The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 268: Salena Zito—A Place for the Placeless

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

Journalist Salena Zito keeps the conversation lively by dissecting the student loan forgiveness act, the lost notes of Baptist churches, moonshine coal, and her obsession with Fiestaware. 

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Not exactly a direct quote, Chuck, but close. Yes. What is it reference exactly? Well, our guest, the very special, Salina Zito, who always has a place in our heart, writes a column called The Middle of Somewhere. The Middle of Somewhere. Yes. And at some point, early on in the conversation you're about to listen to, you will, will hear her talk about the importance of geography and the importance of moving for any number

of reasons and the way in which she believes many Americans today have become untethered from their origin. I think she's talking about a time when everybody had a place, but now many people feel place less, and I just thought it was a nice turn of phrase. So I've turned it into the de facto title of this episode, which, by the way, is I think probably much, much better than the title. Well, it would have to be, wouldn't it? No, just kidding. But what this is really about is the article that she wrote where she quoted you multiple times. I believe it's called Pennsylvanians feel left out by Biden's student loan policy, which is about the debt forgiveness that's going on. And it gets a little spicy, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And to be clear,

this is not a conversation simply about that article, but what happened was the policy came out, and as you've no doubt heard, people with college debt are being relieved to the tune of $10,000 to $20,000 depending on your income. A lot of people are upset by this, in particular people who went to college and paid off their loans. And in my world, the kinds of people that I've been featuring on dirty jobs and the kinds of people our foundation assists, they're the ones essentially being asked to write a check. And so I wrote about this on Facebook. It turned into a thing. Selina wrote an article, and it's been read by millions of people. I'm not going to let this go for personal reasons. But I just think Selena is one of the most interesting people to talk to about this, because, as with

everything else, she writes about, she's got a front row seat to the issue. Yeah, she's an excellent writer. And she always goes to where the story is. I mean, when we had her on the podcast previously, that was seven, eight years ago, I believe the episode was called Don't Fly Over the Story. That was an expression she used because she always drives. She makes two trips across country every year. One is east-west, one is north-south. Correct. She's from Appalachia. I mean, that's her beat, and so she's written hundreds. From the Paris of Appalachia, which is Western Pennsylvania near Pittsburgh. Yeah. She's awesome. If you haven't heard of her before, you should really check out her column and just start with the conversation we're about to have right now. Selina's about as real as it gets. She's not a political animal, but obviously it's impossible to really write about anything today and not find yourself right in the thick of it. So it's a fun conversation. We touch on a lot of different things, including my mom, who's become friends with Selena in the course of getting her book out there.

It's always energizing, really, to talk to somebody like her. She's pretty fearless in the face of a lot of what's going on. And she doesn't pull her punches. No, she does not. She's a straight shooter, but she's a very fair writer. I mean, the article that she wrote about the student loan debt, I thought was pretty well balanced. Like you said, a lot of people read it. She got, I forget how many millions of clicks, but she got clicks.

A lot. A lot. Yeah, because this is an issue that affects everybody. So, you know, strap in, there's some debt, there's some school, there's some coal mining, there's some forgotten notes from a Baptist church, there's talk of mentorship, there's a lot of meat on this particular bone, the least of which is not fiesta wear, which you're going to learn about, it's not fancy underpants, it's something a lot more useful. It's episode number 268. Did you have a final thought, Chuck? My brain is as empty as the day is long, Mike. Well, then, without any further ado,

it's a place for the placeless where Chuck would be quite at home. Right after this. Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial and if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Row gently criticizing her oldest son

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at puretalk.com slash row. Pure Talk. Selina, I just met a girl named Selena. And suddenly, anybody ever sing that to you before? Okay, so that's really funny that you brought that up because my sister's name was Annette Marie. And so West Side Story came out when I was a little kid and they were singing that song Maria all the time.

And I was like, why isn't there a song about Selena? Why is it Maria? And so my dad would sing it to Selena. I had no idea. I love that. I also love the fact that like if you're in a room and it's crowded and you hear someone shout your name from across a crowded room, Selena, like the odds that they're talking to you are extraordinarily high.

Whereas for me, Mike, right, eight guys yanked their head around. No one knows. Anyway, you're special. When I went to school, everyone's name was Mary Margaret, Mary Elizabeth, Mary Cather, and Mary Mary, and then there's Selena. Yeah, and everyone else had bologna sandwiches and I had pepperoni and crusty bread. And so it's still that way. Salina still is special.

I always ask this, not always, but when I find people with singular names, I always wonder, do you think your life would have been materially different had your name been Betty or Elizabeth? Do you think you'd be doing what you're doing now, traveling all over the back of beyond? writing the way you're writing. Yes. Now, if I didn't have this hair, that might be different. But, you know, I don't think my name has ever defined me, but because I'm looking from the inside out, right? People might think that looking from the outside in. But I think I would always be the same person, not because of my name, but because of like my family. Now,

my family have been different and all the sort of wonderful, crazy, chaotic. things that went along with being a Zito, I would have probably been different. Well, for folks listening to this for the first time, Selina Zito writes a terrific column called From the Middle of Somewhere. And we've had her on the podcast before the first time I saw her was on a cable news show. And I was on after you, I think. Yes. I think it was Tucker, Carlson.

And I just remember him saying, Selena Zito's up next. And I was walking out to get a cup of coffee before I came down. here to Zoom and I thought, what the hell? What will Selina Zito look like? And what will she have to say? So it was your name that pulled me back to my computer. And then it was, of course, your many prescient thoughts and observations on the human condition that made me a fan. And Chuck, have you read her latest, uh, Screed? I have, yes. I wouldn't describe it as such, but, um, yes. Yes, I have. What's the difference between a Screed and a rant then. You do a great job, Selena, of making your point respectfully, going to where the

story is, but I'm talking now, of course, transitioning roughly right into the whole student loan thing, which you've written about. And I detected a tone of exhaustion and are you kidding me in your words? Was I reading too much into them? No, you're not reading too much into it. That comes from personal experience, but even more so, it comes from the people that I cover, right? I live in Western Pennsylvania, sort of the Paris of Appalachia, and where I cover goes from there out. So across the Midwest, down south through Appalachia, into Texas, all the way out to Utah and Colorado. And the people that I meet, because of the way I report, I travel along small roads, backroads, either old U.S. routes or state routes, to find what's going on in the country.

Because that's who I cover, and I'm not focused on a readership and or people that I write about living in big cities, these are the people that are most affected by what Washington does, no matter who is in charge. But this one wasn't particularly very sort of frustrating because it was, you know, Was the government doing what they do, well, either best or worse, in that they were choosing one section of the country to be successful, one part of the people to be more successful and to be rewarded. Yes. Rewarded for what my parents would say would be bad behavior. And that is taking out a loan and then relying on other people, often other people that already repaid their loan. and or never went and took out a loan, but found success in their life. And we're talking,

of course, about student loans and the Biden administration's decision to forgive student loans up to $10,000 to $20,000. As long as you don't, your salary doesn't exceed $125,000. And surely, people that I cover either didn't go to college and or went to a trade school or went to community college and or went to a four-year or got a higher degree, but paid their bill off. And now they turn around and looking at their neighbor or their nephew or their cousin, you know, the person that works at the insurance company, and they're getting a $10,000 to $20,000 bonus, a freebie. And it's like, it's absurd. It is the theater of absurd. As you know, this one hit pretty close to home for me, the people you're describing in the beat that you've embraced are by and large very similar to the people

I've featured on dirty jobs over the last 20 years, the people you'll find on how America works that is currently in production now. And of course, there's no greater corollary than to the 1700 people that my foundation has awarded work ethic scholarships to, people who affirmatively do not wish to go to a four-year university but want to learn a trade. I'm mindful of the fact that I'm biased. And maybe you are a little, too, given your roots. Okay, so we just admit that. But it's still awfully interesting to me to see the general sense of outrage around this,

as opposed to the great bailouts in 2008 and 2009. I'm still pissed off about the banks getting away with it. I'm livid. And when I write about this on Facebook, Selena, the student debt thing, people were like, well, where were you in 2008? And I'm like, well, I was right here still outraged. Still pissed off. Right. Yes.

And so what makes this different than every other decision the government is made to call winners or losers or encourage one kind of behavior over another or put their thumb on the scale? Why has this resonated so deeply with so many people? Well, first, I think we both should clarify is that we do have a bias towards this, even if it's a scoge. But that bias is based on geography, not on politics. That's based on where we're from. That's based on place, right? We are a country of the place and the placeless.

And I believe that your bias is probably very similar to mine. We both started out in community college. And so we have a sense of place and where we come from. But we also have a sense of our, of that sort of pool, right? You drop a pebble into the water and you watch the circle go out. We have a sense of that circle and we can see those people to the left and right of us who all did the right thing. And the people, I think to your then larger point, is why is this one so hard? Because the people that benefited from the most are the elite. And the people that are hurt by it the most are the people that go to the elite's house and fix their air conditioning.

Or fix their plummeters. So you have carpenters and HVAC people, plumbers who are going in and paying off the loans of doctors and lawyers and things. Exactly. It's very tangible, right? You can feel it. And it makes us feel resentful towards the people that are getting this and who we naturally wouldn't be resentful for. We like our doctor. We need our lawyer.

Right. But now this is divisional politics at its worst in terms of hitting us against each other. And by the way, there's a resentment that the elites feel towards the people. That's the part that really rubs me, that they are entitled. to this money. And there were several people that I interviewed for the story that I didn't even put in the story because I thought, oh, geez, I don't know if you really want to put that out there. You know what? I want to ask you about that because as I read it, and by the way, full disclosure, I'm in this story. You called me and I gave you some quotes. I tried hard to

pull my punches for the same reason I'm trying hard now. I was, I'm just pissed off. Sillina, we literally And Chuck had a front row seat to this. We just gave away $1.6 million in work ethic scholarships to roughly 300 men and women across all demographies, united only by two things. Their willingness to work and their decision to forego a four-year path. And for that, for that, they're getting a pie in the face. They feel like they're trying to try. chumps. I'm not trying to get out of my lane, whatever that means anymore, but I read, not in your

article, but somewhere that 80% of the people who work in the White House right now are going to get money back as a result of this. And so it is hard. I do my best not to make it political, but when everything is political, how do you not point that out? And how does it not make you go, whoa, wait. Yeah. There were, you know, and I tried not to make the story overtly political. There were several people that, well, there were several people that I didn't put in the story, but did help me with background in terms of trying to understand the sentiment.

And there were several people who told me that they believed that they were entitled to this, and then it didn't go far enough. And then there were other people who this one decision, this one thing, this forgiveness, which, by the way, it's not forgiven. we're paying, we're flooding the bill. It didn't just appear into thin air. Somebody didn't like just print the money and pass it out. There are people whose minds have changed politically going into the voting booth on November.

I didn't put that in, their names in as well. You know, as a reporter, you really have to be careful about using people's names. I always warn them. There's the slightest backlash people have over, you know, an unconed island. Social media is insane. But I don't think this is political. I think this is very common sense, the reaction to it. The institution of it is very political.

But the reaction to it is common sense. Well, so there's a guy you mentioned in the article who is about $30,000 in debt. He has a classical music degree. He didn't even finish. his degree. And of course, he's still on the hook for the note. And what interests me was his reaction. You asked him about it, and he said, look, I believe I was taken advantage of predatory lending and so forth. And growing up, it was pretty clear that there was no other option. But his dad is like a fourth generation tradesman. He's got other options right in front of his face. And it's not a judgment call,

on this kid. And he's not a kid anymore. But it's an observation. People can't see it. He believed, as I'm looking at your article right now, he believed that his unfinished degree in classical music was as legitimate to society as the tax write-offs that somebody might enjoy for purchasing a bulldozer or for the cost the taxpayer foots for building a new road. It's not that he's wrong. It's that he believes he's right, genuinely. Yes. And it was really interesting as we're having this conversation. There are a bunch of welders behind us.

Well, behind him in front of me. And they're working on fixing a city street, right? They're working on the rebar. They're working on the infrastructure. And he turns and he says, I don't think you, everyone paying, putting the bill for my degrees, any different than you footing the bill for those guys, give and pay for a new road.

I couldn't wrap my head around it. I can't either, but I think it's important to understand that he can't not wrap his head around it. I don't know how to reach that kid except other than to say, look, be reasonable. Make a list of people and be as generous as you want that will benefit from your decision to major in classical music and then not finish, versus the number of people who might drive on that road. And make a value judgment. I mean, what I want to say is, wait a second, you're not only wrong, you're backwards.

Those people building a road that we all use offer a far superior contribution to society. Not that there's anything wrong with classical music. I sang in the opera for eight years, for God's sakes. I get it. I get it. But come on, really? All degrees, all training are the same, and they're all the same responsibility to the taxpayer?

Really? Yeah. And, you know, it's the thing that you and I've talked about before and I've write about a lot. These young people, he's 39, so he's young to me, these young people have been sort of immersed within our culture, right? Our cultural curators, our corporations, our institutions. our government, Hollywood, all told him that, of all told him exactly his mindset. It's sort of like when you have a political leader that doesn't have a no man in their room, right, that tells everything that you do is great. Everything you do is great.

There's been no one in his life to say, kid, yeah. We have an entire generation of that. I love stories like this. this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent meat company that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises to deliver high-quality American-grown meat for a fair price.

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Here's what scares me. I agree with you, except for the part in this kid's case, his name's Jim, by the way. I don't want to just call him the kid, but Jim's dad was right there. Jim's dad was a tradesman. Jim grew up with Jim's dad. And every single day, Jim's dad showed Jim that, yeah, there are other ways to make a living. What I worry about is that, and I don't know this, this is pure conjecture.

Apologies if it doesn't apply at all here. But I know a lot of guys like Jim's dad who didn't want Jim to follow in their footsteps. They wanted Jim to go out there into the world to do something better, whatever better means, right? And I wonder, was that happening? Did you sense that? Yes, yes. He did tell me that. We had a very long interview.

What is ironic is that he now works in the same building trade that his dad does at the same union hall. That's his job. Okay. And he also said that he regrets going to college. He does regret going to college. He made a wrong decision in attending college, is what you wrote. Yeah, he did. He did regret it.

it's interesting because he did regret it however he still has that mindset that is befuddling like his realities haven't impacted his lane as you said like right he's still going to stay in that lane even though reality has taught him a completely like you should be in that lane well i mean if you're alive in 2022 and looking for work you better be down with the facts that the lanes are everywhere and they lead in all different directions. And if you're not willing to get in your car and to go to where the work is, well, never mind the consequences of not staying in your lane.

What are the consequences of sitting tight and waiting somehow for the opportunities you're looking for to land in your lap? Have you heard of Nick Eberstadt by any chance? No. Tell me about him. He was a guy. Actually, Chuck just recommended him to me. He wrote a book about men

who simply haven't. He just wrote an article in the journal about men who didn't go back to work after COVID, but he wrote a book about six years before on the same thing. And he's just talking about the fact that there's seven million men in this country who are not looking for work or working. And we've never seen anything like it before. There have been men out of work before, but by every past metric, they've been looking for work. The number of men who have given up is staggering. Just staggering. And that's the other thing that your article talks.

It kind of opens the door for it. This guy, Jim, got very lucky because his old man had a trade he could step into. But a lot of people at that point in their life right now, a lot of men in particular, are just throwing up their hands and saying, And the hell with it. No more work for me. They're disappearing into living either with a family member, with their parents. I think that used to be called Living on the Dull.

And there's this just whole snowball effect on our culture by that happening. There's this then next generation. So what if he has children and he marries, right? What's that generation being taught as an example by their parent? I just think we don't think about these larger culture. impacts. Just the place of men, period, in our culture has become, when we're talking about corporations in Hollywood, in soap operas, even on a hallmark these days, you know, it's sort of been diminished. I don't think any of this is good legacy-wise for what happens with the next

generation and generation after that. We need good examples. We need people, a mother or father, mother and a father to show examples of hard work and earning your way up or earning your way wherever you go in your life. And not showing that isn't good for our culture. No. Look, culture is always upstream of these things, right? I mean, it feels sometimes like it's the other way around, but I've always argued that part of the reason there's so many stigmas and stereotypes and myths and misperceptions around the trades is that the way they've been portals, portrayed in sitcoms and movies and disgusted cocktail parties for many decades has sort of collectively conspired to diminish the whole thing. But your point around portrayals of men in

general, I think is super interesting. Maybe we went too far in the 40s and 50s. Maybe the archetypal male was way too one-dimensional and way too predictable. But I think I was watching with my mom. Everybody loves Raymond. The first season that comes, it was a really fun show and I enjoyed it. But she kind of pointed out, whatever it is, it's always his fault. Whatever it is. Yeah. Whether it's a, he forgets to pick up the kids or he gets the cooking wrong or he got, he never really did anything right. Right. And once I started looking for that, Jesus, I saw it everywhere. It is. It's so true. It's incredible. Incredibly true. And that has been the case probably since the early 80s. The betrayal of men, whether it's in an ad or in a movie or anywhere in Hollywood or on a soap opera, in books, they're almost a throwaway character. We demonize men. We demonize the value a man brings not just to a relationship, but also to the community. I mean, men in the community, think about.

Rotary clubs or Elks or those kind of do-goody, the JCs, right? These are the kinds of things that we used to lift up and encourage men to join and scouting. All of that. The fraternal organizations are becoming less and less important in the community. I have no idea what's going on with scouting. I don't even want to know. I was just like afraid to find out. And we've tried to feminize and not in a negative way.

But we've tried to make men and women on the same plane in terms of value. And while value is true, there is also very different aspects between a man and a woman in terms of in the community. And we've made that a taboo subject. Everything has to say. You can't really say that anymore. No, I just said it. I'm going to leave now. Well, I mean, I want to get your take on everything you just said vis-a-vis, well, your demography, the Appalachian.

Because, you know, I think about what's so tragic there is that I'm going to generalize horribly. But the work ethic is so ingrained in the identity of a man in that part, right? Generalizing folks, forgive me. I'm not saying there's no work ethic in women. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the part of the identity of a man in that. the part of our country that Selena covers is wrapped up in work. Yeah.

And to see opportunity vanish in those areas and to see all these things happen in those areas, it must be particularly poignant to run into people who just are looking around as though their cheese has been literally moved. What happened in these towns? What happened in these communities? Yeah. It's incredibly sad. A number of things happened in these towns.

in these communities. First of all, trade deals, and both parties did really bad trade deals. These trade deals took away the soul of their communities, those centers of work. You would drive into a town like Youngstown. Youngstown-Ohost, a perfect example. In fact, we're coming up in a couple of days on the 45th anniversary of Black Monday. What's Black Monday? Black Monday is September 19th. The day It went 15,000 men, mostly men, lost their jobs up and down the Steel Valley, all in one day. All in one day. And the thing that always sort of hit me first, I was, I think, a senior in high school. The thing that hit me first is you didn't hear the hum of the machines anymore in town.

And to me, as a young person, I was like, that meant work. That meant people were, you know, people had jobs. and the kids I went to high school with, their dads had jobs. And everything changed at that moment. We've not only not recovered. Our government has done everything to make sure to make that punishment permanent in terms of not finding ways to bring back jobs of value. These were well-paying jobs.

They could send their kids off to a trade school or to college, where they could have a cottage up at Lake Erie, right? or a boat so they could go fishing. They did not have an extravagant life, but they had the middle class life, and it was very aspirational. And these communities were centered on the Little League games, the sandlot football games,

and the churches, the guilds that all sort of interwoven and make these communities so strong. And when they took away the heart of it, not only did they take away all those manufacturing jobs, but then the barber had to leave, because nobody's haircut to cut anymore. The machine shop that fixed everything, the car dealership. We wanted places from the inside out.

In our zest for technology and the push for college education, we've forced the young people out. All that is left are skeletons of these cities. Oh, God. In no way do I want to, in any way, diminish the importance of a job that pays. a wage that allows all of this to happen. I get that. But what happens to the conversation when you reduce work to nothing but this transactional deal between an employer and an employee? To me, and this goes to a labor management thing, we talked about it last week. I've probably lost a few friends as a result. But what I meant to say is that it just seems,

like when we talk about work and labor today, the only thing we talk about is the size of the paycheck. And when we do that, and it's important, but when we do that to the exclusion of all of the other things, then the door opens wide to conversations about universal basic income and all sorts of other things, all sorts of other things, that presuppose the notion that work is nothing but a paycheck. And that makes me nervous. Well, yeah, the things about manufacturing, if we just stick with manufacturing or we stick with coal or natural gas, the thing about those kinds of jobs, or a welder,

or the people to build bridges, build roads, right? They all view in different ways, but it always comes back that they feel patriotic. And people say, what do you mean patriotic? But I get it because they're doing something that's making their town better. It's making their neighborhood better. They're building the bridge that eventually the president of the United States is going to drive over when it comes to visit town, right? And they all were very cognizant of being part of something bigger than themselves.

And there was a lot of pride that went into that job. And that spilled over into the community. I can't even sort of emphasize enough how much these jobs weren't just jobs. There was this interwoven fabric that no matter what you did in this town, it was interlocking and interconnecting. And you were all part of something bigger than yourselves. Real quick, I think I can explain the thing you're talking around, or at least offer a theory. And it brings Jim back into the conversation, our classical music major, 30 grand in the hole who actually genuinely believes his debt is as legitimate as the cost of

putting in a road. You know, part of what's missing and part of what you're talking about is art. And before shop class was simply taken out of high schools overnight, it was called the vocational arts. And this kid, Jim, he probably saw himself as an artist for a time. as he was studying. And I'm not trying to make his case for him, but I do think it's interesting to point out that in the same way a man working on a bridge might take pride in the fact that the president

could one day traverse it. We also have a guy studying classical music who might one day sing the national anthem in a stadium where the president is seated. And that might be a place to sort of retry. trench to and say, look, when you take the art out of the vocation, all you're left with is the brute realities of the work in the same way that when you take the joy of work out of the labor, all you're left with is a paycheck. And I kind of feel like somewhere in all of this,

if you can draw a line for me, draw it between the banishment of Homek and shop class from high schools with this current level of disaffectation you write about every week. Oh, yeah. I mean, if HOMEX started falling off out of favor, probably mid-80s, right? That's when the collapse of the steel industry, a collapse in manufacturing in this country. And the edict that went out through the school counselors was, you're going to college. That's it. You're going to college.

Everybody's going to college. And there's all these incredibly talented artisans that don't fit in the college mold that want to go do this other thing. But this other thing, all those jobs are either gone or move seven states away and they can't be close to their family. And a lot of people just got lost. And when they got lost, they got stuck. And not only did we, you know, take those abilities to take a shop class, which or how much, or how much. Mech, by the way, do you know how many young people don't know how to write a check? They don't know how to write a check.

A lot of young people don't use checks anymore if they pay everything online. It's Venmo. It's, you know, tap the card. It's magic. Very uncomfortable with that. It's just like, where's my money going? I don't see it leaving. But also, even basic homemec, so you can know how to boil water and put pasta in there and cook.

Right? Those skills are incredibly important or knowing how to have a budget. Do you know how many young people don't? For an entire generation, didn't learn, oh, wait, I'm supposed to budget my money. I thought I'd just spend it until my paycheck was gone. And then I have to live on ramen noodles until the next paycheck. Like, there's no concept of a budget where the three of us probably grew up with our parents, like doing the budget every two weeks.

They laid it out on the dining room table, all their little envelopes with all their little, you know, their money for this, a lot for this and for that. And it worked. And we took that away from them. Now, there has been a resurgence and steering young people in particular in Appalachia towards the trades. Now, that has a lot to do with the natural gas industry, which, by the way, isn't just in Pennsylvania. It's, you know, Colorado, Texas, and New Mexico, right? Oklahoma. It's a boom in Oklahoma.

Right. This is like just this amazing industry that, by the way, has reduced our carbon footprint and does not exceed it. We have seen a resurgence. My young nephew Gianni is taking shop. In fact, he got admitted into a city school. There's now like this only a certain amount of people can go to certain schools. But because he had an interest in a trade, they took him. And so I see a light at the end of the time. And around here, natural gases also played a huge part in Votech. There is a high school in Waynesburg, Green County, Pennsylvania. They have a Votech program that if you get accepted into it as a sophomore, when you walk out of high school as a senior, you walk with your cap and gown on the stage,

out the door, and you are making $85,000 a year. And that is the poorest county in this state. And you are now able to buy a house that lives in a house that lives, that lives near your grandparents and your parents, and you are able to give back to your community. Those are the kinds of aspirational events that makes communities better and stronger, but also gives these young artisans

the ability to do their trade without feeling guilty because they didn't go to college. And by the way, look, your art, your craft is such a huge part of this as well. You must tell their stories, Selena. You must tell their stories. and these headlines must appear in giant fonts, and you must drip. You must drip upon the rest of the country as you're doing.

You've said artisans now a couple of times, and not to belabor the point, but I was struck listening as you talked about the way we used to have virtually three choices all of the time. NBC, ABC, ABC, CBS. Then comes Fox and you have four, right? MCI, AT&T, Sprint. Like, life is about three choices.

It's let's make a deal. One, two, and three. So many people are stuck today because somehow the third choice has vanished. And so what does the artisan do? The man or woman who didn't go to college, but who is nevertheless skilled, who approaches his or her work like an art, they don't fit in the uneducated column, and they don't fit in the post-baccaloariat column. So they get lost. And as you were talking about that, I was thinking here in California, we've waged the war on jobbers, on freelancers, the gig economy, which I think is terrific because it opens the door to entrepreneurship and freelance. But that column has been eliminated.

Here now you either own a business, making you a greedy, rapacious capitalist, or you're an employee, making you basically an oppressed class. there's no middle ground for somebody with a very specific kind of ambition to occupy and maneuver from. It seems to me that Appalachia, of all places, is one of the best examples where the middle ground has just vanished. Yeah, that's very sad. Shameless Plug! Long before she was Peggy Rowe, my mom was Peggy Noble. daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble.

It was her father, Carl, who inspired me to pitch a show called Dirty Jobs to the Discovery Channel and later start a foundation that honored the kind of work Carl Noble did for a living, trade work, skilled labor. That foundation is called MicroWorks, and today I'm proud to tell you that we've helped thousands of people get the training they need to begin a career in the skilled trades. In fact, we'd love to help you. You can apply for a work ethic scholarship right now at Microwworks.com. We've set aside $10 million for this year's applicants, thanks to a number of very effective

fundraisers, including the one with my grandfather's name on the label. I refer, of course, to Noble Tennessee Whiskey, K-N-O-B-E-L, which is now available in a variety of delicious mash bills, all of which you can peruse at noblespirates.com. In fact, if you spend $100 and use code Carl, C-A-R-L, you. You'll get one tube of orange bitter-infused sugar cubes for free. That's Code Carl with a C to get nine sugar cubes, ingeniously engineered, to make nine perfect old-fashions every time. It's my favorite way to support Microworks and my favorite whiskey to sip responsibly

after a long day of interviewing people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirits.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-P-R-E-L-Pirits.com. May the nobleman come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. I just got back from driving across the country. I do that twice a year. I usually do vertical and then a horizontal.

I will tell you that these trips, again, took a back road. I took a road. Let me tell you about this one road in Colorado. It was only 39 miles long, and yet it took me three and a half. hours to drive it. Why? Because it was all dirt and it was all over the side of the mountain. And I wasn't quite sure I was going to end up over the side of the mountain. But I always meet the most inspirational and aspirational people on these trips. And I come back feeling refreshed and feel hope. Because the people that make this country work, that do those small entrepreneurial things that you're talking about,

like the guy I met who's a gunsmith. This is my favorite. I shouldn't say favorite because it's awful. I'm going to be writing about this. Do you know how hard it is to get a bank loan to start a business to be a gunsmith? Well, I think that would depend somewhat on what state you're in, but by and large, I'm going to go with difficult. Yeah. Even in my state, it's almost impossible.

You want to sell guns? I don't think so. Not in our country. Do you want to make drill bits for the natural gas? industry, I'm sorry. We're not going to give you a loan. I have a big piece coming out about that. We are punishing entrepreneurs, people who contribute to our country. We are punishing them because they're not adhering to the social justice and the climate justice corporate and banking ideology. I am stunned by this. Now, these people are finding ways to just start their business just in their

garage in their house, just in a small building they put in the back of their house because the banking industry is refusing to give them loans because they're not social justice conformist. That brings up an interesting point about people with money who are not giving loans. Who gave Jim a loan to go to school? Right, right. Why didn't they say, hey, are you really going to be able to make this money back? We have a loan system for education that doesn't put any consideration into the fact that not a social justice cause or anything, an economic equation. Just what's the cost benefit?

If a classical music degree costs this, how much can your average musical classicist expect to make with that degree? Exactly. That's a question that is never asked. Not allowed to ask that. It used to be before the federal government got involved in. in the student loan program. It used to be when private money was going to loan, you had to sit across the table from someone who looked you over and said,

geez, I don't know if French literature is really, I don't know if I can loan you $100,000 to study that. And somebody would say no, but no one says no. You can study anything you want. You can study why Seinfeld is funny. There are classes. Let me know if you figure that one out. What is the deal with Seinfeld?

It's not bad. Chuck's an artist, you see. It's really his only skill. My degree paid off. To your point, it was the community bank that gave the loan. It was a guy who sat in the pew next to your dad, shoulder to shoulder, or collected the money or was your little league coach, right? Like, your banker knew you.

That's why I go to a very small bank, very tiny bank. My bank knows me. I know my bank. Man, this is a whole other thing. Selena, because you know what, I mean, it's very difficult. Chuck, you teed it up and you'll probably regret this based on what I'm about to say. Oh, no. Here we go. Well, when you look at Freddie and Fannie Mac, right, and you look at what happens with the student loans and how they get bundled and how they get sold, right? They get sold way, way. You know, I think David Sedaris wrote a really funny story where he talks about Freddie and Fannie Mac. They sound like your wacky uncle and your aunt somewhere, kind of rich and eccentric and they're here to help you out. No. No, they are faceless pimps and thieves who live at the end of a long plastic hallway in the middle of some towering glass edifice in Kansas, right? Well, hello, mortgage-backed securities.

I mean, what the hell do we think really happened back in 2008? We were telling people that if they were living in an apartment, they were essentially being abused. And there was no reason. You deserve a house. There's no reason why anyone shouldn't have a home. Never mind the redlining, never mind the racial stuff. I get it. I understand I'm painting with a broad brush.

But the argument, Selena, the argument that everybody deserves and needs to live in a home is not so askance from everybody deserves and needs to have a four-year degree. And once you convince the individual that there's some sort of truth in that mumbo-jumbo, then the money will flow until it blows up in our faces. And we got guys like Jim who don't know what to do with $30,000 a red ink. It kills me. The entitlement that so many people have, like, I'm entitled to go to college. I'm entitled to own a house where I brought my kids up like, you earn.

You want a house? Fine. Earn enough money to buy a house. Don't buy a house that's outside of your league. don't buy this extravagant whatever the case may be. And that's how I was brought up as well. But everybody, this is an entitlement world. You're entitled to that house.

It doesn't matter if you can't afford it. It doesn't matter if you don't pay your mortgage. You are entitled to that. I can't find any sympathy for the person you just described. But I don't want to pile on. So where can I offer some sympathy, right? Maybe it's in the fact that this guy, Jim, maybe, I mean, he says he really didn't see any other options. And look, personally, beyond my

ranting, I do believe that the pressure we've put on a generation of kids is unspeakable. And it's coming from all sides, Selena. Teachers, parents, peers, guidance counselors are getting bonus based on the number of kids in their charge who wind up going to college as opposed to trade schools. So if you're a 17-year-old, never mind the entitlement. The entitlement will come later if it comes at all. Just think about the pressure. Where is the voice of reason? Where is the person going, hey, easy there, sparky. Let's do a little cost-benefit analysis. So I understand, in the absence of that, people who look at their giant student debt today are going to put their hand out and say, look, I got sold a bill of goods. So somebody somewhere helped me. I understand that.

But I do too, Mike. I'm glad that you brought it up because that's kind of what I was getting at with the idea of no one is there to say, is this really good idea? The cost benefit. No one's there to measure that and put it out in front of you. And I'm not saying that the people who are signing for these loans are victims or anything of the kind, but I am saying that they were pressured by teachers, guidance counselors, parents, who all said, go to college, go to college, go to college, you can't do anything with your life unless you go to college.

You can't do anything with your life unless you go to college. Okay, how do I go to college? Sign here, okay. And they got themselves in without thinking those things through. I'm not saying that they're not responsible, but I think there's a bigger Uncle Sam type person to share some blame here. How about the university, Selena?

How about $50 billion in endowments at Harvard? I mean, why do we go to the taxpayer first? Yes. Yeah. It's absolutely insane. And let's step back and look at my profession for a minute. The best journalist I have ever worked with never went to college. They were just really good writers and really knew how to find the story.

Tell me about that person. Who specifically are you talking about? My editor at the Trib years ago, Sandy Tolliver, she didn't go to college. I have never worked under a better editor in my entire career. And I saw her work her way up from being the cops reporter and then covering school boards and then covering City Hall and then working her way into being the city desk editor until eventually becoming one of the managing editors in the newspaper. And she had gut and she had instinct and she knew how to tell a story and take the BS out when the BS needed to be taken out. And she doesn't get hired today.

She doesn't get hired today, Selena. No, she doesn't. She doesn't have a degree. Most newspapers require an Ivy League degree. I feel like screaming, Chuck. You might? Go ahead. Damn it.

So, I mean, it's just so it's so heartbreaking when you think of, you think of. about the waste of talent, the number of people today who could be in relative terms in any number of companies who are just like Sandy Tolliver, who have smarts, ambition, natural talent, gumption, and a work ethic to beat the band. Those people today, I'm sorry to have to say it like this, but they are under assault. They are not valued. They are not sought, they are not encouraged, and they are not rewarded. People say to us all the time, work ethic scholarships, why? Well, because who else is doing it? How do we find the next Sandy Tolliver? That's what every employer worth her or his salt should be asking themselves today.

To this day, if she reads a story of mine and she pretty faithfully does and sends me a note and says, good job zito because i was always she was the kind of boss where you wanted to do a really good job and she is in my head like she occupies a space in my head every day when i write even though i don't answer to her anymore why hey wait a minute that's my job the best from me and so when i get a note like i did about my star art the story that you were in mike she was like good job zita i'm like Thank you, Jesus. Isn't that funny? Yeah, nothing like a good atta boy or at a gal, I should say.

From and Chuck, this is the thing. Adaboys get cheapened when they come from sources you neither respect nor admire. Yeah. It has to come from somebody who earned your trust. And how do they do that? You know, how does a woman like Sandy To Oliver, It's an honest question. How does anybody earn that level of respect? The level of respect that you feel for her, what did she do along the way to really engender that in you? I bet it wasn't a whole bunch of out of boys. Oh, no. I was terrified. Yeah, right. It was more like, are you kidding me? Really?

I was terrified. I was like, is my lead good? Do I have enough sources? Did I spell that right? I'm the best reporter in the world because I'm dyslexic. So I'm always turning things inside out. I was terrified to get it wrong. You know what, guys, this program has drained my battery. Can I plug my computer? Oh, yeah, for God's sakes. I'm just getting over. Just do it. I was like, oh. Super quick. Yeah, you better take care of that. Yeah, go. Go plug yourself in. She's awesome. We love Selena. Zito. She's such a good reporter. She shuts a good interview. She literally nearly talked her battery right into extinction right now. I'm glad she saw that. And you vanished for a while, Chuck.

I could hear you, but I couldn't see you. Is that right? Just so you know. Yeah. Yeah, you are looking at. Is that your hutch I'm looking at? This is a set she's built just for this podcast. You know what, dude?

The woman travels constantly. There's no reason for me to assume that you're home. Oh, you know what? That's fair. There you go. Sorry about that. That was great theater. So when I talk about artisans, one of my favorite places in, one of those about an hour outside of Western Pennsylvania in Nile, West Virginia is Fiesta Ware. Are you familiar with Fiesta Wear at all?

It sounds like fancy underpants, but tell me more. This is beautiful, colorful. Can you see the dishes? Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. And you can see all the colors over there. They're a famous, like famous in the last pot. in America. It's the last American manufacturing pottery in America. And I went in there and watched them make everything. These are true artisans. They love what they do. My favorite part was how you pronounced C-O-L-O-R. Oh. Keller. Oh, yeah. These Kellers over here, these bright colors.

It's my one answer word. I try to never say that one. Kailers. Beautiful killers. I honestly didn't pick it up, Chuck. I thought there was a hiccup in the audio. That's actually what she sounds like when she says. I'm going to go. I have shame.

You're not going anywhere. I love it. I love it. It's actually the perfect observation to make, given the fact that we're 56 minutes into this thing. These artisans you're talking about who are working for the last pottery makers in the nation at Fiestaware. Yeah.

I wonder how many of them have four-year degrees. Not many. Not at all. I have done several. I'll send you guys a story or if people go to Salinasio. com, there's a ton of stories

about Fiestaware because I have a slight obsession. They've been around since 1875. They're East Liverpool, Ohio. Newell, West Virginia, right there. And at one time,

East Liverpool, Ohio was the pottery cap of the world. 300 different pottery companies were located in that town. Now there's just one. No kidding. There's very few people there that have a degree. They make a good living there.

They work hard. The plant is the exact same plant that it was in the 1890s. Have you ever seen a wooden brick floor? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's so awesome. That was to keep their feet. And it's covered in creosote.

so, you know, we'll catch on fire. Yeah. But there is such pride in every piece, every dish. If you have any Fiestaware listeners, I suspect you will, people are going to go crazy that I'm talking about this because it's like a cult. I'll tell you what happened last time you came on here, all kinds of crap blew up.

Oh, no. My guess is Fiestaware is going to get bombarded. I'm guessing fiestaware.com. Friends, you heard it here. If you want to really dive into some one-of-a-kind, pottery and some amazing keelers, then you want to go over there to Fiesta Wear. Keller, it's Keller, Mike. Keller.

I'm never saying it's public again. Never. Selina, since you brought up your website, salinazito.com, that's s-a-l-E-N-A-Z-I-T-O.com. I understand you got a few subscribers after the last time you were on the podcast. You got a final tally on that? $219,000. Holy crap. That was awesome.

I think we had that many listeners. Your listeners are really like, they send me notes, they email, like, oh, I love that story. I'm like, oh, I live there. It's just, it's very engaging. I have three full-time jobs. I am a daily reporter for the Washington Examiner. I am a colonist for the New York Post, and I'm also a columnist for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. So you can find all my stuff there.

Well, I'll tell you what else you are. You're my mom's friend. I love your mom. I would be remiss if I didn't thank you and encourage our listeners to go read the article you wrote about Peggy Row with your help. Vacuuming in the nude and other ways to get attention. Wound up, I'd like to say on the top of the New York Times list,

but their bestseller list doesn't really rank bestsellers. She sold more than anybody else on the list and came in at number 11. But she's always a bestseller to me. I hope she didn't take too much of your time. because she can get pretty mouthy. She was awesome. We talked for like an hour and 20 minutes.

Oh, my God. I took a different approach with her story. I talked a little bit about the book, but mostly I just talked about her. Her life. I think her life story is really interesting. And that's the kind of storytelling I like to do. Bring the reader into the living room

with the person that I'm interviewing and feel like they're set in a spell, right? And they're just talking back and forth, the app and chewing the fat, whatever you want to call it. And that's how I tried to present the story with your mom. And she was a blast. And I really, really enjoyed her a lot. Your dad was very funny too.

He did to know how to turn on the stove while we were interviewing, which was adorable. And she's like, he's not really good in the kitchen. And I put that in the story because that's part of who she is, right? Let's be like there's an obligation when I tell a story. is to put everything in there and let the reader sort of drink it in and understand the people that I have the honor to interview. Well, Selena, that's only the hardest thing in the world to do. And I'm not great at it.

I love to sum up. I love to connect the dots. But great writers, in my view, and for that matter, maybe even especially great journalists, they don't connect the dots. They just put the dots out there and give us room. they give us room to form an opinion, make a conclusion. I don't mind being led, but I don't want to be lectured and I don't want to be scolded. And even on a Sunday, I don't really want a sermon. I like what you did with my mom's article also because you captured the thing that's under her success,

which everybody talks to me about work ethic. They should be talking to her because she did this. She wrote every day for 60 years before she really got the time of day. To see a reporter of your caliber paying attention to that across three platforms, you're welcome on this podcast anytime. The federal government is not going to close America's skills gap. They have an important role to play for sure, but if we're serious about reinvigorating the skilled trades on a national level,

We need more organizations like Skills USA making a real difference on a local level. These guys have been around since 1965, and today they are relevant like never before with hundreds of chapters in schools all over the country and hundreds of thousands of students participating and competing every year. Nobody is doing more to train the next generation of skilled workers than Skills USA. And I'm encouraging you to at least consider being a part of the this movement. Skills USA advisors and volunteers aren't just teaching trades. They're launching careers and strengthening the backbone of our country by mentoring the next generation of industry leaders.

In high school, you could be among the people who are making this movement explode. Join the skilled trades movement. Support career and technical education programs through Skills USA. There's no better way to do it. You can volunteer at a local chapter. You can start a chapter in your own town. Or you can just go to their website and see the impact for yourself and see too how easy it is to get involved. Thousands of kids are being introduced to the trades in a way that's absolutely positively moving the needle. The goal is a million members by 2030. I think it's doable. I'm doing what I can to help them. Learn more at skillsusa.org slash mic. That's skillsusa.org slash Mike. I'm talking

Skills, U.S. Skills, U.S.S.S.S. USA. There's a brightness in your mom, right? There's a brightness that isn't directing a light at you, but draws you towards her. And I

think that is her great gift. And I doubt that she lectured you about work ethic. However, I believe that she showed you. And that's what I try to bring out in the story. She didn't tell you to, I suspect. She didn't nag you about it.

She led by example. And that brightness, that thing in her, I think is what makes her incredibly special. She's a great storyteller, but also that she impacts other people. Well, like you, and maybe to some extent, me, the real reason I wanted to talk to you for the first time was that in the non-neuxie, was that in the non-neuxie, fiction world, dirty jobs, was pretty unique in the sense that I never really weighed in on anything until I tried it. I thought that George Plimpton, a man of letters, actually, did a great job of immersing himself in the story before he formed an opinion. You do the same thing. My mom does the same thing. And I think I realize now the longer I live, the more impressed I am

with people who actually go to where the story is, go to where the work is, who walk a mile in the shoes, right, before they write a Yelp review under the footwear section. Yeah. I'm glad you're doing that. Thank you. Some of the most poignant places that I've been, we're probably not very remarkable to other people.

But when you go in that elevator and you go 1,200 feet under the ground and you go back seven miles and you cross over three, states to go to the coal wall, just so that piece of coal in seven hours can be turning the light on at your church, you really appreciate the people that do those jobs. Wow. Those people are the reason your lights are on today. Those people are the reason why you can go into the store or the county courthouse or to your church.

And so if I don't do it, if I just sit in front of a computer and write about it, that I don't have all those tangible experiences to write about. The other place that I love to go, I have this series coming out after the election on these lost notes from Baptist churches, which is just an amazing story. I still have a lot more reporting to do on it. Tell me, though, what I'm all in, lost notes from Baptist churches. It's this music that hasn't, outside of some of these Baptist churches in Maryland and Virginia and all the way down south, these very old churches, both Black Baptist and White Baptist churches, outside of that congregation, nobody has heard this incredible music.

It's the way the notes are used. And these hymnals date back to the 18th century, and these congregations are carrying on that tradition, and they're not letting it get lost. It's almost like a lost language. except it's music. Tell me more. Like, are you talking about a note that's not on the petatonic scale, not ABCD, EFG,

something in between that's not even a half step, but some quarter tone, something like that? Yes. Really? Yeah. I've heard of this, Chuck. It's super. It's not like throat singing, which is its own crazy thing, but it's its own thing. And it doesn't sound like anything else you've ever heard before.

No, it doesn't. I get goosebumps just talking about it. When I first walked it, I love to go to different churches. I am a practicing Catholic. My faith is incredibly important to me. But I was taught long ago by Sister Mary Grace at Holy Ghost Academy. You should learn about other religions. It only makes your faith stronger.

And so in my reporting, I always tried to go to a different church or a temple or whatever. Baptists have always fascinated me just because when I walk out there, I'm like, I have so much Jesus in me right now. Like, oh my God. I have four hours of Jesus. And everyone's singing and crying and it's amazing. Yeah. And so I just happened upon this.

So I'm doing a lot of research. It's going to take me months to write the story. I can't wait. There'll be music. There'll be video. There'll be, I'm so excited about it. Is there a place people could go online right now and listen to an example of what you're talking about?

Because I... No? No. That's why it's probably lost. Lost notes from Baptist churches. Not until I write the story. All right. All right.

I got it. Forward to that. You know what? I did find... I will send you a link to one YouTube thing that I did find. Now that I think about that, it's kind of fuzzy, but it does capture it. But the person that was taking the video was not very good at it. So they're like bouncing around.

music. It's a thing though, Chuck. You can take a real deep dive on YouTube with old gospel quartets. There's so many of them. And you can see the impact they had in Appalachia for sure, but all over the country. I mean, it's a giant rabbit hole. You'll spend a lot of time in it, but I have not gone down the Baptist Church thing. I can't wait.

I can't wait to do this story. I'm pretty excited about that. That and I have a story. about moonshine coal. People doing illegal coal mines. That's pretty funny. I love it. Moonshine coal. And there is a big difference between going down an elevator and a coal mine and crawling in a hole. Let me just tell you. I was like, I really don't want to do this. I didn't. I didn't want to do it. Western Pennsylvania, we went to, let's see, bituminous, we did anthracite, went down a couple of of miles that, I mean, it's, I can't think of anything, Selena, that has been such a whipsaw

of emotion and public from respect to approbation. Yes. Right? Coal miners were heroes. Yes. In our lifetimes. They were widely recognized as the people who made civilized life possible for the rest of us. and my God, how far of those people fall?

And now they need to learn to code. Yeah, now they need to learn to code. That's right. Oh, they are considered literally an enemy in our culture. And man, these guys work hard and they're proud and women. I had one woman in the story. She was the only woman coal miner and she was pregnant. And she was going down that coal mine.

And those guys, man, they had her back. Oh, yeah. They had her back. And I just absolutely just loved that whole sense of community that these guys have. It was a Harvey mine in Washington County and Western Pennsylvania. Rothamel was the guy I knew. Steve Rothamel, he was on dirty jobs. And, you know, third generation coal miner and the things you can learn.

I wish when you were talking to my mom, you would told her about your church thing. because when my brothers and I went to her, I was 12, maybe 13, just rebellious as hell. And I'd been gone to the church. Her dad built the church I grew up in, Boy Scout meetings in the basement, Lenton dinners every Wednesday night, weddings. All of it. Well, what she didn't tell you was that I went to her one day and I'm like, Mom, I've had it. You know, I'm 12 years old.

There's really not much more for me to learn in this life being very wise and prescient. And I've made some decisions regarding my personal. faith in my own journey and I'm done with this, okay? I'm just done with this. At 12, yeah, because I was very smart, Salina, you see, I mean, I knew everything it was to know, no, 12. And my dad said, look, kiddo, that's not on the list of things you can choose to do. Now, if you don't want to be a reformed Presbyterian, and if you don't want to go to Kenwood United Presbyterian, that's fine, but you're going to go somewhere. And so it was my mother who stepped in. And for a summer, my brothers and I went on the great try it out religion.

If religion were a thing that money could buy, the rich would live and the poor would die. That's the first song I sang in a Baptist church in like 1974. That's awesome. I swear to God. And then the next Sunday we'd go, what are these Lutherans up to? What about the Methodists?

What about the Catholics? All the stooping and the kneeling and the stuff. And we did all that. But my favorite, not to hijack the conversation, but have you been to a Unitarian Church? Oh, yes. Oh, my God. Chuck, this one was up in like, oh, up in Hunt Valley somewhere.

So we're up in the county. We're in horse country. It's like 68 degrees on a Sunday morning. The windows are open. The cool breeze is blowing in off a cornfield. Everybody's, it's a party. And the open, the woman, there's a woman who's the preacher, right? Remember, it's 1974.

So I'm like, what is that? Whoa. What is this? She walks out and says, Please turn to hymn number 49 in your hymn books, 49. And the congregation commences to singing, Oh, what a beautiful morning from Oklahoma. No, shall we gather at the river?

No near my God to thee. No old rugged cross. The Unitarians went with, There's a bright golden haze on the mouth. Unbelievable. And I loved it. I'm like, oh, my God, religion with musical theater, I'm in. It's your summer of, what is it, bar hopping, church hopping, go.

Where do you end up? Yeah. Well, it culminated myself and my entire family now are Scientologists. That's what happened. I'm kidding, of course. No. I tried to keep my poker face. Good job.

Good job, Selena. It wasn't for me, the Scientology thing. I gave them a look. Wasn't for me. Okay, Duke. What's the name of the planet? Nobody's supposed to know, Chuck? The ultimate...

Xenon? Is Zon? It's pretty close to Zito, which I think is a pretty good place to end this. Selina Zion, taking her career in a bold new direction. Scientology. Yay! I actually went in... They have like this...

I was in D.C. I forget. It was 2008, right before the election. And I was like, I don't forget what I was covering. I hated going to D.C. They had this big, they remember this open house. And it was the Scientology office. And I'm like, ah, you know, I've tried everything else.

I'll just go in and see what's going on. Those people are weird. I'm sorry. You've said so many things that we've got a normal person canceled in the last 90 minutes. So canceled. Instead, you'll get a thousand more people to sign up for selinaZito.com. Yeah. Honestly, go there. The woman writes fairly fearlessly. She travels all over the place. I really appreciate you doing what you're doing. Thanks for throwing my mom a bone there. That was awesome. And more importantly, keep telling the stories of the people we used to venerate, but now disparage. I think it's rather important. Thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. I love your show on Fox. I watched one the other repeat the other night because I didn't see it the first time with the North Carolina policeman.

Oh, yeah. That was really good. Wilmington, North Carolina. That was the first episode of season two. We all sat down and we were like, look, this thing's a hit. How America works, Fox Business. We've got a new season coming up, but we were like, what do you want to do? And I said, honestly, this time, I don't know that there's ever been a tougher time to be a cop.

Let's just be a fly on the wall with some good cops and see how the week is. And Fox Business was like, absolutely, let's do it. and we got the thing on the air. And I've heard from so many cops, I mean, I don't have to tell you this. You know, when you write honestly and fairly about people who willingly put on a uniform, whether it's to mine coal or run into a burning building or protect and serve, you hear from them. They appreciate it.

Yeah, I love the show. I really enjoy it. I sometimes just like scoot into bed, put it on because they run it back to back on, I think it's Sunday nights. I think it's Mondays. Monday nights, whatever. Monday night. But you probably DVR it.

Look, the important thing is you're in bed watching me. All right. If there's a better way to end this. There's so canceled. Yeah. Don't worry. I'm going to cut all this out. Don't worry about it.

Yeah. He's going to cut it into the open is what he's going to do. Yeah, I know. He's going to lead with this. Make sure you lead with me saying C-O-L-O-R. Keeler. I'm never saying that word yet. Keller.

Keller. Can't say it. We got to go, but one. last thanks to Sandy Tulliver for setting the bar high in a way that made old Selena jump for it. We appreciate that too. All right. Adios. Thanks, guys. If you like what you heard and even if you don't, won't you please, won't you please,

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