The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 364: John Dodd—Son of a Revolutionary

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

The appellate lawyer and President General of the Sons of the American Revolution drops by to discuss our nation's founding and celebrate the 250th anniversary of the Boston Tea Party by inducting Mike, Chuck, and Mike's dad, John, into the SAR.

Hey guys, it's episode number 364 of the way I heard it. 364, Chuck. I mean, that's almost 365, which would be a year. Did you do that math in your head? I did. Right there in real time. That's pretty good. Very impressive. That's a lot, you know, considering I thought we might do six when we started this whole thing. Right. We're coming up on the end of the year. This one is called Son of a Revolutionary because my guest is the great, great, great, great, great, great, great. great, great grandson of a revolutionary, I would suppose. Yes. And so are you. Yes, and so are you.

And so is my dad. Yeah. And we're going to celebrate that happy triumvirate today by getting sworn in to the sons of the American Revolution. And full disclosure, this is kind of my dad's Christmas present. He was a social studies teacher for most of his life. He loves this country and he loves American history. and we were just delighted to learn that we've got a relation going back about 10 generations or so who served in the Second Continental Congress.

If you're a fan of the podcast, you know that a guy named Jesse Hagan did a deep dive on my family and put together this enormous book that just continues to fascinate me. You know, it was really your idea, but I think it's a good one, Chuck, to wind up the end of the year with a little commemoration with regard to all of that. I really like this guy. and he really loves his gig. He's great. By the way, his name is John Dodd.

He's a lawyer, and he does this on a voluntary basis. He volunteers to be the president and CEO of the Sons of the American Revolution. He's going to serve one term for one year, this year. It happens to be the 250th anniversary of what some people call the beginning of the Revolutionary War, which is... The Tea Party. Yes, the Boston Tea Party. Yeah.

There are a number of tea parties that are out there. But this one is, I think it's the 16th of December, is the actual 250th anniversary. So we're celebrating that occasion. Chuck, you're tapping your mic. Are you concerned? Yeah, I'm looking at my voice print, and it's very, very tiny. It's tinier than it should be. Listen, it's not the size of the voice print, my friend.

It's how you use it. Okay. And that's something you should bear in mind as you listen to the conversation you're about to hear, and you'll be hearing from both my parents. About 40 minutes into it as we get sworn in. It's good fun, it's important history, and what these guys are doing, I think, matters a lot. Because deep down, whether we're related or not,

we are all sons of revolutionaries. And I'll prove it right after this. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth? You find yourself wishing we lived in a simpler time. Do you miss the rotary phone? Well, get over it.

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What is the distinction and what is your role in the former? Well, there was a schism early on. The Sons of the American Revolution began in 1876 at the Plaza Hotel in San Francisco. The group was called the Sons of the Revolutionary Sires. And so they marched in the July 4th parade that year in San Francisco. And then other groups popped up, mainly in New York and New Jersey. And so as groups oft due, there were disagreements. Skisms, I think was the word.

That's such a terrific word. Is that a revolutionary word? Do you think that came into the lexicon? I think it's a biblical word. Excuse me. But the New York group became prominent. but they wanted everybody to be under the New York group. And then so then there was a New Jersey group that didn't want to be under the New York group.

So they eventually found their own group, the Sons of the American Revolution, and the Sons of the Revolutionary Cyrus more or less became the sons of the revolution. Now, the Sons of the Revolution still exists. They're not as numerous as we are. Their requirements are that you actually had to fight. But the Sons of the American Revolution, We acknowledge all sorts of public service, not only militia service, regular troop service, but you could have given a cow to the army.

Well, I mean, it doesn't really have the same snap around the dinner table generations later, right? You know, he was there at Bunker Hill. He was there at Lexington and Concord. What did he do? What did he do? Well, he gave him a cow. Wow. It was a good cow.

It was a Jersey cow. But so then the idea being to keep the history alive, I would suppose, fundamental. I'm just trying to get to the top line of it. But the things that the organization today still shares in common with these other sort of versions of it, they're still trying to get to the same basic place. Right. They're still trying to get to the same basic place. The SR, the D-A-R, and then there's, once you go down the genealogy group road, it's a never-ending road.

There's, you know, descendants of the Army of Valley Forge. There's, you know, George Rogers Clark. There's any activity that you can think of. There's some genealogical group that claims dissent and wants to register members and I'll give you a certificate and off you go. Why do you think that is? I mean, what is it about our, I mean, I don't want you to get outside of your lane. You're a lawyer by training, which means you're capable of talking about anything.

I write all of things. I'm a writer, not a talker. What kind of law? I do appeals. I read and write. I do research. So people come to you because they're unhappy with a judgment. Or else the other side's unhappy.

Somebody's unhappy. Somebody's unhappy. And studies show somebody's always. There's no shortage of work. No shortage. So what kind of work do you do? What kind of cases do you look for primarily? What's your favorite kind of work?

I do all kinds of cases because once you've learned the system, an appeal is an appeal. research and writing and the procedures are the same. I've sort of had a notable in the area of contested adoption cases. Like when the adoption goes south, you know, we represent the adopting people. And sometimes we're appointed by the state for the people that were parents than aren't anymore. But we do all sorts of, you know, real estate business doesn't really matter. I think the adoption thing is super interesting, given the genealogy that seems to consume your hospital.

which I assume is a hobby that got out of hand, right? I mean, as the president, right? So how did that happen? I mean, how do you balance your professional life with this thing that clearly is your passion? Well, luckily, in doing appeals, I'm not in a court all day or in a deposition or something like that. So I'm here instead of sitting in my office. And so it gives me a lot more flexibility.

I just lose money because I'm not billing hours. But I started in genealogy just as a hobby, and my mother was in the D-A-R. Daughters of the American Revolution. She wasn't really active, but she was in starting like at the 50s. And so I said, well, you know, maybe I had to join the sons of the American Revolution. And she said, well, I think your grandfather was in that. And so I contacted through the website, the local chapter. And no, we've never heard of him, but sure, joined.

And so I joined. And it turned out that my grandfather was in the S-R, not the S-A-R. Just the sons of the Revolution. Right. He was in that. But as these groups are wont to do, it sort of became consuming. And you can reasonably rapidly become a chapter officer, a state officer, the national officer, and away you go. So how many members right now?

There's about 38,000 members. And there are going to be three more at the end of this podcast. That's correct. Because you're here, because after a lot of research, it's been determined that Chuck and me, and of course, by extension, my dad, who just turned 91, can be traced. We've got a relative back there. Correct. So really, that's what I want to talk about, but I've got to show you this too.

You work with Jesse, right? Hagen. Oh, that's the infamous book. Look at this thing, man. Look what he put together for me. I re-listen to that again yesterday. That's a big book. It's not just that, man. It's like maybe, I don't want to overstate it, but it's a gift I appreciate more with every passing month and year.

And the fact that it came to me from somebody who I had never met at all. Right. Not only that, but somebody who hunted you down who saw a tail number on a plane. Yeah, stalked is the impolite way to put it. But, yeah, and found you and met you at the airport because he saw the tail number. That's worth repeating. If you didn't hear the earlier episode, this guy,

I flew into a little town, I think it might have been West Virginia, and I was on a little puddle jumper, and I took a selfie for some reason, because something funny happened on the plane, and I wanted to post about it. And this guy saw the photo, took the tail number,

called, whoever he called, like Peter Falk, right? Right? And Columbo. And tracks the plane down and drives over from, I guess, Louisville. Yeah, right? And he's like literally waiting for me because you knew I'd have to

come back there. And of course I did and he gave me this book. And again, I don't want to rehash stuff that our listeners have heard before but I just I mean, it's so mind-boggling when you get to pages like this, right? And like the density of these

records and the gravestones and the certificates and the marriage and on and on and pages. page after page after page. It's amazing. Yeah. And really, he just wanted to give this to me because he's a, you know, he's a curious cat,

and it's what he does. He didn't even mention a tie to the revolution until later. And then he took a deeper dive, and he found one. And I assume you're up to speed with whatever he found because I'm still not sure that I am. Correct. Mr. Forbes was in the, I think, the second Continental Congress.

You see, that's public service. He didn't fight. And then I think he was also a judge. And so he would be a pretty well-respected member of the community to be a delegate to the Continental Congress, I would think. What happened to my family? We were in such terrific standing for so long. But yeah, my dad, I know the name Forbes. It was on the Hergen-Rather side of my family.

Elizabeth Forbes-Hurgan, rather, I think, was her name. So how many generations back did that go? I think it was nine or ten. And I guess that's... Because he was older, so that's why he didn't fight. Right. Right. So he served in the second Continental Congress,

and that was convened. Was that still in Philadelphia? Yes. I think so. Yeah, because that's where he died. He died in 1780 in Philadelphia, and he was in the Congress when he died. And what about your stock?

Hopewell, I believe. And he was a major and then a colonel in the Maryland militia. And, yeah, he fought. And he was all. also a justice of the peace. Interesting. Yeah. So I got a judge and you got a justice of the peace. Yeah. That's true. There's no wonder we argue all the time. I don't believe that's true. Sure, it's true. It's absolutely true. So nine or ten generations, that's probably typical then, right?

Because the math is the math. Right. And people live as long as they live. And so, all right. It has to be about at least about seven, you know, just depends. Right. You were saying before that really anybody who contributed to the effort in a variety of ways, but within the organization itself, I don't know, is there deference? Like, it was like, oh, well, he was a major and he was at. None whatsoever. Really? So it's all, it's all, says the guy wearing the shirt that says that's there.

None whatsoever. In fact, it's kind of interesting. So I entered under, as they say, the same person that my mother was in the DAR with, but then you add additional people. Either someone's already proved them up or in my case, I proved them up. We call them supplementals. And then so two of my supplementals were women. They donated window lids from their window sashes in New York.

What's a window let? Well, the old-time sash windows that went up and down, they had weights. Oh, sure. And that's how they went up and down. They donated their window lids to make musket balls. Window leds? Leds. I thought you said lets.

No, I'm not enunciating. No, I'm not. What's a window let? That was my question. It's like Airbnb, I guess. Right, right, right. Yeah, the first time you hear a word you've never heard before, your head goes cock-eyed. You're like, I think that guy might talk funny.

And another one of my guys, he had a forge, and they forged many of the links in the chain that went across the Hudson at his forge. Interesting. Van Kieran's forge in New York. So what kind of impact has technology had on, like, Jesse's ability to do this? your whole organization's ability to maybe find more members or just reach a little deeper. Because it seems like as you go deeper, you go wider at the same time. And so exponentially is mind-bottled. The estimates are that some 40 to 50 million Americans have someone that served in the revolution.

Wow. Isn't that amazing? Wow. And we want them all. Well, this podcast reaches literally hundreds of people. So you better gird your lord. and prepare yourself for an onslaught. What are the benefits of membership? The benefits is mainly, the benefits are, I do write for a living. But that, by the way, is the trickiest conjugation.

Yes, it is. That's so true. To be, right? I mean, that's what is it. It's like seven, seven conjuncted, M is, R, was, were, B, being, and bin. Wow. Yeah. Was there a song for that? as well when you were kid? No, there wasn't. But I remember asking Mrs. Backshider back in the day, we were digging in the Hamlet. And her question was, why is this contemplation on life and death so interesting?

And everybody had an opinion. And her opinion was the way it begins to be. To be. Right. It's the greatest possible thing to imagine in all of its different forms, past, present, and future. So that always stuck with me. Anyway, thank you for making that mistake

and giving me roughly 90 seconds of free... Content. Yes, thank you. Content. Very funny. Anyway, I mean, the point being that I think we owe those people something. Yeah. And without their sacrifices, and they did sacrifice,

we wouldn't be here. So everybody that joins, you not only just get a thing to stick on your wall, but you are honoring their sacrifices. sacrifices and acknowledging them because there are folks that haven't been, as we say, proven up yet. That's sort of the easiest way to find someone is to tap into a reasonably current D-A-R or S-A-R application and, you know, cousin on up to them. But there are many, many people who aren't established.

Cousin on up. Prove up. I'm learning a lot, man. There's some interesting things going on here. Okay. And so it's either in the Constitution or the charter or something about preserving records of the Patriot sacrifices. And so that's what you're doing. By doing that documentation, you have honored their service way back when.

So it's not forgotten today, as many things are being forgotten today. Does it worry you? I mean, to riff on that for a second, I think it's what Reagan said, we're one generation away, right, from having to learn all these lessons again. But part of what I think seems to be happening right now in real time is that even that's being compressed. And I'm sure you may have noticed in the headlines this business in the mid-east, October 7th, right? I mean, we're arguing barely a month or two after that. Not what happened, but if it happened.

Right. When you consider our capacity to forget literally what happened yesterday, juxtaposed with the challenge of your organization, which is to remember that which transpired a few hundred years ago, well, then I suppose your work's cut out for you. It is, but technology helps that. I mean, it's a hindrance because things move so fast, but it's helpful because we can get the word out. We do have YouTube, Facebook, TwitterX, social media that anybody in the audience can subscribe to.

and get information about what's going on regularly, that helps get the word out and helps us make sure that people do remember the sacrifices of our patriot ancestors. So that's the fifth time you've said the word sacrifice. Make that a little more understandable for people today because it's so easy to look at a couple of pictures and read a few captions. I go, yeah, they fought the war and it must have been. But I mean, it was monumental sacrifice on almost every level, especially. if you would talk a little bit about, you know, I think a lot of people think today we wanted to be free of England. And so we did this thing. But the we in question was actually less than 50% of the population at the time. So there was pressure and difficulty from every angle.

There was. And so to bring it home, I have two anecdotes. The first I told Chuck about, I haven't proved him up by missing a piece of paper. So I don't have a supplemental star for him. But Matthias Hanlant from New Jersey, his father sent him off to his aunt because he didn't want him getting involved in this thing. So as soon as he left the village, he promptly joined up. And so he joined the Continental Army, and he was guarding with a group of folks, the Kettle Creek Salt Works. In his pension record, I have the page here somewhere, it says he was chatting with a group of ladies when some British and Tories came on them unawares. They hung him until they thought he was dead and lifeless.

And they leave. He wakes up on the ground, and he's not dead. And he rejoins his unit. That's a lot of guts for a 16-year-old kid. Yeah, man. And now he's got a score to settle, too. Pretty much. Please tell me he found the guys who hung him later.

Say, hey, I'm back. Then he went on to the Battle of Monmouth and a whole variety of battles. And my second anecdote is a home front. anecdote from New York. One of my ancestors that fought for this whole six or seven years was Asher Devine, and the divines were Hugonauts.

There was the Weaver's colony, and there were Weavers. And so he was off fighting, and the wife was at the farm, and the Tories would come, and the loyalist, and harassed them, and unwind all his

yarn and cause trouble and steal their food, there's a letter that got handed down from generation to generation, which says that the loyalists would just steal their food. The Hessians actually paid for if they took a pig. But one group of loyalists came one day, and one of the young men, little boys, was out there playing six or eight years old. They made him drink swill of smallpox rags, and he died.

So there was some really bad feelings. And some of these loyalists, it was kind of what you saw, the Patriot. Sometimes the loyalists were a lot rougher than a British soldiers. And so those people sacrificed. Right. And of course the signers themselves. That's right. Do do do do do do do do do Well people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Roe gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding and well-established commitment issues,

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as well as the MicroWorks Foundation, and allows me to exploit my own mother in a national advertising campaign. Do what my mom did. Get yourself unlimited high-speed data for just 3499 a month at puretalk.com slash row. You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure talk. We did a story on the podcast years ago about what I would imagine the one percenters would have been, you know, right back then. And I mean, the language was different and the promises were bigger, our lives, our sacred honor. These guys had every single thing to lose. And some of them did lose, lose all of it. So that's what people forget. It wasn't just this mercantile class wanting to not pay taxes. They fought for the idea of liberty. Liberty was an idea. And it wasn't just like the Boston

Tea Party that's coming up, it just wasn't a bunch of goofballs causing trouble and mayhem and throwing some tea overboard. They were upset not just for taxes because there's a whole complicated story behind whether there really was an increase in taxes. But really what the Boston Tea Party started was it was crony capitalism. The British government wanted to ensure the East India Tea Company had a monopoly. And that kind of cut into some of the smuggling. Some of our forefathers were doing. But it wasn't just protesting a tax on tea. It's the liberty, you know, know, we've been here governing ourselves for, you know, 116, 20 or whatever, even earlier if you go back to Jamestown, right? And so we can handle it. They fought for liberty,

not just money and property. When was that obvious? Was it Thomas Payne stuff? Was it common sense? Was it the Tea Party? And what impact? Like, it's so easy to look back and go, oh, well, that was a hinge, right? That was a moment. Was the Tea Party a moment? when it happened that people could look at and go, Rutt Row? It was one of the first moments, but I was just reading that George Washington was a little upset, that they were off, you know, destroying property and these rabble rousers up in Boston.

And then later on he came around, but it was what followed the Tea Party, the coercive acts where the British government was mad that these people were doing this, and they passed all these, you know, they took over the, they could no longer elect their, governor, you know, the quartering acts, and all that stuff that happened, which then spawned the first Continental Congress. So the Tea Party, when we say the Tea Party, everybody goes Boston,

right? But there were other Tea Parts. There were other tea parties. In fact, some of our members were in Charleston, just on the second. That apparently was the first one, and then there was Boston, and then there was Philadelphia and New York, apparently up to about 10 various tea parties up and down the coast. I think, you know, as I said, you know, Boston had better social media. They had, you know, they had the Sons of Liberty. They were already fired up about a variety of things.

That's the one we all remember. And on the downside, they also had the massacre. That's right. Yeah? Right. That's another one of those words. I mean, like, how many people died in the Boston massacre? Right, just a handful.

And John Adams defended the British. Yeah. And got them acquitted. And got them acquitted. Yeah. Good lawyer. Yeah. What a time?

This is the thing that I think is the most important thing that your organization does, just simply by pushing these conversations forward. We have such a tendency, a desire to simplify all of this. Good guys, bad guys, white hats, black hats, red coats, blue coats. And when suddenly you realize that there was a time when I suppose Washington was fighting with the British and John Adams is defending the British. And like all of that had to change. Those men had to become traitors. Correct. And then you had to manage your traitorous self

in colonies where you were a minority. And so now you've got the most powerful navy in the world and your neighbors, both looking at you like you've absolutely lost your mind because you're going on and on about some notion of liberty. And what did liberty even mean back then as a concept? Probably that's when Thomas Payne's writings kind of made it gel for a lot of people. That's my guess. I'm not a historian.

I'm an amateur historian, even a lure on the wrong amateur genealogist. But I would say that two or three of these events and then Thomas Payne really brings it home. Here's, I think, another way to say when I'm trying to articulate, I'm imagining the 38,000 members that you have right now, soon to be 38,0003. Stay tuned. Chuck, me and my dad are going to get sworn in. momentarily. I bet you 100% of them assume they would be on the side of the Patriots in 1776. But as a practical matter, how could they know really? Right? I mean, until you're weighed and measured, until you're really tested, how would any of us really know? And some of them,

we now accept paying the supply tax. Because once the... colonial government took over, they taxed the citizens for supplies. And even if you were in a loyalist area, if you paid the supply tax, we let you in. Sure. Yeah, the dues. Well, listen to that. That's our ride-out. Yeah. That's, yeah. They're coming to get you, John. This is real. This is happening. Yeah. Well, imagine it's three in the morning and I'm over there in my bed. This is really the soundtrack of Los Angeles right now. Okay. So coming, back into modern times. If you could, what do you see happening in the headlines today? And what do you worry about in terms of what's happening to our country right now through the lens of your own charter?

In other words, I know how important the Constitution is. I know how important Flag Day is. It's a very interesting time for John Dodd to be in charge of an organization like that right now. It is, and the SAR has transmorgified over the years. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Somebody did that? Transmorgified? Transform. We're really an educational organization now.

We have educational programs at all levels of the school. We have contests where the fourth and fifth graders do a poster, and then they get prizes, and then it goes on up. You know, there's a chapter, a state, a national award. The middle school does a little brochure about founding. documents. Then we have the high schools do an iterations contest. In fact, I commend everybody, anybody that thinks about speaking, go to our YouTube page and check some of these orators. It's amazing. All right, let's talk about that because I did go through your notes carefully prepared

by Chuck. One of the things I yellowed up was best oralist. You were the best oralist when you were in law school. I mean, congratulations. That did, yeah, there were some jokes then about the first place, and then the third-placed oralist was a young lady. Well, well, you know. I would see it in 40 years, but no. I miss her. Gosh, I miss that girl.

What an oralist. But I used to be a pretty good speaker, but, you know, now I'm a writer. And, you know, once you just write all the time, you write all the time. But, I mean, if you think about both of those talents as skills that a society, either values or not. skills that can either be honed or ignored. That to me is one of the most interesting things to contemplate. Like when you read the letters written by common soldiers in the Revolution and the Civil War

and compare them to letters written today. I'm not so sure we've evolved. And if someone was, I don't know if it's your podcast or somebody else's podcast talking about cursive, they don't even teach cursive. Yeah, don't teach you. If you folks that want to really kind of dig deep dive, the pension records are on full three. It's a paid service. It's also owned by ancestry.

But, you know, the pension records, they're all incursive. They're not block printing. Right. You know, because what they would do is say, I was in this battle, I was in that battle, I was wounded, you know, like a pension, you know, or the spouse comes in and he did this and that and the other. All that stuff's incursive. How are we going to decipher that if we can't read cursive? Well, right. I mean, I talk a lot about what happens when you remove the art from a thing, whether it's the industrial arts or it's like the first thing to go oftentimes is beauty.

And like I can write cursive. I write cursive all the time, but it's not pretty. I don't have pleasant handwriting to read, you know. And my dad's handwriting is better than mine. and I bet his dad's was better than his. And every now and then, today, when I see somebody, like, I got a handwritten note the other day from somebody just thanking me for doing something.

And I don't remember exactly what it said. I just remember thinking, this is so beautiful that I really wondered if it was, you know, computer generated. It wasn't. So I guess maybe the point is, you know, to elevate a thing like that, you need to use it and practice it every day. And to elevate history,

you need to contemplate it every day. Every day. I think so. And so because if we don't do that, then the next generation is going to believe, you know, 1619 or some other gobbledygook, which is just not accurate at all. And so we have folks that go into the schools in their colonial dress, talk to the kids, bring in a lot of, usually replica artifacts.

We're amassing a very nice collection of real artifacts in Louisville. but they talk about these things. And school district by school district, you know, sometimes they can bring in the musket and talk about what lock, stock, and barrel means. Right. But you can't in California. Nope, can't do it.

Can't do it unless you get the principal does like a wink, wink, gna-n-nod, you know, that kind of thing. So there would be called the Traveling Trunk Program. I encourage any educators out there of elementary school students to, if you want colonial folk to come in and talk to your kids, to find your local chapter. If they have that program, they'd be happy to be there. Well, I'll double down on your encouragement and raise you beg.

I'm begging you to do that. My dad was a history teacher. My social studies eighth grade. You'll meet him in what, Chuck, 15 minutes or so? About that, yeah. Let me know when to go. And that business, you know, of bringing the past to life is so tactile. It just seems like so many times the way in is a cannonball, a musket ball, a letter,

an artifact, you know. I assume there's a museum of sorts under your tutelage. Well, what we're doing, it started off being called the Center for Advancing America's Heritage for just this same reason. It's not being taught in schools. And this was conceived like 15 years ago.

And we eventually morphed from where we were. We got a new building. We're right across from the Louisville Slugger Bat Museum. And so we have the genealogical library, but we're building a education center and museum. And it's going to be transportable via the internet to classrooms here and there. It'll be something where you physically go in and see the exhibits,

but it's not just looking at a bunch of stuff. You know, there's things for people to do and, you know, films and all sorts of things like that. But a lot of that will be transportable. So teachers, homeschoolers, anybody can get some of this information. and make it alive in their classroom. And so if people are interested in that, you go to our SAR webpage, look under Foundation. There's a little click, there's a nine-minute video on the museum

that we're just starting right now. We're starting the infrastructure part next month. I swear, John, like five, ten years ago, I would have said, that's nice, right? That's a nice thing to do for the fun of doing it. Today, I think it's mission critical. you mentioned 1619 right I mean there's no need to get needlessly political but when I look at the CRT stuff and I look at all that other stuff it's like this conversation Douglas Murray said this the other day's great quote

he's like this conversation is so 20th century because back then you could have your opinion about a thing and I could have my opinion about a thing and we might not agree on the thing today we don't have our own opinions we have our own facts and all of these things are being presented with all of the certainty and all of the weight of whatever a credentialed, whether it's a teacher's union or it doesn't matter what it is. It's being presented as dogma. Right. And I don't know how reasonable people and concerned parents can push back against it

other than to go out and find organizations like yours who are making a persuasive case for these ideas that, I mean, I hate to say it, but that it must be. keep you up at night to see the guts of what we're talking about fall out of favor. Things that used to be common saying the Pledge of Allegiance in class. You know, eighth grade, we all learned the Constitution. Do they even do that anymore? I don't know. Memorized the Gettysburg Address. You know, these, you had the, you're a person just. Oh, Selena Zito was just on. Yeah, I miss it that. Yeah, I'm not the Gettysburg Address.

Well, as an oralist, you know, you might want to reflect, not on Lincoln. Because Lincoln was a, he was a great writer. Right. Apparently, he sounded like a tall gungly guy. Or a score in seven years ago. Right. Like he sucked in a bunch of helium out of a balloon. But Edward Everett. Yeah.

That guy talked for two and a half hours without notes. Right. I mean, wow. That's when the, yeah. Sometimes we get a dinner speaker that 20 to 30 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes after dinner talk. Yeah. Well, you know what?

It's funny. I still get hired once in a while to speak. here and there. Not for dinners anymore, though. No, because of the stories are just too graphic. Yeah, the Dirty Job stories. It's just, it's not a great D. Chess Teef. Anyway, go ahead.

You were making a larger. Larger, but anyway, so, you know, we're embarking on this museum. Hopefully it'll be open by July 26. And, you know, it's basically our gift to the nation. And anybody that's fed up with their alma mater might want to give us some money. We'd be happy to take the nation. Very timely. Very timely.

You know, it's not lost on me either that in Louisville, really right in the same block where you're talking about is the baseball museum. And how interesting that America's pastime has evolved to the point where it's lost legions of fans for all kinds of different reasons. You know, you can look at everything from free agency to just the money, just to the lack of loyalty to a town and the way, and so forth. But to try to preserve the baseball that people think of when Casey was at the bat

and trying to preserve the kind of history that we genuinely believe our country was built upon, they require museums. They require those talismans and artifacts, and they require docents. Do you see yourself as a docent sometimes? No, I'm just an amateur historian. We have a wealth. folks that are very deep divers into all sorts of minutia about the American Revolution. Who do you most admire, both largely anonymous and published? I mean, if you could just flick

your fingers and have that material where those people introduced to this generation in a compelling way, who would be on your list? The Patriots? I mean, well, yes, yes. The people who have written accurately about our history, whose books, if widely disseminated, would have the kind of impact or the same sort of impact you would like to see S-A-R have. You know, I don't know, to tell you the truth. I have piles and piles of books. Who is it McCulloch? David McCullough.

David McCullough, yeah, great. Probably. Yeah. You know, and what we're trying to do is make some of that stuff come alive for folks that aren't going to read those books. And it's kind of a shame we have to do that. But, you know, it was a dirty job. You know, do it.

I mean, look, it's a great thing that you are doing it. I'm just struck again as I look at this thing you guys did for me. And I think about my aunt Betty. Betty Jevinazzi was her name. And she did something very similar, but she flew. She flew to every graveyard that was relevant. She took pictures, like with a Polaroid and put this thing. It took her 20 years to come up with nothing quite this.

comprehensive, but at least a roadmap to where we came from. And Jesse did that independently. He didn't know that your aunt had done that. No. No idea. No idea. He just did it. Well, I think the world's a better place that curious cats like you were wandering around in it. What's the goal for the SAR moving forward? What's the realistic hope? Realistic hope, you know, double our membership in the next 10 years. I think the 250th is probably going to bring us a lot of folks. You know, if you look at the web page for the official 250 commission, they're not doing what we're doing. No, are we talking about 250 for the Tea Party? No, 250 for the...

For the existence of the whole organization. But literally December 16th is the 250th anniversary of the Boston Tea Party. And I'll be... You see my confusion. Well, it's sort of the beginning of the revolution. Right. And so we mark that as the beginning of the revolution of the decade of revolution. And so we have celebrations and things all the way along, and that's the first. And I'll be going back to Boston from sunny southern California, Thursday morning.

But the importance is that if we commemorate these various events, then people will see us. They'll not just see us, but they'll see the founders that brought us. And that's the important thing. You know, it's always a kick, you know, the guys in the colonial uniforms marching down the street and all the kids take pictures. And they want the pictures with the guys. And it's a lot of fun. But once we get them hooked, then we can convince them about the ideas behind the guys marching down the street in the colonial uniforms. First taste is for free.

No better way to do that than to climb on the beaver and throw over some tea. To throw over some tea. Right? The beaver. That's right. It's the name of the ship. Yeah. And it made it in.

Well, on that note, I think it's time to toss to a commercial and get your dad in here. Oh, by all means. Get my mom, too. She'll be there. Oh, good. All right, so, yeah, we're going to set up a TV and try and zoom 3,000 miles away with my dad who doesn't hear so great. And my mom, who's typically pretty liquored up by this time of day. So we'll stay with us, folks.

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Don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers now. Hey-haw! All right, so we're back. If you're just listening, I'll try and describe the scene for you. Chuck and I are sitting across from John Dodd and up on a monitor in front of us, vis-a-vis a computer, are my mom and dad.

My dad, John Michael Rowe, and me, Michael Gregory Rowe, and my producer, Charles Lewis Klausmeier. Very good. Are all about to become members of the sons of the American Revolution with the president of the aforementioned organization sitting right here ready to swear us in. Dad, how are you feeling? With my hands. At least he heard you. Let's put your hands up where everybody can see him.

We don't want anything untoward happening here. Mom, how's your day going? Speak for yourself. See? Are you sure you want them in this organization? Right. 85 and 91. My God.

So, Dad, look, I just really thought this would be, I don't know, kind of fun, but as a social studies teacher, you know, I was just sitting here talking with John for the last 45 minutes. And so much of what he was telling me, I learned from you as a small boy. And I don't know how much you know about your own lineage. But you have a relative who was in the Second Continental Congress. Congress, and that seems like a big deal. So, you know, if I were there, we'd have a parade, but I'm not. So we're just going to swear you in if you're up for it. I wonder how many generations ago that was that James Forbes was in the Second Continental Congress.

I think it was 10. 10? Wow. I think so. If I'm wrong, no one will know. I can confirm that with Jesse Hagan. It's on the papers. Who did the genealogy, yeah. Yeah, we got the papers.

a long time. It's 10. And it's really fun, Dad. Where's that big book, Chuck? Put it over there. Oh, behind me? Yeah, over there. No, never mind. That big giant book, these guys put together for me,

is just really similar to what on Betty did, only not quite as involved. But for what it's worth, she was right about everything that she had to say. Going all the way back with the hand spikers and the Hergenruthers and all these other crazy people you're apparently related to. They weren't really crazy. Maybe a bit of eccentric, some of them, but... How do you know they weren't crazy?

This is hundreds of years ago? Well, I think it would have leaked down into dad, and he's not crazy. Is that what happens, Sean? Leakage? Or it skips 10 generations to you. Every 10th generation, great. Oh, that one. It's on the crazy one. All right, well, I can't suck up his whole day, so why don't you take over,

and we'll go through the process and, you know, Merry Christmas in advance, Dad. Okay, if you'll all raise your right hand, but not your mom. compatriots John Michael Rowe, Michael Gregory Rowe, and Charles Lewis Klausheimer,

do you, as a descendant of the Patriots and Heroes of the American Revolution reaffirm your ancestors' faith in the principles of liberty in our constitutional republic? I do. I do. And will you pledge to support

the National Society, Sons of the American Revelation. I will. I will now take great pleasure in presenting you your membership certificates. Yours will be in the mail. You can lower your hand.

And then I will also present you the rosettes. Thank you. The rosette is the color of George Washington's uniform which remind the blue and buff and you can wear it on your shirt collar or a sport coat

and please wear it proudly. So everybody knows that you're a member of the Sons of the American Revolution. You see that, Dad? Hey, how about that? That's a rosette for you right there. My chest with pride. That's right. And we welcome all three of you into our organization.

And thank you for having us here today. Thank you for coming on to the podcast. A Rosette? Rosette. R-O-S-E-T-E? Yes. Not R-O-W-E-S-E-T-T. No.

Well, there you go, Dad. It's something else you can wear it. You can pin it on your. your shirt as soon as we get it to you. It sounds like something to almost brag about, or maybe just mention anyway, when somebody says, oh, tell me about that little pin on your lapel. I've been in airports, and people ask what it is, and I launch into a diatribe on the Suns American Revolution.

It's George Washington's colors. Oh, blue and white? Blue and gold. And gold. And buff. And buff. Are they the Ukrainian colors, too? No, they're yellow.

They're yellow, I think. This is buff. This is buff. What's the difference between buff and... It's kind of beige. It's yellow that's been buffed out. It's out some of the yellow. John Dodd, can you hear me, John?

Yes, sir. I have been told, and perhaps you can find out or already know, if a John Rowe fought on Bunker Hill or Breeds Hill in the Revolution. We can check. Who told you that, Dad? I think my eldest sister, I think it's in her genealogy book. Where was Breeds Hill? Breeds Hill is Bunker Hill.

Same thing. It's, yeah, it's really not Bunker Hill. It's really Breed's Hill. Right. Do you know, John, that John Quincy Adams, when he was seven or eight years old, watched the battle of Bunker Hill with Abigail Adams live? Wait a minute. So they were childhood.

No, John Quincy Adams was about seven or eight years old. John Quincy Adams, that's John Adams's son. He and his mom watched the Battle of Bunker Hill live, which is an incredible thing to think of. And then, you know, years later, he became the, you know, the president and therefore the commander-in-chief. Was he six? John Quincy? Somewhere around there. We'll find a historian somewhere.

Not here. We don't know. Not here. Any other questions, Dad? You got the guy here who's in charge of the whole organization. You're their newest member. You can ask him anything as a retired social studies teacher. No, I appreciate knowing this.

And with a dollar and a quarter, I can get a cup of coffee. I don't know where you're buying coffee. Yeah, you're going to get half a cup of coffee. And with your rosette, you can get some attention. Yeah, the women will be. Envious. They'll be all over you. They'll be all over you.

And mom, as a writer of some acclaim, who has said many times, including on this podcast, that all things are content, I'll look forward to a story in your next book that somehow puts a bow on all of this and puts John Dodd in the very best possible life. I'll do my best. I've been taking notes, as you can say. Excellent. John Dodd, are you a Californian? Yes, I am. I'm born in Newport Beach. I've been stuck here all my life.

What was that? Yes, he was born in Newport Beach, stuck there all his life. Newport Beach. I don't live there now. I was just born there. Yeah, we've been to a beach in California. What was that one? I don't know, but the water was dead.

Monaco. Mono. Lake. It was called, I believe. No, that's a mountain lake. Mono Lake, yeah. Yeah, that's not really a beach. That's just some sand on a side of it.

of a lake. With sandflies. It seems like the water was, like, dead. It was so filled with something that it was useless. Oh, yeah. Salt. It's the salt and sea, right? No, it's like the salt sea.

They grow brine shrimp there because it's so salty. Yeah. Really? Yeah. We were going to do a dirty jobs at the salt and sea, but it was so bad. The weather was so bad, and it was, they had another algae bloom. All the fish were dead, you know, they just scoop them up by the tons of them, tons of dead fish. It's a foolish way.

to end an otherwise enlightening podcast, dead fish and dead water and irrelevant beaches. But I wouldn't have it any other way. But the memory of our patriot ancestors lives on. Way to bring it home, John. Way to land the plane. It really does. You know, I've never lived with a son of the American Revolution before. This is going to be a new experience.

John, I want to thank you for your research on this. Oh, you're welcome. It was a staff genealogist Jesse Hagan who did the research. He's the same guy who put together this giant book, Dad. I think both of you, John. Here, this thing. Did I ever show you this? Holy crap.

You did, honey. You did. When we came to you. I know. I know. I'm going to bring it back over the holidays. We're going to go through everything. It's an amazing read.

You're going to need a magnifying glass in about five hours, but you're going to love it. Wow. I don't know if our part. It's big enough. We'll make room. Okay. That would be very, guys. Very good reading.

Nice meeting you. Thank you very much. Nice meeting you. You're welcome. All right, guys. I'll call you later. Love you. Don't hang up yet.

Bye, bye. Congratulations, Mom. You're going to bed with the son of an American Revolution. A son of a revolutionary. Okay. Chuck, thank you. Thank you, John. That was awesome.

All right. Thank you for that, really. He will discuss that in detail for the rest of his life. May it be a long one, but yeah, this is, he'll love this. I'm going to get this to him. He's going to go through this. And if you can get any good phone, that'd be great. Because he's like a dog with a bone.

It won't stop. Yeah, he's really going to enjoy it. And we need to find out, like, where the nearest chapter is to where he lives. And they live in Baltimore? They live in, yeah. They're in Baltimore County. Yeah. We're actually just in the city.

Yeah. Awesome. Anything you wanted to say that you didn't say? I mean, aside from those words you made up. You know, I have one thing that we didn't mention that I think is particularly interesting that you said to me when we spoke last week, which was that there are members of this organization in other countries. Right. Oh. If you could just speak to that for a moment. So we have 600 members of the France Society because, as you know, the French helped us throughout. the period or shortly after the beginning. Huguenots? No, it was after the Ugans. The French kicked out the Uganax. Oh, right.

That was a couple hundred years before. So it's very interesting because we have members, there's about 600 members in France that are direct descendants of their people. And what's also really interesting is that a lot of the French members are descended from officers. And back then, to be an officer, you had a title. So a lot of these folks still have a chateau. And we have a youth exchange program for young people from ages like 14 to 20, where we swap, they alternate, they go there for a summer or three weeks and they come here. And most of the people that have gone over there got to stay in a chateau.

And then we're also having a great trip. We're going to France this April to honor Rochambeau and Vérgen and all these people. We're going to spend two weeks going through the War Valley and Dijon and all that. And you pile out of the bus and lay a wreath. Now, is that open to members? Members. Any member, I'm going to give Chuck a flyer. You're pretty busy.

Give them a flyer. But also, anybody that gets an application in process before we fill up our hundred people, maybe I know somebody maybe they can go. You could maybe put a little too much show. So where do people go exactly who would be a part of this? SIR.org There's a little box, click here to

join and it'll explain. And the easiest way is to find your local chapter because every local chapter, theoretically we're all volunteers, has someone to help with your genealogy just like Jesse did. And so as he suggested

in the podcast, you can gather bunch of information and wait till the ancestry's got up your free two weeks and see if you can you can fill in the gaps but then we also have we have members in Spain the king of Spain was a member when he was a prince I think he had to quit when he became the king was Prince Philippe now he's King Philippe King Philippe was a member of the Sons of the American Revolution isn't that interesting fascinating and then we have members in Spain now that are Spaniards we have members that are in many of the other countries, but France and Spain are the biggest ones. But scattered around Europe, there are others.

Yeah, Ireland. Ireland, yeah, and we have people in Britain. Explain that. How is that possible? A lot of them are expats. Maybe they went there for business. But if you're descended from someone that did service, you're eligible. I mean, Winston Churchill is eligible. Prince Harry is eligible through Diana.

So I think we tried to contact him several years ago before he was in the news so much. Yeah. We figured he's up for anything. He might join us. It seems that way. That guy will join it. But that's all the requirements that you rendered service. It doesn't matter what country you're in now.

It doesn't matter what country you're born in. You know, God bless you. We want you. Well, look, and the way I would say it is if you care about the history of this country, and if you're just naturally curious and you want to be around some like-minded people you know what it's one of those organizations that no secret handshakes

no uh weird stuff you read about none of the weird stuff how much stuff have you read about that's weird are you kidding me about this organization nothing oh oh okay I've taken a deep dive on a number of like

I mean you think you're joining a club right you pay the dues you get the handshake and next thing you know you're deep and eyes wide shut Everybody's wearing a mask. No, no. And you're just there. You know, it's just...

We'll talk more later. Okay. Yeah. John Dodd, thank you so much for making the time and for swearing my dad into an organization with royalty. That sentence I never thought I'd hear myself say. Well, thank you for having me.

Anytime. Okay, gentlemen. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Talk to you next week. If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe?

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