The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 386: Chuck Klausmeyer & NEW STORY—Here Be Dragons

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

First, a brand-new mystery about brave men in a distant sea, then Mike and Chuck take a deeper dive.  

I got a story to tell every word of it true, except for the parts I made up for you, just some history that has been reworded into a mystery called the way I heard it. Hey guys, Mike Row here, fresh back from my week-long vacation in Hawaii, tanned, rested, eager to share with you a short story. It's episode 386 and it's called Here Be Dragons. Here be dragons. You're going to love it. And you're going to love the conversation I have with Chuck afterwards.

He's something else, that Chuck Klausmeier, and he's in rare form today. Real quick, though, before we start, I got a movie coming out, if you haven't heard, on June 27th. It's called Something to Stand for. And it's based on a few of the stories in this podcast that have been adapted for the big screen. I'm really excited about it. I just looked at the first cut. It's great. Modesty aside.

in time for Independence Day. Great for the whole family. I think you're going to love it. I'll tell you more about it toward the end of the podcast. But for now, if you want to hold a ticket, you can go to something to stand for.movie. Check out the trailer while you're there. Having said all that, this is the way I heard it. The president sat behind his desk in the Oval Office and considered the words before him. Words typed out on a single page of white paper that trembled in his hand. words written by his best speechwriter that would devastate the nation. The president cleared his throat, looked into the lens of the camera, and began to read those words with all the empathy he could muster.

My fellow Americans, fate has ordained that our countrymen sent to explore in peace will forever rest in peace. These men know that there is no hope for their recovery, but also know that there is great hope in their sacrifice. For these brave men have laid down their lives in mankind's most noble goal, the search for truth and understanding. As he read the words, the President was overwhelmed by the reality of what he was actually describing. This was no normal shipwreck.

A U.S. vessel was marooned in the basin of a distant sea. men aboard were still very much alive, but they wouldn't be for long. Like countless mariners over the centuries, these brave men had ventured into uncharted territory, a place the ancient maps might have described with the words, Hick sunt dracones. Here be dragons. Now, the president's countrymen were among the dragons beyond the reach of his navy or his coast guard, or any hope of rescue. Over the next few days, the shipwrecked men would slowly starve or run out of air, and there was not a damn thing anyone could do to help them. The president continued. In their exploration, they stirred the people of the world to feel as one. In their sacrifice, they bind more

tightly the brotherhood of man. They will be mourned by their families and friends. They will be mourned by their nation. They will be mourned by the people of the world. They will be mourned by a mother earth who dared send her sons into the unknown. The president paused as a tear rolled down his right cheek. He recalled the terror of the ocean, so perfectly articulated by James Joyce in Ulysses, the sea, the snot green sea, the scrotum tightening sea. Probably not appropriate language for a national address, but impossible not to think about. Like the brave men marooned in this doomed vessel, the president had also served in the armed forces. A naval commander, he had been decorated for valor above and beyond the call of duty.

But nothing he did could ever compare to the sacrifice or the courage. of the men he now eulogized, men who faced their horrible fate alone in the basin of a distant sea. The president read on. In ancient days, men looked at stars and saw their heroes in the constellations. In modern times, we do much the same. But today, our heroes are epic men of flesh and blood. Others will follow, and they will surely find their way. home. Man's search will not be denied, but these men were the first, and they will remain

foremost in our hearts for every human being who looks up in the nights to come will now know that there is some corner of another world that is forever mankind. The President waited a beat and concluded, with God bless these brave men, the bravest among us. and God bless America. It was without question the greatest speech the president had ever given, and certainly the most empathetic. Those with him in the Oval Office that evening, the First Lady, the Secret Service, and the Vice President were all moved to tears.

But happily, nobody else was, because happily, nobody else heard it. You see, the television camera in the Oval Office, office wasn't rolling that night when the president delivered his solemn remarks because the intrepid men aboard that famous ship against some very long odds would escape the clutches of that distant sea and make it back to terra firma but it was a very near thing and for a few nauseating hours their fate was far from certain in fact the most optimistic predictions had put the odds of their safe return at 50-50, which is why the president asked a speechwriter named William Sapphire

to write a few words he could share with the American people should the coin flip the wrong way. Words that President Richard Nixon read aloud with great feeling and emotion as he rehearsed The speech. He prayed he'd never have to give. The speech, he was prepared to deliver if an exploratory vessel called the Eagle, and her two-man crew had become stranded in the lunar mare of the Tranquilitatis Basin. The lunar sea, from whose born no traveler had ever returned, the waterless sea found on no earthly map, where the dragons still roam, the sea of tranquility on a place called the moon. Anyway, that's the way I heard it. Do do, do, do, do. My guest today, Tom Albinis, is an American giant, and I'll tell you why.

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American Giant, American Made. Seven years in. Seven years in, and it's occurring to you that the record button is just key. What does this button do? Gosh, you know, what? That would be a chilling thing to hear if you were in mission control in Houston monitoring the conversations between Buzz and Neal and you hear one of your your astronauts. Query,

what does this button do? Right, right. You know what I always think of when I see mission control? Because the guys are always like, you know, they have those little white styrofoam cups and their chain smoking cigarettes. And I think, man, man, how many times did they, dropped that right on the panel and then it went down in. It's like, it's like, really, guys? You know? Right, right. That's an interesting thing that's been sort of burned into our collective consciousnesses. I think the site of mission control from that fly on the wall angle, right? An elevated camera. It's looking down. It's always black and white. The shirts are usually short-sleeved, white Oxford button down, right? The ties are always black. The haircuts are somewhere between

crew cut and just uptight, you know, everybody's squared away. The glasses are horn-rimmed, but there's always just a sheen of perspiration on all those freshly shaven upper lips. And you're right, the smoke is everywhere. So much tension. I mean, the fun thing about writing this and going back and reading some of the supporting materials was being reminded of one of those moments that actually occurred in our lives, but so long ago that it could have been before we were born. It wasn't, but the whole thing just had that otherworldly feeling. And then all the conspiracy theories that have happened around the whole Apollo 11 thing over the years. And so much, you know, I mean, I've written about Buzz Alder, and I've written about Neil Armstrong. I remember, do you remember

when they landed where you were? You must have been four or five. Yeah, this was 1969, right? It was July. So I think I had just turned six. Am I doing that math right? I was born in 63's. Yeah, that's about right. So six, I just turned six years old. You were seven and a half. I was halfway through seven, yeah. Yeah. I don't remember where I was, but I remember I was on floor. Put that on a t-shirt, brother. Sitting on the floor, passed out drunk. No, you know, I was a kid, obviously.

So I was basically the remote control for the adults. Not that you needed to change the channel. Everybody was locked in, you know. It was a black and white TV. I think it was in my grandparents' formal living room, I think. But I'm not 100% sure. Every channel. Live.

Yeah. That's another thing. Right. Aside maybe from the Super Bowl today, there's just nothing to even compare. There's no more shared experiences on television. So it was such an interesting combination, I think, of successful exploration, mind-bending technology, but so galvanizing. To have, like, everybody with the TV had, if you didn't have a TV on, like, if you had a TV but didn't have it on, I don't know that you were. You were dead. Yes. You were being thrown somewhere in your basement having fallen down the stairs because everybody had it on.

It had to be. Everybody with the TV must have been watching. And if you didn't have a TV, you were at a neighbor's house who did. Yes. Which only accentuates my point of a galvanizing event. You know, we weren't simply joined by the image on the screen. To your point, we were forced to congregate and gather together because there were plenty of people who didn't have TVs, you know? That's right. Yeah. I mean, it was still a, I mean, it wasn't a new thing. It was 1969, but we were a total black and white, 13 inch. Remember the little house I grew up in? You know, there used to be a porch. And when you walked in that front door, there was a piano where my mother was usually sitting. And in those days, we had a little black and white TV that we moved from room to room. Like we would put it in the kitchen. We would put it in the room where we had the wood stove.

On that particular night, we had it in the living room. And it was summer. And the screen door was shut, but the main door was open. And we could hear like the crickets outside. And I was sitting cross-legged on the floor. And this is another interesting thing. Talk about like memories and false memories. And did that really happen? Or it's just the way I heard it. But I remember. my dad walking me out onto the porch, off the porch, on of the lawn, and pointing straight up at the moon and saying, do you understand, son? Do you understand? Up there on that thing, men are standing. And, you know, I mean, I kind of got it when I watched the TV, but it wasn't until he took me by the scruff of the neck and pointed up that it was like, oh, that, and how far away is that? And how far away is

again? And suddenly, like, we're in the Encyclopedia Britannica, obviously there's no second screen. There's no instant Google. There's no real technology to speak of. And so suddenly I was so interested. How far is the moon? Where did they actually land? How long will they be up there? What will happen if they run out of air? What sort of sorcery? What kind of necromancy? What manner of witchcraft is going to occur? What kind of of math. I mean, I didn't even understand what math was, but I knew that something impossibly complicated needed to happen for this thing to have a happy ending. See, I didn't. I didn't understand any of it. I wasn't really impressed by the feet of it because I'm like, I've seen

people get on airplanes and go places that I can't see anymore. It's like, I can see that. So they got on an airplane and they went straight to that. I don't see the airplane, but, you know, know, I know they're there. I'm like, what's the big whoop? You know? Yeah. Oh, isn't it funny how the world gets smaller as you get older and as the technology evolves to make it so, right? I remember doing a play. Oh, you'll remember it. I think you saw it inherit the wind. Yeah. Uh-huh. Sure. The famous Scopes monkey trial where Clarence Darrow and William Jennings, Brian, are having this colossal argument about whether or not the Bible should be in the schools and what to do when science challenges our basic creation beliefs and so forth and so on. And there's a moment where Darrow

talks about the price, the hidden price of technology. And remember, this is back in the 20s. So he's talking about long distance telephone, telephony. And the, and the, you know, the, you know, miracle that you could pick up a phone and actually call somebody in the next county, in the next state, even across the country. It seemed impossible. And everybody was so enamored, so besotted by the incredible change that that brought in. But here is Darrow going, but what did it really cost us? It cost us the charm of distance, you called it.

Right. The charm of distance. And I just remember standing backstage and watching the actor do that speech and going, of course, of course there was a price to pay. I'd never thought of it that way. You know, we had only just upgraded from a rotary phone to a push button. We were not exactly on the cutting edge of that kind of thing in my household. That was cutting edge, though. the push button was a big, you know, instead of jig-tik-tik-d-d-k-d-k-d-k-dka.

Yeah. But what did we lose? What was the cost of that? The thrill of anticipation. Right? I mean, look, I think a lot of people are probably, well, what the hell are you talking about? But I do think when you think about the charm of distance with telephones, now imagine it with airplanes, all of a sudden, I'm not saying, gosh, things were better when we could get from

coast to coast. you know, with horse and buggy and covered wagon versus automobiles versus, you know, a 767, I'm just saying, as the world gets smaller, our sense of wonder also diminishes. And it's happening right now, dude, I'm sitting here on this, on this application. I'm looking at you. You're 500 miles away. We totally take it for granted now. Every hookup, every connection. every cell phone call, every successful internet search, every single thing. And now with AI coming, my God, what's the real price of all this going to be? Again, I'm not bemoaning it.

I'm just saying of the feelings in my life that I will never forget is the understanding of looking up at the moon from the front yard with my dad, just feeling all of those miles and all of that distance and just going, man, because I know there's a thing called gravity. You know, I know there's force equals mass times acceleration. I knew that something crazy would have to happen to get them home. That feeling was scary but also kind of delicious, really. Well, think about this.

Think about that in 1903, the first successful flight of an airplane took place. right? And then in 1969, we land two men on the moon. And keep in mind that we did it with technology not as advanced as the cell phones that we all carry around now. Like the computing power in our, not even close. I mean, there were hamsters in these things back in the 60s, you know. And so that all happened in 66 years. Am I doing that math right? Okay, yeah. No. Well, yeah.

Well, 1903 to 69 is 66 years. So in 66 years, man had never flown, and now here we are able to take flight, you know, even though it was brief, it was the beginning, it snowballed after that. And 66 years later, we land two men on the moon. Where are we going to be 66 years from that? What year would that be? One generation. One generation away.

And increasingly one world away. And I don't know how I feel about this either. You know, I flew home yesterday from Hawaii. And, you know, this freaks me out, man. Every time I get on a certain carrier, there's this giant logo on the door that says, One World Alliance. We're part of the One World Alliance. Like, what the hell does that mean?

I don't like it. What does it mean? I don't like the idea yet. It's a bit of a utopia. Maybe, maybe if it is, if the whole world eventually becomes united around it. a couple of basic ideas and beliefs, that'll be a good thing. But we're not there yet. We don't have a One World Alliance.

Not even close. No. And I only pointed out because in spite of that remarkable progress that you and I take for granted, you know, here we are enlightened, sophisticated with access to all the information in the world, just a Google search away. There are still people on this planet deep in the Amazon who, have in the last decade looked up into the sky and seen a plane for the first time, that to me is what's shattering.

You know, when you think about the moment when the entire country is gathered around the TV set, theirs or neighbors, galvanized by this moment, trying to get their head around it, there were many, many, many other people who couldn't even contemplate the existence of a television set, much less a pressurized capsule that would get you to the moon. And when those people see a 767 for the very first time flying over them, as has happened in the last 15, 20 years, no, the world is not in lockstep. The world is not experiencing tech all at the same time. Increasingly, we are more and more.

The Internet has shrunk the world, obviously. Travel has shrunk the world. clearly, and it is getting smaller and smaller. But we're not a one-world alliance just yet. No, we're not. What that made me think of when you were talking about the people in the Amazon jungle seeing a plane for the first time is like the Indians here, the Native Americans, you know, in North America and all the Americas, the North and South, Central, blah, blah, blah, who are seeing people roll up on their shore, who look totally different, wearing different stuff, you know, using a lot of metal, having a week.

feel. Like, you know, I've heard people say that they were 5,000 years behind technologically from where the pilgrims were when they landed. Right. And that is just a gap that, like, how do you, in Europe, everybody was close together. That's right. So there, you had to be a little bit more inventive. And you also learned what you saw, you know, you reverse engineered stuff you saw. It's like, why is this giant rock hurling at me so quickly? Hmm. Oh, look at that treboschet they've got over there. Maybe that's right. So they made a trebicee.

Let me understand the physics of that. And then maybe I'll give you an improvement on the catapult. And then maybe I'll give you an improvement on this. Like technologies, we tend to think that all technology advances on the shoulders of that which immediately preceded it. And in many cases, it does. But there is such a thing as lost technologies. And that is super. frightening. And I don't, I'm not an expert on it by any stretch. I've read some books, but when you

think about different types of math that might have allowed the pyramids to be constructed in a different method, but then all of that knowledge was lost. Now suddenly you're in the ancient alien theory and hello history channel and I mean, you can go deep on all this stuff. But yeah, the idea that Europeans come to this continent and Native Americans see for the first time a new level of tech that clearly struck them as magic. It was just magic. I guess, yeah. I mean, there's no other way to say it. You know, like in Apocalyptic, there's a great scene, one of Mel Gibson's greatest underrated directorial achievements. Have you seen Apocalyptic? Yes. Yes. Oh, my God, dude. Yeah. You know, when Jaguar Paul escapes the human sacrifice he's about to star in because an eclipse occurs.

Right? And the Maya. are like, oh, God, here it goes. You know, the moon is eating the sun or something. Right. You know, and he runs off, and one of the greatest chases in the history of cinema unfolds. Well, you know, there were all kinds of people,

scientists from various countries. The anti, what they call it, the anti-kitheter device, I think, was found. Much better than an anti-catheter, for certain. Not an antichatheter. Don't try that at home, folks. Kithra. The anti-kithra device was found off

Kither and anti-Kitherto. these islands and it was like one of the first computers. It sounds like you're lifting when you say Kithar. They found the anti-Kithra off Barthalona, or it might have been Abitha, but it was some time ago. And where it's thousands of years old, it's not supposed to exist. It's basically a computer that allowed the scientists of the day to make all kinds of celestial computations that simply shouldn't have been possible.

but when you know an eclipse is coming, yeah. You're the man. And you visit a new group of people. You are in charge, okay? You basically just say one or two days prior, listen, here's what's going to happen. The world is going to go dark, and it's going to stay that way unless you do this, this, and that. And then I'll save you from it. And then you say, my God is angry.

He's angry at you. Yeah. Columbus did that. Yeah. Columbus knew that the eclipse was coming, and that's how he, ruled, I forget what island he was on. Do you remember what island that he landed on? He didn't, he thought he was in India, but he wasn't.

Oh, it starts with the sea, I think. Let's not reveal the depths of our ignorance, especially on a tertiary detour such as this. Let's just agree that understanding... The Bahamas, the Bahamas, San Salvador Island. San Salvador. It's like a sea, folks, only with an S. See?

Micro hooked on phonics. Oh, yeah, I like it. I like it. Trying to make a big point. D-Dood-Dood-Dood. Dumb. I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician.

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You know for me It's all of that together It's humanity losing the charm of distance Even as it is offered a front row seat to an advancement unlike anything we'd ever seen before. Even as it brought the whole world together to watch it, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And this speech that Sapphire wrote, he was good, man. He was good. And there's some great literary references in it. In fact, let me find it real quick. There was a poem called The Soldier, written by Rupert Brooke around the turn of the last century. if I should die, think only this of me, that there's some corner of a foreign field that is forever England. So that's what Sapphire does in this speech, you know, some corner of the sky that is forever mankind.

Yeah. I'm like, that's actually what got me, Chuck. When I stumbled across the speech, I'm like, oh, this could be a good story. Might be a fun recree too. But just that little line passing, you know, a presidential speech writer. referring to a not particularly well-known poem over 100 years old and putting his spin on it. And I read the whole speech again. And then I started thinking, you know, this is not what the story's about, by the way,

but as a frustrated writer, as somebody who takes a fair amount of time trying to get the right phrase just so, you know, I wonder how Sapphire felt. Like, what a weird mix of release. to see these men get off, get out of the Tranquilitatis Basin. But I wonder if there was a little part of him going, God damn it, nobody's ever going to hear this. This is some of the best stuff I ever wrote. Nobody's ever going to hear it. Some of the best stuff he ever stole, you know?

Yeah, yeah. He changed it. I was going to say something about fallback positions. Plan B, right? Like if you're Nixon, If you're Sapphire, if you're NASA, if you're any of those guys and those buttoned down white Oxford shirts, smoking cigarettes like the plane's going down, you know you have a plan B, maybe even a plan C. But it's just so horrific to think about, you know, these guys, the Eagle lands, they get out, they take their pictures, they get the phone call from Nixon, one small step for a man. one, actually that was the original quote.

Armstrong said one small step for a man. He says he said it. Yeah. Yeah, they say got lost in the translation or the transmission. Yeah. No, it doesn't, does it? No, it doesn't sound like it. But yeah, that's why the whole thing was fake.

That's why it was all fake. Right, there you go. That's the proof. Cheater's proof. Hey, listen, let me tell you what I loved about this story the most was the fact that I had nothing to do with it until you read me the first draft. Yeah. That, you know, you totally found this on your own. You wrote a draft and you said, hey, listen to this. And so I got, because it's very rare for me to get this experience, you know,

it happens from time to time, but not always. I have an inkling. Sometimes you'll pitch me the story without, you know, writing a draft. But in this one, you didn't tell me anything until you read me the first draft. And of course, I, you know, I'm thinking, what is he talking about? What is it? I'm thinking, see. And of course, I thought, ah, it's got to. be a submarine. What submarine? What president? Whatever. Blah, blah, blah. But then I think I got to the moon at some point, but it was late. The real fun part about these is the most indulgent part, which really is what we're doing right now, just shamelessly unpacking it as if people are sitting on the edge of their seats, desperate to know my process or something. They're probably comfortable. I don't think they need to be on

their edge of their seat. They probably relaxed or driving or, you know, at the gym. Yeah, treadmills. Yeah, treadbills. That's a good treadbills. We're maybe walking. You can do it, folks. You can do it. Don't quit now. Things are just about to get interesting.

Do another two miles. I'll keep talking. We'll burn that fat off together. In the weird sort of ramp up to trying to figure out, you know, if there's a decent misdirect or if this is worth anybody's time, I get distracted. And during that process, I read the account of the Tursk, the submarine that went down. And yes. And then a couple of other submarines that went down.

And the charitable disasters are the ones where the hall is immediately crushed or quickly crushed. And everything just vaporizes in a moment of horror. But the ones where the pressure stays and there's air and you're just on the bottom of the ocean and out of contact with anyone or at least out of reach. Maybe you're in contact, but out of reach. That would have to be the most terrible, the most terrible of things to be able to have my dad walk me out in the lawn again three days later and say, C-San, up there on the moon, are two American heroes who will never return. They risked everything. And now they're up there.

and then just to connect the dots on my own and to know that they're alive. They're alive now. I can, if I had a proper telescope, I could probably see them. You know, with a four times telescope, you can get an amazing view of the Mare, of the basin right now. But could you really see like the lunar module? No, of course not. But in my seven-and-a-half-year-old mind, I could. You know, I would be thinking, my God.

God. I mean, look, if we have the technology to put two men on the moon in 1969, surely we have a device that would allow us to see them, right? In my mind, I would think this. Yeah, okay. And it would haunt me. It would haunt the Jesus out of me, man, knowing, like going to bed that night, imagine a country going to bed, knowing that those two guys would never come back. Every time you look at the moon, you think of the two of them stuck there. Did you know, something else I learned sniffing around, no insurance company would write a policy on their life. No one. So Aldrin and Armstrong signed headshots, hundreds of publicity photos of themselves and gave them to their wives so they could auction them off in the event they didn't return.

Yeah. No insurance company would insure them, and the government didn't make a promise about it either because they were just, you know, your meat puppets. You must be this tall to get on this ride. And by the way, like if there were a warning sign, you know, some sort of disclaimer, some sort of release. Like, what kind of release do you sign in 1969 to sit atop a missile? chances are you're going to die. Yeah. The chances were very good. There's a sign. Have you ever been to Mount Washington in New Hampshire? I don't think so. The worst weather or the most unpredictable weather in America is at the top of Mount Washington. I didn't know that. Yep. And on a beautiful day, it's a terrific hike. But also on a beautiful day, it can be deadly because there's no such thing as a beautiful day. On Mount Washington. They start beautiful, but they can so quickly crap the bed, your head will explode.

The temperature can drop 60 degrees. It can go from sunny to snowy to blizzard conditions. It's crazy. And as you walk up, you are confronted with what I think of as the most honest signs I've ever seen. I mean, they spell out the dangers of the mountain. But then later, you know, they're like, Seriously, you're still walking? Did you not see the last sign? Listen, on this spot, X number of people have died over the years. So turn around and so forth and so on. I remember the first time I tested a shark suit, I went for a dive with the inventor.

Jeremiah, Sullivan, who's been on this podcast. Sure. Yep. And I didn't know I was going for a dive. I thought I was just making one of those steel shark suits. But after we made it, we go out and we dive and we swim with the sharks and we get bit. And at the last minute, Chairman, I was like, oh, yeah, I need you to sign a release. And nobody would believe this.

And thank God it's on camera. And Discovery didn't even want to include it in the show because it was so ridiculous. But the release was like, I, blank, understand that I'm about to engage in an activity that is both ill-advised and quite possibly suicidal. Swimming with sharks is a bad idea. they can bite you and probably will. They can tear you in half and might. The shark suit is a great idea, but in no way has been proven blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, by the time I got to the end of it, I realized, A, Jeremiah's got a great sense of humor.

And the fact that he created this thing was awesome. But B, it was the truth. And it's like, you sure you want to sign it, but the cameras are there, right? So I sign it and we swim and so forth. But the moral of that story is my insurance policy was canceled two weeks later. Lloyd's of London called Discover like, no. Because they saw that? They saw it.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. They're like, um, yeah. No. No. We'll write a policy on him. But if he's going to swim with sharks, no.

So. Right. what in the world did it mean for Aldrin and Armstrong to boldly go where nobody had done it before? And Collins. And Collins, yeah. Poor Collins. Yeah, he kind of took it in the neck, didn't he? Wait in the car.

We'll be back in a minute. Yeah, and take a trip around the moon while you're waiting, you know? Yeah. I mean, what must have been like to be on the dark side of the moon out of contact with anybody? Oh. Just by yourself? Yeah. You know?

In space, no one's ever done this before. You're the first person to do it. You saw your two guys land it. By the way, I don't know if you came across this in your research. They almost ran out of fuel before they landed the Eagle. 25 seconds. Seconds. Yes, that's all they had left.

Yeah. 25 seconds to land it or you can't land or get back. Oh, you'll eventually land. Yeah, you'll eventually land. But you ain't getting back. You know, you can't just drop a canister of gas down. onto the moon. Right?

There's nothing in life that compares. Like, I'm thinking about, okay, it's Christmas and I'm at the mall. And there's no place to park. And I'm circling and I'm circling. And I see somebody leave on the other side. It's like, okay, I got to get there. I got to get there. If I don't get there, that's it.

It just doesn't quite compare, does it? Doesn't equate? No, it really doesn't. You got to land the eagle. By the way, Buzz, what did they call? They called him Mr. Rendezvous. That was his nickname. Buzz?

Buzz's nickname? Yeah. No, or Colin's nickname. No, it was Aldrin because he had to do the math to help. Oh, right, right. When the computers weren't doing their thing because they were running on the aforementioned hamsters, he was out with like slide rules and stuff doing. Yeah.

I mean, that business, I think we talked about this before, but I heard one of the astronauts describe the math of that reuniting as analogous to saying, all right, you go on one side of the house with this golf ball. And I'm going to go on the other side of the house with this BB. And we're going to count to three. And we're going to throw them over the roof toward each other. And if they hit, congratulations, you live. If they miss. Oh. Sorry. We have some lovely parting gifts. float through space for the rest of your... Some corner of the space.

It's forever, very short life. Forever mankind. Yeah, man. Oh, my God. It's just incredible. I mean, all of those guys just, it's still mind-boggling, and it's still infuriating to hear all the talk of the conspiracies. They just never go away.

Yes. Do you know how this conspiracies came about? I know that there was a guy named, I think it's Kessing, Bill Kessing. Bill casing, yeah. Yeah. Former U.S. Navy officer. Yeah. Exactly.

Who wrote a book called We Never Went to the Moon, America's $30 billion swindle. Yeah. That's where it started. That was in 76, I guess. Right. And then there was a movie right after that. Capricorn One that was called. That just treated the whole thing like it was a giant hoax.

And it was pretty good. It was a great movie. But history really is a wheel, man. I mean, we were probably too young to really remember how the trust in government institutions had eroded in the 60s. You know, like, we're looking at it now, and we're experiencing it like it's the first time. Like, we're in the Amazon looking up and seeing the 767, and we can't believe. How could the NIH have lied to us? How could the CDC have lied?

How could our government have told us that there was a shred of science behind the social distance? When it just came out yesterday, that there definitively is not. How could they tell us that there was no way this thing originated in a lab when it seems crystal clear now that there was no way it didn't? We're living through all of this right now and we're going, well, that's it. You know, geez, you can never, we're never going to be able to trust our government again. But what in the hell was Vietnam? The stories we were told, the stories my dad was told in his generation, all of that stuff with Nixon and then Johnson and I mean, it was just so bad. It was just so bad.

And people were looking at all of that unraveling and going, why should we believe? Make the case the other one. Why should we believe you? These pictures look like they were taken. And well, today they look awfully amateurish, right? I mean, you can connect a lot of dots and conspiracies are fun. And then the next thing you know, you're Buzz Aldrin taking a swing at a guy. Yeah, that's such a beautiful, beautiful thing to see, man.

I love when he just hits that guy who challenges him. But, I mean, the thing, the reason that I go, this is, we landed on the moon. There's just too many people would have to be involved in this conspiracy to keep it quiet. And people can't be quiet, Mike. Tell me about it, dude. People cannot be quiet. They have to talk. They have to say things.

The truth eventually comes out, I think. Well, of course it does. I mean, that's why... I mean, it's not that people love to talk. It's that people love to share secrets. People can't keep a secret. And a conspiracy at its heart requires a nucleus of people to keep a secret. And the larger the secret,

the harder it is to keep, the more consequential the secret, the harder it is to keep. And the more people involved in the keeping of the secret, talk about math. You don't need a slide rule to figure this out, but you're talking about hundreds of people at NASA. You're talking about people in the news media, right? They would have to be, there's just no way. There's just simply no way. You're talking about lots and lots and lots of people who are still alive to this day, who would have had to have been up to their necks in this. Yeah, I agree with you. I think we went to the moon.

I can't prove it, but everything I've learned about the human condition says there's no way it could have been faked. Look at everything I just mentioned. And I know it's controversial. I know people listening now are like, what are you saying, Mike? What are you saying about the lockdowns? Are you saying there was an overreaction? Yeah. I think they've heard you say that before.

Yeah, I'm saying it. Pretty sure. Was it scary? Absolutely. Yeah. Was there a sudden lack of certainty? Yeah. Were we asked to believe something that seemed incredulous? Like we went to the moon?

Yeah. We were asked to believe a lot of incredulous things. And we did. And now a lot of people are coming out and saying, listen, I don't think that was real. So it's funny, right? You get to pick your conspiracy. You get to pick. How charitable do you want to feel towards the people who are talking about crisis?

actors and Sandy Hook, how charitable you want to hear toward the people who are still arguing that we never went to the moon versus how charitable do you want to feel toward people who are saying, look, it came from a lab. The original masks weren't as reported. Like, we're in it right now. We're right there. We're right there at a moment in time that feels fresh and new and totally unexampled. And yet there is nothing fresh. or new, ever. It's all been done. You know, the tech changes.

But the stakes don't. And the desire to find the truth doesn't. And the desire to warp the truth. That doesn't change either. One big, giant world of the way we heard it. Is it weird

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ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hire. Well, listen, I think we both can agree then that we landed on the moon, but I think we also can both agree that we never circled the earth because the earth is flat. and I've seen the evidence and it's powerful, Mike. It's powerful. Do you know how many people seriously? I mean, Google it. I mean, flat earth society.

It's a thing. It's a thing. It used to be a joke. That used to be the punchline of a joke. Oh, what are you? A member of the Flat Earth Society? Yeah. And now people might go, yeah, as a matter of fact, I am.

You know, what can you say, you know how? Well, I say, look at a globe. It's round. It wouldn't be round if the earth were flat. Am I right? See, that's not totally persuasive. That logic is not good? No, it's not good. Speaking of globes, Mike, are you aware that the Hick-Sunt Draconis, Hereby Dragons?

Hickson-Racones, yes. Do you remember where that first appeared? Did you this come up? Yeah, oh, yeah. Well, look, I was under the impression that maps of the ancient world were filled with this, I guess it's Latin. Hickson-Torcones. I had always assumed, because I believe I had been told,

that indicated the end of known exploration, you know. These people lied to you. These people lied to you, Mike. I wonder if they lied or if they just passed on, you know, the way they heard it. I mean, honestly. Right. Because, no, I was surprised. It's Hixon-Turcones, if it ever appeared, if I recall, there's a small globe.

Yes. And it's written on there. But there's some dispute that it was written in order to indicate the end of exploration, or if they were literally saying, they're dragons here, like Komodo dragons in Indonesia. Correct. Something like that. That is correct. Yes. It was the Hunt Lennox Globe. And yeah, they believed that possibly it was in reference to the Komono dragons, that they were literally saying, here be dragons and not, this is the unexplored territory. That's a fascinating tidbit, don't you think? Yes, is my answer. But it's also relevant.

Look, credit where it's due, you don't know how to start a podcast. You're not sure where the record button is, as we've established. But by God, every now and then, it's a shattering bit of relevance, given everything we've talked about. Because, like, did you share my misconception? Did you believe that the maps were full of? 100% yes. Yes. So what we have here, I believe they call it the Mandela Effect.

Yes, I was just going to say that. Yes. I love the Mandela Effect. I mean, the Mandela Effect really is, I'm not going to say it's science, but at least it's a thing with the name that I've constantly tried to reference to with the way I heard it. It's the reason to approach conversations in this day. age with a level of modesty because I was certain old maps said here be dragons. Yep.

And when I found out they weren't, I titled this piece, Here Be Dragons. If you go back and listen to the part where I mention it, I changed the language because I had originally written where the old maps say and now it says something along the lines of where you might have found on an ancient map, the words, Xontercones. So in a way, I was reinforcing a fallacy and doubling down on the Mandela effect. But I have to do that in these stories because part of the fun is reinforcing a myth and then maybe debunking it later in a conversation like this. Well, it's the way you heard it, Mike, after all. Well, but what do you call it when the way I heard it is also the way you heard it and the way a million other people heard it?

Is it a myth? Is it a misconception? And we're all wrong. It's the Mandela effect when we're all wrong. And where did that come from? Do you remember? Yeah, it came from a woman, a parapsychologist or a paranormalist, actually, so like a pseudoscientist, who was convinced that Nelson Mandela died in prison in the 80s and wrote about it on her website. And when she was corrected, thousands of people came out of the woodwork to say, no, no, she's not. wrong. She's right. I remember it. So it's really a shared memory that is rooted in something that's not factually accurate. Rooted in fake news. Well, yeah, you could call it that, I guess, but this is what I alluded to earlier. When I told my dad about that night, I'll never forget when I was seven and a half years old and he took me out onto the lawn to point up at the moon. He said, I don't remember that. And I said, boy, you call me a liar? He said, no.

I'm just saying, I don't think that happened. I have no memory of that at all. So I can't prove that that happened. And my mother doesn't remember it happening. But Chuck, I remember it like it was yesterday. Right. I can't prove any of this. Now, that's not really the Mandela effect,

because nobody else shares my personal recollection. But if you get a bunch of people in the room and say, true or false, The Monopoly guy, the tycoon on, you know, the, what is it, the community chest? Monopoly. Yeah, that guy. Yeah, he's, yeah. The Monopoly guy.

Yeah, he's on all the commercials. He's on the front of the box and stuff. Yeah, he wears a monocle. He's got a monocle, right? Everybody knows it, except he doesn't. Mm-hmm. The Monopoly guy has somehow been conflated with, like, Daddy Warbucks or Mr. Peanut. It's Mr. Peanut.

Yeah, yeah. Right. That's weird. That's weird. That a majority of the people, you know, we weren't lied to, in other words. It's not like somebody came out and said, hey, Nelson Mandela is dead and he died after 27 years in prison. That never happened. That's not fake news. No one told us that, at least not from a position of authority. And yet so many people thought it was true. So many people think Monopoly guys got a monocle. What's the other? Oh, Cornucopia on Fruit of Loom. Everybody thinks all of the fruit on the underwear label is in a cornucopia, but it's not. It's not. But that one is partially true because there was a time is what I read, that there was a time when there actually was just a little bit. They sold the company. I don't know. I could be wrong.

Anyway, it's getting late, and I have a quiz that has your name on it. I would like to ask you your questions. You're not really in charge. Are you sure you're not done? Yeah, I'm sure. You know, I try to be. What's the only book that Oscar Wilde ever wrote? I don't know.

His autobiography? It was the very famous story of a man who appears to never age like Benjamin Button. But the reason is because... Oh, the mystery of Dorian Gray? Not the mystery. No. But close. The portrait of Dorian Gray.

Ah, thank you. Is exactly what most people would call you. call it, but it's not. It's not the portrait of Dorian Gray. It's the picture of Dorian Gray. Really? Yeah. Oscar Wilde wrote a book called the picture of Dorian Gray in survey after survey, the overwhelming majority of people who remember the book and who have read the book, recall it as the portrait of Dorian Gray. But it's not. It's very fascinating. Why would he use the word picture. I mean, like when I think of picture, I think with a camera. When I think of portrait, I think a painting. There's paintings and there's pictures. That's true. And it's doubly confusing

because there is a painting. A portrait of Dorian Gray is in the story. And it's the portrait that ages, not the character. Correct. Right. But nevertheless, the novel is called the picture of Dorian Gray. And it was further confused by, I think, a movie came out the portrait of something, something. Doesn't matter. The point is, there's this confluence of people who slowly begin to assume a thing is true. Yep. And the next thing you know, you've got a consensus. And the next thing you know, here it is right on the wikis. What's it say? The picture of Dorian Gray. What? I'm not making stuff up. Unless I am. I am. That was a real-time fact check, Mike.

Just keeping you honest. That's all. You know. Well, look, everything about this podcast, this conversation, the story you just heard and the stories you'll hear in days, weeks, and months to come is under the umbrella of a disclaimer. I think that's been made clear abundantly. It's called the way I heard it. It's not called the way it was.

You know, last guy to get away with that was Walter Cronkite. And that's the way it is. And that's the way it was. No, she said the way it is. The way I remember it, Mike, and I think everybody out there will agree with me is that that's the way it was. No. No, Google it. As long as you're real-time fact checking me, Google Walter Cronkite, and that's the way it is. And I think what you'll find is that's how he used to sign off on the newscasts. And he used to include the date. Friday, May 17th, and that's the way it is. Friday, May 17th. Blah, blah, blah. All right. Yeah, you're right. And that's the way it is following. followed by the date of the broadcast.

All right, great. Well, good job. Very good. I have a question for you, Mike. Have a question for you. Who made the first American flag placed on the moon? Who made the first American flag placed on the moon? Oh.

And when I say Maine, who sold it? Obviously, that was Betsy Ross. You know, and she had help from Dorian Gray. You got Google it. You bet. And it was a portrait of a flag. Right? And it was delivered to the moon. A lot of people don't know this by Nelson Mandela. Yes, that's right. Exactly. Oh, you got it.

No, actually, Sears. No kidding. And they got a flag from Sears. And they never mentioned that it came from Sears because they didn't want to cause the uproar that happened before with Tang. Oh, right. The astronauts love Tang and suddenly Tang was everywhere. We had Tang. Sure. It was awful.

No, it was terrible. Why would you ever pick Tang over like real orange juice? I don't know. Which brings me in my next question, which has already been answered, which was what did Neil Armstrong say when he first stepped onto the surface of the moon, according to him anyway, which is, go ahead, say it. One small step for a man. One giant leap for mankind. Yeah. And I'm going to play it right here.

Sure doesn't sound like that, does it? No, it didn't. All right. How long were Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong in the sea of tranquility? Oh, like maybe, about 100 hours maybe? No, that was the whole mission. Oh, oh, oh, on the sea. Oh, well, not long.

I'll say, I'll say 20 hours, 25. Pretty good, in between, 21 hours and 38 minutes. You know what I love about that? They didn't sleep, right? I mean, the whole mission. Dude, that's my next question. How did you know this? You must have looked it up.

Because I don't just write stories, Chuck. I do research. I thought it was the way you heard it. Well, I'm not making stuff up, but I think I know what you're going to say. You're going to say they landed and they were scheduled for their nap. Right. Well, my question was going to be, once Neil and Buzz both got back in the lunar module, what did they do? Oh, that's when they slept.

They slept for seven hours. They slept for seven hours, right. And now tell your story about them, you know, when they land. Well, again, just to bring it back to me, as I love to do, I think of all the things I've done in my life where I haven't had enough sleep, but I've done them anyway, you know? I mean, nothing of great consequence, but, you know, I was up for three days straight once and did a shift on QVC. And it was like being drunk, only different.

You're hallucinating when you've been up for, God, was it, 50 hours or so. That's crazy, yeah. Yeah, well, there was a giant snowstorm, and I was the guy on the air when they closed all the roads, and nobody could get in, and they just kept broadcasting and broadcasting. It's a ridiculous comparison, but imagine you get to the moon.

You're doing a thing nobody's ever done. You haven't slept, and you're freaking exhausted. Yeah, right. But are you really going to lie down and get some shut-eye before you walk on the moon? It's right out there. It's right down the ladder. You're looking at it.

You're like, hey, guys. You know something? We're going to call an audible. We're going to go ahead and walk on the moon now. Take some pictures. And then we'll get some shut eye and then we'll do it again. Yeah. I love that.

Also, by the way, not the first words, Armstrong uttered, regardless of what he said exactly. I think Buzz Aldrin first looked out the window and said, magnificent desolation. I thought that he was looking at his panel and said, Engines off was the first. Yeah. first words uttered on the surface of the moon.

But what Armstrong said when he got on the moon, when his feet were planted on the moon, that's when he said, that's one small step for a man. That's right. But when they landed on the moon, Aldrin said, okay, stop engines. Then I believe he said, at least the way I heard it, magnificent desolation as he stared across the mare tranquillitatus. Yeah. And then there was one more thing that he did that you wrote a story about.

I sure did. Do you want to spoil it? There were two stories. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what are those episodes? I don't know. Don't wreck it.

That's a good story if you haven't heard it. There's no way to tell them to go get it. No, there's really not. Oh, sorry. That's unfortunate. Too bad. This is really bad. That's why we have editing, I suppose.

Oh, episode 100. Go listen to episode 100. or 101. It's either 100 or 101. All right, man. Let's start to land this plane. Ask me another question if you got one. I got one.

What unusual items did Neil Armstrong bring with him on the lunar module? Unusual items. Oh, good question, because I believe it circles back to an earlier beat in our conversation. I think he took some pieces of the flyer. Maybe like the original airplane, the Wright brothers.

Right Flyer number one. Yes. I think that's what it was called. Yeah, muslin fabric and pieces of propellers from the Wright Brothers plane. Now in the Smithsonian, no doubt. That's correct. That's exactly where it is. Well, all in all, good story, Mike. I like this story a lot. Well, thank goodness. There is one other thing I want to talk. You know, I write them for you exclusively. You know, you call me up and say, hey, you want to hear a story. And so I'm just trying to keep you involved, man. I'm just trying to. I appreciate that. Well, I don't necessarily value your feedback. I have. I have. gotten used to listening to it. It's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. I want to ask you about something else. I understand there's a movie coming out. Oh, man. Yeah, you know what? A movie. The stories on this podcast, nine of them, have been adapted for the big screen.

The movie is called Something to Stand for. It's coming out on the 27th of June. And if all goes as planned, we'll run for seven or eight days through the fourth of July. This is not a political movie. You will not hear words like Republican or Democrat or liberal or conservative, but trigger warning. It is patriotic and unapologetically so. These stories are all patriotic in nature and we stitched nine of them together with a really cool trip. I just took a couple of weeks ago to our capital. So what you'll see in the film is some unexpected encounters on a grown-up field trip to Washington, D.C., juxtaposed with nine mysteries for the curious mind

with a short attention span. It's called Something to Stand for. I just looked at the trailer, and you can look at it as well. It's over at something to stand for.movie. Something to Stand for. I sent people over there the other day on Facebook before it was built. So my bad. But it's working now. That was so funny, man. Yeah, hysterical.

And I saw that you'd done that. I was like, oh, no, no, I don't think it works yet. I did it from the airplane flying back from Coney. And I'm like, oh, you know, talk about technology. Imagine that sentence happening in 1969, you know. I'm flying back from Kona and I took my laptop to create a link to go to a website to buy some tickets to a film I just finished for independence. There's a few words in there that are unrecognizable in 1969. Thank God we're in 2024.

A website, etc. Seriously, not to oversell it, but if you're a fan of this podcast, you're going to love this movie and if you're still a fan of these United States. And I hope you are. You know what I read the other day that gave me pause? Do tell. 52% of people under 45 when asked directly if they're proud to be an American said no. Yes, I saw that as well. And you know what's galling about that is that those are educated people.

I know. Those are people who were educated in America. It's like, how could you? How could you not? It's like we've totally lost the ability to be critical of our elected officials, to be skeptical of the people in power, to be dubious. about a great many claims, whether it's going to the moon or whether it's, you know, take your ninth booster, right? Whatever it is. We've confused our ability to think independently with a kind of malice for the country we have.

And the country we have is a hell of a place put together by people who took enormous risks, did incredibly dangerous things on our behalf and paid a heck of a price. So the movie is a shout out to them. I swear to God, it's not political. It is patriotic. And I hope a bunch of people see it. Me too. You're going to see it?

Well, I've already seen a couple of cuts. Yeah, but not in the theater. Not in the theater. Not yet. No, but yeah, I'll go see it in a theater for sure. I'm trying to think where I'm going to be when that happens on the 27th of June. You're going to be inside a theater with your hand and a bucket of popcorn probably, staring. That's probably true.

slack-jawed with glassy-eyed wonder at the spectacle on the screen. My head looks enormous on the big screen, by the way. I can't even imagine it, honestly. It is like a horse head. It looked like you could land a plane on that forehead. Well, speaking of land in the planes, we're officially done. Thank you, everybody for listening to whatever this was. I hope you enjoyed it.

We'll be back next week with an actual guest. I think. I hope. Yeah, we will. Yeah. But this is a story. I mean, because this is what we're doing right now is every month we're giving you one new story and a conversation afterwards. So that's true.

And I think the aforementioned is rife with attendant value. I just don't think we had an actual guest on this one. Like imagine, for instance. No disrespect, but you're a producer. What if we brought on an astronaut like our friend Scott Tingle? Or what if we brought on the woman who created the Mandela effect to talk about my false memories or we're doing it this way because, you know, because people say that the two of us together add up to something greater than the sum of the parts, right? And that's a positive thing. People still

like you. They're still curious to see when I'm going to fire you. They keep coming back from, I am, too. I am too. I mean, you really came out of the gate hot on this one. I got to be honest. Oh, I'm not recording. Can we, what? Six years, dude. It's the red button. Well, and keep in mind, I couldn't log on to the platform before we got on. We started like 45 minutes late. I know. Speaking of which, I have to go. They could put a man on the moon. They could put a man on the moon, but I can't get you to in here clear on this freaking platform when I need to. Good point. Well, folks, let me say it another way. I'll be back next week. Maybe Chuck will too. Tune in to find out.

Till then, something to stand for. Dot movie. Get your tickets now. I do believe. they're going to go quickly. Adios. We got a question, just one little question, so here is our question for you. If you dig the podcast that we do, won't you leave a quick five-star review? I really hate to ask much more of you. But please subscribe. Oh, please subscribe. All we need of five little lousy stars.

Tell us what you like and who you are. Then share us with your friends down at the bar. And then subscribe. And then subscribe. And then subscribe. And then subscribe. And then subscribe. And then subscribe.

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