The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 297: Megyn Kelly and the Irish Goodbye

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

It's a fun hang with the feisty journo who shares her thoughts on fierce M&Ms, potty talk, why newsrooms are trying to scare the hell out of you, and how to execute the perfect Irish goodbye. 

The ocean delights us as playful otters restore coastal kelp forests. The ocean teaches us how our choices impact even the deepest places. The ocean connects us. Visit Monterey Bay Aquarium.org slash connects. And just like that, it's episode number. God, is it really 297? 2.97, yeah. Unbelievable.

This one is called Megan Kelly and the Irish Goodbye. Because you're about to experience both of those things, my friend. Yes, we are. Is it too cloying, Chuck? Is it too synchophantic to just sum this whole thing up as delightful? Is Megan Kelly a delight? An absolute delight. We didn't have enough time with her.

I wanted more time with her because, as you know, I've been trying to get her on for a long, long time. I've wanted her on for a while. I'm a huge fan of hers. She's got a great podcast that I listen to regularly. she's a great journalist, man. I mean, that's the truth of it. She's a great journalist, and she's fair. She got into that scuffle with Trump and, but still, like you would think, that's it.

He's dead to me, but she's like, yes, we had that dust up and he's a bully and he's wrong. But on this, I think he's right. It was a big dust up too. It could have been a career ender for her and it could have ended the election for him, frankly. The stakes were actually pretty high. Anybody else that would have ended? Their hopes, I think. Yeah.

Her resume is pretty great. And her trajectory is really super interesting. And that's why I wanted her on. Well, full disclosure, I've been on her show once or twice. And I told her last time, look, I'm not coming back on your show unless you do mine. And she said, no, of course I would. I would love to do it. And she meant it.

And she meant it. If you want to hear a structured, really good interview with, Megan Kelly that hits on all of the really topical points that have happened around her over the last five, six years or so, listen to John Stossel's conversation with her. It's good. This conversation is good, too, but it's very different. I just wanted to hang out with her for an hour and just talk about whatever came up. And as it turns out, the things that came up were important to both of us. But it's a really fun, lighthearted conversation with a very smart, very accomplished woman who has broken a few eggs along the way, but who today occupies a piece of real estate in this industry that I think is pretty unusual. She's got a really engaged audience and she left two places that many, many, many, many people are working very hard to work for.

Fox and NBC. she's out of both. And I get the sense she's never been happier. Listen, she is exactly where she needs to be. As someone who watches and listens, I believe she is exactly where she needs to be. And all the people that she talks to are very interesting. The news stories she covers, she covers very well. She's got a whole team and they get it done.

And because she is a true devotee of the Irish goodbye, would you just get the housekeeping stuff? out of the way real quick right now. Introduce her properly, if you would, as a producer who knows what he's doing. Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to love our guest today. Ms. Megan Kelly. Megan is a journalist and she is the host of the Megan Kelly Show, which is on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 11, every weekday at noon Eastern time and can also be found on YouTube at YouTube.com slash Megan Kelly and wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow her online on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, all at Megan Kelly, at Megan Kelly, Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, K-E-L-L-Y. It's episode number 297.

Megan Kelly and the Irish goodbye. Right after this. Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial, and if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Roe gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding and well-established commitment issues, you'll learn about the latest offer from Pure Talk, which includes unlimited talk, text, and data for just $3499 a month, with no contracts and no commitments of any kind. You can see why

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slash row. You're so sweet to make some time for whatever this thing is, Megan. How are you? I'm good. I'm looking forward to this. This is going to be fun. Right? You're going to make it fun, aren't you? Oh, I'll make it as fun as we can. I mean, in this day and age, Megan, we're words like fun. Where no one knows what words mean anymore at all. It's just every sentence. Don't say field.

Fun is fine. Field is effed. Yeah, field is effed. My God. Racist. Speaking of which, why are there no black M&Ms? Good point. Like brown on the inside.

They're brown ones. They're tempted to do the solidarity. Yeah, but I don't think we're really concerned with the inside of a candy or a person anymore. It's really just about the outside. I think we are less than 12 months away of losing the Cleveland Browns. What do you think? Oh, I think we've already lost them.

I mean, if not brown. How has that been allowed to stand, right? God, it's so true. But how do you even have the conversation about what's... Lost the redskins? Yeah, I mean, the redskins, great, but I mean, browns. I hadn't even thought about that. They're going.

They're going. Remember, I went to Syracuse, and they had to get rid of orange men, because that was, like, sexist and disgusting. So now we just are... Until 2016. Now we're just the orange. Like, go, orange, a big fruit comes out on the shield. What's after orange? I mean, I guess it's burnt umber, right?

I mean, like, things are going to get really esoteric. What did you tweet the other day? The Eminem thing, right? And I was just reading through the comments earlier. And oh my God, I just can't tell if we're in an SNL skid anymore. The comments made me laugh so hard. People are so clever. I love Eminem's really has lost its mind, though.

Mars Company, like we did this whole bit on their changes a year ago. And they've made more changes since that. But like a year ago, it truly was like, we lowered the stiletto height of the girl, Eminem's shoes so she can just be more fierce. They're like, what? Who's running this company? Who's thinking about chocolate? Yeah. Yeah, no one. You know, I was super interested in all of this, but in like a weird

tertiary way, because about six years ago, I don't know if you remember this, but Monopoly got rid of the thimble and the work boot and the wheelbarrow. Yeah, and they replaced them with a penguin. a dinosaur, and something else. And I wrote something about it, and Tucker called and said, would you come on my show and share your outrage? I'm like, well, I don't know if I'm outraged, really, but it does seem a sign of the times.

And it turned into this giant conversation and created all sorts of trouble all over the place. But, I mean, where does it end? Isn't there like an iron? Get rid of the iron. That's the worst. Isn't that one of the things that's been a long time? Get rid of the thimble and keep the iron.

But what they did was apparently at a glance, they just said anything indicative or representational of work has to go. And they replaced it with everything related to play. And so, you know, as a guy that runs a foundation that's saying, hey, wait a second, before we throw out all the iconography related to an honest day's work, can we have a conversation about the thimble? Well, holy crap, did we? Did you see the Google thing this week,

the gal at Google while giving us a tour of the Google HQ in L.A.? There is no work going on at Google. Just know that. There's no work. There's lattes. There's massage chairs. And there's emotional support animals. And there's lots of sparkles.

There's no work. I know. And there's music behind it, too. like coming from a, like Jack in the Box music, and everything just seems so trivial. And I really wonder, I mean, I think it's legit because I've seen him at Twitter. I've actually shared a few and then run...

100%. Yeah. Like the question of whether this girl is real and she was actually at a Google HQ. Is that what you're saying? Yes, I totally believe it. I went out to the Google HQ. It wasn't in L.A.

It was in, I can't even remember. It's like the real HQ where they are near Silicon Valley. and I got a tour of the facilities and I met with a bunch of Google execs. They wanted me to talk to people. I don't know. It was back when the left loved me. And I've never seen such Shangri-La in real life.

It was crazy. It was like they had a fencing room. You could go put down your coating to go fence for a little while and like a rock climbing everywhere and yes, you know, cappuccino around every corner, free dry cleaning, free food, gourmet. It was, I remember standing up to the people there and I said, look, there will come a point in your career where others will come, suitors, and they will dangle nice offers in front of you and you will think, could it possibly be better than where I am? Is there any way of upgrading from this? And the answer is no. No, stay where you are. Yeah, well, you only feel that way about Google because you didn't get to Facebook.

I had a show on Facebook for a couple of years, and I was summoned one day. I had a meeting with Mark, and I got the full-on tour. And they have on their roof, you say Shangri-La in quotes, but I'm not kidding. It's Zanadu. It's walking paths. Everything is manicured. You're just walking along, and birds are chirping, and you're in the trees, and with all this topiary. And then there's like a yogurt stand on the roof.

Right? Sure. And people, no matter when you get up there, they're just, they're huddled in these little clutches. And they're talking and they're laughing. And it really, I mean, except for the obvious presence of daqueries, it's a cocktail party. It's a vacation. Yeah, it's like the villages. It's amazing.

For 25-year-olds. Yeah. Right. Now, I have been to Facebook, but I didn't get as far in as you did because the one thing that I remember from Facebook that I thought was impressive was all of the bathrooms have many toothbrushes and many toothpaste. So you always have fresh breath and clean teeth. I'm like, you know what, that's a nice touch. If I ever run a like a Facebook, I'm going to do that. Yeah, because when you're zooming with people, God forbid your breath be a problem.

I mean, they do another thing. over there, Megan, that would fascinate you. They schedule meetings every 30 minutes, and it's no joke. When 30 minutes are up, the meeting ends, and the next meeting starts. I mean, in and out all day long. Oh, you mean they don't let them go beyond 30 minutes? No, it's 30 and out, right? Because so many people are queued up. And when you go over there for a meeting, you'll see dozens of people waiting in some sort of antechamber. And the higher-ups, are waiting and you just go in. And it's not a form of communication that I'm familiar with. It's a combination of like a board game or like a party game and Kabuki. But I mean, have you ever,

what are meetings like in your life now? Do you even take them? Not really. I mean, I just had a meeting. All my team is spread out all everywhere. They're in Canada. They're in Texas. They're in California, there in New York, New Jersey, all over. And I just had a Zoom meeting with all the producers saying, we should chat. You know, like, after the Kelly file, I'd meet with my whole team every night when we'd chat. Like, this worked, this didn't work. What did you think? We never get to do that now because we're all spread out. And it was great. It was so delightful. And I could see them better. We could do, I miss, you know, people. I miss actually seeing my team, my staff. And then they miss the benefit of my wisdom, Mike, when they don't get those.

My wisdom is something like this. Why the fuck did we do it that way? I mean, you know this from working on a daily show for most of your life, I'm sure, but I had a boss at CBS years ago, and I was doing this thing called Evening Magazine every night, you know. And I'd agonize over trying to get this half hour as good as it could be. And sometimes it came right down to the wire, you know, like that broadcast news moment where people are running through the hallways. Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. Yes, yes, yes.

And I remember saying to Mike, he would call me at my desk and he'd tell me about the piece and I'd say, is it good? And he'd say, Mike, it's better than good. It's done. And I was like, it took me a while to get my head around it. But when you do a daily show, right, what's the point in beating yourself over yesterday's disaster? You got one coming up tomorrow. Well, that's, you know, it's funny you should say it because that's exactly what I said to my team. I said, look, and this is true. I said, I'm never going to get mad at you for actually screwing up the news because news is a difficult business. and you can definitely misstep. People lay traps.

Ideally, over time, you figure out where they are, where's the quicksand. But I'm never going to get mad because you made an honest mistake in actually preparing the packet or getting ready for the segment. What I will get mad at is not owning it. Like, I want you to be coming to me

before I go to you to say, this is where I screwed up, this is what I'm going to do to make sure it never happens again. That's all, you know? And they got it. I want that in anybody who works for me. The person who used to say,

winners take responsibility, losers blame others. That is so true. And it's so simple. Is a mad, Megan, different today in this situation you're in than, say, a mad Megan was, you know, in the Fox or the NBC days? Just so people understand. I don't know of anybody who's come from the traditional world of broadcasting into the space that you're occupying right now. I know lots of people in your space, but I don't know of anyone who took the route that you took.

So a lot of what I wanted to talk to you about today was just life inside this, I think, very unusual rubric you fashioned for yourself. But my question was, you know, are you crankier now than you used to be? No, I'm happy. I'm less cranky. You know, look, I'm fiery. I'm half Italian, half Irish. So everybody knows what that means, right?

It's like you're ready to fight at all times. But truly, the only thing that will ever really get me actually angry with the team is not taking responsibility for screwups. It's not that you can't have a scrub. It's that you didn't own it. If I need to explain to you why you screwed it up, I'm going to get progressively angry as, you know, if I have to keep rounding back to you five more times so that you get it, because as the anchor, as the host, all I'm hearing is it's going to happen to me again. She's going to do it again. She doesn't get it. So it's going to happen over and over. We're going to be embarrassed publicly. But back when I was doing like cable news live and not really the afternoon show as much,

but really the prime time show, I was much more stressed out, and I was under attack all the time. So you're like, you know, you're ready. You're like, okay, you know, I'm looted for bear too. And you're, you know, you understand your team's there to protect you, but you also feel like if they screw up, you're the one who's going to have the egg on their face, and it's going to become a national news story, and you're going to have 10 articles written about it, and you could get fired. You know, now it's like, I'm not going to get fired. I own the company. No one's firing me. I'm good. And I also just don't feel like every word I say is under such scrutiny anymore. So I just feel more relaxed. It's not as high pressure as it used to be.

But it's interesting because, you know, heavy is the head that wears the crown, right? So you trade in one batch of stuff and nonsense for a different kind of weight. Because now your decisions, you know, have consequences that impact lots of other people, I would think. But that's really what I want to get at. I'm doing this thing. And I think I might have said this to you before. I've spent 25 years either with a boss on the production side or a net. network suit or somebody somewhere who I really need to consider before I open my big mouth.

Now it's just some advertisers, some of whom come and go, others who are loyal, but mostly it's the listener, you know, so to have a straight line to them, it's so, I think it's hard for people to understand what a privilege that is, but man, you have it now, like few people do. It's so much more valuable to me as just a person to feel that connection. So people used to watch me on Fox. Yes, I had some genuine fans who would tune in just for my show. But I would say most people watch because I was on after O'Reilly. It's like you have Fox News on.

Like there's O'Reilly and there's Kelly and she's not going to disappoint me. It's not like she's going to upset me. So yeah. And you never know. Is it me or is it the platform that's resulting in my success here? And believe me, Roger Ails did his level best. tell us all, it was the platform. You know, it was not us.

And you know, as any sort of talent, love how that's how we refer to ourselves in the industry. And we will call ourselves the talent. But any talent gets in one's head, like, you know, do I have a career if it doesn't work out with this particular employer? So come over here, and that was actually one of the reasons why I didn't launch on YouTube for a year.

I just went audio only for the first year because I thought there was gonna be such value to just being heard. That's it, just being heard. Like will they come? If there's no false eyelashes, if there's no, you know, foxed blonde aroma, you know, there's no like off the shoulder. If there's none of that, it's just me talking.

And they did come. And then after a year, I was like, all right, let's, you know, go both barrels. And we did YouTube, and that grew exponentially over the year we've been doing it. So all of that's real. Those guys are there for me and my team and the way we deliver the news. And I see it now, Mike, even we started this weekly. it's not really a newsletter, but on Fridays we send out this sort of newsletter where we just it's like one minute or less to learn all the week's news. And we do some show highlights.

The woman who runs it for us is like the open rates are exponential. Virtually every single person who gets this email opens it. And she's like, you know, you don't see this. And the reason is because those people and I have an actual relationship. They're not just watching me because I'm on after O'Reilly. They know me. I feel like I'm getting to know them. It's a real thing. and it's just really rewarding. Which is why it's a very different thing to ask, will they come as opposed to will they stay? I love stories like this.

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If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers now. E-Ha! Why do they stay? why do they come back and what things get in between or in the way of that relationship, whether it's NBC or Fox or any of the traditional stuff? And the reason I'm kind of belaboring this is because I do want to talk about my friend Stephen Crowder and my friend Jeremy Boring and what's going on in that world

because I kind of feel like part of what's happened is the whole platform talent paradigm is sort of collapsing in on itself in a really fascinating way. It seems to have changed every single thing, this shifting platform, to the point where you can now tweet out a thing on M&Ms and wind up engaged in a really robust conversation that on the one hand is patently absurd. Yes. But on the other hand, it's actually intensely important to lots and lots of people. And you get to decide how much gray matter to devote to that particular hot mess. It's so empowering, right? It's like, you don't know, I no longer need Fox News or NBC.

but kind of nobody needs Fox News or NBC now. Anybody can get in front of a microphone or in front of their phone for TikTok and go viral for their opinion if it's interesting enough. Like there is a bar. There's some quality control built in and sort of the natural instincts of consumers. And that's amazing. If I were at Fox, I'd be in a panic right now because I'd be seeing all the cord snippers and I'd be seeing all these interesting people rising up in the industry

that has the upward mobility. And I'd be thinking we have a shorter lifespan over here. But yeah, no, I love that. And I do feel like really lucky that we have this opportunity, this audience that I think the reason they come back to us is they know they're going to get, I hate the words overused, but authenticity. And honestly, they're going to get truth. Like there's a higher bar on my program when it comes to the news.

We don't just read and rip Twitter. Like we have a staff. We have a real budget for producing. That's where most of our budget goes so that we check our facts. And if we screw up our facts, unlike a lot of, you know, sort of people who are just, randomly doing news analysis, we'll come back on the next day and tell you. Yeah. Let me show you my notes, like just by way of comparison. This is what I've put together for our chat today. All right? This is the extent of my prep. Now, this drives Chuck crazy.

And this I didn't even write until you said the word bathroom when you were talking about Google. I just wrote potty talk. And the reason I wrote it all the time. This is our thing, Mike. This is what we do. We are reasonably successful in our chosen fields. And we've, for a lot of really, really big platforms. But the last time you and I spoke, we took a very weird and very deep dive into a really tragic bathroom on a 737, right? No, it was amazing. I told you about that ridiculous story. And I... He was the great... I thought about it a million times. So, can that happen on NBC? Can that happen on Fox? No. Can that happen in any traditional paradigm. I'm not proud of the fact that it devolved into an unapologetic scatological romp. I'm proud of the fact

that I heard from thousands of people who watched that exchange and just came to me and said, Mike, first of all, I love Megan. And I've never heard of really talk like that to anybody before. And I've never really heard you talk to anybody of her stature like that before. And it made us all feel like, human. It made us just feel like everybody's got this sphincter and they're all counting on it. And to your point before, forgive me, this is probably a stretch, but the thing that pisses you off is when people don't take responsibility for their actions on your team in the course of their job. And underneath that whole ridiculous conversation we had, that was my beef. Whoever went into that bathroom and destroyed it before I wandered in didn't take responsibility.

They didn't raise their hand and say, that was me, right? That's too high a bar. You're asking too much. Who would walk out of the airplane bathroom? I did it. I did it. I dropped a bomb. Left a stinker.

Right here. But it just seems like on a plane, what are your options? You just sit there and look out the window? Everybody saw you. It came out. Nope, wasn't me. Nothing to see here. I don't know.

I just think the fact that we could have that conversation is empowering. The fact that we did, is crazy. And the fact that the feedback as a result of it was so great is instructive. It's awesome. And it's like, no one's expecting it. I did have a notebook that looked like this for you that my team had put together. We could have discussed so many interesting news stories or stuff that you're doing projects, all this. No, we've devoted maybe 40 minutes to toilet problems, bathroom habits, embarrassing moments in that department. And everybody loved it. We got so many clicks and downloads from that. And just because, you know what, some days you need a laugh.

You just need to hear a light conversation about something that's kind of amusing, kind of funny, makes you think a little between two people who, ideally you like, and just spend some time sort of with friends, you know, not exact friends, but sort of friends. Like, it just makes you feel, it can't all be red meat, kill Biden. It's got to be a little bit of everything. It's exhausting. And, you know, to be a fly on the wall, if it's an interesting wall, right, that's what I think this offers people. It's a chance to be a little bit more engaged than they normally would. But not to suck up. But the thing I love about you, and I've seen you make this call on the air a thousand times, I've seen you, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you generally know what the next question you're going to ask is going to be. If things go the way you think they're going to go. But the minute you hear something, you didn't think you were going to hear, it all goes out the window. And you'll take your cue from that. And that's what I meant before.

Producers don't like that. You know, it just makes them very, very, very, very nervous. Oh, can I say at NBC, everything. Like, they wanted to script everything. Fox News, cables, a little bit more freewheeling. But at NBC, they were like, and here are your questions that you will ask. And I was like, what do you mean? I don't need your questions.

That's literally my job is the only thing I get paid to do. They're like, oh, no, no, no, no. These are the questions that have been pre-approved by legal standards and legal. I'm like, I'm not asking your question. And then if you would deviate, they'd be like, I have these non-lawyers writing legal questions for me on Supreme Court cases that we're talking about. I'm like, did this person practice law? Because I did. I don't need to. Like, it was so confining. I would never go back there. I would never go back to cable either. But I really not go back to broadcast where they really box you up. And you're right, listening is half the battle. Listening is a skill as an interviewer, and if you have confidence, you can do it.

Like when you're a newbie, it's harder, right? Because you're like, I have my list, and I'm just not going to deviate from my list. But I think the best interviewers are good listeners and just are curious people. It's like the guy in office space with the stapler, no, but this is my steepler. It's my stapler. It's my stapler. And it's my question. And I need to get my question out.

It's all been ordained. Just so this doesn't sound like two people bitching about their industry. What do viewers and listeners really need to understand when they're watching the news on Pick Your Poison, Fox, CNN, NBC, whatever? What do they need to know that in your estimation most of them don't? How to watch critically, in other words. I mean, they know by now, I think, that every news program and anchor has an agenda, and that has to be heavily factored in. Maybe they don't know how desperate they are to scare you. That's a big part of the business, you know, to scare you, and definitely to outrage you.

I think people do know that they're trying to outrage you, but they love it if they can scare the bejesus out of you. And that's not a good motive. But there's a reason a lot of people who watch cable all day long are walking around feeling kind of unhappy. It's not a good idea to put on Fox News and leave it on all day. And Fox is my favorite of the news channels, but it's certainly not a good idea to do that with MSNBC or CNN. But they have an agenda that's not consistent with well-being. You know, that's something that like even like a martini, you should just have the one. You can't have one every hour from 8 a.m. forward.

It's not going to end well. Well, you can. I've experimented. And you're right. You're right. So speaking of not ending well, how is it going to end for our friends at the Daily Wire and for Stephen? And I'm asking you now, not just as an industry person, but as a lawyer. Like, can you sum up quickly what's going on for people as you understand it?

I have a lot of thoughts on this. And I should start by, you know, disclaiming, I agree with you. I'm friends with both of them. I love Stephen. I have a real soft spot in my heart for Stephen Crowder for all sorts of reasons and think he's a huge talent. But those guys of The Daily Wire, I love them all. They're on my show regularly. These are like brothers to me.

So I hate the fight. You know, it's like upsetting to see the fight. And I can definitely see points on both sides and also fault on both sides. So I'll start with that. Then I'll tell you where I think it's going to land. And I think it has a happy ending. Here's where the Daily Wire went wrong. When you're recruiting a talent like Stephen Crowder,

And it's not just my sick effancy for Stephen. He's got real numbers. He's extremely successful. People who have come from cable news might not know just how powerful he is. It's like Joe Rogan, Stephen Crowder, you know, like in terms of the YouTube subscribers and the power in this industry. So real loyalty in a fan base, which is worth a lot of money. When you're going to go try to get a talent like Stephen Crowder? And I realized Stephen called them first through the agent and said, he's coming up.

That's how it's done, though. That's how it's done. Not everybody knows when you're becoming a free agent. So it wasn't really Stephen reaching out. It's like an agent's job to say he's coming up. So Jeremy reaches back out and says, yeah, we got an offer. That offer needs to be tailored for the star. You know, and that offer from the Daily Wire wasn't.

Their defense on those terms was, is boilerplate. Well, they shouldn't have done that. I would have been offended by that too. You're going to offer somebody $50 million and you're not going to think through how he's going to react to this term sheet. And Stephen Crowder's bread and butter is pissing off. and the social media companies. He does it every day. He would be demonetized every single day

under that deal that was suggested to him. Every day, he would make no money. If you listen to one day of Stephen, that's how he's like, has got Alex Jones on there every other day. He's like touching all the third rails. So I can see why he was offended that they would put this in front of him

and then probably secondarily offended that on this type of a deal, they didn't take the time to craft something worthy of him and like to actually, entice him into the Daily Wire family. And I think that's where things went south right from that he was like, I'm not valued. This is a middle finger. They know I'm never going to agree to this. This 50's not really 50. And by the way, he can get 50 from another outlet for that amount of time and that amount of production. And Stephen, you got to know, like, he's an emotional guy.

You know, he's not like, he is somebody who would take it personally. That's what I'm trying to say. Like, he's sensitive. He clearly did, Vag. I'd never seen him like that. on these videos. He was right on the verge of, I thought, you know, crying. Tears. Yeah, he was. He was. And that's legit. Okay. I get it. However, going jihad on Jeremy was probably not the answer. And certainly taping Jeremy, who is just such a gentleman and honorable man, was definitely not the move. You know, it's like, I was with you until, that and like I don't really get why unless Ben is right that this is all about just like launching his new platform with the most sizzle possible why he wouldn't have gone back to them and said

I'm kind of offended this is a non-starter good luck lots of love I'm doing my own thing that's where Chuck and I left it we've been talking about this a lot because I've seen hundreds of term sheets like you I've seen offers like this I've had I don't know know how many conversations with how many CEOs, and some of them go well and some of them don't, but this level of dirty laundry is extraordinary. I've never, ever, ever seen the head of a company sit down and go through a term sheet and explain to the masses, to the world. I mean, so first of all, that never happens. Never. And it's happening in real time right now. That makes it amazing. But the thing that I come back to in all of this is, do you think

it's the guarantee itself that creates the problem. Do you think the agents create the problem? Because for the life of me, I don't understand why either side just didn't say, hey, wait, let's take a breath. If you really want to be partners, we'll pay for the production of the shows that we want to put on in exchange. You'll waive your talent fee. We'll give you the platform. And then we'll split the revenue. We all eat what we kill. There's a lot of risk to go around. but the rewards could be enormous. I wonder if anybody has the freedom to even make a proposal like that today. See, I don't even know if it needed to be.

Like, I don't have access to the Daily Wire's balance sheet. But I think if I were in Jeremy's position, I would have said I will pay you $10 million a year for four years. And I will pay the production costs of your show. But then I will own the content. If you want to own the content, you have to pay the production costs of your show. and I will not demonetize you if you take hits on social media because you're going to help me drive subscriptions here at the Daily Wire, and I'm going to make money hand over fist from people

who are part of Mug Club who want access to Stephen Crowder, and this is the only place they can get it. It's what Spotify did for Joe Rogan. And I realize he's not on YouTube, but Crowder's already been demonetized on YouTube. He's got to be making money on the other socials, otherwise this wouldn't have been relevant at all. So I think there was a way of getting him and saying, we're not going to penalize you every time the social media companies do. Shameless plug. Long before she was Peggy Rowe, my mom was Peggy Noble, daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble. It was her father, Carl, who inspired me to pitch a show called Dirty Jobs to the Discovery Channel and later start a foundation that honored the kind of work Carl Noble did for a living, trade work.

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One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. People like you, people like Brogan, people like Stephen, the good people want an opportunity to bet on themselves. And it seems to me that betting on yourself in this industry is the thing that gets fundamentally discouraged by the people who control the platform. Because they know long term, the real upside is in owning the asset. And so to compensate for that, they'll push large piles of money at you.

And you can make all kinds of different deals around production costs and so forth and so on. It's in that fundamental moment, Megan, that I feel like, wait. If I could go back in time, actually, it wouldn't matter because I wanted to own dirty jobs, right? I would have paid for the cost to produce that show. And if I could have licensed it to somebody, I'd have done it without a talent fee just to participate in the advertising. But you don't get that option. And the reason I wanted to talk to you earlier about this platform thing is, because as it shifts and changes under our feet, those options become possible. And license deals become possible.

Yeah. And good friends like Jeremy Boring and Stephen Crowder shouldn't be at loggerheads. They should be making deals that reflect the nature of this new platform, I think. I agree with that. And honestly, like I say, I would never go back to cable news. I would license my show to cable news, but I would never go be an employee for cable news again. I mean, I've had some come and ask me if they can do that. And, you know, we'll see.

I have a good deal right now, which I'm not whatever, going to mess with. But I would never not own my own show now. But I would as a junior person. Like, I understand Stevens' point of, like, he's trying, he said I would never lift up the ladder behind me. But Jeremy has a good point that when you're young and you have no market power, like, no, you're not going to get to own it. You got to come, establish a name, establish a follow.

and increase your bargaining power. And then we can talk about that. Like, when I was at Fox and I was growing, right? Nobody knew who I was, but I was growing. I never expected to own my show, of course, right? That's not a thing on cable news exactly. Maybe some people do that I don't know about. But Roger would always come to me, and he'd come to me early.

Let's say I had a four-year deal. He would come to me at the end of the second year. We wouldn't even be in the third year. And he would give me a really generous offer. He would give me such a generous offer that I wouldn't shop it. you know, like it was his way of saying, you're really valuable to me. I get it. You're important to me.

And we're going to continue growing you. You know, we're investing in you. And he would make it so great that I felt loved. And I would just sign on the dotted line. And I was really happy doing that for years and years there. Like that's kind of what you need to do if you're going to go try to get a Stephen Crowder and you're going to try to get him to sort of abandon his current business model and his other opportunities. That wasn't done here.

But in the end, I do believe that. all worked out the way it should. It was ugly, but it worked out the way it should. Because what's going to happen now is Steven's going to stay in his own. And this ecosphere needs more players, not fewer. It's not good to have Crowder and Daily Wire merge. I don't want that. I want DailyWire to continue growing into the behemoth that is.

It's amazing that they are in a position to even offer a deal like this. What a credit to the business model that Jeremy and Ben began like five or six years ago. I mean, he's like not that long ago. And Crowder should be, he should start another, like his own Daily Wire. doing it the way he thinks is good. Like, not pulling up the ladder. Let's let the junior guys come in and own all their stuff and see if that works out.

Maybe they'll reinvent the wheel and we'll see something we never thought was possible before. Metaphors are powerful, right? And when you talk about pulling up the ladder, you really do create this situation that feels so lopsided as opposed to saying, actually, you know what the ladder needs is more rungs, probably on the lower spot. You need more opportunities.

for people to come in and find their way and create a thing. I'm really, really super, super curious to see what these shifting platforms are going to do to the many conversations I've had, you know, historically and the ones I'm going to have coming up and so many other people. Because I just feel like we're standing in the middle of a blank page, Megan. I don't know where the lines are. And I kind of like it. Me too.

It's exciting. But it's also kind of like, whoa, whoa. What's going to be interesting about this is it's going to depend on the talent. Look at Tim Poole. How did Tim Poole get such a big following? He put on his little beanie and he went on YouTube like six times a day for a short little stints. And he'd say stuff that was interesting. Yes, he had a limited history as a journalist if memory serves.

I can't remember like Vice or Vox or one of those. It wasn't like he had no background. But he was not a star. and he just built it brick by brick. Now, I can see him much more in the crowd or field. You know what I mean? Like, everybody should be given the same opportunity. They can do it.

They can do it. Well, not everybody can do it. And I'm not going to name names, but are you looking at cable news right now, right? Let's take CNN. I got too many pals at Fox. Let's take CNN. Who at CNN? I'm not going to give you the answer.

It's not one person. Who at CNN would have a big individual following if they just started doing that? bit by bit. Every single person on CNN whose name is known is known because of the platform. They're platform players. That's it. They're not stars. And that's true for virtually all of cable news, to be honest, and broadcast news. Look at the morning hosts. Would any one of them get a following like that, like Tim Pool did? They wouldn't. They're stars because of the platform, like back to the Roger Rails thing. And there's a very few sort of number that could do it brick by brick. Crowder's going to try the brick-by-brick model with young people.

And half the battle will be in talent selection. You know, he's going to have to have an eye for this guy can do it. This is the next Tim Poole versus this is somebody who's not going to do it unless they have the support of the star-making apparatus of something like a Daily Wire or a Fox or a CNN. It's such a push-me-pull you. You know, I mean, if you're the executive, you want to groom talent, who's different, who stands out, who goes against the grain, who cuts through the noise. But the minute you do that, now you've got this jagged little pill who has their own inertia.

And now that person becomes a threat, you know? And so that's why Roger came to you before your deal was up. Yes. That's why everybody I ever worked for came to me before the deal's up. It's like, let's not wait. Right. Until we're in the middle of some game show. How can I keep you here now longer?

There's a way of handling. And Roger used to talk about this all the time, that he would create these big stars, and then they'd have these big egos. then they'd be a big pain in the ass, but they were worth it. Yeah. You know, I mean, do you think it was easy when he was dealing with O'Reilly, Hannity, Glenn Beck? Glenn Beck. And the prime time, can you imagine, Roger?

Dealing with that. Yeah. But he was a genius at it. He had a real talent for managing people like that and creating stars and then letting them blossom. And also, there was this other piece of it than letting them down easy on the other side. So I see it happening all the time. now these days. Everybody's sort of caught on to this now, but it was Roger's creation of you don't know when you've been demoted. I mean, I'll take Shepard Smith. They booted Shepard

Smith out of the 7 p.m. slot, which is early prime time, which is a good spot to be in. They moved him just down to his 3 p.m. show. He'd been doing both. And they built him like a $15 million studio, and they paid him something like $15 million. I don't know. It was a huge raise. And he was already making tons of money. So Shepard, you're getting new title, like head of news, whatever it was they gave him. This amazing studio built just for you. And you're getting tons of money thrown in it. So you're valued.

They're just not going to be in the early prime time anymore. Right? Like, it's all management. It's smart. It was brilliant. Yeah. Look over here. Look how shiny.

So shiny. Yeah. So what about AB5? Are you familiar with what's going on on the war? on freelancing and the gig economy. Oh, in California? Yeah. Yeah.

I've been reading, you know, John Ziegler, who writes for Mediaite, has been writing a lot about this, and so he's kept me up to date a bit through his writings. Seems like bullshit to me. Well, you know what? There's a guy named Will Swame, who's a pretty good writer, and he had a piece in the National Review over the holiday, and I read it, and it actually made me angry. It made me so furious, and it was about an independent truck driver named Tom Odom, who is moving to Texas now, along with a lot of other independents.

This guy just anecdotally came up the hard way, East L.A., high school education, got his own truck. He's netting, netting six figures a year. And this bill has eliminated his business, and 70,000 other independent truckers are about to leave California or become employees or be forced to join a union. And it's not just truckers, of course. It's all ride sharing. It's graphic artists. It's anybody who's freelancing.

And so I only ask you about it because I would love to see you take a swing at that topic in general. But as it relates to what we're talking about now, you know, when does Crowder decide to be his own man? When does he decide to take the big guarantee? when did you decide, you know, screw it. Enough with NBC. Enough with this. When, like, most people I know. It takes a lot.

It takes a lot. I had to get sexually harassed by one boss and they began. And then I had to move on to another very, I mean, by contract I can't go on. But trust me, it didn't get any better. Right. But even if you weren't beset by the parade of assholes, that dominates that you're always going to find everywhere. It's set by a parade of assets.

Even if you're not the Grand Marshal in that particular parade, most people have to come to that decision in their careers. And the fact that California is now affirmatively trying to eliminate the ability to be anything other than an employee, right? And the fact that there's a big bill sitting in Congress right now, what's it called, Chuck, the pro-act or something? Yeah, pro-act. It's an acronym.

I don't know what it's for. It's nothing good. But it's, you know, this war on freelancing is somehow, in my mind anyway, about to become a whole lot more relevant to a lot of things that I've heard you talk about historically. And obviously the thing we're talking about right now. I should definitely pay more attention to it because I feel like consistent with almost everything you see out of California, it's in favor of more government control over your life. It's in favor of getting you to go along to get along, to be a good little soldier and do as they tell you. Right. Less freedom. Less autonomy. Less American spirit. Less entrepreneurial spirit. All these things. You know, I always get nervous when I listen to people comment on COVID or any sort of government overreach by saying it's all about control, as if there's like these masters in government who have this huge plan to control us all the way they do in North Korea. And that every move is a part of the master plan. mostly because I don't think anybody in government is that smart.

What smart person is running that? Because the really, really smart people don't tend to run for government, and they're certainly not in there now. So I do think it's more accidental and sort of the natural outcome of a worldview as opposed to a master controlling. But this is the kind of stuff that leads you down the other lane. Like maybe it really is about control.

Maybe there actually is a plan to take away my choices from me. And honestly, this goes right to the fundamental part of being in America. like figuring out, like blood, sweat and tears, put your elbow grease into it, and you can make a living for yourself. No, no longer. Right. It's the infantilizing of the population. And I try and look at most everything that's being debated and discussed in all of the controversies in terms of, is this essentially making us more? will this thing make us more or less dependent on something else? More or less reliant on something other than us? And I know that just sounds like Horatio Alger, cranky old, you know, white guy stuff.

But that to me is the fundamental balancing point. Are we becoming more or less independent and self-reliant? Yeah. I was going to say that's the partisan split dividing the left and the right. right now. The left wants to control everything. They want you to depend on government for everything. But I don't know. The Republicans are not that much better on that. You know, and the libertarians, they can't get power, so there's not really a lot of points spending too much time over in their lane. Yeah, I don't know. I think if you look back on when government interfered in not all,

but virtually all instances, they made things worse. Go look at the documentary by Eli Steele and Shelby Steele what killed Michael Brown to see how government intervention to save you. you helped towns like Ferguson, Missouri. And you can extrapolate that to any town, USA. But the more the government gets involved to save you with their programs that are from the heart, the bleeding heart, the worse your life winds up. And it's almost like, I don't know if you've ever had an addict in your family. But it really is sort of like if you've had an addict in your family, you know you really need to let the person hit rock bottom. You need to let them suffer. And then they pull themselves up. And the more you try to be the one lifting, the longer their recovery is

away from them, you know, the farther away from them it is. The government won't learn that lesson. The expression I like is you can't want it more than they do. Yeah. Right. Right. And you can't keep up or limiting them on their own determination to get it. Yeah, I call it going splat, right? I mean, most bad things need to get bad enough so people go, oh, in some sort of collective way, yes, that's bad. This needs to stop, whether it's the border or a botched withdrawal from some foreign land, et cetera, et cetera. When it goes splat, historically anyway, as I understand history, that's when opinion shifts. That's when things start to turn. But what Megan is saying is, if you're well-intended,

actions turn into some kind of enabling, then you're keeping the splat from happening. And whether you're talking about an addicted family member or, you know, an unhealthily dependent citizenry, I don't know what splat looks like in a world where everybody's enabling and working really hard to make sure it doesn't hit bottom. Well, wouldn't you think, take a town like, stay in the Ferguson lane right now with government intervention and so on, wouldn't you think a town like Chicago would be there. You know, a town like in 2021, there were 800 murders in Chicago. Like, I would think they'd be there.

I would think they'd say, you know, we're there now. They're not. And they're not willing to change leadership. They're going to stay team blue. I don't know forever. You know, Baltimore, same thing. Okay. I mean, big government, Democrats, well-meaning, saying the right things.

you know, we're going to do all the belts and suspenders to make your life better. Oh, wait. So I don't know what it looks like either, Mike. I feel like sometimes we're just so entrenched in our partisanship that we can't hear a messenger like Trump who said, what have you got to lose? Right. He's asking for the African-American vote. What the hell do you have to lose? It was the greatest campaign message ever. It was an honest question. I got to let belt and suspenders just ruminate for a minute. I don't know how I feel about that. I mean, I think you just use. I mean, I think you just use. it in the sense of, you know, two things designed to hold your pants up is better than one because combined, you've just doubled your odds of not having your pants fall down,

but you've also embraced the inescapable truth that now you're a dude wearing belt and suspenders, which is like, it's just a hat on a hat. What do you make of a guy? What's next? Spats and an ascot. It's the Department of Redundancy Department is what's. It depends on how high the stakes are. You know, it's like you're going out with your buddies for a beer. You can have a system failure. It's okay. Nothing bad is going to happen.

You're going commando and you're anchoring a presidential debate on the stage. You want both. But why risk it? I guess I'm just thinking more of, you know, Megan is out with her friends years ago. And, you know, it's a lively bar scene and you look across the room and a gentleman catches your eye and you look at him and he looks at you. you take in the suspenders and then you notice a belt. And what goes through your mind right there? Is this a guy who's got all his bases covered?

Or is this an escapee from the circus? What is a reasonable woman to make of a man who wears belts and suspenders? I don't think it would have even dawned on me until this moment that actually one of those is not necessary. Notwithstanding the saying, I've never really thought it through. Like, has anyone ever actually done that? Oh, I've seen it. I've seen it. And it makes me uncomfortable.

Yes. Yeah. Because you love risk. Well, I love a little bit of uncertainty. But when I see a man wearing belts and suspenders, that means that whatever I might see in the unlikely event that his pants were to fall would be so horrific, so damaging to him and potentially catastrophic to me that we simply can't roll the dice on one safeguard. We need to take steps by God.

The pants cannot come down. Oh, geez, we lost her. Belts and suspenders, and just like that, we lost our connection with Megan Kelly. That was a hard goodbye. That was a hard goodbye. But you know what? If that is goodbye, there's a pretty good chat.

Oh my gosh. Do some sort of producer thing. You think you can get her back? I don't know. You know, we're like five minutes away from where she's got to go. Oh. Gosh, you know what? What are the odds that her producer just pulled the plug on it?

Maybe she didn't like, you know, Mike started talking about some dude's pants falling down because he wasn't wearing enough protective clothing. Oh, God. Well, folks, Chuck is trying hard right now to see if we can get Megan Kelly back on the line. I did get one of those unstable Internet connection warm. mornings. Oh, really? Not on mine. I'm blazing fast here. Five hundred. Here we go. We got four minutes left. There she is. I'm like, okay, I went too far. She didn't like the whole belt and suspender thing. The whole image of the pads coming down. She didn't like it. She's gone. I'm never going to see her again.

I'm subtle that way, aren't I? I told you. Irish and Italian. That's the Irish goodbye, Megan. Love the Irish goodbye. Right. Yeah. Oh, it's the greatest thing ever. I can't believe we're going to conclude this conversation on this note because you are so right. I have been a strong proponent of this for years. Please explain exactly what it means to you and the last time you used it effectively. The last time I was with any other person. It has to be more than one person because it could be awkward.

It was just the one. Right. That's called a divorce. It's just rude. So when you're at the party, you're at the cocktail party, you're at the whatever party, the wedding, whatever it is, you don't have to run around saying goodbye to everybody. You just quietly peace out. You just leave. You just walk out the door.

You don't say goodbye to anyone. And here's the problem, Mike. Sometimes you run into the person who's trying to do it. They're not Irish. They're Irish adjacent. They're a glomer. I want to glom onto. From Wales.

And you get this. I'm doing the Irish goodbye. Goodbye. No. No. No. You undermine the whole system. I take it a little further the other way.

I say, and I literally was at a wedding this weekend, and the way I got out, you know, because I'm in the middle of some story. There's a crowd of people. I said, guys, I'm going to hit the head real quick. I'll be right back. And then I actually went so far as to tell my brother to order me a beer, right? Oh, well done. And then you leave. You just leave.

There's a beer coming with your name on it. you're in the middle of a story. I've crawled through bathroom windows. And I'm not Irish, but I am such a fan of that departure. I just love it. Here's one of the many reasons I love it. So it involves no rejection. You don't have to say your party's grown old.

I'm no longer enjoying myself here. It's like I'm having the best I love being, by, you're gone. It's just you disappear. And for me, this is so good because I hate giving rejection. I really do. So I am the person, like if you're ever at a part, party and you don't know who to talk to, come talk to me because I will never end the conversation. I will be the one. You will have to end it. I will talk to you all night long because I feel so

bad. I feel like every end of the conversation is a rejection where I'm saying, you're no longer interesting. So I love the Irish goodbye because you're just like, oh, I'm just going to run to the ladies and they're just gone and you don't hurt anybody's feelings. Yeah, except for the poor bastard standing there with his brand new belt and his fancy suspenders. Wonder where the pretty blonde went. Things were going well. She was hanging on every word. But now there's a hole in the wall shaped like Megan Kelly running.

Like, damn it. I'll give you one other tip. This I actually am okay with doing because it's kind of humorous and I use it sometimes. If somebody asks you to like attend an event in person, like a face-to-face invite, which I hate, I think it's rude. Send it to me in writing so I can reject you properly. Thank you. But like, hey, you know, we're having everybody over next Friday. You know, you want to come or like, hey, tomorrow night I'm having all these people.

You'd just say, oh, I would, but I don't want to. Looks great. Here's the problem with my schedule. You're on it. Oh, my God. If you and I were a couple, we'd have no friends. None. Just a nice couple in their belts and their suspenders sitting around wondering what happened, all their friends.

Oh, she's gone. No, she's gone. Oh, you know what? That's perfect. You know what? Don't even get her back. She did say it was a hard out. She's a hard out at 1.30.

No kidding. God, that was really fun. That was a perfect Irish goodbye right there. That is the perfect Irish goodbye. And I guess that's Megan Kelly and the Irish Goodbye. That's going to have to be the title. Or maybe not. Oh, I would, but I don't want to.

Look a minute. Here she comes. She's back again. If you don't let that be the ending of the show, you're insane. It's done. It's done. Right at 130. Right when your producer said you had to go. And I'll tell you one more thing.

Click. Gone. That's the single best end to any podcast I've ever seen. Or heard. My power, I just willed it. I didn't even say it. I just willed it. It's how good I am in it.

I know you got to go. but when you leave now, this time, just leave it open so that it will upload. Hopefully we get those others, but that'll work great. Somebody else is doing, but I'll just sit here looking, oh, you're so entertaining, and slowly walk away. That was so fun. Somebody ordered me a beer. I'll be right back. Oh, Christ, that was fun. I thoroughly enjoyed that, you guys.

Let's do this again soon. Honestly, careful what you wish for. We're huge fans, as you know, and now I owe you one, so if I can ever be of use, on your thing, the answer is yes. Thank you. Just let me know. Really fun, Megan. Thank you.

But do, do, do, do do do do do. Here's to the guys who advertise and subsidize. The podcast that I do. They spend their dough and you should know before you go. That's why it's free for you because it's free. I hope you see and then agree. Their bottoms should be kissed without the guys who advertised a show. would not exist.

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