The Watch - Yeah, We Loved 'A Star Is Born,' Too | The Watch (Ep. 296)

Episode Date: October 9, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald get together to talk about their reactions to ‘A Star is Born,’ including Bradley Cooper’s skill as a director (3:36), how the movie portrayed the music industry (13:25), and how the movie treats addiction (24:49). Read all of The Ringer's coverage of 'A Star is Born' here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me live from an Arizona pecan farm. It's Andy Green World.

A star is pod. What's up, brother? I just came from the Arklight. Or should I say, hey. Now, okay, wait, there's so much to talk about. My guy just came from the Arklight. It's Monday morning. We are going to talk about a Starsborn.

I saw it this on Friday night. I assume most of America did as well. No, they went to Venom. But a lot of people saw this too. A lot of people saw Stars Born. Yeah. It's a popular film. And it's a great text to talk about,

which is, I think, why we're dedicating this of this podcast. We've got tons of stuff on the ringer about a Starsborn, by the way. Fantasy also has a pod where he talked to Juliet and Amanda about a star is born, and there's a great fantasy pieces. Fantasy wrote about Bradley Cooper, Lindsay wrote about Lady Gaga. There's just a ton of stuff on the site to go look for, and we've been doing a lot of memes. Yeah, but this isn't about memes. No. This is about talking it out.

Content. That song you sang for me in the parking lot last night? Let's just, I arranged it. Yeah. Let's cut a number. Chris, here's what I wanted to come in and say to you. I planned my first bit, which was to say that what a pleasure.

What a pleasure to go to the movies in a movie theater and sit down safe in the knowledge that you're not going to see the Astar is Born trailer. I could just relax into my seat. Weirdly, there's a Clint Eastwood movie that's also based on a pecan farm. And Bradley Cooper's in that too. So I imagine that it is part of the Astars Born universe,

expanded universe. Yeah, it's like, It's basically what Jackson did before he grew a beard and started playing Kings of Leone covers. Did you stick around for the tag after the trailer? You're not the first person to make this joke. I'm not even making the joke. But Chris, you know, we haven't talked about this. No, you just walked in straight from the theater.

These are always exciting times because I feel like you see these movies almost like context-free. You're outside of the timeline. You're not really like talking about this stuff the way I am. I proudly announced that I quit Twitter this weekend. Yes. 36 hours clean, brother. Did Dave Chappelle get you to do that, or was it? It wasn't Dave Chappelle, but I got...

Did you show up outside of Dave Chappelle's house with NYC Southpaw on your Twitter? Like me, like, shaking? Weirdly, it was your manager that gave me to come to Jesus talk. Oh, yeah. He sat me down and he was like, you're going to relapse again. Was it Rez or Rev? Daz? Daz.

Anyway, I have not read a single review of this film. I've not engaged with any of the meme culture. that I could avoid. Uh-huh. I loved it. Of course you did. Come on. Of course you did.

Come on. Because you were, it's, you make fun of the Academy Awards montage where it's like, movies. Yeah. But movies are fucking great.

This was movies, dude. I know. Listen, this was movies in a major key. Sometimes it's okay to play songs in the major key too. Yeah.

If you're going to do the thing, which is, do it again. Movies. Do it. it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Do it. Yeah. You take the desiccated corpse of big ticket, fucking romantic cheeseball movies like this and you pound on that sucker's chest like you're Ed Harris in the abyss. Greenwald. That's what you do. I would look for you in 2020, man.

That's what you do. Make a movie. Stand up behind it. Where do you want to start? Where do you want to start? I'll start with the thing that I was very surprised to be saying. I'm not even ready. I need to take my shirt off and reveal my surprisingly fit body and Kaya, could you give me a shot of steroids? Is that okay? Okay, now I'm good to go. I'm glad Kaya saw this movie because otherwise that would be an awkward request.

You segued actually very nicely to what I want to say. I was fucking blown away by Bradley Cooper. Yeah, man. And, you know, he's doing Christofferson karaoke and he's... Little soups-on of Jamie Gum in there. Oh, I mean, the things that he's obviously drawing from. I mean, it's clearly like he's like, I'm going to take Father John Misty's face

and combine it with, I guess, a little bit of like, what if Jeff Tweedy had become you too? Like, what if Wilco had become you too? I'm very fascinated with how big he's supposed to be. Well, it's also all refracted through a delightful lens called, what if rock and roll mattered? Yeah, so we can get to that. But I just want to say that the level of commitment

to the entire, all the proceedings, So to all the proceedings by Cooper is really awe-inspiring. And I've always kind of like treated him with like a little bit removed. Like I give him a little bit of a Heisman, you know. But I really, really appreciate the fact that this is a guy. And you know, obviously like, you know, what stories we choose to tell when we get the time to tell them is another debate. But clearly this is like material that means a lot to him. I thought he did an incredible job directing himself, which is not an easy task.

it is his movie I do ultimately think that the movie is about Jackson rather than Alley and I think that his story gets a little bit more depth and texture than Alley's does but to me it was just like all the stuff that you saw in the trailer were like

oh I wonder if this is just going to be so ridiculous it was kind of like it was kind of really affecting for all the crazy stuff that happened to this movie for all the mistakes that happen for all the things I can nitpick I found his story to be incredibly effective I found the performance to be really moving You got to keep your eyes on the big prize if you're making a movie that aims this huge, I think.

And it did not get lost in the problematic weeds that we can take it through. We can go picking, and there are problems. And the problems increase as the movie goes on, for sure. But I think the word you use that really mattered especially is believed, right? He believed in this material. He believed in this character. He believed in this world. He believes in all the stuff about what you choose to say with your time.

and the 12 notes and the octaves. And he believes in the ecstatic power of a big song and a big crowd and just play the tune, man. And you could see that not just in the performance, but also in the direction. It is an exceptionally well-directed movie of musical performance. You and I both have interviewed musicians at length.

That was our career for a while. And do you know who is completely unironic, unmetta, un-clever about the healing power of music? fucking musicians. Yeah. One of the challenges of being an aspiring jaded prick

like we all were at that time was sitting down with people who wrote emotionally honest songs and hearing them say, I wrote this about someone that I truly love and be like, okay,

where's the nuance on this because I got to throw some adverbs on this and sell it? No, we did that. I'll go you one more. One of the biggest challenges about making a movie

about art is the possibility that the art might be bad. It's nine times to use it. It is a testament to this movie that it transcends the fact that I kind of just feel like there's one good song in this movie. What, Shallow?

Yeah. That's a good song. That's a good song. But I can't really remember a lot of the other song. Don't you think it's time to let the old ways die? I feel like it is. Jason Isbell wrote that. Who else?

That's a good song. Who wrote Shallow? Do you remember in Boston? Do you remember that mod band, Dan Personals? Kind of, yeah. The guitar player from that band and Mark Ronson wrote Shallow. Damn. Take it up, Boston.

Yeah, Anthony Rosamondo. Great. Good job for him. And he was in like the dirty pretty things. Okay. That's terrific. That's a great look for him. That's a number one record. It sure is. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, that's the other thing. So this movie is so good, it transcends the fact that the music that the movie is about is fine.

And they purposely, I think, make Allie's pop songs completely unmemorable. Yeah, we have to talk about that. I mean, that is when the movie misstepped a little bit for me, but it didn't lose the big picture, so I think it still worked. And the last song is actually actively bad. Yeah. Basically what I mean by that is, a good example would be more or less the opening, what, 45 minutes from the first musical performance through the first performance of Shallow.

And what a ride. The sort of the romance, the one-night romance, which there's been a lot of debate online that I do really. This is one of the reasons why this website should be free. Yeah. Is the trying to break down, he's leaving Indio, and he's going back. to Malibu and how he breaks down his trip back where he's stopping along the way and where she's

performing. He's also going to the airport, isn't he at some point the next morning? He theoretically he was going. He leaves the next morning and then she stays one more day and then finally gets on a flight. And where's that show? I think it's supposed to be red rocks, but I'm not sure. I mean, it looks like the Hollywood Bowl, but I think it might be. Okay. So you're trying.

So I thought you, well, a couple of questions. Yes, this movie would benefit from a collateral style breakdown of traffic patterns. in the Southland. There was another element of that first night, which generally, it's just the way he was put together, the way the title appears on the screen, telling you it was old-fashioned,

telling you what you were in for, wonderfully done. There was a small, what's the internet read on the flirtation? Because there were a couple moments in there that were a little bit like Steve Corell talking about bags of sand. You know what I mean?

Where he's just like, like the nose thing came back hard in the end and I appreciate it, But there's a little bit who's like, can I, can I touch your nose? Yeah. Can I touch your nose? I'm like, is that how we're doing flirtation these days?

And it's working. So great. Look, it worked. My favorite part about that opening act is the way in which they shoot the first performance when Allie arrives at the venue and then goes, Gail takes her and her buddy through all the various layers of VIP. Shouts to Anthony Ramos from Hamilton. I know. Kaking up.

He shoots that like a championship prize fight in Raging Bowl or like a bank robbery scene in heat. It's like a huge set piece. Or the Copa Cabana in Goodfelis, right? Yeah, and that culminates with them performing. And it actually, like, you've seen that so many times in trailers. I think people have talked about this. It's like there's a little bit of a risk because shallow is what's basically sold this movie and that performance and her finally walking out.

But they didn't include one line, which was pretty good, which is like, I'm going to do it either way. Yeah. You should come out and basically save it from getting screwed up. Yeah. And that's almost like this thing that prompts her to do it. but I thought that everything up into there was so kind of magical. And, you know, we talked about this, I think when Soldato came out, but I think we've talked a little bit before about how sometimes when you want to go to the movies,

the best feeling is submission. The best feeling is a movie that just kind of smashes you over the head. And this movie is like really loud. It's almost like vertigo-inducing with the kind of handheld stuff. And it's almost all close-ups. It's so... It's such an actor's movie. It's such an actor's movie of this gorgeous framing of these two people.

And in some ways, it could only be made by a famous person. Sean's talked about this because it at once lionizes and celebrates the romanticization of these larger-than-life figures. But it also actually does a good job of showing the claustrophobia of it. It makes you feel, like, uneasy to be, like, in that back of the SUV. Just going from place to place to place because that's what his life is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree with that.

I want to come back to this idea of a movie made by a celebrity, because I think that's an important movie, an important thing to talk about when you're talking about this movie. But I also want to talk about what this movie gave us, which we had kind of lost. And I haven't seen... We had kind of lost as America? No, just as moviegoer. Which I only recently, occasionally have become again. Have you seen First Man yet? I have not. I have not either. The trailer ran before this, and I have very high hopes for the movie. And when I was watching the trailer, what I appreciated about it was we have seen Gardy, of the Galaxy Volume 2, we have seen The Martian. Going to space is something that we are very used to see. NBD. But if you really go down on a granular level and look at the threading on the NASA costumes in the

60s, on the actual rickety nature of what the tech was that many years ago, it's suddenly thrilling and tactile in a very different way. Right. And in a strange sense, a star is born and was like that too because it reclaims something that we have seated to television, which is process.

In some ways, and I think the movie was at its best when it did this, it got away from it as it became more about starmaking and lionization and celebrity and addiction and all the other things that it was about, which were many things. It was about the process of performing a show or writing a song in the small moments. And the scene you're talking about is probably the highlight of that, although there are echoes of it later when she's recording

and we hear her say, I've never sung to a track before and, like, oh, okay, there's work here. He brings in a piano. That's easier for her. Television with all of its space has become the place where we can see actually how the sausage gets made, and then the movies are the place where we see the $100 million CGI sausage. I really like that this was a movie

that went a little bit more granular on the process. It took us from one place to another place, and it took its time, but I did not feel there were many fallow moments here. I did not feel that it was particularly slow. It also helped, again, this is the kind of thing you can say in hindsight when the movie is a success,

but if it ever was indulgent, that's the point to some degree. This is an indulgence, and it is a movie about overindulgence, right? Yeah. And the perils of it. So all of that worked for me, and in fact, I welcomed it.

So we talked about Cooper. We've talked about what we liked about his direction. Let's talk about your point about celebrity, though. Well, and I think that's a good way to talk about Gaga as well. I want to say, just last moment on Cooper as a director, this is so an actor's movie. And in terms of that an actor directed it. Now, highs and lows, but one way that you can tell, and this is something that, again, I'm bringing to bear some experiences I had on set, not when actors were directing it, but I have now watched actors, who I think are magical, go through their process and some of the things that they bring to it.

And so it's definitely an actor-directed movie because, I mean, look at the moments that we were given, like Sam Elliott, like just killing it, right? And really feeling it, and you can see the comfort level. you could tell that Bradley Cooper being an actor is like, I'm just going to let this camera run until you're comfortable. We're going to do this scene until you're ready, until you give us what you feel like you need to. I'm going to keep the camera right on you. Don't worry about all the other versions of coverage.

It doesn't even seem like the Chappelle scene was particularly written. No. It's more just like at least the talk they have in the yard. They're just kind of like running lines and talking about like being messed up. It's the best Chappelle's ever been in a movie. He's fantastic in it. The other thing that you get, though, that did get me at a certain point.

And there's a moment that I wanted to call. to, there's a moment when Allie is cooking for her dad, and she says, be quiet, be quiet, eat your dinner, eat your food. I forget what meal it is. Yeah, I forget what meal is. That's, I'm almost 100% sure that was a screw up. The line probably said, eat your dinner, or your breakfast or whatever it is. It's breakfast, I think. She says dinner. But that's her in the moment, just reacting and living it. And, you know, an actor's going to mess up and find something better, and the actor behind the camera is going to be like, that's better. Do it. That's great. Keep that in there because you're alive in that moment. The downside of it is that

every ninth word in this movie was fucking. And I am not a prude. But I probably... Oh, that didn't even jump out of me. It really jumped out of me that it was almost over the top. And I, again, I would bet almost 100% that if you look at the shooting script, there are maybe a third as many fucks.

But when actors are feeling it and talking to how people really talk and trying to find the rhythm of their character, like we do when we talk. Yeah. You throw in stuff. There's a couple of instances where I think the staging of a scene

takes you out of the reality of it but it's so convincing that you still go along for the ride. I'm thinking specifically of the confrontation between Elliot and Cooper when he's like, you got rid of my daddy's grave and yours like, your dad was a son of a bitch, yeah. But the way they shoot it was like they're grabbing each other's faces. And everyone's around them. And they're just like, that's never like, no one does that.

No. If you're having a fight, you're not like, I'm going to grab your face and you grab my face. And then we yell about our dad at each other. Two unintentional moments of comedy in the film. One is in that scene. where he's like, I stole your voice. And I was like, oh, we're laughing about it. They're friends now.

Because literally he's imitating him. But no, he was being serious. And that was this bone of contention. And he quit to go work for Willie. Two, Bradley Cooper, I'm sorry, Jackson, Maine. I just can't with that. Has his tearful breakdown. I embarrassed you at rehab when she visits him.

Yeah, yeah. He's like, I'm embarrassed you. And he's never. And then the cut when the woman's... There's just a chick sketching back there. And she's like, I'm sorry. I thought this was a public visiting room. Yeah.

You noticed that too. Of course. There was like a chuckle in the audience. That was an incredible cut. What do you want to? Okay, so let's talk about Lady Gaga. Yeah. So I think that if there is going to be any kind of backlash to this movie,

I'm sure there will be backlash to this movie because it's going to be in conversation until February. It's going to make, by the way, it made enough money this weekend. It's going to be a slow roller. It's going to make a lot of money. Yeah. It's basically how undersold or underserved her career is. And I think that this is something it's worth going into. a little bit.

Rob touched on this on the site, Rob Harvilla, but it's a discussion that's happening, which is basically rockism versus pop-timism. Oh, yeah. Which is a debate that kind of sprung up in the early mid-2000s. I think KSanna wrote that piece

in the Times and like 2004. Yeah, and it had been talked a lot about on message boards, like I love... And that diner by spin. I love music. And it's basically a debate that emerged out of internet discussion forums in the early 2000s

about whether or not, rock music was overvalued for this perception of otorism basically. Authenticity. Yeah, and authenticity. The fact that these four guys who wrote their music and produced it and recorded it were somehow more valuable than Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears or something else like that. Like that there was a superficiality to pop music that was actually like an unfair tag to put on it. And if there's something phony about singing a song someone else wrote.

Yes. Or if someone else played the guitar, even if you just sang it. And that's a main theme in this movie, I would say. Jackson's insistence that Allie remain authentic and also his inability to live in the world because he can't be authentic. You know what I mean? It's interesting because I think that they really purposely

show her pop career as one that I don't even know it would be particularly popular. Do you know what I mean? Like those songs and that production, like we've seen Lady Gaga at her height. Yeah. She was a lot more creative and imaginative and forceful a performer

than the version of Alley that goes out into the world on SNL. That's the biggest fumble in the movie, not just thematically what it has to say or not say about that very divide you're talking about, but the way it was portrayed.

Because I think that Bradley Cooper, Autour, I don't think he's unsympathetic to these ideas and he's probably considered them to some degree. And I think that one of the smarter things was exactly what you just articulated,

that the lead who is so authentic has to get fucked up to play pharmaceutical trade shows. Yeah. And he himself has lost that spark, you know, and that maybe he was only truly alive again when she was there and they were together and blah, blah, blah. I think it gets away from that because it loses the plot a little bit.

I think that the treatment of pop music and of her career as a star is pretty shabby if you start to dig down into it. And Andrew, who works for her site, was very smart about this. He was pointing out that the timing of like when she plays the season finale of S&L versus when she wins best new artist. It takes place over, I think, nine months or something like that. Because it would be May to February. Yeah, or something like that.

It's unclear how much time is passing in that second hour of the movie. Yes, totally. And I think that Lady Gaga, who is, I don't think I've said, is I think really terrific in this movie, and clearly brought a lot of her own journey to it. All the credited screenwriters either willingly or unwillingly adopted elements of her own professional career into it. It's like Eric Roth and Will Fetters?

Well, it's Eric Roth has the credit, and then it says, and Will Fetters and Bradley Cooper. So maybe there was an Eric Roth screenplay that Bradley Cooper and Will Fetters rewrote. Right, because this has been kicking around for a while. Quite some time. So there are moments, like when she says, I'm not going to be blonde,

I'm not going to have the backup dancers. Instead, she only has a couple dancers and makes her hair orange. So it's sort of like having it both ways. Like she stands up to the manager, but at the same time, I don't know who the actor was who played Raz or Des, whatever that guy's name is, I don't think he killed it particularly.

His name is actually RAS. Like, that's his character's name? Both. It's his actor and his character's name. So I don't really know what the deal is there. Is he just playing himself? Do we supposed to know who he is? No, I got the feeling that he was supposed to be cheekily, like a little bit of a Mark Ronson figure.

Well, I don't... Even though Mark Ronson worked on the soundtrack, but I think that they were drawing from... He's just kind of a villainous figure in a way, in a way that's like the suits that doesn't serve anyone. I think that was kind of a bummer. But if there is nuance to be found here, and there's some, if you peek, Like, he's not wrong about a lot of things. You know what I mean?

There's a calculating nature to stardom that I think the movie attempts to engage with on some level with through that character. He certainly achieves all of her dreams. You know, he certainly is one of the most successful managerial jobs in recent history to take her from where she was at the beginning to where we leave her at the end. What bum me out was the inability to accept that two things could be true at once in terms of pop stardom. Yeah. That there's always artificiality. And there's always authenticity. And if you get two in the weeds trying to parse it, you'll always drive yourself crazy.

The performance on S&L is ridiculous, and I think is either meant to be ridiculous or they drop the ball on that. Her performance, when she's, you know, dressed like Patsy Klein on stage with Jackson are terrific. Sure. And the performance at the end sucks. That's what bums me out the most when it's like the only way this is going to be truly legitimate is now that she's rubbed raw with real emotion. and she's at a fucking opera hall and she's singing a terrible ballad. Like somehow this remains.

And look, this is what stardom is often. This is what the Grammys often celebrates. It's someone stripped free of anything that made her interesting on stage. So I just don't know if that was the moment it meant to leave us with. All right, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and then we'll come back and keep talking about Star is born. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by just crack an egg.

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I didn't think it was handled in any way insensitively. In fact, I thought it betrayed kind of a familiarity with not only rehab and, like, like the kind of processes of rehab. But also some of the behavioral ticks that happen with addiction, like his kind of insistence that they pull off and get a drink because it's just like the idea of him being in the back of a car for that long. With nothing to drink for an hour and 40 minutes,

even though it's probably like 10.30 p.m. by that point is like that itch you can't scratch that you'll go anywhere to scratch. And I thought that there was a lot of real sensitivity to that. I thought it was interesting the way that they cowher. that character though. Like, the worst he ever is on pills and gin is kind of negligent and dopey. You know, like he forgets things

or he's antagonistic with her and jealous. Or he humiliates them both on stage. Or urnates on himself at the Grammy. That's bad. But it's never like... It's interesting how they keep it not safe until the very end. Right. Well, I mean, he looks terrific.

Yeah. He's super ripped. I agree with that. I mean, it's old, it's an old Hollywood version of addiction. I thought that there were a number of, you can look at the cynically or you can look at artistically. I thought there were a number of smart little moments or additions that helped boy this whole storyline. When she gets home from that first night, she says she's not going to go with him. She said, because he's a drunk. She calls, she knows who he is from the beginning. She can tell because she's looking at how many, he has like two or three drinks as soon as he

sits down at the cop bar. Yeah, and she knows what he is. Yeah. And there's that line to her father that isn't really explored, but she says, you should know. And then the father kind of apologizes later on because he's just like, this is on me. Like, I created this, like, the world in which you would be looking for affirmation

from a person like this, kind of. And so I don't know if the assumption is that he used to drink or that maybe the mother drank. I thought it was him, but, yeah. It's unclear, but it's there. I think that, you know, I didn't have too many. problems with it. I didn't have any problems with it. I just thought it was interesting because they bring that in and they bring in rehabilitation,

but the movie has the tragic ending that it has. And it's essentially, it's spun off as what her manager says, triggers him to go do that. But you could also make the argument that this was something that this guy had been thinking about since he was basically a pubescent way. Well, once it's mentioned. Yeah. And he had the pills in his drug, like, glove compartment.

Like, he was clean, but he was clean to the extent that he was still had a way out. You know what I mean? Yeah. The things that I appreciated about the movie were the way that it seemed to... The Jackson main character seems to understand what story he's in from the beginning. He does not take undue advantage of the situation. Yeah. He then is awake to the fact that he is now playing a very different role in the story.

And I thought it was, you know, this is a tribute to the filmmaking, but also maybe to Bradley Cooper's performance, because when she tells him she's canceling that the tour, or that it's been canceled, you know, she uses passive voice as it wasn't a choice or whatever. What his face seems to be understanding is time for this character to leave the story, or else she's not going to be the hero of her story anymore. And this might be me bringing something to bear to it,

much like we used to when we were rock critics back in the day, to prop up something that maybe doesn't deserve it, but I liked the way this character was lifted up by the myth-making of rock and roll and then understood it was his turn to be crushed by it in a way. Yeah. He was thinking about the legend, not his own life. And there's something that is particularly awful and tragic about that. And, you know, for as over-the-top as a lot of the movie is and should be,

as we're celebrating it for, the last 10 minutes, not including that final performance, performance are tasteful. Is that fair to say? I thought it was handled really well. I mean, I thought that there was definitely moments in there that could have been way more manipulative. I think the dog at the end is like is about as spillbergy and manipulative as it gets. Charlie? Yeah.

Shouts to Charlie. Shouts to Labradoodles. So there was that. I just wanted to bring that up because I think that that's basically the reason why Allie doesn't get really interrogated over the second half of the movie. is because the Jackson character and his rehabilitation is sucking up so much oxygen. And still, and this you could say, and I'm sure people have in the reviews,

well, this is the writer-director-star making it about him. Yeah. This is him holding onto it as his thing. And he's not going to let go of this movie, man. Like, she is every bit his equal, I think, in performance, if not better. I think it was pretty brilliant casting

because she is obviously, she's a very, very, very good actor, but she's a truly amazing and theatrical singer. Sure. And that you buy it. I thought she was actually more convincing as an underdog than she was as the pop star. Yeah, I mean, there was a... She seemed to like tap into something.

And maybe that's just because it's been so long since she... We don't really know who's Stephanie Germanade is. Like, you know, it's been such a long time. That I found, like, her performance as Allie, the woman who works at, like, a downtown L.A. hotel and does gigs at, like, drag bars and has to wear this uniform and lives with her dad and all that stuff I thought was very, very, very convincing, whereas like once she becomes Allie, there's a part of that performance that's been vacuumed out. And I think that that's on purpose to make it be like, if you do this, your soul gets killed. But what's weird is, and I

never saw the other Chris Christopherson movie, so I actually don't know how the narrative sometimes plays out. But the only speed bumps she has on the road to megastardom come from him. Right. There are no problems. Her record is a huge hit. She wins a Grammy. She doesn't. develop any noticeable substance abuse addiction, she still keeps her best friend close and her family. She seems great. Could the movie have been more interesting or complicated if it had gone in a different direction? Yes, but it certainly wouldn't have been as focused in a way as it was. The one thing I'm kind of obsessed with is trying to figure out where Jackson is in popularity throughout

various points in the movie. I want to go through some of the cast with you and do like a power rankings, but this was the thing I wanted to do first. So what is his fame? He goes out on stage. I think they shot it at stage coach, I think, in India, but it's the country festival that they have there. And I've had a lot of debates about this. You know, some people are like,

it's a fake world where like this, he's like Tom Petty, you know, basically. And then there are debates where it's like, no, it's more like he's a bad boy rocker, country flavored rocker who has become like, who is basically like what Kings of Leon were, like it has two or three songs that are enormous.

but then can still go play live and get a big crowd going. Or you like Dirks Bentley, someone who I've never heard a piece of music by, but seems to be famous? I think he's grittier. I think he's a little grittier than Nashville, though. That's the thing. He seems to have some crossover appeal. Yeah, but I think he's more, not even alt-country. Like, I can't even, it's not Gavin de Graal.

Like, I'm trying to put my finger on it. Here's why it doesn't work. Here's the moment that took me, the only thing that truly took me out of the film is when he's talking about, you know, how great it is that she's making it to Europe so early. And it took him such a long time to do that. And the guy's like, it was 2004. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm sorry, how am I receiving this information? Because you were a huge rock star in 2000 and fucking four?

I'm sorry, were you the sixth member of Interpol? Because I don't remember any big rock band super breaking in 2004. But look, the real thing is, the real, clearly I paid a lot of attention to the trailers before this because I was wide awake on a coffee when I sat down in the theater this morning. Sure. What was also telling about it was the trailer for the Elton John movie that's coming out. Oh, Rockerman, yeah. Outside in the theater was festooned with the Queen movie. Bohemian Rhapsody.

We can call Rami a friend of the pod, right? He's been on the pod, Friend of the Pod, Rami Malik, as Freddie Mercury. We are entering in pop culture the stage of rock and roll that actually rock and roll has been in and with itself for quite some time. Which really like, it's just mythology. You know, it's the museum phase. It's the museum phase. Like, this is where this stuff belongs. So when I sat down for the movie, when it was starting,

I was ready to be like, this is bullshit. Like, I just don't buy it. He's not popular enough. They should have done this with him as a, you know, like an up and coming Zanx rapper, SoundCloud rapper or something. I don't know. But then I'm like, no, this is myth-making.

This is... I think Allie and Lil' Zan would have been like a much different vibe for this movie. I'm willing to admit that now. Different mood. It is a movie intentionally out of step with the times in all senses, and it is a rock and roll story. And rock and roll is increasingly a place not that we go to to listen to the hottest or most relevant music, but at the place where you turn to for mythmaking and for well-worn themes and stories and for that same thing. I mean, I keep using the word meta, which this movie doesn't necessarily deserve,

but Sam Elliott's speech at the end about how there are really only 12 notes. It's just a question of how you play them. Well, that's the movie copying to itself right there. So I appreciate that. I am flummoxed by his role in the culture. But look, this is a movie set in a world where there is a Roy Orbison tribute at the Grammys. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Roy Orbison died in what year? Was it 1990?

Like, what happened in 2019, charitably 2018? I'm sorry, he died December 88. So it's strange that they would, A, I think there's still a. a couple of Wilburys out there that could have done the Roy Orbison. Look, they're fallen. Just saying that, too, Sam Elliott who is then by that point at the Grammys kind of back

in on Bradley Cooper. That's because he wandered backstage at S&L. Some fucking kid is going to sing. He doesn't have an explanation. We don't find out who that guy is. When they show him, it looks like Cameron from Ferris Bueller is singing. But he's British. Yeah. I don't even know who would... I know that, I think it's... I know

that Brandi Carlisle is the woman singing. Is that who it is? Yeah. I was like, it's the most Grammy's thing ever to be like, let's take a rock song and let's have some people with a lute and a British guy do a tasteful version of it. I'm actually, I'm looking now, is it, did it make the soundtrack? The pretty woman, where he, where he falls down. Yeah. That'd be pretty funny. No, seriously, though, I think that at some point once we get out of like the bubble of Jackson's world where it's like Sam Elliott and the people who are like put your inner ear monitors on, yes. It seems like people think he's a bit of a loser. By the time that she starts to get popular,

her manager is just like, hey man, what's up? Like, cool, like 2004 was a long time ago. And he's already playing like health insurance salesman conferences to make $6,000 or $20,000 or whatever that would be. So I think that he's already on the downslope. But he's still popular enough that when he walks into the changing room of a drag bar, every drag queen is like, holy shit, it's Jackson Main. Yeah, right. So who is that guy?

I think that that's... Like if Julian Casablanca's walked into the changing room of a drag bar, would every drag queen be like sign my prosthetics breasts? Would any member of the extended Follow Will family? I wouldn't know. I think I would recognize Caleb Follow Will if he walked into this office. I got to say, no disrespect to Kings of Leon. I wouldn't recognize those guys. Well, one thing that the movie got right in his defense is you might not know his songs or his face, but he definitely dressed and styled his hair in.

in an appropriate way for a rock star at that level. Yes. My main question during it was what do you think he smelled like? Really? Gin. Like just, that's a bold choice

for him to be a gin drunk too. I thought that was an interesting. Gin drunks are mad. They get fucking fights, man. I got to say, I liked when she goes to do like the, you know, the quick cleanup job in the bathroom before they're going to hook up and then he's just passed out.

side question was sam elliott in the closet where was he he he's like i'll put a pk farm during that first but secondly i was happy that he passed out when he starts making out with her at night i did have like a just a cringing like what what is happening inside of his mouth it's like jelly donut

camel unfiltered a pint of beef eaters and like whatever else do you think that in that moment when he was propping up his baby residue his baby brother's head so that he does not asphyuate on his own vomit. Do you think that Sam Elliott

like the caring older brother that he has also puts a small tin of alttoids next the bedside table being like Just a thought. You're going to need this one, baby bro? My favorite moment of the movie outside of the performance of Shallow on stage is the Sam Elliott

throwing it in reverse and driving away. Oh yeah. That was... First of all, I'm going to use that every time a Sixers play a Sixer gets injured. It's like Zeyer Smith broke his metatarsal. It's just like

but red-eyed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, cry. I really was moved by that scene. It's great. That stuff is great. It's a rock and roll thing too, man. Play the hit sometimes because the hits still work. The, you know,

it wasn't dead. It was you. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Great. Now, Lorne Michael should probably beef up security at SNL. I did not know that the road manager for Willie Nelson could just finagle his way back to Studio 8H and just hang out there. Also, do you think he keeps a fully stocked green room right behind underneath the risers there?

I've been to SNL, but I never got to see under the bleachers whether they have shiners sitting there. I mean, that would be pretty nice, I guess. Any other final notes you want to leave on, though? Yeah. Do you want to rank these guys? Did you know that was dice? Yeah. At no point during my view and.

of this movie, did I understand that that was Andrew Dice Clay playing her father? I'm not, we haven't not talked about cancel culture at a while, but Andrew Dice Clay's stand-up comedy did not age well. So it would be interesting to see if we try to get this, what about a best supporting actor for Dice nomination? Look, the narrative that I was always impressed by, I was, this is going to surprise no one, wasn't a big fan in the 80s, not running back his comedy tapes? Not to my taste.

No. But even then there was a narrative of like, oh, this guy's actually smart and sensitive. He's doing a bit, right? It's a character. That sort of stuff I don't think would fly now. I think that delineation wouldn't fly now, let alone the material he was working with. But the last 10, 15 years, you know, he's, I think he's a good, I've been thinking he's a good actor. Like, he was actually really good on vinyl.

Oh, yeah, that's right. No one else, nothing really was good on that show, but he was pretty good on it. And then he had that Showtime show. that we just aggressively did not watch our cover. But this was a really lovely performance and totally surprised me. Never for a moment did I think that's who that was playing a part.

Shout out to Ron Rifkin. Great performance by Ron Rifkin. Wait, what about the guy who's in all the Michael Mann movies who I love so much? Oh, the guys who are the other drivers? Yes. Yeah.

Grunberg, the alias reunion? Barry Shabaka Henley. Grunberg has made all the right friends. You know what I mean? But you got to get some credits rolling. Grunberg? Listen. Did he get credit for this?

Yeah, I think so. Well, Grunberg, I just think that dude lives right. You know, I think he made the right friends from his experience early in his career, JJ Abrams and Bradley Cooper, chief among them. He's fine. Yeah. He's fine. But yeah, Barry Chabaca Henley, who we love in Michael Mann movies in this, Michael Harney,

who's really good on Orange is the New Black, that detail, the guys who are the drivers with a fleet of cars out in front, betting on Japanese horse racing at 7 in the morning, those were the little grace notes and details that make a movie work. Anthony Ramos shouts to anyone from Hamilton kicking up also I feel sorry because I weeks ago

flagged him as my favorite part of the trailer the trailer that I can never watch again when he does the like excited slash namaste to her as she's drawn on stage he was great anyone else in this cast that you particularly liked

anyone I mean Chappelle Yeah The Chappelle scene is really interesting because there was a part of it where I was like, wow, they're really letting Chappelle just kind of riff. And then you could tell they tried to balance that out by like making the dinner table scene as corny as possible. Yeah. And I was like, I had no idea it was making a wedding ring.

Oh, give me some pliers. Yeah. I was like, what's you get the pliers for? Here's, should we just take a quick spin through the Wikipedia page, the development of the film? Sure. So in January 2011, Clint Easton. Wood was going to direct Beyonce. Then it was delayed.

And then Will Fedders, who was one of the writers on the project, talked publicly in 2012 saying the script was inspired by Kurt Cobain. So maybe it was going to go in a less-ruitsy direction initially. Talks with Christian Bale, Leonardo DiCaprio, Tom fucking Cruz, Johnny Depp and Will Smith to play the male lead all failed to come to fruition. All still with Beyonce as the female lead? In 12, Beyonce left the project. Yes, that's all with Beyonce.

Okay. And then Bradley Cooper was engaged. Yeah. And then Clint Eastwood, who was still directing it at that point, wanted Esperanza Spalding to play the female lead. By the way, Clint Eastwood did direct The Mule, the Starsbourne prequel that we discussed. I cannot, in a trillion years, think of a worst director for a movie like this.

For Starsborn or the Mule? For Starsborn. Okay. This is a director who makes really quality films generally. But shows up at work at 6 a.m., drinks two smoothies, does one to two takes of every scene, and wraps that shit in a third of the time he's scheduled for. He does not have time.

He does not have time for Sam Elliott to weep. Do you understand that? I know. He doesn't have time for that. So then Cooper was going to do it. But here are the... Ray Liotto was going to be in it. And then here's the biggest thing that I learned by looking at this.

Andrew Dice Clay, who played Lorenzo, was not the only person in contention for the role. For the role of Lorenzo, a lot of people reading for that? This is the language in the Wikipedia page, which as far as I am concerned is gospel. Okay. Clay was selected over John Terturo, John Travolta, and Robert De Niro.

De Niro, I bet, had a conflict. Yeah, he had a conflict called, I'm sorry, who is this? Click. Him and Bradley are tight. I'm really glad that we both like this movie. Do you think this will have a large shadow on anything, or is this a circumscribed phenomenon that people will say, Lady Gaga, Bradford Cooper?

I do think that this is going to actually make a lot of noise in the award season. I do too. response to some of the more lower, some of the more otorists, like, whether it's to Roma or First Man or Beale Street, like they've been very affirmative, but they've been somewhat muted. Right. And I think that it's rare that they get a movie that celebrates the entertainment industry, that celebrates star creation and star making,

and that is directed by, quote, unquote, one of their own, a person that they can roll out there and be like, you're the symbol of everything that's, like, great about major mainstream movie making. Now, I don't know whether or not the voter base is going to agree with that, the voting block is going to agree with that. But I think that this movie is, like you said, going to make money over the next couple of weeks. I think people are going to see it multiple times. Yeah, the record is going to do well.

I think everybody's going to tell their parents and their cousins to go see it. It's a four-quadrant movie. Yeah. Every generation could see this movie probably. Yeah, so I think it's going to be around for a while. And I think, I don't know if it's going to change anything or inspire, you know, any kind of like return to adult dramas. But I think that it's nice that it exists.

And I think that that's great. And it's also really cool to see somebody use their accumulated Kwan in the industry for something like this. I agree. And I think the other piece that I'll add to it, why I think it's going to be a juggernaut at award season. And, you know, we're doing this podcast now. There probably will be movies that you and I like more and will champion more as award season actually gets going. But the movie that I'm most excited to see this year, you mentioned it, is Alfonso Quaron's Roma, which is a love letter to the Mexico City of his childhood and political turmoil in the 70s. It's black and white.

It's apparently stunningly gorgeous. I cannot wait to see it. It's a fucking Netflix movie. That kills me. Now, would he have made this movie without Netflix's money? Maybe, probably, we don't know. I think they're going to put it in some theaters, so there's a chance to see it in a theater. but that bothers me that a cinematic genius like Quarona's movie

is going to be mostly on people's phones and iPads. I can only imagine what people who actually make movies for a living who make up the academy will think. So for me, it's not just the big, obvious movie versus the small movie winning because it's more popular. I think that element of it has something to do with it. It does feel like a movie like Star is born if you champion it. You're saying, like, this is what we're doing in these movie theaters.

This is what we're doing. I do think it's a great movie theater movie for that. Yeah, I do too. And I don't want to set up a Bradley Cooper, the true siniest autore over Alfonso Quaron. But this is the world we're in. Yeah. All right. Andy and I will be back on Thursday.

We'll be joined by Patrick Somerville. The creator and writer of Maniac. So catch up on Maniac. Patrick's going to be here. And we'll also talk about Saul on Thursday, I think. Oh, yeah. The season finale's tonight. Yeah.

All right. So we'll see Thursday. Great job, brains. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the Navy Federal credit union with three times the points on travel and two times the points on all other purchases. The flagship rewards card makes little excursions feel like the trip of a lifetime. Earn rewards, whether it's a weekend getaway, a short road trip, or even a daily commute, redeem points for cash or travel, and enjoy access to Navy Federal's online shopping center

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