shit, let's go to the comic bookstore. See, my relationship to comics is different. Like, I feel like I'm the dude who got to try heroin once with comics. And I, like, really, really had, like, an intense couple of summers with it. But I was able to then leave it, like, behind and, like, move on. Not move on, like, it's better for you to move on. But, like, I was able to, like, then go into other things.

while still retaining some baseline of knowledge. And I know now, like, Andy, Andy has such, like, a complete grasp of, like, X-Men narrative. And I'll be like, what did Cable do again? Didn't he go back in time? But he had a disease, but he was trying to kill somebody who had the disease. Yeah. But here's the thing.

Chris, I feel like I had a similar trajectory to you, you know, where it was just like, it was comic book, comic books. I was coming to school and middle school with the comic book t-shirts, whatever. And then it was, like, the mixtape era. Oh, I was like, oh, shit, Lil Wayne is popping. oh, J's, like, da-da-da-da-da-a-canis. And I'm like, overnight, I was just like, dog, I'm getting no shoddies with the comic books.

Yeah. So I kind of, like, tuck that in. And did you get a lot of shoddies with the mixtapes? I'll feel. You know, I was cleaning up, but they were just like, hey, if he's going to talk my ear off. Dad-piff message boards, you guys were really connecting. I mean, hey, all I will say is that, like,

the shot is just like, you know what? I would much rather hear him talk about, like, why I can't feel my face is on the great songs. versus like what is cable doing in the fucking future. But Nathan Summers' inheritance and what that really is about. Unfortunately, with the ringer when I came over here, they pulled me back in.

For years, I was just like, oh shit, I get to be the guy at the bar. It's like, that music y'all like, kind of whack. And now I'm just like, oh, random people coming to me at a party and they're just like, everything you just said about X-Men 97 is fucking bullshit and I hate you.

And I'm just like, dog, you are blowing up my fucking spot. No. Is it like X-Men 97? What's that? Okay, so the reason why I'm bringing all this up is that you guys were sort of, if you listen to Midnight Boys, like they'll have like these, it's basically like this roundtable discussion between Charles and Van, and then it's Jomi and Steve weighing in as well. And they will very vociferously argue their feelings about whatever given property they're talking about that week.

Obviously X-Men 97 came up and it was. almost like when you're watching a Paul Thomas Anderson movie and the title doesn't get shown until 21 minutes in. I was like, Charles hasn't talked yet. Because Jomey and Stephen Van were like, this is it. This is the original Coke recipe. This is what we do this for. This is why we get up every day. This is why we grind the tape.

It's because of feelings like this. and BAM was really actually talking about like this is about as close to in my brain when I bring comics to life in my brain and think about it. You know, and if you daydream a storyline from a comic book

that this is it for him. Yeah. And it goes and goes, it goes. And then Charles is just like, just didn't hit for me. You know, and I could hear the regret in your voice

because you sincerely did seem happy that those guys were happy. Oh, that's why like usually, you know, I'm in there immediately. like arguing. And it's like, X-Men, I think, holds a special place not only in my heart, but if you're of a certain generation, especially if you're black, like, I don't even, like, go to the comic store anymore, but I will still pop in with the X-Men just because I care

about them so much. Yes. And I knew that that is a lot of what the conversation was going to be. So usually I'm so excited to fucking step on their shit. It just be like, fall, oh, la-da-da-da-da. This is terrible. And I actually in the moment was like, I feel like an ass whole having to like pop the balloon. Well, and especially over this particular franchise, right? Because it's not, it doesn't give you any joy to be let down by something that I think for a lot,

I think if all of us share one thing in the watch, like in Housebar like I definitely feel like, even Fetasy, recognizes that like X-Men is the one. Yes. Like X-Men is the thing that probably was the gateway drug. Maybe Spider-Man

was because like you look at it and you're like, that's a teenager too. It's just like me or whatever. But like X-Men is the one where you're like, this feels very adult. This feels very like emotionally fucked up. But also the story is insane. And as you keep reading the comics,

you're like, how am I watching this thing about like clone gene, you know, coming back from Mr. Sinister and all this stuff that's like pretty complicated for a young reader and then pretty engaging as you get older and return to them? Like I'm not going to, I do go back and read some X-Men stuff.

And I'm like, this is pretty out there. Like, this is pretty awesome the way that they're introducing these pretty adult and or transgressive ideas through this superhero team up. I mean, I always envision the X-Men. The best X-Men writers, like, this is going to sound like a joke. It's not. That's where they get their freak shit off. Like, if you go back and you read like the Claremont comic, you're like, dog, there's BDSM in this shit. Yes.

There's, it's like people are cheating. People are falling in and out of love. There's love triangles in it. And I think the reason X-Men resonates so much is I could be like a black person walking into a club. And I might meet a queer person or someone who's like Latino or whatever. And if you just start talking about X-Men nine times out of 10, they're like, oh, shit, let me tell you about my favorite X-Men maggot from the night. And I'm like immediately your friends, whether you agree or not. And I think the thing that kind of, and you can help me through this because I'm aging now.

Yeah. I'm officially washed when I go out, the 20-year-olds are like, you're fucking washed, is that I don't know who X-Men 97 is for or I know who it's for in terms of like, this is a show

that is supposed to be for the 5, 6, 7, 8-year-old in me at 31. And that is just not an interesting artistic proposition to me anymore because I feel like we are coming out of 15 years where I was like,

oh shit, it's happening. happening. We're finally able to pull off all the stuff. It's all going to be great. It's all going to be good. And we're now kind of getting to a point where X-Mind 97, it's like, oh, you guys are quite literally verbatim just picking up where this left off. The animation doesn't look that great.

The storylines, the way they talk is exactly like the 90s show. And we talked about it on the Midnight Boys. I'm like, 90s cartoons are very much like, all right, we're restating the. problem every five minutes because dumb kids can't pay attention and they're still doing that and I'm like dog I can't get jiggy with this shit.

I'm watching show I can't get jiggy with this shit at 31 I'm sorry. So the one of the most pernicious and interesting things that's happened with nostalgia is obviously the creation of the nostalgia industry and to scale nostalgia they've basically compressed the time that something becomes an object

of nostalgia for people. So I mean at the ringer and Grant like we were not above, like, we started noticing that people would get really into the five-year anniversary of something, the 10-year anniversary of something, because you widen the aperture of people who can participate in the celebration and the memory, the memory exercise of being like, oh yeah, that's when Interpol's record came out. You know what I mean? And we're, you know, we really, like, I think probably because the way that the internet just churns through experience so much faster than the world

before the internet. It already feels like Cowboy Carter's been out for like six weeks, right? And it's like the shit leaked, came out, had a masterpiece cycle, a blowback cycle, and now there's like an explainer cycle. And it already feels like, I feel like that record came

out like Valentine's Day or something. I feel like there are so many quite literal tangents of the Cowboy Carter because it's like the cycle started even before that. All the Diddy stuff started happening. It started with the Super Bowl, right?

Yeah, and then we get the Super Bowl. And then once the Diddy stuff started happening, Jay gets in the news because everybody's like, let's, I don't know why they're attacking each other. Like, let's get Jay out of the cut too. And then it was just like, Cowboy Carter comes out and they're just like, all right, it's the country album. And then it's like there's a Jolene conversation.

There is a what is and isn't country conversation. There's like, can we even critique Beyonce conversation? And I'm like, this record feels like it's been out for a year already. And I don't even want to talk about it. And to your point, nostalgia, because I was of the age when I'm reading Grant Land or reading a bunch of websites where I'm like, oh, this is so dope. Five-year anniversies, 10-year anniversaries, pitchfork goes crazy. Shout out, Jeff Weiss.

I was reading his mad villainy piece, all that shit. I was like, I was growing up on that stuff. And you probably feel it, us working at the ringer where it's like, nostalgia almost doesn't do what it used to do anymore because we're burnt. out on it. So that's exactly where the thing that's amazing about X-Men 97. So like two weeks ago, I think like one bored night, I like went back and watched a

couple of episodes of the original series on Disney Plus where it has all the seasons right there. Now X-Men 97 is there. Three episodes have come out, I think, maybe four. Yeah, three. And it sounds like this will be a running thing for Disney and for Marvel. It sounds like they've already the writer has left the show, but like

they've already got like two or three seasons kind of like charted out. But what you're seeing is exactly right. to give it to people, if they're still listening, a non-superhero context, there's been in the news that they're looking to reboot the office. But the office reboot in the X-Men 97 fashion would, I mean, frankly, literally, like, just be, like, the next day,

Jim and Pam come back to the office, and all the characters are back at the office, and Michael has come back to the office. And it is not recognized as a, I mean, I guess in the X-Men 97 thing, it's like Charles Xavier is quote-unquote dead. But it's treated as a major event, but it's not treated as like a timeline-changing event.

It's like, we're just going along. It would just be like, if you were like, you know what, I love the office. I've watched the office five or six times all the way through. I wish there was more office. And they were like, yeah, rather than try and roll the dice and come up with like a new take on the office,

we're just going to make more office. And that is literally what X-Mad97 is. Now, it has much different cultural context, but do you think that's like a fair analogy? That is such a fair analogy. And it was one where I was just like, oh, I'm the one on the outside of this party because for a lot of people, that is exactly actually what they want. Right. They wanted that, like, do not change this at all.

Just serve it up to me exactly how it was in the 90s. But when I was watching it, it was funny, we were arguing. I was like, I don't know if you could like give this. to like Andy's daughters, and they'd be like, cool. Well, they wouldn't have the context clues, right? Because unless they had binged the first one, because when you watch the first one, okay, I'm going to come into this by being like,

I kind of liked it in this sense of 97, in the sense of like the story and the plot points, at least. And even the characterizations to some extent were pretty close to what's in my head when I read the comics. Yeah. the action is not. The action is, I think, quite poor, to quote Sean Fentasy.

And it's like, it is just like, it is like a constant reverse dopamine hit where you get, you think you're supposed to get to a set piece action scene and your adrenaline's supposed to go up because it's exciting. And instead, you're like, oh, these are limitations of the animation that they're doing. And I already have like kind of an animation block anyway. So I find myself really zoning out half like almost one of channel. while people are fighting, even though the scenarios, like in the first episode,

the X-Men come across a Sentinel factory, and for people who don't know, Sentinels are kind of like the X-Men, like, the Red Shirt. Like, it's basically like the robotic villains that attack X-Men. The jobbers, the ones that they just got to dispatch. But it is a pretty awesome

depiction of what Sentinel's look like in terms of scale to the X-Men. Now, like, they are able to just punch out these giant robots and it's pretty stupid. But the actual moment where Trask is like, beep, and wakes all the sentinels up, it's like, yo, this is kind of like, this is what happens in the comic books?

Like, this is it literally like a comic book moment come to life? And there are a few moments sprinkled out throughout the episodes where I was like, it's kind of scratching the old thing. But the idea of taking 97 era or 96 era animation and 96 era writing and. I think you pointed this out where it's like almost all of the dialogue is characters restating where

they are in the story and what has just happened and what might happen. Or what even their powers are sometimes. They're like, I'm rogue and you can't touch me. And I was like, all right. Right. And it is the most like, it was like when they first were like, well, we have to give voices to these characters and they

were like, well, rogue is this like sassy southern woman and Gambit is a Cajun Gambler, you know? Like all these ideas about these people, like, they have not iterated one bit, no, in almost 30 years, right? Like, whatever it's been. So it's pretty crazy to watch this and be like, it is almost like methadone, like to go back to my heroin joke. It's like getting the, like, you know it's the diluted treatment for what you are actually addicted to. But at

the same time, like, there is something in there that, that it's almost like, I'm like, I admire Disney's gall for doing it. But this seems like, this seems like kind of what they're just planning on doing moving forward, even with like Fantastic Four, where it's like, because we've never gotten a good adaptation of Fantastic Four, they're just like, well, how do we get them? They're like, dog nostalgia. We're going back to when Jack and Stan made this shit.

Right. We're going to give you the Beatles song. We're going to give you this feeling. And it's like, that's cool in the same way that like Deadpool, Deadpool 3 is like holding all of superhero cinema on its shoulders. How? Yeah, we're bringing Hugh Jackman back. We're bringing Elektra back.

We're just going full tilt. Are they bringing Electra back? I mean, that's the rumors. Like Jennifer Garner Capital One Venture card? Oh, wow. And that's where we're at with nostalgia where I'm like, yo, like I said, I'm a 31-year-old man. It's, you can't keep hitting that tap until I'm a little, not only burnt out. Sometimes I'm like, this is just, it makes me feel weird now.

It makes me feel kind of gross. And it's like this year for TV and movies to me has been so great because they've run out. And it's like, oh, we would have never talked about Shogun on Midnight Boys in another year. And now it's like, damn, we got invincible X-Men 97. Let's sneak Shogun in here. We can do that.

And I'm like, that's why it's not working for me. Well, okay. So I think that that's a really interesting place to jump off of, though, because there are times when you're into something, when you're a fan of something where you kind of will have this attitude where it's like,

I really just want more of this, right? Like, I think when you're younger, the cool thing about being younger is that like you're voracious. And if you're really into culture, if you're, I remember those mixtape days too.

And it was just like, it literally felt like every Wednesday someone pushed the medium forward. Mm-hmm. You know, you would get a Wayne tape or you would get like

just a gangster girls and find out about three dudes you'd never heard of before. these are like mixtap series from like the aughts and you would be like I feel rap expanding

right before my ears and before my eyes like I can feel the guys tweak what the fuck this art form is like in an almost real time way and it was such a thrill to be a part of that like even as a fan and then to feel like

both as consumers but also as creators people have been like let's hit stop let's hit stop let's just stop let's not take any chances by fucking up you know

like let's not take any chances by doing another Thanos snap you know or anything that might upset people or change the way people relate to this stuff or feel about it

and we'll draw a line and what we'll do now is color in the pictures we've already drawn you know so we'll go back and while these people are all ambulatory

and Hugh Jackman can still game weight muscle mass to do this. We're going to go back and do that. We're going to go back. And instead of doing a new X-Men thing, where we'll have to answer all these questions about like, well, what does this mean

for the live action films that are supposed to be coming? And what does this mean for the MCU timeline and the secret timeline and all this stuff? What if we just gave people literally with a plunger of what they were watching

when they were children? Because that's what they're watching anyway, what they were watching when they were children. But yeah, but it's also, it's this thing where it's like, all these companies are speaking to the vocal minority, like in Star Wars, where it was just like after the fucking last Jedi hit,

it's just like the Clone Wars audience, the Filoni audience, that one who was tapped in there, like, we watch everything, Star Wars is like, all right, you guys are going to lead this. And now it's happening with the MCU, where it's like, oh, we're no longer a product for everyone.

This isn't something like, oh, yo, there's a new Iron Man. boys like we're rolling out. It's like we're talking to the people who are going to get excited that Jennifer Garner Electra is coming back. Right. And I'm just like, that is just a smaller segment, which is like fine. But it's like as as the pie gets smaller, I'm like, why should I be interested in this

anymore? And that's a thing that like on the midnight boys, we even, we have conversations about like, yo, what is fandom anymore? Is Shogun? Is Monkey Man? Is all of these things? Because it feels like even with Barbie and Barbie. Barbenheimer last year. I was like, we have to talk about this stuff in a way that like

when we first started the show, not that long ago with like Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It was like, yeah, we got Wanda Vision, we got Falcon, we got Moon Night, we got all this stuff. There's no time for anything else. And now I'm like, this is the quietest it's been. And I feel rejuvenated. Maybe because everybody's clearing out for Deadpool, like you said, and also because a couple of these franchises are in soft reset mode. So the post-downy era of, Marvel has had like these missteps. So they're like probably like,

okay, how do we basically like clear our books to start again with Fantastic Four and X-Men whenever we decide to do that? That's like basically the chip that they have to play. But the same can be said for Star Wars for as excited as I am for Accolay and especially and or season two. Those are both within the context of Star Wars historical fiction, right? Like they're they're just going to be playing with,

I mean, I guess like nobody's really like seen a, ton of stuff during the period that Acklead is set unless there's video games or something like that but like there's not a lot

of like common knowledge about like what the pre prequel's era of Star Wars was like and that's that's a pretty cool window to look through and or is and or it's almost barely Star Wars in some ways or transcend Star Wars to me

but they still are like I don't know what we're going to do about whether this does the calendar ever flip forward I mean, when they were like, oh, we're doing a Mandalorian movie, I was like, oh, this is y'all. Yeah. Kind of like, all right, this gives us at least two, three more years to figure out what is going to happen.

Because it's like, even with, they're like, oh, we're bringing Daisy Ridley back. I'm like, excuse me, what? It's like, when we're talking about nostalgia, I'm like, is there even enough, has enough time passed for there to be like the Force Awakens nostalgia? Yeah, isn't Daisy Ridley's a little young to become? Carrie Fisher in the sequels. Yes. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like where she's presumably going to be

the connective tissue that goes from the sequels to whatever these next set of movie or movies are going to be. It's a bit odd. And that is why it's like when people probably hear like my exhaustion on the Midnight Boys,

I still have so much love for all this stuff. But it is like, oh, the corporate machinations of this. Even we were talking, I think mixtapes are a really, really good kind of like metaphor because if you think about it, Wayne was super interesting

when he's dropping dedication trouts, whatever. It's like, oh, I'm on Dapiff. I'm on live mixtapes. I'm on all this shit. And I remember when Carter 3 dropped, it was a moment, but I was like, oh, it's over.

Like, I felt it. I was just like, oh, he's in industry now. And then Drake came and then Nikki came. And I'm like, it's just a different proposition. When the clips, you know, when the clips were dropping mixtapes, you're just like, yo, Hell Houseville Fury, never come to all this shit.

It's a different proposition and when push a T signs to good music and all of a sudden. It's like every 18 months to two years he puts out an album that's really good. It just doesn't have the like breathless buzz. Yes.

And the, so for people who don't know what we're talking about, like clips, who you know from grinding, but have made like obviously dozens of classics and incredible albums since then. Clips had a point where they were like in major label purgatory and they were supposed to be releasing

the long-awaited following. up to Lord Willen, and it had been done and all this stuff, and they were in this contract label hell and started putting out mixtapes called We Got It for Cheap, Volume 1 and 2, that were basically like, we can't really get our shit out there any other way, so what we're going to do is wrap over basically the best 12 beats that are out right now, uh, they were the ones that we're obsessed with, and those two mixtapes are absolute Stone Cold classics, and I put volume 2 up against like any rap record from... That was Cliss. That was 50.

That was Wayne. It was Gucci. It's cheesy. And it's like you saw... It was a little early for me. So I come in around the tail end and I'm like... It's really hard to think of what a comic book analogy to... We got it for cheap volume to be. But it's like, I mean, I'm young enough to... I guess that would be deadful. I don't even know.

Like, I mean, I guess it would be like, what if I took this character that people don't really know about and like just imbued him with my own personality? But like, that's maybe giving Ryan Reynolds too much credit. It's just, it is... We're at the point where I'm just like, oh, the mixtapes are over now. Everybody's dropping major label albums. And they're like, all right, I got to have one for the shoddies.

I got to have one for the club. The formulaic nature of it. Because I'll ask you, do you even think in 2024, I don't know who is the Robert Downey Jr. equivalent? But would Kevin Faggie even take a chance at this point on like restarting or helping an actor who had that much baggage? I'm like, not really. I don't think the, rightly or wrongly,

without getting into that, I don't really know if the fans would let it happen, right? Because, like, the way in which Downey was perceived during his, like, time in the wilderness, like, was a lot more, like, bad boy rebel fuck up

than was this problematic or, like, did anybody get hurt in the process of, like, this dude having, you know, his drug sojourn. Yeah. And when you think about, like, some of the people, out there who would be prospects

for such a rehabilitation by Kevin Feige it's like highly unlikely that Shia LeBuff would be fucking Rie Richards. And here's the thing, I'm not saying that he should do that, but it's just like, even taking a chance on like... It's so different, yeah. On an actor who you're just like, when Downey was announced,

I was like, Robert Gron Jr., what the fuck? Yeah. But it's like, I don't feel that way about any of their announcements anymore. When the Fantastic Four announcements came out, I was just like, it was like, okay, sure. Like, it wasn't even anything to get mad, excited about. I'm like, this is very good brand management. Well, it was so strange because Andy and I would joke about fantastic forecasting rumors because

Andy gets most of his culture news through his Facebook feed. And so he just gets like comicsbook.net recommended post on like who would be like in the cast and he would send them to me as screenshots. And it was really funny because like when they actually did announce that cast, it was like more. or less like chalk. It was like, yeah, Pedro Pascal instead of Krasinski or whoever, like Adam Driver. But for the most part, like, that's, Benz Kirby had been attached to that role for a really long time.

And like Joseph Quinn has been getting like a lot of really big roles. And it was awesome that Ebbing got the thing. But like, it's like what we thought. And then you're like, oh, wait, they haven't even written or shot a frame of this movie. And in my mind, we've been talking about and this has been around for like the better part of 18, months, if not two years. I mean, even Evan getting the thing, you're just like, it used to be like, oh, they plucked Chris

Pratt out of Parks and Rec. Well, the crazy thing would have been to give Evan Reed. Yes. But now it's just like, you're worried because you see all these other actors departing, like Thunderbolts and like all this other shit. And now it's flipped where you're just like, oh, this actor is in an MCU movie. They're going to be a star. Now you're like, I hope this doesn't fuck up there.

Like, that's where we're at. And I think that's even where I'm at emotionally, just with superheroes in general, with even the James Gun Superman stuff, where I'm like, it feels like he's going to go back to that nostalgic Superman feeling. Look at how transformative comic books are. A man could fly, did it, all this stuff.

And I'm just so jaded off all of it. Well, and he's probably making a bet that culture is ready to pivot towards sincerity. Are we not there already? Well, that's actually not a bad bridge into Girard. You know what I mean? Like, yes. But I want to just say, like, everything that I get the vibe from the way that James Gunn talks about Superman is going to be probably something that I really admire the bones of.

And it's going to probably be mechanically a really well-told story. And I'm excited to see what he does with it. I don't really have, like, much of an affinity for Superman, but I'm interested. but it's interesting that he's like, yeah, like this character symbolizes something very important and sacred and those things are doing the right thing,

selflessness, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm like, I wonder if this is going to hit. Like, I'm sure it'll do really well. No,

it's probably the right gamble, but even like those Guardians movies, I'm like, I think the thing about the Guardians movies as they continued that, James Gunn is one of the most talented directors to touch those MCEU movies. But as the sincerity increased across...

It became more about, like, friendship and animal rights. And, like, Muppet Baby shit. No, like, it's like, I like those movies. But there was a level where I'm just like, ugh, I'm okay. Like, there was the first Guardians, I liked it so much. I was like, there was a little acid on that shit. There was a little, like, he still had that very much, like,

rebel thing about his filmmaking where he's like, all right, it's a talking raccoon, but we're going to make a place. Also just like nobody thinks this is going to work. Yes, right? Like no one's ever heard of these people. I remember that was like when we were podcasting about that back then, it was like, this is the biggest heat check. They're just like literally like playing roulette with Star Wars with Marvel titles.

Yes. And just being like, what about these motherfuckers? What about this raccoon? And they would just, they can be like, we'll get a billion out of anything right now. Like we can dial up a box office monster out of any combination of words if it says, if it has the Marvel flip page in the beginning.

But here's the thing. If I see, you know, Clark Kent crying over dead crypto I'm gonna be like yo come on bro I'm done I'm done with this let's like because I just I think it's happening in pop music I think it's happening in movies where it's like the therapy speak sincerity

like there's so much division in the world y'all let us believe in humanity again by selling you these big ass IP characters and I'm just like all right this be this episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something?

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Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. All right, let me, let's talk about Gerard. You always bring me on here to talk about Gerard. I'm so honored. I'm deeply fascinated with this person, even if I don't know if I love watching television about his personal life.

And it really has, it's really just down to the fact that at this point, I feel like Draccar Michael's project, and obviously if you watch Ruthaniel, which was the Emmy Award winning stand-up quote-unquote special that he did, directed by Bo Burnham, that one was, right? You know that he has been going through a time of great personal upheaval and that his comedy, so to speak, is really now become more of a confessional but also performance of his self

on stage where he directly communicates with the audience about literally whatever's been happening with him up to that hour. And in the Drag Car Michael reality show, he's honestly like looking at text messages and waiting for responses from a very significant rapper to and informing the audience of like a minute by minute of his emotional state and his love life. So he's got priors with Ruthaniel.

He's obviously very interested in the public consumption of his incredibly private moments of which their like his project seems to be like there are no private moments, right? And not only not private like, I'm always on my phone and I'm always streaming or documenting it. I have like a professional camera crew

living with me in a hotel in West Hollywood to film my grinder dates but also film like the state of my relationship with my mother, which I narrate to two of my like childhood friends and his kind of like wandering through the world as he tries to figure out who he is and who will love him and who he's going to love.

All these things are really, Interesting. Did you find the show interesting? I found the swing interesting. I don't know if I liked this first episode. And I still, I laughed a lot. But before I even get into my thoughts, I wanted to pick your brain a little bit. Okay.

Because I realized that the thing about this show that I was bumping up against is I'm like, what I enjoyed about Curb Your enthusiasm when I was a teenager growing up is like, I was probably part of the last generation that became a Seinfeld fan, not because I sought it out, but because I was at my grandparents' house

and it's like, Seinfeld's the only thing fucking on and there's a lot of it, just crushing tape. And then it's like you learn about Larry David and you get HBO and you're like, I'm just going to watch Curb Your Enthusiasm. And I'm still so young.

So I don't, I'm not, I'm learning about the lore, I'm reading about the lore, but I have a certain distance from all of the players, which helps me enjoy it, where this Car Michael reality show is very much. But you're not watching Curb and you're like,

I know all about, Super Dave playing Funkhizer or whatever. Like I'd learn about a lot of that stuff later. Like you learn about Richard Lewis after the fact, right? Okay. Where it's with this show, I'm like, oh, this is curb. But it's like these are your, like, these are people that I was writing about,

podcasting about, writing reviews about. I know way too much about Tyler the Creator. Yes. We're almost this. I think we're the same age where it's like, you make an entire first episode about Tyler the Creator curving you is just some shit that I'm not.

I'm just like, no. So that's obviously going to be the big headline takeaway from this episode. Well, I want to ask you really quick, did you, is it weird for you watching this? Because these aren't your contemporaries in the same way with like, with Curb, you're way closer to Larry David and Seinfeld and all of that stuff than I am. So you look at me and you think that's a guy who's way closer to Larry David's age than Tyler the creator's age? I think so. If we're being real. So you're just like, you're watching this.

Holy shit, that is so sobering. But yeah. But you like your connection with Curb, like did you ever? 12 years older than Gerard. And I am more than 12 years younger than Larry David. Yes, but culturally speaking. Who do you think you're closer to?

Larry David. Larry David. I think. Yeah. And that makes the equation different for you watching the show. For me, watching Carmichael, I'm like, I'm about to drop some shit off like the shit that's happening in this. We're just like, yeah, I wasn't outside like that. Like, I didn't even understand that that's what's happening. I'm like, that's what makes it hard for me.

Right. I think, so this episode is basically like an introduction to the concept of the show, which is that Gerard feels more comfortable telling the truth to the camera than he does like basically in private. So he is going to document his private life as if it was a TV show, hence the Gerard Carmichael reality show

and explore like the quote-unquote, I don't know, like objective truth of any moment which several people come through the episode both like in passing, like in like Grindr dates. And then also as like clearly like close people in his life. I mentioned the childhood friends.

An anonymous character who refuses to be seen is played pretty obviously by Bo Burnham. Yes. Bo Burtum 6-5. Didn't know that. That's why I was just like, take off the mask, dude. I don't like, I know you're Bo Burnham, bro. Like, come on. And I, you know, with him, it's like,

and I also know Bo Burnham just from hearing him talk about, like, his feelings about social media and the way that content is created and consumed now that I assume both that he does not want to be a part of this, but also desperately wants to be a part of this to comment on what the this of this is. Yes. But yes, like, obviously it would have just been hilarious if Bo Burtum was at the door when he answers it.

So it essentially documents this first episode, and I believe it's six or seven episodes. I can't remember how long it is. I've read maybe eight. Okay. So it's essentially like, Drive Car Michaels in L.A. for the Emmys after doing a bunch of promo for Ruthaniel

and then comes back to Los Angeles for the Emmys. He's doing some stand-ups gigs here and there. And the main narrative is that he has, in the weeks prior, declared his feelings of romantic interest in Tyler the Creator, who is also his really, really, really close friend. And has basically only heard back from Tyler

a real like snappy comeback six second voice message that's like you're a bitch if I remember correctly? Yeah the most Tyler the creator response and then hasn't really heard from him otherwise and like he's tried to get him to go to the Emmys with him and I think Tyler's like I'm busy that night or something

and okay I guess I'll ask you did you think that how much of this relationship that we're seeing on screen is quote-unquote four cameras. Because I think it's very purposeful that Carmichael named this show reality show. You know, like, it's not the Gerard Car Michael show.

It's not my life and my love with Gerard Car Michael. It's the reality show, which, you know, if you watch enough reality television, there are really easy and clear ways that they assemble a narrative out of however many hours of footage they get. Yeah. And I was curious whether or not you thought that the Tyler thing was like a really raw incredible moment of real life that was being captured or something that was being performed by two people who are hyper-conscious

of how their fan base thinks about them. So the reason why I was like what the show, the show is kind of going out of its way to make it seem like it's a raw and emotional moment. But probably because I have music critic brain, probably because I was like, When Tyler drops Flower Boy, which is the first album that he's starting to hint about his sexual journey, about, you know, potentially just not being a straight rapper. He's never confirmed it, but he's using different pronouns, whatever. Carr Michael was a part of that project. They have this video, everything.

I already know that. So I'm like, they've been friends for a while. That project comes out forever ago. You have Igor, you have Rothaniel, you have everything. So I'm like, the possibility that they filmed this, that this is when he's saying I had feelings for you, like just timeline-wise for me. I'm just like, I don't,

because this is supposed to be when he wins his Emmy for Othmanuel. So I'm starting to do the math. That's 22, right? Yeah, so I'm just like, I don't know if this lines up or whatever. And then it was like, as they start talking. You're like, is this the sacred timeline? Yeah, I was like, the punchlines are almost, too good at certain points.

Like when the guy, like they're having this big moment and Tyler's essentially like doing the thing. He's like, you're like a brother to me. And then the food comes in. It's amazing. It's the funniest thing.

But I'm like, that's actually too funny. Like, this is the perfect time for the food to arrive. And then at one point, like, I think Gerard goes to Tyler.

He's like, so what are you seeking? And Tyler goes, in life or on this plate. I'm like, that's just too good of a punchline. Yeah. Like,

And I am sure that that conversation did happen. I'm sure that all of this did. But as someone who's worked at music magazines, I know how controlling Tyler the Creator is, how selective he is. Like, he's only doing things that he wants to do that he believes in artistically. And I'm just like,

would Tyler the creator agree to just be on any reality show or would he agree to be on the trollish reality show that's like, hey, remember that time I revealed that I had deep feelings? for you, Tyler. We're going to recreate that for this fake reality show come through.

Like Nathan Fielder style, right? Yes. And I'm like, that's the project that Tyler would be like, absolutely. The sincere project of like, hey, I'm trying to work through what it means to be a queer man

and this and that, da, da, da, da. Tyler's like, fuck all that shit. Yeah. The minute it's just like, oh, I get to embarrass you on screen, Tyler Creator gets to curve, Gerard, and like, fart,

hell yeah, let's do it. Yeah. It felt like, I don't know if you watch Adult Swims Loiter School. I'm like, this is some loiter squad-ass odd future humor baked into, like you said, a Nathan Fielder S type box. I was thinking a lot during that scene, which is really incredible to watch. So Tyler comes in and like, Tyler, I got to say, if he's quote-unquote acting or not,

like, it's a great performance because he's almost better than Girard, like, naturalistically. Yeah, and there is almost something like really interesting where you, you could definitely see what Drod sees in Tyler, and you can see why Tyler kind of holds back a little bit, and because of what he's holding back, that makes it all the more attractive to Drod. Right. But there's something just like you said,

so perfectly timed about, like, even like the way he just destroys, like, the food that he gets. Then, like, Drodd offers him some of his food, and he's like, I don't want anything to do with anything that's happening in that bowl, which, of course, is also, like, a metaphorical rejection of Dharod anyway. But I did think that there was like a real like moment of magic when Drod's like you still

haven't answered me. Like we're talking about talking about it. But like even in talking about it, you still haven't been like, I don't like you that way or I don't know how to feel about that. He's just like. And Tyler is just like, I don't know what you want. me to say. Like, first of all,

like, and then he gets, that's when he goes into, like, you're like my brother. And like, I wouldn't ever, like,

jeopardize that. And I'm going to call you. And then, like, as he's leaving me, he's like, I'm going to call you next week. And I believe him. But while I was watching that scene,

it was reminding me of like, early real world seasons, you know, where that was a generation of people that did not know what it was like to be on camera and did not know what it was going to be like when they were broadcasts out to the world. And there is a,

a real lack of self-consciousness, both in terms of their personality being projected, like how they're behaving themselves, but also how they look. They're just like, hey, it's the morning. I didn't put my makeup on yet.

You know what I mean? Like, this is like how I'm chilling out, like, at this house. And over the years, if you watch real world, but if you watch really any long run reality show or any reality show that's post a certain period,

people are going on those reality shows knowing full well, they're signing up for it. In fact, they're more thinking about what the benefits are going to be of going on those reality shows

after the fact. Like, I didn't think Top Chef is like that sometimes where it's like, winning Top Chef seems real fucking hard, a little bit random, and I don't even know

if it's that lucrative, but what happens to your career if you've won Top Chef is like you're kind of like made. Oh, I can get a little social media agent. I can get a couple of deals. But your restaurants will always have like the kind of like, when I go to cities that I've never been to before

and I hear about like, so-and-so from Top Chef as a restaurant on here. I'm like, I'll go check that out. I mean, is it that what we do for a living, even podcasting? It's like, we were both writers before this. And it was like, when I was a writer, I had like people who enjoyed my writing, but it wasn't like,

hey, yo, Charles, like, let's talk. Well, your podcast, it's like, oh, this is a different thing where it's just like, oh, now people like want to talk to me about podcasting in a way. It's like, if I wrote the same thing down, right, and just published it, I don't get a fuck about that. And I think the genius

of this is like, Gerard knows Tyler and it's like odd future for like the people who don't know it's like odd future comes out at a time when it's like

they are very in your face they have very misogynistic homophobic lyrics but the grand irony is like the biggest artists that come out of that collective all end up being and they're basically edge lords

they were doing like a very like post Eminem yes you know type thing everybody of our generation is supposed to be sensitive and like you know, completely like speaking the language of like

acceptance and we're going to make jokes about it. And it's like with Frank Ocean, Frank Ocean was very much like, oh, like not only am I gay, but a lot of my music is going to be interrogating this. And you had, you know, artists like Sid, their DJ who had turned into the internet, all this stuff.

But with Tyler, I was in rooms before where like people were just like, oh, Tyler, Tyler, well, he's gay or he's bisexual. And we should do a certain. And I'm like, no, no, no. no, no, no. Tyler's actually never said any of that. Yeah. He's the most withholding. And that's what, like, is the genius of that scene where it's like,

even when Tyler is making music about, like, his love for a woman or his love potentially for a man or this or that, there's a level of remove where he's never going to give you the thing you want. He's never going to give you the New Yorker profile. That's like, here's who I am, someone's following me, blah, blah, blah. there's always that level of ha ha ha fuck you prankster shit about it. When he walks into the hotel room

he's like, I've invited orgies that had less people than this or like I've had orgies that had less people who look like the size of the camera crew there. I guess my point about the real world stuff was that even if it's a sincere moment I feel like Tyler androd know how to be on camera. Yes.

And I think that there is still like a part of me that expects people to be like, what the fuck is going on? Why are all these cameras here? Maybe it's just a time in the world where that is no longer a phenomenon. It's just to have cameras constantly pointed at you. And maybe these guys, Android specifically,

has created a reality in which this isn't like, I'm taking a break from my lucrative stand-up career to do like a little bit of a behind-the-scenes thing about who I really am. The who I really am behind-the-scenes stuff has way subsumed his comedy career to the extent that I don't even know

if you would really call him a comedian anymore. I mean, he does stand up, but it's like that. It's like what we see on the show. Like when you usually, if you watch comedians doing their podcasts on YouTube or whatever, most of it is about,

like, there are some funny stories and stuff like that, but a lot of it is about the mechanics of comedy, a lot of it is about the business of doing comedy or just reacting to shit on the internet. And then when you watch their stand-up, you're like, this is pretty basic stand-up. Like, this is pretty, like,

the way I remember stand-up from, like, 80s and 90s. Like, you know, when you'd first see an HBO special, they're going out there and be, like, I'm wearing a black shirt and black pants, and my wife is crazy, you know? And it's like, that still is comedy

for, like, 95% of people out there. And so it's fascinating to see Drod have a career where the whole project is self. It's not like this is a side hustle or a left turn from anything. Like, the left turn is the map. now. You know what I mean?

Can I say the most Andy thing ever? Sure. I might be completely misremembering this. My brain is now Swiss cheese off the LA weed. But it's like fucking Mark Marin and I think Gerard went on Mark Marin. Maybe around the time of Ruth Daniel. Maybe. Yeah.

I might be misremembering it. But I almost remember them even kind of getting into a little bit of like it wasn't heated but a back and forth of like the structure of stand up because Mark Marin obviously comes from one. Mark Barron still goes to like comedy clubs and like. does bits about his cats. Yes. He's still doing, like,

like he does like confessional, political, whatever comedy, but then he still will get up there and be like, the thing about getting rid of your old guitars is this, you know,

like, like he just does jokes. And, and Gerard, like a lot of his comedy is like, oh, I'm worried about what my mom's going to say, you know,

with this text. And he'll just like pull out the phone and read it. And there is a level where I think it worked so well in Ruthaniel for me because, that is such a structurally tight set.

And conceptually cohesive. It's cohesive in the way it's shot and all of these things where you're like, okay, this is a different version of what I grew up on with stand-up, but I like it. Where it's with the reality show, I'm like, it's almost like one knob too cute. Yeah.

Where it's almost one knob where it's like, it's actually interesting when Jerome, is talking about pining for men that I have no conception of, the minute that you reveal it's out of the creator, I'm just fundamentally less interested because now it's like the complex headline industrial complex where it's just like, oh. Like complex.com? Complex.com where it's like that type of headline where it's like,

I already brought a future in Drake where it's like the first night that record drops, it's like, oh my God, look at what Kendrick said about Drake and Jay Cole. And then when Girard's thing comes out, it's like, oh, my God, look what Gerard and Tyler the creator I'm up to. And I'm just like, all right, cool. Like, it's just I'm uninterested in that. Yes. That's like every single, like video you come across where it's just like, it's just some guy at a junket whose job is to get somebody to say something about being cast in a Star Wars movie or Marvel movie, whether they would do it?

If they were, you know, if they're having been cast, would you do it? Kristen Stewart is being asked, would you be in an MCU movie? And now I have to see on my Twitter. We're like, Chris and Stewart only says you'll do MCU of Greta Gertowitz involved. And I'm just like, this isn't even a news story. This is like a quip that someone's like, all right, man, the fucking clicks are about to come in. And it's, I also think what this show is illuminating to me, and I felt this way for a while, is that comedy in general for, I think honestly, like the last 10 years, if not,

longer has been obsessed, whether it's like on the more liberal side, the right side of, what can we say, what is the truth, what is reality? Because a lot of comedians, what they're actually fighting against is what is the role of a comedian when a 15-year-old with a TikTok account is just as funny as me and had to put in 1% of the work? It's just, it's flattened it. So it's like, Nathan Fielder, the thing of. about the rehearsal that was genius

is it's like, all right, this guy is taking the autour jump? Yes. Where it's like, oh, Nathan for you, it's funny, but now this is a guy who's working with the Saffty brothers after it. Donald Glover is a similar person where it's like Donald Glover was writing

fucking Weirwolf Bar Mitzvah, his child scampina or whatever. Atlanta is a project of like, what is reality? What is the music industry? Sure. Who am I within it? Like, we're always looking,

now we're looking for if you're that type of community. to make the jump. Right. And so are we waiting for Rethaniel's? Are we waiting for Giraud's jump? I think so. I think even when I was watching this first episode, I'm like,

is this just going to be this? Or is something going to happen in episode 6, 7, or throughout this? That goes like, or are you just going to hang out with your parents and keep trying to work through this? Which is very, like, worthwhile, a really worthwhile pursuit. but is a very interesting proposition for being a worthwhile TV show. I mean, it's also the thing where it's like

what I want from Giraud's career, a comedian I have a lot of love for, might not be what he wants. And I mean, like, like I said, we're always, I think because it's so hard, we're talking about comedians now that broke 15 years ago at this point sometimes, where it's like,

because there's less and less comedians, we're always waiting for like, oh, no, what's your serious thing? What's your, like, Sandler with PTA? What's your uncut gems? What's that thing where I'm like, oh, no, you're larger than life now. And I think for Carmichael, I thought after Nathaniel, I'm like, oh, he's going to write a movie. He's going to direct. He's going to do this or that.

And he's like, oh, no, I'm making a reality show for HBO. And just this is my mind is broken. We're talking about the normy conversation. I'm like, oh, no, it just can't be. But I wonder whether or not he is, he does view. this as like a more significant project than like because if gerard kromichael just wanted to constantly narrate his life he could do it on a podcast you know what i mean yes and like i'll you know like and i would probably check it out you know but like most comedians have

pods that update two to three times a week where they're just kind of like going through what's going on with their lives and and a lot of those shows are really successful and geron obviously wants to imbue his stuff with a degree of filmmaking and a degree of like artistic kind of contextualization and, uh, and accent and stuff like that. Because I, the other, you know, you're talking a lot about the comedy part. The reality part is also interesting too, because I find myself way more kind of like fascinated by watching like Instagram or TikTok videos of dudes who are like

truck driver brokers making deals with loading docks for their truckers in like 30 second videos where they're like making faces at the camera as some dude is like, yeah, I can't go any higher than 2,800 brother. And he's just like, you're still really firm on that. And like that to me is like an almost like weird awesome slice of life reality. Then watching this kind of like, is this fake? Is this real? Is HBO really putting this out?

if there's no like catharsis or resolution at the end. Like what is this, what is this project? And I think one of the interesting things to watch in this show is the way in which Gerard obviously regards himself. Yes. And regards himself as honestly like a flowering being. You know, like the way he dresses like himself and the way his stylist dress himself as he's like discovered this new part of himself and can finally like kind of be like,

this is how I want to look. This is how I want to look at an award show. or whatever, I want to wear these slippers and is like feeling his body for the first time in a really long time. That actually is pretty fascinating to me that he's like, he's willing to do that and go through that on camera.

It's almost more interesting to me than some of the family stuff at this point, I guess. So I think a lot, and this is the Thorneous part. Because if you go back and watch eight, like this dude has really grown a lot since eight, you know? Yes, but it's, and I see the suspect

like in the black community almost and you see it kind of with his friends when he's talking and this is actually the thing that while I'm not that interested in it I get why people might be bumping up against this where it's like Gerard Gerard is trying to navigate

obviously coming out the homophobia from his family but so much of his comedy now has cast his family in a certain life and you're like is this a project that is giving his family a seat at the table so they can be humanized.

Well, I think that the show in the future episodes probably will at least give them the opportunity. Which once again, I think is cool. But also, like, when I was watching Ruth Daniel, I'm like, I don't necessarily know if I need to see Trad's mom or the dad. Like, there was something about, I'm just like, this is one man's truth. And it's so interesting. because it's not cutting back and forth to conversations or whatever.

I'm seeing the world or I'm trying to through Carmichael's eyes. And the minute you make the proposition, well, we're going to do the reality show version. So you're going to actually see my parents, maybe say some homophobic things, say some things that are like very hurtful, whatever. I'm just like, artistically, that's far less interesting to me. It's because to your point...

I'd almost rather watch the Grindr dates. the glider dates was like it was like there were points where I was like oh this is interesting that Gerard is famous enough he can't put his face on it right but when these guys show up they're like they don't know who he is they also don't care that there's camera crews there like this is the world we live in where they're like oh weird you're making this for HBO well let's hang out you know what I mean you told me to come meet you at like wherever he's staying in whatever nice hotel he's in probably sounds like a cool date you go over there and you hang it out for a while and it's like were these real men do you think these are actual underdates.

That's what I was trying to pick up. Because some of them I was like, yes, some of them I was just like, it feels like you would have had to sign a waiver. I don't know. The dude who stuck, the guy who's like there the next day when he's getting ready

for the Emmys seems like pretty, like that seems like a real person to me. I don't know. I guess I hadn't really interrogated the part, like, how real this stuff was outside of the Boe performance art piece and the,

the Tyler, like, is this literally like, You guys texted. He curved you. And then now he's, this is the first time you're talking to him. Like that hadn't really occurred to me that the grinder dates might be like casted.

And it's like here. And maybe that's just broken podcaster brain. But there just was a little bit of what is this show? Are you doing the curb your enthusiasm version of the show? Are you doing the rehearsal version of this show? Like what are? Does it have to be one of those two things for you to be like a quote unquote success? Does it have to be like something?

something that breaks whatever the mold is of what he's doing. Because it seems like he is very sincere about like the project is to see if I can find the truth about what is going on inside of me and with the people I love. I mean, I'm going to be honest. It doesn't have to be curb or the rehearsal, but I am very, very, just as a critic, kind of done with the whole celebrity comedian musicians are in this too, where it's like, yeah, what's the truth, man? What's authenticity?

We're constantly being documented. Like, I'm going to just, I'll be honest. Like, art about the social media age is so uninteresting to me. Art about reality TV or, like, phones and the internet. I'm so done with it. I'm just like, guys, we lost the more. Most of our great filmmakers don't make contemporary films. Yes, because I'm just like, I don't want to see PTAs, like, this is my feelings on Instagram.

I'm like, I don't care. I don't. I just. am I being a hater? I don't know how we're going to get around it. I think that there are shows and movies that effectively mix in. There will be no show or movie that will affect truthfully document how much we use text messaging because it's so uncimatic. But it is honestly, like, I see it around me, like, probably like, is it 60% of the way people communicate in the world right now?

Like, it's not even close to being accurately represented in shows. Especially when you watch shows about teenagers and it's like, you're watching somebody and they're just like on their phone briefly before they go on like their bike ride or whatever. It's like, nah, man. Like nobody is not looking at their phone right now. I mean, but that's the funny thing even with, and it makes art difficult.

It's like being single now. I'm just like, oh, I'm getting to the point where it's like so much of my communication is like coming through my phone. And I was just like, dog, why am I having this conversation via text message or via DM? Like, this is the worst way to do it. And I'm just like, I bring that up because, like, in movies, I'm like, this conversation has to happen in person. Yes.

You know, I'm not revealing all of this shit. Right. In a movie. And then sometimes it's actually, like, easier to talk about yourself or talk about complicated topics in text that it is in person. Yeah, because it's so, like, it's like, all right, I can rewrite this sentence. I'm not going to read it. And that is sometimes, even when you talk to people now, like, sometimes I've been going

back in my mind where I'm like, oh, the way. that I'm even communicating with the world now is so much different because we have learned how to be vulnerable in a very specific way. And that's why I think comedians especially are so interested in this age. Because like the things that comedians are actually giving you isn't necessarily the humor or laughter. It's the vulnerability. Sure.

And it's just like how do you be a vulnerable artist when we're just like, nah, I'm vulnerable through a brick phone? Yeah, and I'm vulnerable all the time. I'm vulnerable. Nobody's hiding how they're feeling anymore. It's like, you'll be following somebody on Twitter or Instagram or TikTok. You're like, damn, Ma, you're going through it. Like, you just, and it's like, they're not even saying it, but you're just like, you've been posted a lot.

You know, some of your friends, you're just like, all right, I got to text him. He's crashing out. Right. In a way that it's like, when your friends used to crash out or used to fuck up, you're like, I wouldn't know unless we're like, all going to the bar and like two drinks. And he's like, all right, man. I'm dead, yeah. Yeah, like, I'm dead inside. And now I'm like, it's hard because I'm like, that's what I think the Carmichael reality show is trying to get at.

Where it's like the truth that I think Gerard is trying to present is how do I be a C-List celebrity that has come out and make comedy about it? I don't think he's trying to make comedy about anything here. You don't think he's trying to make, the Tyler, the creator thing is one of the funniest things I've, I've seen all year. It's also like, but it's pretty, it's only because it's Tyler. Gerard is not going, I mean,

Drod is like very raw and deeply like vulnerable and so lovable in that scene. But I saw it as the peak of cute. Like I actually saw that punchline and set up as I'm just like, this is a great writer's room idea. Maybe you're right. Like this is because it's like, it works on me like at my age right now because I'm just like, who is the only rapper?

and celebrity who could make this scene not as corny as it would feel. And I'm like, oh, Tyler the Creator, because the minute he walks in there, not only is he charming. Right. But he's like, to your point, I'm like, Tyler Creator's been on camera since he was like 17, 18 years old. He doesn't know anything different. He doesn't, he like, like, I think Tyler after I saw, what you might call it, what's the, Carmichael was in poor things. Yeah. You know, love Carmichael.

Acting needs a little work. versus Tyler. I'm like, you know, Tyler's been famous for so long. He walked in there. It's so naturalistic. I was like,

yeah, it's funny. He commands the room with his facial expressions. It's really, it's, he has a ton of presence. And it was weird

because I'm like, I saw Ruthaniel and I was just like, oh, like, Gerard's going to run circles around. I was like, oh, no, after leaving that,

I'm just like, I kind of want the fucking Tyler creator reality show now. I know. I was like when he was waiting for Tyler's just got to get the Ruthaniel extended universe.

You know what I mean? Get Bo Burnham in his ski mask. Tyler going around, eating people's dinner. So you didn't like this? No, no. I thought it was really interesting. We are in the Emmy push of like there's 12 shows out right now.

There's just so much stuff on my plate. Both like person, like, because I'm like, oh, I want to watch this or versus like I feel compelled to like check this out or watch it. That I feel like I got it. I hate to sound like a dick about it. it. I feel like I got it and I don't know if I'm going to continue to watch it. Is it, is it kind of what happened with the curse where it's like, I was watching the curse

and there was a point where I'm just like, I got it. Well, the curse is different because the curse is like, I knew in my bones and then just through the way people were writing about it. Like, something is going to happen. Oh, I knew something was going to happen. But I was just like, you know, I can check it out in a month or so. And then the night I was just like, I didn't see anything. And I'm like, all right, I'm fucking crushing tape. Yeah. Where it's like, I don't know what. I think this show is going to be not an appointment viewing. It's going to be like, all right, I'm going to crush like three, four episodes just in case.

After the fact. Something happens on that sixth or seventh week. And it's like, I feel, for we depart, give me the hard sell on a couple of shows. Okay. Because I'm at the point where it's like I got X-Men 97, Invincible, a bunch of other Marvel superhero shit coming out. But I'm keeping up with Shogun. You know what I'm saying? Can I give you one that I think you would actually,

if you get like a weekend to yourself and you're just like, I got nothing else on the docket right now. And we're in this really weird zone where like shows, especially shows in their second, third season, it's like really easy to put them in the box of like the people who like that show, like that show. We don't have to cover it really in a certain way because it's not going to win any new fans

because a lot of people are like, I don't have time to watch 12 hours of television to get up to where I need to be to start the new season. season or whatever. Tokyo Vice. Now, Tokyo Vice, I don't know if you watch any of it the first season. It was a little, like, I think it was a little uneven because there's the Michael Man

directed pilot. Then it takes a little while to get its sea legs as it's going, but it gets going and it's actually like really, really good. This second season, which was like two years after the last one came out, there's a couple of shows like that, like outer range is another one. Where it's like, there's been because of COVID and the strikes, like such long delays of getting

to the screens. But Tokyo Vice Season 2 is fucking incredible. And if you just are like in the Japan zone and are like, I'm loving this, like I recommend checking out. I've seen rumblings that season two is actually correct.

I don't think you could turn on season two episode one and watch the like previously on Tokyo Vice and get it. So there is, there's also just some incredible Yakuza stuff in the first season. All right, I'll do Tokyo advice because you won me over.

Shout out Justin Sales. I was supposed to finish the gentleman. I only got halfway through because Justin Sales has been infected with the fantasy disease where he's constantly hitting me up. He's like, yo, you want to go to this screening? Yeah. And I was just reading my text where he's like, yo, you want to go see the samurai? But I missed right.

I was like, yo, you want to go see the last samurai? I was like, oh, it's a Sunday. Hell yeah. I show up. And it's like, no, this is like the French 1967. Seven. Oh, La Samurai. La Samurai.

Oh, it's incredible. And I saw, and I was just like... Yeah, Melville's one of my favorite directors, man. I walk into the Egyptian. And it's like, oh, no, this is like American Cinemattec. This is like the premiere of the 4K restoration. Yeah. And I've, like, heard of this movie before.

But I was like expecting Tom Cruise and I sit down. And I was just like, wait, am I watching one of the fucking best films ever made? I was like, I was not in the mind-sec because I was like, it's my first time. the Egyptian. Yeah. And I was like, dog, I got to get back home. I got to finish the gentleman. And after I got to that, I'm like,

I'm going to watch the gentleman. I was just like, bro, man. I was so blown away. I was not expecting it. So, but I had finished four episodes of the gentleman I just want to say. That's more of what we need. It's entertaining as hell. It's so, like, I know we can complain about the Netflix of it all,

but it's like you want to know the feeling it gave me. People are embarrassed of the shows that they used to watch when they were kids. I remember when Weeds was out, and the feeling of that show where it was just like, oh, something is happening in every episode, and there's just like something happens, there's a reversal, there's a new problem, there's a new problem. And it was just like the craziest shit,

and by the end of those seasons, I was like, this is the worst show ever, but like I'm still tapped in. Yeah. And the gentleman gives me that showtime feeling of, there's constantly like a new person. But there's like a little bit of like a Netflix speed to it, Like it feels like they are, even though each, the episodes are long,

and even though like the Netflix just is like, here, you're already 10 hours behind. You're like, here's the season. Those episodes, like, you can throw on a gentleman and just be like, that was a very entertaining 63 minutes or whatever and just be like, you don't feel like you were like, I can't believe they're just dragging this out more and more and more. I'm sucked in the more I watch it where it's like, it does the good Netflix thing where I'm like, oh, I've watched 60 minutes of this, but it does not feel like it. Yeah.

And there's all, like, if I'm like checking my phone and then I look back up, something dope has happened. And I'm like, oh shit, I'm locked back in now. Yeah, where it's like a lot of show. Like, I can't do that with Shogun. When I, like, I'm like, all right. No, the Shogun has actually cracked something in the modern television viewer where I feel like, I wonder whether there has been a show that people are more locked in on in like the last

five years. Like, I can't, obviously because of the language, but also because of the detail, people are like, I watch every single frame of showgun, like, with fucking, like, put me inside of a deprivation take. I cannot be distracted. Like, it's, like, it's dinner time. Like, I don't remember a show where it's like, usually, you know, I'll be eating dinner. I'm on, like, YouTube.

Or it's like, I'll be watching something on Netflix and be like, yo, let me scroll through Twitter, whatever. It's like, no, like, I'm like, all right, for this hour, I'm just watching this like, it's a fucking movie. Yeah. And it's like, once again, because the slate has kind of been cleared by the MCU, the Star Wars of it, it's like I'm falling back in love with the rhythms of TV of having a gentleman type shit where I'm just like, oh, I'm about to go to bed.

But you just can't go see a fucking one of the like 100 greatest movies of all time on the side because then you just, everything else gets blown out of water. Like if you go see La Samurai and then you come back and you're like, well, should I check out Manhunt on Apple? Like, I like Manhunt or whatever. But it's just like, it's not fair any more than it was fair to be like, I'm watching, you know, like any show from the 2000s. Like, I think that there was a moment where it felt like Mad Men and Breaking Bad and some of those, like, Sopranos and some of those shows were like punching at the weight of like truly great cinema in terms of like what it made you think about how it made you feel, even sometimes how it looked. But like it is very hard still to go have like a really perfect two hour experience with a movie.

and then come back and be like, I'm on hour four of 11 of the gentleman. I mean, but here's also the thing. You don't have to deal with this as much. J.S., my Highland homie, he's always inviting me out to screens. Go check out the wedding scammer. Anyway, quite literally he'll be like,

yo, you want to go watch this like 4K restoration of this, like, legendary movie? And I'm like, dog, I was just trapped in a theater for two hours watching Godzilla versus Kong. Yeah, or the X-Men 97. It's like after that my brain is such mush. Yeah. It's like, all right, I'm a lock in on YouTube and just watch like a sushi master.

Yeah. Just he's day of prep. Like that's the only thing my mind will take in because almost like watching Lesbara, I was like, to your point, it fundamentally changed my brain chemistry in a way where I'm like, I can't go back home and watch almost anything that's on my docket for work. Yes. Yeah. Because it's going to fuck up my vibe. Clear the mechanism.

And I don't know how like Sean does it. Like sometimes like Sean, like, I watched all these movies and I'm like, how did you go and watch the MCU after that? You know? Oh, man. We should wrap it up there. I really, really appreciate you coming down. This was an awesome conversation.

Charles, you can hear on the ringerverse and all over the ringer podcast network. Midnight Boys comes out like kind of tied to whatever the episode is. Most Wednesdays, now we're on Thursdays because of your like X-Men 97, Invincible, season finale. Guys, tap in Monkey Man. We're doing a Monkey Man. A monkey man I'm really excited for it. I got Monkey Man coming up.

I can't wait to see First Omen. Are you a horror fan? No, I'm, wouldn't I tell you, like, I am like, like, I can't do fucking horror, bro. I'm not even to describe some of the stuff I've seen then. Thank you so much to Kaia McMullen for producing us today. And we will be back on Thursday. Expect Shogun, expect Top Chef,

and then probably a little bit of previewing of Ripley on Netflix and Sugar on Apple TV. My guy Colin Farrell's back.