The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 237: The Cookie Rojas of Cable

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

Brian Kilmeade, the utility player of FOX News, chats with Mike about Lincoln and Douglass, Rogan and Spotify, Johns Hopkins and how we all want our lives back.

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This one is called the Cookie Rojas of Cable. Chuck, tell him who Cookie Rojas is. Cookie Rojas was a utility player who played for like six different Major League Baseball teams. I believe, but he played every single position, didn't start at every position, but he played all of the positions including pitcher and catcher, which is very rare. He was the guy you could go to, no matter what. He was always there.

He never said no. He was always willing to play any position. He just was so grateful for a chance to play the game he loved. He didn't care where he played or for whom or in what position. And for that reason, my guest today deserves to be compared to Cookie Rojas. It's Brian Kilmead, who's been over at Fox News now for a long time. I don't know what you think of Fox News. And with respect, I don't really care.

I go on Fox News a lot to promote my various projects. I used to have a show on CNN. I used to go on MSNBC, PBS, NPR. I'll go anywhere. I'm invited. And whenever I go over to Fox News, I try and do Brian's show because we always have such a good time. Brian was a stand-up comic once upon a time. And then he was a sports broadcaster.

And then he got into news by saying, hey, if you need anybody in any position to do anything anytime day or night, I'm your Huckleberry. So if somebody's filling in for Laura Ingram or Tucker Carlson, if you're, they need somebody on the five, or if they need somebody in the prime time slot, or whatever it is, Brian's standing by to do it. He's also, aside from just a crazed worker, bottomless workaholic, he's a surprisingly good writer. And he's written, how many books now? Six, I think, that he'll cop to. Could be more. I think he wrote a couple of sports books before he wrote the history books, but the history books are good. I've read two of them so far, and they're great. Well, the thing he does that I like is the same thing you and I tried to do with six degrees, to some success, if I don't say

so myself, making history interesting for people who would otherwise just not give it to him. He's done that with six different books. The one I want to talk to him about today is called the President and the Freedom Fighter. And it's a really great look at a really divided time in our country. Abraham Lincoln is president, Frederick Douglass, of course, a former slave. And the two of them come at the problem of slavery from very different sides, but wind up forming a friendship that is legendary and inspiring a nation to come together at a time when people simply didn't think the nation would ever come together again. And if that sounds remotely familiar at all right now, and I'm not suggesting we're on

the eve of a civil war, I certainly hope not. But we are a divided country. and there are a lot of things that come up in this conversation that I did not expect to come up. But in hindsight, Chuck, I'm not shocked that they did. I hope I didn't put my foot in it. You didn't kill the whole conversation, so I assume we're still on fairly safe ground. I think so, yeah. There was a brief moment when I wanted to just overturn the whole, you know, laptop and unplug everything.

But I fought that urge and we plowed through. I want to say something else about Brian Kilmead's work ethic. Because when he spoke with us, he was zooming in, as it were, from his office. And he literally just finished taping his new show, which I think comes on Saturdays at 8 on Fox, One Nation. He had just finished it. He's wearing a suit and tie and comes in to talk to the likes of us. And that's why he's the Cookie Rojas, because he's just doing everything. It's like, you need somebody on the five?

Yeah, I'm there. Oh, and that's the other thing is during this conversation, you're going to hear his email alert go off about 30 times. It's ridiculous. It's like ding dong, like you're in a clock shop. But he's got a lot going on. The headlines are crazy. And normally, as you all know, we try and avoid the headlines and we try and avoid politics. But there's something going on right now regarding misinformation. And there's a study that you're going to hear us talk about just out from Hopkins. And I really encourage all of you to look at it. In my view, it's critically important to understanding the hellscape we've all just lived through. I'm not going to walk you

through the details now, but you'll hear when we get to this study. It's been out now for a few days. And as of the recording of this podcast, none of the mainstream has picked it up. And it's alarming. And I've written about it on my Facebook page. And we get into it a little bit here as well. Because whatever the way forward is, it can't be through. suppressing information simply because it makes people uncomfortable. We've got to talk about everything and we've got to talk about it from every angle. And I don't care if that means sitting down with somebody from Fox or CNN or MSNBC or PBS. Anybody who's willing to talk candidly about a study like this, which comes from Johns Hopkins, by the way. Yeah, those right-wing

wackos. Yeah. We have to have the conversation. Did you really just say, that? You really went with right-wing wackos at Johns Hopkins. That's what you're going with. That was sarcasm. Why did I say it like that? It's almost as if I don't know how to talk, suddenly. You tried to say sarcastic, but you changed it to the noun at the last moment. Sarcasm. Yeah. You'll hear a lot of fun with the language in the next hour or so, as Brian and I attempt to solve the problems of the world in episode number 237, featuring Brian Kilmead, and his best-selling book, The President and the Freedom Fighter, in an episode called The Cookie Rojas of Cable.

What's up, guys? Can you hear me? Yeah, we hear you. I think it's here in black and white. I feel like you're like trapped in a Frank Capra movie. Are you on a security camera or something? That's hysterical. He's totally like on a security camera. Yeah.

Oh, I've been in that room before. Can you guys hear me? Can you hear us? Yes. Oh, you can. Okay, great. Oh. Well, we're good.

No, we have the basis for a conversation. This camera looks like... It's funny. I love it. Was that Allison? Hey, yeah, that's her. He has nothing without her. Have fun.

I'm sure the conversation will be great. I'll listen when it's posted. It better be. We're counting on it. All right, I just... Are you like standing in a corner looking at a security camera? What is happening? It's just my office.

Do you want me sit? Well, the camera is... It's in black and white. I'm just very curious as to buy you're in black and white. I don't know, man. You're kind of rocking the black and white. You look like a vagrant and a target casing the joint. I'm Chuck, by the way, and this is Ross. You know Mike, of course. Ross is our tech guy. Don't let Mike's nomiker of tech support fool you. Why would I be black and white? That's strange. I've never had that happen.

Is the camera built in or is it a USB camera with a connection? It's stuck on top. You know, if you want, I'll just go on my iPad. That's what I usually do. I just thought this was better quality. I mean, it's kind of interesting. But I don't know why it looks. way. I see color. Maybe your cones and rods are all. I see dead people. It's perfect.

For the conversation I want to have, we should have it in black and white. Okay. Sign of the times. Ross, can you make me black and white? Hey, Brian, is there any way to just get you in the center of the image? No, you're off to... The other center. I could also sit.

Oh, look at this. Yeah, you should sit down and be comfortable. We're going to talk for like four hours. four hours are you in an elevator what the hell is happening they gave us all those desks those electronic desks oh that's great i've done your show enough i know you like to stand and pace around right you like a mental during breaks i know it's pretty funny i'm only seeing half your face it's like you need to turn the camera which way pull that in yes yes yes yes there we go three minutes ago. This is gold.

Ross, if you're having... You don't have the rights to this. I don't have the right to anything. Are you okay now? Yeah. Chuck? Yeah, ma'am. All right, Ross. We'll circle back. You got it. Thanks, Ross. Sadios. Brian, look what I got.

Oh, you got the old one. The uncorrected proof. I'm sitting here with an almost copy of Brian's book. Chuck has the real thing, but I'm sitting here reading it. literally in every page has one of these things that just make it impossible to read as fast as I would like to read basically like every single page. How it doing? Why is it on every page? What are they

afraid of? They think I'm going to like start my own printing press and start selling copies of your book? What's the concern here? Well, we just did a background check before we sent it out. Normally it's not a problem and then, well, we had it pretty long. I don't want to go. It's your podcast, but your youth did not go well. It's pretty clear. So, yeah, I mean, you're talking about Why do we mail you that? You must have that a long time ago. In other words, you have a bad booker. You booked me three months after the book came out.

Somebody sent me this before Christmas, I guess. No, yeah, it came to the office and we just didn't know when we were going to have you. And it didn't happen until now, unfortunately. But it's kind of good because President's Day is coming up. Yeah, it's going to be great. How many times have I done your show, Brian? And how many shows are you doing right now while you're doing this podcast? I'm curious because you're checking multiple.

screens. You're dialed in. I know you got a lot going on, but... No, I just, I want to make sure you're not getting, I'm not getting clicked on while we're on. Because this is my word computer, which they set up from high quality podcasts. And you say it's in black and white. So I got a Saturday show. I taped that on Friday. And if anything happens, like Tom Brady's never going to retire, so that won't be an issue. So if anything happens, I'll go redo the show right by my house. I just got that. So I left radio had 20 minutes and we finished right at 2 o'clock. So the second time we've done it and they said, Brian, it's 159 run up and we got that black and white podcast that we have to do on your camera

with Mike Rowe. So I went up and did it right away. I didn't know you'd be so condescending. I didn't know you'd be upset. You know how condescending I am when I'm on your shows. How condescending did you think I was going to be on my own? Well, I'm just going to fire my entire staff. My agents for booking this, my manager, should I hire one? Fired. My publicist, should I need one? They're all done. I shouldn't do it.

I don't know what's worse for my career. You or gut felt you? I go on there. I get insulted for at least an hour. Yeah. I doubt that I'll insult you, but full disclosure, I have no idea exactly where this conversation's going to go. All I said to Chuck was, look, nobody can fill time like Kill Meade.

He's not capable of saying, no, if you put him in a corner. He has my personal phone number. I know this because I get text every. couple of weeks saying, what about radio? What about this show? What about that show? So I figure he owes me a solid. So he's going to say yes. We didn't know it was going to be black and white. We didn't know, and we still don't know how much time you're able to carve out. I mean, this is the cookie rojas of broadcasters, folks. The guy is busy. You know who cookie Rojas is, Brian? Didn't he wear glasses? In his later years, yes. Right. He might wear glasses now. He was a baseball player. He's down there in

Miami. One of the greatest utility players of all time. He played literally every single position for nearly 20 years in the pros. Well, I watched his rivalry with the Yankees. I mean, when the Yankees were bad for 20 years, and then all of a sudden they started emerging, so did the Royals. And they had some of the best games ever. That was before they knew what steroids were. So you actually saw human beings playing sports, you know, who look like you and men. And I'm like, Wait a second, I can relate to them. And then for 25 years, they did all types of obscene drugs and had about of experiences. But that's when the Yankees, the biggest guy was Chris Chambliss.

Yeah. And fat guys played first. Right. Boog Powell in Baltimore. Boog Pal. The guy was like 260 pounds. He ran at speeds approaching three miles an hour. He could hit the ball as far as you can imagine.

It just didn't matter. There was no team speed back then. It was just Stenturian. force. How much time do you have? How much time do you need? I don't know. It depends on how interesting. Let's start there. How interesting are you going to be? Scale of one at ten. I find myself fascinating. How long will we find you? Oh, I don't care. I don't care with how you find me. I find myself. And I think that's important. Full disclosure. I definitely want to talk about this partial book that you sent me because from what I've read so far, we could do that, but we could

also you know history. I was doing those books because I thought some political people would be interested in history. It made sense. And I saw Bill O'Reilly kind of urged me to do it. But I had no idea it was going to be in the news. I had no idea. History would be a fighting word. They were actually fighting for American history with other Americans. So this will come up anyway, whether I gave you a bad book or not. So what does it feel like? This is like your sixth or seventh book. It's been on the New York Times list from the week it came out. You are in the middle of a couple of different shows, all going on at the same time, basically. And you've got a front row seat to what feels like one of the most important conversations in the 21st century.

Is there any pressure with that, or is it just pure fun at this point? That's a great question, because I know you could totally appreciate that question, because you were in the same situation. I watch you when you come in, you're an entrepreneur. You're like, yeah, I'm micro, I'm not working for anyone. I'm working for myself. and if I'm going to do a show and a series, I'm going to own it. With that comes responsibility.

I get that. W-9s and got to get overheads. You got to pay rents. You got to pay the phone bill. I understand that. But you reach the point in your career where you're not looking for employers. You're looking to own. To me, I can't believe, because I didn't know you then, that I got the job, that I held the job,

through all the craziness that's happened over the last 25 years. It's been like 20 jobs. And now all of a sudden they said, yeah, you don't have to just be the sports guy. You can be the news game. But when things got serious, they used to pull us off the air. Oh, yeah, we're going to get John Scott or Shepard Smith in. Now I could be the news guy. Things blow up.

We go to a couple of wars. We have some controversial elections. And then they say, hey, we need you to be a guest on some shows. They go, great. Then they say, Tucker's out. He thinks she would be a good filling. I go, excuse me, this is Brian Kilmead. Felt like Bill Belichick got the wrong text.

And then they say, hey, Laura Ingraham can fill in here. I go, I can't believe it. And John Roberts goes, hey, Brian, you. have time at two. So I never took a day for granted, but like once you come to this gym, anything can happen. You can be playing soccer, you can be playing dodgeball, you could be doing gymnastics. And the thing is, and this is how narrow-minded and how boring am to hang out with, this is my hobby and my job. Like, I love this stuff. I need to escape once in a while, all right. But besides working out, no one wants me in their beer league, no wants to play darts with me.

No one wants me in Bible study. I ask. So this is my job, my life. And when I come out of here, America is so zoned in. Then when I come out of here, they're like, can you believe what's going on with this vaccine? Did these masks work? Can I go to a bar?

You know, what's going on? Now, Pfeu's talked to me about the Mets and Yankees and Super Bowls cover 25 of them. Now all they do is talk about politics. Everyone's involved. So I never escape. And now this job, with all the management changes and all the controversies,

I was able to hold on to it and when people go, you do a lot, I'm like, why wouldn't I? Because when they stop asking, that's when there's no net in our business. There's no like, okay, I left Fox. Let me go to this other syndicate show. No, no, you might not work again. So I'll stay here as long as I can

and the more they ask me to do, great. So when I'm up for another contract, it usually goes well because I'm not looking to get their last dollar and I always thought they treated me very fairly. How many shows am I doing as many as they ask that I can do without getting divorced? And by the way, happily married, three kids, Massapequa, as I recall.

Very good memory, Massapequa. Homer the Baldwin, Seinfeld, Jessica Hahn. So you remind me of a crab fisherman in 2003 back up on the Bering Sea. And in those days, they hadn't passed a thing called the Crab Rationalization Act, which meant when the season started, no one knew when it was going to end. So they didn't have a quota agreed to prior to the season like they do today. They simply kept that information to themselves, Fish and Game did. And then the crabbers went out not knowing when the season would end

because they had no way of knowing when the fleet wide quota would be hit. Consequently, they ran a marathon like it was a sprint. And Chuck, that's what Brian does. Every time I go to Fox, it doesn't matter what show I'm doing. I went there not long ago to promote how America works. And you should see this guy. He literally runs down the hallways from this chair to that chair. Poor Allison is in his wake.

Somebody's putting makeup on him. Then he's doing this and that. So it's just a long way of saying, first of all, I sympathize. And secondly, in my view, you're doing it exactly right. You're playing the cards you get. And somewhere in the mix of all of that, you're writing books. So let's start with that. How much of this are you physically really writing yourself?

How much of the research are you doing? And respectfully, how much do you truly care about the topic at hand? More than ever, I mean, when I was looking to escape, when I was doing sports, I've lost the love of sports because it was a job. I really felt like, man, do I really have to cover this game besides the fights? The fights are big things when Holyfield is fighting ball. When you're covering it, you feel great. Super Bowls, you feel it.

But after that, I was like, I need a break. I used to read history. And I used to read it. It was helping me out so much with news because it gave me depth to stories. And I said, well, I was fascinated with the Revolutionary War, and I was fascinated with that spy story, because when I could actually see something, I used to play soccer from the time I was five until I was 22, 300 days a year.

And almost every big tournament was in, Virginia. And I would go and see these places that were in Virginia and I was fascinated. Wait, James Madison was here. Jefferson actually walked on this stairs. Washington and Mount Vernon endlessly fascinated with that. That's the room he died in. And people used to laugh. Like, wow, you like history? Who likes history? And I said, okay, that's going to be my hobby. But when I would close these books, these Dave McCullough books on Truman, on John Adams, I would feel like I lost a relative. That's how great a writers they were. And then the one, day I picked up Truman's book that he wrote, but not about himself. He wrote about historical figures,

and it was like 25 of them. But he wrote about what they meant to him and what they were like his people. So he wrote Thomas Jefferson, 6'3 with freckles. He had curly hair, and he used to get up in the morning and ride his horse as fast as he can. That was his exercise. And then George Washington, what he was fascinated about him is he always felt a little inferior to the other what we call now founding fathers. He never had that great education. And he had the ten, that he was always self-conscious about. Really? He always felt he has a proof thing to his older brother. He go, these are human

beings. They're not statues. They're not Ulysses and Zeus. They're not Greek gods. They're real people who did extraordinary things that allowed me to do what I'm doing now. When I read the book by it, I encourage you to do it, you'll get it through within a day. They humanize these people

to a point where I go, I have to learn more about them. When Bill O'Reilly started writing history books, I thought to myself, wow, this is probably not going to be great. I know these stories are ready, but I got to interview him, so he's going to ask me questions. He never liked me. So all he needs is if I ask him a bad question, one of the great things about Bill Riley. When he said, killing Jesus.

Yeah, I was going to say, did he ever like anybody? No, he liked me. He still does. He wrote killing Jesus. He'll never forget to come out to me. He goes, I got new stuff in here. I go, you got new stuff by Jesus? This is unbelievable.

So I'm like, have you told the Pope? So he might be interested. We got new stuff. Stone, he didn't roll it back. himself. He had help. Yeah, it's a Fox News exclusive. This is just in. Jesus, new information. He didn't just have a loinclose. He had a tank top. And we have proof. So, I know I'm going to hell now. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over

the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves a million times over by helping countless employers get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before. And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most qualified candidates first. This is a huge time saver, hours and hours of save time. And it helps people like me find the people who can function in a non-traditional work environment like microworks. In other words, ZipRecruiter works for me, and they'll probably work for you too.

Post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash row. And watch what happens. Odds are you'll find a human resource that just happens to be a great fit for your company in 24 hours or less. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hire. I read the Bill O'Reilly book that they were fantastic

about like killing Lincoln and everything. And I said, Bill, I've been looking at this story for 20 years. And he said, what is it? And he lives about 10 miles from me. He's also Long Island. And he says, it's George Washington spies. And he goes, what are you talking about?

I go, you know National Treasure? It's really happened. These people died without any fame acclaim. It was top secret until the 1930s. Then in comes to the Depression in the World War, no one ever gave it. And I showed him the news. I looked up the New York Times story on microfilm, got a copy. And a little thing in the New York Times says, local historian makes major find. He found the last spy in 1930. So I got chills of my spine. And I could walk around and I could see the places that they walked. The fame they never got to, they're totally accessible.

these great people for maybe $20,000 a year keeping this story alive. So I told them about it. He goes, Brian, I live there. I knew nothing about it. I went to school there. Do it. And he helped me through it. Or else I never would have thought in a million years I could ever write a history book.

I did the sports books. The games do count. And it's how you play the game. And I was done after that. And the history books, and I'm not going to write my biography, I didn't really think there was going to be anything more than that. But I thought this would be a great movie when I saw. the Patriot wasn't that good.

This is a better story. And I saw National Treasure, which was good, but I couldn't understand a word Nicholas Cage was saying. I never have. And maybe it's the Elvis thing. And I thought this would be a better book. And then when I finally did it, they said, actually Jerry Brutcomer said,

if you want to do a movie, even if it sells one copy, write a book. So you could always point to it. I said, all right. So I wrote a book. We didn't do the movie. The turn came out at the same time. But it sold over a million copies. and I did it with Don Yeager, who was a sports guy, who I met in sports, who urged me to do it, and he wanted to break away.

So because of this electronic age, we write a chapter, write a summary, send it back and forth, send it back and forth. Then we have this great editor of Brea Sanford who understood my voice and how I wanted to say it. And now I got this pretty good system. Here's what I do. So I'm working on another concept now, but I'll research for about six months, going back and forth, go to the actual. sites. I mirror it with Fox Nation. Fox Nation gave me the series What Made America Great. So I show up in Texas to do the Alamo, and I'm getting to know everybody. They're telling me the story. I'm saying, what's different about this? That helps my 30-minute piece. And then I come back and I say, well,

what's new about it? Well, everyone knows out the Alamo, but you don't know what happened after. Battle of San Jacinto lasted 17 minutes. I get to know the biographers. I put them on television. I work with them to get new stuff. They send me up to these libraries to get original work. And then I'm able to write the summaries. First thing I do is I talk the whole thing through. Then they say, here's the chapters. I send the chapters back and forth. They knocked six chapters off.

Then I write the summaries. They go back and forth. And then I expand it and I work in with a historian. When I start every chapter is with four or five quotes. And I build out the chapter. It's choppy as hell. And then I come back in and in comes my people. They come in, they work with it.

But what they do is they record the whole conversation. and I go back to my original points when I was hot in all the research. And I go, I forgot about that. That's what I meant. Or they say, Brian, what you just said is not true. We've been unable to verify it. So that's my system. And what I love doing is telling a bunch of smart people who don't care about history,

I get them to care about history. And I do those presentations. And I originally thought about doing with you is I mix in the sports stuff to inspire people because they all failed in sports. And then they learn from that failure to be successful in what's, next and then I weave in our history and I show the human side of them that they had frailties and tell them that America's history wasn't perfect but the big that's great about us is that we try to be and we're old and harshest critic and then I

give them the examples and I do it through conversation and not only do I have a chance to get on stage again because I used to do stand-up I get the unscriptedness which I love and I actually feel like I'm telling stories that make a difference because of 1619 and everything else Yeah. Everything about your process is interesting, but there's one component to it, in my opinion, that's actually brilliant. And you know I don't use that word a lot, especially when you and I are chatting, but you figured something out. Maybe you Forrest Gumped your way into it, or maybe not, but it's something very, very similar that happened to me too. And that is, you figured out how to get paid for doing research and how to turn the business of doing research into the business of doing research into. an actual television show. Right? Dude.

I get it verbally. Yes, you are turning the business of, like, the wet work of research and writing into an actual show on Fox Nation. And so that's the secret to Cookie Rojas's success. He doesn't care what position he's playing. He always has his eye on the next one. And that's what I feel like your books have done. They've become like the grout in the wall of Kilmead.

And so I really don't know if anything you're doing that actually doesn't come back to one of the books that you've written. I think that's pretty smart. Also, I want to say, too, that I don't really understand why history is such a hard sell in general. My dad taught it. And my old boss at the Discovery Channel, Clark Bunting, told me years ago, if you find a way to make history relevant. In other words, do a show about history for people who don't like history, then the world is your oyster.

You're this close to doing it, man. Yeah, I would love to make one of them a movie with my other goal and to keep our story alive. And when I hear, like I did stuff at the Hermitage and I got friendly with them, I went on their board afterwards. They just was so friendly to me, the Andrew Jackson home, when they told me that traffic picked up after your book came out. and that I did the special and that aired on the channel

and they said they're getting more people through the door which means there's more admission fees which means they can continue to expand even though it's right outside Nashville and you think it would be a great place that to me is making an impact even though I don't make anything financially off that also I find historians that close people they're not used to do when we do talk I get them out of their shell a little bit I create a friendship with them

and they're so smart and they help me out and they feel as though I appreciate them by putting them on television. So I feel like it's just a win-win. As opposed to what I used to walk into the Yankee locker room, and Paul O'Neill just wants you to die, you know? And David Wells, who I'm kind of friendly with, is convinced I'm a lunatic and idiot, and every question I ever asked was dumb,

as opposed to walking into a women's soccer or a men's soccer or a men's lacrosse, where they're happy to see you. They're like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm getting publicity, even though they're the best of what they do. So with history, I feel like when I was, walk into their house, the Monticello's, the Hermitage, the Mount Vernon, they're like, I can't believe you're here. And I go, great, I can't believe you're happy. I'm here. So it just

feels like everybody wins. Yeah. That's one thing I had about sports, these superstars who really, they don't need you. I'm just trying to make sure. I just got a call coming in. Look at you. You're multitasking. It's breaking news right now. What's happening? Well, I just got a text message from Megan Albano who handles the five. And if she's texting me at 2.30 usually means she needs me on the five, but she doesn't. All right, let's change topics a little bit. What's going on in Fox right now is kind of fascinating. That text you just got is kind of fascinating. You guys are making this up as you go along. You're 24-7, big shows, constantly happening. If you had to work on the five for the rest of your life or fill in for Laura Ingram, which would you choose?

Steady, whatever's steady. I want something I can go to. 6 to 9, the Fox and Friends in the morning, it's unscripted, I like it, I just don't sleep enough, and I'll die young. I'll leave at least 15 years in the locker room. There's no doubt about it. But anything you go to steady, and then you build off that, stuff you can count on. The five is cool, but my goal is to make the show better. It's different, and I think you can appreciate this, if it's just on you to make the show, as opposed to play tennis or soccer? Soccer, we got to win.

If you need me to play defense, I'll play defense. Do you need me to go be offensive midfielder on this team? I'll do that. But tennis, I got to find a way to beat you. I feel like when I do my own show, I got to find a way to win. And I feel like when I'm on the five, by the way, that show is rating through the roof. It's the number one show. It beats Tucker now.

Number one show on all of television, the impossible hour that they said was impossible to get ratings at because people are traveling. Why is it working, Brian? Why is that show doing what it's doing at this point? Well, I'd be curious. my opinion, what's yours, from a viewer perspective, and you know all the people on it? It has something to do with cheers. It has something to do with going into a place where everybody knows your name, but you might not find yourself agreeing with everybody. There's a level of transparency that I would give Greg a lot of credit for. He's very good at taking the piss out

of the process. He's kind of relentless at it. All those different characters. You know, Dana is a character, but she's also a real person. Likewise, Greg, likewise Geraldo, likewise you, likewise Judge Jeanine, who's settling right in. These are all very distinct people with very distinct points of view. But when they come together, I guess the simplest way to say it is, I think the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And that's when you have a winner.

I think you're right. I think number one is, I guess the mix and the lack of ego. They're all confident, but there's no ego. maniacs. They all know their frailties. They hung out, but they haven't overhung out where they're sick of each other. The other thing is, and Mike, this is why you would do so well if you had a show, or you do have a show on FBN, but if you have a nightly show here, is that you yourself. The one thing about Fox that Roger Ailes started, that he wrote the book, You or the Message, whoever you are, be that same person on television. For better or for worse, we're the same people. Jesse's the same way.

Greg is the same exact way. I mean, he was literally now with the new configurational. I see him nine times a day now. He's the same exact way, very hardworking, funny, sarcastic, just like on television. Dana is exactly the same way. Dana is so curious about everything, non-judgmental, but curious about everything. So you got the right mix. I also would say Harold Ford and Araldo are interesting in that they're not angry. Like, they disagree subtly, but they're all in the camp of America is a pretty cool place.

You don't have that anger that it gets on MSNBC and CNN. of, oh my God, can you believe it? You have, I would have voted for Biden over Trump, sure. But I see a lot of problems. And I noticed Harold Ford was doing that on MSNBC on Scarborough. We're at the same time. But a few times I'd go, wow, Harold, I would get news bulletins. Harold Ford unhappy with President Obama.

You know, so I think that they mix it up a little. They all like each other. And Geraldo is a contrarian, too, with all his experience. So I think that's a good mix. And Judge Janine, you got the legal seat. everything happens. Something's always happened legally where you go, Judge, what is that? What is, is that legal? Is that allowed? Joe Rogan, can he be sidelined? What is the deal? Can the GoFundMe page be really stopped from the Canadian truckers? Judge, what do you think?

So it's always good to have a lawyer on. I just think it's a good mix. Can we talk about Rogan? For a minute? I wrote something on my Facebook page just a couple of days ago. I think all eyes are on Spotify, honestly. I think we're in a really remarkable moment right now. And I don't know if you've seen the latest reports that have come out, one from Hopkins, and then one just last night, I was reading about it, and the breathtaking lack of effectiveness that now seems to be defining these lockdowns. I feel like we're coming into a really interesting inflection point, and the fact that Rogan has an audience that with respect is far larger than any cable news show, and he's being told not to have on credentialed doctors.

I think we're seeing something certainly unlike anything I've seen in my life, and it's happening in real time right in front of us. And again, you've got a front row seat to it. Mike, it has been on radio. I did the radio. I always had knock it down to the three big stories. The Hopkins study that was not covered, get this, Johns Hopkins, that fly-by-night organization that leads to the left of Mike Bloomberg writes a billion dollar check to a day. seriously. So they come up with a study two weeks ago that says natural immunity is as good if not better, good or not better than the vaccine, the durability. You know how they did it? Dr. McCarrey says, we don't deserve a Nobel Peace Prize for this. He said what we did is we found

people that have had the virus over the last two and a half years and we tested their antibodies and they're equal if not better than the vaccine. But we're not supposed to count natural immunity. Why? Because the government tells us Anthony Fauci doesn't handle it. We're not supposed to do that really I'm an adult I'm looking at a doctor I'm seeing Hopkins why can't I count natural immunity but fire the teachers fire the firefighters fire the cops fire them all or the army men and women get rid of the Marines get rid of the Navy SEALs because they're going with national immunity or they don't want to get the vaccine then I see this study come up that you just referred to that

said lockdowns are totally ineffective that helped lessen the death rate point two percent excuse me skip whoa that is the biggest story unless the Russians invade Ukraine, it is the biggest story in the country. And NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, nobody ran it. It would affect everybody's life. It'll open up that restaurant. I'll get the kids back in school. Get the masks off my daughter at college right now, both of them.

Mass, double-vaxed, boosted, or they can't go to school. So all this stuff, all this stuff is affected. And yet no one's covering the story. And it's Hopkins. And yet Denmark, the UK, Sweden, all said, forget everything. Denver, the city of Denver, we're done with all this stuff. The governor of Colorado, same thing. Wisconsin looking at the same thing.

We know what Florida did. We know how Texas feels. And Virginia, well, these liberal cities are pushing back. But we don't have the president saying that. They are looking to still, I don't have the answer, wrap their arms around restrictions. that hurt the economy, hurt our mental health, our emotional health, have killed relationships, stop people from going to a friend of mine's dad just died of COVID.

Through the whole process, he could not visit him one time, two years after, whatever he said, I'll wear whatever you want, N95s, we know N95 work, could not visit him, died on his own again. So the funerals that we missed, the weddings that we didn't have, the relationship to they're now destroyed, the careers that are now on hold for no reason, and they still, will not lift these restrictions. Yes, I saw this study. Well, the thing that worries me, this is not typically a political podcast. You know I have opinions. I try and argue from the middle when I argue, but I've just never lived through anything like this. And let's make a prediction. This is a Friday in real time, around 1140 in the morning here on the West Coast, and I'm talking to you. This podcast

will go up early next week. I really wonder if the studies that we're talking about are going to somehow take hold over the weekend and if the fat part of the bat, the big part of the population is going to be up to speed come Tuesday. I agree with everything you said,

but the big topic is this. A week ago, if we're having this exact conversation on this podcast, they would be calling for my head because the idea, the idea, The idea that a source might say that lockdowns were ineffective would be deemed misinformation. The delicious thing and the fascinating thing and the somewhat scary thing about what's happening right now is the source of that report is quite possibly the most respected medical organization on the planet. Now, what are you going to do?

The cognitive dissonance is ripe and heavy on the vine. Can they ignore the story indefinitely? I don't think so. You know, I watch all the Sunday shows, tape them all, because I want to get a perspective, a long view. I want to get out of the play-by-play. I want to get into the Weekend Review. And Dr. Scott Gottlieb, as always, he's led the way a little bit.

You know, he's not anti-Trump. He's not pro-Biden or anti-Biden. He says fraud out, he's on the board of Pfizer. And he's the one who came out and said, cloth masks do not work. Paper masks don't work. That upset a lot of people. But it's true. so we should not be wearing masks unless it's an N95.

They told us wear a mask because we care about each other. I care about Chuck and Mike, and we're in the same room. So if I'm not selfish, I wear a mask. Well, it turns out I'm not protecting anybody. I'm making you guys feel good about yourselves. That's it. I want to feel good about your seat. You want to feel good.

You want to feel secure. I'm not making you secure. And then they said this. The N95 mask is the only way for you to stay safe. So Mike, Chuck, if you guys have underlying conditions, you have MS and you have diabetes. and you choose not to wear an N95 mask, that's all on you. That's it.

It should be over right there. The mask should be done. The natural immunity, if you've had it, do you buy it as good as vaccinated? That should be done. And then we should be able to choose whether we want to be vaccinated or not, because if I'm not vaccinated and I get this virus and I die, it is on me. That's it.

The same way I have a friend of mine that gets dropped out of helicopters onto mountains that don't have trails. I think that is crazy, but he's allowed to do it. All I want to do is go to Del Frisco's and get a salad, and I don't have a vaccine card, and that, to me, is living on the edge and being selfish. So I hope, I hope that more people do it. This is what gives me hope, Michael,

is that Bill Moore is speaking up, and he's sounding like us. He is totally outraged and incensed, that the Democratic Party, because I don't know many Republicans, are living the life they're living, their view on crime, their view on the mass, what they did to Barry Weiss for coming out and saying, I'm done with it, I did it, and it didn't help. Barry Weiss was an editor at the New York Times who had to leave because he wasn't liberal enough and went to substack. That gives me hope. When I see Democrats doing it, and then I hope that Democrats have kids,

and they see a third grader who's not the same kid anymore, They see a first grader that doesn't know their ABCs, and they say, enough. This is the wrong message. These kids are being tortured. They're counting on us to get it right. And we got off to a bad start. There's no excuse anymore. So my hope is that there's more than Hopkins that comes out.

And Sunday's going to be the key. When Margaret Brennan and Chuck Todd sit down, I don't know how they don't have their own families and their own careers and their own friends outside the business to worry about. Right. The federal government is not going to close America's skills gap. They have an important role to play for sure, but if we're serious about reinvigorating the skilled trades on a national level,

we need more organizations like Skills USA, making a real difference on a local level. These guys have been around since 1965, and today they are relevant like never before. with hundreds of chapters in schools all over the country and hundreds of thousands of students participating and competing every year. Nobody is doing more to train the next generation of skilled workers than Skills USA. And I'm encouraging you to at least consider being a part of this movement.

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You can start a chapter in your own town. Or you can just go to their website and see the impact for yourself. And see, too, how easy it is to get involved. Thousands of kids are being introduced to the trades in a way that's absolutely positively moving. the needle. The goal is a million members by 2030. I think it's doable. I'm doing what I can to help them. Learn more at skillsusa.org slash mic. That's skillsusa.org slash mic. I'm talking skills, U.S. Skills, U.S.S. Skills USA. I don't know where it tips, but it has to. And it seems like if we wait for the airlines to decide when it's okay to wear a mask or not wear a mask,

if we wait for the airlines to let us decide, or if we wait for public health officials, or if we wait for our elected leaders to decide when the masks come off, then that's category one. But what if they don't? What if they simply never decide it? Now... Then we have Ottawa, don't we? Don't we have Ottawa? We got Ottawa. That's what I mean. You can see the cracks happening here, here, and there. But for the last two years, the question I just posed was always esoteric because there was never a Hopkins standing right there going, wait a second, wait. We've got new information. And this is, it's Hopkins, right? So maybe that's the thing. Maybe that's the thing that finally allowed, I mean, I think Godfelt said it the other night, you can't arrest everybody. What happens if everybody takes their mask off? What happens? Well, the thing is, my guys got to help you there because I don't want to get it. If you do take your mask off, please do with the mayor of the Los Angeles state.

Hold your breath. That's all I ask. Just hold your breath. America, you're all watching Micro right now. Hold your breath until you get really dizzy and pass out. And then we're going to run from you. So if at the Super Bowl, everybody at one point, 85,000 people who spend 60,000 per ticket to, watch that game. If they all take their masks off, they got to wear it, what is it going to happen?

Right. What's going to happen? Remember, we're watching Michigan play Ohio State, and there's 110,000 people in the stands, and they're all shirtless, breathing on each other, drunk, having a great time, yet we're looking at China with nobody in the stands, no family's allowed to attend, athletes are isolated, different countries are handling it different ways. I like to handle it the right way. You explain to me what the risks are, I'll make my own decision, you know what, Mike, I might call you up and say, you know, when you come into studio, you don't have to wear a mask and you don't have to be vaccinated. And you might say to me, you mind, if that's going to be the case, I don't feel secure, I'm going to stay and do this for my home studio. And I would say, okay, I'm not going to judge you. You made a choice and I made a choice.

I want to get back to the point where we're making choices. I've been obsessed lately with that old Hans Christian Anderson tale, the emperor's new clothes. You know, it starts with the kid. You got the naked emperor going down the street. And it takes a kid to say, I don't see any clothes. I think he's naked. And then you get people starting to nod their heads and then pretty soon, okay. So that's what the last couple of years have felt like to me in a lot of different ways. We've been asked to ignore what seems self-evident.

The border doesn't look secure. We're told it's secure, but that's a lot of people I see coming over. And we're told that Afghanistan was a success. but gosh, it sure looks like people are falling out of a plane. And we're told... The economy's going great. Right, right, right. All that stuff, that's politics and that's spin.

But this, this feels different to me. To be perfectly clear, for God's sakes, I'm not trying to incite a resurrection or a insurrection or civil disobedience. But I do wonder at some point if our leaders and our public health officials, don't say we're done, then who does? I like to build on that. And it goes back to you, Joe Rogan point. All he's doing is questioning smart people about their opinions.

He's got a fundamental knowledge of a lot of things from UFC to martial arts in general to a guy knows about science and physics. And he's well read. He doesn't pretend to be an expert, but man, he's a lot smarter than he lets on. And he wants to let these people talk. And when they talk and they have opinions, different opinions on the government, it's time for the government to crack down. We can't ask questions now of different people.

Joe Rogue is not doing a three-hour monologue. He's asking questions of different people. And if you look at his roster, I don't know nine-tenths of them. I didn't know Dr. Malone before, but I go, yeah, let me click on this. It's about the pandemic. Maybe it'll help me a little bit. And I click on it. And I go, okay.

Next thing you know, it's the biggest story because he's being totally irresponsible. Meanwhile, he does shots on the air and smoke cigars. He's having the best time ever. But having said that, we've got to get back to personal decisions. and I'm going to say this. I'm able to work every day. I know you were affected, right? As successful as you are,

how can you go down and do your show? Your shows. I mean, you can do voiceovers and stuff, but your shows need you and interact with people. I was able to go to work every single day. But so many people I knew weren't. Salespeople weren't doing it. No one was at work.

My dry cleaner, the place is empty because no one's going to work. They're not dressing up. I'm seeing the ripple effect, and I see a bunch of government workers that get paid every day regardless, and they're making all these decisions. Doctors are getting paid.

The medical doctors, the experts in Washington are getting paid. So I know how lucky I am. But I'm looking around and going, guys, why are we so calm? The economy is stopped. People aren't working. These are not the same people. I mean, in particular, my son's at the XFL. He's rising up in the ranks.

They put five games together. They're making history. They spout to sign a brand new deal. And all of a sudden he goes to work, they go, we have no money for one more week without fans, you're all fired. you're all fired. And then how's he supposed to get a job? When nobody's playing sports, he's just out of college.

The league that he was in is folded. So no one has to tell me that there's a other price to pay, let alone the people that are ill from this, for them to take their time and to gradually get back because they're being responsible. They don't take it emotional. They don't take in physical. They don't take in psychological damage that's being done,

let alone the people that couldn't work out. don't have home gyms. Here's the thing I'm worried about. You mentioned before, it's about personal responsibility, right? But look at Virginia. There's sort of a Stockholm syndrome thing going on there, where the government comes in and the government says, okay, you know what? It's over.

No more masks and everything. But the people are like concerned. They're like, no, we've been wearing these masks. We're still concerned about it. We need to continue to wear these masks. And we're going to now go against what the government is saying. It's like they switched places. And you know what?

Chuck, it's true. There's a lot of people there are totally freaked out. There's a lot of good people that think they're going to die right away. You know, some have underlying conditions. I get it. And some parents, like, I'm a bad parent. I'm not going to send my kid into school where some other asymptomatic kid could breathe on him or her and bring this virus back. And maybe you live with a grandparent. I mean, that's the different decisions you've got to make. But you know what you do to people like that? You don't ice out the kid that doesn't want to wear a mask. And you don't humiliate the kid that does. or the parent, you talk to them. But instead, you make these autocratic rules from up high. You never have a say in them, and that's why people got angry. There is going to be a period of adjustment. Let people work it out. Same thing. Imagine me of what it's like in war, when people were tied to a degree,

when people like, you know, imagine in Afghanistan perpetual and Iraq perpetual, where they're like, wait a second. I walk down the street and I don't need permission from a soldier. I could actually open up a stand and I could sell goods when they're, soldiers used to say when they went into Iraq and people say, how do I make money? He's like, really? I got to tell you how to make money? Because Saddam had to take care of everything, to a degree, it's going to be the same thing. I'll tell you what would be a disaster, Chuck, is if the government said wearing masks is now illegal. You can't do it, right? That would be

extraordinary. And nobody would want that to happen. What we're trying to get to is to say, look, this is going to be a very, very difficult re-entry for a lot of people who have fallen deeply in love with the protocols, who really are responsible people but want to be taken care of because they're convinced that the danger is clear and present and existential. I get all that, but nobody wants to say you're not allowed to wear a mask. The next step has to be masks are optional. And here's what gives me a little bit of hope. I'm not trying to push this inordinately in one direction or the other. You want your life back. You want your life back, but you don't want to feel like one of the adults at the parade in the Emperor's

new clothes who is afraid to say the dude's naked. You don't want to be standing there forever waiting to get permission from a child in order to state that which is self-evident. So I go into this diner yesterday to meet my buddy. There's nobody at the hostess stand. So I just walk straight back. I see him. He's sitting right in a booth. And a woman starts screaming, sir, sir, sir, sir. And I stop and I walked back and she said, I need to see your vaccination card. And I said, okay. And I showed it to her. And she said, thank you. And then I walked over to sit down. And she said, sir, can you please put your mask on as you walk to the booth? And for the first time during this whole thing, for the last two years, I looked at the woman and I said, you know, I can't do that. And there was like a three second pause. And she said, I understand. And went,

back to work and I went and sat down with my friend and we had lunch. I didn't think much of it at the time, but I've been thinking about it today because how many needless conflicts, how many uncomfortable moments have happened over the last two years between well-intended people who mean no harm but are put in this place of watching the naked emperor and being forbidden from saying the obvious thing. Mike, I have hockey tickets, as you know. I'm a Kings fan. I love hockey.

I go there all the time. They actually have people at crypto.com stadium, formerly Staples Center, that hold up a round sign that says you must be wearing your mask at all times. And if you take it down and you take a sip of your beer and you don't put the mask back quick enough, they will hold up the sign and point at you. They're all over the stadium. Unbelievable. That's their whole job.

And I'm like, really, guys, come on. I want my life back. You said it exactly right, right. Hopkins changes things, guys. I hope you're right. This is not Robert Malone, a doctor we haven't heard of, who nevertheless holds nine patents on MRNA vaccines. This is not McCullough, the most published cardiologist out there

that nobody's ever heard of, but who nevertheless has bona fides that are pretty impressive. It's Hopkins. I beg you, if you're listening to this podcast, Google it. You might not see it on ABC or CBS or NBC or wherever, but Google it and look at it. And if you're skeptical, read it slowly with an open mind, do the math, and weigh the sacrifices. For the life of me, I don't have a crystal ball, obviously, Brian, but we should circle back next week. If you've got time, I'll pop on your show. I'll be great. I'm desperately curious. And look, I also want to

land the plane somewhat sensibly. So what in the world would Abraham Lincoln do? Well, he lived a crisis. I often wonder what kind of president Lincoln would have been without a crisis. I mean, seriously, right now, if he were in charge, knowing what you do about the guy, and you know a lot, how would he navigate the incredible complexities and the minefield that we've laid for ourselves over the last two years? How would Lincoln get us out of us? One word comes out fearlessly. He was fearlessly, ferociously, determined to do what's. best for the country. And that included putting his own hopes and dreams aside. You know, he wanted

everyone to be free, but he knew to keep the country together. He was going to either have to fight a war or cut a deal. He was willing to cut a deal with the South, to allow them keep their slaves, to talk this out in order to keep the country together. And that drove Frederick Douglass insane. He's like, wait, you talked about and debated everyone and told everyone that you wanted, you believe that everyone should be free and that's what the Constitution revealed, but you're willing to do that? He said, yeah, because what do I keep it together? What rules am I passing if I have no country? So he would not have cared about party, obviously to me, even though the first Republican president. He would have said what's best for the country

and he would have navigated us through how difficult it was. That means watching his own son die when he was in the White House through fever, through some type of disease, remember? Another son was fighting at war. You know, he begged and he's like, okay, go fight, you know, go join Ulysses S Grant Unit and go fight out there. And including seeing his wife's depression and having to deal with that. But still, he was like, what is best for the country? And to me, we are watching politicians do anything but so often. It is so disheartening.

So, for example, what would Lincoln do? He was smarter than everyone but didn't act like it. He was more well read than everyone, but didn't show off it. always asked more questions than he spoke, always had a humiliating, self-deprecating story to relay, never that made him look good, even though he was the strongest guy in the room, always physically, he was the strongest intellectually, and he might have been the most diverse, because think about what he did on a barge down the Mississippi River, think about what he did as a lawyer, think about his self-made politician. Whatever he did, the smarter people are, the more questions they ask, that's one humble thing.

that I think I've realized that least they have to show you. The smarter people are, the least they have to show up. So he would have to do what's best for the country. What's best for the country right now is get the economy going. And what's best for the country is trust him. And you know what they think he would do? He would trust the country. And he would say, these are the rules.

These are my worries. Now go live your life. I'm convinced he would say go live your life. Because he was the guy who told Grant, my goal is no revenge, no redemption. I will forgive, let's just go back, pledge your allegiance to the country, put down your guns, and let's get back on the same page again. So he would have found a way to get the country together,

knowing how far we are apart, laughing that he thinks we're far apart now compared to what he was dealing with, and he would have done what's best for the country. And just to put an end to your question, I'm convinced in my humble opinion and everything I've read and all the great people I've talked to, that no single person did more damage to our country,

including bin Laden, than John Wilkes Booth. Because what Lincoln was unable to do we're still dealing with right now. He knew we had to flood the South with housing. He knew we had to flood the South with security. He knew we had to make the transition from slave to free. He knew we had to flood the South with teachers to teach African Americans to read and write

and to immediately, through force, if necessary, put them into society. He never would have allowed the separate but equal. He said, what do we fight a war for? So instead we get a racist who wasn't a drunk. He was just drunk that day on inauguration. I don't think he was a drunk.

But Lincoln had nothing in common with him. He thought he could get some Southern votes for re-election if he named him as his running mate. So that's why the country suffers today because if you put Grant with Douglas, with Lincoln, and they had this central focus of bringing this country back together on whatever it took, I think we would have been great.

Everybody wants to be here for a reason. But, man, I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been a George Floyd incident, but we wouldn't have had the convulsions, riots, and sense of inequity in our country that we do now. It just felt like something could have been said, something grand could have happened in the wake of that tragedy that would have actually somehow, somehow turned it into a galvanizing moment. That was the genius of Lincoln.

And honestly, Brian, that's why I wanted to have you on right now, because these two guys, Lincoln and Douglas, for a time, were the fiercest of rivals. I mean, they had a lot in common in terms of the way they came up. Adverse conditions growing up, yeah. Right? They were rivals, for real. Somehow or another, they not only became friends, they became aligned.

It seems to me that in relative terms, that's what needs. to happen today. And the thing I worry about most in terms of the biggest barrier that's keeping us apart right now, it's not this whole misinformation nonsense, in my view. It's hypocrisy. I think you and I might have talked about it a year or two ago, but that business out here with Gavin Newsom being photographed at the French Laundry, that was not a small thing. Nancy Pelosi walking into that beauty salon, that was not a small thing. Right now, I don't even know how to process Eric Garcetti and Gavin Newsom standing next to an immunocompromised man without a mask indoors, given what Chuck just told us. There are people walking around with signs saying, put on your mask.

The fact that that could happen and the fact that it is covered, it's once again the emperor and his new clothes. What are we going to do? How are we going to process that? Where do we put it? I'm surprised there's not more outrage on the West Coast. I lived out there for three years. I know you guys are very different now. You guys weren't allowed to eat outdoors.

Yeah. In California. And then we find out later, remember in July of last year, they said it turns out you can't spread this virus outdoors. Really? I had people walking on the Long Island beaches telling people to separate on their towels outdoors. Right? Think about the idiocy that we've had. Now, we're into the people of California going to say to Gavin Newsom, who didn't get recalled once,

who wants to run for president, by the way. He actually lied. He actually said, that's the only time I took it off when there's pictures of him. How does he getting away with that? I mean, I can't follow him day to day. Chuck, I know you want to say something. We've got our out. All we have to do is find a way to get Magic Johnson to ask us to take a selfie,

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One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. That's it. Right. That's a good point. What about James Worthy? Does that count? Do we know? Does James Worthy allow us to take a mask off too?

No, no. No, no. Not good. No. It's got to be magic. We're not quite there yet. I've got to cross that out. Give me a second.

Given all the chimes going off in your world, it sounds like you're being paid by a gazillion people. Chuck, tell Brian. what you told me earlier about the restaurant just down the street from you because a lot of people aren't going to believe this, but this is a true story and it's happened all over the place. Well, there's a place in Burbank, which is not too far from my house. I've been there many times. It's called the Tinhorn Saloon. And they have a saloon door like the old Wild West, you know, in the front of it and everything. It's great. When they're open, it's like that. They also have a patio out back where you can eat. There's food and it's a bar.

Well, the city of Burbank said, no, you got to shut it down. And they said, well, geez, you know, we're going to just have people outside. Everybody walks through. They go to the back and they eat out there. They wear their masks until they get out there. No, you got to shut down. And the owner said, I'm not going to do it. This is counterintuitive, so I'm not going to do it.

So the city, in its infinite wisdom, came and padlocked his front door. So they padlocked the door so that they couldn't even open it. So then what the guy did was he removed the doors, hired a security guard. He was open for business hours, kept the place open with no doors, hired a security guard to watch it overnight. So then what the city did is they came, they brought a crew out and they built a fence around his entire property, which was an eye. Are you kidding? I'm not kidding. An eye sort of the entire community. And let me just tell you, again, with, you know, the Stockholm syndrome, I have friends.

I got buddies I play poker with who say, well, you know, look, they weren't. They weren't following the rules. They weren't following the rules. Unbelievable. Sickening. And you know what? They don't even know. Your friends are probably wonderful people and probably better poker players than you

because that's why you've got met up. You've been invited clearly. The other thing is I guarantee you they don't own a business. Yeah. If they own a business, they know that I can't take a day off. Excuse me? Yeah, people want to come in. I don't know who's paying my bills.

I got a mortgage to do, so I'm going to have to open this up. It becomes beyond these gyms too. I mean the gyms that was shut down. Are you kidding me? The first thing that I would be doing as president is, guys, vitamin D and vitamin A and vitamin C seem to be it. What I need you to do, if you've never worked out before, use this as an opportunity. I don't care if you have 50 pounds overweight. Let's be 49 tomorrow.

Let's be 48 tomorrow. We can do it. We can get in better shape as a country. I see some staggering stats that we're the fattest country in the world outside Austria, which I actually think is true. Let's use as an opportunity to change that. What can we do to be healthier today? Where could we eat? I'm going to pressure those fast food places to put the healthy food first.

Maybe do that. Let's just talk about how to eat healthier and let's fight out the virus little by little every way we can, as opposed to putting a fence around a bar where people want to hang out. I'm astounded that we're going through this. That is one of the most disturbing stories. At the risk of ending this thing on an optimistic note, if Lincoln and Douglas could become the friends they became, if the country can come together after that,

I do think there's hope for, I think there's great hope, actually, in the short term, but we have to push back against this whole misinformation nonsense, and we have to report the sources that come to us with, God, I hate to say it, Brian, but we actually do have to follow the science, and we have to do it irrespective of where it leads, and we do have to give added weight to the most credible sources on the planet. If we ignore this thing from Hopkins, then we're making our own bed, and we deserve whatever horrible thing comes next.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's why the thing in Ottawa is such a major story. If they have to bring in the Army to stop truck drivers from asking to do their job, it's unbelievable. But I'm just going to say, you mean stop misinformation. Stop vilifying people that want to ask questions about the status quo. So there's going to be things that might turn out to be misinformation. But if I get in trouble for asking a question or we all get in trouble for asking,

asking a question over somebody that Anthony Fauci doesn't like, that's a problem. When I find out that Anthony Fauci's got emails with Facebook's president and the Twitter's a leader, you know, and then I see Bill Gates with his links to China and they're all talking each other. And if we're not in that circle, we're canceled or we're off the air. But I would say on an optimistic note this. And here's the most fundamental thing. Do you know people in life that you get the maddest at are the people that you expect the most from. You might have a family member. You know how bright they are. You just expect him to be better

when they don't show your loyalty. They don't show you deference. You're so mad at them. You're madder at them than you are to your enemy that your neighbor across the street that never liked you and called the town on you when you're overbuilt your shed because you expect more. So Douglas had so much hope for Lincoln because he went to the Lincoln Douglas debates. He was in the audience a few times, read everything that he wrote, saw how bright he was as a speaker, saw the potential he canceled this, he was going to move to Haiti. He canceled the trip, he goes, this guy could win. I got hope for Lincoln.

And when Lincoln said, yeah, we're not doing any emancipation proclamation, yeah, we're going to do colonization. Hey, black Americans, sorry about slavery, we'd like to send you back and we're going to give you some extra spending money. Frederick Douglass goes, are you kidding me? This is your plan? Colonization? Now I got more on that, and there's opinions on that really learned people about

about what he was really up to, because Lincoln called in all the press. And he said, I'm gonna have, called up black leaders, but didn't call Frederick Douglass and made that offer with all the press there. And I believe, and so many smarter people than me believe, that he was trying to show everybody, white people,

that I tried everything. We have to learn to live with each other. So having said that, they were kind of sparring at each other, where's the Emancipation Proclamation? Why are you stopping people from free and the slaves? Why don't you let us fight? Why don't you let us carry guns? Why haven't you told the South if you just come here?

Why are you condemning John Brown? Then when they finally meet face to face, and this is the moment I think transfers. He says, the minute I saw him sitting on a chair that was way too small for him, I saw it every year of the war in his face and in his attire. And we began to talk. I saw how bright he was and what a great listener he was. He really cared about what I had to say.

And then he called out his draw and told him about different things he was working on. some of which like Douglas didn't agree with, but he goes, this guy's treating me as an equal. He is so smart. He's a good listener. Man, I was too tough on him. Frederick Douglass had a newspaper. And Frederick Douglass was ripping him in the newspaper. Why?

Because he expected so much more. And that's in a way how Americans feel about Americans. Guys, really? I expected so much more from you than think that we started in 1619. Really? you're taking down Andrew Jackson's statue, I expected so much more from you. That's why I believe so many people are tolerant, which would say see maybe overseas, and have the least amount of tolerant for Americans because we expect so much more from each other.

Somehow or another, we managed to sit by and watch Teddy Roosevelt get removed. That scares me. It doesn't mean that it's going to keep happening, but it doesn't. mean we're going toward a place where at some point a kid in the crowd is going to say, hey, that dude's naked, and then the crowd is going to turn. I don't know when that is, but I do feel, and Chuck's heard me say this a thousand times, sometimes things just have to go splat before they get better. We don't know what splat means.

We know what it meant in 1861. That was a big one. Obviously, we don't want that today, but if we can't talk freely about the different ideas that are swirling around, then I do worry. My hope is that we can, in part, because, dude, you're out there doing it. You're a jagged little pill. Your people love you. Your employer loves you. I admire your work ethic.

I'm a little bit jealous of your, what is it, is it your sixth or seventh book? We have. You don't even know. George Washington Secret 6 Thomas Jefferson Triple 5th He's counting him in his head Andrew Jackson the Miracle of Norwood Samuice and the Alamo

Avengers President Freedom Fighter It's my fifth but seventh overall What's next? You want to tease anything Plug anything? Well I was going to do anything but after taking a month off I'm like getting a little antsy And I'm just going to bounce this off you Has not been approved yet you ready?

Yeah I'm fascinated I read up from slavery Booker T Washington it's about 120 pages And I encourage anyone to read it He brings you right back to 9 years old when they were told to report to the main house that the northern soldiers were there. You guys are all free. You're done. And they walk, what do you mean I'm free? You're all free. Your slavery's over. And they all celebrate. Then they come back to the main house

and they go, can I stay? We don't have anywhere to go. So when I hear up from slavery and I see what he did to move north, get out of the salt mines, find a way to educate himself, become the smartest guy at his school and then start Tuskegee the way he did it and have his goal to bring a president. I thought, I want to do it again. Without a war backdrop, I'm a little worried because, you know, there's civil wars in the background, there's Texas fight for freedoms in the background,

obviously War of 1812 with Jackson, Barbary Wars with Jefferson, and the Revolution with Washington. But with this, I was thinking about doing Teddy and Booker T. And the way they work with each other, you know, Booker T, Washington for seven and a half years might have been Teddy Roosevelt's chief advisor?

No. even though everything, something he's Teddy Roosevelt would say, would go, ah, that's so insensitive. He was so ahead of his time on race relations. And Booker T. Washington's way of looking around going, yeah, that's racist, but I don't care. You're not. You're not. I'm going to work with you too.

And what he did in a time in America when we were transitioning out of this period, I find so inspirational. And he was the first black man to eat in the White House with Teddy Roosevelt's entire family, which was huge controversy. But how they moved America forward in race relations. and what they did, if I could tell those stories without doing the biography, the biography's been bombed by too many people,

including themselves, if I could tell their story and move us on race relations, I've enjoyed talking race relations on the stage and in these interviews and the podcast with Frederick Douglass and Lincoln. And a lot of stuff Lincoln said,

you go, oh my God, it's Archie Bunker. No, he was a person of his times, and I think I could do that. I was thinking about thinking Teddy and Booker Tee, how to American icons continue to move America forward and some type of subtitle. That's what I'm thinking about doing. And I've talked to Tweed Roosevelt,

the great grandson of Teddy Roosevelt. He's pleased by it. He's like, we would love that. Because they were shaken by the moving of the statue because they had some things that were racially insensitive. He was more racially forward than anybody else. That guy read a book a day. I know.

Teddy Roosevelt, by far. I think he was the first speed reader to ever be a president before speed reading was a thing. And he wrote, I mean, God, he wrote hundreds of thousands of published words. It's unbelievable. Yeah, do that, man. That sounds great. And you know who else you would enjoy, maybe as a guest on your show? Have you met Salina Zito before?

I know of Selena Zito. She writes for about three different publications. She was on here last week, and we had a great conversation. She has a column called The Middle of Somewhere, because she believes. there is no such thing as the middle of nowhere. And she only takes back roads, and she's been driving across the country for a decade. And you can find her stuff in the post and the examiner and here and there.

But you would like talking to her a lot. I know she didn't do it. I like talking to you guys. This is great. So, we're charming. Seriously, because we do the same thing on television and all different venues, I find myself thinking of your mindset all the time.

Because there's no difference in Mike Rowe now. Mike Roe on the couch at Fox and Friends, and micro in real life, at all. Am I correct? Here, I'll show you something funny. Look at this. This is the cover of my book. You'll notice, I only own the one shirt. Ha, ha.

Right. He's the same guy. Right. It's amazing. Well, you know what, Brian? Truth is you are, too. Yep. People describe Mike as very authentic.

Just having spent the last hour with you right now and having seen you on television and heard you on the radio, I'd say you are very authentic as well. You're the same guy. You're doing it. Mission accomplished. He's too busy. He's too busy to maintain a facade. It's not really a compliment. But when you put yourself in the kinds of positions that we've put ourselves in, it's kind of like if you're going to lie, you need a great memory. I don't have a good enough memory. So it's easier to tell the truth. It's easier to be who you. are. Sometimes there's a little bit of a consequence for that, but whatever. It's an easy thing to live

with. In other words, Mike Googled my name. And he sees all the stories that have popped up. Brian Kilby did it. I have like 99% of it. Like, if I was ever on the dating scene, I would probably not get one first date. I'm like, hey, he seems like a nice guy. I googled him. I think I'm going to put it on one ring. I'm not going to pick up. Swiping right. Hey, a lot of swipe and right. Speaking of you being so busy, I just want to mention all these things because I live to please Allison. You have a new Fox show. Congratulations, called One Nation, which comes on Saturday night at 8 p.m., is that correct? Yep, repeats at 11. Pretty excited about it.

Last week was the first week, so it's early on. You have the Brian Kilmead Show, nationally syndicated radio show. You have the Fox Nation show called What Made America Great, also great, and every day you're on Fox and Friends. It's ridiculous. And, of course, you wrote this book, I have the actual copy, The President of the Freedom Fighter. You know, look at that. Where should they buy it? Because people can buy stuff anywhere.

Where would you prefer people buy your... Well, this is something Mike Roweish would do. I worked at a deal of my local bookstore. If people go to my website and they want it personalized especially, because it's better than a romance model, Lincoln and Douglas. So, as you know, for Valentine's Day, it's the perfect thing to give the person you find special. It's one of the best pop-up books I've read at a long time. Fantastic, yeah.

And I appreciate it a large print. But you go to Brian Kill Me.com. click on that, you can tell me exactly what you want to write. I show up my bookstore once a week, and I'll have all the books, and I personalize them. You know, within, like, the 1-800 Flowers Box, so it's within a certain amount of words. I do that.

That's the best place to get it. Yeah, it's still selling, but you don't want to oversell here. The other thing is, these books, I have a platform to tell people about them. So there's a lot of great books, but people don't have a talk show. I got these shows, and I'm able to talk about him. Fox says, yeah, do a special on him. I'm under no illusion that with... Without the specials and without the Fox platform, they don't sell this amount that they've sold.

So that's why my ego is totally in check. The only thing I'll give myself credit for, I realized Fox would have done just as well without me. So I'm going to hold on tight. There's a lot of people who think they're bigger than the channel and they can go take their fame elsewhere. I never was under that illusion. Ever. Yeah. I remember life before Fox, I didn't like it.

Seriously, next week it's absolute pandemonium. but if it works out, I'd be happy to hop on your show. Which one? How about the Saturday show? Your new one? Yeah. I tape on Friday around noon. Like I could do it right now? Yeah, my hour's 12 to 2. So he did it right before coming here.

You just wrapped it before you came here. You just already did it. I literally walked out of the studio, had one minute to sit here. You know what? Let's shoot for next Saturday. Then we'll know. It tapes on Friday. Am I back on Friday, Chuck? Or am I still in Phoenix? Or am I in Dallas?

You know what? We'll figure it out. I mean, we've come this far. I really want to understand this Hopkins thing better. It's pretty arcane. It's a lot of reading, and I've gotten through most of it, and apparently a new one came out yesterday as well. I just really feel, I don't know what the hell I can do about it.

I'm trying not to be political, and I'm trying not to be a douche about the whole thing, but I don't want to live in a country where a study by Hopkins is suppressed. I just think that's just bad with a capital B. So I'd be happy to chat about all that more. Well, listen, next week isn't going to work. You're most likely going to be in Dallas. But I think maybe we can get you on Brian's radio show Monday or Wednesday.

You know what? Studies show America doesn't care about any of this house cleaning stuff. So why don't we officially end what I think has been another authentic, riveting look, honest, behind the scenes, real. I mean, Brian, I am concerned. I haven't heard your computer dinging in the last two minutes. Is it possible? They've canceled your contract?

I apologize. I had our calendar open, which means I was getting the email audio. So as soon as I closed our calendar, I was afraid to close it because I thought it would close this. So every email that was coming in, so I apologize. Yeah, I noticed that. It sounded like I was in pennies when they were having a sale in hosury. Bing. Bing.

Bing. Is this one of those things where you talk about me once I leave? Oh, you bet. No, this is one of those things where the entire conversation goes up. We don't edit at all because we don't have time and Chuck doesn't know how. Right. Right. So, yeah, this is it.

Is that why you're looking for somebody else? Is that why I saw that ad? Hey. How would you like to work for Mike Ruff? He's got one shirt. Looking for a real go-getter. Right. That knows how to edit.

And write books. And host shows, that'd be great because I'm looking to get out of this. And isn't as annoying as Chuck is every day with my schedule, hanging over my head. I want some freedom. The sick thing, Brian, I've known Chuck for over 40 years. We went to high school together. And he was having a perfectly respectable career in show business. One day he's like, hey, can I help out?

Is there anything going on over? Yeah, sure. You know, like I would always hire Chuck if it was a commercial, whatever I could do. He got sucked in. Now my foundation has swallowed him whole. Everybody else who works for him, he's female. So he's like down there in L.A.

He's like the court jester trying to keep everything sane while I'm up here in the Republic of San Francisco hanging on for dear life. It's a hell of a thing we got going. I'm going to add one thing in big picture. It's very hard for me to do things outside of here besides speeches that get okayed. With the stage shows, I could do my own thing.

At which time I get to hire my high school friend who does stand-up, my other one who was an MC, he was very talented guy. I ended up doing pharmaceutical sales. He always felt as though he left it in the locker room. So I'm able to get them on. stage and then bring other people out to get them more money and get them side gigs to me, that is so rewarding.

I can only imagine how rewarding it is for you because you've got these hardworking, talented people, and now you get to work with them and provide an opportunity. So to me, that's the most rewarding thing. I'm on the road with my friends. They're getting paid, and they're doing it, and they love it. I know how you feel. It's the best thing. That's the only thing about Fox is like, I have a job, but I really can't do stuff on the outside.

or else it's a problem. If I hop on, you know, dirty jobs. Isn't it funny how the older you get, the more important, the assholes you knew back in the day become to you? Isn't it interesting? You know, it's like we interviewed other people. We like the originals. Right.

I've met other people. I've got to sing with the guys that knew me in seventh grade. Right? Before I even ever work a razor. Yeah. So. Final thought. I can't believe this is a black and white camera.

You've written a black and white book. We're living in a black and white time. Good boy. What we really need is a little shade of gray, and there you are. You are gray. This is the grayest video we've ever had on the podcast. You just can't script this kind of thing. So thank you for that.

All right, and by the way, there is no script. We have no teleprompter. No, but I think I just got the title for these things. They always come at the very end, and I think it's Brian Kilmead, 50 Shades of Gray. Please, can you go to Plan B if you don't mind? No offense, I know you're created, but I don't want to have to deal with that. Thank you, Tom. Thanks, man.

I'll talk to you next week. Thanks, yeah, we'll do it. All right. Adios. When was the last time you felt in control of your business finances? Expenses tracked, invoices sent, taxes ready. That's where Found comes in. Found brings your banking, bookkeeping, invoicing, and taxes together in one simple app.

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