The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 314: Enes Kanter Freedom—Mr. Freedom Made a Promise to His Mother

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

Despite the bounty on his head, the former basketball star and human rights activist explains why he gave up his NBA career and tens of millions of dollars to keep a promise he made to his mom and do God's work. Mr. Freedom knows better than most that freedom isn't free.

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Visit mopar.com for complete details and a copy of PowerDrain Limited Warrant. Cummins is a registered trademark of Cummins-Inc. Graham and Hemmy are registered trademarks of FCAUS LLC. Hello, friends, it's episode number 314 of the way I heard it, and I'm fired up! I am, I'm fired up, man. That was just such a great conversation. This one's called Mr. Freedom made a promise to his mother. Because that's really where the story starts.

Ennis Cantor Freedom is an NBA star. He played for the Celtics most recently. played for the Utah Jazz before that. I met him back in November at the Patriot Awards when he was awarded. I think it was most valuable Patriot. I'll confirm that momentarily. But, you know, the guy, we just talk a lot about walking the walk. And when it comes to this country and when it comes to people who are really trying to make a difference,

there are a lot of different ways to measure them. But one way is what did you give up? what were you willing to sacrifice? And if that's the question, Chuck, I don't know. There are not many people who are alive anyway that I'd put in front of this guy. Yeah, to say everything is a little too broad

because he's still alive. And there is a bounty on his head. But keep in mind, he's probably given up $40, $50 million of money and salary for the, you know. And salary. Never even mind endorsements. endorsement deal, stuff like this.

But here's the thing that is real, you know, what else he's given up? He's given up his home country of Turkey. When I say he's given up, it's taken away from him, his family. He's been denied to see them. He can't go back to Turkey. He can't leave the United States. This is the guy, if you're not an NBA fan, and I'm not. I don't watch a lot of basketball, nothing against the players or any of the individuals.

I'm just weary of China. I'm just exhausted by our relationship with China. and I'm somewhat sickened by the way that so many people just lick their boots, you know, just to say it. It's just tiresome. And this guy brought it to a head for me a few years ago. He wore some sneakers onto the basketball court calling attention to Taiwan. Was it Taiwan or Hong Kong?

Tibet. It was Tibet. It was Tibet first. He wore the colors on his sneakers. He had special shoes made with the colors of the Tibetan. flag. Right. This guy's picked so many fights. After that, it was the Uyghurs. He's so grateful to be living in this country. He's a refugee of sorts from Turkey. We talk for the better part of an hour. You'll get his whole story. But what I really feel inspired by, honestly, is that he's exactly

the guy I met back in November. You know, he's been given many awards. He's shaken a lot of hands because a lot of people are very proud to know the guy because he took a principled position. He dug in and then he sacrificed for it. So I just said this to you offline, but I'm going to say it again. By the time this airs, I suspect the Bud Light thing will have calmed down a little bit.

I don't know. People right now are very, very upset. People are upset to the point where they're not buying Bud Light. And I'm not a big boycott guy. I've been boycotted before. I don't like it. I don't often recommend it.

But, you know, when I think about the degree to which the NBA is beholden to China, and when I think about the number of fans who simply don't care about that, and then I look at what's going on with Bud Light, you know, I wonder, I wonder what it'll take to get real fans of basketball to step back and say, no, wait, wait, this is all wrong. This is all upside down. The hypocrisy is rank. You guys have to straighten this situation out or we're simply not going to watch.

That's the threat that Ennis Freedom represents. And for putting it out there, he's lost his entire career. And it was a great career. This is a guy worth listening to. His story's amazing. And it all starts with a promise he made to his mom. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's a good one.

It's episode number 314. We'll get into it right after this. Do do do do do do do. Dumb. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth? You find yourself wishing we lived in a simpler time? Do you miss a rotary phone?

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And while you're there, pick up their free business guide, demystifying AI. It's filled with super useful information. and again, it's free at netseweet.com slash mike. That's netsuite.com. Netsweet dot slash. Tell me you remember meeting me six months ago, Ennis at the Patriot Awards, or my heart will break. You know, that day, obviously, I knew I watched you a lot,

but that day I met with so many people. Nobody people came and shook my head and congratulate me. So I want to say I remember. I want to say it to. I want to say it to it. I want to say it to the reposition as answer. No, you know what, man? I actually did something.

I can't remember the last time I stood in line to shake somebody's hand. Oh, I appreciate that, man. Well, and then I shook your hand and I thought, this isn't a hand. This is like a giant frisbee from another planet with fingers on it. A lot of people feel that way, yes. A lot of people who use that way. way. For people who don't know, the Patriot Awards were held down in Florida a few months back. It's

always a great event. And I was there this year watching people do what they do. And Ennis Freedom was welcome to the stage. What was the award you received? It was the Petit of the Year Award. It was actually the most beautiful award I've ever got because he was like so, so, big and heavy and it was uh i don't know how to explain it you know it's actually is it right now top of my show it's like they're the best place in my house it's amazing i know the guys who made them like the actual artisans who made all the awards for that for that whole event and i was obviously glad to see you receive it but dude i was so touched by what you had to say from the stage and obviously you know this. It wasn't just me, but I was looking around and, you know,

seeing a lot of talent from Fox just sitting there with tears streaming down their faces and a lot of so I guess, look, I want to hear your story. I want people to understand where you came from, what you're doing. I want to get to all of it. But, you know, the first thing I want to ask you is, are we having fun? Is this a blast or what? it is it is to me fun that just going against his dictatorships and i know it sounds very crazy but having bounced you on your head and um it's a very interesting life i'll tell you that it's definitely not boring at all but i think you know when you see the change that's where you see that you have lots of fun you know that's when you see that that spark in kids eyes or that hope that you put on people's

hard, that's when I have the most fun. So I'm like, I mean, some people say, hey, I lost my career, my family and everything, but I know the work I'm doing and it's God's work. So I'm having fun. I know you probably won't admit this, but at this point, you have to be a little tired of telling your story. And part of what I want to accomplish today is to ask you at least a couple of questions that you typically don't get. But before I ask you just to walk me through the early days and turkey and your mom and dad so people get all that. I'm wondering as an athlete, right? I mean, as a kid who played soccer and realized he was probably too tall and maybe a little too slow, right? You know, you find your way into basketball. You compete at the very highest levels.

So as we talk, I'm probably going to keep coming back to this place where as a competitor, as an athlete, as a guy who wants to win, as a guy who wants to be a part of a team, but still distinguish himself on the court and in this life, it just seems like so much of what you've done is coming from that place of a competitor. And so... You must be an athlete. Because you know what? You're the only person actually that...

Tell me about it. Because people... I mean, I see... is like the leadership as a challenge. I love competition. I go, I'm a competitor. So actually, you must play as some kind of sport to know that. I played sports as a kid. He used to kick my ass in ping pong when we went to college together. I'm actually really good at ping pong. I'm really good at it. Well, I guess so. You just stand there like a giant holding the thing and you lean over. Nobody can get it past you. But I'm not an athlete at heart. But you. But I'm not an athlete at heart.

you know what I do that I've seen you do? Because I've watched you play, and I've watched, you know, a lot of different games, whether it's hockey, whether it's basketball. I see people, athletes, always looking up at the board, right? You're always looking up at the board. And sometimes I think it might be to see just how much time is left, maybe on the shot clock, maybe in the period,

maybe a lot of different things. But the point is, the board lets you know how you, you're doing. It always lets you know how you're doing, where you stand, right? And so that's where I'm coming from. I know what it feels like to move the needle in a small way around things that matter to me. And so part of why I wanted to have you on here is because I know you've been making the rounds, and I know you're looking up at the board to see what the progress looks like, right? You know, I wish I had a question at the end of this soliloquy, but I just really, admire and I think I understand you've you've Forrest Gumped your way into a totally different world

and it's just really been fun to watch as an observer. I appreciate that. No, that definitely means a lot to me. So how in the hell did this happen? A kid from Turkey over here making trouble with the NBA. I want to actually start with this. It's actually like a kind of like a little long story. So bear with me because the environment I grew up. up in Turkey, it was very challenging, very difficult. If you're a politician in Turkey or Middle East, many of the countries in Middle East, and if you want to be elected again, the first thing you do, you do two things. You attack America, you attack Israel. Unfortunately, the base is so uneducated, and they're like, wow, look at our leader, right? He is standing tall against America. He's standing tall

against Israel. So let's vote for him. So unfortunately, that is the case. So I remember I was nine years old, and I went downstairs to play with my friends, which they're not even teenagers. And I went downstairs, and what I saw that day was shocked me so bad, and I still remember. I went downstairs, and my little friends are burning American flags. They were burning Israeli flags. And I was like, what are you guys doing? They said, well, that's what we've seen on TV, you know? They said, American peoples are evil.

The Jewish people are devil. Israel is this. Christians are horrible. They made crosses from the wood, and they were breaking crosses. And I remember they had me a flag and a lighter. And they said, well, it's your turn to, you know, burn one. An American flag. In American flag.

I got so scared, right? I threw down American flag. I ran upstairs to my mom. I was like, mom, my friends are telling me to hate America, hate Israel, hate Jewish people, hate Christians, they're evil, they're devil, they're horrible. What do I do? My mom looked at me and she was like, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but do not hate anyone before you meet him. You know? And so that day, I give a promise to my mom.

I was like, Mom, I promise I'm not going to hate anyone before I meet him. It doesn't matter what I hear about him. It doesn't matter what I saw, what I read. So when I was 17 years old, my dad didn't want me to stay in an environment like that. So he told me, you know, it's time for you to go to America and get your education and play basketball the same time. What'd your dad do? So my dad is a scientist. So he was very well educated.

And also my mom was a nurse. So they were both very well educated and, you know, we're brilliant people. Brothers, sisters? My sister is a doctor, well, trying to become a doctor, and my brother plays basketball in Japan. So, 17 years old teenager, I remember coming to America for the first time. And I remember he was, I was landing in Chicago. Before I land, I am so excited but nervous at the same time because I just don't know what to expect. You know?

Because think about the last 17 years, you hear about how hard. horrible this this country is how evil these people are you know so i just didn't know what to expect so i landed in chicago for the first time and uh i'm looking around and people are from different color different religion different culture different language i was just like i'm so nervous but I remember having conversation with my teammate for the first time and they were so nice, they were two Christians, they're like, hey man, let us take you to a mosque, let us take you to go get some halal food. I got so scared I turned around and left the locker room

because I just didn't know what they were trying to do. But then I remember the promise that I gave to my mom, I turned around and they went, they took me to a mosque. And I was like, this is so beautiful. you know and I remember I had a Jewish friend what was American and Jewish I remember that you know she invited me to over her house for a Shabbat that it was Shabbat and Thanksgiving

mixed you know and I was like Shabbat dinner she said yeah I was like I didn't know you were Jewish I was like yeah I'm Jewish I promise you I turned around and I did not talk to her a while because I just didn't know what to expect, you know? This was the devil you'd been warned about. Exactly. And then I remember the promise that I gave to my mom, so I called there. I apologize.

I was like, you know what? Sure, I'll come to do a dinner. I went to dinner, but before I went to a dinner, I called my Turkish friend who lives in America. I was like, if you don't hear from me for the next two hours, call the police. Because I just don't know what to expect. Think about it. The devil's got me. Exactly. So I went to their house. It was a beautiful dinner. You know, it was the food was amazing, really close to our food. The music, some of the dances. It was an amazing, amazing experience. Is this still in Chicago? Yeah. So then at one point I was like, what are they trying to do? Like, why are they so nice? Are they trying to brainwash me? Are they like trying to put something in my food? Like, I had no idea what they were but like, you know,

know what we had an amazing amazing time and then I'm like I remember coming back to my hotel after that dinner I got so emotional I started tearing up because I was like there are millions of kids in Middle East growing up anti-Semitic anti-West anti-American just because of those hate speeches towards these politicians you know it's the easiest way to brainwash people use religion so when the base is so uneducated, they are just closing their eyes and say, sure, whatever our leader says. So I got very much. And so just to circle back to your first point, the tried and true way to get elected in that part of the world, at least to some degree, is to express your contempt for this country and for Israel. And the better you are at doing that, the more likely you are to rise to power.

Is that what gave us Erdogan? Exactly. Actually, if you have any friends from Middle East, it doesn't happen in every country, but in some other countries. So in some of the countries, they have schools, and front of classes, they have American flag and they have Israeli flag. And if you are a student, a young student, little kid, right? If you don't step on those flags that front of the class, you're not allowed to attend the class. So think about it. Think about an innocent kid. had to step on these flags to attend the class. Being taught to hate.

Exactly. If you're not. Then all your friends will call you, oh, you are a traitor. You are this. You are dad. So I'm like, I think about all this stuff. And I'm like, this is so wrong.

We have to change it. It's a very different thing. When Chuck and I grew up in this country, everybody stood. Everybody put their hand on their heart. and everybody pledged their allegiance to this flag. Now, a lot of people didn't like it, and there's always been a conversation

about whether or not it's right to mandatorily insist that somebody pledged their allegiance. But to insist that someone pledged their hate, that's a different, right? It's like, never mind pledging allegiance to this flag. You have to stand up and pledge your contempt for that one. That's a different deal. And I don't think we have anything like that in this country to compare it to.

No, exactly. And I had, even like myself and my family was very well educated, even myself, I had so much poison in my body. But it took me years and years to get that out. I mean, I remember, like, we are all sitting in a locker room with my teammates, right? This is high school. These are like high school kids. And I saw one of my.

teammate just post something on his Facebook and he was criticizing the president. I immediately turned around. I'm like, dude, what are you doing? He said, what happened? I was like, well, you know, I saw your post and he said, okay, I was like, well, you might be in jail tomorrow. And they all started to laugh. They said, buddy, don't worry, this is not Turkey, this is America. And I was like, really confused. I'm like, what are you talking about? They said, well, we have freedom of speech, religion, you have freedom of expression, freedom of protest, Freedom of Movement, you know, just because of you tweet or you put a post out that you're not going to be in jail. I mean, I want to give you an example of how crazy that is in my home country, Turkey.

So my manager's wife is Turkish, and her dad liked one of my tweets on Twitter. That's a couple years ago. He was in jail for 13 days just because of liking a tweet. Didn't retweet it, didn't share it. No, no, no, no. Just like it. It could be even accident. I'm not saying it was an accident, but I'm just saying it could just be an accident while you scroll it down. So I was just so shocked because every person I meet was just in my mind was opening another door.

You know, it was open in my eyes and see what I was like, wow, what we have heard or seen in Middle East, it's not true. But millions of kids are believing that. And unfortunately, these terrorist groups, right, like ISIS, Al-Qaeda, or many other terrorist groups, are using that to recruit these young kids. And they're saying, well, you're doing this for the name of God. So they are evil. They're horrible. They're killing us. And then all this terrorist attacks happens.

So how long does it take for you to realize that you had been sort of programmed? in a specific way back home. How long did the deprogramming take where you got to the point where you began to like the country and then actually really care for the country? And as that's happening, what's going on in your professional career?

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You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure Talk. So I do want to give a lot of credit to my high school teammates. I went to college in Kentucky. You know, so with Coach Kalipari, we have many conversations, you know, with the coaching staff and that I went to, got drafted by Utah chess, and I went to Oklahoma. So I will say, is either like my six or seven theory in the league when I started to play for the Knicks,

I'm like, okay, these people are not the devil. These people are not, you know, horrible. these people are not what they middle eastern politician says they are you know so it did take me out actually like six seven years because i had so many questions in my head every time i see on the news and every time i see on here there whatever it was opening another door but with that door behind that door there was another question there was another conversation so i did sit down with so many and you know what I wanted to open my heart to everyone so I was literally just going around and having conversations with rabbis with pastors with my teammates with imams so I was literally just like

wanted to just open my heart to everyone and listen so I remember so many times in my hotel room I was sitting down and reading the book of Mormon you know or I was reading Bible I was reading Quran I was searching about Torah you know because my whole life, we thought that if you step into a church, then you are not a Muslim anymore. So that's what we are scared of. You know, if you hold the Bible in your hand after like a certain amount of second, then you lose your faith. So that's what they were teaching us in Turkey, you know.

So it was so hard for me to even step into a church, you know, for the first time. My whole eyes were opening and every open there was other conversations. But I do want to give a lot of credit to my teammates, and they were really patient with me. They'd sit down. We had so many conversations about faith, about culture, about, you know, being black in this country. We had so many beautiful conversations, you know? You know, it's such a shame. I don't know the history that well.

I'm sure you must. But Turkey was so perfectly positioned to be a bridge between Islam and Christianity, between the East and the West. It's such a rich, fascinating country. Why do you think it hasn't been able to live up to that promise? I mean, just like you said, Turkey was a democratic country before Erdogan. And like you said, it could be the bridge of Islam and West, but with Erdogan's policies, it's impossible.

I mean, you see where it's located, it's in Asia, Europe, it's in Middle East you know it plays a very important role in Europe and Middle East so I think they just I'm trying to tell people you know it doesn't matter how strong the democracy or the freedom we have in here

like you know one man can literally change it in a few years if you don't wake up early enough you know so how did you get crossways with Erdogan what did you do to wind up with what one two five ten? and bounties on your head at this point. Outstanding arrest warrants all over the world.

What did you do? So actually, how it started was Erdogan had a big corruption scandal, you know, in Turkey. And him and his family got cut. And he was all over the news. And after he got exposed, he was going around and, you know, put on innocent people in jail. You know, persecutors, lawyers, judges, police, journalists. He was going around and shot into media outlets. And I was like, I'm 21 years old, right?

I was like, I don't care who you are, but if you're fighting against a free media, I got to say something about it. So I said something. It was a very simple tweet. Because of the NBA platform, it became a conversation in the United States and Turkey. And I was like, even one simple tweet can affect this much from now,

on I'm going to start pay attention about what's going in my country more. So I started to study about the relationship between American Turkey, what's going on the Middle East, Turkish politics and everything. And the more I studied, the more this big, you know, news out there started to give me a platform. So I started to go out there and give interviews, write op-heads, and all that stuff. And then every time I say something, it was becoming a conversation. So Turkey hated that. And that's when they started to say, enough is enough and we are going to do whatever we can to take you now. What did that look like?

Do you remember the day you first learned of what was it an arrest order? Was it a, what was it that made you go, uh-oh? Yeah. Actually, first, they fired my dad. You know, my dad was a scientist. He got fired. My sister went to medical school for six years. She still can not find a job.

I think the saddest one was my little brother because, you know, he wanted to be like his big brother play basketball and NBA and stuff but he was getting kicked out in every team because the same last name so they were getting affected so much they had to put a statement out there and said we are disown and then actually the latter is still out there on the internet you can easily find it after that Turkish government didn't believe that they sent police to my house in turkey and they raided the whole house and they took every electronics away phones computers laptops ipads because they wanted to see if I am still in contact with my family or not. They couldn't find no evidence, but they still took my dad in jail for a while.

But we put so much pressure from here to Turkey with politicians, media and everything, they had to let him go. But then after that, you know, they revoked my passport. They put my name on Interpol list. Arras warning, bounty. They arrested me actually in Romania. There is a video out there. They try to kidnap me in Indonesia.

So after that, it just become just this whole big mess. It's like a spy novel. It is if James Bond happened to play for the NBA, right? Like, this is where it's just so crazy, and it's what I was trying to articulate earlier when I talk about, you know, looking up at the board to see how you're doing. Like, there are a couple things.

You make a promise to your mom, and if you don't make that promise, you're probably not sitting here right now. And you begin to realize you have a platform. You see your dad go to jail for 13 days because he liked to tweet. So that's got to be in the back of your mind, right? Now you know that this social thing is powerful. You've got the NFL behind you.

So you're suddenly in a position of influence. And that I think is what makes you interesting, because all of your teammates are in that same position as well. Everybody in the NBA is in a position to be as candid as they want to be, not just about what's going on in Turkey, but in China, human rights, all of that stuff, right? So I'm interested in the moment where you basically say, I'm going to use my powers for good.

I'm going to use this influence, you know. I think I get the Turkey thing, but what are your teammates saying to you at that point when they know they're playing ball with a guy who's got, you know, 10 arrest warrants out on him. First, in the beginning, they were actually really supportive. Just because of my family was involved, it was very, like, personal. So they were kind of, like, scared to ask any kind of question. But then, like, we had this big conversation in the locker rooms, and they said,

hey, we are your family. We got your back. Let us know what you need. And I remember when I got arrested in Romania, many of my teammates texted me. So at that point, I was like, this is so amazing because without my teammates, it would have felt so lonely out there. When the conversation was Turkey, they were just my number one supporter. Towards the end, it got really crazy. My last two, three years, it got really crazy because the bounty thing happened and harassed warnings and kids try to, like, kidnap attempts and all this, like, wild stuff.

So that when my teammates started to be, like, really scared. so they didn't want to travel with me in the same car, same bus. Even like when I left the country and went to Canada for the first time, they were really worried that something was going to happen because whenever I leave the country, it was like the whole intelligence service had to get involved. You know, I remember going to Canada, we had to get a promise from Justin Trudeau's office to say, whatever happens, we are not going to return you to Turkey,

We are not going to deport you back. You're good. You can come, play basketball against the Raptors and leave. So, like, everything was just too much for them. So I don't drive a car because, like, any kind of attempts. I have not drive a car in the last five, six years. So I was usually going back after, like, a plane ride. I was going back to my house with one of my teammates.

And the last year or two, like, they just told me like, hey, man, just get an Uber. or we don't want to risk our lives. We wouldn't be able to help you if someone trying to, like, shoot at us. Towards the end, they get very lonely, but other than that, you know, they were really supportive. When you say towards the end, towards the end of what exactly, were you ultimately let go? My career, yes. Okay. All right.

So that's what I want to ask you about next. But I also just want to point out that everything you just listed is the cost of opening your mouth. Exactly. Right. Everything you just listed, we talk a lot about free speech, and I know you're a big fan, but it's not free. Right. It's not free. And you started paying for it. This is what got me at the Patriot Awards, right?

We're all sitting there having a nice time. We've all had a few drinks. And we all think we're pretty sure we know why the country's great. But when you open your mouth and your dad goes to jail and your sister loses her job and your kid brother can't follow in your footsteps and your own teammates are now giving you a lot of distance and they're not getting on. the bus with you and they're not getting in the car with you, like a lot of people would stop tweeting. A lot of people would say, okay, you know, two arrest warrants is enough. No, you get four.

Now you get six. Now you get eight. Now you get ten. So all of this is leading up to the point where your career end, the American dream ends. How? What was that day? So how it all started actually was very interesting. You know, I like the poll. people accountable and I like when people holds me accountable you know I'm definitely not perfect I'm very far from perfect but I like when people calls me up so I can't fix what's wrong about myself you know so I remember I'm I'm doing a basketball camp in New York it was a beautiful day we had an amazing basketball camp and after the basketball camp all the kids just lined up front of me and I'm just sitting down like this right I'm giving them autograph and taking pictures

one by one. I remember I took a picture with this kid, but before I took a picture, his parents called me at front of everybody. Media was there, parents, kids, some of my friends, and he pretty much said, how can you call yourself a human rights activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are getting tortured and raped every day in concentration camp in China? And I heard that right? I'm like, oh my God, there are like little kids here. And this guy talking about a torture and raping, and I'm still smiling for the camera. Media is there too. So I'm like, I turn around, sir, I promise I'm going to get back to you. So I finished the cam and then I went back to my hotel. I canceled everything that day. I went back to my hotel. I started to,

you know, research. I started to research. I literally, you know, all of us have phones. So I started like the research about what's going to. over there. Is this the first you had heard of the Uyghurs? I'm trying to think. I don't think so. I was keep hearing about Uyghurs before, but I just didn't know who they are, what they do, or why they were persecuted. So I heard that. Me too. Name Uyghur before. Right. So I started to read and I'm like, oh my God, there is literally a genocide happening over there. The more I read, the more I was shit with myself. I was like, I cannot believe the last 10 years

that I only focused on one dictatorship. I mean, it's kind of understandable because my plate was full, I haven't seen my family 10 years, they still stuck there, whatever, but that's not an excuse. But on the internet, you can't find all kind of news. You don't know which one to trust or not,

fake news, real news. So I called my manager. I was like, I need you to reach out to our concentration camp survivor. Find me one. And he was very shy. He was like, what are you talking about? I was like, just find me one. So he found me a lady. We sit down and we had a conversation with her. It was like a one-hour conversation. Sorry, is this a concentration camp Uyghur? Yeah. Okay. And is this the agent who represents you athletically? Like your sports agent, your manager? Yes. I'm just thinking, you know,

I know a lot of agents and managers. I just can't imagine that phone call. Yeah, it wasn't my agent. Managers get called. And he was very shy. He's like, yeah. I think that calls. He's like, what are you talking about? And Uyghur, yeah, I need you to find me as a survivor. It's like. He's waiting for a call about an endorsement deal, right? You're calling to say, hey, can you hook me up with a concentration camp survivor?

He knows my life. I have been in, I have done so many, like, after the whole the bounty and the death threats and interpol. So for him, he was like, sure, what's next, you know? So he found me one. It was a lady. We sit down. We had one hour conversation. I don't want to go on too much details because some of the things that she told me was just like, I just couldn't believe it.

I don't know if any kids will be watching this podcast. So I don't want to go into details. Do me a favor. Go into some detail. This is just me. And it's part of the reason it's so easy to sweep so much crap under the rug is because we don't know the crap we're looking at. If we want people to understand why you would take the risks you took and make the sacrifices you made, we have to understand what's going on over there.

So she was telling me about some of the torture methods. She was telling me about how these Chinese policies have this electric stick that puts in some girls' private parts for torture methods. She was telling me about the gang raping every night. She was telling me about organ harvesting how 50, 100, whatever, doctors comes into concentration camps every night and take people's organs and sell it. She was telling me about how right now there are two, three million Uyghurs are in the camps, but actually six, seven million of them is out there on East Turkestan or Xinjiang, whatever you want to call it. And every house, they're trying to put one police. And whenever you pray, whenever you fast, whenever you read Quran, whenever you do any of that stuff, then they take notes. And they take that nose to the Chinese government and you'll be in concentration camps after a while.

So just because of you want to express your religion and you want to pray and you're saying Allah, the God, you read Quran, the holy book, then you'll be in. jail. So she was telling me about the forced sterilization abortion. She was telling me about all this stuff. So at the end, I was like, okay, you know, you got me. I will help you, whatever it takes. What can I do to help? She said, I'm good. I don't need your help. And I'm like, I stop for a second. I'm like, what are you talking about? She said, I'm good. I live in America. I live a beautiful life here. I can do whatever I want. I can say whatever I want. I can eat whatever I want. I can wherever I want. But help those two, three million, you know, Uyghurs are in concentration, get in torture and gang rape every day, help those people. At that point, I was, I don't care

whatever it takes. I'm just going to go out there and expose the whole hypocrisy. And the more you study, the more you realize the Uyghurs not only one, you see Tibetans, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese people, Mongolians, Falun Gong, and I can't just go on and on, you know? And I was like, you know what, it's time for expose this whole system. Do do do do do do do do. Dumb. I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician.

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I've got a new strategy here. It's, yeah. I mean, how do you do it? So four years ago, when the general manager of Houston Rockas, Daryl Morey, I'm sure you guys know about it, tweeted, literally tweeted something about it and said, stand with Hong Kong. It became a huge mess for the NBA. NBA lost millions of dollars.

But then a year later, COVID hit, and they took us to this NBA bubble. They said, it's not about basketball, it's all about social justice. We are more than athletes. So they put this BLM logos on the floor. They put those phrases behind our jersey, which was controlled by the NBA, we couldn't pick what we wanted to pick. So if you want out to pick,

put like, free Tibet's, free Uyghur behind, you couldn't pick. There was only 20 words that you had to pick one of those. So it was like BLM, I Can't Breathe, say her name, freedom, whatever. So like, so you only have to pick out of like 20 words. That was like the first red flag. And then we had it to bubble.

And I was seeing this like the whole hypocrisy. They were just saying, oh, we care about. social justice by a year ago, literally when Darryl said something, you were just all, you know, literally just like, didn't want to do anything through it. So I was like, okay, let's come up with a strategy. So my strategy was whenever I do, I always do the inspire kids. So I closed my eyes. I was like, you know what? When I was a kid, whenever I watched an NBA game, the first thing I was watching was the shoes. I mean, everyone loves shoes. What color they are, what brand, if they're coming.

So the next day I was waking up and telling my dad, please buy those shoes for me. Everyone loves shoes. So I come up with this beautiful idea, right? Because I was seeing during the NBA bubble, all these players were putting, riding on their shoes with a sharpie, you know, George Floyd, BLM, I can't breathe and all kinds of stuff. I was like, well, cool, there is no rule against it. So I decided to reach out to these artists around the world, which is being oppressed by their government. And I told them, I was like, I want you to put all the struggles, all the, you know, feelings, all the blood and sweat on their shoes. And I'm just going to go out there and play basketball, you know, and there is no real against it.

I add so many people. Sorry, Ennis, which shoe were you using for the artist? Like, who's the manufacturer? So I actually researched for six months because I was like, I cannot use a shoe which, has involved with the slave labor and just go out there and talk about people's freedom, you know. So it took me six months to find a company that had nothing to do with the slave labor. So it was a company in Los Angeles. And they were just handmade in it, made in America, no slave labor involved, no sweatshops.

So it was a beautiful, you know, idea. What are they called? You remember? I can't even remember the name because they told me to, I didn't want to just put the brands out there because I didn't want to put any brand. didn't want them to get any kind of like, you know, backlash. I get it from anyone. So I don't even remember the name of it. But I can find it easily.

So our first game, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure you watch basketball. I played for the Celtics. Our first game against one of our biggest rivalry, New York Knicks at Madison Square Garden, the most famous arena, right? It was open and night for them. So it was like the whole world was watching that game.

You know, it was a national. It was on ESPN. so everyone was watching it. I was like, well, it's the perfect game. So I put the shoes on, but the first topic was actually free Tibet because I just didn't want people to think, well, he's Muslim, he only supports Muslim.

I was like, you know what, I'm just going to support a group, support people which has nothing to do with my religion or culture. Tibetans, you know? So I put the shoes on, I went out there and everyone was looking at my shoes because the Tibetan shoes, the flag are very colorful. So everyone is like,

we have never seen this kind of shoes before I was like, don't worry, you'll find out soon. So warm-ups 20 minutes before the game, right? I went out and I'm starting warming up and stuff. And we sang the national anthem. We came in a huddle. It was one minute left before the game started. One minute.

There was two gentlemen from the NBA came to me. They were working for the Celtics. And they said, take your shoes off. The game hasn't started yet. I literally just only warmed up for 19 minutes. it and it was a minute before the game. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He said, well, you've got to take your shoes off because they're getting so much attention internationally. Obviously, when they say internationally was from China. And I'm like, is there an evil against it?

They said, no. I was like, well, then go tell your boss, even if I get fine, I'm not going to take him off. They said, we're not talking about it. We're talking about getting banned. So think about it. They've threatened me to get banned. So it was the perfect moment, right? I literally closed my eyes. because I was just getting ready for my citizenship test. So I closed my eyes. I was like, okay, there are 27 amendments, my first amendment, freedom of speech. I was like, no, go tell your boss. I'm not taking him off.

So I didn't take him off. First half, I played zero minutes, which I played every game before that. First half, I went back to my locker room. I looked at my phone. There was thousands of notifications. I clicked on the one that my manager sent me. He said, every Celtics game is banned in China. It literally took them 24 minutes, first quarter of 12 minutes, second quarter 12 minutes,

24 minutes to ban every Celtics game in television. So I texted them, I was like, well, that actually helps my case. That clearly shows the dictatorship and censorship. So that game, I played zero minutes. We lost the game and stuff. So after the game, I promise you, every media outlet in the, the world was reaching out and say we want a word we want to have just something like why did you do that what are you doing you know we want a sentence so we can put it in our website i told my manager

i was like i'm not doing any media i just didn't want my teammates to think that i'm doing this for attention you know so i was like you know what no media i'm not doing anything so after the first game mba called me nbpa called me the player association which I give thousands of dollars every month to protect my rights against NBA. They said, listen, MBA has been pressuring us so much. You cannot wear those shoes every game. And I'm like, am I breaking in rules? They said, no, but you cannot wear it again.

So I talk about the situation in Turkey. I did not get one phone call. Actually, Adam Silver texted me twice and said, we got your back, keep doing what you doing. I took about China one night, not a day, one night, one game. my phone was ringing once every hour. It got to a point they were just harassing me and my manager so much. I was like, you know what?

I promise you, I'm not going to wear free to bat shoes every again. They said, promise. I said, promise. I hang out the phone. Second game, I wore free Uyghur shoes. You know, they called me after the game. They said, you're a liar, you lie to us. We can't believe you're doing it.

I was like, first of all, I never lied to you guys. I never said, I'm not going to wear free Uighur shoes. I just said, I'm just not going to wear free tibat shoes. So at that point, they understand that they're not going to be able to make me apologize and take my tweet down. Because after the third game, Darryl Mori called me. We had a conversation with Darrell Mori. He said, listen, when I tweeted and said, to stand with Hong Kong, they made me took my tweet down. They made me apologize.

They actually put two different statements out there. One was for the world, was saying that we care about our employee, we care about free speech, blah, blah. The other one is a Mandarin was for Chinese government and Chinese people. They said, well, you know, you just didn't know enough about the situation and blah, blah, just all kind of stuff. So, and then after that, one of my team may walk up to me in the locker room and said, listen, man, this is your last year in the league. Have fun, smile. You are not going to be dribbling basketball in this league ever again. So I hope you win a championship, but this is it.

I was like, wow, they literally telling me that it's over just because of, I'm standing up for something non-political. I'm standing up for human rights, which I should. And they're telling me this is it. Okay. So that's a lot. But I got to say it touches so many people differently and in so many different ways. But what in the world?

Like the pressure that that must have put on, LeBron James, the pressure that puts on every other NBA player, every other owner. And honestly, Ennis, I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago. I got a good friend up here not far from where I live with season tickets for the Warriors. You know, I told her about you and about what I had seen at the Patriot Awards. And I'm like, look, I don't have anything against basketball, but I don't watch a ton of it. And honestly, it's because the NBA makes me uncomfortable.

When all of this happened, I just don't know how to spin it. I mean, what in the world does LeBron James say? And this is kind of off topic a bit, but what was his name? John, John Sina, yeah, right? Speaking in Mandarin, apologizing in Mandarin. Yeah, that was disgusting. It was crazy. I have just never seen that level of bootlicking, honestly.

You are making those guys look really, really, really, really bad. That's just one more little goody for you to deal with, right? I started to realize that all my friends, some of my calling my brothers, because they've been in this whole mess with me for the last 10 years before China, they started to vanish. It was the perfect moment, too, because it was right before the Beijing Olympics. So I try to reach out to, forget about the NBA, I try to reach out to MLB, MLS, NHL, and WW, I try to reach out to every, you know, organization. I even try to reach out to Olympians.

I was like, do not become part of the propaganda. they all said the same thing. They said, listen, man, what you're doing is so amazing. We love you, we support you, but we just cannot do it out loud. I asked them why. They said, well, we have shoe deals, endorsement deals, we have jersey sales. And I asked them one simple question. I was like, put yourself in their shoes.

If your mother, sister, if your daughter was on those concentration camps, get a torture and rape every day, would you still pick money and business over your morals. They usually turn around and leave the room. So, no, I started to see all my friends start to vanish. Actually, Colin Kaepernick was my good friend. Really? When this whole turkey thing happened, me and him sit down, he was actually trying to help me,

trying to give me ideas about what can I do to bring more awareness, what can I do for my family. We even have a pitcher out there together. He signed me a jersey. He used to send me gifts, like, once every couple months and stuff. the moment I started to criticize China and especially Nike, especially Nike, about the slave labor, sweatshops, about what's going on in, you know, Xinjiang area,

what they're doing and stuff. This guy stopped answering me, like, immediately. I have not heard from him since the day I started to criticize Nike. And me and him were, like, texting each other. We are, like, DMing on Twitter. We were like exchanging, you know, like ideas and stuff. And this guy immediately stopped ignoring me. And I'm like, I started to ask questions about like, what is going on?

Are we really free in this country? Because the more I studied, the more I realized, MBA is not the only one. You see Hollywood, Big Tag, Wall Street, Academias, Farmland, and Congress and local congresses are many of them controlled by this like evil empire. China. It's just so crazy to me. How like China is literally trying to invade America from the inside because they know they're not strong enough to invade America from the outside.

And all these people you just said like John Sina or what, Kaepernick or my teammates or MBA, Hollywood. Look what happened to Richard Gere. He stands up for, you know, Tibetans and he was done. So I'm like, I started to ask questions. And I'm like, this is a non-political issue. Like, it doesn't matter. You're from the right.

You from the lead. You vote for, you know, Biden, Trump. Whoever you vote for, you have to care about human rights because it's above politics. So that, when I lost so much respect for the NBA, my teammates, coaches and stuff. But I don't want to lie. A couple of them were just coming to me and saying, hey, man. they had to whisper my ear. They were saying, hey man, you know, we watch you on Fox last night and me and my family

support you. And I'm like, why are you whispering? He said, well, because you want on Fox. And I'm like, okay, so what's the problem? They said, well, you know, in an environment like MBA, you go on Fox and you say you support some people and some parties, then they are going to hate you no matter what. And I'm like, I go on there to talk about human rights. I go on CNN, I go on MSNBC, Fox, whatever.

I don't talk about politics. I never talk about, I talk about human rights. They said, well, you know, still. So at that moment, I'm like, well, this is an issue that bigger than all of us and someone have to expose this whole freaking system. And yet, you have to admit, it was Fox who invited you to the Patriot Awards. Exactly. Did CNN invite you to CNN Heroes?

Nope. Right. So I agree with you. It's not political, but I also believe that you're living in a world now where you can't afford to be naive. And I'm not saying you are. I'm saying that this happened to me, right? I mean, I run a foundation. I had a show on CNN for years. And I go on Fox all the time to promote my foundation. Just last week, I was on CNN twice and I was on Fox twice. And nothing has changed. And as my friends on the right give you. me all kinds of hell for going on CNN and my buddies on the left still can't believe I would sit down with Fox. That's never going to change. That is the question. So like, why is that? Maybe I'm formed. Maybe I'm immigrant. I don't

understand this question. I ask everybody. I'm like, why one side care about more than the other side? Why one side? And I'm not talking about oh yeah, let's, this is a political, this is non-political issue. This is human rights. We are talking about

people are getting torture and right. We are talking about political prisoners. We are talking about free Tibetans, Uyghurs, or Hong Kongers. Forget about China, but there are so many other examples out there. So why is that I have not understand it? Okay. I don't know,

but my theory goes back to the very first thing I told you in this conversation. Competition, uniforms, teams, and tribes. We've got it into our head that everything is a competition.

And we're living in this world where everything feels black or white, binary, right? Left or right. It's all very, very simple. And so this is kind of a clunky comparison. But when I listen to you describe the game when you debuted your free to bet shoes, you framed it perfectly. Big game, big night, Celtics, Knicks, different colors, rivals. different fans, everybody's watching, right? So I think what happens with Fox and CNN

is the same thing that happens with the Red Sox and the Yankees. And you're so right to call out teammates, owners, agents, endorsement deals and sponsors, but you can't leave out the fans, right? Because it trickles all the way down. And that's what I meant before when I talked about my friend up here, who agrees with me, that something terrible is happening.

But you see, and she's got courtside seats, right? I mean, and they're really great seats. And so you're fighting all the way from the top, all the way down to the bottom. And I think that, you know, if you're talking about a Knicks fan or a Fox viewer, or a Celtics fan or a CNN fan, right, we're all in our little boxes. and when a guy like you comes out and very reasonably says, hey, wait, I just had a conversation with a concentration camp survivor. And you know what they're doing over there?

They're taking probes and they're inserting them and running current. All right? So if that doesn't get your attention and if that doesn't make you go, oh, wait, well then, I don't know what will. But I love the fact that you have become a jagged little pill and a real inconvenient truth for a lot of people who would prefer to see this whole deal just through the lens of their favorite uniform. I 100% agree, man.

So, like, I just hope that, like, people can realize before it's too late because the more I, like I said, I guess study, the more I witness, the more I realize it's just, like, everyone is just trying to buy literally everyone. You know, it doesn't matter. It's Hollywood. It's MBA. It's Wall Street. It's academia.

It's big tech. farmlands, but, you know, we just have to wake up before it's too late or our kids will be speaking Chinese or it will be, I even have made a joke about, well, I was like, how deep the NBA is with China, might as well just pay the players with the Chinese currency, you know? But it's just such a shame and, yeah. Say something, if you would, too, about context and perspective because I know, look, this country has its problems. We have all kinds of challenges. You know, I know you know that, but it just seems like the real value that you bring to this is just to tap the country on the shoulder and say, look,

this is how it works everywhere else, right? Actually, it's an amazing, like, you know, a story. So I remember one day I'm sitting down in a locker with my teammates and after this whole China thing happened and we are having a conversation and I was like, they're like, well, America is this, America is that. America is terrible. America is horrible. And I'm just listening, you know. And I give him a very amazing offer. I was like, you know what? The season is about to be over. We have like a couple of months left. After the season, let me buy your tickets and let's go to the some of the countries out there. Countries like Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, I can't just go on and on, you know.

And let's see if you guys, you know, forget about saying you hate the country, can tweet and criticize the governments. You will be in jail and you whole your family will be tortured, you know. So people don't realize how good we have in this country. And like you said, we are not perfect, but we should feel lucky and blessed to be in a country like America, where we have free speech, you know, freedom of religion, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, freedom of protest, democracy, because other countries is a very difficult situation. Who are your heroes?

Just recently I started to read about Ronald Reagan. It definitely inspires me for everything he has done, what he stood for, what he was a symbol of freedom. So that definitely his life story and everything he has done, that definitely inspired me. But I'm trying to think other than that, I'm trying to think... In athletics.

Who do you admire? Yeah. I really used to watch Kobe Bryant. When I was a kid, I grew up as a Lakers fan. I'm sure Celtics fans are going to get mad, but I grew up as a Lakers fan. So I was watching Kobe Bryant all the time. So his determination, his focus,

and his drive and his love of basketball definitely took him to the next level. So he was definitely one of my heroes athletically. Where does your career stand right now? And what's your best guess for, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but what can you hope for? You know, I'm 30 years old. I could have played another five, six years in this league.

And I'm healthy. I feel good. But I don't think it's going to happen. I'm not really allowed to live America because of the bounty. even if I go to a different country, I only can stay there for three days. And after the three days, I have to move and go to another country. So Europe, European basketball is not going to happen. So it looks like basketball is over.

I grew up as a WWE fan. I just love wrestling. My favorite was Undertaker, and I actually get to meet him when I was playing for the Knicks. And I was thinking like, hey, maybe it's a different kind of crowd, and maybe I can wrestle and become a part of WWA and stuff. and I started to have conversations with them and I remember one of my friends called me from WWE they said listen

we know you want to wrestle but there's just one thing you need to know we know that you're outspoken and everything but you can talk about anything in the world but if you say anything against the Saudi Arabia you're not going to wrestle ever and I'm like Saudi Arabia what are you talking about

right she said whatever China for MBA, it's Saudi Arabia for WW. And if you say anything against it, you're not going to wrestle. And I'm like, so like this, all these organizations, all this have like some dictatorships or something that is money coming from. And if you criticize, then you will be black bull. And it was too late. I already started

criticize, you know, Saudi government and Saudi it would be a long time ago. So I was like, well, that is not going to happen. Well, so right now, I create a foundation. I just do what I do throughout my foundation. What's the foundation? It's an education foundation. So I mainly focus on obviously the kids and sport is an amazing tool to bring kids together. So I go around the world and organize basketball camps. We invite Muslims and Christians and Jewish kids to just play basketball. I even went to Israel and we organized a basketball camp and I invited like Israelis and Palestinians and they're like,

dude, this is crazy. Don't do it. They're going to fight. You know, but we had an amazing time. They did not fight. They were exchanged in social media and numbers and stuff. So I did a lot basketball camps. Obviously, I try to stand forward and try to educate the youth. So that is, yeah. When did you change your name to freedom? Good question. So I told you the story after that whole you know, when I realized in the locker, when I was in a high school, that how important the freedom is for human beings. After air, water, and food, freedom is like the most important thing that human being can have. So I was like, you know what, I want to make this for a part of me and carry it everywhere I go.

And I want everyone in the stands. I want every arena or whatever that chant freedom because that's how important. And I want all the kids out there to research about why this dude who has a bounty on his head. hey, just changes last name to freedom. So when they research and they realize the importance of freedom. So whenever I go on the streets right now, people chance freedom and people close me Mr. Freedom. I'm still trying to get used to it.

I think it's the most beautiful name that you can have. But yeah. It's a good one. I know we're pressed for time, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you this final question. And answer is honestly as you're comfortable answering. But regrets. you've paid a price brother look next to death

you've paid an economic price you've paid a personal price you have paid a colossal price for speaking up any regrets at all people keep talking about that if I have any regret because I lost my career I mean I stand up for what I believe in in Turkey

and I haven't seen my family for 10 years you know so like losing a career losing 40 to 50 million dollars It was just nothing to me compared to my family. But any regrets? Not zero. Nothing. Because I know this is bigger than myself.

This is bigger than basketball. This is bigger than NBA and this is bigger on everything I'm doing. 10, 15, 20 years from now on, all these kids will be, if I could even inspire one kid out there, if I could inspire them about get better education, you know, just stand for freedom, how good we have in this country, then I did my part. So no, I have no regrets. And, you know, what I believe in is, you know, it doesn't matter what your background is, your religion, your skin color. The most important thing in life is live your differences on the table and try to find what we have in common. Because we only have one world to live.

So we need to make this world better together. Until one of those crazy billionaire find another planet to live, this world is what we have. So like I said, we got to make this world better together. So, no, I have no regrets. That's great. jump in here, Ennis, and say, you're my favorite kind of American. You come from somewhere else and you really appreciate this country. You understand it. And as I said to you before, when I first met you, I want to say again that we have founding fathers. You are a founding son. There have been a

founding sons who keep the flame alive, the flame of freedom alive. And nobody's doing it better than you are right now. So God bless you, man. Thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate them. And I'm definitely going to use that in my next interview. The founding son. If there's anything we can ever do for you, reach out. For sure, right. Because everything you're doing, everything is a matter of looking up at the board, putting points on the board, moving the ball down the court, whatever metaphor you like, it comes down to having a conversation, spreading the word.

That's actually my only skill. You know, I can't dribble for crap, but I'm a terrible point guard. But I dig what you're screaming, brother. Keep doing it. And we sure appreciate it, man. That means a lot of me. Take care. Thank you so much.

You bet. Ennisfreedom.org. Hashtag just saying. If you like what you heard. And even if you don't. Won't you please please? Don't you please? Well, I hate you, freeze, please.