The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 339: Nick Schiffer—Will A.I. Build Your House

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Nick is a custom homebuilder and skilled trades advocate who founded NS Builders and hosts the Modern Craftsman podcast. He talks skilled trades, the labor shortage, and the ancient dilemma of juggling quality, schedule, and price. 

Will AI Build Your House? That is the title of episode 339 of the way I heard it. Let me just stop you right there. No, no, it will not. I feel pretty strongly about it. You seem very certain. And our guest today has also a certain amount of certainty regarding a certain amount of things.

He's a builder. He's a custom home builder named Nick Schiffer. And I really like what Nick is doing. And you wound up going on. his podcast as a guest recently. How did that happen? And why? Can you dial back that all just a little bit that like what that, W-T-A-F when you asked that question? Sorry. He asked me, man. I mean, I was a consolation prize, truth be told. He wanted to get you on the podcast. Apparently, his podcast, all of his listeners have wanted you to be a guest for the longest period of time. And of course, you are

incredibly busy. But when I first met him to talk to him, we had a conversation. We zoomed for like 45 minutes and we had this great conversation. And he kept trying to get you on the podcast. I thought, he's not available then. He's not available then. Bob, blah, blah. We'll try and do it or whatever. And he said, well, why don't you come on? We had such a great chat. So I went on. Well, that's nice. Well, look, Nick Schiffer is a guy that you should know. See what happens when you ask a question? Yeah, yeah. You certainly answered the hell out of that one. Microworks, my modest little foundation, is giving away a million dollars next month. We're in the midst of our work ethic scholarship program, the second one of the year.

So super excited about expanding that. And I know this guy, Nick, because I did a live Instagram thing with him. It was a disaster about a year ago. I mean, it worked out all right, ultimately. But he was in Switzerland, and I was technically challenged. We wound up having a really great conversation. And, you know, I kept his contacts because I thought, you know, Nick is doing something. He's a custom home builder.

He started out as a carpenter, and now he's a general contractor, and he's really good. He has a company called NS Builders. Is it builder or builders? Builders, I believe. Yes. So they're plural. Although there's only one of Nick, as far as I know, NSBuilders.com. He's up in Boston, and he does custom homes, right?

He's pretty picky. He gets a lot of referrals, but what's interesting is he gets 90% of his business off social media. And the reason he has such a robust following is because he posts everything. He's constantly on Instagram talking about the trades. He's constantly talking about the skills gap. and the labor shortage on his own podcast, which is called? Oh, that is called Stand by Modern Craftsman. The one you were just on, Modern Craftsman.

Yes, the Modern Craftsman podcast, yes. So here's what I like about Nick Schiffer. He loves his job. He loves his career. He loves his vocation. He loves the trades. And he's not only working really hard to provide for his family. He thinks very much like an entrepreneur.

He works like an entrepreneur. He's got all the necessary skills, and he's built a great business. And I just thought he would be a good guy to talk to on this, the advent of another work ethic scholarship extravaganza. Just to get his thoughts on the current state of labor and to talk candidly about some of the obstacles that are keeping people from getting into the trades and consequently contributing to this giant never-ending skills gap,

we seem to be in the midst of. Indeed. And he speaks extemporaneously about these topics. And yeah, it surprised me when he said that as well that 90% of his referrals come from people who see him on social media. He's robust on Instagram and a bit of an influencer, as the kids say. And I wish more people were in the trades. Obviously, I'm out there. I'm noisy.

I make all kinds of racking around microworks, but I'm not the real deal, right? I can't build a house. Right. I need Nick in my life. I need the people that he employs. So I just wanted to make sure that as we start our scholarship program, we had a voice out there who is serious about advocating for the trades and who has the goods. I learned something early on. You'll hear it momentarily, but it's worth pointing.

out now. I've been saying for a couple of decades that for every five traits people who retire to replace them. Nick says that number is now closer to one. So the math is horrible. The question that I've been asking is, you know, not how much can you make as a plumber? The answer is quite a bit. The question is now, how long do you want to wait for one? And hopefully you won't be asking yourself that question, or electrician, or HVAC, or so forth and so on. But countries in a jam, the opportunities for those who want to learn a trader everywhere, and that's good news. There's no better example of that than the gentleman you're about to meet.

His name is Nick Schiffer, and he's standing by to entertain you and inform you right after this. Shameless plug. Long before she was Peggy Rowe, my mom was Peggy Noble, daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble. It was her father, Carl, who inspired me to pitch a show called Dirty Jobs to the Discovery Channel and later start a foundation that honored the kind of work Carl Noble did for a living, trade work, skilled labor. That foundation is called MicroWorks, and today I'm proud to tell you that we've helped thousands of people get the training they need to begin a career in the skilled trades. In fact, we'd love to help you.

You can apply for a work ethic scholarship right now at microwworks.org. we've set aside $10 million for this year's applicants, thanks to a number of very effective fundraisers, including the one with my grandfather's name on the label. I refer, of course, to Noble Tennessee Whiskey, K-N-O-B-E-L, which is now available in a variety of delicious mash bills, all of which you can peruse at noblespirates.com. In fact, if you spend $100 and use code Carl, C-A-R-L,

you'll get one tube of orange bitter infused sugar cubes for free. That's Code Carl with a C to get nine sugar cubes, ingeniously engineered to make nine perfect old fashions every time. It's my favorite way to support Microworks and my favorite whiskey to sip responsibly after a long day of interviewing people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirits.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-Spirates.com. Soon may the nobleman come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. It's been 125 days without rain, and it's been 27 days in a row over 115 degrees in Phoenix.

Yeah, a buddy of mine builds in Phoenix. Yeah, well, he told me that some of the trades start. I like how everyone reacts the same way. There is nothing to elicit a universal sigh. I know. Better than a sentence. Either goes, my buddy builds in Phoenix or my buddy builds in Anchorage. Either way.

Oh, oh, no. I think he was saying that some of the trades will start at 3 a.m. and work till 11. Totally. That makes sense. Absolutely. I mean, even at 11, like, you're ending the day at the hottest time the day. Well, it's caused new traffic patterns. like there's now like a weird rush hour around 11 o'clock at night.

Anybody who can get anything done outside basically is just saying, that's it, uncle. Night is day, day is night. You know, we just can't do it. But look, man, that's part of the drill, right? You know, you're in a tough business. And I read something on your Instagram page. By the way, I should just start by saying the last time I saw you, I was so pissed off.

We were just talking about this. I was so pissed off I could barely form a sentence. I had been sitting in this exact seat trying to get into Instagram to do that live chat. Yes. And it just beat me at every turn, man. It just pulled the soul out of me. Mike, so I got to tell you a story about that. So obviously that set up that whole talk for like great success.

But I got reached out to like a few weeks prior like, hey, do you want to interview Mike Row? I'm like, yeah, of course. Like I'd love to chat with them. and so I was like just put it in my calendar and I'll coordinate accordingly I fly at Switzerland I get off the plane I'm going to be touring these job sites and I look at my calendar I'm like oh my god I have to interview Mike Road tomorrow and I'm in a hotel and I'm like hey do you guys have strong Wi-Fi they're like oh no the Wi-Fi is terrible here and I'm like we can speak four languages but we can't say good Wi-Fi in any of them and I'm like and now I'm

down to like the hour. I'm like, I don't know what I'm like, I have to have good service. So I'm down in the lobby of the hotel and like the business center. There's people in there. And I'm like, hey, would you mind if I just, I'm going to be on camera. And they're like, yeah, we'll leave. We'll leave. So I'm sitting there and it's like the Wi-Fi is just not working.

And I was like, all right, I have self-service. I'm putting this on a stand and I'm just not going to touch the camera, the phone. So I'm like, we're good. You hop on. Then I can't hear you. And I'm like, wait a second. I am in Switzerland with no service. And I'm good.

And Mike can't figure out Instagram live. And I can't figure it out. And I was saying to Chuck is like I log on. There's like a hundred people that join because, you know, like that's who sees my Instagram live. You log on. 10,000 people show up at one time. And they're all screaming like, who's this kid? Why can't we hear Mike?

This is BS. And I'm looking. I'm like, do I pull the plug on this? And like, you know what? I'm just going to sit here and wait. Yeah. Well, what was torture. for me is I'm sitting here watching you vamp like a vaudevillian you know in 1920 you know I don't know you

all I know is you're doing this cool thing on Instagram and you've been a great champion of the trades and a great spokesman for the trades and so for that reason I told the people over at Instagram yes of course I'll do it and you know I had the long list of instructions I followed everything perfectly. Instructions, incidentally, provided by the one and only Chuck Klausmeier, who neglected to include somewhere near the top of that list, go ahead and, you know, refresh your Instagram account, which I've never even used before. I didn't know how to do it.

So anyhow, thank you for your patience, because for me, a guy that fancies himself, not necessarily a professional, but at least proficient at this one thing. Professional adjacent. I live on a street called professional, but not necessarily in the main house. Yeah. I just, I mean, watching you try and vamp by yourself like that, it just reminded me of my time on QVC 30 years ago. And I just thought, you know, this guy doesn't deserve this. He deserves better.

But you're not going to get it, brother. You're going to get me. That's it. That's it. I waited. Doug's behind the camera freaking out. Like, what do we do? I'm like, I don't know.

I'm just going to sit here. My service is fine if I don't move, so I'm not moving. Let's start with this then. Since we're bitching about technology, you've become a kind of gadfly in your industry. You're young, your vocal, you're obviously good at what you do. You have a, is it a construction company or what do we call it a building operation? Yeah, so I have a home building company and then partner in a millwork company as well. Right.

So the thing that makes you so interesting, Nick, is that you're not only doing. doing good work, you're talking about it. And not in a bragging way, but in a really curious way. It's like you just looked around and said, look, I'm going to make a reasonable case for my trade, for my profession. I've got some ideas too about entrepreneurship, which I really want to talk to you about, because that always gets lost in the shuffle. And I just figured, you know, we're going to do another work ethic scholarship program this

month. So who better to bring in than a guy's that really is more micro-working, if that's a word, than me. I appreciate that. So say something smart about technology and the trades today, because everything is AI and robots and people are freaked out. Agreed. And then you started to say that I wrote something on my Instagram,

and I'm curious if it's the same thing I'm about to mention. But the other day I talked about AI. And Chuck, we talked about this when you were on our podcast. There's that famous. way, how did that go? Chuck was a guest on your podcast? 10 out of 10. You're kidding me. 10 out of 10, man.

Yeah. Come on. Give it up. So you got a lot to live up to, man. No, you know what I'm doing right now? I'm running a basic calculus that says, is Chuck a better guest or a better producer? I'm thinking, he's a better guest with respect. Of course.

But we talk about that famous meme that went around that said, hey, chat GPT, finish this building and I love it because it likes you know everyone's like yeah you know the trades like you'll never be able to build a building with AI and listen as you said like I'm the biggest supporter of trades I think that craftsmanship is something that we should never lose that we should always support but the reality of where we are in the industry and we talked about this on Instagram live is that we're never going to replace all of the craft people that are retiring we will never have that many people back in the trades ever. And have you heard the same math that I've been quoting for years?

It's one to five. Is it one to five now? Some people say one. Some people will say two. That's what I read. And the reality of that, and there's a lot of things that are okay with that. Obviously, there's a lot wrong with it in the sense that, you know, it's an industry that is struggling to keep up with demand. And in that struggle, we end up with lower quality product,

lower quality homes, homes that have like severe liabilities. I'm watching buildings be built where I live that are ripped apart five years later because the workmanship wasn't done correctly. There's mold. Then people and kids are sick. It's really a big issue because people aren't taking the time to slow down and realize that, hey, this isn't about how fast and cheap I can do it. we need to focus on the right thing first, which is quality. But when you think about technology, AI specifically, and robots, it's like the reality of replacing these people is zero. We're not going to bring in that many people to replace the people that are retiring.

But we also fail to realize that innovation technology can help with that. And I make the case with, you know, my cabinet company, Ken, who is a partner in that company, you know, when he first started with me, We talked about CNC work, and he was romantic about using a table saw. He's like, it's just I like doing with a table saw, and I'm like, but why? And he's like, I just feel like it gives me a better product or more control. Whatever the case is, it's like, it gives you more control because you don't have to think about it before you do it.

You just go on the saw, you cut it based on the size you need. A CNC, you've got to think about it, program it, then cut it. But the reality of what we're doing there is we're taking the monotonous task, and oftentimes labor-intensive task of handling sheets of plywood on a table saw over your head and putting it into a computer control like a CNC to allow the monotonous labor-intensive tasks to be done more efficiently because labor is very expensive, where we can take that pool of money for labor and then focus on the craftsmanship side of it, the creativity of it, where it's, you know, sure, you can look at it as you're reducing the cost of construction,

but if you have a lump sum of money and you figure out how to take a portion of that money and push it into automation like CNC work or robots or things like that, and then take the rest of that money and then give it to the labor force that does exist, that does want to do high-quality work and say, hey, you have a little bit more time, you have a little bit more budget to do a really high-quality job. And we'll use technology to allow you to have that. So when do you worry, if you worry at all? about the line between effectiveness and efficiency.

Like, when do we outsmart ourselves in your line of work? When, for instance, you know, I hear people talk about the unintended consequences of a calculator in a basic math class, right? It's like, what are we really doing there? And the argument, of course, is, well, if you've mastered the basics, this is simply a tool that'll get you through the brutal, wrote stuff faster. But if you don't master the basics,

if you don't understand the relationships between numbers and all you have as a keyboard, then sooner or later you're not going to be able to unravel the kinds of equations and theorems that can change the world, right? So is there a corollary for that kind of thinking in the trades? I mean, I think so. And I think about the fact, like, you know,

I know some builders. that, you know, when they bring on an apprentice, they're not allowed to use a nail gun. It's like, hey, for 12 months, you only get a swing a hammer. You get to learn that way and then you'll graduate up to a nail gun. I think that's a great way to allow someone to understand and respect how it was done before this. And, you know, the calculator is a great example where, yeah, it should be used as a tool. The C&C should be used as a tool. The robot that's driving around the concrete deck laying out the entire floor for 18 condominiums

and a high rise, that, replace the guy snapping lines and spraying it with clear spray paint. Yeah, that should be replacing that job because that prevents the guy from being down on his knees and also prevents the discrepancy between what is drawn and what he snaps with a chalk line. So it's the romantic thing, Nick. I mean, that's such a great word to use with this. Have you done much work shoulder to shoulder with rodbusters, iron workers? Yeah.

Well, at the time, I was like an assistant project manager. So I was the kid they hated. Well, you know, they were the clipboard counting like, all right, you got 58 number eights. Yeah, you guys are good. They're like, yeah, get the hell out of here. I'm just thinking, I mean, that job in the construction trades, I haven't seen a better example of a band of brothers mentality. Oh, my gosh. I wouldn't agree with that.

I mean, it's just, it makes everything else pale. And one of the things I saw them do was compete with each other with this tying, right? So you lay down the rebar in a giant grid, and then they're bent over, and they're using pliers in one hand, and they've got a big roll of wire on their hip, and they just move with the speed of a demented blackjack dealer. I mean, it's so fast, and it's so good. And there's so much pride in the work. And I spent maybe five hours throwing my back out, trying to figure this out. And then, of course, once I get it, they pull out a machine that you can hold in your head.

Right. And I'm like, oh, my God. Right. So you had this thing the whole time. Right. But that's what I'm trying to get at. I mean, I'm not asking it very elegantly, but there's always an unintended consequence. There's some sort of price to pay for efficiency.

Well, think about, I mean, think about the skill saw, just for example. It's like now the skill saw is the romantic way of cutting sheet goods where it's like well before that it was a hand saw and there was a point in time where we finally let go of the hand saw. And I just think our industry is romantic by nature in the sense that we hold on to this stuff for an extremely long unnecessary amount of time. And now it's the whole like cordless platform. It's like I'm not buying cordless cord. It's the way to go. It's like, are you sure about that? because some of this cordless stuff

is more powerful than that corded cordiside. It's also 50% of the weight. So now you get to hold that thing in your arm and your shoulder's not blown out at the end of the day. And it's like, yeah, but that makes you a man. It's like... Being attached to a cord? It's always like a weird, like, a weird connection.

It's like, no, man, like you do this because you love this. Listen, I don't swing a hammer anymore. I talk about it all the time how I miss doing it. I run my business. I'm building a team. I'm building a brand. Like, that's my focus. But there is something about the connection to hard work, right?

And like when you go home and you feel like you're just like beat, you're sweaty, you smell. There's no other feeling that I've experienced that makes you feel so accomplished for the day. Then your own stink. Yeah, I just like crack a beer, whatever it is. Like, it feels so well deserved because you. you've busted your ass. But that's romanticism. Right.

You are romantically attracted to that feeling. But if you can extend the opportunity in your life by utilizing things that don't beat you up so much, you still get hard work, you're still going to sweat, you're still going to stink, but you're not going to have a shoulder that's blown out when you're 40 years old. Look, I think the pride that goes into a hard day's work is not the exclusive terrain of the skilled tradesman. I know lots of writers who, after eight or ten hours of intense focus, they stand up, they crack their back. I mean, you can see the work done. And it's just a question of, are you taking a shortcut or not?

Are you mailing it in or are you really doing the work? And, you know, it's back to the efficiency thing. Again, if the tools make things so easy, do you wind up robbing yourself of the very feeling that you're sort of eulogizing, right? now, the satisfaction that comes from knowing you didn't cheat, right? The satisfaction of a job well done, a hard day's work. I get that it's romantic. And I just always struggle, too, with where to draw the line between making a persuasive case for all of these jobs in your industry that are wide open and truly represent great opportunities and not over romanticizing them and not trying to pretend.

And I think this was on your feed as well. And I was really glad to read it where you said, look, you know, let's not bullshit each other. It's hard work. Yeah. I don't care how efficient you become. I don't care how technical the opportunities get. It's hard work. That's still the case, no?

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at puretalk.com slash row. Yeah. No, it is. And I've, going back to what you said about feeling as though you've cheated yourself, I think that comes down to the individual. Where like at the end of the day, you know, I'm a huge supporter of innovation and technology, but that doesn't mean that I won't rip out a skill saw when I need to and enjoy that, or grab a hammer and sink in a 16.

There's still the individual that gets to make that decision. It's the same thing with this whole chat GPT thing, where it's, you know, it's, you know, oh this is like kids are just going to use it to write papers the kid that's going to use that to write a paper is the same kid that's going to find another way to avoid writing that paper where it's like the kid that is going to like enjoys writing stands up and cracks his back and feels like he did a job well done he's not going to use chat gpt and if he does he's using it for like a reference material to actually help him do the research maybe he hates doing research right he's like hey this is a tool that i get to do research now i get to go focus on what i

actually like about my job. For me, that's the message is like, get rid of the stuff that you don't enjoy. It's hard work. So you can still love the hard work. You can still do the hard work. But there's no matter what you do, there's always parts of your job that you just do not like. And if you were able to outsource that, whether that's an administrative assistant or an AI bot, like, why wouldn't you take advantage of that? And the only reason you wouldn't is because you're too tied up in the first.

fact that I can't support that. Or maybe, maybe there's an unintended benefit to doing a thing you don't like. And maybe if we wind up in some world where we can magically arbitrage all of the unpleasant tasks that we don't find personally satisfying out of our life, maybe then we wind up losing the basic appreciation for the things we do enjoy. And maybe that level of enjoyment suddenly becomes lessened because we don't have anything crappy to compare it to. Yeah. I mean, not to get all philosophical about it, right? No, but there's no heads without a tail. You're absolutely right. And I think that's a fair argument and it came up on that post is like if we get rid of all the crappy work, you're not going to appreciate, you're not going to be creative. Creativity is bred from

constraint. And, you know, and that's fair. And I don't disagree with that. You know, I just think that in the, we'll call it a crisis that we are in with labor shortage and the skilled trades specifically we have to support both sides of this we are not going to replace everyone so we need to be supportive in innovation and people you ask the question when do i think the pendulum swings too far in the other direction right where we get so wrapped up and like utilizing i think that we will hit that and i think that there will be i think right now people are trying to swing that pendulum as far as they can how do i outsource everything. How do I get a robot to do everything? Chuck, you said, there'll never be a robot that replaces the toilet. And I said, I disagree with that.

They will be. At some point, there will be a robot that drives around and it will start in commercial construction on a high rise. 10,000 square foot plate, that robot's going to be walking around with a collar, strapped to the front of it, walk in, find the flange, drop it in place, put the nuts and walk and drive away. Is it going to be the same robot that goes into a townhouse that was built in 18, you know, 90 and up a set of stairs that's 28 inches wide? No, not now, but it could get to that point. I don't know when that time is. We look at commercial construction and we're seeing the advancement happen in big scale.

Like that layout robot, you know, HP just came out with one, or at least I just saw it, you know, on LinkedIn the other day. And it drives around and lays out the whole floor. And people are like, yeah, but it's having ink cartridge issues. I'm like, my printer sitting on my desk. has ink cartridge issues. It's like that's your argument to, you know, but the point is,

is it starting. Chuck, I can't remember if it was you I had the conversation with. It's the same thing with restaurants. McDonald's just announced, what, that first human free restaurant.

It's like, well, you know, like that's not going to be everywhere. It's like, no, but the fact that there's one, there's going to be a wave of other restaurants

that do that. Now, is that going to replace the Del Frisco's? where you go in and you're expecting like, you know, service? Absolutely not. But you'll have the option to it where it's like you can go to the McDonald's that's human free and you get food.

You can go to Del Frisco's. You can go in there and have all human interaction and get food. You're doing the same thing, but you're paying for a different experience. Okay. I like the corollary. I like the metaphor. I mean, you got a vending machine on the far left where you can get a Zagnut anytime you want on the far right.

You've got, you know, Lebeck Finn, where you're, You can get one of the best meals ever anywhere on the planet. And in between, there's a whole lot of room for a whole lot of other things. But it's down to, like you were talking about craftsmanship. And then you talked about quality. And, you know, when you think about chefs and cooks and restaurants and ingredients, right, all that stuff kind of translates as well. But in your space, and not to get too egg-headed about it,

But what's the difference between craftsmanship and quality? I don't think there is. I think craftsmanship's directly related to quality. What's the enemy of craftsmanship? Like, why is it so hard to find now? How do we get in our own way? Sure. So relating it to like specific trades is the best way for me to kind of respond to that

where I look at my tile guy. He's a one-man show. and he showed up on my job site. I remember going there in the afternoon, and he was leaving at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. I'm like, where are you going? He goes, I got to go grow out a back splash. I'm like, why do you have, can't you do that tomorrow?

He goes, dude, I don't make enough money to do one job a day. I got to do two. And I was like, how much would I have to pay you to do this job to keep you here all day? Because if I keep you here all day, you'll be more focused on this. Because at 10 o'clock in the morning, you were probably thinking about the fact that you need to leave

within three hours. He's like, I have to charge you double. I'm like, charge me double. He's like, you serious? I'm like, yeah. I mean, it's my job as the G.C. to sell the value of paying you double, right? The market is the market. Every market's different. But there was room in it. We weren't beating up on price. I don't beat our trades up on price. If I'm going to ask for a better price, it's, hey, how do we do this job for a less expensive way based on your knowledge? And I'll come back to that. But the tile guy, He's like, okay, I'll charge you double. And now he makes enough money where he can show up and stay on my job all day. And I had the conversation with him.

I'm like, when you got into this industry, it's likely that you got into the industry because you liked doing tile work, right? You know, maybe he fell into it for some other reason, but there's a chance that he liked doing tile. And over the years of being in tile work, he was on job to job that was, hey, I need you to do it faster. I need you to do it less expensive. How do I get your price down?

And sure, over time, he becomes more efficient, but he's always beat up on faster and cheaper, faster and cheaper, faster and cheaper. And then all of a sudden, 15 years into his career, he meets me, and I'm like, charge me more money. If I get a better job out of you, if I get a higher level of quality, of course it's worth more money. Let's bring you back to why you got into this industry. You didn't get into this industry to do it as fast and cheap as you possibly could. you know and the reality of that is we i'm classifying like as builders there's so many of these builders that are beating up the trades constantly where it's like that you know maybe hey don't worry

on the next one i got you but the reality is it's like hey we're going to beat you up give me your best price those guys don't have a saving they're not putting money away they're scraping by to get that job done because there's this like fallacy that there's all of this work and when When things don't go well, like they don't feel indebted to that tile guy that they promise to get another job. It's like, hey, sorry, like, we're out of work. But going back to, you know, from efficiency and cost, like, I'll talk to my painter. It's like, hey, your price is $50,000 for this job.

You know, I'm trying to get it down to 40. How can I do that? I'm not asking you to take a haircut. I'm not asking you to do the job cheaper. Tell me what I could do to make your job more efficient. Oh, well, we're pricing it based on the fact that we know that you're not going to be ready. Okay. All right.

So if I gave you the house completely to yourself, no other trades in there, what could we do it for? He's like, I could hit your 40 number. Great. I'll sign something saying that if I don't have the house ready for you, charge me the 50. But if I do have the house ready for you, I'll pay you the 40. You're still going to make the right margin on either side. And it's protected. For us, it's this collaborative approach.

It's this collaborative effort of, yeah, price is always a factor. But it shouldn't be out of the pocket of our tradespeople. So this is expectations, basically, like setting expectations. And I guess that's for sale in any vocation, in any trade, any job anywhere. And it's in such short supply. It's like bromides and platitudes are constantly unraveling before us, right? And we're like, I think just in a very broad way, we've entered into a state, into a time where all the old chestnuts are just falling apart.

And the big one that comes to mind when I listen to you talk is you get what you pay for. A lot of people still believe, and they're clinging to it. They're clinging to the idea, okay, look, I'll pay, I'll pay. But my expectations are now way up here vis-a-equality and craftsmanship. Chuck probably told you about the Odyssey he's gone through for the last nine months, right? He's got two bathrooms been replaced. And he went from this is a four-day job to nine months later. And you could go down a list of things that just did not pan out.

Mistake after mistake, heartbreak after heartbreak. And, you know, it's your story to tell, Chuck, but you're looking at a bill that would suggest absolute A-plus quality, absolute excellence with regard to craftsmanship. you did not get what they want you to pay for. And so I guess, Nick, my question is, is that why your business is doing as well as it is? Are you, like, what's your main commitment to success? Is it to the customer? Is it to your trades?

Is it to yourself? Is it to your own legacy, your own standards? I think it's one and the same. And, you know, there's that classic, like, cliche, you know, quality, schedule, and price, pick two. You can't have all three. And I've said it in every time I've sat down with the client, I'm like, I don't agree with that. You know, for us, quality is always going to be number one.

You know, and then price and schedule, you get to decide. Is it more important to be on a particular budget or a particular time frame? If you say, hey, my budget can't, like, this is my max budget. That doesn't mean schedule goes out the window. That just means I'm prioritizing schedule. I mean, price over schedule. Like our commitment is quality and that's to everyone. That's to our client.

That's to me. That is to our trades. And I'm not easy to work for in the sense of that, meaning that my expectations are, I try to be very, very clear and very upfront with my expectations. The reality is, is like, the commitment to quality is so high and the expectations are so high that I'm constantly pushing my team to micro level. And I'm also pushing our trades to a micro level, but I'm not doing it because they're not doing a good enough job. I'm doing it because I see more in them than they see in themselves.

And I know that they want to do a better job, but they can't get out of their own mind in the sense that I've been driven to do this faster and cheaper my whole career. And now someone's telling me to slow down and do a better job. And that's the challenge. So, you know, you talk about you get what you pay for. And I think when I hear that, I think when a lot of people hear that, they immediately go to, well, you know, I'm not wealthy, so I'm never going to get what, you know, get a better quality product. That's not what we're saying here. One of the issues, especially with home building, is that with the constant, do it faster, do it cheaper, houses got really big and really quick. and so all of a sudden, you know, you're talking about these massive homes that are being built

faster and cheaper. And it's like, well, I don't have a million dollars to build a home. I only have 300,000. You can build a really nice $300,000 home. It's not going to be as big as a million dollar home. And people are less apt to be okay with that. They still want a big home. And they often say, I want the space, reduce the quality.

do they actually say that out loud i mean do no but your sentence was they actually say yes they will say something and i will repeat back i'm like what you're saying is that i want a really big house and less quality i had a client years ago we priced the job and multi-million dollar home beautiful home like architecturally like amazing and sat down went through our proposal and he's like all right let me give me some time to think about it. He calls me the next day. He goes, hey, Nick, I'm going to be straightforward with you. You guys are awesome.

You guys, this would be a museum piece. You guys would crush it. Like, I understand your quality. I just don't care about it. I want a big house and I don't want to pay this much money. So I'm going to find a guy that can do a C plus job. And I told the story to someone. They're like, were you pissed off?

I'm like, I was so happy. Of course. He came to the realization that he did not value what we were providing. He wanted a cheaper. Big house. And he knew that we could not do that. Again, that's expectation. Oh, you could do that, Nick.

I could. You could do it. But you've got to build your business on something. And I apologize. I probably should have asked you this right out of the gate. But just describe the nature of your business to me, the size, the scope, and the kinds of projects that you normally work on. And feel free to shamelessly plug what you're doing.

because, look, I am a fan, and I believe, especially in light of Chuck's most recent experience, that if you're ethical in this business, if you show up when you say you're going to show up, and if you come in on budget and on time, you're going to have more work than you can ever hope to finish. So assuming that's true, how has your business evolved over the years? who um so i started the business well first and foremost uh before business and everything i'm a husband and a father of four kids so my life is immediately chaos there um but beyond that i started my business 10 years ago as a carpentry business before that i was four years in high-rise commercial construction as a project manager and before that 11 years with my dad at a residential fence

company in stout massachusetts uh he continues to run that business business and I went off and started my own business after the high-rise stuff. And I started it because I enjoyed the high-rise process, but I found myself working nights and weekends to scratch the craftsmanship itch. Was this in Boston as well? Boston, yeah. So I left my full-time job. I started my business as a sole one-person carpentry company.

But my goal was always to eventually build homes. And for a few years, it was just me and a helper and we were just doing remodel. and cabinetry and things like that. And it was when I hired Mike, who is still with me today, and he was a carpenter. And I was like, oh, wow, there's another carpenter that cares as much as I do. And then, you know, realize, oh, wow, he's actually growing into a better carpenter than me really quickly. And that's when I started realizing, what if I collected really great people and built a business

out of this? And, you know, fast forward to today, we're a team of 15. and that is a director of operations, pre-construction. We have project managers, site superintendents, carpenters, home care team that maintains the homes after. And NS builders, my home building company, we build, we renovate because it's Boston. We're never going to get away from renovation, but we build high-end homes. And I hate the word high-end because it's so, I feel like it's so general, but we're typically working with very discerning clients that have a very high level of expectation. and oftentimes they're building what they would consider either their forever home or it's

one of multiple homes that they own and that they just want someone that is going to be a good communicator. You talk about being ethical, you know, all of our entire ethos is centered around communication. And when a client's working with us, communication is our number one priority and we're probably overly thorough and maybe redundant in ways of communication, but our our clients expect that, and that's what they're asking for. I can't think of another industry where you can get a quote for a job, and then the next guy can come in and it's twice as much, or half as much, or three times as much. And it's awkward for me because I'm constantly trying to make a case for your industry and for the opportunities in it.

But look, people are frustrated. There just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason. for the cost of a thing. So is your commitment to communication and attempt to correct that? And what do you do when you, what do you do when you come in and you're two or three times more

than the last guy? How do you explain that? Well, our pricing model is fully transparent. So we typically walk them through the entire budget for their project. Our discrepancy typically is what we would consider our general conditions for the job.

So that's going to be like, site supervision, you know, and software costs and, you know, things that it takes to build the job outside of the actual building of the job. And that's usually where we have the biggest discrepancy if we're, you know, priced up against someone else. But the reality of that is if we are all, like if we're competitively bidding something and there's multiple builders, the discrepancy should not be that wild. And if it is, it's because someone didn't assume something correctly. and that is either due to incomplete drawings or just a lack of understanding. And the challenge there is the client, which is where this frustration comes from,

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that's my goal is to educate them and make sure that we're very clear as to what assumptions we're making, what allowances we're making. And I'm not famous, but there's a story within my company that we were supposed to build this job years ago. And we got hired to do the demolition. And he's like, hey, the demolition, we're just going to do that as its own scope. and the client's going to see how well you do. And if he likes you, you're going to do the rest of the job.

I'm like, okay. And we were still pricing the rest of the job. Long story short, we're done with demolition. Like the last day, I'm driving the lift down like this hallway in a condo to an elevator. And we had submitted our proposal the night before. The architect calls me, he goes, hey, we got a problem. I'm like, what's going on? He's like, you know, we were like a million.

And he's like, it's got to be under a million. I'm like, okay. I mean, your drawings were complete. Like, you had the spec of the screw I used on the hinge. This isn't a matter of, like, making an assumption. Like, I priced exactly what this was. But let me make some, you know, offerings of, hey, we can value engineer these things. And we submit a price that's like $9.90 or something.

And he calls me within four hours and says they went with a different contractor. And I was so confused. and just like kind of taken back and I was like what was their price 550 I'm like oh okay my hard cost on this job are substantially more than that so and at the time I was young and I didn't understand how to communicate effectively fast forward two and a half years and I've been following this project on social media because like I knew who was working on it and it was never a complete photo I get this call it's like hey you might not remember me I'm like I remember you like what's going on Hey, would you mind, would you be willing to swing by that job that you looked at a couple years ago?

You know, we unfortunately had to fire the contractor and we're hoping to wrap it up. And from a business perspective, no, not at all. But out of curiosity, yeah, no problem. I'll be there. You had to. And I walk in and I'm like, got it. Quality of work way down. I found out that that builder went out of business because he was losing his shirt on the job.

Surprise, surprise. and they took full advantage of them and I'll never forget the architect looked at me and said hey we've talked and I'm like about and he's like so if you can come in here and fix everything we're going to give you the rights to publish this as your own project

and I was like oh you misunderstood me I was just coming here as like a favorite I'm out I'm not interested and I just left and it was at that moment I think in my career where I was like I need to do a better job communicating not only for our clients, but for other builders and other peers. And that's why we share so much where it's like, you guys, like that guy went into that. He probably put his family

at a huge financial risk, if not complete loss. He's risking the quality of construction, which could be detrimental to who lives there, the building. There's all of these negative impacts to what I would consider taking advantage of the trades and a contractor. And it's the same thing that happens when you drive, hey, you got to do this cheaper, you got to do this faster. It's like, at what expense? I live in Boston. I live in South Boston. So anyone that's listen to this knows exactly what I'm talking about.

But my wife at this point now laughs because we watch a building go up. She looks at me and she goes, how long? I'm like, I give it six months before a boom lift is parked in front of that thing. Sure enough, they deliver it. People move in. Six months later, boom lift. She's like, Nick, there's another one. I'm like, yeah.

and I guarantee it, and they're ripping the siding off trying to chase a leak. Because I watched it be built, and I'm like, waterproofing details aren't correct. They have these candle levers, they have these window details, and they're not correct because no one's being trained. But they're also hiring not qualified trades and saying you've got to do it as fast as possible and as cheap as possible. We have a building that's massive in Boston right now. They ripped off all, not just a little bit, all of the brick veneer on the whole building.

whole building. And everyone's like, what's going on? I'm like, what's going on? They did it wrong. Who pays for that? I'm like, I don't know that answer. But I can tell you right now. I can tell you right now that, like, this is the issue here.

Yeah. I was just going to ask you the same relative question over here, 3,000 miles from you in San Francisco. We've got this embarrassment called Millennium Towers. Have you read anything about this? No. It's crooked. It's like the leaning tower of Beezza, only bigger.

It's one of the biggest projects. It's down past the Embarcadero, down on the water. And it is, I mean, if you Google it, you'll find 100 pages. People are still living in it. But it's appalling. I mean, there... Oh, is this the Salesforce building? No.

That was an issue too, right? That's an issue, too. That thing, I was driving over the Bay Bridge the other night. coming back and the sunset in such a way that the top of that bill first of all it looks like a penis which is just shocking except for the very very top which looks like the top of the sorens tower in right the Tolkien books and the sun is shining through the it looks like the dark tower anyway look tastes there's no accounting for it sure you right but i mean how do you explain a hundred this is a billion dollar project it's crooked it's leaning

and people are scared. They don't know. Like no one knows what to do. No one knows who to blame. No one knows whether they should move in or move out. And I just wonder, when you read about projects like that, you know, do you just kind of put yourself in that place and say, what could I have done if I was the GC on this to make absolutely positively sure that's going to never happen?

More so on the smaller ones because of experience, right? But that example, the crazy thing is that happens a lot more than anyone knows. I knew of a few projects in Florida. I think it was 18 inches one side of the building dropped. And it was during construction. So when you're building a high-rise, they have a survey crew on site, and they're citing that, making sure you're going up plum. One of the things I learned when we were doing the building that we were building is that you have to take into account. you're basically building it with the assumption of what it will weigh.

Because when you're building 30 stories tall with steel, your building's actually bowed at the very top. And then you're loading it with 210 precast panels with the assumption that it's going to flatten out. So they're doing all these calcs. And during that project, I don't know the name of the building, but I also don't know if I'm allowed to talk about what building it is.

but they were loading the precast and the building every panel sunk like six inches and thankfully it was a non-issue they were able to correct it but it's like there are some of those things where you know in that case i don't know what i would have done if you're drilling down to bedrock you think about i'm sure you've seen casons be drilled these guys have these five-foot augers completely blind drilling 150 feet down coring into the bedrock and then placing rebar cages and concrete all the way down. So in my eyes, why would that building sink? You're connected to bedrock.

But the reality is it's like there's all of these other things that, sure, that holds up the building when it's complete. But what about the way you load the building? What if, you know, the building gets loaded on the left side and so that right? And that's the stuff that, you know, when I think about craftsmanship and how it relates to things like that, I almost think that that is, it's not so much about the craft or doing quality work in that moment. It's about the thought of what the goal was with that project and how, you know, they're phasing the project where it's like, hey, we have to do this in this amount of time. You know, it's like speed is very much a proponent in commercial construction, high-rise construction. Everything is based on speed.

You know, they're going up with a concrete core and they're, it's seven-day rotation. every seven days they're placing another floor of concrete. Because you work for the concrete once you start pouring that stuff. That's it. That's it. In my experience with that commercial side, it's way more common than anyone really understands. And the reality of, I think, where we're at, especially when it ties back to like structural design, is that, yeah, it's leaning. But it's, I don't know about that building in particular.

but yeah, this stuff happens, but it's not, the building's not going to collapse, you know? I mean, I don't, I don't know. I can't say that. I don't know. But you would think that they're built to such a level. Like when we're doing homes, it's like, hey, you need a 30 inch LVL on that door. It's like, 30? They're like, yeah, you got to have a huge point load. It's like, I'm pretty sure I could do a 12 inch LVL and we'd be all right.

It's like, yeah, but we three X the load just to be safe. I'm like, right. And still, it was like a year ago. that apartment complex in Miami, just fell down. Just fell down. Yeah. Right? So, I mean, look, I get it.

Second Law Thermodynamics. There's a whole bunch of stuff that we simply can't control. But that's macro stuff. On a micro level, what you're doing at NS Builders. And I'm curious, and I should have asked you when we spoke last on Instagram, but why have you taken it upon yourself to be so transparent and so out there? And so talking about the stuff that I normally wind up talking about myself. I mean, it's funny, man, I can't do what you do.

I've sort of appointed myself as a concerned citizen who is genuinely interested in seeing the skills gap close. I really and truly am a fan of your skill. I just wonder why more people in your position haven't stepped up to do this, because honestly, and take this as a very general observation, but the trades need to do a better job of making a persuasive case for the opportunities therein, I think. And I've never been able to unravel the question, why? Why don't they?

So I think there's a few things there, and I'm going to make a weird relation to health. But I think it's the same reason why that so many construction workers are unhealthy. because they are so tied up in their work and they're so focused on their work, they're exhausted by the end of the day that it's easier to go buy a slice of pizza for lunch or a sub off the truck than it is to go home, prep food, eat healthy, go to the gym. They're exhausted and they don't have the time. Never mind prep their food and keep themselves healthy, but then to go, what, promote the trades?

Dude, I got enough going on. Like, what do you want me to do? you want me to have some punk kids show up and I'm going to teach them how to use a table side tell them to go to trade school it's like they don't exist anymore they're stripping shops out of schools well that's not my problem I'm like no it's not your problem but you could be part of the solution it's a timing thing and for me why I do it I think that you know on one hand I want to I want to build iconic homes around the world I want to be known for that that's what I want to be known for but at the same time I'd love to be someone that advocates for good craftsmanship, quality work, and the trades in general.

And I think that in my education and the content that we're sharing to educate, it's hitting every market. My clients are watching it and saying, wow, he really gives a shit. I have peers at watch it, be like, wow, I didn't realize you could do that, or that's a great tip, or that's going to save me money, or that's going to save me time. other people in other trades are watching it. It's very easy for us to document and share, right? Is there a labor problem? Is there a union problem? I'm just thinking, Chuck, I'm thinking of Jeff, a buddy from high school, Jeff Wilson,

an honest plumber, hardworking, 61 years old now. If he ever retires, it'll be just because he, you know, he feels. like it. He's got more work than he could do, right? And so he works constantly and he's really, really good at it, and he can charge pretty much whatever he wants. So I'm very happy for my friend and I'm very quick to point out the thousands of opportunities in the plumbing trade right now. But I ask myself sometimes if I'm successful and I get that gap filled and the supply and the demand thing is impacted as it obviously would be, then maybe Jeff doesn't have as much work as he would like.

And maybe he can't charge what he's charging. And maybe there's some sort of conversation going on within the industry that says, look, on a micro level, this is good for us. And so it puts me in a weird spot because as a guy who doesn't want to wait three days or three weeks for a plumber, right, I've got, the motivation on the consumer side. I've got a certain interest in what I think is good for our country vis-a-vis a balanced workforce. And I have personal friends in the industry who I'm delighted to see making mid-six figures, in part because they're surrounded by people whose commitment

to quality is not like yours. And just the fact that every time five leave, one or one and a half replaces them. So I just like your thoughts on how you thread that needle. I think that, you know, the fact that people are in a position where they'll pay a plumber any amount of money to come fix something, right? The emergency case is directly related to the fact that the first guy that did it wasn't paid appropriately or given the time necessary to do a quality job or wasn't qualified. So for me, if I'm out there and we're doing the best work that we can, now, listen, we're not perfect.

I've posted plenty of videos where I've done something completely wrong and someone's called me and we've went back and fixed it and talked about it because that's the reality of the world we live in. We're not going to do everything right, but I'm going to share everything anyway. But the point is that we're going to always put our best foot forward and always do the best that we possibly can within our own ability, knowing that if I'm sharing that, someone else is going to absorb that and hopefully just elevate a little bit better than they were doing yesterday. And if everyone continues to be a little bit better than they were the day before, you know, there won't be this insane demand for repairs. And like, you've got to come here.

It's flooding my whole house because someone did a poor job. Didn't crimp a fitting correctly. Now, on the other side of that, trades should be paid a better wage. There's no doubt. And I think this is what you're asking is like it's a fine line to walk where it's, you know, I don't want to come off as though I'm anti-labor, which I was called out on Instagram for being anti-labor yesterday. I'm like, okay, you clearly didn't listen to the whole podcast, but that's okay. I hope you're having a good day. But the reality is it's not that I'm anti-labor,

it's that the labor needs to be better educated and more qualified and paid appropriately, where it's like if you're going to pay a plumber $200 an hour to come out and fix something immediately, it's like, but the plumber that installed it was paid 30. It's like, well, what if you pay the better plumber 70. Aren't we really just shooting ourselves on the foot and delaying the issue? Like get it up as fast as you can. Maybe we'll fix it later. And hopefully there's no lawsuit that is ensued.

And everyone holds their breath. Right. Right. It's interesting. You know, I hadn't thought about it quite like that. But I had a conversation just the other day with a buddy of mine, you know, my, my union, such as it is, the Screen Actors Guild and the Writers Guild. they're striking right now.

And the lines are pretty bright. We started talking about AI, and that's a big issue in our world right now. You know, most of the stuff I do is not, you know, under the jurisdiction of the union, but I still have a lot of skin in that game. And so I'm hyper-interested in seeing how this thing is going to shake out. But what's more interesting to me is the fact

a lot of people on the sidelines who are watching this go back and forth, they don't care the way I thought they might, right? They don't care because you've got a lot of people in power on the studio side who are making hundreds of millions of dollars. And you have a lot of celebrities on the talent side who are making hundreds of millions of dollars. And on top of everything else, you have this feeling that the product that's coming out of Hollywood is just not that great. So people aren't really sympathetic because the underlying quality of the product isn't impressive to them. So I wonder if the underlying quality of the work in your industry has got so many people so freaked out combined with the

the vagaries of pricing projects and all of these other things that, you know, people are tired. And as a result of that, the skills gap maybe just keeps getting wider and wider. And stuff keeps breaking down and our towers are leaning and we're waiting three days for a plumber. And everybody's just kind of in a constant state of disappointment. Yeah, I mean, it's like that example of us being a half a million dollars off. I was frustrated. The part I didn't mention is the fact that I found out that about three years later, the architect actually never shared my proposal with him because he was embarrassed

because he had told the client that he thinks the project's a half a million dollar job. So he basically found a guy to commit to doing it for half a million, probably by way of like, hey, this is going to be published and, you know, this is going to be the coolest project you ever done type of scenario. But from a client's perspective, it's a same, We're seeing massive frustration. There's a couple of things here, but they're designing homes, right? They're bringing an architect.

They're designing a home. Then they come to us. And I had an architect who I really wanted to work with, and we sat down and we reviewed the design. They literally referred to me, the builder, as the dentist. Meaning that they gave them the candy and I'm the dentist. And I'm about to tell them how many cavities they have. And I was like, okay, that's just a terrible. Like, you're setting me up for failure here.

And sure enough, we price it. We're $2 million more than they want. They're like, how can you be $2 million more? It's like, I'm not $2 million more. You designed a house that is $2 million more than you want to spend. That's not a me problem. You can ask any builder. Every builder is going to pay very close to the same for labor.

We're all paying the same for material, give or take a percent. We're all approaching this relatively the same way. I'm not $2 million more because I'm driving. having a nicer truck. I'm not $2 million more because I want to make more money. That's just not the reality of where we're at. We're in a world where, you know, there's not enough collaboration there. So the frustration is always around us coming in higher than they want.

Every project, every single project. No, we've never walked into a project said, wow, you're right where we wanted this project to be. Let's go. It's always like, that's more money. Usually it's, that's more money I want to spend, but it is what it is. Right. Or, hey, how can we value engineer this?

All right. So look, let's land the plane on a happy note. I mean, because obviously, everybody is aware of the challenges. People are freaked out by technology. We've talked about AI. We've talked about the skills gap and everything else. But what do you love about your vocation? And what do you feel most optimistic about as you look down the road?

I love the human aspect of it. I love the fact that I get to work with people. that do love what they do. I love the fact that we are constantly challenging ourselves, the process, our creativity, and that we are awarded the ability to do that. You know, incredibly grateful for the clients that we have and the opportunities that we have. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, being able to be on a job site with a bunch of people that have a common goal, something really, really cool about that. And of course, stepping back at the end of the day or a year later when the job is done and seeing that, it's like we did that.

That's what I love. What I'm most optimistic about is that I believe that we've done a really great job communicating to society that the trades are a great opportunity. But we're missing the education component right now. and I'm optimistic that despite the pendulum swinging wildly in both directions, that it will eventually find center and that we will have innovated and embraced technology while also encouraging and educating trades to be able to not only do quality work, but to be paid appropriately. and I think that it will be an uphill battle, but you know, you said something earlier about why I decided to share when you're someone out there that's promoting the trades and encouraging trades. You know, there's no doubt that I've looked up to what you've done and what you've done for our industry and people like this old house and find home building and have been awarded the opportunity to talk to all of you guys. So I feel as though here I am spending an hour on a podcast with you guys talking about this. The least I can do is turn around and then go share this and be like, guys, we can do this.

We just got to do this together. I think that's awesome. What do you see as the most persistent stigmas and stereotypes and myths and misperceptions that are keeping people from giving the careers your industry and honest look? Interestingly, I think it's trade by trade. As stupid as it sounds, it's like, oh, plumber? Oh, yeah, the guy that's got his ass crack hanging out. Plummer's cleavage, we prefer.

Plummer's cleavage, yes, we have deemed it that. I think that the most common is that we don't know how to price work and that no matter what we're going to tell you it's going to cost, it's always going to be more. and the reality of that is more oftentimes true. The bigger issue with that is that it usually costs more because of a number of things, because of change orders that are legit, meaning like, hey, I've changed this spec and it's more expensive.

The problem with that is that as tradespeople, a lot of us should not be business people. and we are so wrapped up in being the tradesperson that we're not appropriately communicating those things where for us where you know when someone says hey i want i'd like to change the wall to high gloss it's like no problem that's going to cost more we're like immediate where a tradesperson's like oh we can do that yeah we've done that before yeah we'll get this stuff and we'll get it oh by the way you know we're all done here's a five thousand dollar chain what's that for it's like well it's for the high gloss it's like you didn't tell me it was more money it's like you didn't know that it's like of course they didn't know that. You knew that because you're in the trade. They didn't know that

they're a client. They're a consumer. And we're not educating them. And we're not, and I think that as tradespeople, we oftentimes go into business for ourselves because we want to make more money. And we oftentimes don't make more money because we're not good business people. Right. Do you think your kids are going to follow in your footsteps? And are you going to encourage them to? Um, my wife and I are pretty, uh, we agree on the fact that we, we're not going to push anything. You know, they're young. They're six, almost seven, five, two and a half and five months. But, you know, right now it's sports and we're just throwing them in everything. And if they don't want to do it, no problem. We're not going to be that type of parent that pressure is like,

you got to do this. You got to do this. It's like, you got to try. You got to be there for your team. But if you don't want to, if this isn't for you, that's okay. I think that I'll be the same. same way with my business. And, you know, of course, there's going to be times where I'm like, do you want to come to work for me? Do you want to come to work today? You know, my little boy is obsessed with excavators and, you know, he can name every single machine. And, you know, we found out there's a place that he can go drive them around this place called Diggerland or something like that. I'm like, great, let's go. Let's get you in a little excavator. So I think I'll encourage it from a healthy perspective. But ultimately, I want my kids to grow up and do what they want.

Well, good luck with all of it, brother. Where do people go? What's your Instagram? What do they call it a handle? That's it. Is that it? Handle, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'll shamelessly plug.

Obviously, NS Builders and at Nick Schiffer, our podcast is called Modern Craftsman. So at Modern Craftsman on all the podcast apps, YouTube, things like that. Awesome. Thanks for doing this. My not so hidden agenda with all this, honestly, is just to encourage more general contrast. to take pride in their work and to share it with the world.

I'm very ambivalent about TikTok, but, you know, I've seen some pretty cool things out there that make the rounds. Yeah. And there's just, there's so much PR needed that isn't being checked in your space. So you're clearly not part of that problem. I'd love to just end with the fact that a lot of, contractors and trades people that struggle with social media specifically oftentimes struggle because they don't think that what they do is that cool. And I want to just remind anyone that's

listening to this that what you do is cool and a lot of people don't understand it. And, you know, I follow, there's a plumber on Instagram that I follow and he's very funny, but I find myself watching him put together a riser with no sound. Just sitting watching him glue the joint, slide it, clean it up. And I'm just watching it because I'm mesmerized by it, but it's because I don't do it. A lot of people don't do what we do. So just documenting what you do and sharing that ultimately could offer not only a potential client or someone to encourage the trades, but one of your peers realizing, hey, there's a tip that's going to save me an hour a day. Now I get to go home, be with my kids more. A shout out to one of the most diabolically

brilliant shows to ever air. You mentioned it. And look, I'll take a little credit. Dirty jobs move the needle in this space. Deadliest catch, too. You know, and a lot of other shows that came from it that at least gave people a look at a different way to make a buck. But nobody did it like this old house. That thing, I had a chance to appear on that show a few years ago. They helped MicroWorks raise close to $600,000 for our work ethic, Scott. program. Norm Abrams is a real deal. That whole crew, you know, what was it about that show? Obviously, you watched it as a kid. It came out of Boston, you know? What was it? What was the secret formula to that thing that kept it on the air for decades? People wanted to understand. People wanted to

know what, they don't understand how to build a house or do something. They don't do it every day. So it's interesting. When you find yourself scrolling and then you stop to watch something, it's oftentimes because it's either funny or it's something that you don't understand and you want to. And I think about this old house, I had this conversation where they were the original building industry influencers. I had a guy reach out to me. I shared a tip about how to side cedar wall shingle without putting nails through the face

of the shingle with the batten strip. This guy called me flipped out. You can't share that. That's a trade secret. Like you're, like you're, you're, you're ruining the industry. you're sharing all the secrets. This stuff is valuable. I'm like, you know this old house has been on the air for 40 years doing this? What I'm doing is not new. I'm just doing it on a different platform. Wow. When you were talking about that people want to know how something's built, it's like think back to every construction site in any city, from New York City to Santa Monica to San Francisco, Boston, wherever. They always cut holes so people can look through. They do that because people are desperate to see. For whatever reason, they're really, that's right. How the hell did they get that excavator down there?

And I always look when I walk by just because there's a window there. Of course. Yeah. See, I don't know if it's because we don't understand and we're scared of our ignorance, or if we're just curious. If we're just like, what's on the other side of the fence? It's satisfying curiosity. You're doing that on your Instagram page.

You're doing that on your podcast. I think it's important. And I'm glad you're out there, honestly. You're welcome back here anytime. You didn't hit it on the head, but it goes without saying if you're in the Boston area, you got a remodel, you got a house to build. How backed up are you guys at this point? We typically say about a year because ideally we want to plan for a year.

Going back to cost and efficiency and being able to say we'll be on time and on budget, give us a year and we'll plan this project appropriately. Nice. Awesome. Thanks, man. Yeah, thank you guys. Anytime. And Chuck, you're welcome back on.

his podcast anytime. Thank you, Mike. That's very, very nice of you. I'm sure he's going to want to get you on his podcast now. Hey, I've already done it. Happy to, if you think I can be of use. Say when. All right. I'll get you a link. I'll get my people to reach out to your people. Oh, my God. I'll be getting an email before I end this recording. This is the people. No, I'll wait until I get home. I got to get home to the kids. All right, Nick Schiffer. Thank you. All right, guys. Thank you so much. When you leave a review, which we hope that you'll do, tell us who you are. Tell us who you are.

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