The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 358: Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin Hill—Five Days in November

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

60 years after that horrible day in November when our 35th president was gunned down in Dallas, one of only two secret service agents from that detail still alive today gives his reflections and first-hand account and explains the difference between facts and theories.   Clint Hill is joined by his wife and co-author Lisa McCubbin Hill to discuss the day America lost its innocence, a secret service reunion 60 years in the making, and the 60th anniversary commemorative edition of their book Five Days in November.  

Well, hi again. It's me, Mike Rowe, with another unforgettable episode of the way I heard it, specifically. It's 358. It's called Five Days in November. Because Chuck, it occurs to me that, and I don't want to say this the wrong way, but I don't think I'm the most famous person in my neighborhood anymore. You're just finding this out, but I think everybody in your neighborhood knows that. Clint is a national treasure. and people tell me I'm a national treasure, but I don't think they really understand what a national treasure is. This is one of those conversations that will force you to draw a line.

Sure, you might like me. You may have seen me on TV shows such as dirty jobs. Somebody's got to do it and returning the favor. Maybe you've read a book or seen a speech or enjoyed this podcast. But whatever,

that's just a guy making a living doing the best he can with the cards he's got. Clint Hill starred in a movie. that, well, unlike any other, he started in the Zepruder film. There he is, and there he was, and today he is still seared into our collective retina as the guy who was on hand. Seconds after JFK was assassinated, threw himself over Jackie's body and JFK's, and his life has never been the same. And aside from my mom, I think he's the only person to be on this podcast.

now for, what, three times? This is the third time we've had him on. Third time's a charm, yeah. And I'm sorry just to bring this back to me ever so briefly, Chuck, but it occurs to me that my mother is now more famous than I am as well. And this is not going as I have planned it.

I didn't want to bring that up. But listen, I think your mom would even agree that Clint Hill is more of a national treasure than either of you. Yeah, yeah. Sadly, I think you're right. But on the positive side, I wound up. through complete happenstance, having access to this man. You know, he's 91 years old now. He'll be 92 in January, I believe. And he and his wife, Lisa, have written five books, I think, and one of them

has just been re-released. Ten years ago, five days in November came out. It was a bestseller. It was an important book then, but I think it's actually more important now. They've re-released a very limited number. This is a collector's edition with an afterward in it that Clint has written that addresses a lot of the conspiracy theories that are out there head on and really wraps this whole thing up, I think, in a way that makes it much more than a book, certainly much more than a history book. It's something that I think every family should have on the shelf because this country is going to be, well, we're going to continue to be impacted by the events of that day. And I think this is the best book I've seen that really summarizes all of it.

From November 63 to the present, you look at public polling, more and more people are disbelieving the single shooter theory, which was established by the Warren Commission. They said it was Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone. And as the years go by, fewer and fewer people believe that, and more and more people are believing these conspiracy theories that have not been improved. And I like the way Clint handles it. You know, he says, you can talk about your theories, but these are the facts. You know, I was there. There were three shots. He's very persuasive in this book, and he's very persuasive when he tells the story, because having read the book and then hear him tell the story, his story doesn't change. Am I right? Yeah. Well, he was there. And right,

unlike a lot of other accounts, his recollections have never wavered. It's not just that the pictures in this book are super cool and really interesting in and of themselves. they bolster his version of events. You know, and that's what I really like about it. And I was thinking as we were having this conversation with my very famous neighbor, the National Treasure Clint Hill, I was thinking our recent conversation with my favorite skeptic, Michael Shermer, makes this point as well.

He has a book out about conspiracy theories, and he talks a lot about why. Why are people so pulled in to these alternative version of events that have no concrete evidence to support them. They just don't. You know, and if you're patient enough to pull back the layers and really look at it objectively, you're going to come to the same conclusion that the UFO thing is just not happening. Sorry, it's not happening, okay? The ghostly encounters, sorry, there's just no proof. You can believe whatever you want. You can believe whatever you want about JFK, too. But if you do it in front of

Clint Hill, he's going to hand you a book, and he's going to show you some pictures, and he's going to tell you a firsthand version of events that you simply cannot dispute. That's why the book is important. That's why I'm pleased and honored to be sharing a zip code with my friend Clint Hill and his lovely wife, Lisa. Get a load of this conversation. You'll hear me say it as we discuss this, but if you want this book, and trust me you do, pre-order it now, it drops today, and it is going to be gone. before it even gets to the shelves of your local bookstores, I promise.

Here it is, five days in November, with Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin Hill. Right after this. Shameless Plug! Long before she was Peggy Rowe, my mom was Peggy Noble, daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble. It was her father, Carl, who inspired me to pitch a show called Dirty Jobs to the Discovery Channel, and later start a foundation that honored the kind of work Carl Noble did for a living, trade work, skilled labor.

That foundation is called MicroWorks, and today I'm proud to tell you that we've helped thousands of people get the training they need to begin a career in the skilled trades. In fact, we'd love to help you. You can apply for a work ethic scholarship right now at microwworks.org. We've set aside $10 million for this year's applicants, thanks to a number of very effective fundraisers, including the one with my grandfather's name on the label.

I refer, of course, to Noble Tennessee Whiskey, K-N-O-B-E-L, which is now available in a variety of delicious mash bills, all of which you can peruse at noblespirates.com. In fact, if you spend $100 and use code Carl, C-A-R-L, you'll get one tube of orange-bitter-infused sugar cubes for free. That's code Carl with a C to get nine, sugar cubes ingeniously engineered to make nine perfect old fashions every time. It's my favorite way to support microworks and my favorite whiskey to sip responsibly after a long day of interviewing

people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirates.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-Spirates.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. Clint, how are you, sir? I'm awake. That is a start. We'll take it. You know what?

That's better than not, man. No kidding, man. That's one of the great lessons in life. I don't know if you've experienced it yourself, but for me, the business of managing expectations is somewhere near the very top of the list, right? So if the bar is awake, that's terrific. We can only go uphill. That's right.

That's true. Awaken upright. Fogging a mirror, as my grandfather used to say. Good indication you're still there. You know, we might want to talk about the surprise that we had for Clint and what his reaction was. Yeah, you know what? Let's start there, Lisa, because of the many regrets that I know I'm going to have one day when I look back. at my misspent life and career.

It's not being present for that. I was in Italy at the time, and apparently I missed quite the shindig. Well, it really wasn't. I had no idea what was going on. Explain what happened. Well, I had been told that two friends of ours from Washington, D.C., Rocky Delmonico and his girl,

and his wife, I guess she's his wife, Emily. Eileen. I'm sorry. We're coming, and they were bringing with a gentleman from Italy, who was a friend of ours, and it works for Dallara. They make all the chassis for her race class cars, number one. $5,500. $500.

Cars in Monaco or places. And so they came, and she had me get all gussied up for them before we're going to go to dinner. And they insist that I go out on the deck and sit there by the table and talk to them while she was doing something else. I noticed when she came downstairs that she was dressed rather like she was going to go someplace special. And I mentioned to her she had some answer like she had a new gown. She just wanted to try and something. I also noticed that this was on a Wednesday. The gardeners usually came on Friday, but that day they came Wednesday morning.

So I asked her about that, and she had some cock and maybe story to tell me, about that. So I finally went out at the table and sat there talking to these three people and turned to the right and standing in the doorway leading out to the grassy area of our yard. First guy I saw was a guy that I had come into the Secret Service with on the same day in 1958, Ron Pontius, from Chicago. Shit grief. I thought, Ron's pretty sick. Did I just die and I'm in heaven? And Ron there. And he took a step forward and right behind him was Jerry Blaine from Grand Junction Colorado. He and I were together on the detail. Gee, all these guys

died at the same time. I mean and there came Tommy Wells from Florida and Ken Ginole's from Chicago and Rad Jones from Michigan. I mean, just just kept on coming. It turns out she had arranged for a surprise party for me. He didn't die. And all these guys had flown in from

all over the country. Even one of the widows flown in. Her son helped her get here by accompanying her from Virginia Beach, Virginia. I mean, it was amazing. These guys were just fantastic guys. One of them was a former director of the Secret Service.

Joe Clancy from Philadelphia. He and his wife were here. And then she had arranged all this stuff. I had no knowledge whatsoever that she was doing this. She arranged to have them go out and on a boat. They came in on a Wednesday. They went out on a boat, enjoyed themselves. I couldn't believe this all happened, but it did.

It was the most wonderful surprise one can imagine. Clint, what kind of secret service agent are you? How do you not figure this out? Was there no advance work? Were there no clues? Can a man of your experience be so duped? I have to admit I'm a really dumbass. Apparently.

No, you're out of practice. You're out of practice. That must be it. I guess I'm a good actress. She made no indication at all prior to the time that I was made aware that these other three people were coming. There was no indication of anything other than that. And she had alerted a lot of people. and they really all kept their mouth shut.

What did it take to arrange this? How long did it take? I mean, it's pretty remarkable. You just went down a list of people who many are in their, what, their ninth decade from all over the country. So, I mean, we normally, every September, we would attend the annual Secret Service agents conference, a former Secret Service agents. And we always looked forward to going to that. And the last one we went to was 2019. Then there was COVID, and then they had one this past year, but since Clint can't travel anymore, we realized we're not going to get to go to those anymore.

So I got the idea, well, why don't we bring part of the conference to us? Invite the people that are really special to us and see if they'll come. Well, I knew that Clint would never go for this. He would shut me down, right? Yeah, that's true. He never would have done this. So I sent out an email to all these people and I said, I have this idea. Why don't we all get together and come to, you know, our beautiful little town here outside of San Francisco?

And, you know, how many people can come? Well, Ken G. Nullis canceled his trip to Italy to come. Unlike Mike. Unlike Mike. But he said he wouldn't miss it. And, you know, I was, I think it's such a tribute to. to Clint that all these people made that effort to come to see him.

Yeah, everybody kept it quiet. It was so amazing. And it was just a beautiful time. Once they all got together, all these guys, it's just like no time has gone by and they start telling stories. It was fantastic. Yeah, some of the photographs are tremendous. Take that day of this get-together.

I'll never get over it. But I never thought he would have the reaction that he thought. He had died and gone to heaven. So I really thought, I must be dead. Lisa, I mean, he's 91 years old. I mean, really a surprise. She's taking chances at boy. She really rolled the dice on that one, brother.

What a way to go. Well, congratulations on a great event and on not dying and everything else. It really must be extraordinary. I mean, I've never been with respect as old as you, but to look back through the mists of time, through the decades with friends, dear friends, who were there at, you know, really this turning point in history, does it feel like a very long time ago,

or does it feel like yesterday to you? It depends upon the situation. Some things feel like there were 65, 70 years, ago, like my high school graduation or my college graduation or my basic training in the Army, I guess those things weren't the top of my list. But some things seemed like it was just last week, and it's 50 years since that event happened. So it varies depending upon the situation. Is it strange for you, Lisa, to see how time can get compressed?

This book originally came out 10 years ago on the 50th anniversary. Now it's been 60 years. You've republished five days in November with some new materials in it that are kind of extraordinary. But I just wonder, is it getting more and more surreal as you look around and see the interest in this event? It seems to be growing as time goes on. It does, actually. You're right. So this book, Five Days in November, is all about those.

five days around the assassination of President Kennedy, of which Clint, of course, was right there in the middle of all of it. And the idea for this was to show it in photographs and Clint's first person account as he's going through at present tense. So you're witnessing things as he witnesses it, not knowing what's ahead. And it's really rather timeless, I think. The idea now at the 60th anniversary was since the book is written in the present tense, for Clint now to look back 60 years and give his perspective on why there is this fascination still with all of this, why there are still questions

and controversies and conspiracies and to give, you know, again, his first person unmatched account. And to me, I mean, that's it. Chuck, I want you to jump in real quick because we were talking earlier and I rarely ask for Chuck's opinion because no one really cares, and it's not relevant, by and large.

It's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. But he loves this book so much. It's true. I do. Well, you had some really good points about it. Like, I remember 10 years ago when this came out, the market was flooded with all kinds of recollections and reminiscences, and yours stuck out for obvious reasons. But now, for whatever reason, it really is standing alone.

And Chuck, you had some interesting things. thoughts as to why? Well, I listened to the book on tape, which unfortunately I didn't see the photos that are in the book, and I hope to get a copy of the full book so I can see those. But you will get a copy. In just listening to it. 2999. It's first person. It's present tense. So I'm just experiencing everything with Clint from those five days. It was like a movie to me. And I got incredibly emotional multiple times. In the book, just the tragedy of it all, you set up so beautifully the people's reactions to the Kennedy's every place in Texas that they were.

This was a beloved couple. This was a beloved president. And I think what Mike is referring to, the one thing that got to me is that in the end, the epilogue where you talk about the conspiracy theories and why you believe that it was just one man who did this. and you make a brilliant point by using the photographs to say where the bystanders were looking because they had heard the gunshots. And that's a huge indication of what exactly happened. I just thought it was brilliantly done. Brilliantly done.

Yeah, in that particular photo, it's just as the first shot has gone off. You can see in the background, the people that are standing along the, side the presidential vehicle, they've come there to see the president and the first lady, and they're literally in front of them, and the people are turned away. They're turned back towards where they heard the sound. Toward the book depository building. Towards the Texas school book depository. Sixth floor window, Texas school book depository, yes, sir. Nobody's turned around to look at the grassy knoll. No, nobody I thought saw. All right, look. I want to get into this. I just want to read something real quick, because this struck me.

It's just a real short paragraph. In fact, it's the beginning of the afterward. On November 22nd, 1963, my life changed forever because of the history-altering crime committed in my presence in Dallas, Texas. Before that day, I was just Clinton Hill. But in the 60 years since, I have been known as the man who climbed onto the back of the presidential car when JFK was assassinated. It's not a label I carry out of pride. it's the label I have learned to accept. When we originally wrote this book, 50 years after the assassination, my hope was that sharing these indelible memories from my unmatched perspective would provide not only current readers, but future generations as well,

with an authentic version of what actually happened that fateful day. And here's the sentence. That's important to me. It concerns me deeply that now, 60 years after the tragedy, Numerous polls show that a majority of American citizens still believe that a conspiracy was involved in JFK's death, despite the lack of conclusive evidence. This belief is based on countless theories that continue to proliferate across the Internet, and I fear that once all of us who were witnesses to history are gone, the truth will be buried along with us. That's it. There are only two people left from that motorcade, either the president's car or the follow-up car, that are still alive. I'm one of them.

So why, Lisa, is it so important as a journalist to make sure that one of the surviving witnesses has his exact recollections perfectly preserved as this book does? Well, I think Clint, as you know, was reluctant to talk about any of this for so many years. And then once he started talking and going out and speaking about this, he realized there was tremendous interest. And his memories are important to history. And the great thing about Clint, as you know and have witnessed, is his memory is extraordinary. He remembers details. If you look at the photographs and he'll tell you a story, it's exactly as it is in the photograph. So, you know, it was just important to write this down for history so that it's everlasting.

Because like you said, he's the last one. And 40 years from now, what are people going to know or see or think? They might see what's on the Internet. And it might be, you know, Oliver Stone's movie. people believe that. That was really a disservice to the truth. What does it feel like, Clint, to be sitting at home, flicking around the TV, you come across the Oliver Stone movie or any number of other versions of the way somebody else heard it, right? To be sitting there and watching something that you know for a fact to be just completely untrue. It really bothers me to know that that kind of stuff is, in fact, out there, and it is.

It's not just that movie's by Oliver Stone. It's like you said, there's other stuff. But then he comes out with more stuff besides the movie. He had another thing out this year, and he called on certain technical people that he thought were really important to the issue, and it turns out they didn't know a damn thing. was really sick. I actually got sick of my stomach lifting to him. We had to turn it off. He was so repulsed by it. He really felt physically sick that this was

on television, that people were saying these things as if they were fact. And of course, people will believe them. It just seems like we're living in a time. And, you know, I'd love your thoughts on this too, Clint. I mean, there's always the fog of war. There's always he said, she said, there's always conflicting accounts. Sure. It just feels like we're living at a time in a very general way where we're surrounded by experts who can't seem to agree on a set of facts. And I wonder, do you worry that the truth in so many different areas is being missed

by so many people? Oh, it is. You know, when a government institution, like the Warren Commission, which was set up by LBJ and chaired by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, when they make errors in perception and judgment

in their final conclusions, and they're trying to sell that to the American public, that's what creates these problems. There are some things that they said and did like the magic bullet theory, that's one thing. It just is amazed to me that anybody was dumb enough to accept it. But that created conspiracies all up and down the line. And it's just sick and sad.

Well, people are still raving, raving. I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. and if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Rowe gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding and well-established commitment issues. You'll learn about the latest offer from Pure Talk, which includes unlimited talk, text, and data for just $3499 a month with no contracts and no commitments of any kind. You can see why I love these guys. If, on the other hand, you have better things to do with your time,

then watch my mom and me be impossibly charming together, then allow me to remind you, here, without all the cleverness and charm, that unlimited talk, text and data on a blazing fast network for just 3499 a month really is an unmitigated bargain from an American wireless company that keeps all their customer service in this country, supports our veterans in a meaningful way, as well as the MicroWorks Foundation, and allows me to exploit my own mother in a national advertising campaign.

Do what my mom did. Get yourself unlimited high-speed data for just $34.99 a month at puretalk.com slash row. You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure talk. So at what point, Lisa, was the magic bullet? in your research, dismissed as nonsense, or has it ever been? Does it still somehow persist? No, because Clint has the answer, I mean, as to what happened, and he was there and he witnessed it. So there was no magic bullet. Clint, tell them what happened.

What happened was there were three shots, all fired from the sixth floor window, it was Texas School Book Depository, one rifle, three shots. Shot number one, hit President Kennedy in the upper back, below the neck, just to the right of the spinal cord, and came out through the throat. Shot number two, hit Governor John Connolly and caused him serious damage. It was so powerful, it went through various parts of his body. and really damaged his back, his arm, his sigh. It really made a mess. They were able to take care of him, though, at the hospital,

and so we got in there. And then shot number three, it hit President Kennedy in the head. At the time, the president had fallen to his left toward Mrs. Kennedy. He was seated on his left. Their faces were almost touching. His head was slightly down like this. That bullet entered back here, but erupted right up in here, right above the area, and blew that a portion of the skull out.

It was still attached. Part of the skull was still attached to the hair line, to the skin with the hair. It just kind of flipped forward. But a great bunch of material came right out of their blood, bone. material, brain material. That was a fatal shot. Nobody could survive that. We got him to the hospital as quickly as we could.

I screamed at the driver to get us to the hospital. The supervisor in the president's car was talking to the lead car, which is right in front of the president's car, and being driven by the chief of police of Dallas, telling them that we'd been hit, get us to a hospital, and they were leading us to a hospital. Luckily, we're just getting on a freeway. We had free access.

And we got him to the hospital within a few minutes. But nothing could have been done for him anyone. He was dead. And does it strike you? I mean, when you look back at it, it's sort of an odd combination of things to know for sure. The first thing you know for sure is that he's dead. And it doesn't matter when he gets to the hospital. He's going to be dead when he arrives.

The second thing is you have to get into the hospital as quickly as humanly possible. Those two things seem odd, right, to exist at the same time, but obviously they did. But we also had a wounded person in the car, John Conlin. And we had to get him to a hospital. And we had to get that car containing those occupants to the nearest hospital as fast as possible. And that's what we did. But this is really interesting on the back cover of this book. I guess that's from the Zabruder film, and there's a frozen shot of you running after the car,

halfway into it, Jackie is crawling toward you, her husband is dead, and in the caption below it, it says, if you trip or stumble or fall or fail to get into this accelerating car, you're going to be run over by the car behind you. there's no doubt you're on a locomotive the stakes could i mean it's hard to imagine how things could have been worse but having a secret service agent run over as he tried to get into the car would have certainly been a uh would have been a hell of a thing well and mrs kennedy if clint hadn't gotten there she could have been thrown off the car and she would have been run over the back of the car she could not have she would have been run over she'd have come off the back of the car

they'd have run over her too so uh oh God, can you imagine. I was lucky that I was as quick as I was, and that I was able to get my foot up on the back buffer. There was a place there for agents to stand. It's about maybe a foot square. And I got my foot up there, but then it was the same time that the car accelerated slightly,

and my foot slipped off. And I had to take about two more steps to get it back up there, and then I throw myself forward toward Mrs. Kennedy, get a hold of her, put her back in the seat, and then crawl up on the top of the back seat and lay above both President and Mrs. Kennedy. While the car was moving rapidly toward the hospital. Didn't you have a couple of practice runs kind of, like in the book, you're on the follow car on the left side, the floorboard or what do you call that thing? The running board?

Running board. Is that right? Running board. Right. So you're on the left side of the running board, and when the crowds got thick, you would run up. You would jump off that car and run up to the president's car and get on the running board there. Just in case things went haywire, that happened like two or three times ahead of time. Do you think that helped you to, like, gauge really the distance and how quickly you need to go? It may have, and we had brained for that type of thing to happen. But in the heat of the moment, you never know how you're going to react or how well you're going to do. jumping off a moving car onto a pavement that's not moving with you is a little bit difficult. And you probably weren't wearing tennis shoes either. Oh, I wasn't. I was wearing my good old floor shimes. And I should make that company pay me. Yeah, you should. The way I heard it, brought to you by floor shine. Agent number nine.

It's one of the things we practice. This is in real time, so you don't, you can't not make it if you miss, you're likely to be killed. One shot. Yeah, I mean, really the athleticism is incredible of what he accomplished. Just think about that. Car is moving. It's accelerating. You're jumping off.

You're going after another moving car. You slip in the pavement. You know, not many people could do that. I didn't have a real clear shot either because I had a motorcycle. When I jumped off the car, there was a motorcycle police officer Dallas adjacent to our car, the one I was on, just out to the left, just outside the left front wheel. And I had to get between him and the car I was on to get to the president's car. That was probably more scary to me than anything else.

The thing that I find so interesting about all of this, just speaking really broadly, is the way you can take a big moment and distill it into a relatively small period of time. This book does it over a period of days, right? Five days in November. But I've also read accounts of six seconds, right? The six seconds it took to get off three shots. And it's just interesting that as time goes by, sometimes, the best way to try and understand a moment is to make it as small as possible. So I've asked you this before, Clint, and you've told me that it feels like yesterday, that you remember with perfect clarity that day. But what, if anything, was consciously going through your mind as you were running toward the car? I mean, were you thinking or were you purely reacting? Probably accommodation, but my whole purpose was.

to move forward, get onto the back of the car, to build that barricade protective cover up there for both President and Mrs. Kennedy. It's what we call on the Secret Service, cover and evacuate. Cover and let the driver have the opportunity to get you out of the danger zone. And that's what was supposed to happen, but I didn't get there in time to cover. They bullet outran me, and it hit President Kennedy and head. As moments go. I mean, that's your point in the afterward. One day you're Clint Hill and literally seconds later, you're that guy. Did you know it at that point? No. When did you know that you had sort of stumbled, maybe even Forrest Gumped your way into our collective memory? I don't know. One strange thing that really did happen was.

I was in my residence in Alexandria, Virginia, and doorbell rang. I went to the door, two men standing there. One was obviously a photographer, and the other was a reporter. They were from London. And they wanted to talk to me about the new film about me. And I said, I don't quite know what you're talking about. No film about me. Oh, it was just coming out.

Clint Eastwood is the star in it. I said, well, if there's a film, I don't know a thing about it. I went back in the house, and they left. They could see they're talking to each other and shaking their heads. What the hell is going on here? This guy won't admit they have a movie about him? It wasn't a movie about me. There was a movie about a support.

supposed Secret Service agent that they had built a story around using some events. But the character was based on you? Well, eventually I found out that yes, that was what they had based it on. I found that out from Eastwood, who admitted that to somebody in a letter or something and they told me about it. I did meet Mr. Eastwood and Lisa had her picture. with it. I bet she did. But, you know, the movie, in the line of fire, classic. Yeah, sure. He knew nothing about it. Nobody had approached him about it.

They made this movie using him. So, yeah. That made me, when it really struck me that, geez, you suppose people think I'm, you know, something special? I don't think so. Because anywhere in my neighborhood, I'd go anywhere I want to. Nobody ever mentioned anything about it to me. Whether it was a grocery store, drugstore, get my hair cut, nothing. When I first met him in 2009, he really had no idea his sort of, not his importance in history, but how well-known he was. You know, once we started going out and publicizing the first book that we were involved with together,

The Kennedy Detail, that's when I remember him saying, gosh, all these people, they come up to me and they want to shake my hand. I really don't understand it. I mean, he really didn't have a clue. I still don't feel like I'm an imposter. You know, find somebody who's worthy. Shake their hand. Well, look, I mean, we can debate your worthiness.

You're going to lose that argument. I mean, because everybody believes and sees in you something truly admirable. You know, people often ask themselves, what would I do? what would I do if I were in that situation? How would I have responded if I was on that train when those terrorists showed up? If I was on Flight 93, would I have been among the men who rush the cockpit? And most people, they don't really know. They like to think they would be.

They like to imagine themselves at their best. And then they see you doing something that they hope they would do. And look, fair or unfair, you get a lot of that. projected onto you. And as time goes by, more and more. And now today, 60 years after the fact, I mean, it feels to me, Lisa, like the country is realizing that time is fleeting. This was one of those moments. I forget what Malcolm Gladwell calls it, but there are moments where everybody remembers where they were and what they were doing. And Clint was right smack in the middle of those moments. 9-11 is one such moment, certainly Pearl Harbor for a whole lot of people, you know, many of whom are

was a moment. This was that moment. So that's why, Clint, because people like Chuck's sister, who's about nine years older than him, was sitting there, cross-legged in front of the TV, watching it. And she's still around. And she's still looking for some weird way to close the loop.

Millions of people are, and you're helping them do that. Which is Clint Eastwood or not. That's pretty awesome, then. Well, I hope I'm helping them in some way. My intent is to give them the information that I know to be true, honest, factual, and let it go from there. I have nothing to benefit me other than just I believe in the truth. Which is precisely why this book is persuasive. My comment to Chuck earlier, especially when you go through the afterward, which is brand new,

and I think with respect to everything else in the book, the most important part of it, you don't sell past the sale. You address every conspiracy, theory that's out there. You explain why it's wrong, why people believed it reasonably for a while, but then why it was debunked or should be debunked. And in the end, it's not a big argument. You're kind of shrugging your shoulders and saying, look, I was there, which is something almost nobody else can say. And that's why this book is going to be a collector's item. Lisa, I hope your publisher printed a whole bunch of them because people are going to want them.

Would you mind, would you call them up and tell them that? It really is. It's a beautiful book. It's a collectible edition. It's in hardcover. And it's one of those things. It's a keepsake, I think, but it's something to be passed down. I mean, you can share it with elementary school children. I mean, there's no bad language in it. It's rated PG maybe because of, you know, there is a murderer in it. But it's the truth. and it's timeless. I don't know. I really think that it should be

in all history classes as required reading, but I'm a little biased, but that's what it is, is history from somebody that was there. Yeah, I agree with what she said. I wish they would include it in their history courses.

This is reality. This is what does happen, and it did happen in this case. And at the time, the transfer of power from one person to another was instantaneous, automatic, it's very important to know that, that it can happen that way.

And the way that it affected the world, that was one of the things, because, you know, Mike, I wasn't alive when this happened. But, you know, in doing all the research and talking with Clint and seeing everything that I've seen about it, the world stopped for four days.

nothing else mattered. People were around the world were in shock. You know, we have this dry cleaner here that we go to in our little village here, and we gotten to know the people that run it. And the gentleman that runs that I ran into him the other day, and he was asking about Clint, and he said, he couldn't believe it's been 60 years. And he remembers when he was in South Korea,

and the teacher stopped class. and said President Kennedy has been shot and killed. And in South Korea, the world stopped. The kids were sent home from school. I mean, that's amazing. Truly incredible. It's truly incredible. And the fact that there is still so much controversy and so much, you know, disagreement around it.

I wonder, it's been, what, 21, 22 years since 9-11. So 40 years from now, the vast majority of people in this country will have no recollection of that day. And look at the conspiracies swirling around that event just 20 years in. Yeah. And imagine, imagine what's going to be out there in whatever the internet 2.03. Who knows with artificial intelligence and everything else. The truth is going to be in short supply. Yeah.

And that, to me, is why, you know, our best hope of getting at it is through an eyewitness. And, you know, there you are, Mr. Hill. Yes. There you are. That's me. I'm reluctantly so. It's me. Well, you were everywhere on that day.

And those five days, you were everywhere involved in that. Well, I was talking to Mike about it earlier. Just like, if you ask someone, what do you know about the Kennedy assassination? There are a lot of images that come to your mind. There's a brooder film. You're the guy who's running. up on the back of the car. President Johnson being sworn in.

You're just right off camera there, witnessing that. And just every step along the way, you are there. And Mike said, Mike called you Zellig, which is the Woody Allen film. And it's kind of like Forrest Gump, just being everywhere where everything

important is happening. There you are. I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent

meat company that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises to deliver high-quality American-grown meat for a fair price. Today, that promise. And Ben's absolute determination to keep it has not only propelled good ranchers into the top tier of meat delivery companies, it's fueled enormous awareness among meat eaters like me that we have all been affirmatively deceived by policies that allow imported meat to be marketed as domestic. That's the reason I switch to good ranchers. If I'm being honest, though, I doubt that I would have stayed this long had the quality not been so exceptional. Every single cut I've devoured from Good Ranchers has been straight up delicious, and every morsel was raised on a small American farm or ranch.

Give them a try. Subscriptions are affordable and flexible. In fact, if you start your plan today, you'll get free meat for life and $40 off your first order. Just use code mic at good ranchers.com. Free meat for life, $40 off your first order. Good Ranchers.com. American meat delivered. If you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch, get good ranchers now. But also I think what is so interesting about this book is because Clint was right there in and amongst everything, you get a sense of what was all going on behind the scenes and what was happening in the chaos and the questions, along with all the emotion. You know, they couldn't stop to grieve and process this.

He had to keep doing his job. He had to protect Mrs. Kennedy. They didn't know who was behind this. So, yes, the president is dead. Now they have to get President Johnson back to Washington. You know, is somebody going to shoot down the plane? So I think that's what's really fascinating is being right there in the middle of it. And then going through Mrs. Kennedy having to pick out where,

her husband's going to be buried. And, you know, there were different questions about that. You know, the family, I think, wanted him to be buried in Massachusetts. You know, there were all these decisions that had to be made in this horrible, you know, moment when people, the unthinkable, had just happened. And yet you have to continue on and do your job. And she had to plan a funeral. And Clint's there telling her, Mrs. Kennedy, I don't think it's a good idea for you

to walk through the streets of Washington, D.C., three days after there's been an assassination, it was a security nightmare. So all of those things that go on, I think bring it to life for people to help them understand really how immensely tragic this was. And at the same time, she was doing all this stuff after the funeral, she held a reception

for all those heads of state that came there. And she told me earlier that day that please remind me, meaning her, that John's third birthday is today. November 25th. And so it ranged for a little party after this reception for all these heads of state. There was a little party with just cousins

and the various military assistance to the president. the Air Force and Navy Army came there and they gave John little gifts like a helicopter and a boat. You know, not a real one, just a toy. But she remembered that she managed to do that. And then later that night she called me and we took her over to the cemetery and she had a private moment there with her husband's body. When did you sleep?

We left the White House about 10.30 on the 21st. First sleep I had was, well, I got to bed that night. Not until about one in the morning. Got up at 6. Then all the 8th of 22nd. All through past midnight, got to the White House at 4.30. Back in my office by 6. went home eight

I don't know I didn't get any sleep the 22nd maybe one hour between 12 and 1 a.m. In the book you said you'd been awake for 42 hours

before you finally got to sleep. Well, that doesn't surprise me at all. That doesn't surprise me. You know, nobody ever talks about this but I think it's super interesting. Like I thought the same thing when I saw I think it was the missiles of October

Remember, it was William Devane, I think, played Kennedy in that. That was a required viewing, you know, when I was in school. I think that's the first time I remember thinking, you know, when and how do you sleep? You're the leader of the free world, and it looks like we're entering into the end of the world, right? The potential nuclear Armageddon. You have to sleep because you can't function, but how? How do you, in the midst of a situation like that, do you dream or do you simply pass out and then just wake up screaming and getting back at it?

Can't even imagine. Everybody tries to accommodate the president, whoever it may be insofar as getting rest is concerned. But there are a lot of things that happen in the middle of the night, which they have to be awakened and discussed with. So it really takes a toll. If you look at a person who takes the oath of office on the 20th of January, look at him six months later and then six months again, you're going to see a big difference in how they appear because it really wears a person down. It is a very difficult job, and it's not for somebody who can't take stress because it is stressful. At your party, did you guys talk about this sort of stuff?

Or was it football games, your favorite movies, your last great meal? What did you guys reminisce about? Things that happened along the way that, you know, people make mistakes, agents included. Those were the things we laugh about after the fact when it didn't cause any harm. And we could laugh about it. And we all have those occasions. that we know someone who did something that was really stupid. And we laugh about it and try to learn from it.

I'd like to hear more about that. I don't want you to throw anybody under the bus, but tell me a stupid story. Oh, well. Something, tell me, give me a cautionary tale, Clint, something I can apply to my own, you know, my own ridiculous life. Well, I'm going to have to think now. I have to clean it up.

No, you don't. Yeah, I do. I can clean it up later in the edit. I mean, some things that happened. I had privilege of serving five presidents, three Republicans and two Democrats. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and Ford. And they all had different habits,

different lifestyles. Eisenhower was older, 70 at the end. That sounds young. Well, it does now. 70s, wow. Yeah. He was a general.

In fact, Mrs. Eisenhower never called him president. She called him general. The general. You want to talk to her. You're talking about the general. Do you see how he's diverting, Mike? I do. From telling stories about the Secret Service agents.

Well, even Mrs. Eisenhower. We had jokes. You know, she loved to go shopping. And she usually preferred to go to that French store, J.C. Penne. I mean, it was crazy times. Tell him the story about, wasn't there an agent that was overseas, and he ended up coming back on the Queen Mary or something like that? Brooks.

Yeah, we had an agent east of New York. And he was always getting himself in trouble. And he was finally, he was overseas on an assignment. In fact, I think he was assigned to the Paris office for a while. And he had to return back to Washington, D.C. They sent him a message saying, you were required to return to Washington at the most earliest convenience and conveyance possible.

He knew that the, I think it was the Queen Mary, was leaving one of the ports there in France, going to New York, and that was the earliest conveyance. Early departure. And so he went back to New York, and it took him, well, I don't know, two weeks to get there, whatever it was,

but that was just a typical type of guy that he was, and he got away with it. You got a cruise on the Queen Mary because he followed orders to the letter. leave an earliest conveyance possible. We should do a book or a podcast. We'll prepare more for it, Mike, about funny things that happened

in the Secret Service stories. You say when. You say when. We're standing by. I want to shift gears real quick, too, from the movie you didn't know about in the line of fire to one that I'm pretty sure you do, which is the documentary of your whole.

life, which I was honored to appear in. When is this thing supposed to be out in the world, Lisa, do we know? It's called Agent Number Nine, the Clint Hill story, and we've wrapped the shooting for it. It's now in editing and post-production. So I know the director is working on it really 20 hours a day. So we're hoping to, you know, see a finished cut maybe in a couple of months. And then hoping that it will be released at some point in 2024, probably mid, you know, summer or fall, 2024.

I don't know much about it. All I know is I had to sit for a taping four hours a day, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. Four days. That was rough. Let me guess. Lisa just took you to a studio and said, hey, let's go in here for a minute and have lunch and didn't let you know anything at a minute. Right here in this house. They came here and they changed the whole place around.

They were very good though, very kind, very thoughtful. And they apparently have done a good job. I don't know. I haven't seen any of it. Well, and the great thing is, so part of the surprise was I invited the film crew to come and film this surprise reunion of the agents. So that becomes part of the documentary? So that will be part of the documentary because they had gone around.

the country and filmed some of these guys, Ron Pontius and Jerry Blaine, who are Clint's longest friends, oldest friends in the Secret Service, and went through so much of this with him. So they had gone and interviewed them separately. And so now in the film, you'll get to see them together at this surprise that he truly did not know about. I wasn't worried that, you know, he was going to have a heart attack or something. I was more worried that he was going to be so mad at me, but he wasn't.

That was good. He was very happy in the end. I had to be happy. I mean, it was a wonderful event. I couldn't have dreamt it up. I mean, it was fantastic. People are going to love it. They're going to love to be able to see that.

They're going to love to imagine themselves there. They're going to love it, Clint. Most people would have canceled a trip to Italy for it, probably. Look, I'm a neighbor. I've got all the access I need. Speaking of access, that's probably something to circle back with on the book. It's so accessible. It's not just that it's filled with facts and pictures.

It's not just that it's relevant and personal. It's a history book for people who don't read history books. And that's why I think it's really important to own this thing. I said to you this morning, full disclosure, folks, I was out for my walk. I stopped by to get a cup of coffee with. Lisa, and to pick up a copy of the physical book so I could hold it up like this and show you this is what it looks like. And we were chatting out back. And I said, honestly, when I read through this, it's like an amazing picture book with a giant caption that got completely out of hand.

That's how it feels. The pictures are incredible. And I don't say that to in any way diminish the import of the content. It's just so easy to... consume, and I'm really glad you did it that way, because the stakes are pretty high with regard to the truth, and we can't ask people to consume something that's too dense or too difficult. Unfortunately, right? People just don't have the capacity for it or the patience for it anymore. This book's for everybody. Well, thank you, Mike. Don't mention it. At least I can do. We appreciate it. You know what I forgot to do, though? I forgot to get Clint to autograph it. If I come by again later with my 40-pound backpack,

covered with sweat, would you sign it for me? For money. He's going to sell a lot of books with this podcast. I think we can give him a book. We'll even offer you a drink. Chuck, you need to come. A drink, good. Okay.

All right. There you go. Get on a plane, Chuck. Look, with regard to that, and I don't want to sell past the sale, but I know the publisher. I know what happens in situations like this. there's not going to be enough to go around.

The book is going to sell out. If this is a thing that interests you, and it should be, get the book now. Go pre-order it now. Where did they go, Lisa? Amazon, the normal places. Amazon, and if you want, or go to your local bookstore, we really like to support independent bookstores. And if you would like an autographed copy, you could stop by our house, but we don't recommend

that. Or go to book passage. com and they have autographed copies available there book passage.com. Last thought, Clint. Yes, sir. I wonder if you would say something to people today who feel like they're living in a truly unprecedented time. People who look at the situation in the Mideast and maybe the divisions in our country

and all of the uncertainty that comes from living in a time when the experts don't see eye to eye on any given topic. As a guy who lived through five days of maybe the greatest level of uncertainty in the 20th century, what, if any, words of advice or wisdom do you have for people who are just freaking out today by the headlines that we see?

Well, I find it very difficult myself to continue to watch news stories recently. It's very hard to... some of the things that are happening in Washington, D.C. Congress is not living up to what my expectations were of them. You know, I used to just have the utmost respect for every member of Congress. It didn't matter the political party they represented, but that they've really gotten to the point where I have a very difficult time to having respect for them, any of them. There are very few that I would really point out that I would respect. And I'm not a Democrat.

I'm not a Republican. I'm an independent to see the things that are happening now, even within a party. It's sickening. I wish they could get their act together. But for the common American people, we have to have patience. eventually I think it will work its ways out I think that eventually we'll get back to normal

where people will be able to talk to each other whether they're a Democrat talking to a Republican or whatever I know I have friends I had a friend who was a lawyer in Washington and he said he had clients when they were Democrat and Republican but he couldn't have them in the appointments with them in his office

close together because if they met, they immediately got into an argument. So, I mean, it just gotten stupid. So all I can say is, I hope and pray for better days ahead. I really honestly think that we'll get there. We've been through some really trying times in the past. In 1968, the riot in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention was something that it was hard to believe you could get over that. But we did.

And we've gotten over a lot of things. And so just have faith. Make people be honest again. I wish that they would be. Be kind. Yes, be kind. Be thoughtful. Be considerate.

Take care of each other. I don't know what else I could tell you. You're right there with the Boy Scouts, Clint. Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, Kind, obedient, cheerful. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, Clint, it's funny.

I said to your wife, the way I heard it, I mean, it's the name of this podcast, and sometimes it just feels like when I'm looking around at the different takes on the different set of facts, or maybe different takes on the same sets of facts, you know, I'm glad you're here to, I'm just going to say it, to put the truth out there. It's the truth I believe, anyway.

way, the way you heard it, since you actually saw it as well. Thank you. You're welcome. Before you sign off, do you guys want to talk about Paul Landis or not? It's up to you. You're asking me or are you asking? Yeah, I'm asking you. If you have a question, I'll answer it as best I can.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, look, folks, if you didn't know, Paul Landis is another Secret Service agent who I think is approaching 90 years of age. he was only 21 or 22 at the time. But he's written a book. He's 88 now? Okay. I know your friends. And Paul, in fact,

is mentioned more than a few times in this book, his pictures in this book. But he's putting out a book that makes some claims that I think a lot of people are either confused by or curious about. So obviously, you know, we are curious about that too. What has he said that holds up? or worries you in terms of the historical record?

Well, the biggest thing is that he has written this book and there's certain information in the book that is different than information that he provided the Secret Service on November 27, 1963, and again on November 30, 1963, in the form of memorandum, and signed and then that information was given to the Warren Commission.

The information in those statements is not the same as the statements that he's making in this book. And so I find it very difficult to know which one to actually believe. It's hard for me. I'm very upset by what I read in the book. He alleges that he found a bullet in prime condition. in the limousine, behind Mrs. Kennedy where she was seated, on the top of the, where the cloth or leather met the metal, when she got up to accompany the president's body that was on a gurney in the emergency room.

He alleges that he found a bullet and that he put it in his pocket and that he had it in his pocket as he went in to the emergency room. That's as far as I could take it insofar as, well, I'll say this. He did tell me once in March of 2014 that he had found a bullet in the car, that he had put it in his pocket, and that he took it into the emergency room and put it on a gurney in the hallway. Now that is very important. He put it on a gurney in the hallway.

It's different from what it states in his new book. In his new book, he says that he then went into the trauma room, trauma room one, where President Kennedy was being treated, and he placed that bullet on the, he says, the operating table where President Kennedy was, which Kennedy was never moved from the gurney onto the operating table or examination table. So there's a lot of conflicting things in there. If you know the story and you can go down the rabbit hole and, you know, read all the research and reports. But I think, you know, between Clint and I, what we have talked about is your

memories are much fresher and vivid right after an event happens. All of the agents were required to write these detailed statements, and Paul Landis did as well, as did Clint. And then to now 60 years later, memories get a little blurrier as time passes, and you have all kinds of other information now that can muddy up what your memory was at that time. So, I don't know, I say take it with a grain of salt. as opposed to Clint, his memories have never wavered. Every time he tells this story

and let me tell you, I have heard this a thousand times and I can almost repeat it verbatim because for him it's like seeing this movie in his mind and he remembers so vividly what happened and the story has never changed. So that's what I see is the difference. Yeah.

I mean, it's an odd situation. For me, I have nothing but respect for anybody who ever served in the Secret Service. I mean, it's just an extraordinary group of remarkable people. But when you look at accounts like that, it's hard not to, I mean, he must have given an inventory shortly afterwards of the things he removed from the car. He would have been asked to do that and to not include a bullet in that. Well, that's an affirmative choice and a baffling one, no? Well, he did mention, I think, in the statements that he picked up Mrs. Kennedy's hat, her purse, and his zippo cigarette lighter that had the president's a seal on it,

that were lying in the back seat. That much he did say. But one of the other things he did say in that statement, and November 30th was, I did not go into trauma room one. trauma room one was where the present body was taken when it went into the emergency room trauma room one within the emergency room was where the doctors examined him and they did not take him off the gurney because they didn't want to waste the time

and wasn't the alleged magic bullet found on connelly's stretcher according to the warren report that's what they think I don't know that they can conclusively prove that. In fact, I'm pretty sure they cannot. At the time that the bullet was found, it was found by a man employed by the hospital. He was a senior engineer. Yeah. And he found it.

And there were two gurneys in the hallway. And he was moving them. And when one of the gurneys hit the wall, he heard this clink. there was this bullet on that gurney. Now, the Warren Commission person that was interrogated him, this man, really managed to get him confused. I've read his testimony time after time after time. And he has really gotten this guy confused with the way that he asked the questions, any questions that he asked. And so you come away saying, you really don't know which of the true gurneys, there were two,

One was Conley's gurney that they had taken him from the car to trauma room two, examined him, realized he needed surgery, put him on the elevator on that gurney, took him up to the surgical ward, removed him from that gurney, put him on the surgical table, and then sent that gurney back down to the emergency entrance level. But there was another gurney there. A young boy had been brought in by his mother. And he was bleeding. I don't know what he's done, but he was bleeding. He was screaming. And so the tenants were trying to help her, and they were wiping his body and cleaning all of them. It's really a bloody mess. It appears that that might be the gurney where this hospital employee found the boat. So I'm telling you, it's, you need to, there's a lot to

all of this. Well, for me, the reason I think it's worth talking about now, to Chuck's point, his book is going to be out there five, ten years from now, along with lots of other books. The documentary about your life is going to be out there, along with in the line of fire and Oliver Stone's nonsense. And future generations are going to have a lot of material to wade through in their search for the truth. And this book, through pictures and firsthand testimony, offers, again, not to oversell it, but in my estimation, the most persuasive and most honest and most memorable recollection of the events that we have. So in the end, everybody's going to have to do their

own work and poke around and search for the truth as best they can. But this is a real service that you guys have done. And so thanks again for doing it. I think it matters. I think it matters today, and I think it's going to matter a lot down the road. Thank you. Thank you for what you do, Mike, and Chuck, too. Yes, both of you. Thank you very much. Chuck, unfortunately, is going to be let go this week. But he had a great run, and he's got literally dozens of fans who are going to miss him or at least pretend to. But thank you for saying that. I appreciate it as well. Yes.

Thank you. You can push the mute button, Chuck. It'll shut him off. If only it were that simple. I'm going to work on that. If only we all had a device that we could point at anybody and mute them. Wow. Get me one of those.

Thank you. Thank you. If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it? Make it five, and before you go, could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe?

What if your soda actually did something for you? Introducing Skypop Protein soda with 10 grams of complete protein, zero sugar, and 45 calories, Skypop protein soda offers four delicious flavors with big taste and real benefits. Light, refreshing, and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop protein soda, reach for the sky. Get your skypot protein soda now at Target, Ralph's, or GoPuff. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters.

But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Granger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Granger offers millions. of products in fast dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800 Granger, click

granger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones you get it done.