The Watch - X-Men Casting Rumors and ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day.’ Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 Finale.

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the X-Men casting rumors and why they’re excited for the upcoming reboot film (7:05). Then they share their thoughts on ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ (19:09). Later, they discuss the ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 finale (44:53). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca.

Wayfair, every style, every home. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com, and joining me in the studio, he's alive. It's Andy Greenwald.

Who are you talking to? Who is alive? In the show House of the Dragon? Are you going to spoil something? For what? How's the Dragon at the top? How are we spoiling it? Well, if you said who you were talking about.

Well, I assume people listening to the Watch on a Monday have watched House of the Dragon on a Sunday. Let's hope so. Yeah. Look, I'm just excited to see you. I'm excited to see you. You were on vacation, man. I hope it was restful.

Not really. Yeah. We had a lot of forest fires. A lot of god parenting. But it was good. you know yeah uh it's good to see you though some housekeeping obviously watch at spotify dot com for emails the watchpot underscore to instagram for reels for viral content walkman versus strokes takes um thank you kai how does it feel going over the middle catching those hospital balls

you know what it gave me a new appreciation for some of your work thank you that was like some real like no wonder julian edelman is a little bit fucked up you know like it's it's it's It's kind of tough out there, you know? Yeah, I mean, you made the catch, but at what cost. But I also stand by what I said. Uh-huh. It is what it is, you know? And if you don't like it, maybe this isn't the podcast for you, you know?

I would just say that you chose an interesting target, though, because Julian Casablanca writes songs about his critics now. I heard that. So you may be immortalized. Like I said, I don't think I'm going to rise to that level for him, but that's. You are listened to in the halls of power in this nation. We'll see. We'll see.

For now. Like in Mitch McConnell's coffin. he's like I gotta hold on to hear what Greenwald said about the hot team finale well he's heard a lot of Spider-Man takes last week but not ours a great great fucking image of

it was a dooheeler it was like Mitch McConnell was working from home and then it was just the view was like rate my work from home set up and it was in common Stark

are we doing that okay yeah we're doing it you're back from vacation unfettered so that's housekeeping for how you can get in touch with You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer TV, Ringar-TV YouTube channel that we share with the Prestige TV podcast.

And you can also watch us on Spotify or hope you'll listen to us or you can listen to us on a variety of podcast networks or platforms. And furthermore, I think we should just say out front today, it's Hot D and BND. We're doing House of the Dragon finale, a little bit of delayed Spider-Man reaction. And also like some state of Marvel stuff, which I know we've hit a lot. recently. But it's out there. Chill out.

But it's D23 on Friday. And Andy and I like the X-Men and we're just going to talk about it. How are you celebrating D-23 on Friday? I think I might go see the end of Oak Street, which is not a Disney property. The last thing is that people will be curious to know our thoughts on the episodes of Furious that have aired since we last discussed it. And my thoughts, at least, on the first couple of episodes of Lioness Season 3. although I know that you are a dabbler. You're sort of a lion dabbler,

not a lion tamer, but you like to get, like, just stick a foot in the cage. I am really, I am really touched by something that we should talk about, that you carried with you in your heart, this idea that I had been keeping up

with lioness out of my devotion to you in your worldview. I thought it might be just out of your devotion to staying up on the news. I thought that was so sweet when you faltered when you heard that I hadn't been. So now I feel,

that worked on me. So now I feel like I should re-engage. Also, I did see a comment from a listener that this whole time they thought we were saying Linus and that it was some sort of like dark-tinged Peanuts reboot. Yeah. Which I'm there for. Somewhere, someone has taken that meeting. For sure. Like, what if Pigpen was the grime that clung to him was actually the grime of society? Right. Or Pigpen, yeah, Pigpen is taxi driver. Yeah. So Furious and Linus on Thursday, today, Furious is so good, by the way. I can't wait to keep talking about it. I just want to...

I'm caught up. You are bursting at the scene to talk about Furious. I'm so impressed by that show in ways that I think might be... I don't know, I'm eager to try and articulate. But I think it's really, really special.

Good. Lioness is on Paramount Plus. This is a necessary segue. Sure. And so is the agency, which we talked about extensively Season 2, the American adaptation of LeBiro.

Its future has been largely, kind of undecided, you know, usually something like that, a show of that expense to make and of the cast of that quality, you'd expect kind of like an immediate decision

after the season. Perhaps Paramount was waiting to see what kind of numbers were coming in in terms of people catching up at the season. But after a couple of weeks of us being like no news is bad news, there are some rumblings, both ones that we've heard,

and also ones that showed up in Leslie Goldberg's Ankleer newsletter. And they've since been aggregated. And when I went back to Leslie Goldberg's newsletter, I was like, I wonder how people are making this deduction. She basically did a huge survey of everything that Cindy Holland, who runs Paramount TV now, has in development. And what she's got kind of coming back and what, and in the returning shows category,

she did include the agency season three. Yes. And that was aggregated as confirmation of renewal. Right. That is not the case. That is not the case. But we will monitor the situation. I would say, based on rumblings, that I think that there is,

we are not alone in hoping that the show is renewed for a third season. But I do think that there are the kind of negotiations that we usually aren't privy to and the kind of negotiations that we actually would be kind of opaque to us regarding money and et cetera are happening right now. I would just have to imagine that FastBender has like a window. That's the other thing. That's a real, as do the Butterworths, because they're making many other television shows. Yeah, they're making Laird. They're making Mobland. Season 2 is about to air. They're still supposed to make season three with Hardy coming back.

And it's not just the Fast Bender as a window in a schedule. It's that all actors on returning shows have holds. And, you know, usually, and sometimes they even have, like, pay or play things in terms of, like, they get paid if a decision isn't made by a certain point anyway. So I would say that compared to when we talked about it, you know, and really enjoying the season, like a couple of, weeks ago. I would say I'm slightly more optimistic that we'll see more of it, but I don't feel comfortable saying that it's, I mean, obviously there's no news, but I don't feel like it's a sure thing. And we don't even know who, I would say there's as good a chance that it would be on another service than it would be on Paramount. X-Men casting. That was the other thing I wanted to talk to you about, because we're going to talk about Spider-Man. This is, I know that you and I

give the MCU a lot of grief, and we have talked a lot over the course of, like, the, run of our show about comic book film fandom which I honestly count myself as a part of

do you? Yeah kind of a blue dog in that in that coalition but it's a big tent yeah

I have to admit that the X-Men stuff coming out of Spider-Man is actually like awakening something inside of me a little bit

where I am. I'm legitimately excited. Tell me why. Well, because of the way that I think I enjoyed Sadie Sink in Spider-Man a lot, spoiler alert,

but furthermore, like, I just like the people who are working on it as far as like the choices that they're making. Like Sunny and Jake Shrier, yeah. So.

I don't like, I mean, I like them personally, but like I don't know them personally that well. I just, all I'm saying is that like it's a cool choice.

Yeah. And so far they've cast Kit Conner as Cyclops Kit Conner who I saw in an Alex Garland movie Warfare But I'm not super familiar With other eyes It's Hard Stopper, right?

He was to start one of the stars of Heart Stopper. What was that? It's a Netflix long-running Netflix romantic show based on the best-selling graphic novel series. I feel like when we talk about long-running YAA Netflix shows like Chris Hansen's going to walk in.

You know how this looks, right? Can we talk about that trailer? That is so sick. I was wondering if you were like, there's no way I'm going to watch that. I have rarely been as turned on by a trailer as Tony Revely was. You know how this looks. I saw that trailer and I felt alive. It looks so good.

Yeah. And he looks, he's just blacking out right now. And I thought that was thrilling. And also instant memes. So it's, he's, he may need to take himself out of things soon. Yeah. Because between beggars and that, it's like that's all you see

is his face. And now people are going back and grabbing like this funny interview he did in 2013 he's just he's patting some run shit right now. Also like he is now, did you see the clip of him? Like he's critiquing his own performance in Twilight being like how he sat down at a table in one

scene and like did it with his fingers because he thought that was an elegant vampire way to sit. He's just like he's having a great time. Kit Connor Cyclops. Sadie sync is Gene Gray. Samara weaving as Emma Frost. Now, these are, nothing is official official.

Right. These have been reported as opposed to aggregated as rumors. Then there are rumors. Yes. That three actors testing for Professor X.

Wait, there's one, there's two others that are strongly rumored to have been official. I bet I'm going to get to them. Do you want me to keep reading? No,

when you skip Professor X and come back to it and do the other ones. Adam Driver is Sebastian Shaw. I want you skip that one. Indian Averetti is Mystique. No, skip that one. Did you tell me?

Charles Mel. Melton as Beast and Kaylee Spaney as rogue. Okay. Only because those have been at the, those have been repeated for a very long time. Charles Melton was on a beast list for a while and then, you know how this looks, right? To catch a beast.

And, and then both of them obviously started. Chris Hanson walking in, the guy's just solving math problems. You're making it sound better. No, I mean, what if, like, Charles Xavier, an adult is like, must recruit special children for my school and Nansen comes in. There's a lot of opportunity for overlap here. Sonny, who

show ran beef and Melton and Spain who were the co-stars of the season. There's a lot of wind horse finger tea leaves there that make a lot of sense. Then there is the more that, so that those are, I would feel confident about all of that. And now we're into the realm of like, oh,

you're serious about that? Yes. Kevin Feigey has been publicly saying that he's been trying to get Adam Driver to join the MCU for years and he keeps rejecting them, the rumor is that he would play Sebastian Shaw. Yes. Who is... The Black King?

And I would know him from... This is also going to be my favorite year plus of content where they'll be like, oh, the 12, huh? A storyline in which even Iceman is considered one of the most powerful mutants ever to live. I guess. Can you explain it to me, dork? No.

I was setting you up to help our listeners understand the direction this is going. Some of you may remember Sebastian Shaw from Kevin Bacon's iconic performance in the role in, what was that, first class? Yes. Separate and apart from Driver, it is a cool character to be considering for a reboot because it does sound like they are avoiding, at least in the near term, redoing Wolverine and redoing Magneto, neither which are obviously important parts of the mythos, but not essential.

And they are doing Emma Frost, the White Queen, who started as a villain, partnered with Sebastian Shaw, the Black King. They are the evil mutant overlords of like kind of a freaky Soho House. Inferno? What's that called? Hellfire club? I mean, again, I'm not a member, but like Soho House, I imagine, as similar vibes. And then in Grant Morrison's run, 25 years ago, Emma Frost became sort of a anti-hero and then full, like, really important part of the team. But the idea of, like, it's more classic figy to me of, like, this is a really strong character that's been on the bench and on the back burner and we can use better for the story we want to tell if it's going to be. be Sebastian Shaw. Certainly better than casting Adam Driver as like Mr. Sinister or something

ridiculous like that. The Wolverine part was interesting. I did not know that they were holding off on casting that or holding off on the character arriving just yet. That's interesting, especially because I would imagine Jackman is going to make several appearances in the upcoming Avengers films. Now, I have my own thoughts on that. Save them for your substack. I don't think that the Fox X-Men are going to be in that movie very long. I think this is one of your strongest and most accurate takes. I think the first 15 minutes have been put in the trailer, honestly. That's a good way of looking at it.

But if you get Jackman jacked, well, he'll be in more than that. You've got to have go snick, sneak, sneak a couple times, right? Yeah, but also, don't you think it's going to be like, oh, no, first of all, please can you do that again just for social? I think there's going to be like, oh, the incursion of the multiverses has claimed James Marsden and also Kelsey Grammer. somehow Hugh...

Not President Wildcat again! Somehow, Hugh Jackman has returned. I don't think that's going to be an issue. Okay. But as you know, as a superfan, canonically, Wolverine was not an original member of the X-Men. Actually, you know, made his first appearance in a Hulk comic. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I don't really need to see his whole, like, a super-soldier Canadian, like, skeletal replacement thing. The weapon X storyline? line? I think I got that.

You're good on that. But it'll be cool when they finally do cast Robert Pattinson as Wolverine. That'll be awesome. You'll be very happy. There's other rumors, I think, based on some like, like the deep dork web where they're like, well, Daphne Keene will be a part of this cast as X-23. I'm like, okay, you've lost me.

Even me. Okay? And you think it's cool not to have Magneto? I think, I mean, I... We've got to play the long game. Let's do the Professor X casting thing because then I think my answer to it's cool not to have blank is actually my answer

to why I think this 80 sync reveal and gave me a lot of confidence in this movie. So let's put a pin in that. So the Professor X rumors circle now around Bill Scarsgaard

people will remember as Penny Wise from the It films and as... He's kind of always a freak, right? I can't remember who... What was his name

in John Wick for? Oh, did he have a cool name? Yeah, he did. He was... Marquis Vincent Bissette does something and... Yeah, that's a cool name.

He, de Gromont. De Gromont. Bill Scarsguard, Christopher Abbott, who folks may remember from girls, but is now kind of like an established and highly, critically, like, adored indie film and stage actor

and his intervening years. And Tom Pelfrey, beloved Tom Pelfrey from Ozark and Task are all being tested for have been tested for, have read for the most recent, and I don't know if any, I mean, who knows about any of this, but the most recent reporting from Jeff Snyder was

Pelfrey's out. Okay. But I don't know if we can hold stock in any of this. But there you go. You got to shave the head. Yeah, although McAvoy didn't shave the head in the first no, I know. But then he did, and then it looked very silly. Yes. And Pat Stewart just will not let that chair go.

No, you pry it out of his fingers. He keeps showing up. Yeah. But I think that's cool to go for a very young like this is a young cast that's a young professor X they can grow old together

you know how this looks right I mean it's right there it's good to be back I would say I was like kind of like is it good to be back yeah come on you missed it

we can just like there's probably a couple other things to touch on but like why not say it here before we get into it right. Can we just drop the audio? It's fair use, right? Before we talk about Spider-Man, my main takeaway from that film. It really is the thinking man's pause. It didn't. Finally. They took that joke from us. Yeah, sure. Yeah. My main takeaway, and this is, your mileage may vary on whether this is a good takeaway from a massive Spider-Man movie was it gave

me faith in what Marvel was going to do with X-Men because of the way. The way that that they introduced Jean Grey, for the all the caliber of the actor and the performance, instantly I was like, she's awesome, and she's a star, and she has the charisma to hold this movie as the villain. Did you get to her Stranger Things seasons? The first one. The first one, yeah. But I had not seen, I was not as familiar

with her work. And you hadn't seen her iconic running up the hill moment then? No, nor did I see her in, was it John Proctor plays the villain on stage? My wife adored that performance. She thinks it's like, like, the greatest thing she's ever seen, like was Sadie Singh I think that's awesome. So they, so already they were like working from a place of confidence,

but I think the idea of introducing them as kind of, you know, potentially not just feared and misunderstood, but maybe actively hated as terrorists for their behavior and their actions was, it's not radical. There have been chapters of X-Men history that have done that, but I thought that was an interesting and confident commitment for the beginning of that story inside an existing universe that also already has superheroes. Because I think people have said this for a while that one of the blessings, one of the many blessings that have been bestowed upon Kevin Feigy

was actually not having the rights to everyone because it allowed some focus because the idea of some superpowered people are heroes. But no mutants. And some are gross and weird. It's like that meme of the person calling HR at her desk, depending on the two people showing up. That is hard to square.

So this movie actually did a lot of, I would say that's true generally about the movie, but it did a lot of labor to differentiate heroic heroes from anti-heroes. I thought it introduced

what is the central thesis of X-Men comic books that makes them so powerful for so many generations of readers and viewers is like that idea of like difference and that idea of like

being rejected by society for your difference. And being hunted and feared and like I think that they articulated that really well in a Spider-Man movie. which we'll talk about now. So this is obviously spoilers

for what will probably be the most popular movie in the world this year. Yes. With Dune 3 and Avengers Dune's Day receipts still waiting to come in in December.

But outpacing the Odyssey. And out-earning endgame. Astonishing. You know, I was just having this conversation with a couple of friends on a text thread the other day about like trying to explain obsessions or even to count

for the movie Obsessions popularity. Who's on the text chain? Sheal. Jalen Brown. John Cruck. Choose carefully. That's fine. Mitch McConnell.

I've been very busy. Yeah. No, we were just talking about like, you know, obsession, really good movie. It's astonishing that it made half a billion dollars, you know, and how do you account for that? I kind of feel similarly about the Spider-Man movie, which I really liked.

but I'm also like this is the biggest movie of the year interesting like there's not to me a like it's not like a run out

and tell your friends how important it is that they see this superhero movie but I do think it's a testament to the goodwill that the franchise over many iterations

and specifically the Tom Holland franchise has built up that there is a repeatable experience people are having in the theater when they go see this movie. And you kind of come out with a little bit of a pep in your step, whether or not you think it's like dark night good or not.

Like you're still kind of like, damn, that was like kind of fun to watch and also a little bit surprising here and a little bit thoughtful there. Well, the level of quality of that franchise is really remarkable over the three iterations and particularly of this one. I would say that this might not even be like, this usually doesn't fall into our, um, daily wick of coverage, but like, it, people are seeing a Tom Holland and Zendaya movie as much as they are seeing a Spider-Man movie. I say that from my own household experience where my kids loved it and wanted to see it opening weekend, but I think the emotional engagement,

especially for my 13-year-old, is like almost entirely like these absolutely beloved and, you know, adorable, generally celebrities. Yeah. And, and the continuation of their story. And it was actually, it did my jaded heart good to see that I do think the reaction, I'm sure there are, there's a percentage of the audience, which is globally enormous, who are like, oh, I really like the, you know, Daniel Destin Kretton's like renewed commitment to physics when Spider-Man swings into Scorpion really kept me glued to my seed. But really, the fact that the, that the moments of tension in the story are, is she going to remember that they love each other or not? Sure. And that the movie essentially punted on that for future movies.

was incredibly impactful. And so you get to see in real time like a collision of some of the biggest movies of the last few years. Like it weirdly, and again, I think I'm with you in the sense that I'm like,

not like Jason Bateman and Arrested Development, but like her about this movie? Only because as a movie, if we're going to talk about it by its parts, I thought it was fine to good. I don't think it was like earth changing, but it does seem to unite

the same fandom that went to see Infinity War and Endgame with the fandom that 30 years ago went to see Titanic in terms of like I want to see the love story of our time play out. Yeah. That is an incredible Venn diagram if you want to be a successful, if you want to be successful at the box office. Did you detect any of the Tom Holland has hit pause on Spider-Man because he was so deeply

changed by working on The Odyssey that he wanted to bring some of the lessons of filmmaking that he learned from Christopher Nolan and apply it to Spider-Man? The moment that made me think of that quote was when early in the film when Peter goes into a bodega and he sees Ned for the first time. And he's like, oh, my God, my past has come and intersected with my presence. It's a feeling probably Odysseus felt as well as he too stood in front of his non-alcoholic beer brand placed just behind my face in every shot of this scene. Do you know what I mean? Like there was an intention to the artistic purpose in that moment. You're so cynical, man.

Yeah. No, and he's just like, with the part early on, he's like, even my Samsung phone can't find out what's going on. Yes. No, I mean, I live in the world. I get it. But to answer your question, 100% no. Yeah.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't successful in what it was, but it wasn't that type of movie. I just think that even before he worked on The Odyssey, one of the hallmarks of this franchise has been its willingness to have the types of human moments in both performance and, in script that are often the first things edited out. And like, just as a small moment, like,

Gene searching for VMAX and it's just the last thing her sister saw, it's been a fascinating case study because I think that was, that was a lovely little script moment. Like, that was a nice thing that had some nice emotional resonance and payoff. And then I do think there's a portion of the audience that's just like, what did that mean? Because they're just not used to things aren't being handheld. It was a non-spiteful commentary on Easter egg culture.

Exactly. And I thought it was like. well said. Not mean, not like a rugpole, but it was like sometimes in life this kind of thing happens where you think something is important and it turns out to just be something somebody saw on a billboard or whatever. You know, I take note that you like those human moments between Zendaya and Tom Holland just because... Is Chris Hansen here? As a amateur train spotter of like who rewrote what and credit, credited or uncredited screenwriters. Justin Kirtis, who wrote

queer and challengers and is very much like a screenwriter du jour and like very very popular. It was brought in to do some rewrite work on this screenplay and apparently part that he worked on the most were the Aunt May talking to Tom and the bedroom and then Gene later

and then some of the stuff between between Zendaya and Tom Holland but like specifically the stuff on Punisher's boathouse? We're going to get to him. And I thought you could tell that it had a lived-in sensitivity that maybe some of the other stuff did not. I would say that that was also separate and apart from whatever working arrangement everyone had.

Like that strikes me as incredibly healthy franchise management. Chris McKenna and Eric Summers, who are the credited writers on all three of the John Watts, Spider-Man trilogy. The community too, right? also from the world of community, from comedy writing, have the script credit for this movie as well, but they have not even been shy about,

like when Daniel Cretton has been interviewed about the movie, he's like, well, Justin and I were working on this on set, and Justin was on set. So Justin came on and was the screenwriter on set, which is a much more contemporary thing to happen in these franchise movies, they're constantly rewriting. Again, I don't have no idea about what was cut

or what was added or what the working relationship was like. But that strikes me as very healthy in that you have the people who carry the DNA of the franchise and of these characters to this point. But it is intentionally a pivot. And it's a largely successful, certainly financially, completely successful pivot into what the next few of these movies might be like.

So having a different tone, tonally different screenwriter on set works. Are you excited to visit New York City sometime in the next six to 12 months, go to a show, go to a play? Yeah. Look at Playbill and see was briefly possessed by Gene Gray and Spider-Man Brand New Day as a credit for like 85 theater actors. I thought you were going to say to go to New York and look around for my favorite Chippy because I'm actually in Glasgow by accident.

Like that I thought would be. There was a kind of, I thought there was a nice like kind of almost musicality to like what it was essentially the major kind of villainy. of the movie, which was Gene possessing. That was awesome. It was cool. It was also, I feel like, you know, I'm all about me a cult of this on this podcast. Like, we were so close in that every time we talked about this movie and then post-trailers, I was like, well, I just, I don't know.

I don't know what the movie is. I don't know who the villain is. Anyway, Sadie Sinks clearly playing Jane Gray. But I did not have the creative imagination to make that jump that she would be the villain. And maybe that's a kudos to the filmmakers because that was a very bold choice. to make the villain of this highly anticipated movie not just a new character, not just a new character played by a young actor,

but a new character played by a young actor that is also going to be the linchpin of an entirely new franchise. That's a lot on some slim shoulders, but it worked because it was surprising. And as you said, the way that they visualized her power was unique. and visually interesting.

And then also, to your other point, like, what happens at the end hints at why this level of power in someone unpredictable and unreliable is terrifying, as opposed to, I mean, like, this kid got bitten by a spider, but, like, he can't, with one thought, take out all of Manhattan.

Yeah, and I think that there, the reason why I've always responded to the X-Men as well is because I do think that to a person, all of their powers or curses, you know? And that's not always been the case with the Avengers kind of era of superheroes that we've had in the movies

and especially the later period stuff where it became a lot of like, I just shoot beams of light out of, like I'm just like, and you're like, I don't even know what you're doing. Like even Scarlet Witch, her powers, what are, like, man on the street challenge? What can she do?

What can't she do? What, you know? Can't she do? That's beautiful. All of the X-Men are like kind of crippled by their own, their own specialness. And it's like, it was cool to see them dramatize Gene early on as being somebody who is sometimes only have, has like the most looses control over what she's capable of. And again, I think. And people around her who are trying to provoke her to be even bigger or smaller than what she actually is.

And I think that when Fige's MCU has, has been its most successful, has been a sense of cherry-picking the canonical biographical aspects of characters that work best for the most successful screen version of the character, which is a long way of saying, I think I kind of remembered vaguely that Jean had a sister,

but that is not historically like a foundational part who this person is. And that was really smart. It was just a smart, they found it, they identified it, and they made it better for the story that they're choosing to tell. I just felt like we got in and out. Like, you know, like the sister, rest in power,

but, like, it was, like, not a belabored thing. Now, I don't remember if I, I don't think I knew anything about Sarah Gray. No, I don't think you did either. I say that as your friends. And I'll say it to a court of law, and I'll say it to these dateline cameras. You never knew her.

And you never visited her. And that wasn't your burner. Yeah. But, you know, it was, I'm curious your thoughts on this because you are more actively, not just a movie watcher, but you talk about movies more in contemporary movies. And I think generally, like, the bill of fare of what movies need to do these days is just enormous and groaning to accomplish everything, you know, character level, franchise management,

setting up the next one, all that. So there is no more, there's no more like elegant shape to a three-act structure, really. That said, I was a little bit thrown in the watching of it that the third act. of a Spider-Man movie, which are, I know this sounds insane to say, but are relatively precious, and that it's been five years since the last one, was this detour into the backstory of a different franchise's lead who is also the villain of this one? It was a momentum surprise. I wonder whether or not that's a very comfortable place for everybody who's involved in this to be, because, you know, I think there is some disappointment that we've had three Spider-Men,

and, you know, I didn't... And no Spider-Women? I didn't go back through and re-watch all those movies, so I don't know, like, where they go. They've obviously introduced some iconic villains. You mean the previous trilogies. Yeah, the previous trilogies.

But he's obviously the best person suited to be the new Tony Stark in terms of I can drop by for a couple of scenes or I can give this person, you know, a great platform to emerge. Right. But I don't know beyond, the

like Peter M.J. stuff. Yeah. What? And with great power comes great responsibility. Like I don't really know what they want to do with that character.

And it might just be that he is the ultimate locker room presence and the ultimate vibes guy. Yes. And what they can do is basically shadow pilot, backdoor pilot,

the X-Men. Now, what's amazing about that and you picked up on is that is kind of the role that the character has played in the comics for many years. I mean, there was, it's not just a cartoon that was called like Spider-Man and his amazing friends. There was a long-running comic in the 80s called Marvel Team Up that was Spider-Man and Blank.

And it was just a chance to like give other characters shine because they would inevitably hang out with him or cross paths with him. I thought the greatest success of the movie, separate and apart from the charisma of the leads, was its real knowledge of and celebration of the idea that this character, particularly played by this actor, is the heart and soul of this massive corporate president. project. Yes. That like, and that, and that he plays that role both in terms of our connection to it in the real world, but also within the world, everybody loves him for a reason. Like, the city loves him, fucking Punisher loves him, and that when anyone ever, whenever anyone plays in his sandbox, they are in his story. Right. And servicing the type of story that he tells, which is basically a selfless and generous and kind story, which is not always the case for X-Men and Punisher or whatever. And I agree with other critics. I know the midnight

boys were saying this as well, that of all of the Spider-Man media, which there's been quite a lot, this movie got closest to the comic book tone of this guy every day being like, Wednesday, man. And on a Wednesday, he may fight Tombstone and put Scorpion back in jail and then also be laid on his rent. And then, like, that is the nature of the character that there is just this rogues gallery and this constant, like, time to make the donuts of being this underappreciated hero. Now, historically in the comics, he isn't also part of the deep police. least state with surveillance cameras on every corner. But, you know.

Didn't you hear AOC said woke one is over? You can't get mad at Spider-Man. Well, also, Tony Stark's gone. So he had to partner with Palantir for whomever, you know, for his latest. I think he's a much better, like, basically, like, keystone of a world. Because he's so, like you said, like he's just so engaging and he is so likable. it's almost like Iron Man is actually like a testament to Downey's charisma because Iron Man himself is an alcoholic arms dealer

You know like I'm sorry, is that bad? It's more realistic but it is Let's say two other things I wanted to talk to you about Yeah, I can guess one one is The whole like I'm turning into a spider plot line of this Which I thought have they done that before? In the comics many times But only in the last like 20, 30 years.

And some of that storyline, you may remember from Madam Webb. I do. That's it. Like that there, that's the villain in that iconic piece of cinema, I think, was part of a time they told the story where it's just like, I am the original Spider-Man in which I am more spider-than-man. And there have been many of us. There was an actor who I almost, I don't feel like we should name him because I hope he has a beautiful career. Uh-huh. You know, I feel like he was, there was a lot of ADR in his performance.

That was probably the least successful part of it for me, I think, although pretty cool when he fought the ninjas. This is why you work on both sides of the aisle. Yeah. But I wanted to talk about Bernthal. Yeah, I would just agree with you about like the mutation plot worked as a thematic metaphor for the story and a way to get Hulk involved and stuff. but like that is Spider-Man becoming a thing like that is the least interesting

the least interesting versions of the character for me they have now done both. One is in which he's like, I shall become a spider and the other one is I shall become Iron Man in a space suit that also shoots webs. Yeah.

It's just a dude man. Yeah. That's what makes him good. What makes the Punisher good? Okay. No, I'm asking you. Let's talk about it. I was, I got to say,

I was pretty shocked that how much this became like a two-hander between Telemachus and Menelaus, because the way the movie... Menelaus? You don't think it's like a house? I think in the movie they're like, Menelaus. On the movie, they're also like, Dad's coming home soon. Fair point.

You know. I'm thinking, sorry. Emily Wilson walks in and she's like, you know how this looks, right? See the way we combine the threads. Adam Webb. Dad's actually not coming home soon. That's exactly right. I when he shows up at the beginning and like he webs his mouth when he's about to say the F word and they're doing the tank chase or whatever I was like oh they're doing this frantic friendly neighborhood Spider-Man thing and that might be the extent of his role in this film that was not the case so I was pretty surprised I would say that it was a good choice of like bench management to be like we have a great actor we have a great character that you might not expect to be the team up but in this new in the

this brand new day, if you will. These are the sort of people that he's dealing with. So I thought that aspect of it was fun. I need you to talk me through the burnthal of it because maybe it's just over exposure, but like I need him. I love him. Not as much as you, but I love him. I need a different color from his paint box.

Well, I think you're probably, did you watch the Punisher, like, the film that he made? Well, the short film that he made with. Ronaldo Marcus Green. I did watch it. And it is shocking that that character is also this character.

But that's what's cool about comics. It's definitely amusing to imagine people being like, what else can I watch from The Punisher? Truly. Yeah, because I never thought,

you know, maybe this is the future that they wanted for us, but I never expected my 13-year-old to say the words, I really like the Punisher. Yeah. Tell me more about Frank Castle.

It was like Phoebe Bridgers album, please? Sure. Yeah. Like, is he in danger of self-parity? I suppose any actor who goes big like that is. Am I partially to blame for that? Possibly. You know, like...

I appreciate your willingness. Is the constant, you know, invocation of a years-old Baltimore police, you know, detective that he played helping matters, probably not, you know? Especially because I would say the percentage of people for whom this is their first encounter with, you know, big time burnthal. I would say more people saw this than saw We own the city despite our efforts otherwise. I thought he was delightful in this movie.

I do think it's pretty fucking crazy that the entire film hinges on Punisher nearly assassinating Gene Gray with a sniper rifle. Yes, and instead blowing out Peter Parker's fucking liver. Yeah. And then Gene Gray is just like, breathe with me. She's like doing the same doctoring you did after you saw a house for a season.

Yeah. She's like, you'll be fine. Now just breathe. She does do the Neo, like just start pumping your heart again stuff. That's cool. That was pretty vivid. And he also gets off Scott Free. He's got visitation privileges at the hospital.

They're like, who could possibly have shot this guy? I know. And also, who possibly could have shot upwards of 65 people in a series of abandoned warehouses in the Bronx recently? So that's not Staten Island that they keep referring to. Staten Island is where he lost his family? No. Staten Island is, I think people are, people, you were saying, like, kudos to people for knowing VMAX is just what it is. It was just a runner.

Oh, okay. It was just a gag about a shared history that these characters had that determined their dynamic. Do you think they'll make more standalone Spider-Men? Yes. With Tom Holland. Yes. With Zendaya. Yeah, because they're married, so it probably seems like that.

Also, how many days did Zendaya do on this movie versus The Odyssey? This is the funny thing about all these actors who have got five movies this year is she's kind of only barely in two of them. Yes. She's incredible in the drama. Did you see the drama? I'm going to watch it. She's wonderful in the drama and she's wonderful in Euphoria. She's good in everything.

I have no notes about how good she is. I think that Spider-Man Brand New Day and the Odyssey, while she's good in both, it seems like she was there for like a couple of weeks. She was very good in her limited scenes and the show and the show. The movie pops when they are together. And it was the smart play to guarantee that whatever the next movie is will be as big as this one to delay their reunion. That said, it is just sort of interesting. Maybe we're behind on this. We're just noticing it because it's the biggest movies and the biggest stars.

But we are still carrying, I imagine, I know I am, this sense that like when you go to do a movie, it's like we've all seen the apocalypse now documentary. It's just like, I guess I'm going to be. in Thailand for six months with a lunatic changing his mind. Right. Like that is not the era of filmmaking we're in anymore. And instead it's like a series of days in Atlanta and a series of days in London or Tunisia or wherever. And they wrap you

out. And certainly stars of that caliber are able to do that and it certainly did help that these are the movies in which they fell in love and that her husband has complete creative control over. So I'm sure it wasn't like a hardship. They enjoy it. He's pushing big N. A on people. Pushing. Yeah. Once again,

these celebrities. But I don't know. I did leave the movie being like, that was all she did in it. Yeah. But it's fine. It is a, it's a sign of a successful franchise,

I guess, that they didn't act like this was going to be their only time making it, even though it may have been. Because the scene when the three friends are reunited has the same spark that the first three movies did.

And I am not so jaded that I wasn't like, this is wonderful fun to see these three young actors playing off each other again. And it was very stingy with that. So in the future, they're just going to get to know him again? I don't know. I mean, I think the fun of the ending, and again, I think we should give credit to Daniel Dustin, Cretton, who directed it and the screenwriters who wrote it because there was heart

and intention in it. Like, despite the things that, like, the boxes it had to tick and the fight scenes or whatever, like, I did think they thought cleverly about how to bring Anne May back and what it would mean and the moments that they did. And to leave on a moment of, you know, in the Reddeter era where people are like, well, no, clearly Ned remembers now and the spell is broken because Mephisto is too busy, you know, with harvesting Ironheart's soul to, no, it's just like that was a nice moment because either the spell is broken or it's just like a moment of you're the guy from the other night and are we friends or whatever it is. That should be enough. it is enough. But how they're going to integrate,

it does make me think that those characters likely won't be in Battleworld in Secret Avengers Secret Wars. You don't think Ned will be in Battleworld? I would say, you're really pushing your boat out. I would say with respect, Jacob Badlon is probably available and would like to be in Battleworld.

My guess is now. Okay. Do you have any... Do you feel like you've been also silenced on the fact that there is a strong... There's a strong take on the internet that the Hulk has been dispatched. We will never see Mark Ruffalo again because he has been too outspoken about Palestine. I didn't see that take.

I imagine. He has been silenced. Won't he be in the movies coming up? I am fairly sure that he didn't do the press not because of his outspoken political views, but because he is in Pasiunk right now. Getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. And that considering again, like, how totally fine it is to fly to Glasgow for four days and be like,

oh no, it's happening again. And then they draw him in the rest of the movie. You wouldn't like me when I'm mad. I think it's okay. And I think he'll be on, I think he'll be on Battleworld, baby. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair.

Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you can trust. Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.

Let's get to another battle world. Hot D. Yeah. S3 finale. Great. Literally great. Great. I have long said that there's no lock on this door.

You're free to leave Shawshank whenever you want. No, the only prison I'm in, I'm the jailer. Trapped in it up here. Where do I want to start with you with this? I want to start with you. I mean, I want to know. I think that my appreciation for this shown is greatly aided. by podcasting with the wonderful Joanna and Mallory.

You get context. And so I get context. I think I also got drawn into the lore more this year. And while I did not read the source material, I've done a lot of, you know. No, you're like the guy in college, you're kicking and screaming. You don't read the novels.

You read the criticism. I read a lot of like, you know, supplemental texts to aid my understanding of what was going on. I don't think that was smart, I think it would have been better to go into this, as I guess you probably did, being surprised by outcomes, if such thing were possible.

Well, yes and no. I mean, there's a level of surprise that is not veering into wonder that actually speaks to my, I think, deep disinterest in this show in the world that it's attempted to build in the sense that, like, this episode opens with Reneer getting news of Agon's proof of life.

Yeah. And I was like, is she happy about that or sad? That was my level of like remembering who cares about it. When she instantly bursts into tears and start screaming, where did that convince you that she was sad? No, frankly, because it's just like another day in the office. So why don't you get on the grill and cook a little bit here about how you felt about the finale, but now that we've reached the end of this third season? I mean, look, I think it's the same conversation we had about the season.

season premiere now in the B side of it, in that the show at its, I'm sad to say, I would have said at its best, but I think the third episode showed that there's a different version somewhere inside of here that they could have explored had they been able to or had they gotten started on a different creative foot. But other than that, other than that, like, Zag, I think the show is at its best a series of dots on a timeline. And with, some spackle. And so this was another significant dot. I don't think it's the sign of a successful show, certainly a mass market show, that I can watch it with, admittedly, like the mindset and attitude of a deep casual at this point, and be like half of what's happening this episode could

have happened at the midpoint of the season. Yeah. And then the secondary follow-up to that is, well, at least if they were stalling, because all shows manipulate time and audience interest. I mean, that is the nature of serialized storytelling in this medium. At least were the diversions worth it or memorable. And I have to say, I don't think they were ultimately. Like, if you think about how at the beginning of the season, we were pointing out things like, here's a promising strand, here's a promising strand. And at least in this season, we seem to be able to focus on them. And one of the promising strands was Kristen Cole and Gwain being like Fog of War friends, but halfway through the season,

Kristen Cole's like, let me be real with you. I'm on a suicide mission dog. And Quinn's like, okay, peace. And then Kristen Cole gets got. Yeah. And literally one person is like, hmm. I'm reacting to that news. Yeah.

And then it's like, oh, Laris and Agon, we're going to get a road trip for the ages between these two cooks. And then as soon as there's an army coming, Laris is like, so you're committed to this then. All right, see ya. you know, like that feels like watching a, watching other people play chess in the park as opposed to being on the board with them.

And that's a bummer. And that's separate apart from my reaction to other specific things that happen in this episode. It's interesting if you bring those two different things up. They were among my, if not my favorite. I mean, Laris and Agon actually was one of my favorite threads of the season. Primarily because of the actors, though, I would say. I think that the reason why I reacted so strongly to episode three,

which is the one that shot almost entirely from Reneer's POV. or at least her experiential kind of understanding of what's happening around her was so refreshing. Was because it offered the show, A, like different feel and a different tempo and a different look, but B, it was an editorial decision. It was like curation of an experience.

Yes, someone is making something. And I made this point last night to Mal and Joe and I don't think I made it very well. But I feel like this episode could have really benefited from the same kind of like, honestly, like pretty cutthroat treatment of Allison in this episode where they're like, she shows up in the last 30 seconds

to be like, I feel a disturbance in the force. And that's because that character probably was not with any other characters that she would have a conversation worth hearing about. But I don't know necessarily that I feel like a lot of the conversations that happen at various points in this episode had to happen as many times as they did.

I felt like there was a lot of repeat. repetition of statement of intent, statement of like allegiance, whatever it is. And I think that this gets to a little bit maybe of the source material stuff. You know,

the Game of Thrones series is adapted from a series of novels that are written from the perspective of very specific characters. I think that that is one of the great acts of adaptation that I've ever seen, frankly. I mean, like what they did with those books

and regardless of how you feel about the end of it, the last season of it, to make you feel, to make, I think, equally, people who have never read the books and have no idea what's going to happen next and people who have been waiting years to see the things that are about to happen take place,

to equally satisfy those two parties, is a really amazing act. But I think part of the reason why a lot of stuff in House the Dragon winds up falling maybe a little flatter for you than it does for me, but not super 100% successful for me is because it's being adapted from this very odd source material. And a lot of the events that have transpired and will transpire are, and then this

happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. But they're not necessarily evidently about family or about... Or personal transformation or growth or learning. The things you need, the things that TV shows are made of. Yes. And they went through great lengths to try and establish that by having a younger cast play Reneer and Alice in the beginning of season one they went to great lengths to establish character stakes by putting various people at Heron Hall

dreaming their lives away with Alice and Kristen Coles kind of like you know road to nowhere and like they've tried to do the work and I do think when I talk about it with Mal and Joe I'm definitely like oh like this is really

there will be a moment where Damon talks to Rainira and High Valerian, and that's when he's trying to encourage her to see herself as this God thing. And, like, there are good flourishes in this show, but I think there's something very static and a very kind of, like, reportorial about... It's infuriating.

For example, there's a version of Renira, and Emma Darcy's performance is exceptionally strong doing a lot of thankless things for the back half of this season. But there's a version of the character of Renira whose mission and whose goal is to honor the legacy of her father who was a good king and trying to be like him

but is frustrated in that ambition. The version of the character we have on House of the Dragon is one who's reduced to shouting Reddit prophecies to everyone to justify all of her behavior. Congratulations. Not to you, but I just mean like, but that is kind of infuriating. If you are pointing to a larger canon or a link to the other series

in order to justify behavior that really only makes sense in a history book about like, man, everybody was crazy, you're in trouble. Well, you're speaking to about what it's lacking in relation to other shows is the feeling that we need

from filmed entertainment of both emotional investment and the possibility of surprise. There are very few Tony Gilroy's, but if you look at what he did with and, which is also a story that had an ending, that he was writing toward,

and how when he stepped into the series development process, he was like, no, we're just not going to do that. We're not going to do the obvious thing where we start the marble here, and then we just roll it down. We are going to tell a story about a rebellion, and we're going to use this track in ways that you would never expect to get there,

and suddenly you care about characters, and within the creation, they're characters that have their own mini-archs that give us some meaning and sustenance. my biggest frustration about the show is that it shares this deeply nihilistic worldview that Game of Thrones ultimately shared that I think thinks it's smart

but is honestly fucking stupid. And particularly in the case of this show and I'm sorry it's a little bit gloves off because I found this episode so infuriating and ultimately the season may be more infuriating because it gave us evidence of look, we actually have a lot of life and spark here in some cast and in some creativity

and in some production design that we can show you when we're allowed to. So it's almost like I'm feeling harsher because of episode three. But if the fundamental belief of the show is that, guess what, both sides are bad, that's not actually as galaxy brain as you think it is. That's actually kind of nihilistic and just deeply unsatisfying. So both sides are bad.

We're not rooting for everyone. And death and ruin comes to them all at the end. What are we watching for? And I'm not saying we need some glimpse of hope that, like, you know, what's his name? Not Alf, the other one. Hugh. Hugh's, well, maybe Hugh will have a happy ending. It's like, well, literally no one gets a happy ending

because that still is somehow the currency of the land is that everything sucks. So in the big finale, there was a moment when the big crazy guy from the north is banging a shield, and they're all banging their shields. And I was like, well, this at least is trying to give us some sense of cultural otherness or place that these are the warriors who do this thing.

And the thing that they do has this effect on people. And it's not just running towards people until Dragonfire makes them run the other way. And I was like, that's kind of interesting. And then it culminated in him just having like a few good moments of, you know, I don't want to get Chris Hansen in here again, but using his sword on Orman

before he laughs at the Dragonfire engulfing them both. I'm like, man, I really hope James Norton enjoyed his time in Levesden. You know, like the catering on studio I can attest to, it has a really, there are some really nice options. Because otherwise, what are we doing? You know, again, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Like, they got a good actor to, like, have a little bit of a prissy personality and do some things. Yeah, I mean, like, a season long villain arc is not... A season long villain arc in rooms

until he gets stabbed up the butt. It's like, okay. Yeah, well, we put it that way. There are worse ways to make a living, you know? But there are better ways. But there are maybe better ways, uses of our time or uses of our actors.

I just found that so, all of the carnage and all of the intensity and the violence being amped up to hide the fact that there's nothing else there, so that even what the season appeared to be chasing, was Damon, who is a one-dimensional monster, wandering around the fog of war being like, damn, maybe we went too far. I'm like, I don't believe you.

He's also a girl dad, though. Okay, now can we lean in and talk about what's interesting to me? The choice to make it about the Targaryens, I think, like, the court of George R. Martin has proved me wrong. Like, I have sounded this sort of note, where I've said that's not actually the most interesting

thing about in my experience Westros is not the Targaryens their arrival their conquest of the world there are various insane kings

a couple of the good ones their fascination with flying nuclear weapons and their inability to control them like I think that that was so much more interesting to me

as a product of myth and history in the series Game of Thrones than it is is in practice in House of the Dragon. And I actually think that's probably as good as dragons can look, like on screen. You know what I mean?

Like, in terms of executing something, the reason why this show takes two years to get on the air is probably because it takes a long time to get the dragons to look as good as they do. And for the battle scene like Tumbledin to be executed the way it is. And, you know, I hate doing this. I hate being like, the show should be about Kristen Cole. But like a show that was about the bastards and broken things beneath those powerful people is a more interesting story than me than... The challenge of talking about the show season to season, and I imagine it's frustrating to some of our listeners, is that it does all come down to the original sin. And maybe we'll talk about it more detail next week, but I'm so fascinated by what FX did with the show adults, because basically John Landgraf, the head of the network was like, I believe in the show, but we screwed up the beginning.

We're going to make a secret new prologue pilot as a Mulligan. that rarely happens, and it certainly couldn't really happen with a show like this. But it is all stemming from that original decision because there are interesting things here, but you also have to consider, if you're considering the fake history that George R. Martin wrote, you also have to consider the history of Warner Brothers Discovery and what it was before that, and the failed spin off that they tried to get off the ground and how they needed to have some dragon content on the air to continue to justify all the other shows that they were making. And the decision to make something that felt safer because it started with where,

the other one ended, which is dragons, like you begin to have some understanding of that. Like, it is a much harder cell and a much tougher to explain to your executives as well as your boardroom that, like, so in this history, there's a character named Sir Ulf, who likes to drink. And what his decision making swings history. And we're going to tell that story. Now, I'm not saying that I could do it.

I'm not saying that any screenwriter alive could have pitched that successfully, let alone pulled it off. But that is so interesting. And it is the eighth best expressed thing in this finale. Do you know what I mean? Like he's a drunk and he's pissed off at everyone, but they gave him a nuclear weapon and look what happens because of it. Like that is compelling.

And when you're making the show, I'm sure the people making it were like, at least we got to do that too in addition to everything else. But that's not the focus. And so it feels really disappointing, I think, because of that. I'm glad that there's multiple, like, if you're going to do Game of Thrones the way they're doing, doing it. I'm glad that they have chosen to do

this and Night of the Seven Kingdoms and that, you know, I mean, I know that Agon's conquest is being rumored to like start shooting next year, I think. Like, it sounds like they're very serious about that as a movie. But I, you know, I still, I remain fascinated by this

television experiment to, like, bring this stuff to life and the conflict between the source material and the actual stuff on screen. What's, what's, what's her name? Masaria? Yeah. What an arc. What a legendary art this season. Someone finally comes up to her tears in their eyes. Sarah, Sarah, you must go to Pentos. And she's like, no, my place is here for no apparent reason, but sometimes I sleep with the queen.

Can we just say, in the 14 years that we've podcasted, this wacky medium television has taken us to some outlandish places? Sure. Recently, we went to Venus, where it turns out we shouldn't have landed in Star City. They definitively told us that. I would say of everywhere we've ever been and everywhere I've had to spend time for television, I think there is no place worse than Heron Hall. Like, it is borderline insane to me.

I mean, maybe they had the standing sets and they had to amortize them over another season or something, but like emerging from such like a lethargic prison box where Matt Smith, a compelling and charismatic actor is just yelling at a tree for half of the season. Then you just take another. character and put him back there.

And everyone who shows up there is a dream, kissing my mom. No, my brother's here. I'm like, well, he was, he really was there. He really was there. Didn't know that at first, but he was there. Tom Glencarnie is having the time of his life in that scene. And I pepped up at that moment. I appreciated that scene a lot. But like, can you, man of the people, bastard and broken thing, can you explain Alice

Rivers to me? Can you just? Yeah, she's like Melisandra. So she's a magic lady. She's a lady who made like a deal with like a lowercase devil. Like she made... Methistow. Because she tried to, was a keep her kid alive.

Right. And it didn't work. No. But the price she paid for using magic was like she could never leave Harrenhal. And it's like basically keeping her alive, but she can't leave. And so she's trying to bring people to Haran Hall like to have more babies, to have babies who are going to be powerful. Right. Correct the institutional wrongs done to her.

It's just a bummer. You have a friend that won't leave their house. I don't feel like you're sincerely listening to me. No, I'm listening. But I'm like, if you have a friend that won't leave the house, then you got to have other friends. You know what I mean? You can't always go over to their place.

It's true. You can't do it. So where are you? Where are you? I'm fine. I'm, I'm, I was, I was sufficiently entertained by like the Tumbledin battle and like the sort of the things that got checked off the board and what's to come. It's not coming back.

until 28, man. I just, I think I was really worked up in like, respect to the show in like a classic this pissed me off way. Way, because I just thought that the pointless savagery of the end just struck me as very cynical. Because why?

The Helena part or just the battle? No, I didn't even care about that. Like, oh, the butterflies are fleeing because a magic girl jumped out of a window. I have no, I do not care about this character. I she was knitting more prophecy it's cool that's cool it's like a new new supreme drop

like Reneer's going to wear that you know exclusive piece speaking of a supreme drop Helena where did you get that no it's just in terms of like do we don't use I don't want to use the word earn too much

but I'm just like give me some presence or stakes here other than another piece on this board to get to where we'll get in 2028 yes And, well, you're, like I said. I'll say it's just risky business to have a show that feels like so, so, so claustrophobic and then have a major plot point be how someone can't leave a place. Just maybe that's why I'm reacting. We can wrap it up there.

I do want to talk about adults. It's second season is coming soon, but that's an interesting industry story and interesting TV stories. Maybe we can file that with like our Thursday roundup of stuff. Thanks to Kaya, Kai and Sarah, for producing us today. Thanks to you. Are you, do you want to go check out the shards or you don't know yet? reviled, critically. That makes me interested.

Does it? Okay. No, I mean, I... You've been actually, while the cat was away, the mouse... Mouse was watching television. Smash Tivo. He watched, you watched a little bit of Sterling Point, because I mentioned it to you. Have you, you have not watched the Shards.

No. You watch the adults prequel. You're up on the, on Furious. Very up. All the way up. Okay. Fat Joe and Remi Ma all the way up. Okay. You love it when I, I know that you.

It charms you. That's a very current reference. Yeah, it's good. As opposed to... I sat on the fact that all season, Tumleton makes me think of the push-a-tie track Brambleton. I sat on that until the end of this episode. It's for the real heads.

You get to the very, very, very last seconds. That one is for Kai. Thanks very much, guys. We'll see you on Thursday. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if?

Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what-if. Just style you love and quality. can trust. Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.