The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 208: The Potpourri is About to Hit the Fan!

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

Mike tracks down Tom Frank, the Hollywood producer who hired him to host the game show that launched his career in television, only to learn his old friend has become a life coach. Or possibly, a career coach. Whatever he is, Tom Frank knows where all the bodies are buried, and tells a story or two that Mike would probably like to forget.

Hey guys, it's Mike Rowan. This is episode number 208 of the way I heard it. It's called the Poe Pari is about to hit the fan. The Poe Perri is about to hit the fan. Today's episode just might be my favorite so far. And for so many reasons, for starters, my guest is the most talented Hollywood producer I've ever met. Not the most successful, just the most talented. His name is Tom Frank, and I've known him for over 25 years. other things. Tom is one of the smartest people I know. I say this, in spite of the fact that Tom cast me as the host of a game show that I had no business hosting way back in 1998. In fact, Tom selected me over the man who went on to become the most successful show host working in television today. Not the most talented, just the most successful. Thanks to Tom Frank's completely inexplicable casting decision way back when. I got my big break.

A big break that opened up all sorts of avenues, including the one that led to the podcast you're listening to right now. But Tom Frank is much more than a former producer who gave me a big break. Tom is now one of the most sought-after consultants in Silicon Valley. For the last few years, he's worked as a career coach counseling, high-powered CEOs in the tech industry. And he has developed a legendary reputation in those circles for telling it like it is. I learned this a few moments into our fascinating conversation when I was chastised for describing him as a life coach the week before.

Apparently a life coach and a career coach are two very different things, as Tom Frank will explain forthwith. First, though, we have the true story of another aspiring talent, a singer-songwriter named Charlie, who came to Hollywood with stars in his eyes looking for his own Big Break. Now, I invited Tom onto the podcast specifically to discuss the remarkable circumstances around Charlie's Big Break, which is the story you're about to hear, and to get his perspective on how a guy like Charlie could wind up more famous than me or him or anybody that we've ever worked with. with. But Tom, for reasons that will be revealed at the end of our conversation, Tom thought he'd been invited on to discuss next week's chapter. Consequently, we don't have the conversation I thought

we were going to have. We have something much better, a wild romp down the dusty corridors of our respective memory lanes, which include a bizarre run-in with Whitney Houston, an illicit ride in the back of a catering truck, my own ill-fated decision to forcibly remove the door from a stranger's mini bar at the Bel Air Hotel after the wedding of Weird Al Yankovic. There's also a moment when I discover Tom, halfway through the doomed run of the game show, he had hired me to host, curled up with a bottle of vodka in Bob Barker's dressing room, contemplating the sudden and unfortunate turn of his own unpredictable career. TV after hiring the likes of me.

Strap in, folks, the popery is about to hit the fan. Do do do do do do do do do. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him.

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Post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash row. And watch what happens. Odds are you'll find a human resource that just happens to be a great fit for your company in 24 hours or less. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. This is the way I heard it. Chapter 30. Charlie's Big Break Charlie knew he had a hit the moment he picked up the guitar. The tune seemed to write itself.

The words tumbled out of his mouth as though he had known them all his life. Like every other aspiring musician who had come to Los Angeles with stars in his eyes, Charlie needed a break, a chance to show everyone just who he was. and what he was capable of. Now, finally, that chance had come. Seated across from him were two major players in the music biz, the legendary drummer who had befriended him a few weeks earlier, and the legendary producer, a man credited with shaping the California sound. Either man could have made Charlie famous literally overnight. Charlie stroked the neck of his acoustic guitar, took a deep breath and began to play. And really, it could not have gone better. The legendary producer

nodded in time with the music. The legendary drummer hummed along in harmony. It was the kind of audition every performer dreams of giving. And when the song came to an end, Charlie knew he was a few steps closer to stardom. The legendary drummer said, hell yeah. The legendary producer said, damn, let's make an album. And so they did. Over the next few weeks, Charlie recorded four original songs. With the help of the legendary drummer and two of his legendary bandmates, Charlie found the magic every famous musician tries to capture in the studio. But the legendary producer had issues with some of the lyrics. He wanted something softer, something more relatable.

Like any true artist, Charlie was not inclined to compromise his work. He pushed back. He had something important to say, damn it, and no producer, however legendary, was going to boss him around. Really? Who did the guy think he was? These were Charlie's songs, and Charlie would sing them the way he wanted. Long story short, Charlie blew it. He alienated the very people he needed most. The legendary producer stopped taking his calls.

The legendary drummer went back to being a rock star. Charlie took it hard and by all accounts handled their rejection quite badly. One day, after weeks of being ignored, he confronted the legendary drummer at his home on Sunset Boulevard. He'd brought a gift along, a single bullet. What's this for? the legendary drummer asked. It's for you, said Charlie. Every time you look at it, I want you to think how nice it is that your kids are still safe.

That did it. The legendary drummer was not one to take a threat lightly, especially one directed toward his family. Charlie should have known that. And so the legendary drummer beat Charlie, beat him like the drums he pummeled for a living. Then he threw Charlie to the floor and beat him some more. He beat Charlie until Charlie wept like a baby. But the hardest blow had yet to fall. One year later, a broke, unemployed Charlie was killing time in a record shop.

There he saw a poster of the legendary drummer playing on stage with his legendary brothers. They had a new single out, Blue Birds Over the Mountains, a cover of an old rockabilly song. Jesus, said Charlie, what a bunch of hacks. They don't even write their own songs anymore. The B-side, however, was an original. Never learn not to love, it was called. Charlie was curious, naturally. He shoplifted the record, and later that night, seconds after dropping the needle on the vinyl, he dropped his beer on the floor and collapsed onto the sofa in a stupefied rage. They had changed the title. They had changed the title. They had altered a few of the lyrics, but the rest was identical. It was the same song that he had auditioned

with, only now it was being sung by the legendary drummer, Dennis Wilson. No one can say if having his song stolen by the Beach Boys pushed Charlie over the edge, but no one can deny that in the months that followed, Charlie paid a visit to the home of that legendary producer, a man named Terry Melcher. Melcher then moved to Malibu, which was good news for him, but not so good for the new residence of his old home. Those people were all murdered in the most brutal fashion imaginable. Thus began, a killing spree that led to the trial of the century and eventually brought Charlie the fame he had so desperately sought. For whatever it's worth, Charlie's audition song had originally been called cease to exist, which Charlie stubbornly refused to do.

Long after his legendary drummer and his legendary producer had shuffled off their mortal coils, Charlie sat rotting in his jail cell, waiting for the big break that never seemed to come until it finally did. Forty-six years later. A really big break that finally rid the world of a mass murderer named Charles Manson. Never learn not to love. See what the Beach Boys did there? With the judicious deployment of a single double negative, Manson's ceased to exist suddenly sounds a lot less deranged

and much more like a Zen cone. That's how Dick Clark's advice had struck me back when I was auditioning to host, no relation. Next time, don't say a little. don't say hello to everyone. I was confounded. What did that mean? My expression conveyed my confusion. When you looked into the lens, he said, your first words were, hello, everyone. That's probably not the best way to say hello. It's not? No. And when you said, it's nice to see you all again. That's also a mistake. It is? Yes. People don't see

themselves as part of a crowd, Mike. They see themselves as individuals. They want a personal connection with someone they can trust. Your job is to be that person. That's what a good host does. He becomes a guest in the viewer's home. I realized just then that I was still shaking Dick Clark's hand, even though he had stopped shaking mine. I let his go, and he put it on my shoulder. When you talk to the camera, Mike, Don't think about everybody. Think about one person, someone you know, someone you like. Talk to them. And if you say, it's nice to see you again, make damn sure you mean it. Thanks, Mr. Clark. I'll do that. You can call me Dick, he said. All my friends do.

The next day, Tom Frank called me back. It had come down to me and that one other guy, the young kid with the white teeth and the suspicious tan. Maybe it was Chuck's lucky blue jacket. Maybe they flipped a coin. I don't know. But in the end, I was chosen to host No Relation. We shot 40 episodes that summer on the same stage as the Price is Right. I shared a dressing room with Bob Barker.

Not at the same time, naturally. We might have shot another season, but no relation was canceled, just as I had predicted. thanks to a revolving door of dim-witted celebrities who lacked the wherewithal to root out impostors, I wound up giving away our entire allotment of grand prizes before the first ten episodes had even aired. Tom Frank was beside himself. To this day, he refers to the show as, Ola Acapulco, which was where all our contestants ended up going. I sometimes wonder if no relation would have been a hit if Dick Clark had hosted, as well as produced it. I bet he could have steered those dim-witted celebrities in the right direction.

He was, after all, a master broadcaster, a host who was really a guest, a guest who'd come to me as a ghost, a ghost on my television, who always seemed happy to see me, even though I knew he could not. As for Tom Frank, he might not be the biggest name in town, but he's done okay. So too has the kid with the white teeth and the suspicious tan. A kid named Ryan, who missed out on no relation and wound up saddled with a steady gig he just can't seem to escape on a little show called American Idol. Well, are you sick of it yet?

Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth? You find yourself wishing we lived in a simpler time. Do you miss the rotary phone? Well, get over it. The genie is out of the bottle. The poop is out of the goose, I'm afraid. AI is here to stay.

And every business in the country is asking themselves the same question. How do we make it work for us? Well, the answer to that question varies, but you'll find it in a free guide that you can get right now at netseweet.com slash Mike. It's called demystifying AI. It's totally free. It's essential reading for anybody trying to make

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demystifying AI. It's filled with super useful information. And again, it's free at netsuite.com slash mic. That's netsweet.com. NetSuite.com. Slash mike. Well, here we go. First things first, Tom. Assume that I've said some things about you in the introduction that we're both incredibly true and deeply flattering. And gentle listener, be aware that Chuck is on the line with us as well. This is a little nerve-wracking for me on a couple of levels, Tom, but primarily it's because you and I over the years have clearly established again and again ad nauseum that we don't really know where the line is. And by that, I simply mean I

know where it is, but only because you've always encouraged me to step over it. And in stepping over it, I learn the part of the map that says, here be dragons and usually retreat to safety. However, that was in our working relationship. Now we're just friends. And Chuck knows that there are any number of topics that we probably shouldn't talk about. And should you push me in that direction. I'm counting on him to swoop in and somehow make it all better. Ladies and gentlemen, Tom Frank. Hello, Mike. How are you? I'm pretty great, all things considered. It's great to see your face. I take it. You're in Palm Springs. I am in Palm Springs. And, you know, the temperature is over 100 here, but after listening to last week's podcast, I'm coming in hot for a completely different

reason. Tell me more. Why? You actually. told your listeners that I was a life coach. Why didn't you just tell them that I was like a rakey healer or a street mime? That is like me saying, oh, Mike Rowe, I think he's a trade show model. I mean, you have this wide audience and you say, hey, Chuck, guess what Tom's doing now? He's a life coach. What, am I wrong? You are wrong. So what's your business card say? executive coach and consulting. I actually work with CEOs in Silicon Valley like this week's chapter, and I train their management teams and I also train their CEOs. Interesting, because also mentioned in this week's chapter was the sad and strange tale of Charles Manson,

which I think a lot of people, if we're playing word association, might immediately go to Silicon Valley CEO, but you'd be in a better position to confirm or deny that. Well, you know, I was usually the guy they called when somebody had burned through $75 million, and the company still didn't have a product or a market or anybody buying it. So, yeah, there's a lot to be said there too. So to clarify, you're here today because you were one of those people, and still are in my life, who either on purpose or accidentally made a decision that affirmatively changed the trajectory of my misspent career. So I want to thank you for that and talk to you about that. You're right. You're not a life coach. The way I typically produce or I just gave it away, the way I typically introduce you when I'm talking about you is a producer's producer. And tell me if I'm wrong, when we met, that's what your business card said. But you've taken it to a whole new level. You produce your life. You produce everything in your life. Everything around you

is a version of a production. And for that reason, I thought it would be fun to pick your brain on any number of topics beginning with, let's start with your wardrobe. You're dressed entirely in white. Why?

I just played tennis. And it's 120 degrees here. Did you win? Actually, yes. And was the tennis date spontaneous or was it produced by you well in advance? No, actually, it was fairly spontaneous under the circumstances,

although there was discussion about, you know, limited options at 8 a.m. in Palm Springs before it gets too hot. So it was going to be tennis or hiking and tennis won out just for efficiency purposes. This is amazing. You're actually answering my questions. I hope you are cutting this all out. This is the most boring podcast ever. This is never going to make it, guys. No two ways about it. So you're wearing a white shirt. We've known each other for what, over 25 years? I was trying to. That's where you're going in? I was trying to make, I've been trying to do a, look, Why don't you bring it back to like, well, in honesty, Tom, you were my life coach. So maybe it was a Freudian slip.

That's fine. That's fine. But look, give me a little credit. I don't want to simply tell my vast audience what you're like. What I wanted to do was meander. It's like unfold. Exactly. I wanted to let the conversation meander in a nonspecific way,

specifically to see how long it would take you to start producing this podcast. And you just did it. literally just told Chuck what to edit and what not to edit, and we're barely in three minutes. Actually, I was just going to say the circle is all the way around now. And what, what hand has the pebble grasshopper? So, all right, let's go back a couple decades. I walk into your office to audition for a show and I'm wearing Chuck's blazer. Did I get it right? I love the fact. I love, I love the version that you and Chuck remember of this. But yes, you did essentially get it right. And you tease the fact.

about who I had to convince the network not to hire instead of you, and we can get there in a second. The jacket was probably the most memorable part, but I mean, honestly, I knew it. No, but the reason why you stuck out was the simple fact that you clearly didn't really care about getting the job. And when you're in the production capacity where you are seeing all these eager beavers one after another with their carefully quaffir. personas, you were just sort of odd. And so I thought, well, he's the only one that I really sort of remember. So again, nod to the jacket, Chuck. But so you made it through that first round just because, quite frankly, you didn't seem to care if you were going to make it

through the first round. I had just lost for the second time host of the Daily Show. And I don't think I talked to you about that on that day, but I'd been hired originally over the weekend and fired over the weekend when ESPN let Craig Kilbourne out of his contract. And then a year later, hired again until Comedy Central coughed up $4 million for John Stewart. So by the time I got out to L.A., I was fully expecting not to get the gig. And I think maybe what I was doing was channeling my frustration at getting screwed over by Comedy Central into what you must have seen as a level of indifference and apathy, which, weirdly enough, you found strangely beguiling, I guess. Well, and I mean, and if you think about it, this was the very first show that FX ever committed

to produce, because before that show, all of their programming was re-licensed programming. And as you also know, since we used to call the show Hello Mexico and it was a complete train You know, I sort of made it up on the fly, inspired by, I don't know, what was it called, to tell the truth. There was nothing about that experience that was going to go smoothly. So if I would have taken the easy choice, maybe. But before your second audition, I think, or immediately after, we were in the Mexican restaurant drinking margaritas. So we also broke every single protocol between, you know, producer, potential. talent. I think we brought a bunch of people from the office along. You were just, you were a very

congenial kind of guy. Well, good Lord. I don't want to name names or speak out of turn, but I mean, I believe I'd fostered a relationship with your assistant briefly, which was also inappropriate, but great fun. Yeah, although for that one, I'm not sure that you two were surfing my couch. It might have been the guest room. I was going to say, is that what the kids are calling it these days, fostering a relationship? And we could just leave out the fact. that I had an unrequited crush on the same woman. So to watch you just sort of sweep in, start the show. The producer's always in the back, just wondering if there's a water for him in the cooler.

So I can relate to that, Tom. It was the jacket. Again, Chuck. The women were helpless. You're welcome. Thank you. No, but wait, I don't want to do another shaggy story. So, I mean, when we get, but when we got down to the, when we really got down to the wire on this,

And it was between you and Ryan Seacrest. And the network very, very, very much wanted Ryan Sechrest. I mean, very much. And at that point, you and I were already kind of friends, or else you were doing your best, like, faux, Mike Rose and Sierra, hey, we're tight kind of thing. You bet. I totally went to the mat for you.

And I still think the show would have tanked if I'd had Ryan Seacrest. But I don't know, maybe I'd have a more successful friend now. So I guess I made it. I made the wrong choice either way. Well, look, I mean, people should understand. This was before Ryan Seacrest was Ryan Seacrest. Correct. He had a big radio show at the time.

And, I mean, he looked like he fell off a box of Wheaties if Wheaties was designed for show host. Or if it were designed for generic Ken dolls. Yes, absolutely. Right. I mean, he just the hair, the teeth, the tan. And he was young. He literally checked every box. And I, it didn't become super weird until more and more time went on.

And he became increasingly, I mean, I was always a fan of Dick Clark, but he truly wanted to be Dick Clark. And has modeled his entire career around Dick's career, including taking over New Year's Eve. So I put myself in Ryan's place, right? He's got stars in his eyes. He's got a plan. he has an agenda, and here he comes to Dick Clark Productions. It must have been a very big day for him to audition for a show that by all rights, he probably should have gotten.

Like you said, the network wanted him. But somehow, somehow, the stars lined up. Maybe it was the tequila at the restaurant we went to, or maybe it was your assistant at the time. I don't know what it was. I think it was my rule that I would never hire anyone prettier than me. So. You had to make it weird. I teed it up and you had to make it weird.

But okay, so look, go ahead. Where do you want to go with this? You've got the charisma. My judgment has been validated a thousand times over by your success, by who you are, by how you connect with an audience. I think my instincts, I stand by a thousand percent because if you asked me today, who I'd rather go have a beer with, honestly, it would still be you. And I think if you're going to cast somebody for any type of show that you want to,

you want to be hanging out with that person and you're still that guy. That's why, modesty aside, thank you. But that's why you're a producer's producer. In my view, what you just said could go to the front of any how to book with regard to casting. In the end, it can't be about the focus group. It can't be about height, weight, can't be about wardrobe. Sorry, Chuck, no matter how awful the jacket is. It's got to be about something else.

And I think the desire to sit down and have a beer or your drink of choice, whether you're a producer or a network executive or a viewer, most importantly. I didn't fully appreciate that or learn that until maybe halfway through dirty jobs. When viewers literally, I mean, that became the kindest compliment I could receive. I'd like to sit down and have a drink with you. And you and I just got to that place faster than most. Well, I don't want to make your abnormally large head any larger. And yet, another thing that makes you stand out is that you are curious, which is something that is paid off in spades for your career, but you're smart.

And you asked questions. And particularly when you are looking for talent, they've been prepped or their agents have somehow convince them that they should just go in and be a blank or be this, do this. You really wanted to understand things. And so I don't know anybody that doesn't want to work with someone that isn't curious and wants to learn. And you've always wanted to do both of those things. And you do it respectfully, for the most part, and sincerely. So that's another way that you stood out. So I guess maybe I should ask somewhat earnestly, because I think a lot of people who listen to this are in the business or around the business. But is there, and there's a lot of advice in the book. And I feel kind of dushy now because I didn't mean to write a book filled with advice.

But when Dick Clark, your boss for how many years? Five. That's boss I ever had. When Dick Clark pulled me aside and said, look, I know you want to be a broadcaster. and I know you're broadcasting. But that's macro. You're micro. You talk to one person at a time. It's not hello everybody.

It's just high. And that was another one of those little tropes, little bromides that actually made a sound in my brain when he said it, right? It just went click. And so it was one of the things I've never forgotten. And because you had a front row to see, you had a front row seat to this. guy every day. How many of those moments did you have with him? And if so, what was it about those moments that made him the best boss you ever had? What I loved about Dick is that he was very straightforward as am I. And there was no gray zone. You were either in the good column or the

bad column. There was no middle column. He was really clear on what he expected. And then he gave you enough rope to either climb out of the well or hang yourself at the bottom of the well. He was willing to help. I never felt like he was over my shoulder. But if I needed him over my shoulder and I said, hey, I want you to come do this. He was there for me. He was so smart. He had done everything. He had seen everything. He had watched people go up and down. And he was just steady. He came from your part of the country. He was a hardest working guy that I needed. He was a hardest working guy that I knew and I respected all of that. He was also the cheapest man that I ever met in my entire life. I will tell you two stories lovingly. The first one was the first time that I went to his house

and here I am, kid from Ohio, you know, worked at Procter & Gamble. I was just a straight up Ohio kid. I'm driving out to his house in Malibu with my then pregnant seven months wife. We get to this massive place on PCH. It's like, go past the first gatehouse. house, to the real gatehouse, to the next gate house. And we're in this house that was spectacular, but it was like a museum. And I am nervous as the day is long. And I'm sitting at this bar, and I am just blowing through this ramekin of nuts. And I get to the bottom of the ramekin, and I see the American Airlines logo. And I sort of look at it, and I kind of like flashed it at my wife, and she sees it. And Dick clocks the whole thing. And he looks at me, and he goes,

goes, they gave me that ram again. And I thought, yeah, sure they did. You want to bet. You put it in your wife's purse. But there was another time, you know, back in those days, when you were a TV executive or a producer, you had an office, but you also had a decorating allowance for your office so you could make it all tricked out and, you know, like MTV Cribs. And I came in one morning and Dick was on his hands and knees with like a cuticle scissors, like evening up some carpet threads. And I go, I go, what are you doing? And he goes, I'm making this carpet last. And I go, that's my carpet.

That's my personal carpet. And he goes, up, never mind. And immediately got up. He's like, oh, it's not one of my assets, man. I'm out. So. But he was a producer too. He couldn't not mess with stuff that was in his sphere.

Like he just, my sense of the guy was that he thought he could make everything a little better, and in fact, he could. And so he did. He did. And he was an amazing guy. And I mean, what he taught me about producing is actually really good parenting advice. Because if you think about it, when you're putting a show together, you're hiring people that all have a certain expertise. And their expertise is, you know, what you should wear your Zania suit from last week. Or, you know, white shirt for this week. How you should look. All of these things. But you're hiring people that are hopefully really good at what they do. And it is unavoidable that they are then all going to fight with each other about their competing priorities as children fight in a family for

attention and validation. The producer's job is a dad's job, which is when three people are standing down on the set and they're all arguing about what color to paint the wall, somebody has to go down, listen to all three of them and say, paint the wall red and move on. And that's really what a producer a parent do is that they sort of mediate those situations, process the information, but they have to own and be accountable for the decisions. But you also have to create the illusion of collaboration. And I say that because... Do I? Well, when we work together, you did. I didn't say you collaborated. I said you created. I said you

created the illusion of it. And I watched you many times, asked people for opinions that I knew you weren't going to take. Right. You know, but you want people to be involved, whether it's people who are decorating the set, whether they're deciding what voiceover talent to hire, to introduce me, the host of no relation. I remember you were involved in that conversation. A thousand little details, but not for nothing.

Put yourself in my place for a minute, right? I'd never hosted a game show. I couldn't believe you hired me to do this thing. I'm sleeping on my buddy's couch one day. And the next day, I am standing in. Bob Barker's dressing room. Literally, Bob Barker's dressing room, we were on the same stage over at CBS where they shot the Price is Right. That's correct. So Bob is in there during the week. I'm there during the weekends. We're doing five shows a day. You know, Bob is in the

headlines for all sorts of things. There's a big sofa right there in the dressing room, begging the question. I wonder what went on on that sofa. I've got, I've got on down. Come on and tell them what she's won. So, you know, I'm trying to. I'm trying to. I'm trying to, to get my head around the reflection of the guy in the mirror who's about to impersonate the host of this show that deep down he knows he shouldn't have been hired to do. And over the course of that first day of shooting, we shot five shows. And I could see with alarming dread, you doing the math and realizing that we're giving away the grand prize every time because these celebrities are too damn stupid to figure out who's not related. So at what point did you decide, I got to put my finger

on the scale? I've got to do something as a producer to save this show because it was a good show. We were just simply giving away too much money too fast. My guest today, Tom, Albanyes, is an American giant. And I'll tell you why, Tom understands on a fundamental level, that the business of mining is a non-negotiable prerequisite of our civilization and our economic independence, just like the business of making things. American Giant knows this, which is why they committed themselves 16 years ago to make all their excellent clothing right here in this country. It wasn't easy, but they did it. They sourced locally grown cotton, And they built factories in towns across the nation where they could hire hardworking locals who cared about making a quality product.

And then they went about the business of gently reminding people that when you buy a piece of clothing from American giant, you're not just buying a high quality sweatshirt or t-shirt or another pair of jeans. You're investing in a local supply chain. You're supporting communities from the Carolinas to California. And you're getting a piece of clothing that won't just survive. the wash, you're getting a garment that'll get better with age. Check out their high-quality staples, hoodies, teas, denim, built to be worn year after year at American-giant.com slash mike. It's quality you can feel and a true American success story that you can be proud to support.

Use code Mike. Get 20% off your order at American-giant.com slash mike. American Giant, American Made. Giant American Made. Wow. So, yes and yes. And I think, actually, what I flashed to was a time that I think you might have found me hiding in the closet of Bob Barker's dressing room with a bottle of vodka. After I had actually checked the scale and realized how much over budget we are.

To help out your listeners, when you do something like a game show, you assume that someone will win the grand prize this many times, the mid-price. And that's how you build your budget. And yes, because the celebrities were so stupid, every single contestant was winning. And I will tell you one quick side story. There was a day when our imposter did not show up. And the imposter had spent a week studying this family so again, they could fool the dumb celebrities, but our imposter didn't show up. This was a very lovely Southern California Caucasian family.

out of desperation, I grabbed an older African-American janitor out of CBS and told him that he had to play our imposter. Now, folks, remember, the job of the celebrity guest is to figure out which family member is not really related. Somebody is impersonating the identity of one of the Johnsons. and in this case the Johnson family is white from Southern California. But Tom, what he's telling you in an effort to somehow stop the bleeding and the constant giving away the grand prize, he puts a black janitor on the Johnson's into their family.

And what did the celebrities do, Tom? Well, no, the black janitor crushed it. So I didn't mean for you to do a spit take. But no, so again, the family won the grand prize. I mean, so. The celebrities thought you were trying to fool them. Correct. It couldn't be this obvious.

It couldn't be not him. Well, and the other thing, too, because of apparently the scandals that predate both of us, thank God, of the game shows, where there was, like, rigging, there was, there were all of these laws and things that you were allowed to do or not do because you could not influence the outcome of the game. However, there was one break in taping right after the celebrities decided who they were going to vote for, and before we did the reveal, where I would go up on stage so that I knew what was going to happen. And they'd show me their card.

And after about the third week of disaster, obviously I couldn't influence who they were going to vote on, but I'd started this sort of like, really? Are you sure about it? Are you sure? You know, because, and you know, somebody would say like, well, you know, I thought it was that janitor. But then I was like, you know, and I'd be like, well, sometimes you got to go with your gut. So, you know, we have about 12 seconds if you want to change your answer. Oh, man.

You know what? It spurred a lifelong friendship that, you know, I mean, and you talk from your perspective as obviously. you had never done this and you felt like an imposter, exactly how many game shows had I produced at that point? Zero. And here's one that I had made up in my own head. So it's not like I was sort of rolling off of a place of great knowledge and authority in terms of what should happen. I was good at pretending that.

That's what I do. But I didn't know what I was doing any more than you did. Yeah. But that level of mutual ignorance did not lead to our undoing. What led to our undoing, the way dark matter so often ultimately changes the course of history and our personal lives was something that we simply could have never predicted. You never could have predicted that three otherwise intelligent celebrities would be so collectively stupid and unable.

Like, the game you created was not that difficult. Correct. And the algorithm and the actual. and the actuarial charts you put together vis-a-vis the, you know, the giveaways were conservative. Like you were saying, all right, maybe once a week you give away the grand prize. We gave away five grand prizes in a row. Yep. And then five more.

And then four out of five. And then it was just like this. We're done. That show would still be on the air today. God help us both if the average B-List celebrity in Hollywood were just a little smarter. Correct. And you know, so many of them are currently on primetime shows. And every time I see them, I'm like, cost me 10 grand. I mean, like, you just can't, you can't ever unsee. Oh, man. Glad you can learn your lines because you sure can't tell who in the hell is from Mexico. So, anyway, let's go somewhere else, Mike. Take me away from the scary place. I was just about to. And then I realized I'm not.

sure what place isn't scary. Like, I want to ask you about Wickedly Perfect when you went from producer to talent, sort of. This is a Martha Stewart show. And forgive me, we don't have to talk about it if you don't want, but it was one of those moments where my affection for you and my respect went through the roof because I know how frustrated you get with talent sometimes, like any good producer would, and celebrities and all of the other things that you can't really control once someone says action.

But to see you on camera with Martha Stewart in a show that you should have won but didn't. I don't know. What do you think my listeners would like to know about the reality of reality shows from the point of view of a producer who dared to crash his way into a contestant? status. I don't know how to tell this story in a succinct way, but I'm going to try. Okay? So my wife and I, I tried to retire early, which we know was a mistake. My wife and I were having a bottle of wine and my son wanted a survivor buff for his birthday. So we were on the CBS website. There was a small button in the corner that said, do you like to entertain? Do you think you're better than everyone else? Click here. I did. We, under the influence of the wine,

filled out a questionnaire, which we thought was hysterical, but unfortunately later became my official CBS profile. And at that point in time, I was thinking about going back to producing because I had taken a break. I had produced a few of the early reality shows, an ABC special called Neighbors from Hell that we don't need to talk about,

but I was in the genre when it was early. And I thought, you know, I produced shows for CBS, including the ill-fated Weird Al-Yan. Kavik Weird Al show for Saturday morning, there is no way that CBS would ever cast me in a show because I have produced for that. But I know the reality TV is changing. So I'm going to go through this casting process to see what I need to know when I go back to producing. Shockingly, I made it all the way through the casting process. And they took me to CBS, and it was like a Noah's arc. There were two very attractive blonde women of a certain age. There were two tall

guys at this. And literally, other than their pairs, there was one of me and there was one of another type. And we sort of looked at each other like, okay, maybe we're in. And they take me up to, and Nancy Tellum was the head of CBS at that point. And Chuck, you thought your blazer was like off the hook. I was wearing an orange hazley blazer that I had gotten from like Mr. Turk or something. I was just, I was totally putting it out there. So jealous. And the woman, I sit down in her office and there are all these other executives and she said, well, you're married and you have two kids, but you know, that blazer and everything, you know,

I don't know, you read sort of gay to me. And I just looked at her and I said, well, you have one of the worst haircuts I've ever seen in my life, but I didn't immediately assume you were a lesbian. And she goes, interview over. And it's, that's how I was cast. Now, to answer your question, when I got to the undisclosed location in Connecticut to compete to be the next Martha Stewart, I knew within a millisecond that I had made a horrible, horrible, horrible mistake. And at the end of that first episode, sort of like whatever that trilogy series was with Jennifer Lawrence, I volunteer in his tribute. So when it came time for the judging, I presented my now infamous butternut squash soup in the stock pot with a pot holder on the side of it and a spoon in it because I wasn't playing.

I wanted to get off of that show. So I committed suicide on reality television to get off. But I taught all of the other contestants how to play. how to play, which made the producers crazy. So we would do things like I would pass out cigarettes to people because you weren't allowed to smoke on network television. I showed everybody how to turn off their microphones. I like fogged cameras in the bathroom.

I was truly a producer's worst nightmare. So I guess I got my revenge as a contestant and a producer because I really did just make their life hell. Now they got the final laugh because they edited me in truly the most unflattering way possible. And I remember I was sitting there with my family because back then there weren't too many reality shows and we were getting Survivor's time slot.

And Survivor was the marquee show. And suddenly an ad comes on and it's me standing in the foyer of this faux Connecticut mansion and I am screaming and pointing and I go, I want to see you and you and you are completely irrelevant to me. And this big Chiron comes up on the screen. and goes, the potpourri is about to hit the fan. And I just looked at my wife and I'm like, I am so hosed. So that was my experience on the other side. And I don't think I've repeated that until maybe coming on your podcast.

Well, I don't. Will I be judged as unkindly a second time? By some, perhaps. But anybody who looks at the totality of your career isn't going to know how to judge you. because look, I met you as a producer of a game show and an employee of Dick Clark Productions. Within a couple of years, you were a major executive up in Seattle. Right. Who is it real networks. Real networks. Yep.

I mean, you rose to the top fast and you were doing something that required a completely different part of your brain. At some point, you punched out of there and you opened up your own, it was like a cosmetics line. I bought a cosmetics company that I flipped. Yep. Yep, and you were basically running that out of a cabin up on the lake, up in Leland, in Michigan, right? So, you know, again, putting yourself in my place, I'm trying to figure out who my friend is and what makes him tick and what he's going to do next. And I still really have no idea, but from there, I think you entered the most extraordinary phase when the dot-com thing was blowing up and companies didn't have names that actually occur in the language.

Right. You ran a number of those. I don't know if you want to talk about them, but it just seemed like there were a lot of them. And you were both good at it and kind of in a wickedly perfect way, it seemed always so close to the next eBay, the next Amazon, the next whatever it was. But you had a front row seat to all that craziness too. And how did being a producer help you or hurt you in that phase of your life? I don't think it either. I mean, frankly, I think if I'm going to give credit to anything in my, what we'll call a glowingly portfolio career, it was honestly the management training that I got to Procter & Gamble because it was common sense. And I'm a pretty pragmatic guy. Now, working for some of those startups, I was doing a little thinking because I was obviously reading the book again before we talked today. I mean, Silicon Valley is one of those places where there is conformity and nonconformity. And everyone celebrates nonconformity like, oh, they came up with a new way to rent a house or brush your teeth or buy a car. But the dirty secret is that there is a lot of conformity. All those crazy nonconformist thinkers are wearing their zipper vests and their khakis and their blue shirts. It's a program.

And so I think what I've always done sort of like you is that I've gone in and I've just asked questions. Why are you doing this? Why do you think this is a good idea? is this really a better way? Is this a problem that needs to be solved? If it's not a problem that needs to be solved, why are you doing it? Because there was this explosive time in Internet, 1.0 and 2.0,

where people would say, like, you know, new way to order a drink, and they would get $5 million the next day. The problem was, again, I was a guy that they called when that turned out to be a bad idea, but that they'd hype the hell out of it. So a lot of what I did for that phase of my career was, again, going in and being the grownup and saying, okay, we're going to clean up this. We don't need to spend any money on this. Maybe we should rethink this. But it wasn't as sort of mut-like as it appears.

I mean, I look at your career and you've done a lot of different things. I was just talking to Chuck about the foundation. I mean, if you would have told me that the guy that was hanging out on my couch in the electric blue blazer, was going to do everything that you have done for the trades in the most sincere and committed way possible, I would not have believed that, frankly, 20, 25 years ago. I mean, I knew you were a guy with high ethics. I love how you love your family. But you yourself have had a career that's frankly more similar to mine than dissimilar. Well, thanks. I can't disagree with you. I don't know that we'd be talking today had Dick Clark not said, talk to one person at a time, or if Fred

King hadn't said, never mind how you're doing, what are you doing? Always what, never how? And if I hadn't learned at QVC way, way back that the submissive posture, you know, admitting, you don't know what you're doing, being vulnerable on camera, all those things combined got me to dirty jobs. Because to your point, I did ask a question that I was genuinely curious. about, which was, what if a host acted like a guest? What if that construct actually just like a viewer, somebody who you might want to have a beer with? What would that look like in the context of a show? And so those questions and those answers led in the most organic way possible to the foundation that you mentioned. When Fred died in 2008 on Labor Day, that was really the inciting

incident. I mean, there I was impersonating a host on a show that was actually a hit in 180 countries, feeling really good about a lot of things, but wanting to do something, wanting to give back in some way that didn't feel earnest or icky or too grand.

Right? And so, whatever good thing happened, and is still happening around microworks, only happened because once upon a time, a music teacher took pity on a kid with a stutter and a really good good producer, ignored Ryan Seacrest, and said, let's hire that guy. And that guy's buddy let him crash on his sofa and wear a particularly hideous jacket that the guy who went on to fail deliberately and wickedly perfect would eventually trump in his own whatever it was,

charteroose lemon-colored way. So, wow, you had to work really hard. Do you need a class of water? You had to really work hard to bring that one home. In spite of that really shitty observation, Let me pay you one more compliment. You dropped a name as only you can do. You just glossed over Weird Al. Weird Al Yankovic was kind of incredible, and your work with him was really great. And my favorite thing you ever did on can't,

you weren't on camera, but it was very similar to this. You did the notes after the Weird Al show that you produced on the DVD. We did the DVD cut, and Al asked me to be there for the director. commentary, yes. One of the most entertaining things I've ever listened to. Can people find it? Is it out there anywhere?

I know that the DVD collection is out there. And yes, it's a very unvarnished version of me. I want to go back to one thing you said, though, because since I'm not a life coach, but you talked about, you talked about vulnerability. And seriously, that is one of the things that I spend a lot of time teaching CEOs is that it is okay to be vulnerable. It is okay to not know. I mean, when you're 35 years old and you're on top of the world and a bunch of people have made like $100 million bets on you, you feel like you are supposed to have all the answers. And there is nobody that you can tell that you don't

know how to figure this out. And the smartest and best CEOs that I work with are willing to say, I don't know. I don't know. So that's something that is a common thread across all industries, ours and every other. I enjoy working with people who don't act like they have all the answers. Did you learn that lesson in one lightning bolt of clarity and realization? Or is that one of the lessons that you're just kind of doomed to learn again and again in a dozen different scenarios? I think because we are friends that you know that the answer to that is the latter. Since I'm one of the most narcissistic people that you know, I'm going to just go out on a limb here and say, no, I didn't have a light bulb moment of, wow, I'm going to be vulnerable now because I've always sort of acted like I've got it all together. But I guess that's why I do what I do now is that I want somebody to know that it's okay to not have it all together because they're really smart things that you can.

can do to figure out how to get wherever you want to go. Do you remember weird else? Oh my god, that sounded so life coachy. I know. Literally, I got like a Hester print L on my chest. So just stop. But I mean, look, if if there is such a thing as good advice. Yep. And if it, you know, whether it's conventional wisdom or antithetical to it, whatever good advice means, right? I mean, maybe it comes from a host. Maybe it comes from a producer. Maybe it comes from a producer. Maybe it comes from an anarchist. Maybe it comes from a life coach. I mean, Tony Robbins is an easy target. Okay, stop. I'm going to make the point because he's enormous and he's in the business of dispensing advice. And for that reason, I don't really take him seriously because he's too deliberate. He's

doing a very, very deliberate thing. But I still remember the moment where I walked into Georgia farm vowing to quit QVC before they fired me for the third time, not. sure of what I was going to do and feeling weighed down by all the trappings that I'd accumulated in this mansion that I didn't own but was living in, just in time to hear him say on the big screen TV that I had left on in the living room. I don't know how his sentence began, but it ended with, and the more things you own, the more things own you. And it was another one of those moments where, okay, this guy's like a televangelist meets a life coach, dispensing all sorts of stuff that could be dismissed as pabulum.

And yet, in that moment, I heard the exact thing I needed to hear, gave away all my crap, and started walking the world like Kane and Kung Fu, which ultimately brought me to Chuck Sofa and then you. Thank you. I was going to say, I was going to ask Chuck to weigh in here. I was like, so was this a gross rationalization of why he's plunged off of you for all of those years? Because he was really just living his truth and his religion as inspired by Tony Robbins.

If that's how we're rewriting the narrative, that I would like to raise my hand for some other chapters. That's what he told me. Shameless plug. Long before she was Peggy Rowe, my mom was Peggy Noble, daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble. It was her father, Carl, who inspired me to pitch a show called Dirty Jobs to the Discovery Channel

and later start a foundation that honored the kind of work Carl Noble did for a living. Trade work, skilled labor. That foundation is called MicroWorks, and today I'm proud to tell you that we've helped thousands of people get the training they need to begin a career in the skilled trades. In fact, we'd love to help you.

You can apply for a work ethic scholarship right now at microwworks.org. We've set aside $10 million for this year's applicants. Thanks to a number of very effective fundraisers, including the one with my grandfather's name on the label. of course, to Noble Tennessee whiskey, K-N-O-B-E-L, which is now available in a variety of delicious mash bills, all of which you can peruse at Noble Spirits.com. In fact, if you spend 100 bucks and use code Carl, C-A-R-L, you'll get one tube of orange bitter-infused sugar cubes for free.

That's code Carl with a C to get nine sugar cubes, ingeniously engineered to make nine perfect old fashions every time. It's my favorite way to support microworks and my favorite whiskey to sip responsibly after a long day of interviewing people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirates.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-Spirits.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. Look, my point was, Tom, call yourself a producer. call yourself a husband, call yourself a life coach. Whatever you call yourself, the advice you're dispensing is either worthwhile or not. And I've, well, I was going to say, I've never

heard you say anything that wasn't worthwhile. That's not true. I've never heard you say anything that wasn't memorable in some way, shape, or form. And you said a lot of things over the years that impacted me. And I bet we're going to hear from people who are listening to this hot mess and say, you know what, that guy Tom Frank said something that makes a lot of sense for me too. We just don't know. We just don't know. All we do is puke the stuff up and hope some of it lands. But you just revealed the magic secret, which is listening.

Because if there's one common denominator, again, people who are willing to listen to other people, that's how you get good advice. It's not the advice that comes at you. it's your ability to listen. You have always, always, as long as I've known you, you have solicited input. If you were thinking about a project, if you were thinking about doing something, you have always solicited input and you've listened. You have not always agreed. You have gone 90 degrees away from some of the conversations that we've had.

But, I mean, I even remember when you were going up to San Francisco and we had a conversation. And you're like, I don't know if this gig is the right thing to do. and I don't know if I should be doing this show. And we waited all out and you went. And guess what? It was the right thing to do for you. The same thing is true of executives. I don't care if it's a software company.

I have this amazing client in L.A. that just launched something. One of the founders was on the cover of time last week. I mean, they're going to just blow up, but they listen. And I guess if that's the secret of what I've learned as a big loudmouth, as a fat old guy, is that I now understand and really treasure the value of listening and then asking questions. When did you get fat?

COVID. You're not really fat, but you're not your normal, you know, paired down. Okay, we do definitely do not. If you made me go to Wickedly Perfect, we're not going to go to like a, I'm doing swell, audience. Not swollen, clearly swell. Correct. But, you know, the listening thing, you listened to me back in that San Francisco moment. And it was difficult.

I didn't tell anybody, very, very, very few people about the fleecing I had endured and the nest egg that I had lost vis-a-vis my trusted financial advisor who turned out to be a charlatan. And when you talk about being vulnerable, you've had ups and downs, too. I mean, everybody has. And so when I was thinking about moving to San Francisco to take a full-time job, you know, I hadn't had one of those since QVC. And it just was a complete, it was a tear down. You know, I had no money, and I didn't want to take this job because it just felt like a betrayal of the romantic version I had of myself at the time.

And I remember sitting on your back porch, like just puking all of this up to you. and you listen to all of it. You didn't say anything for like the better part of an hour. And there is a bit of a shrink in you. There is a bit of a life coach in you, whether it's as a producer or a friend or whatever it is. And I appreciated that. You listened a lot and you gave me what I think is some really good advice. And, you know, here we sit congratulating each other all these years later on a podcast,

listen to by dozens. Yeah, but you know what? you're sincere and you're successful and I'm just successful. But you know what? You're a good time too. Back to Weird Out real quick. Yes. Do you remember his wedding?

Uh-huh. I do. What do you want to talk about there? I think you were an uninvited after party guest. I was. I was not invited to the wedding, but I wound up. We were in Beverly Hills at the... We were at the Bell Air Hotel.

We were at the Bel Air Hotel. And you had come from the wedding. And this is just one of those moments that it exists like a snapshot in my mind. But we were, our significant others were with us. We were in a room. It was late. And the desire for alcohol had reached a level where we really couldn't wait to have any of it delivered. So we turned to the mini bar and the door wouldn't open.

I don't remember exactly what happened, but in my memory, the way I remember it, you said, would you just please open the door? And I ripped it off of its hinges. And then we drank everything that was inside. That's right. But the important part of that story that you just omitted was we were in the room of a stranger that we had just met. Oh, right.

It was not my mini bar. This is not my. My beautiful men, Bart? Exactly. No, if we're going to talk, if we're going to talk about adventures that we have had in our life, I would much rather talk about the story of when I was at Clive Davis's Grammy Party, which for me was like this fantasy invite. And this was before there was like texting or anything else like that,

but somehow I was able to communicate to you that I was at that moment in time at Clive Davis's Grammy Party standing dangerous. close to Whitney Houston and Penny Marshall, who were having a discussion about Whitney, where the bodyguard kept threatening to throw me in the pool because I was standing too close, but who wouldn't? And all of the sudden, you show up at one of the hardest to get Hollywood events, and maybe you can take it from here because I'm pretty sure it involves smuggling in a catering truck. So how did that happen, Mike? Well, you told me where you were going to be. You said it was a fancy schmancy party.

You said a lot of people are coming and going. So a man of certain improvisational qualities might be able to Forrest Gump his way into said affair. I drove over to the closest place I could get to the address. I got out of my car. I'd been living in the marina at the time. And now suddenly I was somewhere in Beverly Hills. And yeah, I got in the back of a cage. catering van. And the catering van drove up to Clive Davis's house and I hopped out, took large steps like I knew where I was going.

And moments later, I was seated with you at that very pool right next to Whitney Houston. And yeah, it was a kick, man. It was just one of those weird Hollywood nights. And you're right. It was the kind of thing at the time that I knew was very important to you. And you know, you were important to me. And I thought, well, if this is important a time I should try and get there. But I'm, I have zero recollection of what happened next, whether I was found out, escorted from the property. I just know we wound up somewhere else much later, and there were more shenanigans. And perhaps ripping another door off and another mini bar of another unsuspecting stranger. But this is not the way that we want to remember you because you are a much better guy than that now. Is he? Is he? Oh, I don't know, Chuck.

I think you're already in heaven. I don't worry about you at all. All Chuck's go to heaven. Oh, man, what a kick. Well, Chuck, how long we've been talking? 51 minutes. Tom, as a producer, do you feel like people are going to be hanging on to every word? Do you want to leave them with something thoughtful and earnest

or a couple more tales guaranteed to get passed around and ultimately compromise what's left of our careers? This is your show. So if you are good, I'm good. If you need something, there I'm going back into producing. So I got a couple of lightning round questions I can give you guys. And I've designed them for both of you. Oh, wow.

Oh, poor Chuck. He has been waiting for his moment. Like, he's like, hey, you guys. Like, I know you both too. I have ideas. Chuck, please note that I tried to bring you in way more than Mike did. Mike just didn't even really give a shit. I'm wearing fenders.

That's what I'm famous for. These questions are for both of them. What Broadway show were you in that you gave up to go John Cusack your way to like Oh, you are going to laugh so hard. This is a good one. You were going to laugh so hard. I was in OCalcutta. Oh, oh God.

Well, okay, I'm glad that you didn't like share that. So. What do you mean? I just shared it right now. No, no, I mean, oh, I don't know if this is going to make it on air. No, no, none of it ever makes it on air. I always say, you know, me going to pee, that's not going to make it in air, you know. Got it.

Mike saying things, yeah. All right, well, let's do the lightning round and then I'm going to go have some lunch. Did you ever see O'Kalcutta? No. Do you know what it's about? Yeah, it's all naked people, isn't it? Yeah. No, it's not all naked people.

A lot of naked people. People get naked in it, but yeah, it's all of sketches like Jules Pfeiffer wrote one. John Lennon wrote one of the sketches in the things. believe it or not. Okay. People went to see naked people, though, for Ocalcate. It wasn't like, oh, I understand Jules'LIPA for Roparton. All right. Listen, every Japanese tourist in the 80s has seen me naked.

Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, me too, but that's online. It's behind a paywall. All right, Chuck. Moving along. All right. So here we go.

First question is for both of you, who would you consider to be? the biggest celebrity that appeared on no relation. Geez, after all these horrible things we've said about them, it's really rough to... Because obviously they were the stupidest people ever. You've already established that. Well, collectively, collectively. The rules were ambiguous. Deidreck Bader still has a show on ABC, so I would say he's somebody that comes to mind.

Doris Roberts blew up. Mary Fran, who was on the Bob Hope show, or Bob Newhart show, who developed a weird fixation on me, rest her soul. She did. What about, wasn't Brad Garrett on at some point? Oh, yeah, Brad Garrett was on. I mean, no, we weren't, we weren't scraping the barrel for celebrities. We were just scraping the barrel for celebrity intellect.

So. And again, look, I say this with respect to all the aforementioned. I don't think, I don't think it's fair to say that individually any one of these celebrities were what you call stupid. But I do believe you get a bunch of people together. And sometimes they rise to their highest collective trait and other times they sink. In this case, they sunk.

Well, no, or said another way, because we've talked about how controlling I am and how much of a producer I am, I beat these families. Like, you better be prepared. Like, this better not be obvious who the faker is. Yeah. So I probably leaned too hard.

into making sure that it would be a challenging puzzle as opposed to letting it unfold naturally. So that's on me, not the celebrity's intellect. Good. Next. So, Mike, if you didn't have the career that you have currently, whose career would you like to have? And likewise, Tom, if Mike didn't have his career, whose career do you think he could have nailed? Well, I mean, this will sound ridiculously pandering, but I think Tom's career, honestly, is one that I admire immensely, simply because it really has been a box of chocolates. He's done so many different things, and he's done them all well. And even though he's not yet a life coach officially, we all know that it's only a matter of time.

So I wrote down some stuff he said that I thought was poignant. Good. Good. That'll be $1,000. I'm going to work on it over the weekend. Broadly speaking, I'd say Tom or someone like Tom, just for the variety of it. As far as our industry goes, this too sounds incredibly self-serving. But I'm really happy with my career for a couple of reasons.

mostly the foundation that you and I get to run these days has turned out to be super gratifying in an unexpected way. But mostly, I don't have to do the things that like Doris Roberts and Brad Garrett and all the other people we mentioned, when you meet those people, when those people come face to face with their fans, then their fans are coming face to face with a character. And I would find it exhausting to try and maintain a public persona that's rooted in a character and not me. And so Dirty Jobs gave me an incredible opportunity to, for better or worse, be myself on the TV, warts and all. And that's made life after Dirty Jobs and all around Dirty Jobs really fun and a lot easier to navigate than say Whitney Houston at Clive Dave.

who doesn't know who to talk to. Everybody there wants something from the poor woman. The bodyguard is standing by to make sure the knucklehead from Cincinnati doesn't throw her in the pool. You know, I don't envy any of that. It's great fun to crash and be around, but I don't covet it. Just to be clear, Tom is the knucklehead from Cincinnati, everyone. Well, I was just wondering, like, are you done talking yet?

Because I think this was a question to both of us. It's my podcast, Tom. It's my podcast, and that's a direct quote from you. It's my podcast. It's the way I heard it, not with Tom Frank. Here's the thing, though, Mike. You're 100% in that you have always been you. There have been moments when you've had opportunities where I have challenged that

and been concerned or worried or said, maybe you should flex into sitcom or some of those other opportunities that have come to you, but you've always stayed true to yourself. And I think, again, the fact that, we have a mutual respect society probably comes from your willingness to be authentically you. I laugh, though, because when you were talking about dirty jobs, and I don't mean all you listeners, I can't tell you how many times I've been out with Mr. Roe where some glamorous, lovely thing has come up to us and announced in like it's the, he's just won the lotto that Mike is that

individual's hall pass. And I love Mike's significant others. So for all of you out there listening, just know that you're not Mike's hall pass. So please continue with your admiration, but just know that he is a locked down

solidly committed guy. It's almost equal parts weird and flattering to learn. that you are the vice, right? You are the vice. I live a fairly righteous life, the woman is saying. I raised my kids well. I work hard. I do all these things. But my husband and I have come to terms with the fact that if I ever run into you, we're going to rub uglies in the closest phone booth. What do you think of that? And I'm like, well, I don't. Do I have a say in this? I mean, I've been there when it's been the husband and the wife

who have come up and said it that's a different podcast and it's weird no no no i'm saying i'm saying that the wife says this in front of the husband well okay so a public service announcement to all you husbands out there your wife may run into mike row out in a bar but you are not going to encounter jessica beale at ralphs so for god's sake if that's the trade just rethink whatever negotiations you're doing in your marriage lower you your expectations. Because Tetska Biel doesn't go to Ralph's by herself, but Mike will maybe be in a Gigi's. You're doing it again.

You're producing my personal life. Mike, if Tom had a spirit animal, what would it be? A spirit animal. Probably a bird of prey. Oh. He probably a bird, yeah. Like a hawk or an eagle. Yes, something that flies above the matting crowd, something that is elevated,

something that can move here, there very, very, very quickly, and ultimately something that can kill with impunity. Tom? Mike would be a sloth because it would be an animal that appears to be disinterested in everyone and everything around it, but survives and thrives in spite of itself. Three-toed, I assume. Lazy-eyed.

Oh, wow. That is such a great answer. Solid. Okay, Chuck, we got any more here? No, that's it. I think we should go out on that one, Mike. Tell them what they've won. You've won nothing, gentle listener, except our enduring gratitude for suffering through another

one of these free associations with my dear friend Tom Frank. If you like the book, I got to tell you it's downloadable at Audible or wherever people do that. I promise the publisher. I would do that every single week. And a promise made, as you might recall from the epigram, is a debt unpaid. Having said that, you can listen to it for free back here next week as we unpack another imminently forgettable chapter. Tom, it's great to see you, old friend. You as well.

And you as well, Chuck, man. I think you've aged better than either one of us. So I don't know what your secret is. He's sitting in the dark. That's his secret. That's what it is really. And I pee a lot. I think that helps.

I heard that last week, but I'm glad that you've had that checked out. Yes. I have. I'm just peeing right now. Tom, do me a favor. When we hop off here, can you go to Apple and rate this podcast? I bet, but I'm out of wine and it's afternoon. Don't panic.

All right, folks, that was Tom Frank, my old friend. Sage of so many things. Do you want to plug anything, Tom? Is there anything? Yeah, no. Hey, if anybody's, all of you executives that are out there listening, I am, I am Tom at Ascend, A-S-C-E-N-D-C-E-C-M-E-D-C-M-com. You can find me at Tom at Ascend, coachme.

How are you not a life coach? How is this even possible? Honestly, I'm not sure who's, who's more wrong, you or Tom. Dude, all of my clients are like, like, exactly. And we work on hard stuff. They have lives. They have lives and you're coaching them. Well, how is that not a life coach?

You know, I will tell you that part of my rap the first time I talk to a client is that I on Zoom for the last year. But I'm like, if therapist is this hand that you can't see off screen and sports coach is this hand that you can't see off screen, I'm way over here by sports coach. I am not therapist because I am too blunt and too brutal to like, you know. That is true. How did you feel when you're. your CFO quit. I'm like, well, your CFO quit because you're doing a shitty job with how you're

spending your money. And so. Yeah. We're not going to have him back. Correct. Yeah. If you want pragmatic advice, talk to Tom. There's my pitch. Okay. Hey, thank you. Seriously. I really appreciate it. And if you're available sometime before the, we land this plane vis-a-vis the rest of the book and you're bored, pour some more wine and come back and fill us with your wisdom. Yeah. You know, what, loved it. It was great fun. Look forward to seeing, well, Chuck, hopefully I'll see you at some point in the future as well. But when I get, now that I'm back from Ohio, I'd love to see you. Oh, my God, Ohio. Yeah. Way to leave them with something optimistic and hopeful. I didn't know we were still on the podcast. No, but don't hang up. Don't hang up, though. I assume it because it has to, it takes a

minute to like digest. So just don't hang up after Mike signs off. Some woman threatened to cut me in like the Toledo hospital lobby last week because I asked. her to put on a mask. In a hospital. I mean, aren't you? In a hospital. Yeah,

seems reasonable. There are like 17 signs all over the place. And she's like, well, you looking at me like that? I was like, man, there are signs like immunosuppress patients,

you know, blah, I don't like the way you're looking at me. She's like, and then I just, you know, then I did sort of a full frontal Tom Frank on her.

And then she's like, well, maybe I'll just cut you. And I'm like, well, maybe, Did she know you were a life coach? I hope you gave her your card.

You should really call me. I think we could talk through some anger issues. I said, did you know that my good friend is a trade show model? There is. The plane has landed. We're back where we started. As the French say, tuch. All right.

So wait, can I just, I can walk away though, right? Chuck, I don't have to like sit here, right? You said, oh, you don't want to chat with us anymore? Is that it? Well, no, no, I just, you were saying. He's got a lot going on. Yeah. No, no, you were just saying that like, oh, don't hang up.

Yeah. Don't hang up. The bits and bites are still going. Yeah. He's got to put on another white shirt. You can hang out. I'm going to. Okay, wait.

So where in the hell was Charlie Manson in that chapter? What chapter are we doing? I thought we were doing the guy that started Intel. No. Chuck, you sent me the wrong fucking chapter. No. Yes. Did I?

That's hysterical. You covered like a pro. Are you kidding me? Oh my God, because I had like all, I was going to say, like, I had all these Bob Noyes quotes. I was going to play like two truths. Oh, that's why you said Bob Noyes before. I sent you the wrong chapter. Okay.

So you guys threw me out of suicide peg and then you sent me, I had no idea what you're, I thought I was literally doing the Intel chapter. So, sorry, Charlie. Oh, no, no, I would have given you better stuff. But like, no, I thought you're, and then when you said you're going to be better for this week, I thought, okay, you're going to play the Silicon Valley angle because I've done all these startups. So that's why you did the next chapter. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to get myself into that mindset and make the whole chapter work. I don't even know what happened to the Charlie Manson chapter.

God, Chuck and Wake, you're both exactly the same. I know. It's unbelievable. Didn't you send him the wrong one last time, too? maybe no no it doesn't matter i've read the book so it's not like but but i'm like when you brought up no the charlie manson i'm like i have no idea what he's talking about how did i i don't i just don't understand it's all good you know what we had a fun hour and all right i'm stopping the recording thank god man yeah i think you are now culpability

all right no i'm stopping the job i'm stopping the recording we're all good now now i mean it pay no attention to this how can i stop the recording would you You say funny things. You have to stop saying funny things. Mike, you have to lay on the plane. All right. This thing's definitely over. If you work in university maintenance, Granger considers you an MVP,

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