The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 342: Kevin O'Connor—Apple Juice and Saltines

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

This Old House's Kevin O'Connor talks about the serendipitous non-audition audition that landed him a job on the longest-running how-to show on TV, what it was like to embed with Team Rubicon to film his new Roku show, what masculinity really looks like, and how to treat a razor wound.  

Episode number 342 of the way I heard it is called Apple Juice and Saltines. For reasons that will be made clear momentarily, Chuck, I don't want to give away too much, but I'm happy to report that the bleeding has stopped. That is good news. And did the Apple Juice and Saltines help, as our guest suggested you try to bring down the bleeding? I believe I may have misapplied both of them, but enough of that. Our guest is Kevin O'Connor. If his name rings a bell, it's because your taste in television is excellent.

You've watched this old house. It's been on for 45 years. Kevin has been hosting for 20. This is a show that's near and dear to me. The longevity is unrivaled in its category anyway. It's such a great conversation for us to have around Labor Day, Microworks will be 15 years old on Labor Day. This old house is a true love letter to really everything I've hoped to accomplish with the foundation.

And it's so gratifying, man, to be able to talk to a guy like Kevin. You'll remember they had me on this old house about five years ago. Helped us raise half a million dollars or so for our scholarship program. What a fun guy to talk to. What a great guy to talk to. We did a test yesterday and I had a great time. chatting with him. He's real nice. He like you is the same on TV and in person. That's just a fact. You know, he seems exactly like he does on the show to me. Am I wrong? You're giving me a look like,

what are you kidding me? No, I was just thinking, you know, do you tape these pre-interviews that you do? No, I never do. Why? You think I should? I don't know. I mean, if there is interesting as you always describe, I'm thinking maybe we can we can have some sort of. No, no. I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to put you out of business, Mike. I mean, come on. Pre-interviews with Chuck Klausmeyer. If you enjoy the way I heard it, wait until you hear this producer, prepare the guest. Honestly, this was just a mic test. This wasn't even a pre-interview. I knew he was going to be money, but I just wanted to make sure that all the equipment worked, and he was where he was. And by the way, before we started, he said to me, he goes, yeah, you know, I got some guys working on my bathroom. He said,

because we talked about my troubles with my bathroom in the test. And he goes, I'm going to lap you, Chuck. are going to be done in four weeks, you know. He goes, but they're supposed to be quiet. Well, of course, I heard him throughout this thing. And then he said, and I hope my gardener doesn't come while we're in the middle of it. And you're going to hear his gardener as well. Well, look, I mean, to be fair, you know, you could hear a bee fart at 100 yards. You know, you're, you listen for these kinds of things, but you are right. There is some construction going on in the background. And now that I think about it, I really can't imagine a more logical soundtrack for a conversation with a conversation with a.

host of this old house. The conversation goes where it goes. I was surprised, honestly, that Kevin shared some of the things he shared, but I'm glad he did because they're the kinds of things that I find myself in violent agreement with. Listen up for a mention of Team Rubicon. This is a foundation I'm super familiar with. I've talked to them in the past, and Kevin just did a show with them. They're on Roku right now. These are, in fact, I think I'd say it's the Cajun Navy with like a real organizational hierarchy. Yes. They're doing great stuff, and that sounds like an amazing show on Roku that you'll

want to check out. But enough of my blathering. It's apple juice and saltines for reasons that are about to be made self-evident. Right after this. Shameless plug. Long before she was Peggy Roe, my mom was Peggy Noble, daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble. It was her father, Carl, who inspired me to pitch a show called Dirty Jobs to the Discovery Channel and later start a foundation that honored

the kind of work Carl Noble did for a living, trade work, skilled labor. That foundation is called MicroWorks, and today I'm proud to tell you that we've helped thousands of people get the training they need to begin a career in the skilled trades. In fact, we'd love to help you. You can apply for a work ethic scholarship right now at microwworks.org. We've set aside $10 million for this year's applicants, thanks to a number of very effective fundraisers, including the one with my grandfather's name on the label. I refer, of course, to Noble Tennessee Whiskey, K-N-O-B-E-L, which is now available in a variety of delicious mash bills, all of which you can peruse at noblespirates.com. In fact, if you spend $100 bucks and use code Carl, C-A-R-L, you'll get one tube of orange bitter-infused sugar cubes for free.

That's code Carl with a C to get nine sugar cubes, ingeniously engineered to make nine perfect old-fashions every time. It's my favorite way to support MicroWorks and my favorite whiskey to sip responsibly after a long day of interviewing people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirits.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-P-E-L-Pirits.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. Where do you get you? It's right here, and it finally stopped.

It's the fold, right, just above the lip and on the side of the nostril. I felt it when I did it. I was in the shower, and then I looked down and just literally, like in Psycho. There was so much blood going down the drain, I thought, oh, I better hurry up. I'd hate to pass out in the shower. This isn't your way of trying to garner

sympathy for showing up and actually being here, is it because I'm the guest, pal? Well, look, if I've learned anything from watching your show is that you don't know the difference between a guest and a host and you guys have smeared all that together in such a wonderful

way, but first things first, have you cut yourself? shaving prior to impersonating a host and at any point in your long and storied career? Very infrequently, because I only have to shave every other week, thanks to the beautiful baby skin. So the chances of it happening are fewer and far between. But there was an instance when I had to shave during the day between scenes because we were cutting from one episode to the other, and they had a little bit of stubble, six-week stubble in one episode, and I had to take it off and I was on the back of a pickup truck going at it without a mirror and I nicked myself.

But like you, I showed up for the job. Of course. I pressed on and filmed anyway. What's a pint of blood between friends? Right. Exactly. Apple juice and saltines, as my mother said, the nurse who always wanted to make sure that any time we lost blood that we were getting our sugar and I don't know what the saltines

provide. Yeah. I mean, just so the listeners understand. I texted Chuck. minute ago, and I said, look, I'm running a little late because I'm bleeding to death. Tell Kevin to please stand by, and Kevin apparently said apple juice and saltines. Now, I rubbed both of them on the wound, but it didn't do anything. It did nothing. That's not right. Drink one, eat the other. The apple juice replenishes some of the sugars or whatever, and the saltine probably comes out

as a coagulence because it's mostly sawdust consistency. It also serves as last rights communion if the cut is deep enough. So. Good point. Thank you. It was a speech somewhere. I don't remember where. And I was shaving in the hotel, and I cut myself, same way. Right down there, right on the jaw line, a weird place to cut it. But, you know, a dull blade, as I'm sure you've learned, is much more hazardous than a sharp one. But it was a good one.

And I had the toilet paper on there, and an hour later, it was still bleeding. I went on stage with toilet paper stuck on my face. And to your earlier point, yes, it garners sympathy. And clearly it gives you something to talk about for five minutes. And people are hanging on every word. It's just, you know, it's odd to see a be-less celebrity slowly bleed out in front of you. People enjoy it. How many people were in your shower to see that?

You had to make it weird. Oh, I think it was there already. I think Chuck was just completing the circle. when your producer says, hang on, he's texting me from the shower and he's bleeding out, it got weird fast. You know, it's funny. You called him my producer. That's hysterical.

Did you put air quotes on that? Or how does that work? I shall call him my producer. Kevin O'Connor, ladies and gentlemen, he is technically, according to the credits, he's the host of this old house. But I don't

really think you all. with respect. We've met only once before when I was invited on to your program. And I don't know if I told you this to your face or not or maybe sometime between takes, but there are a couple rules of hosting that I think matter a lot in this day and age. And one of them is this idea that the traditional host is dead. That guy doesn't matter anymore. It seems to me that part of what this old house understood from the, from the very beginning was this idea that you could have experts on camera interacting with, with an avatar of sorts or a cipher, right? Which is how I always try to look at myself on dirty jobs. I've never seen anybody else do it to that extent other

than you. So I don't know if I'm offering congratulations or sympathy, but, you know, how do you think about yourself in your role on that show. Very fondly. Always when I think of myself. I'm very fond. There I am again. I stand proudly next to the title of host for one primary reason on our show. Our cast are professional contractors. And I think it's the thing that distinguishes us, has always distinguished us from the very beginning 45 years ago to today in comparison to the other shows that are out there. The gentlemen and now gentle women who we work with all have their professional contracting businesses. And it's actually their primary business. The television is sort of an afterthought. And I'm the only one on the crew who doesn't come from a professional contracting

background. And so I don't have a problem with that. I'm thrilled and honored to be next to those people, but I do make sure that I continue to make that distinction with folks. Because on our show, the people who get to give advice, the people who get to teach are professionals. And we want to respect that. And so I stay in the question asking mode all of the time. Even when I know something, my rule of thumb is if you're asking a question and it can be answered by Kevin O'Connor or Tom Silva, let Tommy Silva answer the question. Always. So I stay in the host. I stay in my lane deliberately, and I'm happy to do it, and I think it's respectful of the people who I work for. Well, that's what I was trying to say. It was a compliment, but your lane is not that of a traditional host, because you're old enough to remember, and so am I. There was a time in cable and broadcast that I remember is sort of the age of authority, when the job of a host was to sound like this. and jam his brain full of useful information that would allow him to create the illusion of competence, right? That's kind of what the construct is, but this old house was right on the tip of the spear that turned that upside down and let experts be experts,

but brought somebody in to essentially be the viewer. And again, I mean this is a compliment. You're not a TV guy. You didn't crawl out of the primordial miasma that I did. I don't even think you auditioned for this gig, did you? I did not. And to the same thing that I was saying earlier, neither did any of the other folks who were on the show.

None of them ever sought out of television career. And I can tell you each of their stories and how they sort of came about. But I stumbled into it just like them where a real world situation happened to put me in front of a producer-director who started this, entire genre. And he just had a keen eye and said, that's something I want right there. I was a banker. I wasn't looking for it. And I, if someone had said, do you want a television gig, I'd be like,

no, thank you. I would prefer not to get into that. What did you call it? Primordial something. Myasma, I believe. Myasma, yeah. I'll take your word for it. Yeah, no, I was never looking for that at all. And I think, I like to think that had anyone else asked other than this old house, the thing that I watched as a child and sort of aspired to and fought my college roommates for the clicker so they could turn off the sports and turn on this old house. If anyone else had asked, I would have said, you're crazy, no thank you. But it was these guys and they asked and I said yes. So I stumbled into it. I do want to hear their stories. And I obviously I want to hear your story. But the guy you mentioned in passing, I forget his name, but he he had the vision for this. What was his name?

Russ Morash. We call him the father of how to television. And yes, I think absolutely. Absolutely. It was his vision that started this old house, but also Julia Child and the French chef. That was one of his creations, the Victory Garden, which you may or may not remember on to ask this old house. And then, of course, the New Yankee Workshop with our first master carpenter, Norm Abram. His desire and curiosity to learn from the people who knew what they were doing allowed him to put all of the experts, whether it be Julia as a cook or a gardener or Norm as a carpenter, put them front and center and let them as the professionals to talk about their craft and their trade. And that was his magic. And he fought that tooth and nail from the day he started doing this to say, nope, it's the experts who speak. And if you think about the job of a host in our situation, which is the guy who asks these contractor questions because the audience can't, you know, he saw me running around the job site asking Tommy Silva questions when they happened to be filming at my house. And he's like, okay, he's just dumb enough to.

ask how to hammer a nail, and that's what we want. We want someone to ask Tommy how to do it the right way or ask Roger how to do it the right way. Such a fine line between stupidity and curiosity. Yeah. Honestly, he was a pretty good carpenter. He is a pretty good carpenter. Russ, that is. So I'll get into one of the origin stories. He was at his house and the architect that expects something to do. And the carpenter had shown up and was doing some work. Russ was paying attention and was taken by the small size of his scrap pile, sort of just looked at the little tiny pieces that were left over. Nothing had gone to waste.

And the carpenter who was making such a small scrap pile was Norm Abram. And he said, that guy really knows what he's doing. It was working on Russ's house, working on a project for him. 175-76 75-76 or 77 would have been a year that he had been doing his project for Norm and then when Russ decided to put a show on PBS

the local Boston PBS station that was 1979 and he knew who he had to call up and see if he would do the project for us and so he found a host Bob Vila who was a developer but he was smart enough to say Bob doesn't get to swing a hammer

I need a guy who knows how to swing a hammer and have a small scrap pile and so he called up Norm and said would you be the one who would develop and work on this house while Bob tells us about it? And it was that first episode that Russ saw and said, hang on a second, strap a microphone on Mr. Abram. And let's let him talk as well. And we were off to the races with that format. So the longest running TV show that I can think of began because a guy named Russ saw a scrap pile that was.

suspiciously small. Yes. Not to belabor the point, but I'm just always interested in making sure people understand the state of play in 1979 with regard to what passed as content on television. I mean, today it's easy. You know, you look at the DIY channel. You look at HGTV. You have entire networks, entire networks that basically exist.

because Norm Abram had a small scrap pile. And, you know, to have the presence of mine to see that and to challenge the model, I mean, we were kids in 79. I mean, at least I was. I don't even know. How old are you? 55. So born in 68.

Yeah, 55. So when did you find this old house? And when did you realize it was resonating with you? in a way that other TV shows didn't? Well, I found it as a kid. I probably saw the first season or the second season. I was born in 68, so I was 11, 10 years old, 11 years old when it first came on and 12, 13 thereafter. My dad is in construction.

He's a civil engineer and built buildings and I've got a brother in it as well. And that's what we did when we were kids. We built tree houses with the wood that dad brought home and go carts and got baby carriage, wheels on junk night so that they'd roll down the hill. So we enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. And when a television show showed up on one of only four networks, if you recall, right, there was really only four networks to watch.

Yeah. And other than the Dukes of Hazard, you know, my parents were like, only watch PBS. I will say that dad, let us watch Wonder Woman. And I do suspect they had ulterior motives. So between Daisy Duke and Linda Carter? Good memory. Yeah. Where you fall. Both are seared into my retina. Daisy for me, I think. I'm more of a country girl kind of guy.

But, yeah, I think you mean a country guy kind of girl. No, country girl kind of. No, you're right the first time. Sorry, these are confusing times, Kevin. Yeah. Anyway, so that's how I found it. I think I just, you know, it was one of the things that was on. And if you had a hankering for working with your hands, it was magic. I mean, to your point, right, what was on? news, sports certainly, but everyone was in a tie and authority figures and sort of it was delivered and packaged and then there was studio comedy or what have you to see a job site, like outside a real job site with a guy up on scaffolding that was bending in the middle fixing corbels on a rotted out soffet. You're like, what am I looking at here? How is this even possible?

And I can tell you stories that they've told me about how difficult it was to film at a time when everything was done in the studio. We can get into that if you want. But regardless, it was new and it was fresh. And for a young kid with a bunch of brothers and a father in construction, it was the equivalent of football in my household. You know what? I mean, I hope it's not too inside baseball for people, but I do want to hear about it. And the reason is it's not a perfectly straight line, but there's a line between this old house and dirty jobs, right? So I'm super interested because I think in the column of things that we share, aside from our attitude of what a host ought to do in a format like that, is this understanding that the viewer gets to see the beginning and the middle and the end of a thing.

They get to see a mess turned into something good, right? And those two shows have a lot in common in that way. But from a production standpoint, and again, this is a compliment. There's a lot of charm in this old house that's rooted in the fact that you shoot it. It's like an homage to good local television. Like you can shoot that show on one camera. It's cutaways. It's stopping.

It's starting. It's inserts. So like it's all that stuff, which is very, very traditional. Whereas on dirty jobs, we had a behind-the-scenes camera that essentially. eventually became camera A. And we showed all of the warts and the mistakes from a production standpoint. So you guys are super authentic and super honest

with the finished product, but you produce it in a pretty traditional way. And I wonder as a fake host, if you enjoy that. Duh do do do do do do do. Dumb. Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my

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So we still shoot with one camera, believe it or not, after all these years. Unbelievable. One camera. Chuck. Do you know how unbelievable that is? I do. That's ridiculous.

Yeah, it is. And that's a shout out to Dino. My man, a cameraman, has been doing it with me longer than I've been a host, but I've been doing it forever. But I'll share two stories with you.

I love it to answer your question. I absolutely love it. And when we shoot with two or three, it drives me crazy because that's when I start, like I feel like I'm making television. I'm like, all right, I went out.

I went out of this ridiculousness. This is just garbage. Let's just let it go. So as I mentioned, Russ Morash, the father of all this stuff, aside from Julia Child and us and New Yankee Workshop, the Victory Garden, which was, you know, how to garden.

The name came from World War II when everyone had to set up a victory garden in their backyard to raise some extra vegetables to support the troops. So the WGBH Studio with big cameras on those wheelie tripods and two handles that you had to sort of move around and everything was connected by cables, they needed to shoot outside because that's typically where vegetables do better. they rolled the cameras out the back door of the studio through the parking lot and when the wire got tight and couldn't go any further, Russ said, all right, build a garden here.

And he was pointing to the parking lot. And they built the first victory garden there because that's as far as the cable would allow them to go. And that was where they did the victory garden. And so that was sort of just that ingenuity of like, this is what we're going to do. And people were looking at it and like he was creating. Don't take a camera outside. You can't do that. And then I'll share one other with you because it's one of my favorite and one of the reasons why I have a lot of respect for Bob Vila, who is our original host. There is a scene in season two where Bob approaches the house via helicopter. Okay. This is 1980. And to get to shot up high, the cameraman is in a giant mechanical man lift with the cables running down 50 feet from the basket to the ground,

off to a bread truck that's been converted into a little production truck. And as the camera descends, the bucket comes down with the helicopter. Excuse me, as the helicopter descends, the bucket comes down. The camera rides down as the helicopter descends. Bob Vila exits the helicopter, walks on the lawn. The cameraman exits the man lift, walks on the lawn, and then Bob manages to circumnavigate the house with the cameraman in tow, and they do this eight-minute content. scene from helicopter around the house, no cuts. And it's a remarkable thing. And, you know, I loved

doing six-minute scenes with no cuts because it was born of Russ's ingenuity, but also back then, you may recall, cuts were cuts, cutting tape, you know, physical film and putting them back together again. And he said, the hell of this, this is tedious. So he fired the second cameraman. And so let's do one continuous take, fewer cuts. I'll get through this better and I'll get home to my wife and have some dinner. I love it. Chuck, what do I say about cutting? If you're cutting, you're cheating or you're lying. Thank you. Mike, I didn't know this about you, but this makes me love you even more, right? I mean, just stay in the scene. Yeah. Well, look, there are two ways to do it. And this is, I mean, it's a classic cat-skitting conversation. You guys force yourself to stay in the scene

by shooting with one camera. I forced discovery to stay in the scene by shooting with a behind-the-scenes camera. So we got the three or four cameras that the production company and the network wanted. We went ahead and committed television in a way that was, you know, traditional and expected in 2003.

What we did different was the truth cam. A single camera, always wide, documenting the whole thing. And once I started talking to that camera, while the scene was cut, the viewer was suddenly allowed to see the making of the sausage. And that actually, that saved my career. It allowed the show to move forward without second takes, right? And so I think the thing that this old house did better than anyone was transition from that air of authority into the era of. of authenticity without giving up expert advice. I just think that's an extraordinary accomplishment

and more people ought to know that Russ was responsible for it. Why did you do it, Mike? Why did you feel, did you just happen upon it or did you knowingly say, we need some truth brought into this? Because I did it because that's what I was taught to do by the person who invented it. I wasn't thinking about it until years later. But was it a conscious decision on your part? Yeah, it was. And it wasn't about me, really. I had done enough TV at that point to know when I felt like I was lying, and I felt like I was lying all of the time at that point. And honestly, I don't like the industry. I don't really enjoy making television in a traditional way, Dirty Jobs. Dirty Jobs is a very personal show, right? And it was for my pop, and I just wanted it

to feel different. But the main reason was because I... You know, we were featuring people who had never been on TV before who were nervous, right? You show up with, you know, six people. Everybody's armed, you know, with a camera or some sort of device. They're all looking at you. They're all pointing it at you. And to get a plumber or a pipe fitter or an HVAC guy or a skull cleaner or a bridge builder, it didn't matter, to get those people to be as comfortable as they would normally be on the job.

I had to abuse my crew. And the best way to abuse the crew is to let that person see me talking to a camera that never stopped, that included the whole production. And once that happened, that was the only way I could think of to bring the people we were featuring truly into the moment and separate them from the business of making a show. It took a while to figure out,

but once we cracked the code, we were on 20 years. It's probably much more commonplace these days, and my kids who are young probably don't appreciate it. But, again, to your point, people are not comfortable on television. And we have to do it all the time, too. We have to make somebody a star of the show for the day for an hour and settle them down. It's very, very intimidating to most adults.

And I have two jobs. Basically, it is to pull out the great information from Tommy Silva, or Jen Nauta or Mark McCullough and say, all right, that's great. A little bit of English would help right now, a little bit of English. And then my second job is to set at ease the guest who's going to be on just once in their life to tell us a very specialized thing,

just to settle them down, because armed is the right word. They are outmatched when we show up. That's right. We were treating plumbers like Access Hollywood would treat Brad Pitt. And it takes a minute. It's back to what we were saying before, Like production, there is no show without production,

but production is also the enemy of authenticity. Yes. You know, if you're doing take two, well, then, you know, you're performing. There's only one non-performance, right? It's the first take. Right. And so you've been doing this how long now? Is it 20 years?

Yes, it is 20. And just so I'm clear, this old house has been on the air since 79, so do the math? 45. 45. We just started our 45th season, 45 years. Is there anyone else that comes close at this point? The Simpsons, in terms of episodes, maybe, but in terms of time, what else is there? Meet the Press, 75 years. I looked it up.

I fact-checked you when you said the longest running, and I was like, I don't think so, but... Yeah. Yeah, but Mehta Press doesn't build anything. No. No. That's true. That's true. That's what we put out there.

Yeah. We just got, this is a humble brag, but we just got the show, I should say. just received a lifetime achievement award from the Emmys. And it's only the third time that a show has received that. And they put us in the company of 60 Minutes in Sesame Street. So those are the other two that I think of in terms of our time frame, you know, like had been on that long or whatever. So, yeah, up against Dan Rather and Big Bird, I guess, or something like that.

But yeah, there's not many. Have you been on Sesame Street yet? Not yet. Have you? Yeah. Of course you have. I'm jealous. I know.

Guess who he talked to? Kermit? No. Oh, yeah, the guy in the garbage came. What am I talking about? Oscar. Oscar the Grouch. I can't even believe I didn't say Oscar right out of the, oh my God.

Yeah. So I got one for you, Mike. How about this? Oscar played by Carol Spinney. Correct. I was in an airport in Ireland waiting in line, and I heard this, you know, older baritone voice say, hello, Kevin? And I turn, and there's a gentleman who I don't have no idea who he is.

And he introduces himself. and it's Carol Spinney, who I have the fortunate advantage of him recognizing me because I guess he's watched other PBS shows, but I have no idea who he is because I've only seen him in costume or heard his voice. But he was very kind to introduce himself. He was over there.

Turns out he's a fantastic illustrator, was. He's passed since. He had gone to the Irish Open and was illustrating different holes. We got talking. I said, oh, this is terrific. My kids are going to be through. thrilled. I'm thrilled. I can't believe I'm talking to the person who's Big Bird, Oscar, all this stuff. He

whips out a drawing that he had done of Oscar in a garbage can on one of the famous holes of whatever golf course they just played the open on and signs it to my kids and hands it to me and says, please give this to your children. Wow. Just a prince of a man, an absolute gentleman, and just I was flabbergasted that such a thing could possibly happen. It's not the same as being on Sesame Street, but it was very enjoyable. It was some high cotton, you know, and I mean, again, And it's like PBS. I grew up with all that stuff. It was so surreal.

They were up in like, I think, Astoria in Queens. I went up there with one of the producers at Discovery, who was a huge fan. I mean, she geeked out so hard. It was they built a whole dirty job street. Did a whole segment. I wind up outside the garbage can. And then, look, I'm not proud of this, but it happened. The single most inappropriate moment ever on Sesame Street.

that actually aired involved me and Oscar. And it slipped past the sensor. I'll just tell you, because I know you're a sport, but this is so ridiculous, right? I'm outside the garbage can counting cheese, pieces of stinky cheese. Oscar appears. We engage in some witty repartee.

He starts, you know, giving me a hard time, and I kind of give it back. So now I'm counting like rotten radishes and old, like refuse, just pile. heads of lettuce and everything else. And then he does something that has never been done before on Sesame Street. Oscar the Grouch invites me into the garbage can. Oh, okay.

Heavens. So I say, well, well, Oscar, I would love to join you in the garbage can. What do I do? Just climb over the lid. And he said, no, no, come around. Come in the back door. And without missing a beat, stupidly, I said, oh, I've always wanted to try the back door.

And so they dissolve in the final cut. I actually reference that on Sesame Street. I was sure they would cut it out. I just figured we were riffing just a couple of dudes making it inappropriate. It made it in. And so... When you said you were just riffing with a couple of dudes, you know he's a Muppet, correct?

A little fuzzy bear. Is that what the kids call it, riffing? Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, Sesame Street has a script. of sorts, right? And I didn't want to really do that, but I didn't want to be difficult either. So we were kind of in and out of the suggested language.

But he invites me into the garbage can out of the blue. And so we do the cut, and then I pop up, and I'm in the garbage can with Oscar, and we continue our thing. Like I said, I'm not saying I'm proud of it, Kevin. It just happened. It's a thing that happened. I am officially envious.

That would be talk about Highcott and that would be something else. Anyhow, here's a compliment. Me coming onto your set four or five years ago was an absolute kick. It was up there. It really, really was because, again, it's a short list of shows that I grew up with too. Sesame Street obviously is there, but this old house was there too. I was watching in 1979 and to be there with those dudes with Richard and to see. see you and of course, Norm. I mean, he's the granddaddy of all of it. Thank you for having me,

and thank you also for doing what you did. You know, you guys raised over half a million dollars for the MicroWorks Foundation. And, you know, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you is we're 15 years old on Labor Day, and I assume you still give a damn. In fact, I'm sure you care deeply about the skills gap and the mess right now in trades. And how is all that impacting your show and what's it look like from where you sit right now? We're still at it. Our initiative is called Generation Next. It's a shadow of sort of what you've been able to do.

But we continue to bring apprentices on to the crew and to showcase them. So we're in a messaging mode more so than a fundraising and scholarship mode. But the messaging is important. We take time out of every series to grab a young child, young kid or two and interview them, why are you doing it? We let them express what gets them excited about it, the money they can make, the solid wages. We continue to visit other programs around the country that do this. Williamson College of the Trade is my latest favorites, which you can talk about if we want. They're amazing. Amazing.

Yeah. You're familiar with these guys? Oh, yeah. Oh, it's unbelievable. It's, yeah. I had the pleasure of taking the crew down there and meeting the President Michael Rounds and the kids and spent a couple of days profiling the school, which is just to think that there is an institution. Well, you know this, but let me for the audience's sake, just give the two seconds. You know, there's an institution that will train 250 or so young men with a three years associate degree and a trade, whether it's carpentry, masonry, electrical, power. power plant, machine tooling, landscape construction, what have you.

That they'll do it tuition free, room and board, tuition free. And at the end of their three years, in March they had a job fair, 75 or so seniors, 160 plus companies come to recruit. And they pay for the privilege to come to recruit these young men to their companies. So think about that. There are 90-some-odd companies who are not going to get a candidate. 160 some odd companies looking for 75 students. And they're paying for the privilege for a one and two chance of being able to recruit one of these kids. So you get a three years associate degree,

you get trained in a profession, you walk out of their debt-free with five to 10 good job offers. This place exists? How is it possible that this place exists? And why aren't there 30 of them across the country? There are a couple, but they're not many. I was around the same time, I think you were there. I was over at the College of the the Ozarks, otherwise known as hard work you. Same plan, right? People graduate there with no debt. They work, you know, some work on the dairy, some work in a printing press. It's like a shop class on steroids. Yeah. It's amazing. And man, have they moved the needle? Speaking of shop, as you think about this problem, the skills gap, the 11 million open jobs, college debt and so forth. What do you think? What impact did removing shop class from high schools

have on all of that? I think it had a lot, although I don't think it is singular. I hear this a lot from Tommy, from Norm, you know, they talk about it because they grew up going to shop class and none of them went on to college. Norm went, didn't finish, but none of my brothers who were on the show, went to college, Tom, Richard, Roger, Norm, these guys. I shouldn't say that. Roger did go to college. But for them, high school was their education, and then they went out and started working. So you hear that shop class being removed from the high schools was a big blow. It is indicative of other things going on, though, in my opinion, at least. And I think it's complicated, and I'm almost reluctant to say it, but I think it's tied up with masculinity and a boy problem,

if you will, within the schools. You know, if you look at sort of the evolution of schooling in America, it has gone from one that had a lot of male teachers. I think in the 70s, half or more than half of high school teachers were men. And these days, 75% of teachers are women. And that's not inherently a bad thing necessarily. But if you want role models, you know, who are young men looking to. There's a different message that you get from an older man who's successful and talks about, you know, things that are more masculine. And so there's this imbalance. And I think removing shop class and having your teachers be predominantly female, everyone in Massachusetts, for example, you have to have a master's degree to be a licensed teacher. So now your role models

are people who have got undergraduate degrees and higher education master's degrees. Are they the people who are going to look favorably on working with your hands or stopping your professional education at high school? Probably not. And I don't think it's malicious or there's any ill intent, but we are who we are and we share our values with people. And so there's this imbalance. And I think shot class is just part of that. I think it's part of a much bigger thing. And coincidentally, I'm starting to rant. I shouldn't, but I don't think that. You know what? I'm sick of ranting. You rant. Honestly, you're in.

I don't think that correlation is causation, but when you look at, you know, that masculinity has become toxic, for example, or that educational role models tend to be female, or they all have higher education degrees or master's degrees, and you realize that shop has been removed. And many of the careers or jobs that you and I talk about where it's manual labor, it's all very masculine labor. or for worse. It is just as what it is. The vast majority of plumbers are male. The vast, the majority of nurses are female. It's changing a little bit. But you get my point. Most of these careers that you and I talk about are fulfilled by men. They have been put aside, downgraded. They have been damaged in terms of the reputation. And then if you look at the health of young men, I'd say it's not great. You know, they struggle more than women. They graduate in lower numbers. They go on to college in lower numbers. They're the victims of depression and suicide

and incarceration in higher numbers. And to me, it's like there's got to be some sort of a connection between those things. When we've said traditional masculine jobs careers are secondary, they're no good. And then we're surprised when young men come out of high school or college lost and confused. And then we suffer the ill effects of those things. And I think shop class is just one of those things. That's the end of my rant. I won't go there. It's any further. But there's something there in my mind that's connected. And I think if we work to repair that, we'll do a lot to repair young men and solve some of these problems. I looked at my dad, who was a contractor. He was an engineer, granted, but he worked on a job site and his boots were muddy, and he came home. And we had a wonderful

childhood, but we had bumps and bruises. And I saw a man who built skyscrapers and kept our family together with great skill. And that was a role model. And I think it drove part of my interest in construction, but it also gave me a very confident masculine stance. And I hope that we get more of that our young people and tell them that that stuff is okay. Being a plumber is more than okay. Amen. You know, you kind of, I mean, do you guys technically still work for PBS at this point? Or have you been, where are you? Well, we are, no. We're not owned by PBS like we used to back in the day. We're owned by Roku these days and before them some other corporations. But we are distributed first and foremost on PBS.

And so our commitment to PBS, if not a legal connection, is a very solid connection. The show airs first on PBS and has continuously since 1979. I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company. But he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being. deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic, and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent meat company that deals directly

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On a foreign ranch, get good ranchers now. E-Ha! And you're still allowed to say everything you just said? That's awesome? I don't know. Well, you're going to find out, brother. No one listens to your podcast, though, Mike. This isn't going.

It isn't going anywhere, is it? We'll find out. So look, I love that rant, and I find myself in violent agreement with it. I think you're right. causation and correlation are very different things. And I think that the skills gap and, you know, the cost of college and all of these things that are typically talked about as problems are really symptoms of something bigger. And I've always posited that that bigger thing is our collective relationship with the ever-changing definition of a good job, right? Whatever that means.

But what you've just said is maybe there's an even like a 40,000 foot view that says, wait, if we're confused about the color of collars, and if we're confused about what a healthy workforce looks like, and if we're confused about the honor of a muddy boots architect or engineer like your pop, right? Maybe these things are the result of a larger confusion around traditional roles. and so, okay, I'll buy that. You know, Chuck and I talk a lot on this podcast about a teacher we had in the late 70s, 1980, in high school, who was like the definition of masculinity. Fred King was wildly inappropriate. He was a music teacher. First and foremost, he was a man. And he challenged all of his students in ways that I believe would get him immediately.

fired today. And yet, all these years later, you know, how often do we look back at our, at those years and say, man, the impact of that man on so many kids as a teacher, it's just impossible to overstate it, you know? So that's me agreeing. It's the optics of the male-female thing. It's the optics of removing shop class, never mind all that comes with. the fact that a whole generation of kids couldn't walk down the hall and peek through the door to see a wood shop or a metal shop or an auto shop. Like, it's just gone. That has to have some sort of unintended consequence, I think. I have two stories. I'll make them short if you'll allow me. I've got a buddy who's a general contractor. It's extremely good. Johnny, and he tells a story,

I may get some of the facts, the specifics wrong, but directionally I'm correct. Well, you've been canceled already, so it doesn't matter. Say whatever you want. I knew it was going to happen. How did he get through 20 years without? He is, I believe, dating his now wife, and they're over to the house at dinner, and the future parents-in-laws are there, and a couple other siblings have their respective boyfriends or girlfriends or spouses with him. I'm not sure.

He is the builder, and the other two gentlemen there, I believe, are a person. professional lawyer doctor, let's call it, whatever they were. And all of the attention from the parents who are checking out the suitors of their kids are fawning over the other professionals. And Johnny, the builder, is feeling like, I'm chopped liver. I don't have any seat at this table. What do I have to do is I'm trying to win this mate right here to impress the parents? And he can't do it because of the job he has. And so if you think about how that weighs on a young man's perspective and the decisions they make, they see it, we see it, these kids see everything, I've got kids, they see everything, and figure it out.

That is going to weigh on what we choose as a profession because of all these external signals about what is respectable, dignified, you know, potentially lucrative, all these types of things. And so that is out there. And the other story is I've got three kids, two are boys, they go to the public middle school, high school, down the hall, excuse me, down the street, and not that long ago, one of them, I can't even remember which vagrant son of mine did it, the one in high school, the one in middle school. But they came home and they had detention that day, and I said, what happened? Big long story, and the headline from my son was, but it's all BS because the teacher just said, all the boys go to the principal's office.

So whatever was going on, the solution was, all of you knucklehead boys are a problem. Just get out of here and go to the principal's office. And when they got there, the principal was like, well, what do I do with this? I've got 13 boy, you know. And I had the conversation with the principal at another time. I said, listen, you got a boy problem. You know, when the solution by a teacher is just send all the boys away, then you've got somebody who doesn't understand boys because they're a pain in the butt,

but they are who they are. And the solution can't be stick them in a corner or detain them or move them away. And so those are the two things where I just say those external forces, I just think have to have an effect on what's going on with why some, you know, young men are struggling because of what we've done to what the avenues that are open to them and that the naturally would pursue seem to have been degraded by us collectively. So what do you think about those avenues that still exist? The Boy Scouts was very useful for me. I mean, it was a somewhat different organization than it is today. It was not a safe space.

I'll tell you that. You know, there were boxing rings and I learned to shoot in the Boy Scouts. Yeah, I mean, there's firearms training and so forth. But Future Farmers of America, Skills USA, the 4-H club, organizations that still ask young men and women to take an oath, to make a pledge, to, you know, those kinds of challenges that don't really seem to exist at all in our public school system. Did you have any experience with those in Rhodes? my father was a scoutmaster troop 19 my brothers were all boy scouts i was a cub scout by the time i got to the boy scout age troop 19 was one of those troops that got split up and moved because they were reorganizing and my dad had enough doing it so i didn't actually continue on with boy scouts but i grew up with it because my brothers were older and i saw it and it was fantastic you know it's the thing that allowed us

to light things on fire and go camping and be ourselves and get all that sort of stuff out and it was terrific. I also went to an all-boys high school and had that single-sex environment where we had lots of mentors who knew exactly, you know, how our brains worked and what we needed. And we had rules, which was, you're going to play a sport. I can remember I played baseball and soccer in high school. And I can remember when the headmaster saw me in the hallway one day and he said, hey, you're a couple minutes late for practice. And it wasn't baseball. or soccer season. And I said, I think you're mistaken. And he says, I'm not. The wrestling room is just upstairs. And that day, I was a wrestler, which I had no desire to be. But he was given permission

by the system to put his hands on my collar and throw me into a wrestling room and say, you're going to wrestle for a season or two, whether you like it or not. And I didn't like it. But I didn't dare leave. And I learned just gobs and gobs of stuff from that experience, which was, I didn't die. I didn't get hurt. I did something that I didn't want to do, and I stuck with it until they said you can leave, and I was able to take that with me.

I have used that and experiences like that so many times and navigate my way through life, that ability to do things you don't want to do, or just to realize that when you're asked to do something, chances are it's not going to kill you. Were you good at it? Wrestling? I was terrible at it, and this was the most frustrating thing.

I was 133 pounds, and they said, you're going to wrestle 127 or something ridiculous like that. And so I went on a diet eating ice cubes. I'm like, what am I going to lose? My hair? If I shed the freckles, I might lose a pound or two. But other than that, there's nowhere to go. So I went on this weight loss for Mr. D, and we worked out five, six, seven days a week,

and then I'd go to the wrestling matches, and I was pinned within 30 seconds. And I was like a week's worth of work and a tummy ache, and 30 seconds, I'm humiliating. it in front of everyone. I hated it. But you did it. But the headmaster said you'll do it and Mr. D said, they'll do it. And the entire time I was there, I realized. I knew what was going on. He wasn't trying to make me a good wrestler. He was trying to make me a good person. And that was fine with me. So, yeah, I mean, I've been exposed to that stuff all of the time. I try to expose my kids to it. I wait for the speed bumps in their lives. I wait for them. I say thank you. So long as they're not deadly or dangerous. But I wait for the bad shit to happen because that's when I

grab them by the collar and say, there you go. Here's the moment. And now I'm starting to sound like an old man, but we have sanitized much of our system from those speed bumps. We've tried to eliminate all of them so that it's easier or better or more sensitive or what have you. And they're coming. They're coming. So if you don't get them early, you're not going to know how to navigate them when you're older. I want to stop ranting. How do we turn this boat around? All right. So I do think the pendulum is swinging back. And if we can talk about the skills, for a second. I do think your message has gotten through to a lot of people. And I think we are changing the valuation of these things. I think it is, I listen to people who talk about masculinity.

Those thoughts aren't all my own. You know, those are things that I've heard and observed. I'm seeing, you know, statistics where college enrollment is down over the last decade, you know, by 15 percent or so, and apprenticeships are up. So I do think it's turning. And I think it's part of the dialogue. And I think we're realizing that stuff. I don't know the answer, Chuck, in terms of how we turn it around, but I do think that performing, personally in our lives in such a way, is important to continue to sort of act in a certain way

and vocalize certain things is very important. These discussions are important, but I do it three at a time. I got three kids, I do it three at a time. I'm trying to figure out my three. The book, I want to write and have started many times but can't seem to finish. Seven inappropriate titles just jumped into my head.

And I'm not going to say one of them. Please, tell me what the book is. Well, I'll just tell you, like the working title could be the dirty truth, or it might be lessons from the dirt. Because after 350 dirty jobs, I realized a lot of what I thought I knew about a thing, sometimes a specific vocation, but oftentimes, you know, something broader, more philosophical, was wrong. Or at least there was an alternative theory, right? there's an alternative take on passion vis-a-vis following it. There's an alternative take on the primacy of experts and teamwork and efficiency versus effectiveness and innovation versus imitation.

There's always a lesson that I can find that I actually learned many times on TV because our behind-the-scenes camera was always rolling. So there was always a moment of enlightenment in so many of those shows. Have you had that as an avatar, as a host? What have you learned in the course of working on this old house that could wind up in whatever untitled book you're destined to write? I have learned how to spot, I don't want to call it BS, because that sort of is a little bit pejorative, but I have learned how to spot when people are speaking in an attempt to fool you.

and not to pick your pocket, but because all of a sudden they're insecure that they don't know everything they need to know. And so they start going too fast. And it happens a lot in construction with, you know, people who are supposed to be specialists. You know, you talk to pick a trade or pick an expert. And they get just to beyond what they're comfortable with, but they keep going another step or two. And then all of a sudden I'm like, whoa, wait, hang on a second. Does that actually make sense? And so it's a skill that I've learned because we have to produce the show. As you say, there is no show without production. And it's critical that we provide good information.

Do no harm, right? Our Hippocratic oath is to make sure that we don't have our professionals talk about things that they don't know about or give bad information. And everyone on our crew, production-wise and construction-wise, is empowered to stop anyone when we hear bullshit. To say, no bad advice. No advice is better. That is a powerful skill, and it requires listening, which is key. A lot of us don't know how to do it. I didn't for a while.

But it also requires a voice, because you have to step up and you have to kindly but sternly say to somebody, hang on, let me challenge you here on that one. Who taught you how to listen? That's a good question. Probably my parents, because there were seven of us, and they needed us. They needed us all to shut up because there were too many kids talking in a house full of seven kids. Teachers, for sure, that headmaster and some of the people who I consider mentors. But yeah, definitely my parents.

Listening is more powerful than speaking, absolutely. I think those are the folks. But anyway, that's what I've learned. I would have put in my book. Okay, so, I mean, look, not to put you on the couch. It's so interesting to me to both know and understand that, listening is more powerful than talking, but to also be charged with talking. I mean, you are the host.

You've got to keep this thing on its legs. I just always find it interesting. Lessons can be learned anywhere, you know, in the sewer behind a microphone while you're hosting a show. And I just really, like, when I look at Richard, the stuff he can do with a toilet, look at Norm, look at all those guys, you know. Yeah, I guess you're right. you'd better listen more than talk when you're surrounded by people who walk the walk.

He and I, we work great together. We talk about what we're going to talk about before we talk about it. And he's got 10 things he wants to get out. And then we get going. And he's got the high wire act. He has to stay on the wire and remember what those 10 things are. My job is to listen to him talk. And when he goes from 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, I will find an appropriate time.

to pick it up and go back to three. That's my job. It's not to tell the audience three. It's just to remind Richard that he wanted to say three. And so I'm spending my entire time just listening to what they say so that I can help them navigate and get back on to the points. Because as I said, if there's a question to be answered, you don't want Kevin answering it. You want Richard to answer it. So I spend my time listening to these people and then just helping them a little bit to finish their list because they've got the information and the wisdom. And as a host, that's my job, is to get it out of them in the clearest way to the benefit of the audience. So what do you do next with this incredible amount of goodwill and equity and brand awareness, right?

I mean, look, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but you know, you wake up one day and all of a sudden you're imbued with these things. For me, there was a time when, you know, I was on discovery every day and working for Ford at a time when Ford was really super-rescent. for not taking the money. And, you know, those associations helped me a lot. So what are you going to do with this? You've got permission to do a lot of things. This thing with Rubicon is interesting, for instance. But talk about that and beyond that. I think there's three things. Rubicon is one of them, and it stands for the first thing. Rubicon is a, we've made a television show just recently that's now streaming on Roku about this amazing organization, Team Rubicon, veteran-founded,

veteran-led, but not exclusively veterans, a remarkable bunch of people who rush into our communities to clean up after natural disasters and put people's lives back together again. And so I embedded with them and enjoyed making it. But that's, to your point, and thank you for asking it, you know, that's part of sort of where I see myself now, which is I can do cool things in addition to or other than this old house that are meaningful to me. If someone said, will you be a guest host on the HGTV fill in the blank. My answer is like, no thank you. I got three kids.

I got to take care of. But if they say you want to do something with Team Rubicon where you get a call at a moment's notice and have to leave on a Saturday for a week to go muck out of house after a tornado down in Mississippi, the answer is absolutely 100% because this organization is remarkable.

So to tell those kind of stories about these remarkable organizations and to bring them to life and to do it in a way that's authentic, like Team Rubicon is a phenomenal organization that's been around for more than 10, 10 years with a great story. And as you can imagine, being in TV, the number of producers that approached them to make a television show, the list is a mile high. And we met them, and very much to our pleasure, they chose us after many years of saying no to everybody. And we felt good about

that because of our reputation, but we also carried the burden of being like, well, let's not screw this up. This organization deserves to be put up onto a mantle and treated appropriately. So now I'm in a position to bring some of my wisdom and experience in making sure that a younger crew or a freelance crew that's not sort of imbued with the DNA of this old house to make sure that we stay on track and do that. And it was one of the reasons why I was allowed to be an executive producer of the show, which I've never done on this old house, was because I could sort of bring that sensibility to it. So that's one of the things that, you know, I want to do. Before you get to two, what's the show look like? Are you embedded in it? Yes. So Rubicon. So Rubicon.

Deploys volunteers. There's a hundred and seventy thousand volunteers across the country. They don't describe it this way, but I've heard it described and I love this description. It's a standing National Volunteer Fire Department. These are highly skilled, well-trained people because they've either been in the military and they know how to work in groups and teamwork and respond in uncertain situations, or there's civilians like me and we go through training, legitimate training with Team Rubicon on safety and roofing and chainsaws and hydration and organization and all these types of things. And in a moment's notice, there are 170 volunteers dispersed across this country who can show up in Fort Meyer after Ian hits and they can put hundreds of people to work to

solving problems. They're going to be over there. It's the Cajun Navy with hierarchy. Exactly. Thank you very much. Exactly. Run by very smart military folks with the training. The current CEO, who's the second one, is a Navy pilot who was a top gun instructor running this organization. So think of the qualifications that this gentleman has, Art De La Cruz, to run this organization. And that is all throughout. And as I was saying to Chuck earlier before you got on when you were bleeding out in the shower, I have done a lot of volunteer work. And this is not to put other volunteer organizations down. but on those volunteers days, I call it, you know, six people standing around a rake because they're supposed to spread the mulch on the house that was built by the professionals,

but now the volunteers showed up to finish it. This is not that. These are highly qualified people who are sleeping on the floors of VFW halls for a week with very little, you know, provisions making the best of it, and everybody has a job. Nobody talks politics. At the end of the day, people are thrilled that they had a chance to help. I love it.

People have a corporate job, and they show up, and they get to be useful and impactful. And we are driven by that as humans. What's it called on Roku? Team Rubicon. That's it. All right, great. All right.

We let the name of the organization stand for itself. We didn't mess with it. The show is called Team Rubicon. Not this old Rubicon. And you can learn more about it at Team Rubicon USA.org. Correct. Yep, absolutely. And come join us in, I think it's November.

We're having the annual fundraiser, and they've asked me to MC, and we're going to be down to New York. It's all supported by volunteer checks, donations, all this type of it. remarkable. So I'm at a point where I get to do things like that that are both fun but also meaningful. That's great. Love it. Number two. I'll probably go on the speaking circuit. I haven't done it. I did silly home shows, talked about the show, but I never really had my voice and I never

felt super comfortable in the protagonist role given my relationship with the other folks on the show. It's about letting the professionals be professionals, but I have accumulated a lot of knowledge and now I've got some opinions, which apparently sneak out in the middle of podcasts. Dude, listen, get over it. Be the wrestler. Be uncomfortable. You've got a lot to say.

And people will absolutely want to hear about what you've learned from Norm and that whole gang. That's a... And you're going to like it. You know, don't cut yourself shaving before you go on stage. But beyond that, you know, know, you'll figure it out, and you will love it. It's great. I will pack some apple juice and some saltines if anything goes bad, so I don't pass out on stage. I think I will like it, and I'm at the point where I can see my first is going to college on Friday. The other ones are entering high

school, so the time will free up, and I can probably be on the road. But the third thing is, I've been a host for 20 years. I got plenty of mileage left in me, but we are an ensemble. We are not sort of the show is not about one person or even a couple people or an ensemble. I got to find the new host. It would break my heart if I was the last host of this old house. I believe like the Boy Scouts and other institutions, Sesame Street or 60 Minutes or Chuck, what was it? Meet the Press. Meet the Press. I would love it if this is something that continues on for 50 or 70 years, you know, just as an institution. And we have to pass the torch. We're finding new contractors. We've done a good job doing that. We're continuing to work at it. Some of our apprentices who were working on the job

that you were there are now cast members, Mike, on the show. Nathan Gilbert, the Navy veteran who was with you that day. And they're going to need a new host. So I would love a couple of years to bring someone else on and teach them a couple things about listening or respecting the brand and getting out of the way. Or masculinity. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I'm not ashamed of it at all. Something that's not toxic. It's a great thing. My father, I will choke up talking about him and what he did. It was the most masculine thing ever, keeping our family together after the death of his wife, my mother, and doing stuff to unbelievable degrees. I can't think of anything more masculine, working with five young children and all that kind of stuff. And to do that...

When did your mom die? When I was two. Oh, wow. And he had five kids under the age of five. as a single dad. I have two great strengths in my life. Two, my mother died, my father remarried, which gave me a second mother, who is my mother? And then they went on to have more children.

That's masculinity to me right there. Like to work, to keep that together. Anyway, what's going on here? I feel like I lost blood in the shower, and I'm woozies. What are we talking about? Welcome to Oprah. Look, man, honestly, you buried the lead.

I'm going to let you go because it's been over an hour and I know you probably have very important things to do. Probably have to discipline your kids or go down to the school and slap the principal around or something. I don't know what you're going to do.

Somebody needs to be grounded. I don't know who it is yet, but one of them is going to the room for the rest of the day. Somebody, but you know what? Send all the kids to the room. All the boys to the room. Exactly.

Round up the boys. You don't really know until you get old enough to look back to identify the moments that actually mattered and Dirty Jobs was a tribute to my granddad and he did some things. Yeah, I remember. Right. I've heard that. I've read that. It's tremendous. So there you are too. I mean, you've got a front row seat to a dad who has to adapt and adopt,

improvise, be there, you know, to be present, to listen, to do all the things that you've been talking about. He sounds like an amazing guy and for you to have a front row seat to that level of loyalty and commitment and dedication, well, you know what? You're right. That is a gift. And just to keep a balance, I have to get this in there. His situation was dropped in his lap, and he responded to something he didn't have a choice to. It took me till high school to realize the other half of the equation, which was my mother, decided to marry a guy with five kids. and my entire childhood, I thought he was the hero. And then one day, when I realized that men and women choose each other,

it took me until I was about 18 or 16 to realize that. But I was like, holy shit, she didn't have to do any of this. She walked into this willingly. She chose it. What kind of a gift is that? The one who deals with the thing that they can't control, but then the one who chooses the impossible. Anyway.

And by the way, dear, I've got five of these. No problem. Let's do it. I do have to say that I was adorable, and I closed the deal. I was as cute as a button, obviously. Blonde hair. Did I hear you correctly that you said your father had five kids under the age of five?

My brother is five years older than me. So what is under, I'm sorry, five kids within five years. So he was seven and I was two. Yeah, yeah. Five and I have twins. Seven and two, yeah. Five years older than me, four years older than me, twins three years older than me. So between seven and two, he had five kids between seven and two.

my mother passed away. At some point, he had five kids under five, but when my mom passed away, it's a handful. That's amazing. Yeah. So where do people go to apply to be the next host for this old house? I don't know, to be honest with you. Just show up on a job site, be on a job site. Nobody on our show was ever looking for TV. We bumped into all of them. I was a homeowner when they came to fix something. That's how they found me. And Norm, Tom. You were a guest on the show? Yeah, yeah, yeah. the first season of Asked this old house, which wasn't on the air, that's our sister show where the same guys go around. And instead of doing whole house renovations, they answer questions about homeowners who got a leaky faucet or a chip in their hardwood floor. They called me up and said, we wrote a letter to the magazine.

We didn't know the show was on TV. We were looking for a historical detail. We were trying to replicate my wife and I in a house. And so because there was no mailbag in the first season of a show that didn't exist, they went to our magazine. They found our letter. They sent Tommy Silva out to my house. which my wife and now are working on. And I said, can we film an episode of this show?

And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, but if Tommy Silva's coming, the answer is yes. And so I left the bank early, took off my blue suit and wingtips, and we filmed an episode. And three weeks later, they asked me if I'd be the host. Can you believe that, Mike? He's on the show.

And then just from being a guest on the show, would you call it a guest even? It's a homeowner. We called it a homeowner. A homeowner on the show. Hose, she called Ho's for short. H-O. H-O's.

Just in case I wasn't already can. So I want to make sure that we... Yeah, you will now. All right, yeah. Kevin O'Connor, comes clean with hose. The answer is, if you're applying, just don't apply. Just please don't apply. Just don't get it if you're looking for it.

Just show up. If you're looking for, you ain't going to get it. Well, look, I mean, reality TV doesn't really mean what the title suggests, but you guys have kept it real, and that's part of keeping it real, and that's part of why I think you've been on for 45 years. And congratulations. Your story is proof, positive that you can't script the best tales. And you took the reverse commute. You went from a guy in

finance to a guy now associated with one of the most trusted shows in the history of the medium. And so that's awesome. And I really can't wait to see what you do next. I'm going to check out Team Rubicon on Roku. That starts when? It's on right now. We drop them all at once so you can stream all 13 episodes right now. Fantastic. And look, seriously, thank you for coming on this on Labor Day. It's a big deal for me. It's MicroWorks. It's our 15th thing. And, you know, sometimes it's nice to evangelize and sometimes it's nice to preach to the choir and sometimes it's nice to listen to a fellow acolyte. And you're all that, brother. I appreciate your time very much. Thank you. Chuck, nice meeting you. Mike. I'm a big fan. I got a lot of respect for you.

So it's an honor to be on your podcast with you. Let's do it again in 10 years. Why wait? Look, I'd love to keep chatting, but I have to get a transfusion. Yes, saltines and apple juice. I'm lightheaded. I need more saltines and some apple juice. Thank you, gentlemen. Be well.

Thank you. What a world. Don't hang up. This thing has to upload. Otherwise, you know. I got you. It was all for nothing. I got you.

Thank you. Always a pleasure. See you. There's no podcast without a sponsor. Thank them for paying the fray. Please don't fast forward through their commercials Even the ones you hate And really, how could you hate

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