The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 240: The Crushing Certainty of Scientology

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

Today's guest is Spanky Taylor, whose company does fan management and threat assessment for high profile celebrities.  Oh yeah, and she broke her billion-year contract and escaped Scientology.  

The ocean delights us as playful otters restore coastal kelp forests. The ocean teaches us how our choices impact even the deepest places. The ocean connects us. Visit Monterey Bay Aquarium.org slash connects. Hi, everybody. It's episode 240 of the way I heard it. This one is called the crushing certainty of Scientology. Duh. Chuck does not entirely approve.

What is your problem with my title? I just, what does it mean? You're saying the word Scientology in the title, which is going to be very strange. Well, it's either going to turn some people off or make some people curious. And frankly, I fully expect it'll do both. The title is, it'll be made self-evident, as the titles always are. Clearly, what I'm saying is that those who practice Scientology are afflicted with a crushing certainty that they are correct. And, of course, many religions, I'm not.

I think, have a crushing certainty associated with them. But with Scientology, it's different. Wouldn't you agree? I would. I know in general that you are not a big fan of crushing certainty to begin with. No. Because you do like to look at all angles, which I think is really a good quality, but it's very difficult to find a favorable angle for Scientology.

Yes. It's easy to find a favorable angle on Scientology if you enter the church and ask the adherence to explain it. they'll love it. But if you're looking objectively at this thing called Scientology, man, it's something. Fans of the page on Facebook might remember a post seven years ago. I put up about today's guest, which is our mutual friend, Spanky Taylor. I wrote about Spanky because she escaped the clutches of this cult. There I said it. A cult, Chuck. Good for you. That's what I believe Scientology is. I wrote this post because I was so proud of her.

She's featured in a documentary by a guy called Alex Gibney. The documentary is called Going Clear, Scientology, the Prison of Belief, I think, is the actual title. Prison of belief, yes. And if I could just say that when this film debuted in Los Angeles, it debuted originally in Sundance and Spanky saw it there, but when she went to go see it here in L.A., I actually went with her. And you said something just now that I feel so strongly, and that is, I can't believe how proud I am of her and what she's done in the witness that she's born to this cult. There, I said it too. I think she's still got a little PTSD from it.

Listening to her talk, she's so grateful to be out. She has so much empathy for her friends who didn't make it out. And she has so much concern for people who are still being pulled into. to this thing. I agree. I think what she did is super courageous. Spanky came into my life years earlier when I was completely overwhelmed, happily overwhelmed, with letters from fans. Dirty Jobs had blown up, really blown up back in 2005, and I just couldn't deal. I could not respond to everybody. I was signing photos and writing letters and so forth, and she provides a service to a lot of movie stars. and she took me on and really allowed me to respond to people who I otherwise wouldn't be able to respond to.

That's how I met Spanky Taylor. And then I learned that she had escaped Scientology. And I was just so interested in her story because, as you know, I'm interested in why people believe anything they believe and where their certainty comes from and what they put their faith in. And when I saw this documentary, Chuck, it checked all those boxes, but it also hit another one for me that really pissed me off. And that is the tax-exempt status that Scientology enjoys today.

For the life of me, I just can't believe the IRS awarded it. And if there's any public service that can be accomplished by talking about this on the podcast, I hope it just brings that egregious truth to light for more people. It's so galling and it's so annoying. And Spanky makes that point in the interview where that's the thing that irritates her. It's our tax money that's helping to fund this organization. And that's just a bridge too far. And let me tell you that I became friends with Spanky before I knew she was in Scientology.

And when I read the book by Lawrence Wright, I was shocked. I had no idea of this story, this part of her life. and when I went with her to the screening, I just couldn't have been more proud of her. I love her to death. She's a dear friend and really just one of the bravest people I know and humble, very humble, shrugs that off. As you know, I was conned once upon a time, swindled by a friend.

I wrote about it in the book, lost every penny I had. It's very humbling to have that happen to you. Yeah. And it's difficult to talk about it. But once you start, you begin to realize these, kinds of cults, these kinds of cons, honestly. It's a con. It's a long con written by a charlatan named El Ron Hubbard. I know I'm poking the bear. I know I'm going to get some pushback for this. I did seven years ago. I honestly don't care. It's not mandatory, folks, but you should

watch this documentary, ideally before you listen to this conversation, but you don't have to. I just watched it on YouTube again this morning. I hope everybody in the the country watches it, because you're going to see Tom Cruise say some things that you're simply not going to believe. You are going to hear a number of stories from a number of people who have escaped the church. And if you keep listening to this podcast, you'll hear one of those stories from one of the people that Chuck and I happen to know. I wanted to do this because I just hate a bully. Amen, brother. I just hate a bully, a thug. a creep. And when those people get together, when bullies get together, you get a mob or something

worse, and that's bad all in and of itself. But when that mob can somehow convince the United States government to grant a tax-exempt status, you're going to be appalled when you hear what Spanky has to say. She worked as a slave for years, literally, virtually no money. Part of a huge giant labor force that works essentially for free lives in squalor. And you'll hear about this church with its many congregants who donate hundreds of millions of dollars, billions to this day. And they don't pay a penny of tax. And in my view, it's a hell of a thing. So that's why I wanted to have her on. Thanks for making it happen, Chuck. I think it's a difficult conversation to listen to at times because if you put yourself in her place,

it really is chilling. And it's kind of a miracle she got out. And it makes it all the stranger because Spanky has such an unusual voice. Yeah, I know. And of course we had our normal technical drama as well, but in spite of all of that, it's a conversation worth listening to

the crushing certainty of Scientology. Here it is. Right after this commercial, My guest today, Tom Albanyce is an American Giant, and I'll tell you why. Tom understands on a fundamental level that the business of mining is a non-negotiable prerequisite of our civilization and our economic independence, just like the business of making things. American Giant knows this, which is why they committed themselves 16 years ago. to make all their excellent clothing right here in this country. It wasn't easy, but they did it.

They sourced locally grown cotton, and they built factories in towns across the nation where they could hire hardworking locals who cared about making a quality product. And then they went about the business of gently reminding people that when you buy a piece of clothing from American Giant, you're not just buying a high-quality sweatshirt

or T-shirt or another pair of jeans, you're investing in a local supply chain. You're supporting communities from the Carolinas to California. And you're getting a piece of clothing that won't just survive the wash. You're getting a garment that'll get better with age. Check out their high-quality staples, hoodies, teas, denim, built to be worn year after year at American-giant.com slash Mike. It's quality you can feel and a true American success story

that you can be proud to support. Use code Mike. Get 20% off your order at American-giant.com slash Mike. American Giant, American Made. American Giant, American Made. Yeah, we like to count down from six just to build the drama, Spanky. Okay. A lot of people go from three.

Occasionally, you'll hear five, but Chuck likes to start with the number six. We don't know why. It's an even number, which is good. Three's an odd number, like odd things. You look terrific. It's nice to see you again. Wonderful to see you, Mike. Really good to see you. Is this your office, your home, or is it still one of your thing? Well, it's an office. Yes. What's happening as I'm transitioning to a different home and downsizing because I was living up on a

hill with two-story house. As I get older and my MS becomes more challenging, I'm losing some physical ability. So I wanted to downsize and get something more manageable for myself. business. Are you still doing what you've always done? Yeah, same thing, different day. Aren't you sick of celebrities by now? No, I'm good with it. I'm grateful, actually, for it. It's a living, you know? What can I say? Thank you for doing this. Your name comes up all the time, of course. You came into my life because of our mutual friend, Ricky, who took pity on me one day when I was complaining about just trying to keep up, you know, with the fan engagement. And you were just so, I honestly, I honestly, I honestly don't know what I would have done without you because I had gotten to that point where there was no way that I could ignore the people who wrote me. They're way too important to me.

Sure. There was just simply no way that I could deal with it either. And I had no idea of people like you existed. You know, this was all new to me, but you made my life so much simpler. Oh, I'm grateful. You gave me the opportunity to help you, truly. So there are like a gazillion things we can talk about, but I know Chuck Torrey. you that I was angry the first time I watched this documentary going clear. I was also inspired. I thought it was just incredibly brave. And I wrote something on Facebook Easter about seven years ago. And people still ask me about that post and they still ask me what's new in the world of Scientology. It really reached a lot of people. I just watched the movie again. And that's why I called

Chuck. I said, look, I want to talk to Spanky. I want to talk about this movie. And I just think it's important for people to understand why the movie was made, why you agreed to be in it. Because something's got to be done, hon. These guys are still in business. And for the life of me, it just chaps my ass to no end. They still have taxes and status. So we are all paying for them to exist and to do the nasty things they do to their former members. And they get away with it completely because they're a church, or so they call themselves. And at the time that we first spoke about it, I think it was at Bits' wedding. And I told you, I did this thing.

And he said, what do you want me to do? I said, no, I got this. And I thought you would see it, and that would be it. But then when you wrote that thing, I was like shocked. It blew up. So many people shared and so many people saw it because of what you did and what you wrote. And I'm so grateful for that. At the same time, I was so worried about you making yourself a target, Mike.

I was so like, no, no, no. You know what? I got some pushback. I knew there would be some. And as Chuck knows, I've always taken an interest in cults and organizations and churches, both legitimate and illegitimate. And the reason why people believe things, full disclosure, I never told you this. And this is the real reason I wanted to talk to you.

I was swindled. once upon a time years ago by a trusted financial advisor and a good friend. And I lost everything. And that story's not unique. Lots of people have been through this. But the thing that interests me most about your story, my story, and everybody who was in this documentary is the frog in the boiling water. It's the way it creeps up on us.

So insidious. And if I'm being honest, when I look back at my experience, there was a time when I knew. I knew what was happening to me, but I was simply in some weird state of denial and I was paralyzed and I couldn't get myself out of it. That's the human condition that I think is so interesting and what allows organizations like Scientology to explore. So I just wanted to tell you that up front. That's kind of where I'm coming from. I would love for you just to give us sort of the short version of such a thing exists about how they got you, how they kept you, and how you got out. Well, I was very young when I got interested because it was friends who introduced me to it, friends who I had great regard for. They got involved. I was really young, 13, 14 years old. they were getting involved and I wanted to get involved. I got involved a little bit and then I backed away for like a year and then I jumped in kind of

with both feet. The peer pressure got to me, I think, and they sold me this bill of goods. Of course, they were duped as well as I was, but since then, most of them have departed the group as well, which I'm so grateful for. But I just followed them in and bought into it completely and trusted at the beginning, you question everything and you go, well, this doesn't make any sense, but in very short order, something called thought-stopping techniques come into play, where you start to question, you go, this is messed up, oh, no, I must have counterintention, oh, I must be connected to somebody

that's bad who's against me getting better, which is called a person, perhaps a person, perhaps? Yes, or a potential trouble source. So there's always a reason. So you assign all your doubts to something else, and then you just shut those thoughts off. You just stop thinking. And they're called thought-stopping techniques, which the organization is really good at using. And I did that for years.

At the beginning, they'll instill that on you. Oh, you can't think that because you're connected to somebody. Oh, you have counterintention to what Hubbard wants. Oh, you've got crimes. You've done something bad. So they impose that on you initially. And then soon you just do it yourself. It just save a lot of time just, oh, I'm PTO.

You know, I'm connected to a suppressive, whatever, so that you stop thinking. And you just go along following the orders and the commands of the leader and your superiors in the organization. What were they selling that you found appealing? What was the promise? I wasn't in it because I wanted my own gain. I wanted to help people. I mean, you know, I was to tell the 60s for the most part. I mean, so, you know, I was tune in, turn on, dropout era.

People's Park was happening in Berkeley. And I just wanted to help people so much. I was active trying to stop the war and all that stuff that I think in large part we did. I mean, I think that public discontent and the mass scale all over the country at the same time made a big difference. But I really want to make a huge difference. And I felt when these guys said, look, we can do it. But we have to help people one by one. We have to clear the plan.

We have to help each individual go clear and get rid of their reactive mind, which is this thing that they claim exists, which, by the way, does not, and they later find out, even in Scientology, it doesn't exist. So it's just ridiculousness. But anyway, if you're not following something that I'm saying, please stop me. Because I tend to just speak quickly and ramble a bit. So tell me if I'm losing you. So I'm tracking it. And Chuck or I will both jump in if we hear something that doesn't track.

But the reactive mind, look, Hubbard, as I understand it, he was one of the most prolific writers of all time. I think he wrote like a thousand books. He's in the Guinness Book of World Records for that, I believe. Yeah. But a lot of those books, he would do these lectures, or he'd go and talk and drone on and on and on. And those lectures would get cut down into pieces.

And a lot of those lectures, pieces of it, would come out and pulse letters that would fill these volumes. But it's because he talked incessantly and wove these huge tales. When he was writing Pulp Fiction, he was just going off on these tangents. But then he developed dionetics. And basically, when he went on and on, got stranger and stranger and more wild and more in the intergalactic stuff and all that nonsense.

Well, that's the stuff that when you look at the documentary and you talk to people and just kind of skipping ahead, you learn about Zeno and you learn about Baton's and you look. It's just comic book stuff. And no one in their right mind would look at that and go, oh, okay, that tracks. they don't tell you the beginning, Mike. They say, oh, this is going to help you so much get along better with your girlfriend, your wife, your parents. This will help you in the workplace. We're just going to teach you to communicate.

So you're not buying into all that. Nobody in their right mind would go, oh, okay, Zeno, okay, sign me up. Nobody does that. But Hubbard, in time, the whole process creates such credibility for him that soon you don't question anything. And also you're told anything that he didn't develop or create is bunk anyway. So you have to just listen to Hubbard. And it's ridiculous because you turn your back on so much stuff.

And you never think, well, he didn't invent the phone and we use the phone every day. Or he didn't build every bridge. Soon it's like if it didn't come from source, it's not real and not legitimate. Source being now run Hubbard. Did you ever meet him? Never. And from the films that you've seen in the archives, did you sense a charisma? from the man because people worshipped him like a god most of my very closest friends from the organization

they worked right with him the woman i worked for for years ivan who started celebrity center she worked with him for years and a lot of my very close friends worked with him daily and they said oh he's so great and he's so charismatic the only person i had a friend who was an attorney who went to flag and met him and said spanky i met the commodore and i said i said oh my God, what did you think? He said, I thought, God, why is he so effing ugly? You know, if he's so evolved. And I said, oh, my God, it made me laugh so hard in retrospect. But at the time, I was like, oh, my God, you can't say that. But it's so true. I mean, a lot of people said, no, you know, he had those bad teeth and, you know, just all these things that, oh, you can't think to even

see those things, talk about denial, you know, truly. Extraordinary. Yeah. So you mentioned the Celebrity Center. People should know that that's a sprawling complex. in Hollywood, right off incredibly El Ron Hubbard Way. I mean, is that sign? That's not Celebrity Center, by the way. Celebrity Center is off Franklin Avenue. That's the main organization, the Los Angeles organization, at the Advanced Organization,

and the American St. Hill Organization, that's a clump of buildings that delivered Scientology Services. Quite frankly, I don't even know what they're delivering anymore. I know that main courses that they had at the American St. Hill Organization, and the primary course, they're not doing that anymore. I don't know what they're delivering. I think they're just doing a land grab, buying a lot of property, a lot of real estate,

so that they could justify their tax exempt status, say we're building organizations for all this floods of people who are pounding on our doors to get services, although the buildings are empty from what I understand. Incredible. I pass by one in Burbank all the time. There's a brand new one. I think on Burbank Boulevard.

Have you seen that one? Spanky? The Valley Ideal Org is called. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of empty. It looks it always. Yeah.

He didn't say a lot of things that were true, but he said a lot of things that were plausible. And taken out of context, he just created this whole mythology, the reactive mind that you mentioned. That was half the brain. The other half was the analytical. And like that kind of makes sense to my brain. I know there's a rational, analytical part of the. way I think and there's a very emotional instinctual part or that conscious and subconscious or you know we could divvy up however so he was basically in the business of helping people

purportedly purge the reactive part of their brain to get rid of these uh what did he call them and grams right so the auditor moments of pain and unconsciousness they're called and grams that cause all the difficulties in your life? Well, that's what you think at the beginning. But later, the bait and switch comes when you find out that's never the cause of any of it, it sees other entities. But anyway, at the beginning, it's the reactive mind, which, by the way, you have never heard of the reactive mind until you read dionetics. You learn all about the reactive mind. So then you buy into that. But then the kicker is towards the end, the way you realize that you're clear is that you realize you never had a reactive mind that you created it. Well, guess what?

wouldn't have created had you not been told that this was there. Like had you not told me it was there, I wouldn't have put it there. You know, it was like, hello. So then people spend so much money go, oh my God, I never had a reactive mind. I created it. Well, hello, you taught me to create it. You know, it's kind of like when my kids are going to go, I have so many issues. I said, look, I've worked long and hard to get those issues. That's sort of the same thing in Scientology, you know. Can you create all this stuff for you? It seems to come down to money. You hook yourself up to an e-meter, which looks like something any kid in a science class could make. It has that slow-moving needle that purportedly gauges or tracks your reactions.

Auditors ask you questions. You sit across from each other face-to-face. The e-meter tracks your responses. Everything you say to this person is written down. Now videoed. And now videoed. And, of course, you pay for the privilege. Yes, every step of the way.

How much money do you reckon you paid over the years in the course of the... I didn't pay. I was a slave. I signed a billion-year contract, as you might recall. And from the time I was very young, I worked for nothing, for slave wages. But sometimes really, in all fairness, I got as much as $15 a week. And, you know, oh, that's 18, 20 hours a day. And what were you doing for your $18 a week or so?

Well, I was doing whatever they told me to do. Sometimes I was doing promotion for events. Sometimes I was doing, when I was in the slave labor camps, I was putting up drywall and working physical labor. But mostly I was just doing organizational stuff and recruiting people and keeping them happy and involved and taking care of, you know, as you remember from the film,

I was John Travolta's quote handler for many years. Why? What was your relationship with John prior to that? Do do do do do do do do dumb Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over the country.

I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves. a million times over by helping countless employers get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before. And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most qualified candidates first. This is a huge time saver,

hours and hours of save time. And it helps people like me find the people who can function in a non-traditional work environment like microworks. In other words, ZipRecruiter works for me, and they'll probably work for you too. Post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash row. And watch what happens. Odds are you'll find a human resource that just happens to be a great fit for your company

in 24 hours or less. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hide. Well, I met him in the organization. At the time, I worked for the civil woman Yvonne, and I was her public relations officer. She was a representative for Hubbard and the head of Celebrity Center.

So my job is to make sure he was happy and pleased and got what he needed. And anybody he had wanted to get involved, I would talk to them and whatever, just made sure that he stayed pleased. I mean, the power of celebrity for an organization, organization like that is huge. Honey, it's their endorsement arm. I mean, it's like whether it's Gucci or over, they have a spokesperson and a celebrity endorsement, you just recruit these people and then they become your endorsement arm in the

ideal situation. I remember an interview with Travolta, and I think it's in the movie, too, if I recall, but he started going to Scientology, and that guy booked everything, everything he touched. and he just immediately associated that connection. And you're right, that's about the best PR you can get for an actor to tell other actors that I was struggling. Then I went here, started getting audited, and now I'm in commercials, now I'm in sitcoms. The guy was on fire. Except, Mike, the truth of them, I mean, in my humble opinion, John Travolta was always incredible.

And he was booking stuff before he came along. And that's what our attraction to him was he was, he had it. He really had the it factor. Whatever he went for, he booked it, Band-Aids commercial. This is before Scientology. Everything he went up for, he booked. And then he got in Scientology, and then he books a TV series. Well, hello, he probably would have anyway because he just was that good at what he did.

And he was funny and he was kind and charismatic and wonderful at what he did and had this magic that he came in with. So to attribute all that to the organization has given them all a power that he already possessed. But unbeknownst to him, he didn't realize he had it already. I wonder if he even believed in himself at that time. But it was pretty obvious. He was pretty magnificent. You guys became close. He was at your wedding, wasn't he?

Yes, he was. And he cared for you? And you cared for him? Very much. But he must have known, you're basically part of the cheapest workforce. since slavery, and you are living in conditions that aren't great? I don't think they think about that. I don't think they really look at that.

I don't think he ever came to see where we lived. I don't recall him ever coming there. You know, we lived a pretty squalorily situation back then. I think the situation has changed considerably back in my day, because now they make more money too. They make like $50 a week versus $15 a week or something like that. I don't know what they make now. But that was many, many years ago.

How many? You're in your early 20s at this point? Honey, I was 18. 18. Okay, so you got married. You got pregnant. You stayed. Well, I got married at 23. You know, I stayed in until I was 34. Wow. So. I stayed working for the organization. Then I left work in there, left the C organization. But I stayed a member because I was worried about my husband's security clearance. He was a high up in a legal Bureau of the organization, and I didn't want him in more trouble than he would be in otherwise.

So I just played along until I couldn't do it anymore. Explain what C.org is, if you would. The C. Organization is the most fraternal part of the organization, and it's, well, they claim the most dedicated members, or I consider the most brainwashed members are, other than the public who are paying money for this. You sign a billion-year contract. You agree to do any job at any time, whether you're trained or untrained, you have to do it. Because Hubbard claimed you've done everything in your existence of the trillions of years of your existence. So, okay, I want you to do brain surgery now. Well,

you better just remember how you did it before. I'm exaggerating there. But I mean, it's kind of almost that outrageous. But you're not exaggerating about the billion years. No. It literally is a billion years. A contract is a billionaire contract. Yes, and I broke my contract. So. I'm only by about 99 million 99,000 years. And it's a blessing that I did because otherwise I wouldn't have a life of my children who would have had life. Truly, it was my children who saved my life there, honey, because my guy couldn't keep them there.

I couldn't do it. It was too awful. You know, I worried about my kids. And so, and my son, my daughter, I kidnapped her and escaped out. I was pregnant with my son. I was in the prison camps when I was pregnant. So he was born quite ill. He was full term in under three pounds.

I had not gotten out. I don't know what would have come over anything. I just can't imagine. So is your husband at this point in time? He's still working there. Ex-husband. He's not on staff. He went on, start a law career.

Went to law school, and he does live along. From what I understand, he's still very much a member and doesn't have anything to do with my children. Both of your children are with. him? No, they're adults. They've never, my daughter, who you know, Mike, Vanessa, oh, you met Travis at Mrs. Wedding, but... No, no, I've met him. I mean, both Travis and Vanessa, he's their dad. Yes, he's their dad. And Vanessa hasn't spoken to him in 28 years, 30 years. You know, it's so sad. So you're in your early 20s, you're pregnant with Travis. Vanessa is a baby still.

Yes, a tiny baby. And how did the church deal with... that. Do you get to be with your baby? At the time, I said I was in a prison camp. I was in something called the Rehabilitation Project Force, which is like a re-inductination camp for members who kind of veer away or go out of step of the mindset, the rules of the game. So along with 300 other people that I knew we all got sent. It was as though all anybody's any altitude of the organization got taken off their jobs and put into this camp because there was all sort of higher executives who just all hit the skids simultaneously and i just was in that group not that i had altitude but i think because

of my proximity to yvonne it was considered that i might have some altitude so frankie can you just explain what that means having altitude i was high ranking within the organization okay and i have a question too what did they perceive that you had done to wind up in prison camp essentially and described that. You know, there was an incident. I was already in a bad list for some reason. And then I was simultaneously trying to get Yvonne, who was my senior, my boss at the time,

who I adored some medical attention because she was suffering quite severely with an illness. And I wanted her to get help. And she kept saying, I need to go back to flag the headquarters in Florida to get some repair because she claimed that somebody had messed up on some of her processing.

So, and Yvonne had dedicated her life to this organization. There couldn't be a more dedicated person, in my opinion. Everything she did was to make Hubbard look good, everything she did. And she was quite ill. Her children, she gave them to Hubbard. I mean, she turned them over. Her young girls worked for him as messengers, and she didn't see them for years because they were with Hubbard.

And she was so dedicated, and she bought it, Huy, and Sinker. And I trusted her and loved her and believed her. and when she took ill, I wanted her to get help. I went to everybody that I could think of to get her help. And I was just running into brick walls. So finally, I went to this high-ranking financial person and said, I need to have the money. I need to get the money to send Yvonne to Flag,

which is the headquarters in Clearwater. And she said, if she wants to go to Flag, she could take the effing greyhound. And I said, excuse me, this woman has given her life for this organization, her entire life. I mean, other than when she was very young, she was a school teacher, but she had given many, many years

to the organization working for nothing, working on that ship and everything. So it just made me angry, and I shook my finger in her face and said, you were Yvonne's assassin. Wow, that wasn't going to gain me any points. And where did that land you? What were the conditions like where they put you?

Well, you know, that big blue building that you were talking about earlier, the big blue sometimes. it's called that organization. Well, I was on the seventh floor on that building just on lockdown where we had to run up and down that stairwell and we had to work chipping paint and, you know, scraping windowsills and doing renovations on the organization. And I was pregnant. I got pregnant. And so it was icky. It was really awful. But you had to live there also, right? Yeah. And you had to live in these bunks, I think, four, six, I don't remember. Yeah, you had to live there.

your baby with you at this point? I mean, where's Vanessa? Vanessa, she got taken from me before I went. She was with me when I was working in the organization, but when I got put in the prison camps, she got taken away to something called the cadet organization, which is pretty vial, in my opinion. But I got to see her 20 minutes a day. It was called Family Time. If I was on really good behavior, I could see her. I mean, as I recall, it was one of those visits that ultimately led to your unauthorized, departure. I had to plan it out pretty well, and I had to figure out what I was going to do as well as I could, because you couldn't speak to people other than the people within that group

and the RPF. You could speak to other RPFers, but you couldn't speak to other people. You weren't allowed to walk anywhere. You weren't allowed to use a phone. You weren't allowed to. So I did make a call, but because I was pregnant, I said, I have to call the doctor. And I called somebody to get help. describe if you can the moment when you decided you had to leave you had to get out of there come hell or high water well there are a few steps that led up to it i had gone and i had been doing work on premises and one of the places i had to work was at the cadetto and i went to see where my daughter was and the condition that was deplorable so that was my first that i went no i'm out that was my first thing but then um these missions

These people on mission, they came to put together some kind of reward for the RPF and the EPF, which is the state's project force for a building one of the organizations, building one of these buildings again. So they wanted these missionaries were trying to establish an award. So they asked if I could get a copy of Saturday Night Fever for the crew, for those people, those prisoners and those slaves to get to see this film. So I had to put this together And I was able to With the help of someone on John's staff On his regular staff The people who work for him professionally

Get a copy of his film His print of the film To show at this event And I was told that He would loan us the copy predicated on us getting together Because he hadn't seen me I'd like disappeared

I worked very closely with him And then I disappeared to go to prison camp So he didn't know where I was So I was told you know, you can get this film, but he has got to see you. So I said, I'll let them know. So I went back and asked. They said, yes, go ahead, do it. Make the agreement. So I did. So now it's the evening that we're going to show the film. And the film ends a credit to rolling. And I see one of the high high people who later became the president of church gets up and walks toward me.

I think, oh, he's going to say, oh, well done, Spakey. Good getting this. So then I saw two other people coming and they're escrowning me out. And then they take me this room and he said, it's like one in the morning. You're going to call John right now and cancel. I said, excuse me? No, no. We made an agreement. You know, to me, a commitment is a commitment. So I thought, no, I haven't a commitment.

They said, no, you're going to cancel. And, you know, I'd been there for so long and suffered so much. And I thought, I can't do this. So then I called him. I was crying hysterically. I called him, said, look, I can't make it. And said, what do you mean you can't make it? He really got into it.

And he said, Spanky. I don't know what's going on, but this is wrong. Whatever you think you've done, this is wrong. You haven't been here for me. I've needed you. And my mom has died. I mean, so many things that happened, and I'd been absent for major events in his life. So I felt so guilty, and he got so angry.

And I was just, I had this crying and said, no, I'm so sorry. I'm doing this so I can get better so I can help you. And he said, spakeas bullshit. It's not true. And I couldn't even think, but I left. I mean, I don't think I slept. for a day or so because I was so flipped out. And then I just thought, yeah, in the next morning, I'll never forget.

I went out to where there's a window and I looked out and I just had clarity and I thought, I'm so done here. I've got to think of a plan. So from then I started thinking a plan to get out of there from where I was and had to come up with an escape plan and had to plan it out so that I could get the access to my daughter so that I could get her out because I needed to take her with me. and get her out of the building she was in. It took a whole bunch of planning on my part.

But I had no one I could collaborate with because you can't tell anybody what your plan is because they'll rat you out. What was her medical condition at that point, your daughter? That woman has had been quite ill. And when I'd gone in to see her and she had suffering from a colon, there was a block.

The film traded is the exact same time period. That's not true. From when I saw her and to when I escaped was a few weeks, I think. But she was still sick. So I just knew she was ill, so I needed to get her out of there. So I went and said I was having problems with my pregnancy. I had to get to a doctor, which is what got me to get to the phone.

And then I took her and said, when the car pulled up to take me, my friend, I said, oh, that's my sister-in-law. She's taking Vanessa to the doctor because she's sick. So I handed my friend Kate. I had her Vanessa, my friend. and she put her in the car and then I jumped in the car and we took off. But Vanessa went to the doctor right soon thereafter and she had whooping coffin. She had been quite ill with respiratory illness.

You described in the movie seeing her in the crib, her eyes were fused shut with mucus. There were fruit flies over her body. Yes. It was so awful. How many children were in that room? I don't know, probably five or six crib. in that little tiny room, but there was the whole floor full of kids. One of my best friends who was also her child was there too.

She was telling me one day that she heard a child screaming and she just knew as her kid and she was just over at the building for another reason. And she ran in and her son was all bundled up in the blanket, like almost suffocating with his legs flailing. And she, I'm right, he said, thank God I walked in there when I did. Because otherwise he could have just smothered there. I know, who knows what would have happened to him. What a nightmare.

So how did it feel to get out? Did they leave you alone? Did they try and get you back? What was that like? Well, the night that I left, I was determined I wasn't going back no matter what because I wasn't going to let my child go back to that condition. And I didn't always have me of my pregnancy

because I was pregnant and I didn't look as pregnant as I should have looked at that stage. So I was very frightened because you're so phobia-induced. You really think if you leave, some terrible thing will befall you. Some you'll get hit by a car, you'll die of cancer, something awful is going to happen because you've turned your back on the truth. But I think that's common with all cults that they have this phobia inducement, these handcuffs, mental handcuffs that you think you can't go.

So I was very frightened at first. But then I wasn't going to go back. That next day, of course, some people, they found out where I was. They came to recover me. I refused to go back with them. For some reason, again, I was thinking really clearly. And I said, no, they're not going back.

Don't touch me. I'll call the police. Don't touch my child. I was like so really headstrong on this. But I said, I'll go back. Because I said, Spanky, if you don't come back, you're going to get to Clare to Suppressive person. I said, well, hello, I'm already going to get the person.

I already left. So they said, no, we'll fix it if you come back and you route out properly, which means do all the proper steps. So then I said, I'll go back when I'm ready to go back on my own terms. I have to get settled a little bit and I will come back within a week or so. So then I found someplace to land and I set up a home at a friend's house. And then I started going back for this routing out process. That was okay for a little bit.

And then I left and then that's like the first step when you leave working for the organization. But then I continued to do stuff for the organization. again, to stay in good standing with the organization. So I wouldn't lose my whole life. I just, I volunteered because I still had connections that the organization wanted. And I had created also some political allies for the organization when I was there. So anyway, I kind of kept those things up as much as I could. And then I just couldn't continue anymore.

I've left now. My husband knows I don't want to do it anymore. Now years have passed. Meanwhile, you know, as I compliment. myself a mug wump. I was on the fence. My mug was on one side. My wump was on the other. I was just kind of balancing, trying to not get in trouble with the organization. And I would have friends who were suppressives, and I was so afraid I'd get caught. I was always so paranoid. I said, if you come over, please don't park by my house because they'll see us. They'll send a little,

see a car, I'll get reported. I was so frightened about all that. But in time, I got declared to suppress a person. It was such a huge relief. I thought, Oh, my God. I was in such good company. Some people I respected most in the world that had already been declared surprise about it. Oh, I'd be.

So I didn't have a thing on it. But then I had a lot of problems with the organization because they didn't want me to speak to anybody. As long as you don't talk or make any ruffles for them, they're okay, maybe, they're okay. As you don't star in any documentaries

or appear on any podcast to talk candidly about your experience, nothing worry about. Mike, I did so much for so many years, but it was like all, underground. I used fake names when I talked to the press. I'd say I was Marina Lerre. I'd say I was Beverly Center. I gave them all kind of fake names. Beverly Center. I didn't want to be found out so I didn't for a long long time and then when Larry did the book. Larry right he wanted to and I said

no I can't I can't. At this point. It's a prize winning author yes at this point I had built a life. I had a home I own my cars and I thought I can't lose everything now because I'm going to speak you know I've done underground for so long and I thought no they can't know that it's me because they suspect it was me all the time I'm sure but I didn't want them to know for sure so then he just said no spank you've got to do because you've got to tell your story because so many people have heard of scientology but they don't know what it is and I said well that's by design so that you'll actually come in so he said I understand that but nobody really knows John Travolta's a story they don't know the real story and you can tell you could fill in those gaps and I said no no I can't so he says spanky

There's going to be 200 interviews in the book. Nobody's going to notice. I said, oh, okay, then. So I agreed to do the book. And then I'm an idiot. So I do the book, and then I remember one day the phone rings. I'm at a restaurant with a friend. And he said, Spanky, the book has been excerpted in 18 international publications.

I said, oh, Larry, good for you. I'm so proud. That makes me so up. He said, and it's going to be a front page story, Hollywood reporter. I said, oh, how great, I think. He said, well, it's your story. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. I thought they're going to kill me. Oh, my God. I was so frightened. And then the book came out. You know, I had the arrestment for stuff was far greater. It had been terrible. You know, the kids were followed.

We had private investigators following us all the time. It was dreadful. Well, wait a minute. Don't glaze over that. Can you describe that a little bit more? Well, when I first left, yeah, because before I was like in good standing, I mean, I was still like I was out of the Seorg, but before I made good with saying, no, I'll be okay, I'll behave, I'll behave. So they didn't know what's going to happen with me.

And I had friends, they didn't like my friends. And I had friends that were very controversial. So that wasn't a popular thing because I was friends with SPs. But at that point, I thought, you know, I'm an adult. I should get to pick who my friends are. By now in my life, I should know the good guys from the bad guys. So you don't get to tell me who I can be friends with, but they felt they could. And for a long time, I let them.

But at this point, I didn't want to let them any longer, and I paid a price for that. So then every time someone would come to my house, private investigator will go see them the following day. I'd have friends over for dinner. Then PIs would show up at their house asking questions about me. It just got nasty. And then people going through my garbage, all the stuff you saw in the film, you know, that's like common practice for people who leave and speak out. And I wasn't even speaking out that they knew of, or maybe they did. But I didn't think they did.

obviously they knew I had an opinion and they knew I had a mouth. How long did that go on? Oh, for long time for years. But then it quieted way down because I was no longer on their radar. And there were people that took the baton and there were bigger enemies and bigger fish to fry. Time frame real quick. So you leave in 1987? I left the series of 70, class of 78.

I get declared divorce in 87 because, well, my husband, felt if Scientology was not the most important thing in my life, we couldn't be married. It just clearly wasn't, and I couldn't fake it. I mean, it is or isn't, and at this point it wasn't. So we couldn't be married. So, okay, so now it's clear that I'm no longer in the game and involved. So I just decided to leave, and then things got very stinky for me because, like I said, they did like my friends, and they thought I was subversive.

And then shortly after that, 870, I went into therapy because I had. thought I needed help sorting my head out, which that's really a no-no in the organization. You know, there's nothing worse than the mental health field. I mean, they're the real enemy. The psych. The psychs. Right. Anybody in the mental health field, yeah.

So that put me in a real bad situation with the organization. But at that point, I didn't care of it. It must have been really awkward for your husband at this point, too. He's still high up the food chain. By this time, we'd split up. I mean, I certainly wasn't with him when I was getting therapy or I took the kids to get therapy because my kids really, they were little, but they were very slipped up by all of this that every time there was a knock at their, we'd freeze because we're sure it was a process server, you know, because there were subpoenas coming and it's crazy. Don't out to the door, don't out to the door. Because someone said that, I mean, it was like so bizarre.

When Alex was doing the film, when Alex gave me another Oscar winning documentary, the film of Going Clear, I'll be a film that you guys. saw. He was talking to my son and it was so awful for us and we feared for our lives. I said, Travis, you didn't really think you're going to be killed. He said, Mom, we were just kids. We didn't know what to think. We knew that our mother was always in danger. We knew we had to always be afraid. We knew people were following us. What were we supposed to think? Of course we felt our lives were in danger at various times. I thought, oh, my God. Of course they would. I mean, they were traumatized more than I even realized. You know, he said something Larry Wright does that really struck me in the beginning of the documentary.

His book, by the way, is the same title as the doc, right? Going clear, The Prison of Belief. Scientology and the Prison of Belief. That's something we can unpack in a minute, too. But early on, he just calls it the crushing certainty. The federal government is not going to close America's skills gap. They have an important role to play for sure, but if we're serious about reinvigorating the skilled trades on a national level,

we need more organizations like Skills USA making a real difference on a local level. These guys have been around since 1965, and today they are relevant like never before, with hundreds of chapters in schools all over the country and hundreds of thousands of students participating and competing every year. Nobody is doing more to train the next generation of skilled workers than Skills USA. And I'm encouraging you to at least consider being a part of this movement.

Skills USA advisors and volunteers aren't just teaching trades. They're launching careers and strengthening the backbone of our country by mentoring the next generation of industry leaders. In high school, you could be among the people who are making this movement explode. Join the skilled trades movement. Support career and technical education programs through Skills, There's no better way to do it. You can volunteer at a local chapter. You can start a chapter in your own town. Or you can just go to their website and see the impact for yourself and see too how easy it is to get involved.

Thousands of kids are being introduced to the trades in a way that's absolutely positively moving the needle. The goal is a million members by 2030. I think it's doable. I'm doing what I can to help them. Learn more at skillsusa.org. slash Mike. That's skillsusa.org slash mic. I'm talking skills, US, skills, US. The crushing certainty of the true believers and the impact that has on people who are just investigating Scientology for the first time, people who were curious, like Paul Haggis, who's amazing in this documentary as well. You know, he just picks up a copy. Dionetics on the street, opens it up, says, take me there. And he runs right into people who are so certain about everything they say. I'm always impressed by the power of certainty and the danger

of it too. And Paul is a brilliant man, talented and educated. And, you know, I know there's a stigma in these cults that you're broken or somehow you can't function on your own. So this is a crutch. But I have to say, a crutch ain't so bad if you need one, you know. But that's not only the case here. A lot of very accomplished people, you know, that woman, Greta van Custrin, she's an attorney, she teaches at Georgia. She's at OTA8. I mean, they're very established people. OTA. Yes. What's that mean? That means the highest you could be in Scientology at this point. At the highest operating state instance or operating state level eight. It means you're at causeover everything in the universe, matter, energy, space, and time,

but that's how they sell it anyway. And it's the highest point you can get to. And she's there and total hardcore believer from what I understand. It's just impossible, Chuck. I mean, two things can be true at the same time, as we know. But when I look at the footage of Tom Cruise accepting that metal, when I look at him doing, a military salute to that giant photo of Elrond Hubbard. There's so much German-slash-Nazi symbolism and paraphernalia. It's mind-boggling to look at that and realize that, forgive me,

but they drank the Kool-Aid. They drank it and they're passing it out. And they're standing in line for seconds and thirds. How can Tom Cruise be as big as he is? is, as talented as he is, as knowledgeable as he is, that guy can fly a freaking F-15 and an Apache helicopter, but he can't hit Google and read about his church? He's not allowed to. They'll revoke his spirit. I mean, you're not permitted to look. And I don't know the man, but I think from everything I've heard about him is a great guy. But I do know John and I know how good he is. He's so good. He's a good human being and an honest human being and a trusting human being who just completely buys this story. It's a prison of belief.

After all these years, you've never had any contact with him. Because he is possessed of the crushing certainty that all true believers have. I would presume. I'm hoping that's not the case. I'm hoping as things had happened in his life and evolved, things that by Scientology rules can't possibly happen. Like you can't die of cancer of your OT. And yet, Chekorea did OTA8 twice, and he died of cancer. Kelly President, John's wife, OTA8 died of cancer.

He lost his son. I mean, at some point, you think he'll go, hello. But you can't because you're all in. Oh, oh dear. What happened? We just lost Spanky. Spanky. Spanky, can you hear me?

your picture's gone and your sound i hope it's not the scientologist i got to tell you there was that one thing in there i forget who says this but he says you know you ask a jew you ask a christian you ask a Mormon hey tell me about your religion and in two minutes they can answer it it's like you do that with a scientologist and they can't they just can't buy design know for eight years eight nine ten years there's eight nine ten years there still getting the basics. It's being just like breadcrumbs. Yeah. They're just giving you a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit more. And then before you know it, you're eight years in and somebody's telling you that the entire thing is based on a character called Zeno

who lives on another planet. And you're like, man, that's a long run for a short slide. But I'm in. Now I'm in. Is there anything better than Paul Haggis's description? of that experience where he's like, oh, you know, so they bring out the handwritten stuff by Hubbard and I read it. And it's like, what? Are you, what? Are you kidding me? I mean, he's just, his reaction, the way he tells that story is so great. If you haven't seen this movie, you have to see it going clear. You think we can get Spanky back? Where do you think we've lost her? Gosh, I hope so. Well, you know what? We'll try, but you get the basic idea. I just wanted people to hear her voice and to get a look at her face. you know, we'll put some of the video up there.

She's real. She's survived what I believe to be one of the most pernicious cults ever. I just think that if everybody in the country sees this movie, this documentary that's now, what is it, seven years old,

they're both great. Or read the book. They're both great. She's back, by the way. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. The phones on did not disturb. I don't know. how that phone went. It's okay. I was just afraid they showed up and kicked the door in because they were monitoring the channel. No, God. I don't think I'm that big of fish anymore. I'm not, you know, Leah Ramini, this woman who is completely fearless and is courageous as she could be,

and she and Rinder, they're amazing. And now they have something about fear all the time. But I'm so sorry about that again. I apologize. Don't give it a second thought. I think it's only a matter of time until this tips. I was just saying to Chuck, if everybody in the country either reads this book or watches this documentary, you're going to be forced to look at Tom Cruise differently. You're going to be forced to wonder how the IRS buckled under the pressure to turn this thing. Honey, as extortion is how they buckled. It's extortion. They sued every agents and the IRS. Thousands. Thousands of lawsuits. Personally. Yeah. How in the world has this been allowed to happen. The first time I saw the documentary Spanky, I thought, well, that's it.

Game over. This will do it. You know, I thought the same thing when the book came out. Mike, I've had that thought so many times. First, when we had the IRS raid, I thought, okay, that's it. The FBI raid. It's 77. I thought, that's it. The resolution is done. Didn't happen. Lisa McPherson's killed. I think that's going to do. Didn't happen. I mean, things happened, these monumental things, and yet they survive. But right now, it's not even because they're delivering services because they have members who are giving them huge amounts of money, millions and millions and millions of dollars. So their coffers get bigger and bigger and they don't have to make a penny. They're just buying real estate like many world dictators

do. They just mortgage that to buy that over there and they will continue. When you have billions of dollars at your disposal, which in fact, I believe they do, there's very few and very little you can't buy with that kind of money. Plus add in a workforce that basically laborers for free. Buildings, but you don't have to pay taxes on it. And people donating just as surely as people would tithe in whatever faith. Millions and millions and millions of dollars. Millions and millions and millions of dollars.

Hundreds of millions in some cases. It's so crazy for me sitting here listening to you. I always try and argue from the middle. I always try, you know, in a situation. situation like this to hear both sides because they're always both sides. Which is so important. But for the life of me, what am I supposed to do? Invite Tom Cruise on, invite John Travolta on, invite anybody on. I haven't heard or read one single persuasive thing. I'm having a hard time finding anything remotely persuasive. I know how people get indoctrinated. I understand that.

But once you're in it, what in the world are they offering? Well, they have a great number of front groups like Narcanon, like Criminon, like they have some kind of human rights, youth for human rights. They have all kinds of groups, social betterment groups that aren't real. They're all just organizations to make the organization look good. They're just groups that they form so that you think, well, of Scientology. Most of them don't even mention that they have any affiliation with Scientology. but they all do. They're all part and parcel of their organization.

And they get celebrity spokespeople for those things as well. It's crazy, but they will tell you, we have the most active human rights groups in the world where the fastest growing, they talk a good game, honey, they really do. And from your mouth to God's ears, that something will come along to make a tip. And I think the lack of membership is a big thing, but they're still making millions and millions of dollars.

They don't need the members. They just have money, money, money, which is really the bottom line, which is what the bottom line has always been with the organization. Jim Jones had 600 people, give or take. Yes. Right? I mean, you don't need tens of thousands. What you need is a government that is willing to give you tax exempt status. That's what you need.

And that's what they have. And uphold it. That's what they have. There's got to be internationally maybe 40,000 active members. If that. In the film, I think they said. Yeah, and it's gone way down from there. So maybe let's say 10,000.

The critics suggested today there between 25 and 55,000 active Scientologists, but the church website claims growth of more than 4.4 million members. So, I mean, whatever. Who are you going to believe? Well, I'm going to believe Spanky, and I'm going to believe Marty and Tom and Mike, Jason and Paul and Sarah. Well, Marty Rathman is back in the organization, just so you know. No, what happened?

He got flipped. What? No, he got flipped. They flipped him. No. And he started attacking all the critics. Yes, yes, my darling, it's absolutely true. No, you've got to be kidding me.

That guy was, wow. When did that happen? Soon after the film came out, there was a documentarian in England, a guy named Justin Thoreau, and he did a movie about Scientology, on my Scientology story or something. And Mike was already teetering at that point. But he did go back. And I know he went back because all of the churches perceived enemies at that time.

He went after them and started attacking Tony Ortega, who was a journalist and, you know, Karen De LaCheria, just all the people, the organization that was on their poop list, he went after in a very bad way. I can't believe it. And Tony, Tony Ortega, doesn't he write the underground bunker? Yes. Yeah, he does. After I posted, he picked that up, and that's when I got some pushback for blogging about the film.

That's how I got Tony's name. He's in the movie. But Marty, I mean... Tony's been my friend for many, many years. He's terrific. 30 years. Yeah, he's a wonderful man. Well, somebody in the film credits Marty Rothman with being the best auditor.

Well, I guess, I don't know. I mean, that's a terrible compliment, by the way. But good grief. I would not put that in the special skills section of your resume. What do you think that Larry and Alex, you know, the author of the book and the producer of the doc, what do you think they make of Marty's reversal? Well, I think they were floored by this as well. But, you know, it's such a fun thing because even as,

were leaving the organization, even Paul, Paul Huggis, he was like, I don't want to talk bad about Hubbard because the decompression is so lengthy to get to from, oh, I don't want to work there to, I don't want to be in Scientology active, to Hubbard is not a great guy. That's a huge leap. I mean, it's a lot of steps later, but I know Paul was even hesitant. Oh, I don't want to say anything about Hubbard bad. But then, you know, in time, you get, then you wake up more and more. cycle when Leah wrote her book, she thought she'd gone through everything, but then she started garages of letters and people telling horror stories. She had no idea how bad it really was. And then as she was out longer, she learned more and more and you become more aware of the

mistreatment of other people. You know, people could believe it ever they want, which is really important to me, that people should, they should subscribe to whatever doctrine they think, but I have a problem with the human rights abuses. That's my big issue with the order I don't like people being abused. So that's my big beef. Well, that's a pretty reasonable bar. I think everybody would agree that human rights abuses are bad. I just can't get past the tax thing, Spanky.

Oh, honey, I'm there with you. Because all the awful stuff that's happening is being paid for by you and me and everybody who pays into the tax system. Pay my tax is really important as high in my list. But I wish I could pick where it goes to, but you can't. and that they can benefit from my tax dollars and my hard work really. When you said it's chapsed, it chaps mine too. It's very upsetting to me.

What can we do? By we, I just mean your average citizen, you know, aside from watching this doc, sharing the book and so forth, how do you support somebody like Leanna, is that her name, Leanna Bramey? Leah Remini. That was an incredibly brave. This girl is fearless. She's great.

How do you support them? And she knows that, you know, that documentary that Alex did. And that opened the door to what she was later able to do. And I'm so proud of her. She's done such great work. She and Rinder are still on it. They still have a good podcast. They interview a lot of people.

They're fabulous. That's Mike Rinder? Yeah, Mike Rinder. What's their podcast? It's called Fair Game, Scientology Fair Game. Right, because Fair Game, Fair Game is the impression they use to justify any tactic. They're dirty tricks, yeah. Anything and anything.

And to hurt anybody in the process, which they say doesn't happen anymore. And you know what? It doesn't. It doesn't happen any less either. So that's just how it goes. You know, I figure it like this. I know I sound horribly one-sided in this whole thing, but this organization has billions and billions of dollars, Chuck, right? At their immediate disposal, they're not afraid to spend,

whatever it takes to harass people who try and get out of this thing. If there's any rejoinder to Alex's film, if there's any rejoinder to Larry's book, why not spend whatever it takes to get their version of the truth out there? Why not debunk this documentary, whatever the cost, frame by frame, scene by scene, and tell us the truth. They haven't. They won't. They won't. And in fact, what they do is continue to tell people to stay offline. Do not Google. Do not watch any of this. It seems to me so clear. Don't read anything. They also have a lot of fake websites out there. I was telling Mike earlier, Spanky, that I was looking for Paul Haggis's letter when he left the cult in 2009. And it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Because everything, I said, oh, well, here's the actual letter. I go there. it's something written, clearly written by a Scientologist, debunking the letter. I couldn't find it.

Yeah, they did apparently a very tabloidy video about me and stuff for Freedom Magazine, whatever that is, because they go over this paper that, like, a text Larry and attacks Paul Hagus and it texts me and anybody in the film, but whatever. You're in good company. It's why I was happy to write about it seven years ago, and it's why I'm happy to talk to you publicly about it now. One of these days it's going to tip. Your mouth of God's ears, Mike. I'd like to be on the side of people who said, wait a second. Like you said, believe whatever you want to believe. Worship whatever you want to worship, right?

But for the IRS to see this film and to read that book and still say, yep, yep, tax-free. Makes sense to us. Tax-exempt. I can't think of a better mission for concerned citizens to look at and say, okay, let's do what we can to shine a light on that. Anyway, it took a lot of guts for you to get out of that my asthma and a lot of guts to be in the book and a lot of guts to be in the dock. Thank you for that. Thank you, Mike, for also opening your voice and helping people to, hopefully they'll look and see the film and get an education about what's really going on with that group because it's not all good for sure.

Let's leave it here. Where we started, you provided a service, and it was a really important service to me because I've always told Chuck and anybody else who listens, my boss, like my real boss is not the Discovery Channel or CNN or Fox or anybody really who's ever paid me. It's the people who watch. It's the people who listen.

And treating them fairly was something I, it was important to me. and I could not respond back in 2004, 2005, when we met. My choices were either to ignore them or spend all of my time responding to them. It sounds like a small thing, you know, but for me, it was a big thing, and I really appreciate your help in that world. I was at my wits end, honestly. With those Boy Scout letters, do you remember those?

Oh, yes. Oh, very well. Very, very well. I stopped counting after 50,000. Oh, no. It's absurd, it's amazing that they just kept coming. I said, no, surely there can't be this many new Eagle Scouts, but truly, it came forever.

And I have other clients that get requests, but nobody ever responded the way you did and gave a lot of joy to those kids, a lot of joy. Could not have done it without your help. Just wanted to check in, let you know we're both big fans. I'm a big fan of yours. Keep fighting the good fight. And I love Chuck, as he knows.

I'm grateful to have you guys be my friends, truly. By the way, where did Spanky come from? Sylvia was your given name, right? Sylvia Ivona Theresa Pignon Taylor is the name. Sylvia Ivona Teresa Pignon Taylor. I'm Mexican, Mexican, not a Mexican. But I was very young, like I said when I first got an organization, and I had a friend named Larry Shetter.

We called him Bull Shetter, and I still call him Bull Shetter, because we're still in touch. He was in the organization as well. He had been as a child in a different group like Menonites or one of those kind of groups, like Pennsylvania, you know, those groups over there. But anyway, Amish-related kind of group, Christian-based. And then he gone in Scientology. But he started calling me spanky.

I don't know where he got it from. Oh, he told me later. He said, you always ran with the positive. You always had friends that every place you'd go, we'd go in a group. You know, my girlfriends and I. So he said, so we go to hear a band's playing. He is a musician and are the friends of musicians. And he go, oh, Spangy and her gang are here.

So he started calling me Spanky. And then it was very annoying to me at first. And then my two best friends started to call me Spanky. And then that was it. It just kind of stuck. You know, it's fine when I'm 13, 14, but I'm an old lady with this ridiculous name. But it still works. So whatever.

Spanky, it works. And you got a great story to tell. Again, thanks for sharing it. We appreciate it. Thank you, guys. All right, sweetie. Be well. Love you, Chuck. Love you, Mike. Thank you so much. You're welcome. The ocean delights us.

Some marvel at the colorful world below the surface. The ocean feeds us. Others find nourishment in its bounty. The ocean teaches us how our everyday choices impact even the deepest places. The ocean moves us, whether we're riding a wave or soaking in its breathtaking beauty. The ocean connects us. Find your connection at Monterey Bay Aquarium.org slash connects.