The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 369: Gabby Reece is Not in Compliance

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

The volleyball legend, fitness leader, podcaster, New York Times bestselling author, and serial entrepreneur talks about raising her girls with a do-it-yourself attitude, why it's important to eat clean and lift heavy things, and how to be a good citizen without being a conformist and still saying yes.

Hello, Chuck. Hello, Mike. I'm still a little energized from that conversation. A little amped up is how I feel as well. Gabby Reese is awesome, and she is not in compliance. Gabby Reese is not in compliance. Yes, that Gabby Reese, the six-foot three-inch tall, Gabby Reese, who popped up early 90s playing volleyball in a way that was,

dare I say, impossible not to watch. I would agree with that. tremendously. She is a tall drink of water. She is a beautiful woman and she is really, really smart. Yeah, she's smart and she's a terrific mom and by all accounts a fantastic wife. Her as famous husband, of course, is Laird Hamilton of the gravity-defying surfing. I mean, I don't even know what to say about the guy. And honestly, it's funny, she doesn't either. At one point in the conversation, she's like, yeah, he just doesn't. nobody does what he does, really. Well, she described him, she said that, you know, when she was playing ball, she was in the 1% of the people who were playing ball.

And she described her husband as a guy who was in the 1% of the 1% of those in his sport. And together, I do think they are in like the 0%. I mean, they're just such an interesting couple. And they've got so many plates spinning. And on a personal level, This is the second time I've met Gabby Reese. The first time was 18 years ago. It was a very brief meeting, and it ultimately helped lead to my partnership with Mary Sullivan,

who Gabby is still friendly with. So it was kind of a reunion of sorts. It's a reunion that she does not recollect at all because we... You know, if only one person shows up at a reunion, is it a reunion? Or is it just kind of a tragedy? It was a hell of an impression you left. Yeah. Well, she left a hell of an impression on us, and I dare say she will you as well. Gabby Reese, by the way, good, clean fun with all sorts of C words in this exchange.

But it begins with a rumination on compliance, which you will hear shortly right after this. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the band? with you find yourself wishing we lived in a simpler time. Do you miss a rotary phone? Well, get over it. The genie is out of the bottle. The poop is out of the goose, I'm afraid. AI is here to stay, and every business in the country is asking themselves the same question. How do we make it work for us? Well, the answer to that question varies, but you'll find it in a free guide that you can get right now at netseweet.com slash Mike. It's called demystifying

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And while you're there, pick up their free business guy, demystifying AI. It's filled with super useful information. And again, it's free at netsuite.com slash mike. That's netsuite.com. Gabby, thanks for coming here. Oh, Mike. It's so good to see you again, apparently. Yeah, we were just connecting the dots.

Gabby and I had an unforgettable meeting about 18 years ago, which she completely forgot. You know, I try not to blur reality and fantasy. So I'm like, I've seen him so much. Have I really seen him? Or did I just see him on the television? You know, it's weird because I could say the same thing. You know, I let's see. When would I have first seen you smashing a volleyball?

all over in that. 1999. 92. Right. So you know what I was doing in 92? I was hosting the graveyard shift at the QVC cable shopping channel. Come on. I was selling.

What were you pimping? Whatever they put in front of me. Was it manned stuff, electrical goods? Or were you doing? Didn't matter. You weren't doing like Tupperware items. Sure. I was doing collectible dolls.

I was doing the health team infrared pain reliever. The AMCOR negative ion generator. That kind of makes sense. The cat sac. Wait, what's a cat sac? sack. It's like an aluminum foil type sack. What did they make the balloons out of? Well, it's a sack for your cat, Gabby, of mylar. So it's a... Because your cats need sacks. I mean... I mean, listen, people think they understand the extent of the oddness of the world. But until you really spend

like hour after hour watching a home shopping channel, like circa 1989, and you know, it's the stuff that didn't sell during the day that they used to train the new guy at 3 a.m. There's no training program. They just put a thing in front of you and you talk about it until they tell you to stop and they bring you another thing. And as somebody who's paid or dues in TV and probably been in a few awful exchanges, bad interviews, you've probably committed your shit. You've probably done some things you'd like another shot at, right? Absolutely. That's what my life was.

live TV for three years. Yeah, but look what it did for you. Do they tell you to pick up and touch the product the whole time? Yeah, there was, like the basic advice going in was, you're talking to a friend. You're just talking to a friend. Don't think about the millions of people that are watching. Just imagine you're talking to your friend and they've never seen a pen before and you're holding the pen. And you're really excited for your friend because they're about to get up to speed with a writing implement for the first time in their short unhappy life and you're about to change all that for them and then they'd send you out and you do your best and do you think that they really hired you though because obviously your natural communicator but you do have a beautiful voice and it was like oh these

ladies at home we're going to want to have sex with this guy right can i just say i mean come on no right like young to the ladies necessarily i cast a very wide there's always that but can you see young mike over there thinking like i'm really selling this stuff Well, because I've known her so long, I've seen the stack of photos that he's gotten when he was on the air doing that. People who would send him stuff at three in the morning. What's the craziest sort of stalkery, fan mail-y kind of thing that you've endured? Let's just talk about that for a couple of minutes and see where it goes, because people, they don't understand. Everybody knows there's unhealthy dynamics between, you know, fame does weird things to weird people.

but I got to imagine you must have a file. I have to be honest, I think because I came originally, ultimately through sport, I had it pretty good. And then also if you talk about in person, because I'm pretty tall. Six through. Yeah. There's a sort of a weird natural protection that has really followed me. I did have a gentleman who...

I know exactly where this is going, because any story that starts with a gentleman is going to feature someone who isn't. Oh, it was really interesting. Interesting. So he would write letters and you could tell there was a manicness to them. And these were not the only letters I got. But this one was a little concerning and it would call the office. And then I would go to the Third Street Promenade. This is in my 20s. And I'd go to the movies. This is in the days when you went to the movie theater. I'd have a down day, no training. I'd love to go to movies. And the guy'd be in the movie theater. He showed up a couple times. And then I one time was Christmas shopping at like the Beverly Center and he was there. And so I'd talk. tucked into the men's shoe store, because that's where all the guys who would actually defend you or, like, probably the sporting goods. Good thinking. One of the two, but there were guys in suits that were selling men's shoes, and they seemed like

they'd go, right? So I went in there and I was like, you guys, I have this guy. And he had really creepy eyes, and I'd have to have sometimes a guy at the game because of this guy with a gun. So I had that. But the interesting thing is I actually met Laird, while this was happening, I met Laird in 95. I was at an indoor volleyball professional game watching some friends of mine. I wasn't playing.

I was with Laird. I saw this guy. And I kind of reacted. Laird's like, what's up? And I didn't really want to tell him. And so I told him and he goes, oh, okay. And fast forward to the game's winding down. And Laird's like, okay, I want you to stay with your friends.

I'll be back. And I guess he escorted the guy to his car. And he's like, oh, I know where you live. And I know who you are. How's that field? Does that feel good? Do you like that? Does that feel good? And it flipped the guy out. But he later then actually got arrested and stuff. And it wasn't just me. He apparently fancied a girl from UCLA whose dad might have been the chief of police. So I think that that took care of itself. But I've gotten off the hook pretty, I think it's different for actresses. You're in there at people's homes. You watch them in your underwear. There's an intimacy that people think that they have with you. Actresses, oftentimes, it looks better on screen if you're a little more compact. And it's this. kind of fantasy thing. I don't know that I represented that. I wonder, I mean, were men in general,

and are they today more intimidated of you, by you, just because of your stature? Did you find that growing up men were more deferential, bolder, more circumspect? What? It's always the little guy that's like, I don't care how tall you are. And they just get in there. They just get in there. I was like, I love your spirit. And all the tall guys, I was like, why are you? you with women that fit under your armpit. But I think it felt a lot oftentimes like guys were like, oh, we could be friends. So younger, harder, as you become an adult female, you know, there was a lot of opportunity. But I think a lot of times you're not everyone's cup of tea. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. When you say that you've been in their homes, that's really the nub of it, right?

You've been in their kitchen. You've been in their bedroom. All of that was weirdly true. in the home shopping industry too. Yeah. But flash forward to 3 a.m. Now you're talking about insomniacs and reprobates and lonely hearts. Sad, yeah. And to be fair, like maybe nurses working shift and people with the TVs on. But you form a very, it's like Gene Shepard, the guy that wrote a Christmas story.

You used to have a radio show and he called them night people. And when you form a bond with night people, they form a bond with you. and the gifts and the talismans that they'll send you and the letters. I think the time I realized that the world was not really what I thought it was. I started receiving cassette tapes from a woman who would watch my show, my shift, why they have a show. So I'm standing there trying to make sense of a collectible doll on live TV. Unbelievable.

And I can hear myself talking and she's holding a little cassette recorder and she's talking to me as I'm talking to her through the TV. TV because she thinks I'm talking to her in code. Yeah. Oh, code. Right. What was the code? What were you saying? Well, that's unclear. It's, I think it's just a mix of semaphore and charades, right? But that's a common thing with, with people, with stalkers or whatnot. They think that you are talking directly to them. Yes. But the added wrinkle of this, aside from just the weirdness of home shopping, is she cute? Just kidding. Sorry. That's inappropriate. It's amazing what she was, you know what? She was okay. There you can make some allowances.

It's like with the short guys. They're the ones that get all up in there. It's not like, oh, no, poor pathetic. It's like, no, you seem pretty normal, actually, except for that part of your brain that's not hooked up to your... Reality? That thing. Did it make you nervous?

What she said didn't freak me out, but hearing myself in the background on the tape did. And then because she was crazy, you know, she would confess things to me on the tape. She would tell me jokes and laugh hysterically. And then she would tell me sad stories and sob uncontrollably. Sometimes she would pleasure herself. And when you hear yourself talking in the background trying to sell a collectible doll,

while that's going on in the foreground? That's showbiz. She's like, oh, micro, micro. Wow. Yeah, no, I have, if you're sharing that kind of story, I don't have, I have nothing quite that interesting. I think also people don't realize that when you're a male figure, never mind, just go to office, a person with a nine to five job, I think it's a lot more challenging for men to rebuff women where it's sort of really our right as a female to be like, oh, I appreciate that, but

yeah, no thanks. Where for men, I feel you have to sort of try to wiggle around and accommodate and protect her feelings and be like, oh, oh, yeah, lovely, you know, okay. It's an interesting, that is in the one place where the rules separate and a girl can be like, no thanks. And for men, it's like you're still trying to be sensitive to let her down easy or nice. And maybe not get sued. Yeah, well, there's that now. Right. Yeah, a few bad apples, a few bad gentlemen, actually make it like a blanket.

Who fancy the wrong girls. Or make it a blanket that that's how guys are. See, I always say half the best people I know are men. And so when women are like, men, I'm like, no, a few bad people, a few men that have, you know, either abuse their power, their size, their position, whatever. But typically you find men trying to be kind or nicer, like, oh, I appreciate that. You know, maybe not. I mean, I know that statistically, I think it's interesting that something like 59% of all relationships that are currently underway began in the workplace.

That goes back decades. But how is that supposed to happen now when you think about remote work being a thing combined with hashtag me too and just a whole general sense of, oof, the sounds you're about to hear is the ice cracking under your feet, dude. Heads up, okay? Yeah. How are people ever going to hook up anymore? Well, that's why they have overcompensation of swiping,

which is a whole interesting dynamic in itself, right? So this goes back even to heart health. So for females, which I understand, I am one, and I've benefited from the notion of equality. So in the 50s and 60s, we didn't have any really cardiovascular issues. Well, I think we've surpassed men now in heart issues. Why? Because we live the same way, stress and work and all the stuff.

Okay, that's one. Now we say, okay, we want total equality in dating and I want it my way and this way. Cool, but they don't look like they don't go four steps down from that, which is what? Men generally, biologically, prefer variety by nature, just natural, given the option. And if a couple is going to meet for the first time and engage in sexual intercourse, the chances of the man having greater pleasure easier is pretty high compared to the female. So now we have a situation where I do think generally, for the most part, women are actually getting less of what they need and want with this sort of sexual freedom.

So it's just a very interesting dance that you see where where do you meet people? You're asking for certain things. Men have been paralyzed. And I don't know. I always say if we keep going the way we're going, women are not going have anyone that they want to have sex with. Well, you're going to win every battle and lose the war. That's right. And so I think we have, because there is no nuance, we haven't had these sort of little parts in the conversation of

of talking about the positive things about masculinity and encouraging men to develop those. I mean, it's the same thing you do on the show when you talk about skills. Right. Right? It's like, yeah, you can, you know, be all good at all this electronic stuff. But if they turn the power out, who's going to really help everybody? It's people with actual skills. You're right.

So I'm secretly glad I'm a little older, but I do have three daughters. And I'm like, wow, I don't know how we're going to all navigate this collectively. Well, back to masculinity for a second, which I'm not. I mean, I don't know if we were rolling when we said this, but it's got to be interesting for Laird. He's got three daughters and you. He is, you know, I mean, I hate to say it, whatever a man's man means, you know,

he seems to embody all of that, the kind of guy that would tell you to sit tight with your friends and walk and creepy stalker back to his car and impart a message that would resonate in such a fashion that you never see that schmuck again, that kind of dude. Yeah. How's he dealing with all this estrogen? He's confused.

I feel for the guy. I really do. I see him. He just took one of my daughters to school today. And he comes back and he just looks confused. But it's so beautiful because it's true mastery. You know, like I see him as an older male with younger men. And he just kind of looks back and he's like, oh, yeah, you're going to figure out.

You can't figure it out. First, it starts with your mate, right? Laird has this line with me. I'll be like, okay, we're going to go in or it'll be ready in 15 minutes or I'll be ready in 15 minutes. And he goes, okay, let me get this straight. Is this man minutes or woman minutes, right? And I stop. And instead of fighting it, I think, and I go, yeah, that's about right.

15 minutes on a clock is usually closer to 19 to 24 for a woman if you're lucky. So Laird always is like, I'll be the guy in the car whenever everybody is ready. Just waiting. And he's in there. He has a podcast on or doing something that he isn't going to stress out. But there's something really beautiful about, to me, observing somebody with all these kind of really masculine traits that has come to the place to understand women in the way that you aren't going to understand and you accept that and you appreciate that.

Can you teach it or do you just have to absorb? Another guy? Well, I'm just thinking, you know, Laird grew up on an island. You grew up on an island. I did, yeah. It seems like your geography would dictate your relationship with skill in a way maybe that's different. Yeah. Then here in L.A., you've got a phone and everybody's got a guy, right? I got a guy for that. You know, hopefully, maybe you'll see him in two, three days, maybe five, who knows. But yeah, talk about the business of skill and how it informs masculinity and all of us, really. It's interesting. I shared this with you earlier. Like, Laird in our house, well, we have kind of an internal unspoken rule. our house, which is like, if you can do it yourself, do it. Whether it's carry your bag,

it's just like do it yourself. If I'm going somewhere and even when I go into a hotel, if the bag is light enough and small enough and not keeping anyone from work, if you know what I mean, do it yourself. And Laird and I are really lined up on that. So if there's something he can fix, which is a lot of things, he'll do it. And like when I left today, he was chainsawing some palms or something. But I asked him... How interesting. She remembers the chainsaw vividly. But not what he was taking it to. Could have been anything. Could have been the couch. Might have been a sofa. Yeah, yeah. Could have been the house. I'd have been my daughter's cell phone. No, that would be the truck probably running over. I've seen that chucked in the bushes a few times.

But I think it's like, I've asked Laird this, I go, why do you know how to fix that? And he's like, because you just couldn't go out and buy a new one. So I think it's a combination of different time. Also, no resources and no stuff. Here, everything is like, okay, I can order it. I don't know. it feels like people have they readily spend more maybe but for Laird it was like okay so I think it's that and for me you could do whatever you could do yourself you did I don't I definitely don't have the skill set that Laird has as far as fixing things but it was actually more about the value of things do do do do do do do do Dumb well people are still raving raving I tell you about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my

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Pure Talk. I want to circle back real quick. It was a parenthetical, but it just, it was like an empathy bomb. What did you say? Oh, you said, as long as it's light enough for me to carry, or I'm not doing someone else's job. Yeah.

Yeah. Someone's working and making tips. Give them the freaking light bag and give them a tip. You have to pay attention to what's going on. Yeah. So for me, that's big. And one thing I teach my daughters is like, hey, service industry, you're dealing with people.

I always say, listen, you can do a job that you love and maybe don't get paid a lot. You can do a job maybe you don't like, but you get paid a lot. I go, these people are doing jobs that they probably don't love and they're probably not getting paid a lot. So it is your job that if you have 30 seconds to be like, hey, how are you today?

Do that because these people are working hard and it's no joke. And I don't know. I just think it's an interesting challenge for a parent. This happens to me all the time. I like carrying my own bags. I like it because it makes me feel self-sufficient. Right.

And it appeals to, whatever my own sense of masculinity and reliability is. Like chop your own wood. It'll warm you twice. Yeah. No, it's true. I like that. But then I live in hotels by and large. And so I see the doorman and I see the people standing by. Can I help you with that? And so all of a sudden, I have to choose between letting them do the thing they're there to do and paying them for, which I don't mind. But what I do mind is having to give up doing the thing that I actually like to do. Yeah. And so that is sort of an empathetic kind of rumination.

Robert Frost wrote a poem called Two Tramps in Mud Time. Oh, right. You guys would love this. Robert Frost is splitting wood. The hobos come out of the woods. And they've been in the lumber camps and they're hungry, you know, and then they cut wood for a living. Frost, our narrator, he cuts wood because he just,

loves to cut wood. It fills him with joy. It's his hobby. So the whole poem is a rumination on, you know, these guys want a couple of shekels to do what he's enjoying doing. And so he has to say, whose need is greater. That's right. And that's at every moment, every day. I think we have to pay attention to that because those are opportunities for you, right, and for me in that moment. And what a luxury. You can choose to give up your bag or not, where this person is there. Or Couldn't it just be that Robert Frost was a cheap bastard? It could be. As long as you answer to yourself or you chop the wood and give him the shackles.

I mean, you can solve it pretty quickly. Yeah, you carry your bag, but still give the guy a couple of bucks. And that's okay too. Yeah. But the whole point is just being a part in that moment of the cycle and system that we've set up to help people pull it. Yeah. Yeah.

So as a mom, you're trying to instill all of this in your kids all the time. You're trying to balance whatever. I can't even imagine two people kind of at the top of their games. You were kind of more famous, very, very talented and skilled. He's better at his sport, but I was more well-known. Yeah, just get to it, Mike. Come on, let's go. I live in reality, my friends.

I knew this when I met Laird. I'm like he is so supremely, I was a 1% the fact that I could play in college in the pros. Yes. And Laird is the 1% of the 1%. Yeah. For sure. I knew that. And yet, you got the fame. You got the notoriety. Out of the gate. You were the... Yeah. And then I tried to support him. Because then I was... I knew it would be a win all the way around.

I just think as a couple... It's so interesting. I remember an ad. It was probably for a polo, I guess, maybe. You guys were standing by a Jeep. Okay. And one of your kids was in his hands. standing. Oh, right. I remember that. I remember just looking at the whole tableau going, screw these people. Look how perfect they are with their Jeep in the ocean and they're, she's tall and he's gorgeous.

My little kid's standing up on. When I was at kids age, I couldn't sit up in a crib. And this little girl's like doing a torturette in her daddy's outstretched hand. What in the world are you guys eating? I know. It is interesting. I think it's, listen, there's some forces at play. Like, I never thought about being married or having kids. And when I met Laird, I was like, oh, yeah, that's my guy. And then you're just, I think from the external people like, you're fit, he's fit, you like sports, he likes

sports. And then you go, yeah, okay, I get that part. And you say thanks, because it does. It makes certain things easier. But if you want to love each other and respect each other and respect yourself, you have to show up every day. And also, you're not going to fake out your children because you're on the fitter side, especially daughters. And so for me, you know, I could see from the outside, it is pretty funny when you think of it that way. But I always think if my kids, which by the way, I can't really instill anything. I can only model because they won't listen, especially if Laird and I are not the most obedient people in the world.

And my kids definitely have inherited that trait of noncompliance, which I'm glad. I want to send out daughters into the world. I always say like, follow the big rules and break all the little ones. I went to college night with one of my girls the other night. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so much bullshit. Like, you have to do this and then have a bad. balance on your list and then apply like this and apply this. And I go, this is so much baloney.

And they're just hurting all of these kids to go through the same system. And it makes me, I feel rebellious against that. Yeah. And I, but tell the truth. Try to be a good citizen. Those are the big rules. The little rules, I actually want you to break all of them. And so I think within that Laird and I know, yes, it's pretty fortunate and it's really fortunate that we found each other. But when you want to get down into it, like the stuff that could excite you, It's so many other things. And Laird is hugely rebellious. Rebellious is too easy.

There are too many movies made about it. Well, he's a contrarian. He's actually not rebellious. He's a contrarian. Well, I like the other C word you used. I'm a big fan of contrarian. Don't go there. Oh, I was like, what C word?

Are we there already? Have I been bad? Geez, wow. Are we British? I didn't know. Like, what is happening? No, we're terribly bridging. Okay.

No, the C word to which I refer was compliance. Yeah. Compliance. man. And that, I think sometimes without it at all, we'd be in the grips of the other C word, of course, which is chaos, right? But too much of it. And my God, when was the last time being noncompliant had a material impact in a positive way on you? Well, that's my whole professional life. When I was in college playing ball, I went into college at 17. I started modeling at 18. I had an accountant. I can't make this up, and I apologize to his family, named Abe Shriverman.

And Abe Shriverman was a lot older. He must have been in his 60s. And then I would go back to school, and then I gave up my scholarship. I paid the play because you didn't have NIL name and likeness back then. You couldn't be a professional. If it was fuzzy, you were going to get in trouble with the NCAAs. Okay, cool. So I worked this deal out with my coach to do both.

And he used to say to me, kid, so for six months of the year, I wasn't working. Because I had a deal with my coach. I'm there to play ball. I'm at school. I'm competing. I'm not taking any jobs. And then she's like, you don't have to go to spring training. You can live in New York.

You do your thing. Come back for summer school. Jam up on credits. So you're eligible to play. Here we go. Okay. Abe Shriverman's like, kid, make the money when you can. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was like, I don't know, Abe. I just really love this volleyball thing. And it feels like me and all this stuff. So right from there. Plus, I knew. I was like, you're 6-3. I worked a lot, but the girls really killing it modeling.

They're 5-9. They're diverse. They're versatile. They can do a lot of different things. I was only going to do certain things. That was the first thing. Then what happens? I get to turn pro and then use kind of that experience to help with the next section of my career. Not taking jobs of products that I would never use. I've always done that. Not taking jobs sponsored by products you would ever use? I never have. Even when I was young. I just felt like I was lying. And the big rule, don't lie, right? Well, that's what you call integrity, I believe. Yeah, but at 18, 19, and it's not like you're not thinking like, oh, that'd be nice, you know. Yeah, yeah. But I just knew inside myself, hey, you wouldn't drink that, not really. You can't share that with other people.

And so, and Laird separately has always been like that as well. So I think that noncompliance, and then what happens is, and you know this from your own experience, you do that enough times, you honor yourself, that voice. that voice inside, that thing in your stomach, it shows up in so many good ways that then it just gets easier. When you're older, you're like, it's not even a question. And if you go, if I pass up this opportunity,

and I always say I'm playing the long game, period, end of story, I play the long game. And those small decisions all play into the long game, which usually takes you to a much better place that you'd arrive than if you were compliant. What's been more important in your career and in your many businesses, which I want to talk about too, but just in all of it, like in a general way,

is it the business of saying yes or no? More often than not. Oh, I say no way more, but I will say this. And actually, Mary doesn't know this, but I'm going to share it with you because I was in a relationship with somebody that I worked with for a really long time. And it was great, fine.

But there was a lot of no and trying to do a perfect deal. And I was quite young. So I didn't really know better. So after I was not in that relationship any longer, I said to Laird, I'm going to say yes to everything, meaning you can always say no. But you have to say yes to even learn why you would say no instead of just no right from the onset. So there's a nuance in there, which is like, hey, can you get on a call? Can you take a meeting? Can you explore this?

Yes, I can. Can a college kid interview you? Let me see what else they've done. Oh, they're smart. They have four followers. Yes, I will. So yes to everything. And then the more I know, does it suit my long game or not, then you can make the decision

for your no. Because then you have flow. You don't stop flow because when we just go, no, no, no, no. Can you meet this person? Can you take this call? No. I think within that is a nuance of go into life with yes. Just so you guys know, the Mary, to whom Gabby refers as Mary Sullivan, she's been my business partner for 18 years.

So it was really fortunate that the person you mentioned in your life, well, had she not been there when you and I met for those four seconds 18 years ago, Mary might very well be running your world, which might have been good. Which been a lot, Mike. You're welcome, but you know what? Thanks. I'd still be sitting there listening to weirdos pleasure themselves while I try. Ryan Selt Tupperware. Yes. And I think the other thing that's important, I think it's important for all people.

When you are going on an endeavor, it is so valuable to have other people that are good at something else because you can be the most talented. And the thing that separates you from another person is a Mary. Somebody who can put it all together. I always call it like building the skeleton and they go, cool, now you can put the meat on the bones because you have that talent. But it's like I structured it for you. And I think.

Who's going to set the ball for you to smash it over the net? Correct. And it's, well, all of life, community and cooperation is how we really make it. Competition. Sea word. Again? I thought it was being cool. Competition.

Chaos. Compliance. Right. It's just competition, I think, is something we've put together. I mean, listen, we want to know who we can trust when we squeeze the neck and war is one way to do it. So you go, how's my brother when we're in a heavy situation? But also in competition, you see. a lot about people. Okay, fair enough. And it's entertainment. But it's actually not about progress.

You realize that cooperation. See word. You're going to throw me off. Something's going to happen. Something's going to happen. I know it. I'm going to slip. Something's happening. There are only 26 letters that a word can begin with. So you know, you're going to get a few Cs in there. When you have that teammate, man, it's magic. Yeah. You got to have trusted people around you. But I swear, at this point, I think I'm less articulate. and really less understanding of how to think about a team than I've ever been, because I just don't really know that I understand what the rules are. Well, think about jobs.

I mean, you know this. You've seen some of the hardest, most difficult, unique, specific jobs, and they were not getting paid big dough. It's funny, I have this conversation with my daughter. I go, listen, if you do a job that a lot of people can do, you're not going to get paid. if you have a unique something a little more unique that's kind of how it is i go it's not fair but it is the way that it is and so i think that in a way with certain sports quarterback i think less people can be quarterbacks all the variables that have to come together it's not fair it's not about

fair but i do think to deal with that pressure to touch the ball every time to make those decisions to take those hits to be that size to be able to throw the ball all of it So I think I understand what you're saying, but when you look at it through the lens of it doesn't make sense why that person gets that job. But if I really step back and look at less people could probably do it, then it starts to at least make a little bit of sense. Well, look, scarcity is always a thing. Yeah.

But how much should we pay a fireman? How much should we pay somebody who's willing to run into a burning building to save one of your girls? Or a real teacher. A real teacher. Yes. You know what? I'm starting to see your slip a little bit here. What are you talking about?

I'm talking about, am I right? So you're questioning the notion of fairness, which I'm in violent agreement with. There's no such thing as fairness. No. But you're not supposed to say that today. Oh, you're not supposed to be doing that? That flies in the face of both equity and equality. I'm trying to be a good adult and show up in the world as an adult and be willing to at least offer the perspective.

that I've seen that shows up in nature and that shows up in reality. At least the reality, even if this itself is a simulation, the reality that we're all choosing to live in. And life is not fair. Is this why you're doing a podcast of your own? I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a...

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Free meat for life, 40 bucks off your first order. Good ranchers.com. American meat delivered. If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a good. a chance on a foreign ranch get good ranchers now i think it's something i think we all have to participate and i always say if i was a baker i could make cookies i'm not and i think taking really difficult information like sciencey kind of movement exercise ways to help people support their make their lives a little more buoyancy to their health or other interests me and if i could be

a person that participates in doing that and also being a female because the space is dominant is dominated by males. And I'm like, that's cool for you, but you probably have somebody at home pulling it for you. I am that person. So let's get into also that perspective. And performance really interests me, but it's also shifted.

So when I say that, you know, jump, move heavyweight performance, those metrics, that is interesting. But what really interests me, because I've done it so long and I live with somebody who does it, what if you could really perform? And that means show up in your life every day as a citizen, as a parent, as a partner, as a friend, as a business owner, and like get a little more experience or a little smarter and make better choices. Okay, now you're really talking about performance. You want me to talk about heart rate variability?

Cool. cholesterol. I can do it. Your microbiome all day long. But if we can add that, use those tools to do the other better. Now I think we're really talking about performance because that's a life of that. Are you reading or listening to Hewerman much? Yeah, I know, Andrew.

Oh, do you? Yeah. I'd love to get him on this podcast. I'll connect you with Rob Moore, Rob Moore, Rob Moore. He's the brains behind it. Obviously, one set of brains. Obviously, Huberman's the other set of brains. They've really put together an extraordinary situation.

But even Huberman's a great example. Science all day long. Talk to me about real life. Stories, personal. Well, no, and real life, like, get your ass a little bit in some personal relationships and things like that. And I think Huberman is providing a huge service to people because he's making learning and science interesting. And I think it's fantastic. You have to live every day.

And so however we need to get inspired, I think is great. And Huberman is doing a beautiful job. Because he's not in compliance, is he? he's not compliant. He moved out of compliance. He was in compliance for a long time. He probably wasn't in compliance, skateboarding and doing all the stuff when he was younger. Then he moved into compliance. And now he's moving out of compliance. But actually what he's doing is he's honoring his profession in a different way by sharing it with more people, not just in a lab, mobilizing more people and getting people interested in like, oh, I never thought of it that way. I have a friend actually. And this is important.

She said to me, I stopped drinking alcohol because of of Andrew Huberman because of the way he told me that alcohol impacted my health. And I thought, you know what? If you do one thing, pretty badass. So that is one thing. But now what I'm saying is how do we bring all that knowledge, all that data, and pull it into real life?

Because that's where I'm at. I'm past all that other stuff. I know that stuff. And I don't mean I know it. I'm perfect, I understand, you know, but I'm saying, I get it. I've been around that for 25 years. I'm saying, how do I show up as a better human, human being. How does all of that make me kinder, less reactive? Now you're talking about performance.

It's like, oh, I want to flip out. I'm not going to. My ego really wants to be in charge here. I'm going to put it in the back seat. Now we're game on. And yeah, I can eat clean and I move every day. Fine. I got that. I sort of have a different realm. And I've also got my ass kicked by my children. as far as learning about changing as a person. So there's a lot of different variables for me that I'm interested in that I love these boys, I love them all, but there's a lot of stuff. They're not there yet.

What worries you? I mean, in the context of, like for me, I'm a curious person, and I feel like I'm living in this extraordinary time where I've got such unlimited access to so much stuff. And so the business of synthesizing it falls to guys like Andrew and people like you. And maybe to some small degree, somebody like me who can bring people in, right? But now suddenly I look around Gabby and I'm like, like let's make a deal with simple.

Door number one, door number two, number three. You want the box of the curtain. Yeah. Now it's like everything is a life hack. Everything is a new book. Everything is a very special documentary. People are throwing themselves in ice baths and their... Which is good for you, by the way.

And I'm doing it. I'm doing it too. You know what I did last week? What? I held my breath for four and a half minutes. Yep, I believe it. And I did it over the course of three days, just doing those, like that Wim Hof crap. Yeah.

So are we living in this new age of like we're all lab rats and we're all in some petri dish and we're all just biohacking, freaking everything? Or to your point is the goal to bring all of that back, absorb it, forget about it, and then be kind. Yeah, it is because I use exercise and nutrition. Yes, of course, I'm not going to bullshit you. Would I like to stay attractive to my husband so that we can figure out how to navigate this relationship while we're here? Yes, that is definitely an inspiration. But what I will say is I've seen a lot of people, the more you know, it doesn't make you

more successful at being healthier. And I put that in air quotes. What I have learned is it's actually taking away. the things that are keeping you from being healthy. It's not about adding more things, more to-dos. They have it wrong. And when you start to really talk to enough people in the space, it's about taking away the things that are preventing you from being successful.

Addition by subtraction. Correct. And so I'm at the place where I'm like, how do we simplify this and also encourage people to take the wheel? If you want to be a vegan, knock yourself out, but do it right. So it's not about me telling you, how to live or them telling you how to live, figure it out for yourself, take what's good, leave what's bad. The other side of this is too, if you think you're going to hack your way

through anything, that's nonsense. If you do the work, the real work, then the hacks give you little bumps and percentages. If you don't do the real foundational work, like get to bed, manage your stress, eat real food, move some heavy stuff occasionally, get your heart rate up. No hack in the world is going to get you there. It doesn't matter. I think of it like, like if you think of all the technique that Laird needed to master in order to ride that freaking millennium wave or whatever that thing was, and where I think about all of the things that have to go right in your body to do what you did on the volleyball court, right? And if you break all that stuff down into its component parts, and then if you master all those things individually,

it doesn't mean anything because there's still that weird other indefinable and articulable thing that has to be in you that allows all of that stuff to come together and move in a sensible way, which is why not everybody has to stop drinking alcohol. And not everybody needs to do any of these things. So I don't know. I'm just constantly stuck in this feedback loop of, God, if only there was a playbook that we could all follow. and my absolute certain belief that doing so would put us all in compliance and right back to the jacked-up place where we started. Yeah.

Well, also, we have too much distraction. And whether we like it or not, we try to ignore that there's something called biology, you know. Biology. Biology. And what do I mean by that? In some ways, we haven't merged with technology yet. I mean, a little bit with our phone. We have merged with it.

Let's be clear. But not fully yet. is there's just certain things that make us feel good, like a hug, you know, a friend. So I think in a way when we can reconnect, it's cool that we have all this hacking stuff, but if we could also just view ourselves in the framework as sort of an animal, it'd be better. And keep it simple. Like everyone is complicated. It's so much.

And one person's smarter than the next. And did you hear that? And did you read that? And I'm like, you all have not even blayed down two weeks of work. You know? it's also about the work and we know it when we're honest with ourselves it's like cool you want to eat that or do that cool but just know what's happening that's all so at least you're you are in charge of when it's happening not it's happening blindly like i'm stressed out i shove this in my mouth

it's like i'm stressed out that would feel really good to me right now can i tell everybody what we talked about right before we started rolling yeah i don't remember but sure I don't think I was there. I'm excited. Is it have to do with a C? I don't know. No, no. Okay. Okay. I think the only C word left we can use is character. Oh, fantastic. Sooner or later we get to that. Okay. But or courage. Also a big one. Oh, yeah. So remind me, we got to ruminate on character and courage, work ethic, personal responsibility, a decent attitude, and delayed gratification. All this stuff matters. But I was so tickled when I saw you again 18 years later after that unforgettable. second handshake we had back in the day, back in the day when I stole a woman who could have managed your career from you. I know, it's amazing. Look at you and now look at me. You know what I'm saying? What's something happened here? You know what else? Look at you. Look at you. We were sitting in Mary's office and you said out of the blue, did you see that Judy Dench business. Did you see this on Graham Norton? Chuck? No, I don't think I did. All right. So Judy Dench is on Graham Norton.

He's not in the no. You know what I'm saying? Look, he's busy producing a fake podcast. Yeah, yeah. He's also being auditions. One that you're deciding if you want to do. Okay, good job. We're probably going to fire him this week. It's teetering. Sitting right here. So Judy Dench is on Graham Norton, and they start talking about Shakespeare, right?

And one thing leads to the next. And she's invited to recite a few bars, and she does. It's a beautiful sonnet, about 22 lines. It's worth listening to. It's a rumination on her country and the state and this idea that we're just all living. in a weird place where everything is falling down around us, and it's hopeful. But this is Judy Dench, okay? As old as Judy Dench is today, you can see her in your mind's eye.

Sure. But when she pauses and a hush falls over the audience, she owns that room, and she's hot. She's hot. And there's nothing about... They don't call her Dame for nothing. Man, I'm telling it. And it's so... Beautiful.

It's so much beauty. It's straight up unadulterated. beauty. It's not, oh, look, I memorized this thing and aren't I clever. But nor was it a performance. It was simply a woman who could access the files and bring out a piece of art and share it with a crowd. Now, that shit's for sale more than ever. And that's why I ask about your podcast, because I think if there's any real utility in this whole myasma of podcasting. It's to get to moments like that where people can connect over something useful and share it and laugh about it and not make a meal of it. That's what was so great about it. It's a two and a half minute clip. And it will haunt your dreams, man, in a good way.

Yeah. It really will. That is my hope, right? It's to, it's not, I think life is messy. And I always say perfection for me is not the goal. It never has been. To be perfect is not the goal. And I feel like a lot of people have this pressure thinking they're supposed to know everything and women are supposed to feel like they're supposed to look a perfect way. And if I could just participate in the conversation with other people around, hey, just do the best you can for real. I've said this a lot. It's dual gloves. It's 100% accountability and grace and serve both to yourself at every moment. Because don't bullshit and don't try to make excuses. Don't be a victim of your own story, but also cut yourself some slack because people are dealing with a lot of

things. So for me, I'm very interested in that space because that's where being like a human being is. I do think when you said, what scares me is that we're living in a time where there's a lot of hysteria, there's not a ton of civil discord, it's not a lot of discussion. There's definitely not nuance, which it's fine. But that at least within your own life, you had that to support you, because it's kind of crazy. And you're supposed to look this way, whatever this way is. I mean, I used to be on magazines. And that was bad.

I was like, I don't look like that. And I was 19 or 20 years old. I looked pretty, I didn't have that many wrinkles. You know what I mean? And so I see it now with young people. And again, I have three daughters. It's like the filters. Oh, get this filler.

Do that. Wear that. It's an impossibility. And people are going to miss their whole lives trying to chase that thing. And so when you say, what worries you. And it's not for me. It's for the group coming up.

My hope for them is that they find their purpose, what they want to contribute. They find a couple people they love that love them. And like work it out. Because the rest is, it's kind of silly. I don't know. I don't do a ton of prep for this, as you might have noticed. But I did, as I was walking over here from my hotel,

I saw you were interviewed by a guy who interviewed me years ago. He was over it like, entrepreneur magazine at the time. I think it was called Beyond the Brand or behind a brand or something like that. Yeah. Right? So the gotcha guy. Well, he's a gotcha guy. Really? Kind of. Well, you know, a little bit. It's okay. It's for clips. I get it. Yeah. I got nothing bad to say about the guy at all. But you made me snort in the first 30 seconds. Oh, really? Good. With the gotcha guy? Well, he asked you introduce yourself and you're like, hi, I'm Gabby Reese, a wife, mother, volleyball player. your next guest. He was like, okay, that's great. Let's do it again. This time, like,

really get into your, like, tell me something about your story. And your exact words were, ah, barf. Did I say that? You said, ugh, barf. Now, to his credit, it's a very funny edit. And then you tell a story. And I could tell, though, as you were telling it, you're sick of it. You're sick of being asked the same questions, but you were graceful enough to tell it. And it's a good tale and it's about your dad and it's about your mom and it's about growing up. And, you know, I think I talk a lot about my granddad. His picture's right over your shoulder there and his names on a bottle of whiskey and dirty jobs was dedicated to him. And so was the foundation that I run.

So on the one hand, you know, I'm with Santa Ana. You know, we don't remember our past. We're doomed to repeat it. On the other hand, who gives a crap? Who gives a crap about all this stuff all these years ago? And why do we so often, I just thought of it when you just said something about, don't be a victim of your story. Yeah. What exactly do you mean?

Well, because life isn't fair. And I worked a lot. One of my daughters went through some challenging times and I learned a lot from a woman named Byron Katie. And she shares a lot about like how it can be, it can always be worse, right? Much worse. Yes. And so I'm so grateful. like so many people, I didn't have the easiest childhood.

You know, I didn't always live with my parents. My father died when I was five. I wasn't living with either one of my parents when it happens. I lived with a different family from two to seven. There was a bunch of stuff that happened. But anyway, and I've said this so many times. And in my case, it's really externally, it'd be like if I had a super high IQ, which obviously I don't.

Not obvious. I had, I mean, I suspected. I mean, we're thinking it's coming up. I mean, yeah. I'm trying to sit here and think of words with C. I can only come up with one. Casualty. Is that I was going through my life and we have these ideas about the way it's supposed to be.

And when I was younger, I was like, if I could just have somebody who would be at home or leave it to beaver kind of, like, can't we just be normal? All these things, which I get. And then as I got a little older, I started to realize, well, wait a second. Maybe you didn't have this traditional situation, but you had these other adults, adjunct adults that stepped in and provided something for me and coaches that stepped in that provided something for me. The fact that I was 6-3, what did that do? That enabled me to play volleyball. So I was like, okay, and I've always likened it to low cards and high cards. So in some ways, I was dealt some pretty low cards. But if I just was smart enough to flick through

my hand and say, oh, but I got the high cards. Play the high cards. We all have low and high. And so I think it's taken me a long time and I'm not always perfect at it, especially with my mom. Sometimes I have to, I'm, it's hard when you become an adult and you're not able to give somebody the type of relationship they would like. It's so interesting. How do I honor her and myself at the same time. And it's not really probably possible. I can be respectful of her, but in the end as an adult, and I have an obligation to my children and to my husband, I still do what is comfortable for me. I'm never mean, I stay kind, but I only do it in the way that works for me. And I know that's harsh, but that is also what that works for me. I encourage people, actually,

I do feel that men do this a little easier. It's like, that's the way it is. And with women, we're conditioned so, it's beat into us to be nice. And I put that in air quotes. Because sometimes it's like, well, what does that really mean? Yeah. Nice is a dumb word. I tell my kids, especially my youngest daughter, who's kind of a savage and is not

interested in protecting people's feelings, I go, I don't care about nice. Just a baseline of manners and kindness. And so, you know, with working that out as an adult, because I don't want to, not only do I not want to keep repeating those things? But also I give myself permission to go, well, how in this dynamic with this person, how am I comfortable? And it's ruthless in a way, but I do it. The federal government is not going to close America's skills gap. They have an important role to play for sure.

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I'm talking skills, U.S. skills, U.S. skills. USA. So, wow, you don't necessarily have to be kind to have good manners. No. Nor do you have to be nice. That's just a straight up decision. Man, they're all in flux, it feels like, all of the time. People don't know how to behave, Gabby.

You know, you hold the door for the woman, and suddenly the woman is like, I'm perfectly capable of opening the door. And you're like, oh, God, how did I screw that up? So no one knows where the manners are. No one knows where the line is. No one, it's like we do need some sort of survival guide. Yeah. I say we.

Honestly, we don't. But your kids do. Yeah. Because how are they to make sense of a world that's like eating its own tail? Well, everyone's scared. Yeah. Like if you open the door for me, I'm very clear that I can open my own door. I'm not threatened about my power or independence.

So you know what? Open the door. I like it. Go for it. But you'll give your bags up. because the guy's got a job to carry them. That's the only time I will for sure. There's the difference.

Yeah. So this is why I want people to feel good because it's just an easier place to start making these choices. And when we figure out it's even like having a skill, it's like Judy Dench. Yeah. When we have developed something in our lives that is ours, it's like you, guess what? You have a business now. So you don't have to always be a gun for hire. You can create stuff.

You can make it. You go, I want to do this. That is freaking cool. And so it's the same with, who am I? What do I like? What problems do I want to solve every day? What thing do I believe in working hard at? And keep doing that because that makes us feel good.

So when then someone comes on our path and does something, we're usually not offended. Permission to inject two more C words just to get your tag on. Oh, geez, here we go. Competence. and capability. I think what you just said was when you know you're competent, when you feel capable, and it doesn't really matter at what. It could be baseball, volleyball, surfing, it could be talking, it could be juggling, it could be listening, it could be mothering. When you feel like you've mastered one thing, plumbing, steam fitting, pipe fitting, welding, one thing, then you have

something that build on and maybe permission to try other things that you're not yet competent at, but maybe you don't care so much if you fall on your face, even from a height of 6-3. I don't like to fall. It's a long way down. It's far. Yeah, it's not good. It's really not good. Have you ever gone into, of course you have. You've gone into an elevator in New York and they still have.

Never been in one house. Tell us about it. Some buildings in New York have elevator operators still. Absolutely. There's some elevator operator guys that are like, they're geez. They're in there. They say, good morning. They interact with you.

They know the people in the building. They're rolling. And let me tell you, when they go home, they got some people that love them that they admire. And so people have to be clear what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you do your thing. You do it with pride. And also, you create the environment. When you walk into an elevator with somebody who's like, hey, how's it going today?

You're in their world. and they've just set the tone. And it's beautiful. I have a guy that I've known for 25 years at a restaurant near my home, and I go to the restaurant to see him. Not very often, but I do. His name is Luis.

And he says, you know, one of his missions is he'll have really snotty clients for a long time. And slowly, but surely, he turns them. And they stop being assholes. Right. Right. And he's like, also I would like to make, see if I can make their day better.

I'm not talking about something grand. Yeah, I have some, you know, things in the world that I was good at, capable at that were, you know, they're obvious. It's like, okay, hit a volleyball. Like you said, it doesn't have to be that. And by the way, I know a lot of people that are good at some stuff, really good, they could be the best. But because they've ignored all the other things, in a way, it's going to be the thing

that bites them in the ass. Yeah. Because they would have this greatness, celebration, attention, even money, you know, all the stuff and they will become a time that that light dims or changes. And if they haven't developed the whole thing, it's actually the thing that tortures you then for like the next 40 years. Like even, you know this. Okay, if Dirty Jobs is not rolling the way it was, when you walk around, it might be a little more quiet for a time. It just depends. You have to deal with all that, you know. And so I think people don't realize, oh, if I just had that, if I was just that, it's like, no, it's still really about your life.

but having one thing that you're good at that's just yours, right? You don't need to tell people like, oh, I'm good at this. You carry that with you and I really think it shows up. And like for me, it's very hard to offend me at this point. Stick around. No, because I've been in a long relationship. Like I love like people go, don't take this personal. I go, what are you crazy?

How should I take it? Not only that, I've had teenage daughters that say stuff like, I mean, you're older. Or like the way, you know, you know, you have a partner that they have bad days. It's like you don't have to take anything personal. I don't think. I mean, very few things. So I just think it makes dancing in the days way easier. That's another term you've used now like four times.

Like as a metaphor, I listen for metaphors. Language is fun. I love it. But I think metaphors are super powerful. And you use the dance metaphor a lot, right? That's what we're all trying to do here. Let's make this as easy as possible because life's going to throw zingers. So let's stop zinging ourselves.

And when the big ones come, we roll through those, you know. So disappointments. Like all of this as we start to land the plane is a survival guide for the disappointments that we know with certainty, my favorite C-word of all, are coming. Let me tell you something Mary told me shortly after that unforgettable meeting 18 years ago where you and I shook hands for nearly four seconds that you don't recall. Your husband had filmed a commercial for American Express, and he was in the middle of an impossible wave, right?

Until I saw Free Solo. Yeah. So I saw Alex Honnold do what he did. Beautiful, yeah. What your husband did on that wave was the most shocking thing I'd seen that juxtaposed man and dad. nature. And then the tsunami came and destroyed that chunk of the world. And American Express said, well, we can't put that on the air right now. Right. And I just thought, I mean,

this is how small and petty I can be. I just thought, God, that is so disappointing. You know, I mean, there, I'm like, if I were to there, I am in the middle of this wave, like doing something and no one's ever done. And American Express is going to put $100 million behind that. Yeah. And no, we're not going to do that now. Was he disappointed when that ad didn't air? No, Laird would be more disappointed if there was a really meaningful swell. There's different types of swells. There's swells of a lifetime.

There's just a regular swell. If something like that happened and he wasn't able to be there. Doesn't he have, what do you call it, like a wave clause or something? Yeah, it's a big wave. Oh, poor Mary, she knows about this. So kind of through late October through March, we generally put it out there to all companies that want to work with Laird. If this date comes and thank God for technology, because I can give you at least a week's notice, Laird has a 20 foot clause that it's like, hey, if it's going to be big on that specific day, he will not be able to shoot or show up. And he's dead serious.

He did a movie called Riding Giants and it opens Sundance. And Robert Redford was introducing the film. And I was there with my three-month-old. And Laird was in Utah. Laird was on Maui because of Big Swall came. He was late for the premiere of his own movie. That was about him riding waves. And when people go, well, he did come the next day.

But people ask me and I go, well, this is what the movie's about. So what's the big deal? Sorry, I hate to interrupt, but you need to unpack this for me just to say. Okay, so think of it like force majeure? Yeah. So if the wave is big enough, Laird says, I can't do your project right now. I've got to go ride this wave. Correct.

But he knows a week ahead because the weather maps will, the low pressure show up. And so if he's booked for a commercial shoot or public speaking or something. And we always are very straight-hand. I'm like, it's on you if you want to try to do this. It has happened a few times. But we're in wave season. And there is a wave clause. Yes.

And you know Laird. I love being the bearer of that news. You're always like, it's only happened a few times, but I have had to make the call. So what we do is you sort of have this kind of backup plan B usually with most. Sometimes you can't, but a lot of things you can. I'm just thinking, like, I do, I don't do a ton, but I probably do 15, maybe 20, like big events a year. Yeah. I mean, 5,000 people will show.

That's a lot, yeah. That's big, right? They spend 18 months. There's catering. Yeah. They brought in, what is Cisco brought in, Aerosmith. Arrowsmith, right? It's me and Arrowsmith.

Right? Rock on. Is it 6,000 people in the stadium? I mean, it's a thing, and it's in the works for 18 months. And five days ahead, I tell Mary Sullivan, Hey, I need you to make a quick call for me. Yeah. Okay?

Why? What's up? There's some really big waves back over on the big island. I got to go. So I say do the event in May. It's a good chance. Because the southern hemisphere isn't fully going off yet and the northern hemisphere has winded down.

Oh, wow. You know the whole... Oh, that's so hysterical. That's amazing. Oh, I've been in this a long time. Well, look, if you want Mary to run your world, that's all I need to do is just put a wave clause on my contract and exercise. She would...

That would not... You have a land job. Like, Laird talks about sports all the time. He goes, they can show up. It's Sunday. They know the game starts at 12 o'clock. He's like, he's pissed all the time because he's now, you have to be ready, but you don't know for when. But be ready, but you don't know when. Like a doctor. You're on call. He's on call. He's on call and he is frustrated. Surfers are very patient, angry people. What's the microe equivalent of the wave clause? The wave clause? Yeah. There is none. But I mean, what could it be, if it were? I mean, look, I've booked private travel last minute. Yeah. I've never not made it. Yeah. But I suppose true force major, it would have to be an earthquake or a volcano. Yeah. Because I don't have a surfboard. I don't do that. My whole world, Gabby, is showing up. Well, you're a storyteller, and you humanize things and also make them just more entertaining and more

interesting if they were just on their own. So that is a skill and also introducing people to things, making something like, check out how this cup is made. It's like, who cares? But all of a sudden, you're like, whoa, a lot goes into that. And by the way, check out that cup. Look what you've been drinking. I know. I saw it. I saw it. I mean, we only just met 18 years ago and here you are. Drinking right out of my face. Is that the time which you didn't remember you? Shut up. That's about the right time. That's about the right time. Don't wreck it. So I think that's what I mean. I think it's if people tap into, when you were 15 and you said, hey, listen, the guidance counselor sat you down and said, here's some job options.

And that's why it's so important for people to go back to themselves to figure it out. Because if you were 10th, 11th grade or graduating and we go, you know, this could be an option for a career, you could have never put it together. But because you trust yourself, you say yes to things, you follow it along. Are you messing with me right now? No. I just want to remind people. I'm asking you straight up. Are you, I mean, that poster behind you, in the bottom left-hand corner, that poster was hanging

in my guidance counselor's office. It's the worst advice I've ever seen in my life. It says, work smart, not hard. Yeah. And it's a picture of a kid holding a college diploma next to a skilled worker holding a wrench. It looks like you won the vocational consolation prize. I started this whole foundation and did. Which I love, by the way.

You're welcome. And dirty jobs because of my pop. That's my story, right? Yeah. when you say like guidance counselors are the docents of our vocational futures and for them to have their thumb on the scale as they so often do and tell kids don't waste your time this is the way you want to go but it's so expensive don't worry sign here you'll be fine no and that is for some people but it's actually not for most i don't think well it's 100% bad advice for the most people but the

only way to be, I think, strong enough to ignore it is to take the first C word you shared with. You must be contrary. You must be willing to say to your guidance counselor, look, thank you, but no. Yeah, be willing to question. Listen, as a parent, I can tell you I've raised children that do that. It is very difficult to parent, but it will serve them better because they also do that to everything in the world. As a parent, it's a pain in the ass because they, You know, they're always bucking us. But I want them to question the systems in place and the people who have the important jobs. I do want them to question them.

Folks, if you're trying to raise kids, do yourself a favor. Tap into the wisdom of Gabrielle Reese on her amazing podcast, which is creatively called. Hit me with that, Gabby, if you would. Oh, it's the Gabby Reese show. Unbelievable. Wherever did you come up with that name. Yeah, look what you guys are talking about. And you know what I didn't ask you about, doggone it?

What? We got to wrap this up. But back to integrity and your stubborn refusal to whore yourself out to the sponsors, which is precisely, of course, what I did at the beginning of my career and continue to do to this day. Yes. Speaking of which, big thanks to ZipRecruiter for making this whole thing happen. That's good. I like it. No, actually, I really use ZipRecruiter.

And you know what? I'm in that place now where I don't, I'm trying to do precisely what you've done, right? But we learn. We do learn. And nothing, rarely or everything, is. Is everything perfect because there's this other C word. I don't know if I bounce this off. Which is it? It's compromise.

Yes. We have to to a certain degree if we want to keep the lights on. Yes. But without ruminating too much on that, rather than speak on behalf of a food or a food supplement, you guys like did your thing. Yeah. And I just read, this is not a hobby anymore. You have a public company. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. By accident, we created a food company, Laird Superfood. it's really many great products. Try and contain your enthusiasm. No, I love this company. Careful, someone might buy some of it. I love this company and people have to realize like we are so deeply involved.

Like if you want me to talk to you about, like there's like an ingredient that I always joke. Like it's called a tachoferal. I mean, I know so much about food because this goes back to if you are drinking coffee every day, we have something. We're not asking you to add.

We're saying, hey, listen, a lot of creamers and things have weird stuff in it. So if you're doing a little every day, could we do a little of some good stuff every day? And so Laird Superfood started by accident, and we ended up taking it in public in 20. So I love this part of business, because to create something and to be able to share it with people is difficult, but it's so fun and rewarding. And we use it every, that's the thing. It's in our house. We use it every day. What's it called? Laird Superfood. I really like you. Because we spent more than four seconds together.

Yeah, it was so much more, I mean, it's going to be tough to top that first meeting, but this is a good one. I'm better in small doses. Let's keep it at that. You know what you are? I'm going to leave you with the last C word. You ready? You're congruent.

Wow. That's a good one. You are congruent, Gabby Reese. You have actually, you've shown up over and over. You've parlayed some really interesting cards, maybe not the best ones that you you hoped you'd get. But man, you've played them really well. And what a fun life you're having and a great ride. Thank you. Thanks, Mike. It's really awesome to see you again. Thanks for your time. And I hope you keep up with the podcast. I want to talk more about this creamer stuff.

Because, you know, I used to drink it black because I thought it was super manly. And now I cream in it and now I don't know what I'm doing to myself. Oh, I'll send you some stuff. The other thing for people drinking caffeine, and it's very old tradition, mix it with some kind of fat because then you don't get the big spike. You don't get the caffeine up and down. It's a slower release. But it's not as manly. It's not as macho. You mean like that sour coffee-ass breath? I know. Do you ever have a teacher that leaned over you and helped you with class? And you're like, whoa, whoa. I had a dentist that smoked while he was drilling when I was a kid. Yes. I had that too, no gloves either. Yeah. Yeah. Mine was totally naked. Wrapped in bubble pack and lying in a manger.

What? Wow. You know, every now and then. He took it deep. He took it deep. He was. He It's not deep. It's just in terms of goals, I try in each podcast to say at least one sentence that I'm sure has never been uttered before in the history of time. And a naked dentist wrapped in bubble pack, smoking as he, lying in a manger. You might win. Gabby Reese, you're an original. Thank you. Thank you, sir. When you leave a review, which we hope that you'll do, tell us who you are. Tell us who you are. And before you go, whoa. Won't you leave a star?

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