The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 323: Akash Chougule—Reguflation and the Right to Try

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

Americans For Prosperity's vice president of government affairs, Akash Chougule, discusses how CA-AB5 and Congress' Pro Act are deleterious to independent contractors and why the use of mutual benefit and bottom-up solutions work best, and Mike makes up a new word. Contact your representatives here www.prosperityispossible.com

Welcome, friends, to episode number 323 of the way I heard it. This one is called Reguflation and the Right to Try. Yes, Chuck, it's true. I went and made up a word, and God willing, we'll shoehorn it into the lexicon with a little help from this podcast. I think it's a good word, Mike. It obviously, obviously is a combination of the word regulation and the other word inflation, putting them together to form regulation, which says that these two things, combined are worse than one thing by itself.

Indeed, they are. And these two things are probably the top two enemies of Americans for Prosperity. And we'll be talking about that in the next hour or so. My guest is Akash Choghli, who's way up the food chain in this fine organization. And yes, he has some very unflattering things to say about regulation, and he is very concerned about the impact of inflation on all sorts of people. Our conversation is not really a political one. And AFP, I wouldn't describe them as a political organization. Full disclosure, they do seem to come down on the conservative side of many issues. But what they're really trying to do is get

the barriers out of the way for all kinds of people who are simply attempting to try to make a living in whatever legal way is possible. And as many of you know, we sort of dance around this topic a lot. Freelancing and individuals' right to earn an honest living as a freelancer. It's a topic that keeps coming back up because this pro act is now in Congress and making its way through those hallowed halls. And rightfully, I think, Chuck, scaring the hell out of a lot of people who are simply trying to make a living.

Nearly 70 million people, freelancer right now, being. affected by this thing? Well, they will be terribly affected if it becomes law. Right now, you know, the Pro Act is basically AB5 on steroids. And to hear Akash talk about it, he says, if it is past, it's going to be even worse than AB5 is in California. And we can't have that happen. Well, we certainly don't want it to happen. That's the reason I invited him on. But we don't jump right into it. When you have a guy like Akash Chogli with such a great personal story who, is involved in so many things that are in the headlines right now. It's impossible not to want to pick his brain on this or that, which I do. I really think you're going to like the guy. More

importantly, I invite you to check out Americans for prosperity. It's an organization that really is moving the needle. They're a part of the stand-together organization, which full disclosure, as many of you know, supports microworks. And I support them. So this is a well that we go to from time to time on the podcast because every time I go there, Chuck, I just find it gets deeper and deeper and there are more interesting people to talk to. You get a cool drink of water. It quenches the thirst of curiosity every time. Get you with the metaphors. All right, go easy on those. As for the rest of you, sit down and relax and get a load of Akash Chogh. He's got a lot of great things to say, and you'll hear them all and are completely unscripted and totally unforgettable conversation.

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That's net suite.com. NetSweet. I think I told you everything you need to know. And, well, the rest will be made evident as it occurs, I suppose. Let's do it. God, you really whip us into a frenzy like a real producer, man. The rest will be made self-evident as it occurs, I suppose. And energy, energy, energy and action.

First things first, Akash. What is the proper way to say your last name? Choghly. How many times in your life or just in the last week have you heard people mangle it? Oh, I've done more conservative talk radio than you would ever think, Mike. I've heard. Let's put it this way. I've been called worse.

What's the worst? Ooh, what's the worst? I mean, people have left out the age. They've left out the L. I take a guess. It's been said. I'm sure it has. Well, thank you for doing this.

Big fan, obviously, of AVP or AFP. AFP, right? AVP is something else, Chuck. What's that stand for? American veterinarian people? No, I just made that up. I have no idea what is. I'm not certain that's wrong.

Find folks in their own right. The challenge, Akash, with guys like you, at least for me anyway, is really just trying to determine, like, is there one thing? And as I'm sure Chuck has told you, this whole pro-act AB5 thing has been, sort of in our world in a big way. But you guys have just done so much over there at Americans for prosperity that I just assumed punt on that for a couple minutes at least to just talk more broadly about what the acronym is, how it came to be, and how a nice guy like you with an unpronounceable name wound up so high up the food chain therein. I appreciate it. The organization is now in its 19th year. It was started in 2004, but I think really came to be known in sort of

public policy circles around the probably 2008, 2009, 2010 wave. And what was happening at that time, which I think our organization was sort of right place, right time to make the best out of was a situation in which people from all walks of life, I mean, people that had never paid attention to politics before, all of a sudden were really fed up with what they were seeing in Washington. And that was not just Republicans, but independents, Democrats. They were organizing into what were being called Tea Party rallies at the time, if you remember, which was really motivated by two things. One was a concern over President Obama's health care reform and sort of the government takeover of health care. And the other one, which that was a piece of, was government

spending, right? Spending had just gotten so out of control. People were struggling at that time coming out of that 0.8, 2009 recession. And it just seemed like so much a government was wrapped around special interest bailouts. And, you know, we'll talk about labor, but organized labor giveaways and things like that. The average American is kind of left hanging out to dry. So what our organization exists to do, it's a little bit different than most of Washington, which is that, you know, while I'm based in the Washington area, the vast majority of our team is spread out across the country in field offices and state offices, district offices, in now 38 states, but we're now active in all 50 states. And what we really exist to do is educate and mobilize people to make a difference in their

government, local, state, federal level, right, regular folks. And so we provide things like what I do, right, government affairs and policy work and communications, but the real bread and butter is average Americans out there, right? That's why we're called Americans for Prosperity. And we'll get into that word prosperity, I'm sure, Mike, but it's one that I think every American connects to as far as being able to determine your own circumstances in life and to provide for your family. Well, I'm pretty down with what an American is,

and I think I understand the connector for. But you're right. Prosperity is one of those words that it gets thrown around a lot. it has a great, I have probably wrong way to say it, but it's not archaic, but there's something old-timey about it, or maybe it's just nostalgic, you know. I find myself using the word a lot now in the context of my own foundation where I typically hear myself saying, look, I still think it's possible to prosper as the result of mastering a skill that's in demand and going to work. And then every now and then, people will pull me aside and say, what do you mean, prosper?

You mean survive? You mean thrive? What do you guys mean when you talk about prosperity? I think that's a great question. The word that I think of is timeless, right? It's timeless and it's impossible to be against it. And I think the reason for that is it's obviously a positive word, but it means something different to everyone. It could mean having a stable, middle class life and providing for your two kids and having a responsible family budget and going on a couple vacations a year. Or it could mean being a millionaire, right? It just means something different to every person. And I think that's really embodied in sort of the public policy agenda that we're for, which is that every person has, you know, the desire and the ability to thrive and to prosper in this country. That's, you know, really goes back to our founding, our system of self-determination. What was unique about America, I think, which is something that I hold dear, is that America really pioneered the idea that the circumstances of your birth don't determine the

circumstances of your life. And the circumstances of your life and whatever that prosperity looks like is something that public policy exists to empower, not to inhibit, and that's what we focus on. Where's your family from, Akash? So originally from India, I was born and raised here in Rhode Island. My parents were both born in India. My mom moved around a lot. She lived in Africa.

I lived in Canada, but settled down in high school in the U.S. My dad came when he was just about my age, 27, 28 years old, and I can bore you with the details if it's interesting. But basically, first one to leave behind his family, everything and everyone he'd ever known. The way my dad tells us the story is America is just a story. an idea, right? When you grow up in a place like that, America is just kind of this abstract thing. And you hear that phrase a lot of America as an idea. But that's really what it is. And when you grow up in a, you know, a small town in India. And so he started waking up at 4 a.m. from fourth

grade onwards, you know, after losing his dad at a young age, just to study and have a chance to come to America. And he was the first one to do that. He came here with $26 in his pocket. And eventually what he ended up doing is he bought a 90-day bus pass and traveled the country by overnight bus, slept in a bus station in Cleveland one night and ultimately found his first like real job in America on the 89th day of his 90-day bus pass. And so that's kind of our family story and how we ended up here and now here I am. It's not only interesting. It's important. And it's not just important, you know, if I can speak broadly. It's like micro and macro at the same time. Those micro stories are really important to families and they get passed on.

And we all have a version of how our dad, our granddad, and so forth and so on. But there's so much benefit in sharing those stories, especially in a country like this, where so many people had the great privilege of being born here. And they just hear these tales, and I'm afraid sometimes we just sort of dismiss them as something between a fable and, you know, a personal family recollection. But they're not. They're so much bigger than that. I mean, I admire you for wanting to share it and for keeping it out there because I think it's inspirational to a lot of people who probably have absolutely nothing in common with the past that your dad lived.

And the thing is, I never really thought twice about it, Mike, to be honest, until I started working in this line of work and you kind of realize how powerful it is. But we still celebrate. My dad arrived on July 15th. And to this day, we celebrate that date as a bigger date in his life than his birthday because he always says it was the start of a new life and all this. And so it is a sort of romanticized thing. But I think what you're alluding to is, while that story is special to me, it's not unique to America, right? And whether it's an immigrant story or someone who was born and raised here, who took out a loan on their house to start a business, that really is what built this country.

It's people taking a chance and having the ability to determine their own circumstances in life. Not just a chance. It's people betting on something. And to me, the question is always, what? What are you betting on, if not yourself? Are you betting on your family? Are you betting on your government? Are you betting on your union?

Are you betting on your mom and dad? In the end, you know, it's a wager. You know, we all make those wagers. But the bet to leave India and come to America and buy a 90-day bus pass and start far as gumping your way around in the hopes of picking up a job, dude, that's a big bet for prosperity. Yeah. And the thing is, look, you know, people work hard. they get lucky, they have help from family and friends.

But I think all of that goes into what makes America what it is, right? And even if, you know, at some point, somebody else had to be on government subsistence and climb their way up or they benefited from charity or from friends and family, I think all of that is what makes America, America. And I think what we truly believe, what I truly believe is that, you know, nearly every American, call it every American wants the ability to determine their own circumstances in life, wants the dignity of earned success, of self-actualization. And it's a matter of whether our society, our government, our policies, our economy are empowering them and giving them the ability and the skills to do so.

How much time, and it's a very broad question, but how much time do you spend magnifying the virtues of everything you just said versus trying to get the obstacles to prosperity out of the way? In other words, are you playing offense or defense with regard to prosperity? Yeah, great question. And frankly, I think there's probably an imbalance there and how it should be. I think just by nature of my job and our organization, we spend a lot of time on policy barriers. Now, our organization is part of a broader network called the Stand Together community. And there's a number of other organizations and people who kind of work on that personal empowerment piece, right, providing people with skills and opportunities and connecting employers to job seekers. And so my colleagues are involved in all of that. I think I personally, you know, I would say I spend a lot of time on policy barriers. But I think the thing I could do more of, which I try to do is, it's kind of what you were alluding to, Mike, is just that appreciation for what our system is, what our founders set up and what that has created and allowed in this country. I think it's kind of easy to forget that on a day-to-day basis. And I think especially for people that agree with my premise, right, they come from a more limited government, free market, sort of pro-capitalism standpoint. They're too often focused on

what's wrong and what the problems are. I mean, I always say, right, I'm a conservative, but I'm not angry about it. You know, politicians have used that line for a long time. And we need to understand why that's the case, right? Because our system has empowered, you know, hundreds of millions of people, billions of people across the world to leave poverty and, you know, create better lives for themselves. I think that broader context is something that's always important to remember. Since you used the C word, let me just say that early on, the first time I heard of Americans for prosperity, I don't know why. I suppose it was artifacts or just little things in my head that made me immediately think, okay, this is a conservative organization that's wrapped up

in Republican causes and is therefore probably going to immediately piss off half the country. But after I met Charles and after I became part of Stand Together, I took another look at it. And I was really surprised by the number of times you guys took an affirmative stand for a Democrat, for an issue that was really not at all clearly to the right of center. In fact, I remember there was a guy, I want to say his name was Matt. Was it Matt Bellina? Does that ring any bells? Maybe.

He had, if it wasn't ALS, it was something equally as horrible. And you guys got behind an attempt to get the right to try act past. because this guy was dying. Veteran, heartbreaking story, not given long to live at all. And they just wouldn't let him take the experimental drugs that might have saved him. Anyway, he's still alive today. This was years ago. You guys saved one dude's life by getting rid of a law that just seems so affirmatively stupid.

I couldn't believe it. And that's where I think the hearts and minds are today, one person at a time. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. that issue is very powerful. And the law in my homestead of Rhode Island is actually named after a kid from my high school ended up passing away in a similar situation where he wasn't able to try, you know, what are called sort of phase one drugs. They've made it through that first phase of like safety testing at the FDA. But then, you know, the belief behind right to try was, oh, exactly we're talking about individual empowerment, individuals should be able to make their own

decisions. You shouldn't have this sort of, you know, even a well-intentioned like nanny state government that's looking out for your best interest but ends up being harmful so often. because these regulatory barriers and processes and permissions end up getting in the way. Now, that was one in the health care field. We've worked on it in criminal justice, and energy regulation and labor regulation, which we'll talk about. And so the principle really spans across the set of issues that we work on. And I think that's why you're seeing more and more bipartisan appeal. Like, yes, two certain issues align with one party more than the other.

But at the end of the day, the principle of individual empowerment, freedom, free markets, is something that isn't attached to any one party or politician. I couldn't have cared less what the acronym was that came to this guy's defense because the bottom line was Matt Matt had the right to go to a foreign land and risk his life for my behalf, which he exercised. He had the right to go to any number of states and any number of countries around the world to take his life, to take his own life legally. He had the right to do that, but he didn't have the right to try and live with a drug that hadn't been fully vetted. And yeah, it's just moments and situations and circumstances like that that I think cut through so much of the clutter that's out there. I mean, are there other issues before we dive into the main topic that you've seen that unite people to that degree and bring people together?

I mean, for the life of me, I never found anyone who was opposed to giving Matt Belina the right to try to live. No one. Didn't matter how they voted. No, absolutely. There's a couple that come to mind, some that I work. on some that I don't, but education is one, right? Education reform, this concept of school choice, right? I think it used to be kind of a partisan issue. It's ebbed and flowed a little bit, but the basic principle is that you should not be forced to attend the public school based on where you live,

based on your zip code. Your parents pay property taxes to fund schools. Your family should be able to use those dollars that you spend on education for the education that best suits your needs. Now, whether that's homeschooling or it's private school or it's public school or it's some combination thereof. That idea has really made a ton of progress in recent years. And increasingly, they're Democrats and Republicans alike. Reason being that too often the kids that are stuck in failing schools are those in inner city school systems, people who are represented by Democrats a lot of the time. And you do have some Democrats who see what's going on in the school systems and want better for their own constituents. And so that's one that I point to, justice reform,

both a pro-immigration country, but one where the border is secure or something that has bipartisan appeal. And so there are more and more opportunities, I think, the harder you look. They're just not the ones you see on TV every night when you turn on cable news. Boy, that's true, right? Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Roe gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding and well-established commitment issues,

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supports our veterans in a meaningful way, as well as the MicroWorks Foundation, and allows me to exploit my own mother. in a national advertising campaign. Do what my mom did. Get yourself unlimited high-speed data for just 3499 a month at puretalk.com slash row. You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure talk. I mean, I saw a clip the other day. I'm thinking now of the current drama around the debt ceiling. And what appears to be a complete

intractability on both sides. Well, to be fair, on one side. But there's Barack Obama. It must have been 11 years ago saying, look, we're not going to do this. We're not going to do this without compromising. It's impossible. It won't work. We will default. And I don't know what the situation will be when this conversation drops. But as of today, in real time, what is it, 1117 on May 22nd, I'm being told that, no, there is no compromise. We're not going to budge on this thing. I mean, what can you say to that? Since you brought up spending, you know, the first minute in, what's going to happen with this thing?

This might come as a surprise to somebody whose job is reforming government, but as somebody who worked in Congress, a lot of that is posturing, right? And so you had the White House press secretary come out and say, President Biden's not negotiating, he's never negotiating. As she is saying that, his team is actively negotiating with congressional Republicans behind closed doors. I saw that a lot in Congress. And so, you know, again, we'll talk about labor issues. Those are pretty divisive issues, but the most divisive issues appear to be most divisive

when the cameras are rolling, right? Behind the scenes, people are actively negotiating. There's relationships being built. You know, there's relationships that have formed years ago that make for more constructive dialogue. And so there are, you know, not to say that there aren't disagreements, there are real fundamental disagreements of ideology and public policy. But to say that there won't be an agreement reached and is it going to get ugly

before then? Yes, absolutely. but I'm cautiously optimistic that what we see on TV and that kind of public posturing versus the progress being made behind closed doors eventually meets its match like it will. This time, like it did in 2011, like it does with these government shutdown fights that we have from time to time. And I don't think this time will be different. What do you guys think about a line, like a trillion dollar line? Where are we now? 30 trillion? Is it 35? Is it 40? Is it 50?

Like, at what point will both sides in your estimation go, yeah, yeah, 50 trillion's a little rich. Let's go ahead and step back from that. Does that place exist? So it doesn't by choice, but it will by necessity. And here's why. And this is where I think, you know, you mentioned places where we bring both parties together. There are places where we make both parties uncomfortable by the sheer force of data, numbers. And I think federal spending is one. Both parties spend too much. President Biden's been bad. President. President Trump was bad, President Obama was bad, President Bush was bad on spending. Congress and control of both parties has been the same. Here's where the inflection point will come, Mike, which is nobody wants to acknowledge that the biggest drivers of our federal spending aren't these little nickel and dime programs, right? It's not foreign aid or it's not, you know, this program here, that program there. Two-thirds of all federal spending is eaten up in something like five programs. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Obamacare, and then our debt interest payments, right? Those are what's called mandatory spending, which means they're not negotiated

year to year. Now, where the inflection point is going to come is you hear everyone saying, don't touch my benefits, don't touch my benefits. Obama, or sorry, Trump said it, Biden said it. But baked into current law is an 23% cut to benefits. Right now, within the next 10 years, we won't be able to pay our obligations. And so people who rely on these programs, under current law, we'll see a massive cut to their benefits. In order to prevent that from happening, Congress and the President will have to step in and do something. That will involve some combination of programmatic reforms, revenue reforms, spending reforms, all these other things. And so whether they want to address spending or not, they will have to at some point in the next decade. Because this is a clear and present and existential threat to prosperity, however you define it. Yeah, absolutely. And here's why. This is what people don't understand. I think they don't like the idea of paying taxes and government spending too much. But government doesn't create wealth. Right. Every dollar.

that the government spends is a dollar being taken away from the private sector, right? And what the private sector would do with that dollar is invests it, right? And by private sector investment is how you create productivity. Productivity is how you create jobs and raise wages. The more government spends, the less money there is available for that. And so while government does some good things, right, it helps people and there's programs that people rely on, things we need to do like our national defense, we want to try to minimize that to the extent possible so that we can empower the private sector, that balance is completely out of whack, and it has already started to have economic costs, and those costs will only exacerbate as a problem gets worse.

And isn't it just becoming screamingly relevant that while your past doesn't equal your future, to your earlier point, your past matters so much as to how you respond to what you just said. If, for instance, you're a person who grew up surrounded by the kinds of spending entitlements you've just described, then you're going to bring a certain set of assumptions to whatever's being sold. If you're a guy like your dad, what was his name, by the way? Prokosh. Perkosh. If you're Perkosh, who came over and said, yeah, you know what? There's been nothing promised. A 90-day bus pass. Let's see what we can do out there. It just seems so clear to me that if you

come to the argument with that kind of perspective, then everything falls into place. or at least the dominoes fall in a direction that's awfully different. I mean, why is it such a hard sell? What do we have to do to get people suitably exercised about trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars of money? That, I mean, how soon before the interest payment on that surpasses the defense budget? Yeah, we're there.

We're very close. And I'd make two points. One is a bigger one, which is that people want an opportunity society, and I firmly believe that that includes the vast majority of people who are currently on government subsistence and on welfare programs and depending on things like Medicaid, it's not for not wanting to be independent, right? I think a lot of times people end up falling into like this poverty trap, right, where these programs are designed, not intentionally necessarily, but they're designed in such a way that people are actually better off financially

staying on these programs than they are working that additional hour or getting that raise or getting that degree to earn more because then you start having what are these, you know, these marginal costs, if you will, right? Your benefits go down faster than your wages are going up. And so some of these reforms, we're spending a trillion dollars on welfare programs that are just so poorly designed. They're actually holding people back in a lot of ways, right? Whether it's housing vouchers or it's Medicaid or it's food stamps, we're spending all

this money. It's not meeting people's needs in the way that they want. And it's not empowering them to climb the socioeconomic ladder. And so that's a point I would make sort of independent of the spending. As it pertains to the spending itself, I think we came as close as we have, at least in my lifetime, over the last two years, with this inflation crisis, right? Last year when, you know, gas was $5 a gallon, store shelves were empty, we had, you know, millions of open jobs, people couldn't find groceries, costs were skyrocketing. The hand of overspending touched people so directly that I think it created a backlash that is not one that we see, you know, more than once in a generation. Where would you rank inflation as an obstacle to prosperity?

I would say number one or number two. And what it competes with is regulation. Regulation and creates inflation. I shouldn't really separate the two, but we're talking about how spending creates inflation and drives up prices. The other thing that does that in such a way that people never see it, but they feel it, is regulation. All these rules and restrictions and requirements that government at every level puts

not just on products you buy and you build, but puts it on, goods, services, on, you know, medical care, on housing, what have you, adds up costs and drives inflation. And I think that hurts people on lower incomes and fixed incomes most, which is the unfortunate part. This is the part where we introduce the term regiflation into the lexicon. You're welcome, America. It wouldn't have happened without a kosh. All right, that's kind of the perfect way to pivot into the reason I really wanted to dig in here. From where I sit, it's the cookie-cutter advice that's killing us on almost every front. The idea that the best path for the most people regarding an education happens to be the most expensive path, right?

It's just murderous. The idea that the best way to work for most people is a way that involves an employer, a 40-hour work week, a union perhaps, that the pressure to push so many people into this one well-worn path is amazing. And I always loved the freelancing option. To me, it was just always the embodiment, the epitome of eating what you kill and being able to set your own hours and set so many things in your life.

Anyhow, all of that is clearly under assault with the Pro Act, with AB5. So if you would just sort of maybe think of yourself as a provider of a person, for people who just haven't heard of this. Just put it in a nutshell for me and explain what's happened. Yeah. So like almost all bad public policy ideas, this one started in California as well back in 2018 with a California Supreme Court decision. And the question basically pertains around who is an employee versus who is an independent contractor. Now, people who are independent contractors

generally like that status. They like that freelance status. The federal government has actually surveyed this and it's well over 70% like that status, but you have some advocates for that traditional employee status, chief among them are labor unions. Reason being that independent contractors cannot be unionized. Only traditional employees can be unionized. And so in 2018, the California Supreme Court put down a ruling in a case called Dynamics, which is just the name of the company who had the issue at stake. What that Supreme Court decision did is it laid down three factors to determine who was an employee. What AB5 is that you're talking about, put those three factors into law. And we'll get into what the harmful effects were. But basically,

there's three things. It's called the ABC test. The first is, in order to be an independent contractor, are you free from control? Now, that's a pretty common sense one. That's actually what used to be the common law to determine independent contractor. So the A part is non-controversial. Part B is, are you hired to provide a service that is outside the normal course of business? Now, that's a bunch of hodgepodge words. And let me give an example of why that's unworkable. right? You'll say a retail store. You would think the usual course of business for a retail store is to sell stuff, right? What if that retail store is also involved in its own supply chains? Is a truck driver who works as a truck driver on those supply chains? Is he involved in the usual course of

business for that retail store? So that's part B and then part C is this is where it gets real word salad. Are you customarily engaged in an independently established trade of the same nature of the work being done. Now, what that means, basically, you know, have you established a line of work? Let's say that truck driver or that plumber who works for that retail store, let's say he's actually retired

and he's just doing some handyman jobs around the store in his spare time. Is he customarily established in an independently established trade because he just does this in his spare time? And so these are all, they seem like silly questions, but they're vague and they're unworkable.

They were never defined in the law, never defined in the Supreme Court decision. And what has ended up happening is they passed AB5 in California. And it was a disaster. It a disaster for the trucking industry, disaster in the music industry, the journalism industry, all these places that have a lot of freelance independent workers who didn't know if they were caught under the law. Some of them feared their livelihoods were disappearing. The state of California passed over 100 exemptions to the law.

And so clearly it was a great idea if it needed that many exemptions. The federal level, the pro act, Mike, not only doesn't have any exemptions. If you're a company, if you're a business and you misclassify somebody as an independent contractor, you're subject to fines as much as $100,000. Think of your mom and pop shop who could be subject to that. And so, you know, that's a long form way of saying. It completely throws up in the air the distinction between an independent worker and an employee favoring the side of being an employee. So the Pro Act, which is in Congress and national in scope, is really far worse than AB5 in

California, because there are no exemptions, make sure people understand that. So like if you're DoorDash, for instance, if you're a big company with a lot of independent workers, you got a lobbyist, you got a lobbyist, you got money, you get in there, and they carve it out for you. And that looks like a win. I remember reading about it, my friends who were still getting killed, writers in particular, and some welders that were traveling all over the country, you know, freelancing in construction. They're like, no, you shouldn't be celebrating. this is a win because the problem is still underlying. All DoorDash did, and I hope I'm getting the right example, but these big companies, all they did was carve out a safe space for themselves. The rest of us are

still taking it in the neck. Prior to this role, I was working in Congress on the Education Labor Committee handling this issue. The number of industry reps, you know, this is their job, so I don't fault them for it, but financial services, ride sharing, you name it. Every industry came asking for a carve-out. And again, they're paid to do one thing, represent one industry. But at the end of the day, everyone else is still left hanging out to dry.

And the Pro Act is worse than AB-5, not just because there are no exemptions and there are penalties. There's also 25 other provisions in the Pro Act, Mike, that are, you know, frankly, we, you know, we could not cover all of them in an hour. But as far as tilting that playing field, against the independent worker in favor of big labor,

organized labor, it's sort of an amalgamation of every bad idea in that area over the last 50 years jammed into one piece of legislation. How did it get this far? I mean, is it the frog in the boiling water? I mean, how did we get to the place? I'm looking at this chart, you guys put out. And just so people know, 36 of American workers freelance, 36%.

Truck drivers, writers, yoga, fitness instructors, artists, designers, construction workers, barbers, beauticians, healthcare workers, even real estate agents. right? They're all freelancing. 30% of those freelancers chose to leave a full-time job for the express purpose of being able to work independently. Three and four would like to remain independent. We're not talking about a couple of random writers engaged in a strike or a couple of barbers here and there. We're talking about 59 million Americans currently choosing to set their own schedule and be their own boss. These people need to understand that the rug is about to be yanked out from under them. What will it mean for them, and I know I'm asking you to generalize, but I don't know how else to ask it, what can you say to get people like that who are listening exercised enough

to go to a website or pick up a phone or do something? I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent meat company

that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises to deliver high-quality American-grown meat for a fair price. Today, that promise. And Ben's absolute determination to keep it has not only propelled good ranchers into the top tier of meat delivery companies, it's fueled enormous awareness among meat eaters like me, that we have all been affirmatively deceived by policies that allow imported meat to be marketed as domestic. That's the reason I switched to.

Good Ranchers. If I'm being honest, though, I doubt that I would have stayed this long had the quality not been so exceptional. Every single cut I've devoured from Good Ranchers has been straight up delicious, and every morsel was raised on a small American farm or ranch. Give them a try. Subscriptions are affordable and flexible. In fact, if you start your plan today, you'll get free meat for life and $40 off your first order. Just use Code Mike at Good Ranch. Notchers.com. Free meat for life, 40 bucks off your first order. Good ranchers.com. American meat delivered. If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers now. Yeah. So that number is actually north of 70 million now. Just, you know, basically since the pandemic started, it's more than 70 million Americans work as independent contractors. If the pro act becomes federal law, which President Biden has said,

he would sign this into law of Congress passed it. If the Pro Act becomes law, everything you love about independent status ceases to exist, and basically two things could happen. One, your job entirely disappears because a business simply cannot afford to bring you on as a full-time employee with wages, benefits, etc. So they cease to hire you. Or they hire you and the flexibility, the freedom, the entrepreneurial opportunity that you liked to work for different people, to set your own schedule, set your own wage rates,

completely disappears and you become an employee, a cog in the wheel, which, again, works for some people, but three and four freelance workers like this independent status. And I'll make one more key point. Here, Mike, we've now talked about this in two different places. The Pro Act is federal, you know, at the federal level, AB5 was a state level bill. So this can happen at both the state and the federal level. So if you're an independent contractor or a freelance worker listening to this, you know, those people know who they are based on their tax status, it would behoove you to find out if this is happening in your state. And it's not just a matter of not doing the wrong thing. States can proactively protect independent contract status by codifying that sort of common law test,

the common sense test, as I like to call it, for freelancing. That's what we're engaged in our campaign at Prosperityis possible.com is where people can learn more about that and get engaged in making sure that their livelihood is protected. I have a question. We're speaking a lot in generalities in terms of like, you know, this, you've explained what the Pro Act would do if it gets enacted, what AB5 is doing. Are there specific examples that you have of people that you've worked with, probably in California, who have been adversely affected by AB5? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so at Prosperitiespossible.com, you can see some of these stories. We've told some of these stories, but there are really two groups of people, one story in particular,

that we told, a guy that worked at a dance studio, who's a dance instructor. I have no clue what the rest of this guy's politics are, like he could disagree with us on 99% of issues, but he rented out time at a dance studio to teach dance classes, right, as a freelancer. And so he's paying for the time at the studio. People are paying him for those dance lessons. AB5 gets passed. He immediately is under threat of becoming subject to becoming an employee of that dance studio. Immediately he's no longer an entrepreneur, right? Overnight, that person is no longer an entrepreneur, you know, if his industry remains subject to the law. Truck driving is another one that we've talked about. I know you interviewed Tom a few

weeks back, Mike. Had he stuck through it in California, exact same thing. Without the exemptions, independent truck drivers like Tom told us about, they love the independence that they get to choose their own routes, their own timing, their own schedule. And you immediately become an employee of the trucking company. That had two impacts, Chuck. One, obviously, there are bad impacts on the truck drivers themselves. The second, California is a major supply chain. How about all those ports and the shipping and things that come from California through California, all of that is thrown up in the air overnight. So the impacts are not just personal to the people impacted by it directly, but downstream through all the industries that are impacted as well.

Do you find in general you're more persuasive and more effective when you're using data and reminding people, for instance, that every single thing in their home, regardless of where they live, was either on a truck or a train? Or is it a moral argument? You know, I mean, I remember that conversation with Tom, Chuck and I were like, you know, what do you want to call this episode? And ultimately, I think we went with, you know, it's a lifestyle. Because Tom's whole point was really a very personal. I mean, we talked a lot about money and we talked a lot about how the business was going to unravel around him if he stayed. But I was struck by sunsets and sunrises and the ability to just set your own schedule.

It really is personal, and it's just a moral dilemma, it seems. So how do you guys decide which one to lean into and when? Yeah, I think it depends on the issue. To me, this one, it's a moral question. It's a common sense question. It's a moral question, right? This, again, we keep talking about it, that prosperity is possible, this idea of opportunity in America.

This just gets to it so directly. And it really just embodies the concept of self-actualization, self-determination in this country that I don't think the numbers frankly matter that much, whether it's 70 million independent contractors or it's 20 million or the economic impacts or 100 billion or 3 billion, people's livelihoods are being stripped away by political special interests. And for lawmakers to hear those stories, I think is the most powerful thing that they can do. I think the most powerful thing anyone listening to this can do is to tell your story. We're giving them the ability to do that at Prosperityis possible.com.

You can not only learn about this issue, contact your lawmaker, but you can tell your story. If you're an independent contractor who likes it, tell that story. I think that's the most powerful thing that can move anybody. I think on this issue in particular, because it so directly impacts people's livelihoods. So Akash, we can go to ProsperityisPossible.com and lobby our congressperson right there. Is that correct? With one click of a button, you can send the letter to your member of Congress in the House of Representatives, both of your senators, and it also will give you an option to tell your story.

Now, we're collecting those stories. we've turned some of them into videos. You know, there are journalists who are constantly looking for them. Our allies in this industry are constantly looking to tell stories. Because to your question, Mike, they are very, very powerful. If you're not completely beholden to political special interests, if you're still willing to listen to your constituents, listen to real stories, real human interest, those are important and powerful.

Here's what I worry about vis-a-vis this exact conversation we're having right now. I don't want employees. I don't even want die-hard. union people to listen to this and think that somehow they're not involved or that they can't be a part of correcting this. I mean, there are a lot of employees who don't see themselves as either subordinate or completely reliant on their paycheck. They live by their own terms and so forth and so on. But as a moral issue, you don't have to be a freelancer to want to take a principled stand around this conversation. So if you're listening to this and comfortable with your

W-2 and loving your boss and really chummy with your shop steward, that's all well and good. But, you know, imagine everything were reversed. Imagine if in some weird alternative universe, the employees were being essentially targeted like this. And some great powerful force was at work to destroy the relationship between an employer and an employee. It would be no less devastating. Yeah, but don't get me wrong, the Pro Act does plenty of that too, right? When you start getting into the union organizing process for employees and things like that and how it's, you know, all these demands on employees and forcing them to turn over their

information and subjecting them to harassment and intimidation by union organizers and all this stuff, all of that stuff exists. And that's absolutely right. And to be perfectly clear, that is not a slate against traditional employment or against labor unions. I'm a traditional employee. I got a W-2, and I like the stability that it creates for my family. Labor unions do great things for workers in certain industries.

They provide representation and things like that. But if you're an employee and you don't want to be in a union, you like having that direct line of communication to your employer, then a union gets in the way of doing that. And a law that tilts the playing field in favor of unions is not something that's going to be in your best interest. That's even more so the case for a freelancer, for an independent contractor. not only do you not want to be in a union, you don't want to be in a traditional employment situation. You like independent contracting, the Pro Act would get rid of all of that.

And I think I would just make one final point, Mike, which is that public policy is very easy to dehumanize, right? People that work in Congress, work in Washington, you're constantly surrounded by words and laws and policies and numbers and, you know, legal language and things like that. There are real people who are impacted by this. Now, would there be people who are positively impacted by the Pro Act? Yes, maybe. Is that the vast majority of Americans? I firmly believe the answer to that question is no. And that's why I keep going back to this being special interest-driven.

Organized labor union membership is at an all-time low, right? 10% something like that. Just the other day, I think maybe earlier this week, there was a survey done. People's satisfaction with their jobs is at nearly an all-time high. Nearly two-thirds of Americans are satisfied with their work situation. And independent contractors in particular, like we talked about, nearly 80% are satisfied with being independent contractors. And so people are largely fine, not to say that the economy is perfect, but they're largely

fine with the way things are in their work situation. The Pro Act and AB5, things like that, turn that upside down on its head to benefit one particular special interest group. Chuck's heard me say this a thousand times, but I'm going to say it again because it seems like it always starts. the divide always starts as a result of how you set the table. And what you said about five minutes ago is so important. You said that at AFP, we basically believe prosperity is still possible.

Therefore, and you went on to make a couple of very salient points. But what if you don't believe prosperity is still possible? What if you genuinely believe that opportunity is dead in these United States? Well, I think a lot of people, unfortunately, really do believe that. They don't have your Pops experience. They didn't spend 89 days on a bus looking for and eventually finding the opportunity. So they just don't know. And they've been told over and over again and again by people they love and trust, respect,

and admire that opportunity is dead. So if you come to the conversation completely reliant and believe, believing that, then it's very easy to see the worker as a victim. And once you see the worker as a victim, isn't the table then set in the complete opposite way, whereby there's no hope? How can you possibly prosper if opportunity is dead? That's the short version of my question. Yeah. And I think that we see every American not as liabilities to be managed, but assets to be developed and pursued and to have their dreams built up. And I think you speak to such an important question that I think, has really been amplified the last few years, right? People in in Rust Belt communities where

manufacturing jobs have disappeared or, you know, companies have closed up. I think they have very legitimate gripes with the status quo, with the way the economy has worked for their family and their community. You have every right to be upset about things. Here's where I think they're misled a lot by frankly people in both parties, Mike. That is that government solves their problem by taking more control over the economy. A politician can run for office and say, I'm going to pass this law and this restriction, this tax, this requirement, and it's going to bring this factory back from wherever, or it's going to make this company set up jobs in your community, and they're going to be good paying union jobs because I said so, because this law says you have to do that.

That is almost never the case. And if it is, there are many more costs associated with that than there are benefits. More likely than not, the vast, vast majority of the time, the thing that is inhibiting job growth, inhibiting wage growth, inhibiting opportunity are government barriers. And I'll give you, you know, we talked about this labor rule, right? This labor rule is inhibiting freelance job opportunities. We talked about regulations on, you know, on the energy industry, on the whatever the case might be, the auto industry. Pick an industry. There are regulations that are making it more expensive, more difficult, more confusing to do business in this country that inhibits the ability of entrepreneurs to create jobs, create opportunity. So they take their jobs and they go somewhere else. Now that might mean leaving California going to Texas. That might mean leaving the United States entirely.

You talk about taxes. We've talked about how spending takes, government spending takes money out of the economy. Even really minute things, right, occupational licensing. I know an issue that you've worked on a lot. These random barriers that government creates, it's death by a thousand cuts. There's no one fell swoop solution. No one law that can be passed. It's going to bring every job back to Northeast Ohio.

But over time, bad public policy after bad public policy has made it increasingly difficult to do business in this country. That's what we have to reverse. That's going to create the situation in which every. American is empowered to pursue their American dream in an economy that works for everyone. It's why I'll go back to the micro macro thing. There are no small arguments here. If you're Matt fighting for your life for the right to try, you're one guy, but the issue is enormous. If you're wrestling with compliance and with credentialing, I think, is probably the word.

A lot of people kind of glaze over these stories of like the hair braiders down south, you know, Women, by and large, in the black community, who had an opportunity to make $40, $60,000 a year braiding hair, but simply couldn't do it unless they paid $20,000 for a credential to braid hair. So... Not even to braid hair. It's a cosmetology thing. It required them to learn things that had nothing to do with the service they were going to provide. Right.

Right. And so I know that those are the kinds of obstacles you guys identify. I just want to make the point that they're not small. They might feel small when you compare it to, okay, let's get the pro act, this giant national thing shut down. That's a big swing. But the small ones, they're so relatable to so many people, Akash. I hope you keep on them. No, we can do both, right?

We can go after the hair braiding restrictions and the restrictions on, you know, Louisiana has a restriction on interior design, right? You know, license to be an interior design in Louisiana. We can go after these single industry. Are you kidding? Interior design. It's insane. What we're working on is not just these small barriers, but across the board, we've been actually very successful.

This is another issue that crosses party lines, Mike, the way that every industry, state law, the way that you license and regulate industries, redo the entire system of doing that, right? Tons of states have done this by now so that we don't have to nitpick one industry after another. Redo the entire way you do occupational license. in your state, not a part as an issue, not a hot button issue, but one that can make a huge difference and really embody the idea that prosperity is possible for every American. I think the reason all of this matters so much is that people are starved for justice. There's another word. It means different things, different people, and I'm not sure how

I feel about putting words in front of justice. That sometimes gets a little squishy. But when we see a bad law corrected, when we see what feels like a minor injustice corrected. I mean, it just makes you feel so good. You know, you pick up the phone and you call your friends, and it becomes a story that you can tell. So how can people help your efforts more broadly? How can we get more stories told? More podcasters going there. More TV producers, more movies being made. What are you guys doing in that space of advocacy to preach somehow beyond the choir. Yeah, I mean, we're one small part of it, right? We're a large organization, but our ability to tell stories and power people,

bring people to their lawmakers and have them tell their story. That's one piece of the puzzle, right? And we try to do that every day with our activists and our volunteers and our presence and communities all across this country is bring people to the sources of power in their state capital or even to Washington, flying people to Washington, to tell their story to their lawmakers. but that's just one piece of it, right? You touched on this, you know, pop culture and podcasters

and all these other things. I really think it just gets to this idea of personal empowerment, self-actualization, the dignity of earned success, that being something that every American wants and the question being, what is it that we need to do to empower that? And that's when you start getting to some of the more specifics around public policy. How does labor policy impact the availability of opportunity and social mobility? How do regulations and energy policy and tax policy and all these other things that can seem so arcane and so in the weeds, but ultimately get at the question you alluded to that I think a lot of people have lost faith in, which is what kind of country are we going to be?

Are we going to be a country where the circumstances of your birth don't determine the circumstances of your life? In order for that to be the case, government has to empower the private sector, empower individuals, empower employers, empower every American to pursue their own American dream. That by and large involves public policy getting out of the way to do less, rather than doing more and inhibiting that opportunity. Are we going to be the kind of country that allows and even encourages a person to get a 90-day bus pass and get out there into the world to see what they can shake loose on their own? Or are we going to say, no, no, no, that could lead to sadness and disappointment.

That could lead to failure. Not even going to let you try, you know? I mean, the right to try is such a, I mean, I know that in your organization it, defaults to a medical conversation, but it just seems so much broader than that. That's what we're talking about really in every possible way, the right to try, to try to work the way I want to work, to eat the way I want to eat, to exercise the way I want, to live the way I want. I mean, it's only everything, right? No, that's exactly right. And the way our economy really functions at the end of the day is what we like to call mutual benefit, right? You don't get ahead

by rigging the system or stealing from people, a long-term sustainable way of making your life better is to provide something to somebody else that is of value, right? The system of mutual benefit. The other word for it is the C word capitalism, right? Is that you only get ahead by serving others is something that, again, is very unique to our country. It's the thing that for generation after generation has kept hundreds of millions of people wanting to come here, right, with next to nothing.

You know, my dad came. People float on rafts made out of milk cartons through shark-infested waters to get to Miami to have a chance to do the same thing, not because they're guaranteed something from a labor union or some government handout or some program, but to have the chance to build a better life for themselves, government too often gets in the way of that by making things more expensive, more difficult to achieve on your own or to empower somebody else to create those opportunities for people. That's what we work on. That's what this whole prosperity is possible campaign that we launched. It's, you know, an eight-figure campaign all across the country. It's telling those stories,

walking through those policies, walking through all the ways that government, good or bad, can make a difference in the ability of people to build a better life for themselves. Because frankly, the way things have been the last few years, we've been in this malaise. And I think people need to be told, frankly, that it does not have to be like that, that a better way is possible. And shown, you know, told and shown. That's the thing for me, Akash. It's so easy, especially when there's a microphone in front of my face.

And I know that I got, you know, six million people on a Facebook page who might be inclined to listen. I want to tell them. You know, I want to tell them how I feel, and I want to tell them what they should do, and it's in us all. I just don't know that that's persuasive anymore. We have to show them. I mean, like, literally show them. And I just hope that that's part of what comes out of all this.

I know what I wanted to say to you. The thing about stand together, the thing that stuck with me, after I really dug in, and it's super relevant here, is not just the mutual benefit that you come back to, but it's the bottom-up solution. And once you tell your brain to, like, look for something, it tends to find it. And finding bottom-up solutions is really fun. And part of the reason I got such a be in my bonnet over the pro thing,

the pro act, is because it's so clearly a top-down solution. So if you could just riff on that for a minute so people really understand the difference. Yeah. It's a phrase. I want to make sure people understand what that actually means. What a bottom-up solution is, it's one that you come up with, your neighbors come up with, your community comes up with, somebody comes up with a solution in an organic manner to solve a problem that people are facing. It could be non-profit, for-profit, it could be a small thing. It could be a huge thing. We've got people, you know, everyday life, people come into contact with folks who started a small business. They do one thing that people need and then stand together as partnering with people who are creating bottom-up solutions to the nation's housing crisis, right? It doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. doesn't get any bigger than solving the nation's housing crisis, right? So problems of all shapes and sizes are best solved from the bottom up in an organic manner where people are able to, you know, keep the fruits of their labor, reap the rewards for what they do, are able to work together and collaborate rather than having things imposed on them from top down. There is simply

no problem, I think, in this country. There's no problem that will be best solved by bureaucrats in marble hall buildings in Washington, D.C., 800 miles away from where the problem is taking. place. That is, I think, a blanket statement I can make that is universally true about the problems we face in this country. And it's not to say that there's no place for marble halls, elected officials, and people who, on our behalf, are gathering together to try and bring some uniformity to the otherwise and hopefully logical approach that we're all going to take. But if we defer that, if we just set back and say, okay, well, you guys tell us what to do, well, then we're going to have the kind of spending gridlock that we have right now. We're going to have the lack of school choice

that we have right now. I mean, it kills me, man, because a couple years ago, you know, I did 100 episodes of a show called Returning the Favor. And had I done them after this conversation, I would have pitched it to Facebook in a totally different way. I would have just said, look, this is a love letter to bottom up solutions. This is a love letter to people you've never heard of in towns you probably haven't been to who wake up, agitated and pissed off. that things could be better in their own zip code and then do something about it. And so, you know, I guess maybe one of the last things I want to talk to you about is just the trap of, because that's what AFP is, it seems to me.

But you're also getting big, right? Do you worry that there can be a kind of ironic top-down infection that could have an impact on what you guys are trying to do? Always. It's something we're always wary of. But I think we go back to what is our strength, right? There's a million organizations in Washington that work on public policy and have IDL. And a lot of them agree with us, right? But nobody else does what we do, which exists on the ground level, at the local level in cities and towns all across this country to empower average Americans who don't do this for a job, right?

Volunteers that show up with us on a Saturday morning to knock doors or make phone calls. People who show up to their state capital when an issue like, you know, this AB5 thing comes to their state and make. their voice heard, whether they're a freelancer or not. That's a very unique model that AFP serves. And I think when you get beyond that to what Stand Together does outside of the public policy realm, the same is true, right? Stand together doesn't fly in from Washington and say, hey, this is the best way to create a workforce development program in your city or town. We don't have all the answers. What we know is that people closest to the problem are most likely to have the answers. What we want to do is facilitate the partnerships, add in the resources, empower people to solve problems on the ground,

a way that they might not otherwise be able to do without what we're able to offer them. How did you get here? I mean, I get the story of your dad. I get the story of first generation and stuff. But how did you wind up with AFP? And why do you give a damn? Yeah, I think, I mean, it really does go back to my dad as far as why I give a damn, right? This idea of America is something that is very real to me. It's not an abstract idea. It is a function of our economy, of our public policy. That's kind of how I started paying attention. to all this and how I was drawn not just frankly to economics, but really, frankly, local and even state-level public policy because they have such a direct impact. And so, you know,

I was public school-educated in Rhode Island. I studied political science in college. I started working at the state level, my home state of Rhode Island, which is kind of a basket case, right? I mean, I saw every day when it came to teacher strikes or it came to taxes or right when I was graduating from college, Rhode Island led the country, I think two years in a row in out-migration. Some people are moving right across the border to Massachusetts and Connecticut, but a heck of a lot of people are moving to Florida and Texas and North Carolina. And you have to ask the question why, right? And as you learn more and more about what's going on and my interest got a little bit deeper, I said, obviously a lot of this stuff lives in Washington. What are the organizations that are really making an impact that are not just typing words on a piece of paper, but are really making an impact? AFP was miles ahead of the rest of them. I moved down as an entry-level policy analyst in 2013. And, you know, they've given me.

me every opportunity to succeed. I actually left for a time, as I mentioned, went to Capitol Hill to actually work in Congress for a couple of years and came back, you know, a new person with a lot more experience and having learned a lot more, but really came not from studying, you know, free market economists or anything like that from a lived experience of my family and the place that I grew up and seeing what good and bad public policy looks like and wanting to make a difference in it. Gosh, I tell you what, man, if we were still producing returning the favor, I'd be calling and getting your permission to tag around with you for a day or two because I think what you're doing is it's not only important, it's moving the needle.

It's a great organization, but I think your personal story is pretty great. Hit me with the website again and any other persuasive call to act that our gentle listeners might be inspired to respond to. Absolutely. It is Prosperityispossible.com. That's Prosperityispossible.com. You can do two things there. You can contact your lawmakers with one click of a button on these. issues and you can tell your own story, which will be read and, you know, could be a compelling

story that we'd love to tell. And I would just make one final point, Mike, about what we do. What I do isn't the best thing, the most exciting thing, the most enjoyable thing about AFP. I'm in Washington. I sit in office. I go up to the Capitol and talk to lawmakers and staff and I do media and stuff like that. And I like doing it. I think the most special thing, the most unique thing that we do that we'd love to have you out someday and have any of your listeners in their communities, show up to an AFP field office, sign up, meet the person in your community who represents AFP in your city or town. Show up with us on a day of action, knock doors, make phone calls, meet that community, see what it's like when people are knocking

doors in a 100 degree heat in August in Miami or in a snowstorm in O'Clair, Wisconsin, in January. Why they do it, what it means to them and what it looks like when we're able to have wins to show for it. What it looks like to give a damn. I love it. We don't have an after show, but if we did, I'll just ask you this. Do you guys have a dog in this whole reparations hunt? We're not for reparations. Frankly, I think it's an overly complex issue. It's one that I'm not an expert in, but I think it exacerbates problems more than it solves them, is how I would put that. I think there's other things we can do to create opportunity in a society of mutual benefit and equality. A conversation for another time then, because I have a feeling, or maybe it's just my own recency bias out here in La La Land. But, This is an issue that's all over the headlines today, and I can't believe it's come this far, but there's going to be a big conversation.

And my hope is that it'll give organizations like yours an opportunity to really point very credibly to a really dangerous idea and talk about it in ways that will hopefully unite. I think it's going to be the next big issue. No, absolutely. I think making sure people are focused on creating empowerment and an opportunity society, that certainly takes us in the opposite direction. And I think there's, like I said, it's not one fell swoop solution.

It's not one bill, anything like that. But little by little by little, we make things better on the public policy around. We empower people. We empower the private sector and civic society. That's going to pull all people up and make our country better, stronger, and improve more lives than anything like this,

like a giveaway, could ever do. I love it. In other news, I will always remember 715 as Independence Day for your family. Congratulations on that. And let's do what we can to get reguflation into the vernacular. I think it's got legs, Akash. You got it.

We'll see you at a field office soon. Regulation is hurting your prosperity, one might say. That's exactly right. One could say. In fact, one just did. Thank you, brother. You're welcome here any time. I appreciate your time.

Mike, thank you for having me. If you like what you hurt. And even if you don't. Won't you please? Won't you please pretty. If you work When I hate He's,

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