The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 276: Clint Hill & Lisa McCubbin Hill—Best Road Trip Ever

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

Clint Hill, a former member of the Secret Service, and his wife Lisa McCubbin Hill talk about their new book, My Travels with Mrs. Kennedy, which includes tales of bringing a Pakistani horse into the US without quarantine, what The Crown got wrong about Mrs. Kennedy's lunch with Queen Elizabeth II, and Clint and Mrs. Kennedy eating Moroccan mahjoun in Marrakech. Spoiler alert—Mahjoun is essentially a hash brownie.

It's the way I heard it. Episode number, where are we? 276. Yes. This one's called. Go ahead, Chuck. Tell him. The best road trip ever.

You like The, do we really need to clutter it up with an article? Or can it just be best road trip ever? Well, the last time that we had these guests on it was episode 239, the best business card in history. Yeah. And I remember saying at the time, does it have to be the best business card in history? Just best business card in history. You were probably right. All right. Well, you know what? What do you want to call it?

Let's call it best road trip ever. No one has time anymore to get bogged down with unnecessary words or listen to unnecessary banter like this. I just scratched out the the. You're good to go. Well, okay. In the words of Charles Thompson, you could scratch it back in. But remember him? No. What's that from? Charles Thompson was the secretary of the Second Continental Compton. Congress. 1776.

That's a lot. Yes. Right. And they're arguing over the slavery issue, I think, something. And he's like, you know, so he agrees to scratch it out. And then they argue. They're like, no, no, we're going to leave it in. And they say, put it back in, Mr. Thompson.

And he says, I just scratched it out. And Jefferson says, scratch it back in. Or maybe it was Adams. That's neither here or there, my friends. Best Road Trip Ever is an alternative title for a terrific book called My Travels, with Mrs. Kennedy. And that book is written by my friend, Clint Hill, and Lisa McCubbin Hill. If it sounds at all familiar, well, it's probably because they've been guests on here before.

Clint Hill, to those of you who don't know, is a former Secret Service agent. He'll be 91 years old next month, I think. He's guarded five U.S. presidents in his life, one of whom was Kennedy. and he was ultimately assigned to guard Jackie Kennedy. He's the guy who dove on the Cadillac moments after the president was assassinated way back 22 November, 1963. He's back on the podcast now because, well, he's my neighbor and he's a living legend. And this new book for the first time doesn't really deal with the day that's defined him. it deals with, as the title might suggest, the best road trip ever.

And be honest, dude, when he's talking about that trip around the world, what would you have given to switch places with him? Oh, whatever I had. I mean, it really is amazing. They went everywhere, Paris, Morocco, India, London, Italy, everywhere, across the globe and did the most amazing things. And he was charged with her safety. and they developed quite a friendship.

And it's evident in this book. It's evident by the pictures in this book. That's something that's amazing, too, is that this book is filled with pictures that have never been seen before. And these pictures contain captions, sometimes written by Mrs. Kennedy, sometimes written by President Kennedy.

And it all started with them opening up an old trunk that was in the basement. That's the thing that hooks me. And that's the thing that's going to hook everybody else as well. Clint's a complicated guy. He'll tell you, and we kind of get into it toward the end of this, but he's suffered for many years from PTSD. He's seen by millions and millions of people as a hero, including me, because he did everything he could on that terrible day. But the president still lost his life, and part of Clinton has never been able to let himself off the hook for that.

In fact, this whole odyssey started when Lisa was ransacking their homes, looking for the medal that Clint was awarded for bravery on that. that day. I mean, what else do you need to know? The guy does not want a medal for bravery. He still thinks he let his country down. And in the course of that search, they come across this trunk. And this trunk says something like property of the White House on top. Right. It says Clinton J. Hill, White House. White House, right. So it's basically an old steamer trunk filled with mementos and photos and all sorts of things that Clint either didn't want to keep or didn't want to remember. member. And so he locked him away in a trunk. And his wife finds the trunk and they open it together. And they go through this treasure trove of stuff. And that's really what it is, Chuck. This is a treasure chest.

Yep. Filled with things that wind up in this book called My Travels with Mrs. Kennedy. Full disclosure, I'm trying to sell some books for him. But that's not why they're on the podcast. They're on the podcast because Clint Hill is one of the most interesting people I know. And there's some things in the book that are really revelatory. He has some really important things to say, I believe, to anybody who's ever suffered from PTSD. But more than that, he just has a life that, I mean, can you imagine, here's the pitch. Hey, Mike, hey, Chuck, here's what we need you to do. All right. We need you to guard one of the most beautiful women in the world, one of the most popular women. in the world. You're going to go around the world. Here's a gun and you're going to need to do some

things along the way. Like facilitate the shipping of a horse. It's from thousands of miles from Pakistan to this country. Oh, and there's going to be some hash brownies too. So hang on. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a trip. You got anything else you want to add? Because I'm about to land this plane. No, man. Land it. Let's get to it. It's a great conversation. It's really good. And it's a great book. I say that all the time. I know you do. But you know what? People still believe. leave you for now. My travels with Mrs. Kennedy. It's awesome. And my friends, Clint and Lisa Hill, coming up right after this. I did not see that coming. Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest

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text, and data on a blazing fast network for just 3499 a month really is an unmitigated bargain from an American wireless company that keeps all their customer service in this country, supports our veterans in a meaningful way, as well as the MicroWorks Foundation, and allows me to exploit my own mother in a national advertising campaign. my mom did, get yourself unlimited high-speed data for just 3499 a month at puretalk.com slash row. You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure Talk. Hey, Clint, look what I got. Oh, one of the best cups ever. I know. I stopped by your house this morning. I was out on my walk and I looked up. I was right there. So your wife let me in and gave me a

coffee mug. That's very good. We're very kind and generous. You are giving people. She also gave me this. Oh, book. She gave me a book, and it's filled with amazing pictures and stories of a great, well, you know, I'm just going to say it, a legend. You know, I think I might have called you a legend last time, or Lisa, did I call him an icon? I was sucking up pretty good. I might have called you both. Icon hero, legend. American hero, I believe it was. Was it? Well, you know, you are definitely both things, Clint. You're certainly an American and in the eyes of a whole lot of people. You're a hero. I doubt you see yourself that way because you're unfailingly modest, as all North Dakotans are. But let's do the small talk thing. You're coming up on 91. How's it going? Pretty good. I have my problems. But see, I'm tied to an oxygen tube. So that's a little bit of a hindrance. And that's from C.O. When I was 19 years old, I knew everything there wasn't to know in the world.

I began smoking cigarettes, and I did that until I was 50 years old, 1982. I am now suffering the consequences of that. When did you realize that you actually didn't know everything in the world? When I became 50, I guess. So you were ahead of most people? Oh, yeah, by far. Lisa, has it dawned on you yet that you don't know everything in the world, or are you still laboring under that assumption? No, no, no.

I was never under that impression, except, well, maybe when I was about 20, I guess. Clint now, I think he does know everything in the world. I mean, he's just like an encyclopedia, but even better than that, he's a living encyclopedia because anything that happens or we see, I'll ask him about it. And invariably, he'll say, oh, yeah, I know about that. I was actually there. It must be super annoying to sit down with your husband and watch a documentary or some sort of historical thriller like The Crown or any number of other things. He must be a delight to watch it. Interesting, because we actually have just started rewatching the Crown.

We watched it when it first came out, I guess, and now we started rewatching it. And just like last week, we watched the episode when Mrs. Kennedy, Jacqueline Kennedy, at the time the first lady, had lunch with the queen. And they portrayed that on Netflix. And Clint went berserk. They portrayed that she actually met with the queen prior to the luncheon at Windsor Castle. Unfortunately for the queen, we were in India and Pakistan until the 26th. of March. We flew from Karachi to Tehran, saw the Shaw's sister, flew on to London, stayed overnight,

went to have lunch with the queen. The next day, we never saw or approached Windsor Castle. We went to the main house, the big house. Buckingham Palace. Buckingham Palace. I knew there had to be a name for it. The big house. Big outs.

We went into something quite different here. To see the queen. That whole segment was based on somebody's dream or something. It never happened. It was ridiculous. I would just, I would give it terrible. After watching it, he went back actually and go, I'm going to look this up. I'm going to look at my notes.

I remember going to Winter Castle, and we didn't go to Winter Castle, and he was just, why do they have to do this? Why does Hollywood have to make stuff up? The real story is good enough, isn't it? You'd think so. Well, you would think so. I mean, obviously, we're going to dive into your latest book in a second, but I am interested, really, as a man of your experience,

to sit down in front of the TV, to look at something that misses the mark. I mean, has it always annoyed you to see people get it wrong, or has it become more annoying to you as you continue to mature? It's become more annoying to me. in the later years. But it's always been annoying, but I mean, I can't understand why they can't do it right properly and honestly.

And they've got to make this stuff up, and to me it's nonsensical. What's the other thing that really annoys you when we're watching television these days? Oh, language. They assume that in 1962 or 65 or whatever back in the 50s, we spoke using a certain word. The F word. Then, like they do now. I mean, you never heard that word in a conversation.

And when you did, usually you didn't want anything to do with the person that was using the word. It was shocking, I'm sure. It was absolutely shocking. Now, I mean, the other night, we were watching something, and I started to count. In the first three minutes, I think it was like 25 times they used it that word. Seriously? And I thought, is that the only word they know not in Hollywood? Well, I mean, it does work in a lot of different ways, Clint, right?

It works as a noun. It works as a verb. You can use it as an adjective. You have to admit it is an ugly, vulgar term, but from a rhetorical perspective, there's an awful lot of utility in the F word. Well, we managed to get along without it for many, many years. Well, tell me that. Which president, if it's not, I don't want you to reveal anything you shouldn't reveal.

But which president had the greatest potty mouth of all time? Can I take a guess? I was going to say Johnson. It's got to be Johnson, right? It was vulgar. And he would say things that I always thought were inappropriate in front of people that he shouldn't have said them to. That's the part that bothered me more than anything.

He'd say things in front of women that I didn't think should have been said. It must have been very strange to have to stand there and bite your tongue. I mean, honestly, that's kind of the story of your life, right? You've guarded five presidents. I'll bet not a day went by where you didn't have to literally bite your tongue. Your job was to not talk about the very things we're talking about. That's very true. My job was to keep quiet, stay in the shadows.

And your job, Lisa, as an investigative reporter and a co-author, and now the wife of, in some ways, it seems like, has been to get in there, to shake the memories loose, to get him to talk about not only things that he never wanted to talk to. And look, this is really the place where I want to begin, right? Clint Hill is a very private person. Jackie Kennedy was a very, very private person. And Clint went from a guy who swore, took a vass.

He would never write a book. He would never talk about these things. He would keep it inside. And then it changed. Then we found that, you know what, you were a part of history, and the books that you guys wrote together delved in to that. And then you became so closely associated with one single moment in time that it's almost like you were typecast in a way.

And now you've come out with this book, which is just so great. I mean, there's barely a mention in it of the assassination, but the pictures, Lisa, and the stories that accompany them, reveal an awful lot. This thing is, I don't even want to call it a picture book, even though it's jammed with pictures, because it's full of a lot of things that I didn't know,

and I'm guessing a lot of other people didn't know either. It is, it's true. And, Mike, you know, we actually never had any intention of writing another book. We both thought Clint had told all of the stories that, you know, he could remember. And then what happened was in 2019, we went back to Alexandria, Virginia, where he owned a home where he had lived for almost 50 years, right? And hadn't been there for about 10 years and decided it was time to sell the house.

And yet it was still filled with stuff. and he wanted to call 1-800 got junk and just do it all in one swoop. And I said, you know, maybe we should go in there and see there might be something of value. And thank God we did, right? I was wrong in wanting to put it in the hands of the local garbage heap. But what specifically did you find, Lisa? Well, one of the first things we found in the garage, I was cleaning out the garage and we kind of took different areas of the house. And the garage was, you know, just used as a storage place, storage facility.

And there was this big box that had a wet dry back in it. And I picked it up. And underneath it was a steamer trunk, this big steamer trunk. And on the front of the steamer trunk, it said, Clinton, Hill, the White House, Washington, D.C. And I went, oh, my God. And I said, Clint, what's in here? And what did you say?

I told you I don't really know because I have opened it in years. And in fact, there had been a flood that flooded this particular part, the garage, where the trunk was kept. And so I said, it's hard to tell what's in there. I mean, probably just nothing but mold and milk. I think you said snakes and rats. Yeah, I probably already did because I was wanting to ensure that you didn't want to open it. You're standing there, though, next to an investigator for Porter, Clint. The odds are pretty high.

Lisa McCubbin needs to see what the hell is in the trunk. What's in the trunk, she says? I know. I did get her to the life overnight until we came back the next day. Well, when he mentioned rats and worms, I was like, snakes. I was like, okay, let's get some rubber. gloves and garbage bags. A lot of protection. That would have been.

All right. So the next day, Lisa, you're wearing rubber gloves. You go back to the scene. Well, Madam Director, hands me, her cell phone and says, now, you taped this. We want to save this for posterity. Well, I felt like we were opening up King Tut's Tomb. You know, I didn't know what we were going to find. So I had to record. I didn't know either.

I didn't know what was in there. I didn't remember because I, boy, I couldn't tell you the last time I opened. that thing, but it would have been many, many, many years ago. Decades. Yeah. Okay. I bought that house in 1967. So, yeah, so we opened it up and inside, there was a smell of mold, but everything was dry and

it was pretty well preserved. It was just filled with lots of boxes, little boxes, big boxes, like gift boxes. And the thing that we were looking for, Mike, actually, was his metal that he had been given after the assassination for his bravery. He didn't know where it was. And so that was the one thing we were looking for. So we find this trunk with all these boxes in it. And so I said, well, maybe it's in here.

And he goes, I have no idea. Let's start opening them up. So we start opening them up. And there were Air Force One playing cards unopened. There were pins, presidential pins and tie clips. And Clint goes, see, just a bunch of junk. Trump. Presidential Zippos, too, you mentioned in the book, right?

Zippo lighter. Yeah. With the presidential seal on it. Yeah. Absolutely. Go back one sec, because I want to get a whole inventory of everything in the trunk. But the first thing is you're looking for a medal that he misplaced or just, who knows? I mean, what else do you need to know about the guy? You know, here's a medal for bravery.

Yeah, thanks. He puts that in the same place as some, who knows, some playing car. Knicks. I mean, that's funny. Yeah. Well, I never thought I deserved that medal, so. Why not? Because I didn't think I was doing the job. I knew I hadn't done the job I was supposed to do.

It was not to prevent from what happening, prevented from happening. True, but you ran up afterwards. I mean, you were so brave in the moment. I mean, the footage is there. Anybody who sees it can see. Well, I was brought up by a wonderful father and mother, and my father taught me that when you're given a responsibility in life, you fulfill that responsibility. If it's a job, you carry out what you have to do in that job to the full end of whatever it is.

And so I felt that same way about the job I had in the Secret Service. Whenever I was given an assignment, I want to carry it all the way to the very end. until it was all. And in this case, we let the United States people down, the world down, and it ended in a disaster. President Kennedy was killed. Lisa, I'm in a tough spot because there's no way I want to argue with your husband. There's no way I can dispute any of this. And he knows that hundreds of millions of people would take a different view. Hundreds of millions of people, look at that moment on that day and see good men doing the best they can under a situation

that I just don't know how it could have been avoided. But is that part of the quality? Is that part of the Clint Hill that hopefully people will get to know through your books, that kind of self-avasing stubbornness and complete unwillingness to accept a shred of praise, for God's sakes? Absolutely. And I think especially in this book, because this book is not about the assassination. It isn't, and it is. I mean, there's, we have over 200 photographs.

Most have never been seen before or have never been published. And almost all of them have really detailed captions, very personal captions of the photos, except for four photos in there about the assassination, and those are the only ones with no captions. Because I think there's a line in the book where Clint says, you know, ever since I retired in 1975, the only thing anybody has ever wanted to talk

to me about is that one day. And frankly, I'm tired of talking about that day. There was so much more that happened. And that's what this book is about, is remembering the good times that he had with Mrs. Kennedy.

And that's, as we opened up this trunk and went through the house and found all this memorabilia, it brought back fond memories, right, Clint? And funny stories. I mean, there are some really funny stories in this book that he had never told me, that he's never told before,

but then it also does deal with the aftermath of the assassination, something that he's been really hadn't wanted to deal with before. True. It's a bulk of good stories. There were some bad times during the Kennedy administration the death of their newborn son. Sure. Fascination of the president itself.

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When I just look through the places you've been, I mean, it's just, it's extraordinary. And I want to get to all that. But what else was in the trunk? Do we understand, like you open the trunk? You don't know. You go through it. You find some things. And at some point, Lisa, it must dawn on you that this is a gift.

This is a treasure chest, essentially. It really is. One of the things was, I actually have it here to show you. It's true. So I found, here's like a box that we found, you know, example of what was in the trunk. And on it, it says to Mark Shaw, 142 East 30th Street, New York, New York, from Minox processing laboratories. And so I bring this box to Clint. He was in another part of the house.

And I had opened it up and I said, look what I found. What's this? I thought it was a pocket knife. Uh-huh. And what did you? you say? I said, oh, God, I'd forgotten about that. That's a spy camera. It's called a spy camera. It's a Minox, miniature camera, usually for copying documents. I said, I didn't remember I even had it. Is this the thing in Mission Impossible, you know, where they break into the office late at night,

and they open the file, and they spread out the pages, and they start taking quick pictures like that? Is that basically what that thing is? That's what it is. and also inside the box was this envelope of pictures, small pictures that had been developed with this camera, the film from this camera. And they're all from his trip with Mrs. Kennedy in 1962, 60 years ago. Oh, my God.

To Ravello, Italy. And they've never been seen before. And so some of these photos are in the book. And they brought back all these memories. of him from Rebecca. Hold one up to the lens there, if you would. Let's see. Like, oh, here he is.

He's on the yacht with Mrs. Kennedy, Gianni Anielli's yacht. Uh-huh. And he's on the bow, right? Taking a picture of her on the stern. On the Inietta. You use the spy camera for, for touristy pictures?

Well, and there she's swimming. I used this camera very sparingly. Gotcha. Because these aren't documents, Clint. Yes. I'm aware of that. But I used it. That was like the only time you used it, I thought you told me.

Yeah, pretty much so. In Revello. What he told me was, I said, well, did you use it to spy on her? And he said, no, no, no, no. What he did was he took pictures of, like, the crew. And in case something were to happen, then, you know, if somebody did something nefarious, he had a, photograph of the crew members, which I thought was quite clever. Very spy-like.

Well, yeah. He's got a spy camera. He might as well employ some basic spy craft. He was in the Secret Service. I was just going to say, what's the difference between a spy and a Secret Service who's overseas, essentially? Yeah, nothing. No different. We're all spies. You included, Monk. I know. I know. I'm taking copious notes of this whole thing right now. So you're there, you're in Arlington, you open a trunk. No, we're in Alexandria. Is there a difference, Clint, anymore? Really? There's a border between the Super City, Jensen. See, this is what you live with, Lisa, right? It wasn't Windsor Castle, it was the big house. They got it all wrong. And did you notice he

remembered the date, March 26? I mean, come on. Yes, I know. All right, so you haven't seen the contents of the trunk for over 50 years. Now it's open. You got a fly. lot of memories. You got a bunch of memorabilia, and you decide, all right, let's peel back a few more layers and see what we see. And what comes out is this book, and it's packed with these stories. I mean, I guess there are a lot of ways to come at it and look at it, but for me, it's impossible to leaf through this and read it and not put myself in Clint's place. And I think that's what's so much fun about the book. For a guy, anyway, you get to imagine going. all through India, all through Pakistan, all through Greece and Morocco, all around the world,

with the most, one of the most intriguing women on the planet by your side, the whole time. A woman who is really kind of coming into her own, Clint, right? I mean, she was a terrific ambassador for the United States. And there you are, with your gun and your spy camera and the yachts. You're in charge, dude. I mean, it's just, it's so, it's such a fantasy. And he was 30, around 30 years old at the time. As was she, wasn't she?

Right. At that time, she was 32, yeah. Yeah. And what of those yachts, by the way, was Onassis's yacht? I mean, just the description of that in the book is pretty amazing. It's quite a yacht. You should try and get on it. It's in London.

You can charter it for today. I think it's like $100. knowledge, Dave. Oh, all right. That seems like a bargain. Might be throw a party for us on the yacht. Yeah, we're going to have to sell a lot more advertising on this little podcast before I start throwing yacht parties with the hills. But the point is you're there in some of the most far-flung places on the planet with one of the most recognizable women in the world with the full power of the United States government behind you to get that which needs to be done, done, whatever it might be.

So I just love to hear some more specific stories. I mean, I'd like to hear about getting the horse out of Pakistan, which I just think is freaking awesome. Yeah, I was concerned about that, getting that horse out of Pakistan. So she was given a horse as a gift from the president of Pakistan. President Ayub Khan and the people of Pakistan. Pakistan gave her a beautiful gift of a horse. The horse's name was Sardar.

And I knew nothing about it until it happened. So now I realized I'm going to be responsible for getting that damn horse back to the United States. So I had to work with the State Department and there was the military to handle it all. The president had a military liaison office in the White House. and it was representative of the Army that represented in the Navy, representing the Air Force. And the four guy that got this job

was it, representative of the Air Force. He was a one-star general. McHugh, right? Godfrey McHugh. And I wasn't aware exactly how they were going to do this and said, oh, I got a telephone call from McHugh,

and he was completely flustered He said that the president had tasked him with a job of getting that horse back to the United States and nobody was to know about because the president was afraid of bad publicity using government funds or something to move that horse. So I told that sounds like exactly what should happen, General. I said, you go with it and get it done. keep me informed. And so he would call me up, and he called me up one time.

He said, well, the horse is on board, but now we've got a problem. The first place we were going to refuel, they refused to let us land because of the horses on there, and they're afraid that their animals are going to somehow contract disease from this horse inside this airplane when it hits the ground. Well, I said, these are all problems you're going to have to solve, Mr. General. He said, oh, keep in touch with this. So he did. Next thing I know, he's on the phone. He says, Clint, he said, it's not just the horse. He said, they've got a guy with the horse. He's got a big red tunic on and a pointed hat,

and he will not leave the horse aside. I said, well, that's probably at the request of President. I have gone. And he said, well, that's what the man told us. Yes, he's there at the presidential request. What do I do with him? I said, just go along with it, keep bringing the horse back to the United States. They finally get it back to the United States. In the interim, all animals like that, when they come in the United States, are supposed to go through customs and quarantine. Mrs. Kennedy was very concerned about her new horse being in quarantine for 30 days.

and so she sent her husband a long telegram telling him how much she loved that horse she didn't want it to have to be in quarantine for 30 days they would never treat Prince Charles's horse that way if he were in the United States going back to London and you would never treat somebody in your own family this way she just laid out all kinds of things that said last funny thing I thought was it

She said, you know, all the people from, what's the name of the organization that protects an animal? PETA. It'd be PETA. Humane society. They're not going to vote for you if they find out that that horse has been damaged. So I thought, boy. That's good point. So she pleaded with him.

And somehow the horse managed to arrive at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, right outside of Washington. They took him to Fort Meyer. When they got him to Fort Meyer, Mrs. Kennedy, Monty Gossia. Now the provisions were you can't ride the horse for at least two weeks. So we went there and took Caroline with her just ashore the horse and she didn't ride him that time. But she didn't wait two weeks either. About 10 days later or so she was there on the phone with me. I'd like to go to Fort Myer.

I want to see Sardar and said, okay. She got the car. I had to take it for a Meyer. I noticed she was in her riding attire, and I thought, oh-oh, she's going to do something that she's not supposed to do, but not a hell of that I can do about it. And so we got there, sure enough,

she did ride the horse prior to times she was supposed to. Is this the guy? Is that the escort? That's the guy with the turban, the red coat. He was even tasked with making sure the horse only ate the right food. I mean, certain kinds of A or something. It was funny at the time.

So Clint had told me this story. There was a photographer that was there, and he was told, okay, you can't leak these photographs to the press. Nobody can see this. Well, then I came across these photographs on the JFK Library website or arch archives. So I just thought it was hilarious. So these are photos that have never been published, never been seen before. And if somebody were to see them, they wouldn't know the story behind it. Because nobody knew that story except for Clint. So not only do we have this hilarious story,

but we have the photos to prove it. And were the photos in the trunk? Was that part of that? No. Some of the photos that are in the book, we found, we curated. to go along with the stories that Clint told. So there are a lot of photographs in the book that we did indeed find in the trunk, signed photographs from Jackie Kennedy, but then what we did was we went through and did a lot of research as well

to bring additional photos to the book to help tell the story. Because there's some photos in here, Lisa, that I don't... I mean, if Jackie had a... I don't know, what do you call it, a PR person, I'm not sure these would have been approved. You mean once like her in a raincoat and galoshes?

I'm looking at those. Yes, I'm looking at some fashion moments that are somewhat inconsistent with her image at the time. I'm also looking at a very, very casual looking relaxed Jackie Kennedy in somewhere in Morocco, it looks like. Well, she was relaxed, but she was... There's a nice long story to that. We love nice, long stories. Do you have time? I got time.

Are you kidding? It's you and Jackie and Morocco. Hit me. We were on board the Christina over in Greece. And we were that the king of Morocco would like Mrs. Kennedy to stop in Marrakesh and be with him and his family to celebrate the 40th day of life of their newborn son. So it was run up the chain of command over in Washington, the state department, everybody. They said, oh, that's great.

So if you want to do it, do it. So she agreed to it. And the king sent his personal plane to Athens to pick us up. Which you stole the blanket from the plane, right? Yeah, I stole a market from the plane. Not supposed to just tell it. It was a nice blanket. It had the Royal Moroccan Air Force.

Well, help yourself. It's complimentary. Yeah, it was very nice. So we flew to Marrakesh, and we're guests of the king. And the first night, there was going to be a party. So everybody's going to go, and then all of a sudden, war broke out between Morocco and Algeria, up on the border between the two countries, and the king had to take care of that situation, so he couldn't be at his party.

So he turned it over to his brother, the prince. So we go to the party And you know You're there your guests It's a royal family Like anything We have guests come to the White House The people that come

Don't worry about the food or anything You assume that it's going to be okay And I did the same with this Because it was the Kings People putting on this party And they don't drink alcohol in Morocco They don't drink alcohol Yeah

No alcohol That's no good Well they passed around Some orders And a lot of different things had little brown things. So she took one, it took a bite out of it. So I thought, well, I better try it.

To make sure it's okay. So I took one myself. And I asked the waiter, I said, there's something special about this? He said, oh, this is a Moroccan specialty. It makes you very, very happy. It's called Mahjune. Oh, no.

Well, if you look it up, you'll find out that Majune is made from hashese. It's their equivalent to a brownie linked with marijuana. So just to be clear, you and Mrs. Kennedy

ingested edibles together back in the 60s. In Marrakech they got baked together and we have the photos in the book. Yeah, that's what happened. Okay. 1962, correct. There you go. But you were, it was unknowingly.

Yeah, I had no idea. You know what? I'd already taken the bite. and she had already ingested one. Or two, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, it's the whole issue of... I'll have another one of those, waiter. Keep them coming.

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people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirates.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-Spirits.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. One of the things we found in the trunk, Mike, was the blanket from maybe Stole isn't the right word. They gave it to us a gift, you know, on the airlines, they want you to take things. Anyway, then there was this box of negatives, film negatives. And I think you were the one that found that. So you could kind of see that there were pictures of Mrs. Kennedy on these negatives.

but then we had them developed, and that's when we realized these were pictures from that party when they had the hash brownies. How do you get those developed? I mean, you just drop them off at the Quickey Mart and hope you get a nice responsible 22-year-old kid who doesn't recognize what he's looking at? I realized when the party was breaking up that night,

and we were going to leave and go back to their palace. that there had been a photographer there at this party, the King's photographer. And so I went to him and I said, you know, I'm with the Secret Service and I was very much like that film you've used and we'd have to have a process before it can be released. And he willingly gave it to me. I carried it with me back to the United States, had it developed and processed by internal photographs studio there at the White House, and then present. them to Mrs. Kennedy. She never said much about them. And I didn't really inquire.

But then you had the negatives. I had the negatives, yeah. And it's not very, I don't know what the word is. Flattering? Yeah, it's not very flattering to Mrs. Kennedy. But so what I did, Mike, when we came back to California with a lot of this stuff, which, you know, we brought a lot of these things back to our home, I wanted to see what was. on these negatives because when we found him in the trunk, he didn't really remember all of this at the time. So I inquired of a friend who's a photographer and I said, you know, I think there might be something historic on these. So anyway, she gave me some advice and said, okay, well, I took them to a local lab. I asked to see the store manager and I said, I made him sign an NDA and sort of like an insurance form on the photographs. And then he did them for me in like an hour and a half. while I waited there because I was afraid that they might disappear.

Sure. Well, as long as we're talking about photos, tell me about the photo on the cover of the book, which also happens to be, where am I, page 177, kind of an amazing shot. Who took it and how did it wind up making its way onto the cover? Mark Shaw took it. Mark Shaw was a private photographer in New York City,

but he also worked for Life magazine. He had been in World War II. Nice guy. He and his wife, Patty Suzuki, who was a professional singer, were friends of Mrs. Kennedy's and the presidents. And I knew them as well. Got to know them even better once they were on a lot of trips with us. They were on this particular trip to Bruvello.

And they were on board the Annietta, this yacht we had that provided by Johnny and Yelly, who owned Fiat Corporation. And Mrs. Kennedy was sitting. there on the side of the boat with a camera taking photographs herself with a camera that Mark Shaw had loaned her and he was sitting on the other side taking photographs of what she was doing. So this happened to be one of those photos. What strikes me about it, really just for the first time consciously anyway, I mean,

this is decades before selfies were a thing and this really obviously is. not a selfie, but the fact that one of the most photographed women in the history of the world is sitting there holding a camera while she's looking at a camera that's almost reflected back in her sunglasses is kind of interesting. You know, I mean, her relationship with the press, her relationship with the lens was so, I was barely alive at this point, but that Lisa seems utterly unique for a first lady at that point anyhow. It was, and she had been a photographer working for a magazine or a newspaper before she met JFK.

And so she was indeed, I think it was called the inquiring photographer or something. And so she always loved photography. And on this trip, Mark Shaw loaned her the camera. And Mark Shaw, as you'll recall, is the one that gave Clint the spy camera also on this trip. And so she was taking all kinds of photographs. Wouldn't it be fun to know what photographs she took? It would. Maybe I'm making too big a deal of it, but in this day and age, it just seems like everybody is documenting everything all of the time. Even common citizens, it seems, are just used to it. I mean, I'm sure it's happened to you guys. You're on a stage. You're talking to a group of people,

and you look out and 70, 80% of them are looking at you through their phones. Recording it. Yeah. Like, everything is being preserved for posterity today. But back then, that was not the case at all. No. Not all. And you used film, and then by the time you got the film developed, you had forgotten what you took pictures of.

So it was almost like, remember when you get the pictures back from the developing, you're like, oh, yeah, I forgot about this. Right. So, I mean, that's kind of what happened here with us is all these photographs that were never digitized, and it brings back a lot of memories. Except, Clint, they didn't come to you two or three weeks after you took them. They came to you 50-some years later as the result of forest gumping your way across a moldy old steamer trunk full of snakes and rats and maybe some other things as well. well. It just must be utterly unique to be in your position and to look around at the world we're living in today and to look at this great book that's just come out that really, I mean, it's not the story of your life, but boy, it's a really intimate look at a time in your life that,

again, I think is kind of unexampled. I just can't think of another person who would be in a position to share a book like this other than the man who guarded five times. presidents. So congratulations. Well, thank you very much. I was very lucky that I was given this assignment. I didn't want it when I initially received it, but I had to accept it and I did. It turns out to be a very, very good job. I got to ask you something else. I told you I came by this morning and your wife gave me this amazing mug. Thank you. Yeah. You know, it's a great parting gift. but she also showed me something I hadn't seen before or expected to see. She showed me a scrapbook that Jackie gave to you once upon a time.

And I looked through it. There were some photos, Clint, that this was a very personal gift. And I want to stay in my lane here, but I almost felt I wasn't sure I should be looking at it. And it speaks to the specialness of the relationship you had. But can you talk about the book, why she gave it to you, and what it means to you? She gave it to me in November, 1964. I was just about to leave her detail and go back to the White House detail. The Secret Service had reassigned me to go back to the presidential detail.

There was another agent going to take my place with Mrs. Kennedy in New York. She had moved to New York City. So she wanted to have a little going away party. and she had it in her office in New York City. And there were a few agents there, and her staff was very small. And she had arranged with Nancy Tuckerman, her chief of staff, to develop this notebook with photos that were taken over the course of the time I had been with Mrs. Kennedy of our travels and various things.

It was very personal, as you say, and I was most appreciative of it. and I've kept it these many, many years. That was 1964, that's 36, that 58 years ago. It was one of the last things that we found when we were cleaning out the house. And the opening page, she had written The Travels of Clinton J. Hill. And then there were captions with a lot of these photos. And so, as you say, it was a very personal gift in the book.

we share most of the photos that were in the scrapbook. So that's one of the things people can see within this book. I think the other thing that comes through, and Chuck, you can chime in because I know you've read most of it, but it's this idea. It's the evolution of a relationship between two people. In some ways, it just feels representative or maybe metaphorical of the country's relationship

with itself in some ways. I mean, when you met her, she was very, very pregnant, and you were very unhappy. You did not want to be guarding the first lady. It was second shrift. It was not where the action was. And you felt slighted.

Likewise, she didn't want you anywhere near her. She's a young, beautiful woman. She's got a life to lead. And all of a sudden, she's under this microscope. And so somehow, you two, went from being in each other's way to being friends. And then becoming something that I think can only happen

when one party trusts the other so completely. And then both parties trust the other. And I guess that's just a long, awkward way of saying, wow, I don't know of any other relationships like that. And I hadn't thought to ask you about it, really, until Lisa showed me the scrapbook. There's such affection in it. It's really sweet.

We had a deep bond between us because we had gone through so many things together somewhat and experienced certain things at the same time, side by side. And so she trusted me, she respected me, I trusted her, respected her, and that's what held us together so closely that I was mad of mutual respect. And understanding that she knew all the time that I was going to be leaving and going back to the White House detail. Just we didn't know when initially, but it turned out to be right after the presidential election in 1964.

And a lot of these trips that are documented in the book and in that scrapbook, the president wasn't on. So it was really Jackie by herself and Clint, and oftentimes her sister Lee was there. And so there's a lot of stories about Jackie and her relationship with Lee as well. One of the things, as Clint was telling me these stories as we unlocked all of these treasures, I realized also that when you travel with someone, especially to foreign countries,

you experience things that, you know, when you come back and try to tell those stories, it's never quite the same as being there. When you travel with someone, you develop this bond. And I think that's kind of what this book shows is because they had all these experiences together. crazy, wild things like eating hash brownies in Morocco. That's a good one. You know, that even though he can tell the story, you know, we can't quite imagine what it must have been like to be there.

And that's where the photos come in because it does help give more of a sense. Yeah. Because I was listening to the book. Clint reads the book, which is great. And Mike, as you were describing the book, I was thinking what I was thinking when I was listening to it, which was it sort of reminds me of a buddy picture. Road trip. Yeah, like a buddy road trip.

And the way you described it, they both got into the situation, not really pleased with the development. That's every buddy picture. You know, it's like, oh, well, I'm stuck with this guy. And he's stuck with me. Yep. And the friendship that develops is really, really palpable to the point where, I mean, if I'm recalling it correctly, where you were saying, all you needed to do was to look at her

and she knew what you were thinking and vice versa? True. I mean, it was that easy. It became that easy. We understood each other so that well. She would look at me at a certain way, and I knew exactly what she wanted. Like there'd be in a crowd situation or...

Get me out of here. Shake hands, and she's being polite, and then she's had enough, and all she has to do is look at him, and he's like, okay, time to go, you know? Wouldn't we all like to have somebody like that with us? Yeah. Oh, my God.

Yes. I know how that happens, Clint, and I know why that happens. But when did it happen for you? When did you go from the guy who was like, I can't believe I drew the short straw to, I'm so glad I'm here because we're existing on a wavelength that's pretty rare. My assignment to Mrs. Kennedy, I started out as a number two guy. There was only two of us, but there was another guy in charge at the very beginning, 1960. And then in 61, I was sent to Paris to advance her portion of the trip she and the president were taking to Paris, France. And then I went from Paris down to Athens to Greece to advance

a trip she was going to make a loan as a guest of the prime minister and his wife in Greece. That changed my attitude somewhat. I could see that this was a lot better assignment than I had originally thought it would be, and it got better and better and better as we went along. When did you start to like her? Probably on that trip to Greece, because, you know, there were a lot of square-of-the-moment things that happened that she would let me know as much as she could at advance as she could when things were going to be changed. I would guess that's when it really started to, we started to understand each other much, much better.

And so that was in 1961 right after the big trip to Paris, right? Yeah, President of Mrs. Kennedy came to Paris. Then they went to Vienna. That was Cruz Jeff. Then they flew to London. Had dinner with the crane and Prince Philip. And then he returned to Washington. She came to Athens.

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I'm talking skills, U.S. Skills, U.S.S. Skills, U.S.S.S. USA. Back to the travel thing for a second, Lisa. There are a couple of things that I think make their relationship, what I would call a relationship on steroids, right? The first thing is simply the stakes. you're guarding her life. The stakes couldn't be higher. She's both vulnerable, powerful,

and very much on the world's mind, right? So that makes everything bigger. But the other thing is the travel. And while most people probably can't relate to that first dynamic, most everyone knows what it feels like to have an experience at home and then the same experience

in an exotic place in a far-flung vacation. It heightens everything. Right. So my question is, this whole book is a whirlwind of exotic places, locations,

characters. I mean, it's literally out of a movie. And so between those two things, the pressure on these two people, it just seems like it would be a very difficult thing to replicate. But I think what you get, out of this book is you feel like you're there.

So you're kind of the fly on the wall. And you feel what it felt like to be Clint and the things that he worried about and how he dealt with it. And you also see, I think, a side of Jacqueline Kennedy that's never been shown before and how truly intelligent she was. She spoke several languages fluently.

I mean, she was speaking with Charles de Gaulle in France and her husband had to be. to have a translator, but she could converse with him, and she had studied French history. She had lived in Paris. So she was this great ambassador. She spoke fluent Italian and Spanish when they would go down to, there were some trips to Mexico City and to South America that are chronicled here. And she would speak Spanish to the people, and that endeared those people to not only her and her husband, the president, but to America. And you can see in this book how at that time, America was beloved around the world.

A big part of that was because of Jacqueline Kennedy. She was this amazing ambassador. And she wasn't trying to be the ambassador. She was just being who she was, very curious, intellectual. She would read up on the history of places before they would go somewhere, like to India and Pakistan. and so she really studied. She wanted to understand the cultures and the history of these people

so that when she got there, she got even more out of the trips and was able to converse with the heads of state. It's kind of remarkable that she's remembered primarily for all things glamorous when in fact there was so much more to her. Oh, there's so much more to her. I mean, and she did so much for this country

even in Washington, and redecorated the White House with things made in the United States, not gifts from foreign countries. They first came to the White House. There's a park right across the street in the White House called Lafayette Park. And at that time, there was an idea

that all the beautiful little charming two-story townhouses around there would be replaced with high rises. She thought that was terrible, and so she went and did her very best to prevent that from happening. And in fact, it never did happen. And she now is remembered, and there's a plaque, was recently placed there in her honor for preserving those buildings around Lafayette Park to exist as they did at that time.

She saved the park, really. That's the kind of thing that she was really interested in. She completely saved it the way that it was. was historical. I wouldn't be respectfully your time, but there is something in the book that's kind of heavy and something that I didn't know that I want to ask you about too, because I think I've spent a fair amount of time with military guys, specifically around PTSD and the horrible suicide rates that continue to plague men and women in the armed forces. And I'm always interested in organizations that find new ways to try and break through, to try and help these people.

There's a chunk here in the book where you talk very candidly about an attempt to take your own life. And since it's in the book, I do want to ask you about it because I know, statistically, there are people listening who are struggling right now with whatever. And to the extent a 91-year-old man who served five presidents might be able to offer a little insight. I'd be grateful. Well, I was very depressed because of what had happened in Dallas and that was 22nd of November. We had, this is Kenny, the children went to Florida for Christmas and New Year's and I was in charge of that protection. I saw her every day. I saw the children every day of close and personal and it just ate at me and

ate at me that here was his widow her husband had been killed because we didn't do the job we were supposed to do, in my opinion, and the children are fatherless because of that same reason. And toward the end of December, I was a real mess, and I left her at her residence there in Palm Beach, Florida, in the hands of my assistant. And I went and I had a drink at a bar called the athletic club and I decided it was better that I'd not be any longer on this earth and so I walked out in my suit, my regular clothes that I wear to work and walked into the ocean with the intent of drowning myself. A police officer was called there by the owner. It turned out the police officer was somebody I knew very well. He was a motorcycle officer and he came

into the ocean and pulled me out and saved my life. I realized afterwards that it was a horrible thing that I had done, that I had broke. I was so depressed. And that's the way I'm sure many of these military people feel when they come back from an assignment in Iraq or Afghanistan, or wherever they've been. And I realized that it would have been tragic for me to leave my children my two sons fatherless. They'd be just like Caroline and John, fatherless. And so I was very grateful that I hadn't been permitted to care through. Lisa, it's a hell of a thing.

I mean, to really ponder exactly what he just said. And obviously, the first ring of people influenced are those closest to you. But think of what the country would have been denied. And you? That was 59 years ago. So he would have missed out on 59 years. years of life. I wouldn't have these wonderful years with him. All of this history wouldn't have been shared. It is kind of, I mean, well, it's tragic to think about, and there are so many people

dealing with this right now, as you say. And Clint actually, you know, has said that just talking about it and writing about it. So in the book, one of the things we find is his daily diary from 1964. and he had burned. I thought you burned all those. He had burned all of his other notes. And he didn't realize there was this one piece left. And that was the one year that he had never wanted to talk about because it was so painful, even with me.

And so in going through the diary, he, again, you know, brings back these memories. And what do you think? Was that helpful, Clint, to talk about it and write about it? That's what is the salvation. If you're suffering from PTSD is what I was suffering from, not knowing. They didn't even have a name for it at the time. Shell shock. Yeah, shell shock is what it was called.

If you have that, the best thing you can do is find somebody you trust. You have confidence in whether it be your wife, your best friend, your minister, your rabbi, your priest, whoever it is, teacher, and discuss and talk about what it is. that's bothering you, that's affecting you. That's the only way you're going to get it out. And the more you talk about it, the better you're going to feel. I talked about it first time with Lisa. I had talked to the Warren Commission,

but I had never talked to anybody else. Never discussed it with any even former fellow agents, family members, nobody. I didn't want to talk about it. And I ended up in 2009, meeting Lisa and she was the one that opened the door because I got to trust her and I could talk to her. And the more I talked and told her about what had happened, the better I felt. But think about what you did along the way.

You held on. You somehow held on. And all of the stuff that you needed to talk about, not all of it, but it sounds like a lot of it, was locked away in a trunk. The fact that you couldn't find the medal for bravery that you were awarded, again, speaks volumes to me. But the other thing, Clint, that really strikes me is, I don't think it's uncommon for people

who have gone through an experience like that to not want to talk about it. But you being a North Dakota, a man of a certain rectitude and courtliness, a man, you know, like you walk right up to the middle, mirror and you say, I'm never going to talk about this. I'm not going to write about it. You buried that you buried that stuff away somewhere deep inside and you also put it in an old steamer trunk. And that's what I was getting at, Lisa. The metaphors here are thick and rich and kind of important.

You pried open his memories in the same way you put on a pair of rubber gloves and pried open that trunk and started rooting around to see what came out. What came out was, just proof positive of a of a terrific life. It's just pretty extraordinary that you hung on that long and that you had the good sense to rethink the wisdom of the vow you took because had you not done that, well then maybe you still would be at the bottom of the ocean somewhere. Very true.

I think you're right, Mike, to think about all of the good things that he did that one does in their life, instead of focusing on the bad things that happen, which is what is happening with people around the world today who are struggling with this, and to just find someone who can get those memories out and make you realize you are worthy. Yes. You are valued. Everyone I know who is wrestling with this will ultimately go back to a terrible day. a terrible moment. Maybe it's in combat. Maybe they saw their friends blown up, maybe a thousand

different things, but you can almost always distill it to a moment. And obviously, Clint, we all know what your moment was. And so I'm saying the same thing over and over in a slightly different way, but it's just unbelievable to me that you spent 50 years not talking about it, then got to the place where that's the only thing you could talk about. And now, at 91, you're finally at a where a wonderful book exists that's a tribute to everything else in your life but that. And that to me is a testament to what can happen if you just hang on. Thank you, Mikey. That's very well said. And thank you. I agree with you that I know that I'm very fortunate that the right people were in the right place at the right time.

Well, you got one of the right ones sitting right to your right now. She's the book is My Travels with Mrs. Kennedy, I'm going to shamelessly hawk it right now on camera because it's amazing. I love the cover and I love the back cover and I love everything in between. I think everybody else will as well. Chuck, is there a place people can get this or it's all the usual obvious stuff? I believe it's everywhere. We didn't talk about it in advance.

Is there a special place that people can get it? It's out. When this releases, it'll be out the same thing. Wherever you buy books, we like you to support your local bookstore, indie bookstores. You can get it online as well. Big Box stores. If you want an autographed copy, there's only one place to get it. And that's at bookpassage.com. Bookpassage.com. That's our local bookstore. And that's where we're autographing books. Awesome. I love it. Who was it that said this? Come for the pictures? And if you want one of these mugs, you can't have one because it's a licensed thing. And there are only like 20 of them. But you really should think, Lisa, about getting permission because people are going to want them. It's a beautiful image.

But what was it, Lisa, that your publisher said, come for the pictures, stay for the incredible stories? Right. Yeah. That's true. Who knew? He had another book in him. This is the last. Well, I understand that.

Is this five or six? This is four. Four for me. Six for her. Yeah. Six for her. Okay. All right.

Well, make the next one a pop up. I think those things are going to come back and you could do a great one. There we go. All right, guys, thank you for making time. Thank you for my coffee mug, and thanks for another terrific book. Well, thank you. You guys, stay well. Thank you, and thank you, Chuck.

Thank you. Thanks, guys. We got a question, just one little question, so here is our question for you. If you dig the podcast that we do, won't you leave a quick five-star review? I really hate to ask much more of you. But please subscribe Oh please subscribe Oh we need of five little lousy stars

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