The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 300: Phil Keoghan is Fairly Interesting

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

The prolific Philiminator joins TWIHI for our tricentennial episode to discuss skilled trades, The Amazing Race, Tough as Nails, his Buck It list, nearly drowning, inspiring grandfathers, tall poppy syndrome, and where to look at a nude wedding.

The ocean delights us. Some marvel at the colorful world below the surface. The ocean feeds us. Others find nourishment in its bounty. The ocean teaches us how our everyday choices impact even the deepest places. The ocean moves us, whether we're riding a wave or soaking in its breathtaking beauty. The ocean connects us. Find your connection at Monterey Bay Aquarium.org slash connects.

Holy cow, that was a big one. And why shouldn't it be? I mean, it's episode 300 for crying out loud. We need some trumpets or something. Yeah. Yeah. A little fanfare would be nice, but since we couldn't get a fanfare or even a single trumpet, we settled for a fan.

I think he's a fan. Phil Kogan, I'm a fan of his. You know, Phil. He's the host of the amazing race and tough as nails. and many, many, many other shows. You know, honestly, Chuck, I don't say this with any bragged dociousness at all, but there are not many people in the industry who I run into, who I feel like have a resume that's, you know, longer and thicker than mine.

Yeah, well, you guys have a lot in common, not just the fact that you both have shows on TV right now about the skilled trades, but, you know, how you got those shows from his grandfather, your grandfather. Yeah. You both had near-death experiences 100 feet underwater. Yeah. We both have musical mothers. We've both hosted a lot of really, really similar shows.

We've both worked naked. That's right. Interestingly enough. Yeah. How have you not had this conversation sooner? I know. This is really fun, folks. I promise.

It's a little longer than usual. But hey, we're celebrating 300 episodes of the way I heard it. And my professional doppelganger, he's living a version of my same life, I think. And he was very generous with his time. He's down in New Zealand. The connection worked just fine. Everything was terrific. And don't take my word for it.

Enjoy the conversation you're about to hear. Phil Kogan is fairly interesting. You'll get it. You'll understand why I went with that title in about a half hour from now. Here it is, right after this. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth? You find yourself wishing we lived in a simpler time?

Do you miss a rotary phone? Well, get over it. The genie is out of the bottle. The poop is out of the goose, I'm afraid. AI is here to stay. And every business in the country is asking themselves the same question. How do we make it work for us? Well, the answer to that question varies, but you'll find it in a free guide that you can get right now at net suite.com slash Mike.

It's called demystifying AI. It's totally free. It's essential reading for anybody trying to make sense of a future that appears to have arrived yesterday. NetSuite, of course, is the number one AI enterprise resource planning software out there, trusted by over 43,000 business. with NetSuite, you can use the AI of your choice, GROC or Claude or chat, GPT, whatever else is out there to connect to your actual business data, all of it, and automate all of those tiresome, time-sucking, soul-deaddening manual processes. This is AI built into the system that's currently running your business.

Learn more at NetSuite.com slash Mike. And while you're there, pick up their free business guide, demystifying AI. It's filled with super useful information. And again, it's free at netseweet.com slash mike. That's netsuite.com. I love it, too, man. I'm in New Zealand right now. It's like 11.30 in the morning.

What day is it? Is the better question? So it's Wednesday, the 8th. Oh, man. And so we're 19 hours. Is it? 19, 21 hours ahead of you, but the way you work it out is you just minus three hours and make it the day before. That's the easiest calculation.

I feel like you're lording it over us a little bit. You know, we're 21 hours ahead of you. We know things nearly a full day before you know anything at all. And it's, you know, it's just the burden we bear down here in Kiwi country. Well, we live in the future, Mike. And we are literally ahead of you. if there's anything you need to know about what it's like today, I mean tomorrow, then just let me know because I'm living in today. Sure, I've got a question. Am I fired tomorrow? So, yes, I was going to fire

you after this show was completed, but if you want me to fire you early, just, it's really Mike's call. Why don't you tell everybody what you did wrong, Chuck? I forgot to send Mike the link to this recording. So, you know, I'm like, hey, we're ready for you. And Mike's like to That's, Phil, this is the thing. Forgetting to send a link is not a fireable offense, but sending me a shitty email with a supercilious undertone that suggests that my tardiness is somehow the proximate cause of my own deficiencies when, in fact, my fake producer couldn't even be bothered.

It's that. It's that little twist of the knife that, you know, there's got to be some sort of consequence. But of course, you must have key people in your organization who, you know, while you'd like to fire them, just the fallout of doing so is just really all you're doing is hurting yourself long term. Ultimately, yeah. And I think we just feel sorry for people like Chuck.

And so we keep them around as a way of making us feel better about ourselves because we realize that we're not at that. Chuck, I'm sorry. I can't continue with this. I'm sitting right here. You look like a hurt little five-year-old boy right now. I feel a tear coming on. It's troubling. You and I have never met face to face.

We spoke briefly a couple years ago when you were getting tough as nails off the ground. And I was struck then by, at a glance anyway, the commonality of our resumes. You know, they're not many people who I would think, oh, you know what? I think maybe they lapped me there. Your passport's thicker than mine.

In other words. Your hands might be dirtier than mine. But we do have a lot in common. and I do want to say to you that what you have done to create awareness for hardworking men and women in America is exemplary and something that was really much needed and really why I gravitated to want to speak to you because of knowing the history of your grandfather and both our grandparents, hardworking people with real life skills. And I think, you know, what you've done to create awareness for young, boys and girls thinking of working in the trades and gathering life skills and getting back to that, I think is just so hugely important. And it's a universal theme, you know, because we have it

here in New Zealand as well, where people are sort of told, I mean, it happened to me. I was told that, you know, really, I wasn't going to have the opportunity for a good future unless I went to university and got a degree. It was never, I was never encouraged to think about a trade. or to use life skills like my grandfather. And so I think we're at a really pivotal time right now. And so I think what you're doing is just more important than it's ever been, quite frankly. Well, thank you. Thank you.

And I was just agonizing over where to start. But I think maybe that's where we jump off with Jack. Your granddad, I just read an editorial that you wrote that summed up. I thought really beautifully everything you just said. But look, in all things, there's an anecdotal approach and there's a true hands-on experiential approach. So if you would, you know, and I hate to ask you to tell stories you've told before, but put your pop in a nutshell for me and talk a little bit about apprenticeships because if I'm remembering right, you came in hot. You're right out of high school, right into some kind of media-based apprenticeship, circled back as I did to get some certifications and ultimately, a degree. But the impact of really being able to surround yourself with people in your chosen

trade and just absorb that information, you know, I mean, I could go on. It's a soapbox, but that's what's missing in our country. And apparently it's missing down there too. So congratulations for finding a loophole. Well, yeah, you're so right. And I think it also speaks, Mike, to terrible ageism that we have in the country where we have all these highly skilled people who would have a real renewed purpose in life if they were encouraged to teach and share, and yet we write so many of them off. And you walk past a lot of these highly skilled people every day and they're in our neighborhoods, and you wouldn't even know that they've had these incredible lives because we don't pay them their respect. I grew up with that whole adage of

respect your elders and all of that. But all my grandparents never had a shot at a university education. My grandfather was the brightest kid in his middle school. He got a scholarship to a Catholic school when he was 13 to go to high school. His father, who was a coal miner, didn't, I don't know really whether my grandfather was scared to go to school, whether his father didn't want him to go to school and wanted him to go straight to work. But he basically stopped his former education at 15, sorry, 13. My grandmother was from a very large family. I think there was 16 kids. She was, as a young woman, they weren't encouraged to the university. I think there was 16 kids. You don't once you get past 10. You're like in a rounding situation. Could have been 18. Could have been 12.

You run out of fingers. What can you do? Well, apparently my great-grandfather, They used to rally all the kids to get into the bath, and they would share the same bath water, and the oldest kid got in the bath first, and then the other kids got in. And apparently a few neighborhood kids would accidentally find their way into the bath because he couldn't figure out.

It was my other grandfather, he was at Carpenter. His wife, my mother's mother, worked in a factory. And so my grandfather, the one that I had the most time with, he went and worked in his brother's bike shop at 13. By the time he was 19,

he was an A-grade mechanic. He was a very good rifle shot, so he did a lot of shooting. He got into doing gunsmithing. He became an aeromechanic in World War II. My other grandfather repaired the planes, the wood on the planes, because there were still a lot of wood on planes. And anyway, he was probably one of the brightest people that I've ever met, but all self-taught. He just loved reading. And when I would spend time with him, I would just constantly learn about how to, probably,

problem solve and how nothing went to waste. He had three sheds in the backyard. If the washing machine broke down, he'd break it down into pads and put the pump away in one and the handle because that would be useful for something down the line. And so he had lathes in the garage and this gunsmith workshop. He ended up shooting for New Zealand,

the New Zealand shooting team, target shooting team. He was the servicemen's champion shooting rifles. So I grew up in the workshop with him a lot, doing loading, reloading, and I ended up shooting for the New Zealand Under 25 team when I was 17 because of his coaching. So I grew up with a respect for firearms. And a huge influence on work ethic and doing a job and doing it properly and watching him with his hands. And just, I just remember so distinctly his hands manipulating things and how he would use tools and his number one tools, his hands. And at the time, I don't think I realized just how lucky I was to be able to be

seeing that. But after spending so much time with him, and both my parents have the equivalent of doctorates in their chosen field, it just irked the crap out of me that people would make derogatory comments about working class people, because they were talking about my grandparents. And so part of the motivation for me with Tupper's Nails was honoring people like my grandparents and honoring the people that do the really tough yards and the ones that go out in the storms when we all huddle away in our homes and try to stay safe and warm and the ones that are wiping down shelves in the middle of the night and the ones that are underwater welding and doing the hard yards the farmers that get up year after year and do the hard work and so I'm sorry Phil but let me just jump in and congratulate you for that or at least just return the comments compliment quickly because I know how hard a cell that was in 2001 with dirty jobs, right? I mean, there really hadn't been anything on TV, never mind honoring, just acknowledging, acknowledging Jack Cogan, as you've described him, Carl Noble, my grandfather, these are the same

men who live basically the same life. So I am curious to know what kind of roadblocks you encountered on the network level. Because obviously, as you know, the cable world is one thing. Broadcast is something else. And you, you know, you made a name for yourself there at CBS. Was hard as nails a tough sell? It was. Tough as nails a hard sell?

Yes, it was. And nails are tough. I mean, Dirty Jobs was a groundbreaking show in that sense that suddenly we were seeing jobs that had never seen the light of day, literally. Like you were going into places. showing off job sites and people's lives that nobody had seen. Nobody actually wanted to talk about or acknowledge. When you have a toilet that's blocked and it's flooding your house, there's somebody

you have to call to fix that and somebody knows how to fix that. Or you've got to leak in your wool and there's gray water in your wool and somebody's got to come in and do that. Or you've got to put a roof on and you don't want it to leak and you want it to last years. I mean, I remember my grandfather, Jack, showing off about my other grandfather who put in windows, he was a joiner, and put in these windows that were 40 years old and still slid up perfectly. And my father's father was so proud that he had the windows that my other grandfather had put in and said, look at the workmanship. This is 40 years. Look, they slide up and down perfectly. So, yes, it was an incredibly hard sell. and I first pitched Tough as Nails in its original form to CBS in 2008.

I was sort of told that at that time, I was told to a show like that about real people. My wife came up with this, my wife and producing partner, came up with the line, real people in real life who are real tough. And I think that sort of really explains the ethos of what Toughers Nails is. And I was told, no, a show like that, nobody's going to want to watch that. I went back and I pitched it in 2010. And the head of scheduling then was Kelly Call, who ended up becoming the president of CBS, who loved the idea. And so did David's staff, who runs CBS television studios.

They gave me some development money to develop it. I put together a presentation. I pitched it to CBS. It got turned down again. In 2013, I was given a little bit more money because they'd had quite a few shows that hadn't worked. I went back and I did another presentation in 2013. I then kept going, pushing, pushing, pushing. All of a sudden, the years are ticking by.

And now it's 2017. I got some more money. And this time I cast it. And I put together a proper sizzle. So that's 2017. So that's nine years later. And then... And Phil, meanwhile, you're crushing it with the amazing race, right?

You're a proven entity. You're at CBS. I mean, it couldn't have been easy for them to tell you know at that point at the same time, although they're very good at it. And I just mentioned this for your own edification. CBS was the only network I didn't pitch Dirty Jobs too. I pitched it to every network and every cabler. The reason I didn't pitch it to CBS is that Dirty Jobs started as a segment on Evening Magazine called Somebody's Got to Do It, which they fired me for.

Okay. Nobody wanted to see me crawling through a sewer. And so CBS said, get out, and I took the demo tape with me. And so that's why I'm sitting here talking to you today. It's just so full circle for me to see a legitimate host get that ethos on a broadcast network. And you guys are in what, season five now or six? We've shot five. We're preparing for six.

We shot five seasons, 50 hours and two and a half years. I think in 2021, I had one day off. So it's a seven day a week thing. Our budget is about 60% of the bigger budgets on the bigger reality shows. We shoot and deliver in 4K, which I'm very proud of. I went back to old photographs of Rosie the Riveter, and I went to the Library of Congress. They've got this great book with working class people of America in the late 40s, early 50s.

And there's a, the Ectochrome film has this really cool look to it, where it's this, the deep inky blacks, the rich primary colors. It's got a very distinctive look. Yes, highly saturated in these inky blacks. I just love when the blacks drop right off, and then you get the highlights, and then the rich yellows and reds and blues. So I created this style look, this look for the show, and I wanted hands and faces and sweat and drips, and I wanted it to look gritty.

And I said, I don't want you to glam this up. I don't want you to make it look like a dating show where they deliberately diffuse the faces and soften the light and make it all very frontlit. I said, I want to, we're going to shoot into the sun. It's going to look gritty and dirty. I said there's going to be backlit water, backlit dust. I don't care what these people look like because when they're on the job site, trust me, they're not looking pretty. They're not turning up to a beauty show. I said, I want that to come across.

And so I then went to a wildlife photographer who'd never shot reality. who shoots lions and films lions in Africa and works on a long lens and sits in a bush for five days. And I said, I want you to come and shoot this show. I said, and the good news is you don't have to wait five days for an animal to jump out of a bush. I said, there's going to be people working. And I just want close-ups, extreme close-ups of eyes and hands and faces and grit. And so I managed to convince him to come on. I got a guy who's never colored any reality show in his life who does commercials and features to

grade it. We spent way more time on the grade. I don't know if you've seen the show, but it has a very distinctive look to it. Oh, yeah. And then I handpicked people to come in on the show. It was very, very important to me that every single crew member had someone in their family, and most people do, that they could say, that's my Uncle Bill, that's my Aunt Mary. We had one person who worked with Rosie the Riveter in the factory. You know, like people, and I got them to share their stories because I wanted all of them to dive back to that and get into that mindset and go,

there's enough shows honoring celebrities and wannabe celebrities. We're not going to do that. We're going to put a spotlight on the people you don't see at 3 o'clock in the morning working. Those are the people we're going to highlight. And so that's what made it a hard sell, because celebrity sells and hardworking people who work at three o'clock in the morning don't necessarily sell off the shelf, so to speak. And it's hard, dude.

It's very, very hard to go toe to toe with an executive and an executive committee and sometimes a production company, although I realize this is your own thing. People don't really quite understand what it takes to take the reverse commute when it comes to creating, content. But you've done it a couple times. The Amazing Race didn't look like anything else I had seen when that thing came along. And when I look back at your resume, you know, from the bucket list to the no opportunity wasted, the books that you've written, in fact, I wrote this down. Maybe we can riff on this for a second. That's fairly interesting. That show, we could do two hours on this, Chuck. This is the title of a show in New Zealand called that. That's very Was it that's fairly or that was fairly?

Do do do do do do do do Dumb! Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Rowe gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding and well-established commitment issues. issues. You'll learn about the latest offer from Pure Talk, which includes unlimited talk,

text, and data for just $3499 a month with no contracts and no commitments of any kind. You can see why I love these guys. If, on the other hand, you have better things to do with your time, then watch my mom and me be impossibly charming together, then allow me to remind you, here, without all the cleverness and charm, that unlimited talk, text and data on a blazing fast network for just 3499 a month really is an unmitigated bargain from an American wireless company that keeps all their customer service

in this country, supports our veterans in a meaningful way, as well as the MicroWorks Foundation, and allows me to exploit my own mother in a national advertising campaign. Do what my mom did. Get yourself unlimited high-speed data

for just 3499 a month. At puretalk.com slash row. You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure Talk. Well, you just basically summed up the New Zealand culture in a few words. So back in the late 80s, I hosted that show in 1989, and I was with three other hosts. And in New Zealand, we have a culture.

It still exists today. where nobody is allowed to show off, and if you do, you'll quickly get chopped down. It's called the tall poppy syndrome. Tall poppy, right, of course. Do you know this saying, Mike, tall poppy? Well, I know how beautiful a field of poppy's looks when everything is uniform. Yes. And how everybody, right, I mean, if I remember it right, the syndrome occurs when one

poppy grows a little taller than the rest. That's absolutely, yeah. And it doesn't go over. It doesn't go over well in New Zealand. No, if one little poppy comes rising up out of their field, then New Zealand society likes to come along and clip it off because we love to have everybody the same. And I remember when I first started as a television assistant, I was 18 years old, straight out of high school, against my parents' wishes because everybody else I was at school

with was gone to university. And I was doing an apprenticeship. and some of my first jobs were running up and down the sidelines at rugby matches, dragging the cable behind the cameraman and sweeping floors. And I remember we did an interview with the all-black rugby team. And if I'm not mistaken, it was 1986. And I think we beat Scotland, 860 or some crazy score. It was a world record.

And they were interviewing the New Zealand rugby player. And they said, you know, how does it feel? There's a world record. Is it 80-6 to zero? How does it feel? And he goes, oh, look, the ball was wet and you really got to hand it to the other team. They came out here today and they really gave it everything. And yeah, the boys played pretty well.

But, you know, look, Scotland, you know, they didn't just hand it to us. That in a nutshell is New Zealand. So while in America in the 80s, it was, that's incredible. You know, like they would remember that show? That's incredible. Sure, of course. This was our version of that's incredible. So nobody in New Zealand dared to say, oh, my God, that's incredible.

So in New Zealand, it would be like, you'd be at a pub, you'd be having a drink. And we'd be sitting there with, you know, Chuck and we'd be having a beer. And Chuck would say, as a key, we'd say, oh, yeah, no, I went to the moon yesterday. Oh, did you? Yeah, yeah, I went to the moon. I was the first New Zealander to walk around on the dark side of the moon. Oh, yeah, it's fairly interesting. me another public.

I mean, that's, like, nobody wants to get excited because they don't want to give Chuck his, you know, like, you're getting a bit of ahead of yourself for your Chuck. What do you think you're better than this? Because you went to the moon, the dark side. Tall poppy, yeah, the dark side. Yeah, good for you.

Son of a bitch. Again, that's what's so interesting about your evolution. You're not, you know, the 10-time Emmy-winning host of the rather interesting race, right? It's the amazing race. You're over here in the land of tall poppies, where everybody is weighed and measured by their own relative worth. You know, we don't clip down the tall, I mean, we kind of do, but we also build them up, right? Because there's nothing more fun than knocking down a tall poppy, especially if you grow it and water it yourself.

So we create our celebrities. We create our heroes. Then we rip them down and pee on them, you know? yeah it's definitely a different mindset it takes a little bit to get used to because you come to America I remember I was working at Fox at the time I was doing a morning show it was a live morning show was my first American solid gig and I remember one of the producers came up to me and said oh my god you're the greatest you're really the greatest I really love the way you do your stories they're just it's just so insightful and I walked away and I was like oh shit I'm the

greatest I'm you know this is is amazing. So I walk off. I'm feeling really proud of myself. I went and get a cup of coffee and I come walking back. And then I overhear the same producer talking to another reporter. You are just the greatest. Oh my God. I just love what you do. And I was like, but I thought I was the greatest. But you don't say that or genius is another word that's thrown around. Like, oh my, my, he's genius. Genius. Genius. Visionary. Groundbreaker. Speaking of genius, that American accent you've got there is pretty good. Put that off.

Very solid, dude. Very solid. Very disturbing. I really appreciate that, Chuck. It's really great. I've grown up with many accents because I left New Zealand when I was three. I went to Canada. My dad was lecturing it.

Had enough? Well, my parents got posted. Yeah. They got sent out of the country. No, they went to Canada. My dad was lecturing at Guelph and McGill in Guelph for four years. And then I went to the Caribbean. So I grew up as a young kid talking like this.

I had like a pure West Indian accent from the age of about, from the age of about six until 12. You wouldn't know me, Mike. You would have wondered what kind of fella you just met, but I lived down there in Antigua. It's 108 square miles down in the Leewood Islands. So I had that accent. And then my parents were traveling, you know,

all around South America, and we lived in Colombia for a little bit. And then I went, we got posted out in Australia. and then my parents were worried about my education, so they sent me back to New Zealand from the Caribbean, and I arrived. You know, I'd been used to running around the island with bare feet. I used to ride my bike all around the island.

Suddenly I end up at a really strict boarding school, which was massive culture shock. I was basically an Antiguan and a blonde hair, white-boyed body. I looked like everybody else, but I didn't think or move or talk like anybody else. That was massive culture shock. So then I went back to New Zealand. accent and then when I was 22 I came to America arrived in New York got offered a job at

MTV within two weeks and then found out that when I turned up with my passport at MTV 1515 Broadway and I went to human resources and handed over the New Zealand passport the woman goes do you have a green card I said no I don't have a green card what documentation do you have I said well I have the New Zealand passport you can't work here with that So that began a journey of almost two years and lots of lawyers fees, trying to get an 0-1 visa. And I looked after cats on dialysis in New York, in people's apartments and watered their plants and did all kinds of odd jobs just to survive until I could finally get. How old are you at this point? You're like 1920?

22, 23. And I'd already been on air for a long time. Who did you marry to get your green card? The only thing I knew about green card was that movie with Girard. Deepadoe, you know. And I figured someone just sponsored me, you know. Oh, right. And that was a bit of a wake-up call. It took me a little while to get that immigration sorted out. But anyway, I just want you to know you're talking to someone who's legal. Oh, yeah, you're legal. You're legal and Chuck's fired. It's all perfect. I'm taking over, Chuck. I got a new job. Okay. Back to the accent thing, just real quick, not to belabor it, but have you noticed, I mean, you've traveled to, what, 120,

countries, something like this. 140 now, yeah, yeah. 140 countries. Have you noticed how the charm of a new accent is there in all of its splendor and just such a part of the thrill of walking into a new culture until the day you wake up and it isn't? And the thing you found charming is suddenly just like chalk nails on a board. Has that happened to you? I love accents.

By the way, you have, I was telling Chuck before we go on it, you have like the greatest voice. There are certain voices that you can listen to, like yours is an easy voice to listen to. And then there are voices less about the accent, but there are voices that are just, like you said, grating. They're at a tone that just, it bites through everything and it really just can annoy the crap out of it.

you and it gives you this feeling like, could you please stop? So I find accents fascinating, and I'm constantly listening. And they say if your accent changes before the age of 12, you become a chameleon for the rest of your life. So I love the subtleties of accents. I love South African accents. I love different African accents. I love European accents. I love that. But can you do all these accents? I can do quite a few. I do my friend who, was Croatian. I can't believe, Phil, you're getting a great shot here. This guy used to love working with me. This is on the Fox Show. We would shoot these segments. They were live. And every week, my boss would tell me, you've got a camera, you've got a live satellite feed. I just want you

to be interesting. Go do whatever you want. So one day, I dreamt up this. I was down in Battery Park, and I was having a few beers. And I looked up and I saw the flashing light on the top of the Verrazano Bridge. my boss literally was like, whatever you want to do, you can do it. So I'm sitting there and I had a couple of beers and I go, I wonder who changes the light bulb up there on top of the Verrazana Bridge? Well, Monday morning, we were up there with the guy who changes the light bulbs on the Verrazana Bridge. So we're up 700 feet up in the air and I'm with this guy. And we do the segment. And at the end of it, the camera operator, he would get so excited when we did a great segment. He's like, Phil, it's like a great sex

when we are working together I love it so much I'm doing the shots and I'm feeling you I'm like I'm knowing where you're going and it's great it's just great stuff it's great TV I love it so much

so that's my friend it's very good yes Eastern promises yes Eastern promises Phil I'm taking blue jeans to my family this Christmas 501s they love them I can't read that, Chuck.

Chuck, what are you holding up there? What's it say? I'm trying to say that you're leaning into the mic sometimes, and I'm getting a lot of... Okay, I will behave my... Is that me? When I fire him for real, this will go on the list of offenses. I'm sorry, it's me, Chuck, you're talking about, right?

Yeah, he's talking about you. Okay, I'll... You know what? We're in a safe space right here, Chuck? Yes, you. We're in a safe space. So, you can offend me. just saying, hey, Kiwi boy, dial back with the pops on the microphone, will you? Yeah.

Or you could have said those pops are fairly interesting. You're popping your peas. Yes. Fairly? Yes. Let's hear a New Zealand accent, Mike. Because I can't do New Zealand. I can't do New Zealand. I can't do Australian. British is easy. The point about the accent thing was you're right about certain voices being inherently annoying. But the accents are so inherent. charming that they cover up the inherently annoying thing until see this happened to me i'm not going to tell the whole story because people who listen to this have heard it before but when i went to australia to promote dirty jobs very different than promoting a show over here like you have to there are only 20 million people there you got to hit everybody right yeah you got to like go everywhere

oh you know i loved the accent but then i hit all the fm stations and every single dude asked me the same question. And it was always like it occurred to them, and they were the first ones to ask the question, but they lean into the mic, just like you do when you breathe in it, and it annoys chuck. And they would say, so, so, Mike, tell us, what was your dirtiest job? And it graded on my soul to the point where I went from just thinking Australia was the most wonderful, charming place. After three weeks of that, I was like, that's it, I'm out. I'm not coming back. Well, you know New Zealanders, and I mean, I'd just love to hear anything negative about Australia because I'm from New Zealand.

I was going to say. You guys. Yeah. I mean, I did marry an Australian woman, but that was more of a political thing, you know, just doing my pattern. Yeah, settle a bet and also just doing my patent creating Australasian peace. But, yeah, Australians, we're always against Australians. We're like the little brother. And so it's all about.

beating Australia and whatever it is. So, yeah, you would not have that problem in New Zealand. I'm sure the radio hosts here would ask better questions. But that's a very good Australian accent. That's, uh, yeah. Well, it's a combination of the Australian accent and puke radio. Like, you know, be like, all the DJs over here kind of have that thing going on. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

A lot of puk. Mike, have you seen, have you seen World's Fastest Indian, the movie, World's Fastest Indian? First of all, I don't think you can say Indian anymore. And secondly, if they're from Indian, if you're from Kiwis, it's like world's quick moving Native American. Have you seen the film? The world's quickest moving indigenous person from America. Have you seen that one?

Not yet, but it's on my list. Okay, so there's a motorbike that has the name. Oh, right. Right. The motorbike. That's right. Okay. So back in the day, there was a guy who was very much like my grandfather.

My grandfather used to race motorbikes on the beach here. And both grandparents actually used to race motorbikes on the beach. It was a thing in New Zealand that people did. A little bit like racing out on the salt flats of Utah. So the actor who was in the movie about this gentleman by the name of Bert Monroe, was Anthony Hopkins who mastered the New Zealand accent. And it was directed by a friend of mine, Roger Donaldson, who did No Way Out and he did species and cocktail and Dante's Peak

and the bank job and a bunch of different movies, amazing director. And it's the story of a New Zealand man with no resources who came up with a very fast motorbike and was living down in Invercagel, which is they say where you put the enema in New Zealand. It's literally in the bottom. And he...

Am I allowed to say that? Is that offensive? I think you may have just given us the title of the episode. Yeah. Yeah, you're allowed to say that. Anyway, he left the bottom of New Zealand and traveled to the United States, arrived in L.A., and, you know, a little bit crocodile dundee-ish in terms of like saying hello to everybody when he got to L.A. Oh, good-a! You know, I'll see you around, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And he goes to the salt flats out in Utah and breaks a world record with a motorbike that he had built in his home garage in Imvecagel in New Zealand. And it's the story.

And Anthony Hopkins is the actor in it and absolutely nails the New Zealand accent. And it's an inspirational story, but I think you would connect with it if only because he's our grandfather. He's that guy. He's the guy that... I'm writing it down right now. Oh, and while we're talking about this kind of stuff, Flight of the Concordes, two thumbs up, you love them? Are they adoring?

How does that work for you guys? I love them. I love the Flight of the Concords. If I'm not mistaken, they actually pitched the flight of the Concords to a New Zealand network who said, they're not even fairly interesting, but they ended up selling the show to HBO. And, yeah, no, I love them.

I think... What a great show. What a great export for you guys. Prism. Yeah, present. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Murray, we're going to do the roll call now. Yes, no. Leggy, Leggy Blonde's. Yes, there we are. Yep, no. Good on you, Murray. Yep. So they're an institution.

And it was so cool to watch that because when I came to America in the early 90s, nobody knew where New Zealand was. And I remember I auditioned for a soap opera. And I got through five auditions. This is after I got my green cat. And I thought, oh, soap opera, that'd be a good way to make some money and, you know, settle into America. Why not go do a soap opera? Anyway, I go through five auditions, and I get to the final audition.

And I won't say what network. But it was a big soap opera, and the character ended up running for about 10 years. Anyway, they wheel in this window, and I have to do three scenes, three colors. I kiss this actress in the window in the bag. window, look at her adoringly. I feel like I've nailed the audition. I had to fake my accent going in most from most auditions, but this one they said I could just keep my normal accent, so I nailed this audition. So anyway, I go to meet the executive producer on the final audition. It's down to two of us for the job. And the executive producer says, so where exactly

in Europe are you from? And I said, oh, no, no, I'm from New Zealand. And then the executive which turns to the casting person and says, I thought you said this guy was from Europe. And he goes, well, yeah, New Zealand, Scandinavia. Right? Scandinavia. And I went, no, no, New Zealand's down the bottom of the world. Well, where? Like the lower part of Europe? No, I was like, no, no, no, like literally down the bottom.

Anyway, I didn't get the job. I was meant to be a European, sort of wealthy European, and I wasn't. I was a poor Kiwi from working class people. This is a good opportunity to go in several times. directions, the geography, I mean, you've made the world very, very small for yourself, right? I mean, you know where New Zealand is. Over here, it's mind-boggling how many people couldn't find that on a map. In fact, Chuck, there's a fair amount of people who are pretty sure, like you can drive from New Zealand to Australia, right? Yes, there are, Mike. It's a lot of people call

rental companies, like they'll call Hertz, and they'll say, how long does it take? Because Sydney and Auckland both have bridges that go over to the North Shore, there are people that call and say, how long does it take to drive across the bridge to Sydney? Yeah. I'm not kidding. Yeah. Well, it's a three-hour flight, but you could probably drive it in...

Do do do do do do do do do. Dumb! I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Stude. was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent meat company that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises

to deliver high-quality American-grown meat for a fair price. Today, that promise. And Ben's absolute determination to keep it has not only propelled good ranchers into the top tier of meat delivery companies, it's fueled enormous awareness among meat eaters like me that we have all been affirmatively deceived by policies that allow imported meat to be marketed as domestic. That's the reason I switch to good ranchers. If I'm being honest, though, I doubt that I would have stayed this long had the quality not been so exceptional. Every single cut, I've devoured from Good Ranchers has been straight up delicious, and every morsel was raised on a small American farm or ranch. Give them a try. Subscriptions are affordable and flexible. In fact, if you start your plan today, you'll get free meat for life and $40 off your first order.

Just use code mic at good ranchers.com. Free meat for life, $40 off your first order. Good Ranchers.com. American Meat delivered. You could eat a stare, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch, get good ranchers now. It's the truth. There's a really cool, if you look at Google and you go, World Maps without New Zealand, and you will see. I remember when I first came to New York, I was watching the world news, and I think it was on ABC. And I literally called the network, you know, like called the front desk. And I was like, yeah, I'd like to file a complaint.

there was what is it sir i said so i'm from new zealand and i just noticed you have a world map and you don't have new zealand and they said what do you mean sir and i said new zealand it's a country that's next to australia there and they said it's on the news right now like look at the thing and they go sir i'm looking at it i see it i said no no no that's tasmania there's this other country that's the size of great britain and japan that you just left off your world map it happens all the time. It's a massive country. It's 1,200-something miles long. And people just leave it off their map. There are 4 million people in it. And a lot of sheep, Mike, a lot of sheep. Oh, my God. And back to the jokes, right? I was in Christchurch and Auckland a few years back. Oh, wow. You went to Christchurch.

That's where I'm from. No kidding. Yeah. Yeah, I love Christchurch. I was there right before the earthquake. Oh, so 2011. You were there like 2010 or something. Going through it. Yeah. Just long enough to hear like a dozen sheep jokes. I mean, wow, there's a lot of sheep jokes flying around. I think we got a few from Wyoming, and I know that they're transferable. So when you're in Australia, you hear the same jokes about New Zealanders, and then we say the same things about Australians. What's the best sheep joke there is? Are we allowed to say? I mean, it could be offensive to some people. I castrated lambs on dirty jobs with my teeth. Yeah.

Okay? And we got it on the air. I think you're safe. Oh, yeah. Yeah, sheep docking. Yeah. Well, this is pretty bad. I mean, I don't know where...

I was hoping to come onto your show to entice people to watch Toughest Nails, but if they hear this joke, they might be like, I'm not watching that show. Nobody does anything directly anymore. It's all oblique. So you reel them in with a sheep joke, and then we'll make sure they know it's a, you know, CBS on a yeah it's CBS right yes Mike it is yeah what night Phil it's Wednesdays it's Wednesday nights it's when oh oh look are you making New Zealand disappear Chuck what are you doing yeah this is a meme that I just found online when I googled like what you said yes world maps without New Zealand

and now this is one that's missing it and someone is putting it in and just going it's blinking like a stop sign or something yeah I mean how do you miss a country the size of It's pretty big. Nobody leaves Japan next to Australia, but wow, yeah. Yeah, nobody forgets about Japan. Yeah, you're right. Or Great Britain, Cuba or Jamaica.

No, yeah. Anyway. Haiti. Haiti sometimes gets glossed over. That's true. In Dominican Republic, yeah. So in exchange for reminding many, many millions of people that A, New Zealand is a country

and B, tough as nails can be seen on CBS Wednesday night. in the eight or nine o'clock hour or something like that? It's actually 10 o'clock. Yeah, it's 10.9 central. And I got to say, I'm not happy with the time slot, Mike. I don't know. We've got to have to change that.

Our first season was on at 8 o'clock, and it was perfect. Because we have a lot of kids, and we have a lot of working class people who go to bed early because they get up early. And we ended up with a stockpile of tough as nails because we shot so many. And they tried some other shows last year, and so we didn't get a great slot.

Now we're on at 10 o'clock on a Wednesday night, and our lead-in is lingo, which is a... Anyway, the audience is not happy about where we are. Well, hey, look, file this under Cry Me a River, but Dirty Jobs is back, and they put it on Sundays at 8, opposite, a real loser called Yellowstone, and this other thing called NFL football, right?

So, you know, we're in the grown-up room, Phil. We have the shoulders, Mike, we have the shoulders to deal with this burden. You and I are going to forge together, toughest nails, dirty hands. We're in the same ethos. We will carry on. Like the hardworking men and women of America,

we will not just, you know, sleep in. We will continue to go to work and get the job done, Mike. And I know how we'll do it. You, in a variety of rich and surprising accents, will lay down a vocal much like you just did. and I in the background, in a crisp, well-modulated baritone, will sing something along the lines of, When you walk through a storm, keep your head held high,

and don't be afraid of the... We could get that crap on the air, dude. I could see you and I doing Oklahoma, sweeping down the plane. When the wind comes sweeping down the plane. The waving wind shells sure smells sweet. Look at that. When the wind comes right behind the rain. Comes right behind the rain.

Take it on the road, Michael. Sure. Yes. Now, in spite of what you just did, you do have a musical background. I do. Are we going to have to pay a royalty? No, they just send a bill straight away. Yeah, you played the violin.

You played the violin when you were just a wee lad. I started when I was three with the Suzuki method playing by ear. My mom's a music teacher. Grew up with music. And my mom, when we lived in Antigua, she had 80 students, 80 piano students. and theory students, and both my brother and sister play. My brother is a professional musician. It lives in L.A. and around the world.

And I still occasionally will pick up the fiddle and have a little fiddle. Love music, absolutely love all kinds of music, and I do love singing in the shower. When does a violin become a fiddle? Is it similar to when a vase becomes a vase? What's the determining characteristic? I don't know what the official, Chuck, please look it up. I don't know what the official explanation is, hurry up, Chuck.

But I do believe that a fiddle is a fiddle when it's part of folk music. And a violin is a violin when it is part of more classical music and where you're like it's more of a formal, Chuck. How are you going with the looking at us? So it's the same instrument. Like you could take Estradavarius and play at a square dance. And that'd be called fiddling. I guess so.

Okay. Yeah. I've looked it up. There is no difference. A fiddle is a violin. It's just, you know, what you call it. Potato potato. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, that's fairly interesting. Have you seen the video that everybody has seen, some Kiwi, is talking about a deck sealant? Oh, my God. Yeah. It's a greatest ad ever. I really like my dick. Yeah. I like my dick, you know?

Yeah. I like the kids to come over and play on me dick. Sometimes I saw a squirrel out there. I'm a dick. Yeah. All the neighbours, they can't stop steering at my dick. They love to come over and stand on my dick. My neighbors are envious of my dick.

And then the neighbors across the way and he goes, shut up talking about your dick. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We haven't said anything offensive. Nothing. Nothing. That's spelled D-E-C-K for the audience listening.

Just clarifying. What are you talking about, Chuck? Why do you feel the need to have to clarify? We're talking about dicks. And when you... Sometimes I randomly say, spell words and that's one of them. Fiddle, F-I-D-D-L-E. You've got to get a good sealant on your dick and then the weather doesn't get at it.

And it'll last longer. Your dick will last for years if you've been a good sealant on it. Well, you've got to make it waterproof, right? You've got to make it waterproof. All right, sidebar, tangent. You just said waterproof. That reminds me, and forgive me, Phil. your mom and I are the same people. Your granddad and I are the same basic people. The musical background is virtually identical, except that I don't fiddle. It's weird that you know Oklahoma, but you do, sort of.

But water. Water. Water. Water. You nearly drowned in it once upon a time. And when I read the story of what happened to you as a kid, scuba diving, again, I was like, I can't believe we're living these weird lives. I nearly drowned in a scuba incident during Shark Week about 15 years ago, and it changed the way I thought about everything.

You know, it changed the way food tasted for a while. It changed the way flowers smelled. You know, those kinds of near-death experiences, but you don't have to make a meal of it if you don't want to. But I do want people to understand the inciting incidents in people's lives. you know, your granddad, your apprenticeship program, all of that. Tell me what happened when you dove on that wreck 120 feet below the surface and just how bad things went off the rails. Well, I grew up in the water.

Growing up in the Caribbean, I was like a fish. I used to spearfish and snorkel. My godfather, who recently became part of the oldest rowing team to row across the Atlantic, would take me out on the water. He taught me how to use an outboard. He taught me how to fish. And so being in the water was just a part of my life. I'm very, very comfortable in the water

and started scuba diving in my teens. And very comfortable. And one of the first assignments that I had as a on-camera person was when I was 19. And the show had been running for about 20 years. And I literally got plucked out of being, an apprentice television, you know, it was an apprentice television person. I got plucked out of that at a Christmas patty after a couple of beers, ended up auditioning and end up on this show,

and people would write in and get us to go do things. That was the job. It would be like, oh, I'd love to see Phil go dive this shipwreck, or I'd like to see Ollie, who was somebody else on the show skydiving, whatever it was. So the assignment I had was to dive on a 22,000-ton Russian cruise liner that sank in the Marlborough Sounds that was sitting on its starboard side about 120 feet like I said. And so the starboard side being the right side of the ship. And there was quite a strong current that would run, because it's just outside the channel, and there was a strong current, three, four not current running through that area.

And when I went diving on it, it had just opened up as a dive site. because up until then, they were still opening up the safes, and I think the Russians might have wanted to get a few documents off that ship. So the government was working with him, I think, to make that happen, facilitate that. So I went down with the guys. Where exactly was it again, Phil? Where was the wreck? It was in the Marlborough sounds in New Zealand, the northern part of the South Island.

And the guy that I was with was part of the salvage crew. He was in charge of getting everything off that ship. He took me down and we set up a shot where we were going to meet in the ballroom of the, like a big patty room, I guess, in the ship. And in order to stop the silt getting stirred up, the crew was going to come in from one entrance and this diver and I were going to come in from another and we were going to converge so that the water wasn't murky. And then we would shoot a shot. and this was, we had an underwater camera that was shooting film. Because when I first started in television, I was still shooting film. So you literally couldn't see whether you got the shot or not, you know.

Wait, wait. This means you've got like five, maybe eight minutes of footage, right? Like maybe 100, 200 feet of film. Yes. And you're down 120. Yeah, it was. So I just want people to understand. That's a very different deal than scuba diving, you know, in a coral reef 30 feet.

You're down that far. You're burning through O2 way faster than you otherwise would. You're on the clock. I didn't realize you were shooting film. That just makes it. Yeah. Two and a half minutes, the roll, there were daylight spools and a big 400-foot roll of film that we used to use, the 7298 and 7-6-8-4-8, sorry, I think was the stock codec,

would last 10 minutes in a roll. But for the underwater camera, we had a daylight. spool, which was a hundred feet, and that gave us two and a half minutes of shooting. So you had to be very, very, you had to really plan out your shooting in those days. We had a six to one shooting ratio for cost because you had to process all the film. And we were shooting reversal, which is not as nice as negative, less latitude, very tricky. And you have to really, really think about every single shot. So in order to save time, and like you said, Mike, because we're so deep, you're sucking,

the deeper you go, the more air you suck through. You know, it's just science. And that is deep. You know, like an advanced diver is not meant to go down below 100 feet. So this is deep. Your three atmospheres, basically. Yeah.

Exactly. And so we go down and I'm with this diver. And we've gone through a labyrinth of twists and turns and we've gone through all these tunnels and we arrive in the ballroom and it's massive. And we shine the light around and it's huge inside there. But imagine everything. is tipped over so your perspective is all out of whack because the tables are bolted to the floor

and they're on the wool and there's no light coming in and you get completely disorientated and I couldn't for the life of remember how the hell we got in. And one thing that I realized now was a big mistake because I've since done a lot of wreck diving and I've got my cave certification, ice certification. I ended up diving the world's longest water caves after this experience because I was trying to scare myself again and feel like I was really living. But what I realized was we never took a line in, which is a big, big mistake. So I didn't know where out was.

And we go in and there's quite a current. So I'm holding on to the table, you know, with this water pushing against us. And the diver that I was with told me he was going to do this. He signals me to turn off the light to save battery power and for us to just relax so that we're not sucking through the air. and we're waiting for the crew and the crew don't arrive

and we're maybe 30 seconds waiting there in the dark and then this dive buddy of mine flicks on his light a little bit like when you're a kid and someone does the scary faces with the light underneath and I see him flick the light on and then he signals me wait

like you wait and then points at where my hands are holding onto the table like wait and hold on and then he's gone, like in a flash, he's gone. And he disappears around a corner, and I realize that I'm in the dark, I don't know where I am,

and he's just left, and I don't really know why. Like, I found out later that he was going to look for the crew, like why were they lost and all of that. So I just was overwhelmed with panic, like thinking, did he go up because there's something wrong with him, or I just didn't compute that he was going to look for the crew. Did he need to go to the surface?

Did he really mean to ask me to wait? Was I meant to? Like, and if I move, he'll come back. He won't know where I am. And I don't know where out is anyway. Because all your bubbles, when they float up and you're on your side, they go everywhere. They don't necessarily go up.

They'll go along walls. So I just started to panic, like majorly panic. And then the first thing I want to do is turn on my light. So I let go of the table, start to drift on. hit another table, I get the light on. By the time I shine the light around, I've completely silted up the area because I'm kicking like crazy. And I'm beating so fast on the regulator that there's a little valve, as you know, in the regulator, and you're meant to breathe nice and slow. And the diaphragm moves for inhalation and out for exhalation. And I'm going so fast

that I'm like tasting water. Yeah. And then I realize that I'm in a massive panic. And then I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I've got to go back to the table. But then I look at my gauge. I'm like, yeah, but I don't have air. I need to get out of here. But which way do I go? I'm trying to think of which way I came in. I could not for the life of me.

I'm completely spun around. And I'm just in a mad panic. And I thought, oh my God, I'm going to die in here. Like, I never thought about dying. My whole life, I never thought like I was invincible. You know, I'm 19. You don't think about dying. You don't think you could ever die.

I used to do crazy stuff. You just never, you think you're invincible. Especially when you're on TV, right? Like it's a whole different, like that camera just gives you bigger balls and makes you dumber. Absolutely. It does make you dumber. Yeah, it's like you're watching a TV show and somebody's written the script and there's

always a good outcome. And you're a part of that good outcome. Anyway, I don't know how long I was in a panic state. the only way I can equate it, and I'm terribly claustophobic, so it was very hard for me to go in there in the first place, but I was too scared to tell anybody because I thought, it's not very manly to say I'm claustrophobic, and so it was already a challenge for me to get in there.

So I don't know how long I panicked, but I do remember sort of getting pulled through the back through the ship. And my first really good memory is lying on the deck of the ship and looking up and seeing this blue sky and a beautiful puffy cloud like just floating by. And I had this feeling, I can't describe it, but like I'd been born again.

It was like the hand of God came in and grabbed me and put me back and reset me. And I looked up, and I just felt so alive and felt so happy. And I remember just like smiling, like, oh my God, and processing. And then heart rate, and then come and then so the first thing I did that I wanted to do was to write this list

of things that I would have regretted not doing in my life all I had at the time was a paper bag which I got from the dive boat and I just started writing lists of all these things like what and there were all kinds of things they're very selfish things I want to climb Mount Everest I also hadn't had a lot of experience with women so there were a few things on there that I'm not a shame to admit. I've since got married and have a kid, so I might have tick those off. But very selfish things, you know,

things that I wanted to do for myself. And that list really is the impetus for my, what's become the rest of my life, traveling, meeting people, new experiences, ticking things off and achieving all kinds of crazy things, breaking a world record. And, you know, later in life, raising a million dollars for a charity

is something I've achieved and doing things for other people. people. We had a perfect, my wife and I had a professional woman cycling team, you know, certain bike races I wanted to go in. I retraced a 1928 tour to France. It's a toughest physical thing I've ever done. And by the way, it's a beautiful, beautiful doc. I don't know what you shot that thing on, but this was the English team, right? In 28 and you were using bikes with like one gear and doing like that original route. That was, that was a thing, man. Yeah, so the 19th, it was the first English-speaking team to ever compete in the Tour de France.

And there was one New Zealander and three Australians. They were an Australian team, under-resourced. They go to France. It's an underdog story, you know, and it's sort of typical of the New Zealand culture. We're always underdogs. We're always punching above our weight, you know. First man to climb Mount Everest is Sadman, Hillary, New Zealander. First man to split the atoms, Sir Ernest Rutherford.

We're a country that tends to. to punch above our weight where what you call battlers you know we we've always got a chip on our shoulder and something to prove it's sort of who we are and so i just loved this story i read the book it was written by the kennet brothers here in new zealand and i wanted to tell the story because nobody knew it and we know all the stories about the new zealand rugby team and our high-profile sports teams but nobody knew this story so as i was thinking about how to tell the story i thought the best way to do it would be tell it from the inside out. Like to get a 1928 bicycle with one speed

and retrace the exact route on the same days over the same roads. Obviously a lot easier because a lot more of them is sealed. But a 30-pound bicycle over those same roads, I was a lot older than they were, but I did it with a buddy of mine. And it was the first documentary feature ever shot with an F-55 4K camera that Sony gave us.

Angenau is a French lens company. they gave us or loaned us 400 euros worth of glass, beautiful lenses. And then it was self-funded documentary. My mom and dad were there. No sound recorders. Just me and a good cameraman friend. Very, very handmade film. I did six passes of the film to foliate myself.

A global search for photographs because there was very little footage. So, yeah, of all the things that my wife and I've produced, it's one of the things I'm most proud of because it was made. for probably, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars and ended up at South by Southwest. And it was a way of honoring those people, a little bit like, you know, with toughest nails, honoring other people that I admire. Do do do do do do do do. The federal government is not going to close America's skills gap.

They have an important role to play for sure. But if we're serious about reinvigorating the skilled trades on a national level, we need more organizations like Skills USA making a real difference. on a local level. These guys have been around since 1965, and today they are relevant like never before with hundreds of chapters in schools all over the country and hundreds of thousands of students participating and competing every year. Nobody is doing more to train the next generation of skilled workers than Skills USA. And I'm encouraging you to at least consider being a part of this movement. Skills USA advisors and volunteers aren't just teaching trades. They're launching careers

and strengthening the backbone of our country by mentoring the next generation of industry leaders. In high school, you could be among the people who are making this movement explode. Join the skilled trades movement. Support career and technical education programs through Skills USA. There's no better way to do it. You can volunteer at a local chapter. You can start a chapter in your own town. Or you can just go to their website and see the impact for yourself and see, too, how easy it is to get involved. Thousands of kids are being introduced to the trades in a way that's absolutely positively moving the needle. The goal is a million members by 2030. I think it's doable.

I'm doing what I can to help them. Learn more at skillsusa.org slash mic. That's skills, USA.org slash mic. I'm talking skills, U.S. skills, U.S. skills. U.S.A. Not that it needs pointing out, but obviously there's a theme that runs through your life. And I don't know if it started with Jack, your pop, or the apprenticeship that you got right out of college or this near-death experience that led you to start writing your bucket list out.

Or tough as nails, or the amazing race, or 140 countries visited. I mean, obviously, you can't hold a job. That's true. It's got to be really gratifying to be at this point in your career and know that you can fund a passion project if you want to or maybe grab CBS by the scruff of the neck and say, no, guys, seriously. Not that way, this way. Trust me. And to have somebody trust you enough to do that. That's some pretty high cotton or some pretty tall poppies, as we might say. Pretty tall poppies. Well, as you know, I'm like, no matter. how successful you become at what you do, and you, like me, share a passion for telling stories

and you have an ability to, I think one thing we have in common is, or many things, but the one thing I think we love, you and I love, is when you know you're with somebody and we become the facilitators to get the best out of somebody. And it's almost the better job you do at facilitating, the less you have to do. And when those characters that you're with pop

without you having to do too much, but you just know when to pepper them with the right question or the right look and you're getting like magic from these people and you can just stand there and you see what the audience is seeing in that moment and you know you're capturing a magic moment. And essentially that's what we are, right?

We're storytellers and we're looking for those little nuggets, those little magic moments and those are the little moments that the editor is now cutting on top of each other. I remember an old boss said to me, your job is to create magic moments. And the more magic moments you create, the more we have to cut together, more choices we have. Sometimes we have to try to manufacture some of those moments

because we don't necessarily get them. But we know when you're in that moment and you're flying with somebody on camera and you know you've lit them up and they're just like giving you what you came for, there's no better feeling. And that is our job, right? You know, our job is to facilitate some presenters, I think, hosts make the mistake where they try to make it about themselves. And they don't realize that they'll look better the less they make it about themselves. And the more they make it about the people they're with.

Well, you're talking about humility. You're talking about failure. You're talking about, I mean, look, I impersonated a host for 20 years before Dirty Jobs finally hit. and it only hit because I let it all go and realized in some way I was a I was a better guest than I was a host, right? And, you know, to be an avatar, to be a cipher, to get out of the way. Personally, I don't know your thoughts on this. I think that sometimes production is really the enemy of authenticity. You need it, obviously.

I mean, you've got to, you have nothing without your crew. but how much time can you spend on a single shot? How much time can you spend in a sewer with an inspector? The answer to that, in my experience, really depends on the network. Because what you're talking about requires patience. You know, in the same way curiosity fueled your granddad's entire life. To be patient in this business is a hard thing to do. And you've done it, man.

You've done it out there standing on your dick. Well, my dick, which is water sealed. But Mike, you hit on something which, with regards to patients, and I've been involved, and I'm sure you have, where you've been asked to do something that goes against every, just goes against all your instincts. And they'll say to you, okay, here's what we're going to do. And they try to produce the moment to create a moment that you know could happen if they just let it happen. But sometimes they don't want to go fishing.

They don't have the patience that you're talking about. So they'll be like, okay, here's what's going to happen. Going to set up the camera down there. Then you're going to walk in and then you're going to say, you know, oh, my, that's a really wonderful dick you've got right there. And then the other guy is going to come walking and stand on your dick. And then they're trying to produce the whole thing. And I had this.

I won't say where I was or what network it was on. But I was so frustrated. I said, well, why can't we just shoot the first one where we see what happens? We'll always be able to go and shoot the one that you're talking about, which is everything's set up and you're going to produce this and you're going to... I said, but the very first time that I see this, whatever it is, because I don't know much about it, and the first time that I interact with this person,

because I haven't met them before, let's at least capture that on camera. Why would you want me to go meet them and say hello and lose that? And they don't get it. They don't get it. And so that's why with crews that I work with, with, there's a guy I've been working with a shooter for 30 years. We have a code that we don't talk production in front of anybody.

He just disappears like a vapor into the background. They never know when we're rolling. They never know when we stop rolling. We just move in and float. And the best compliment that I can get is when I'm with somebody and they go, are we rolling? When I get that, I know that we've literally just rolled in there and then they become aware of the camera.

Are we rolling? I'm like, yeah, we're rolling. Just keep talking, you know, and then you just keep going. Of course. Because you've got to get them in that state of mind. And that takes patience. That was rule one. And you get that.

Well, we called it, it was just NSR. Never stop rolling. You're not camera A. Never stop. You're not camera B. You're all behind the scenes cameras. You stay tight. You stay wide.

You float around. Don't get in each other's way. But if you do, don't panic because the viewer knows, you know, their cameramen out there. There's a camera there. It's okay. The other thing that I think a lot of people forget is the listening part of it.

And I always say to the crew, the most important thing you can do, I don't care if you screw up the shot, if you're not in the best position to get the shot, it doesn't matter. The audience will make an excuse for a bad shot, but they will not make an excuse for a bad story or bad audio. Our number one goal is to record the audio,

listen. Listening dictates what you shoot, not the other way around. You don't shoot and then do the audio after. If this person is talking about something, Someone's got to have it, grab it, show the audience. It's picture telling. It's accompanying what's being said with a shot.

And that's where I love great camera operators who really get that and who really listen. You get in the edit room and you're like, yeah, they get it. Sure. They get it. There are a thousand ways to skin the cat. But to me, this whole conversation comes back to that's fairly interesting because that. Oh, it is. This has been a fairly interesting conversation.

I mean, not great. I don't want to overstate it. But no, it's like, I had a similar conversation with Bear Grills years ago about managing expectations. And he had taken some heat because you'll remember some footage came out. And he apparently was in a hotel instead of the tent. Hotel. And there was a, right? It's like, look, man, your show starts with a promise.

And the promise you make is to arm the viewer with information that could save your life. Right? I mean, the stakes couldn't be higher. Drink your own urine. It's great for you. It'll be great. You goggle with it. People will love you. Cleans it out your tons. And I was like, look, that's cool, but that's some pretty tall poppy stuff, right? That's some high cot. Yes. And on Dirty Jobs, Jane Root, who was the executive in charge back in the day, had me write a mission statement. And I hate mission statements. They're so earnest. I didn't want to do it. But like your bucket list, I wrote mine on the back of a brown paper bag. And it said, my name's Mike Rowe. This is my job. I explore the country looking for people who aren't afraid to get dirty, hardworking men and women who do the kinds of civilized jobs and make civilized life possible for the rest of us. But if you break it down, what in the hell is that? You know, I explore the country. I didn't say I'd find anything. Looking for people, didn't say I'd find them, who aren't afraid to get dirty. That's it. I mean, nothing happens on dirty jobs, except I hang out with some people, have a few laughs and maybe learn some things along the way. I'm like, bear, you can't get in trouble.

with a promise like that, because that promise is fairly interesting. I agree. And wow, the more I think about it, the more I feel like the ability or the inability to manage expectations. I don't care if you're running for office or trying to get a TV show off the ground. Or like Chuck, just trying to hang on to your job for another week or so, you know? That's all I got, man. The other thing that is so important is being honest with the audience. So I learned this early on.

Never try to pull the wool over the audience, you know, over their eyes. like always just be totally up front about what's going on. So, for instance, I remember we were in Costa Rica and I was shooting a show called Adventure Crazy. It was for Discovery. And return up on the day. And the volcano that was in the background, was meant to be in the background, wasn't there

because it was completely overcast. And we had a budget of $32,500-something thousand dollars an episode. So we had nothing. I mean, we were, we shot a, show in a day, a 30-minute show, that nudist resort show that Chuck was talking about, nude awakenings, that was part of Adventure Crazy. And Adventure Crazy was my list of things to do before I died show. And anyway, Costa Rica, so go to Costa Rica and we're there. The volcano is not in the shot. So this is what we would normally do. So just be totally honest,

I said, okay, so we turned up here on this random day. I have to shoot the show in one day. and chances are that some, you know, every now and again, things don't turn out the way you want them to. So we're meant to be standing here and looking at that volcano. And I can't show it to you because there's cloud. Now, if I had a budget and I could stay for a few more days, I'd hang out. We'd go, you know, off to a hotel somewhere and wait until we got the shot. We'd come back here and we'd show it to you. I don't have it to show to you.

So I do have this postcard and I just held up a postcard and then lined it up and said this is what it looks like. I mean, this postcard is as good as if the. post-cate, you know, the thing was here. And so just own it. But yeah, going back to the bare grills thing, I think the reason that people were just annoyed was this like, don't try to fool me. Like, we're smart enough, savvy enough. Don't bullshit me. Just give it to me straight. You're going to a hotel. It's very funny. You can say, well, look, you know, if I was, if I was surviving out here, I would sleep in the wilderness, but no, I'm going back to a nice hotel where they've got 800 thread sheets and I'm going to have a nice beer.

tonight. Correct. I mean, just own it. Yeah. Own it. So, yeah, that authenticity comes from the audience, I think, loves that because... Well, they'll trust you, dude. Then they feel like they're a part of traveling with you. I watched that show. I watched Adventure crazy. I saw you go to a nude

wedding. I saw really more in that episode than I wanted to see of a lot of people. So did I. Yeah, so did that. But the thing I loved about it was the same thing I loved about my version of that show, which was called Evening Magazine. It was a daily show, right? And so we were throwing all kinds of mud against the wall. We could try anything

we wanted, but it was patient. There was no urgency to it. Like, there are pieces in that episode where you don't see a cut for eight, nine, ten seconds where the camera just stays. And you get a sense of who the people are. Broadcast nets just won't let you do that. They just won't let it happen. They've got ADD. That's right. Do you worry that the platforms like TikTok are destroying the campfire, sit around a campfire, tell a good story, part of our culture, that we're becoming so fragmented with our listening that we can't. Just, do you worry about that? Constantly.

Chuck and I were just having this conversation the other day. And I forget who I told this to, but I, oh, I think it was Theo Vaughn. I was on his podcast. And he asked me a similar question. I'm like, well, here's what happened to me. Like, I'm 60 years old. I feel like I've been there and done it and that I'm in. immune to a lot of the temptations that you're talking about. But I walked into the bathroom

a couple months ago, and I sat down to take care of business, and I had my phone with me. Okay, so that tells you all you need to know. I've already crossed over to the dark side. Full grown man shouldn't sit down on the toilet with his phone, but I did. I was reading something, and I really couldn't wait until I got to the end of the paragraph to do what had to be done. So there I am, sitting on the toilet, and somehow or other I get on Facebook, and then I get on reels. and then I'm flicking with my thumb, going through the reels, and I'm watching the reels. And this thing, it knows the kind of thing that I want to watch. I don't know how, some sort of mind meld, but it's feeding me a constant, steady diet of images

that release just enough dopamine to keep my ass on the bowl for approximately 25 minutes. I sat there, Phil, in another, like in a trance with my thumb just flicking through these reels. to the point where I finally got myself straightened out, I stood up and nearly fell on my face because all the blood, you know, was no longer in my legs. My legs went numb because social media interrupted my constitutional. So do I worry about it? Yeah, man, because it's impacting me.

So what's it doing? Imagine a dude going through that same similar thing, only he's looking at pornography. So it's heightened times a gazillion. Imagine an 18-year-old. It's so powerful and it's so not what TV was. I don't know what it is. But yeah, I worry.

Do you? You got a, what, 20, 21-year-old little girl, right? I have a 27-year-old. She just got engaged. Oh, my God, 27. And she's a great storyteller. She's a producer and she's moving on to a new documentary series shortly. Ever since she was a little girl, that was my thing with her to read to her.

every time I was at home, she would always want me to read to her, and I loved reading to her. We read all the Harry Potter books together. We read Dr. Seuss when she was younger, Harry MacLery from Donaldson's Dary and Vitzel von Crum with a very low tongue, and Hercules as big as a horse, and bits of Maloney, old skinny and bony. Anyway, I loved all the rhythm of reading to her, and it was our time. And if I tried to skip pages, she would stop me. She knew all the beats of the story. Dad, you skipped a page, you know, because I was trying to get to bed myself. I might have been tired. What I feel like when I listened to her, she just watched,

I don't know if you've seen it. Is it the offer? The making of the godfather? The making of the godfather, yes. It's called the offer. Yes. It's amazing. Yeah, the offer. Amazing. Yes. So my daughter, she watched it and was telling me how much she liked it. And I had, it started this conversation with her and I said, Elle, do you think that your generation, they, like are going to want to continue to watch series like that. And she said that she thinks there's going to be a shift back to more substantive story sharing and that people will get away from that quick fix. Because I watch people, I'm sure you're the same way, you're observational, wherever you go,

you sit on a bus or you sit on a plane. I'm constantly studying people and they're seeing what they're doing and sometimes pretend, I've got my headphones on, but really I'm listening. I just love studying people. You're a stalker. And I am a bit of a stalker. And I watch people on TikTok, and it's really scary. Like, the most amazing piece of video will hold their attention for three, four seconds, and flick.

And then maybe they like hair or something, and there's somebody with their hair on fire. And that lasts like seven seconds, flick. So I do worry. but I feel hopeful that at the end of the day, and my old boss said to this to me once, you have got to figure out a way that if you were sitting around a fire and you had a group of people sitting around a fire,

that you could hold somebody captive with a story by just telling that story. Yeah. With everybody sitting around a story. If you can do that and then add all those other layers that we have access to, then you can hold an audience.

I think there's great hope in that. You know, I think sometimes things have to go splat before they get better. But in the same way that your granddad's curiosity and patience don't seem alive or well today, vis-a-vis the short attention span theater and the TikToks and the reels and all that, we're also living in a time where, you know, we've got half a million people still listening to the conversation we're having right now an hour and a half into it. You've got millions of people every week who listen to Joe Rogan three hours at a time. There was a conversation last weekend between him and Jordan Peterson.

It was three hours and ten minutes long. And it flew by, Phil. It was riveting. And it's not just riveting to me. There are lots of people out there who are hungry for an opportunity to be patient and to let their curiosity be satisfied in the way that you and I remember, growing up. I bet you and I are going to live long enough to see the return of a Marlon Perkins kind of, you know, Wild Kingdom or a Robert Urick hosting, you know, explorer.

Yeah, because we're just going to become exhausted with the cleverness and the sophistication of the production and the speed. And there's really nothing. I mean, you can only go so far before the pendulum comes back. I'm looking forward to it personally. I'm excited to hear you say that because at the end of the day, with all the technology that we have, there's nothing like a really good story, you know?

And I think human beings, we're programmed to want to hear a good story, a good joke, a good aside. We want to connect. It's just, it's in our DNA. And I hope that there's a swing back the other way, like you said, and we can just get back to, Do you remember Heel Hauser would go out and just talk to people in California Gold?

California Gold. Stand there with that giant microphone. Dude, that's what I'm talking about. That's what Evening Magazine came out of. No pretense, no artifice, just a kind of socially awkward dude who's curious about the world around him. Super curious. Still for sale. I watched that show.

Yeah, it's still on. And I just loved that he loved people. and I wanted to hang with him. You know, he was the guy like, I would be thinking, I'd love to go have a beer with that guy. And that's kind of what I try to do. And I think that's the person that people, I think that's why people gravitate towards your style of storytelling.

Because they really do feel like they could go and have a beer with you and have a good time. And there are some storytellers that are so, they feel so inaccessible. They don't feel like the every person. They don't feel like that person you want to go and actually have a beer with because they kind of are separating themselves or they see themselves on a different pedestal

or it's just beneath them. But you can tell when someone genuinely gives a crap about somebody and wants to share a story, not because they want to show themselves off, but they want to show a story. Yeah, there are two kinds of good shows, right? There's the kind of good show that you just watch because the story is interesting

and there's so much to admire in the way it comes together and so far. And then there's the kind of show that makes you wish you were there with the people. That's why Amazing Race worked and still works for me. And, you know, I want to give Chuck a chance to ask you a question because his family is crazy for that show. They're crazy for it, right? His brother has been up his ass for years. And you and I have got to go on the Amazing Race.

I think a lot about the kinds of questions that you ask, not just the TikTok stuff, but, you know, why did dirty jobs work? Why do some shows work better than others? And to me, the determining thing is always, do I wish I was there at the nude wedding with Phil and that group of people? Do I care at that level? So it's lightning in a bottle, brother, when you find it. And especially if you can draw a line back to somebody like Jack. like your granddad, especially if you can make it personal and still have people say to themselves, ah, you know what, I wish I was there in the sewer with him.

Yeah. That's pretty great. Yeah, no. Do do do do do do do do do. My guest today, Tom Olbenis, is an American giant. And I'll tell you why. Tom understands on a fundamental level that the business of mining is a non-negotiable prerequisite of our civilization and our economic independence, just like the business of making things.

American Giant knows this, which is why they committed themselves 16 years ago to make all their excellent clothing right here in this country. It wasn't easy, but they did it. They sourced locally grown cotton, and they built factories in towns across the nation where they could hire hardworking locals who cared about making a quality product. And then they went about the business of gently reminding people that when you buy a piece of clothing from American Giant, you're not just buying a high-quality sweatshirt or t-shirt or another pair of jeans. You're investing in a local supply chain. You're supporting communities from the Carolinas to California.

And you're getting a piece of clothing that won't just survive the wash. You're getting a garment that'll get better with age. Check out their high-quality staples, hoodies, tees, denim, built to be worn. year after year at American dash giant.com slash Mike. It's quality you can feel and a true American success story that you can be proud to support. Use code Mike. Get 20% off your order at American dash giant.com slash Mike. American Giant American Made.

American Giant American Made. I love that. And I think we're in a very privileged position that. that we get to share stories. And to me, there's nothing better than, like I was talking about before, facilitating. And one of the great things that has come out of Tough As Nails is we kind of turned the reality competition format

on its head. And that was part of the reason that it was such a tough sell is that most reality competition shows are about you're in or you're out. You're on the island, you're off the island, you're on the race, you're off the race, you're a good designer, You're not a good designer.

You made a good dish. You're chopped. You're chopped. And so what I said with a pitch I had was, okay, we spend months looking for the most captivating characters in America. We fly them in. We invest in them. Why would we want to kick them off the first episode?

What about if we have two mutually exclusive competitions? We have an individual competition where, yes, they're competing. for that title. And you're either good enough or you're not. And there's real consequences. And Americans love competition, fair competition. You're either going to be the toughest nails champion, or you're going to punch out and you're going to lose your shot. But you don't go home because we have a team competition. And most people in the trades understand team because they work on construction sites with teams. They work in the sewers with teams. They milk cows with teams. They make things as teams, fixed roads, build bridges, up in skyscrapers, ironworkers, carpenters,

they're all part of a team. And they are literally in many times life and death situations where they got each other's backs. How many people go to a, you know, if you go to an office building, you're not really worrying about somebody covering your back. But if you're a cowboy in the sky and you're building a skyscraper, you need that person to cover your back. Your life depends on that person when you run into that burning building. or when you serve in the military. And so those are the people that I thought, well, if we have a team competition, we're going to set up, if luck is the residue of design, we're going to set up these wonderful moments for potential redemption.

So the person who punched out the first in the individual is going to come and come through for their team. They have a chance to do that. In this last season, it happened almost like if it wasn't a reality show, people wouldn't believe the way it worked out. Couldn't have scripted it. And so that's where I love that those people on those teams, who are part of Savage Crew and Dirty Hands, names of the two teams, wearing orange and green shirts,

they have separately, now after five seasons, all got together as groups because they all have this thing in common. Extended had nothing to do with Louise, my wife, and producing partner and I, nothing. They've connected. They have reunions and they have group holidays, and they go to Vegas together

and they do all kinds of things together. We've managed to bring them together and bring a pride to what it is that they do and put them on a pedestal. Like Jake, the pipe worker, you know, the pipeline worker. So, yeah, that's one of the things I'm most proud of is that we have brought pride to a group of people that felt that they were neglected

or not thought highly of or not respected. That's all I'm asking for is just... Acknowledgement. Just respect what they do. Yeah, yeah. That's all. Nothing more. All you really did was get out of the way. That was the big lesson on jobs, too. It's like there is a band of brothers mentality on every work site, every decent work site I've ever visited. There's also a ton of humor. Tone of humor. That band of brothers mentality and that humor got arbitraged out of a lot of TV shows that, frankly, dirty jobs spawned. People just didn't quite. get it. It's not really about the exploding toilet. It's not really about the spectacle. It's about the trip. It's about the journey. You still owe me a sheep joke before I shamelessly plug

Tough as Nails, which I think is on Wednesdays at a real shit time slot, 10 p.m. as I recall. But there it is. Nine central. Nine central. You got that. If you live in the central, the time zone, you're good. And they have these devices now where people can do catch up, Mike. Have you heard about that? You know, these, you can actually like, you can actually like, yeah, yeah, they put the show on platforms. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

I've got a VCR. A VCR. Yeah. Tape stuff all the time. You know, Dirty Jobs audience goes up by about 50%. Yeah. Three days after it airs. Yeah.

That speaks to the love of that people have for your show. No, it speaks to the love of Yellowstone in the NFL, which they're going to watch in real time. That's what that speaks to. Yeah, but we have that on Amazing Race as well. I think we are the highest catch-up show on the CBS Network, if I'm not mistaken. Again, because there are so many big behemoth shows out there, and Amazing Race tends to get pushed around a little bit because it can always get an audience. It always gets an audience.

And so there's some shows that are more resilient. you know, Toughest Nails now has sold into Belgium, Netherlands, and Denmark, where it just did really well. And we're talking to other countries. There's 25 countries who have licensed the format. And it's very rare for a U.S. format to go overseas. A lot of times we take overseas format. But that's, to me, one of the most satisfying parts of making Toughest Nails is having this journey of running into a dead end for over a decade. And again, I don't want to say, I told you so, or we were right and you were wrong.

Because as you know, the most successful reality producers, Mark Burnett and people like that, they've had their fair share of shows that, you know, coming off the back of Survivor, you would think, oh, well, they know everything, they know how it works. The reality is we know, and that's why I'm not gloating with it, with the fact that we've managed to make it as a success, we know that it is literally, like lining planets up. Who's the person in front of the camera? What's the format like? Do they like the characters that are on there and the content? And there's so many things that have to line up. And with the choices that we have, the fact that we have shows that people want to watch,

quite frankly, it's a miracle. It is like liquid, you know, gold. It's, you know, lightning in a bottle, as you said. Yeah. Chuck, I'm probably going to fire you it next week. So if you have a question for Phil regarding the Amazing Race because I know you still get all wobbly around that this would be the time. Thanks for that, Mike. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce to you Chuck, a man who is soon to be fired

and who have plenty of time to compete on the Amazing Race. After recently being fired from Mike Rose Show, Chuck and his brother ended up on the Amazing Race. Their first country is a little shithole at the bottom of the world where they'll be doing a dirty job. Which doesn't appear on most maps of the world.

Ah, that's great. My brother's going to love that. You're going to go to New Zealand. Yeah, they'll be like, New Zealand? Hey, did you hear about the guy that was trying to go back to Oakland? He was on Liderman, and he was in a real mad panic, and he turned up to the United Desk, I think it was. And he goes, I've got to get back to Oakland.

And they ask him for his credit card and his ID, and he handed over his passenger for his ID. Anyway, he's on the plane. and about an hour into the flight, he says to the person next to him, it's a really big plane. You know, we're, you know, and anyway, they carry on flying

and he goes, how long is this flight? You know, it's like, we're just going to Oakland. How long? He goes, well, we're not even at Hawaii yet, and he goes, Hawaii. What are you talking about? He goes, well, where are you trying to go?

He goes, I'm trying to go to Oakland. He goes, oh, no, no, no, we're going to Auckland, Oakland, New Zealand. This guy literally. Wake me up in 15 hours. Yeah. I mean, it was one of those moments. Anyway, Chuck, we've set you up now for this question.

And you're only going to get one question, Chuck. So just take a breath. Think about it. Take a breath. Collect your thoughts. Did you ever, in all of the millions of countries that you've gone to, did you ever get scared for yourself or the contestants? No.

Okay, great. Okay, we're out of time. That went well. You know what? Why wait till next week, Chuck, you're fired now. Well, it is a question that I get a lot from Australian disc jockeys. They tend to ask that question. I see what you did there.

I do appreciate a good call back. Yes. Big call back. Well done. Well done. So, mate, have you ever been to a country and been really scared, you know, like your life isn't threat? So, Chuck, people ask me that question, and I say to them, where is the safest country in the world? And nine times out of ten, people in America will say, well, it's America.

And I'll go, well, no, it's not the safest place in the world. America is a safe place, but it's not the safest place. And then I'll ask them where America is on the list of safe countries in the world. And they are very surprised to find out where, you know, depending on the metric, that you're measuring. But I'm very surprised to find out that America isn't the number one safest country in the world. I say, you feel safe in America? They say, yes, I say, okay, well, then there are other countries in the world that you can go to that you can be safe. And I think the reason for that has a lot to do with the fact that for years until Amazing Race came

along and say prime time, every time someone saw a news story about the rest of the world or saw anything of the rest of the world, some horrible thing was happening. Political unrest, a war, a flood. It was, if it bleeds, it leads, and it generally was some foreign land, and everybody was like, why would I get on a plane

and go to that place? Because it's a disaster zone, and there's political unrest, and it's dangerous. And what I have to explain to them is, if all the rest of the world soar, of things going wrong in America, they would also get the wrong picture of America because you can go to some places in America

and you can be in trouble. So if they only showed the worst of a place, which is what news is, essentially, if it bleeds, it leads, you don't do like the good, oh, some really interesting things happen in South Africa today. Everybody went out into the streets and celebrated living. It's a wonderful place to visit.

They've got great beer and rugby. I mean, they don't do that story. They do today, you know, people went out onto the streets and they turned cars over and burnt something. Ooh, I don't want to go there. So, yeah, it's an interesting question. Well, I feel like you may have misunderstood it because what I was really asking about is, like, I've seen some of the stunts on the show where people are scaling walls and doing stuff. And that's what I mean. Did you ever, you know, walking across a tightrope, I can't think of, you know what I mean?

Were you ever afraid for contestants? and, you know, I mean, legally you probably can't say if anybody got really hurt, could you? No, well, nobody, look, I mean, safety is our number one priority, and I don't feel scared about anybody doing any of the challenges that we do. What I do feel scared about them doing is getting in a taxi or when they're on the roads and they're self-driving. I worry about that because we don't have any control over a bad driver in a taxi. But when it comes to, like, jumping off a bridge, we have so many, safety protocols that we follow, it's perceived danger, but they are most vulnerable when they are

in the care of some random driver who drives down the wrong side of the road or maybe forgets what a stop sign is or maybe has had a bad argument with somebody and is now, you know, should not be behind the wheel. So that's what I worry about the most. I don't worry about any of the stunts. There's nothing that they're doing there that is dangerous. It's just perceived danger. You know, I'm in Queenstown right now in New Zealand. And back in the 80s, my friend came up with commercial bungee jumping. He went to France with his mate, AJ Hackett. They jumped off the Eiffel Tower illegally, ended up in prison. Anyway, I ended up back here. I was just starting out in television, and we were doing a profile on him. And we went to Cowrow Bridge, which is just down the road here

and the river, and we did commercial bungee jumping for the first time, and I was one of the first people to jump, and everybody was like, oh my God, you're crazy. You're jumping off a bridge attached to a rubber band. Well, they've never had an incident with AJ Hackett Bungee. It's totally safe. It's perceived danger. People say to me, why would you want people to do that? And I go, because it opens up your mind. You need to be really, really scared in your life at least once to appreciate life. and this is a great way of doing it without risking your life. Dude, that is a fact, and that's a good place to land the plane, because where would you be today had you not been left alone in a ballroom,

120 feet below the surface, crapping your pants and silting up everything, right? If that doesn't happen, you don't make your bucket list. You don't make your bucket list, then we can start checking off a whole lot of things that probably don't happen, like meeting your wife and producing partner. and going on to write the books you've written and host the shows you've done. Yeah, you'd better be scared at some point. Chuck?

Yep. Chuck, what are we going to do to scare Chuck? I'm scared right now, man. Tell the sheep joke so we can get out of here. He really wants to hear the sheep joke. I want to hear the sheep joke because if it's inappropriate enough, Phil, and if you listen carefully, even 8,000 miles away, you will hear the sound of Chuck's sphincter slamming shut.

You know, in this day and age of canceling and all of that, I might get canceled off the planet. But, okay. Now, this is a joke. All right. No, no, no, no. Hold on. I take that seriously. So let's do this.

Let's officially end the podcast now, then tell the joke. And if we determine that you won't get canceled, then we'll just obviously let the thing play. And if people don't hear it, then they'll know that you cross some sort of line. but that we aired with discretion. Yes. So having said that, Phil, thank you so much for coming on. You were fairly interesting,

certainly in our top 200 guests. Yeah, I would like to say that you were fairly interesting as well. You should keep going with your own show. I was here basically to just see whether you're on the right track. And I think you've got some potential. Carry on with a good work.

What episode are we at? 300 and something, right? 301 or something like that. You are episodes. episode 300, Phil. You are episode 300. Is that right? Yes. And this launches. You are 300 even. No kidding. Oh, this is auspicious. I mean, we threw a party at 100. This is perfect. I love it. Okay. So again, thank you for coming. This is the end of the podcast. Goodbye. Now tell us the joke, Mike. That might get a good one. Why do Australians make love to sheep on the edge of cliffs? weiwit, wei, wei.

Yeah. Okay, that's good. Is it going to make the cut or are we going to be... We might edit it to the very, very top of the episode, so no one misses it. And then we'll go hashtag cancel Phil and we'll start collecting names. Oh, my God. And, yeah. Just so you know, they say the same joke about us.

About New Zealanders, sure. Every joke, every sheep joke is, I just don't know. you know, in this day and age, like, is that bad? I mean, are we, I don't know, because sheep and animal rights. Is it an Indian sheep? Is it a black sheep? It's a marino, probably. I mean, because the wool is soft.

I don't think you can say black sheep anymore. Oh, no. Baba, what? Baba, baba, something sheep. No, never mind. I have to, before this ends, I have to say the name, your handle on TikTok, because it just, this man is on TikTok, Mike, and his handle is... Well, I've only just started, and I started putting up

handy tips, you know, from their contestants, like how to wrap up a cable, how to do a, you know, put a ratchet strap on, you know, that sort of thing. I'm not allowed on TikTok anymore for legal reasons, but... Really? No, I haven't seen it. Yeah, it's terrible.

But Philosophis Maximus is his... Philosophist Maximus, yeah. Yeah, so I just loved that. I am affectionately known by some race fans as the filiminator because I eliminate the teams. And so they nicknamed me the filminator. And apparently before I filiminate, I raise my eyebrow like this. And so they have a photograph of me with that. And then it says, you know you want it.

You know you want to be felominated. And so the other one I get is I'm always spouting off some ridiculous fact about something. growing up with a father who's a plant scientist and a walking encyclopedia. I'm just full of a bunch of useless information. And so they called me Philosophist Maximus, the Philiminator. So I was thinking of a name, and I, you know, that's how it came about. Was it Sophocles? Yes.

Without labor, nothing prospers. Yes, or what was the other one that he said? It's at the beginning of the thing you just wrote about. your granddad, so it better be right, because I'm quoting you. I think I use that in a proposal. Well, you're quoting him, quoting me. It's a third-party quote. Yeah, it could have been Aristotle.

Could have been Plato. Who knows? It's a good one. I'm going to stop this train any moment now. Say goodbye. For the love of God. Don't we need to fire Chuck first before we end this? Technically, if you fire me before you end it, it's just going to go on and on because

no one will be able to stop the recording. That's right. I can't fire him now because he's the only one that can stop this. But rest assured, he'll be fired before next week's episode and probably rehired again. Well, I would like to thank you for having me here. Yeah, ma'am. Any time. Carry on with the good work. Keep your hands dirty.

And I will see you somewhere on the flip side. And one day, I do think it would be great to sit down and have a beer. There's no doubt that our paths will cross. Yeah, that would be nice. A nice cold beer and a chat would be great. Consider it done. I'll come to you. I'm assuming. Sounds good. I know where you are. I'm in Santa Monica. On his way to Oakland. Oakland. You're kidding. Oh, to Oakland. Right. But honest misunderstanding.

Actually, let me know the next time you're in Santa Monica. Or certainly San Francisco, because I'm in both places often. I'm back in Santa Monica in March, and I'm not too far away from where you are. So. Fantastic. Yeah. Well, take it as an invitation. It's settled. Don't hang up. We got to upload what little usable. stuff you gave us and then we'll be on our... It was fairly interesting. It was fairly interesting. I was feeling bad about going 152, but it's our 300, so it's kind of a celebration.

All right. Goodbye, everyone. Don't hang up, but goodbye. Goodbye, listeners. Goodbye listeners. Goodbye listener. We're down to one. I think everybody's rightfully sheepish at this point. They've gone. Bye. Bye, sheepies. If you're done, please subscribe.

Leave some stars ideally five. Five lousy little stars. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Granger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers

and no room for shipping delays. That's why Granger offers millions of products in fast dependable delivery, so you can keep your facility stocked safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800 Granger, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. The ocean moves us, surfing a wave or savoring the view.

The ocean delights us as playful otters restore coastal kelpores. The ocean connects us. Visit Monterey Bay Aquarium.org slash connects.