The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 388: Riley Gaines—Swimming Against the Current

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

The 12-time NCAA All-American, 5-time SEC Champion, and 2-time Olympic qualifier who went from being one of the fastest collegiate swimmers in the world to a controversial women's rights advocate talks about what it takes to train in a pool six hours per day, why she's not going to be training to be an endodontist, and recounts the harrowing experience of being held captive on the campus of San Francisco State University. Her new book is  Swimming Against the Current: Fighting For Common Sense in a World That's Lost Its Mind. 

Well, hey there. It's the way I heard it, episode number 388. And this one is called Swimming Against the Current. So, too, is the latest book by Riley Gaines. I say latest book, Chuck, but I think it's her first book, right? It is her first book, yeah. But it's both, actually. Her latest and her first. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you only get to say that once. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, you can only say that if you've written one. and she's written at doozy. Riley Gaines, of course, is the famous swimmer who became famous first for swimming really fast and winning like 12 All-American Awards

and accomplished swimmer. And then she took Umbridge. Yeah, what's SEC? SEC. Southern... Wrong. Security exchange commissions. Riley games... No, no, it's a difference.

She is not a financial advisor. No, it's the Southern something conference. Call yourself a producer. Where the son of a? All right. Well, he figures out what the acronym is. Let me tell you why you should hang on to every word of this conversation.

It's honest. It's dangerous. It's fun in parts. But it is chilling in other parts. This is one of those topics. I'm going to get some pushback on whatever. Look, I'm sorry. I prefer to have jolly conversations about

inconsequential things and have a few laughs with people I enjoy getting to know. But this is a big topic. This is a big idea because it impacts a lot of things beyond the business of trans rights, beyond the business of swimming, beyond Title IX, beyond all of that. We're talking about fair play. We're talking about justice in sports. And there are a lot of deeply held opinions on both sides of this thing. But the courage that Riley displayed when I was sitting here in San Francisco, Chuck, not too many years ago, just a couple, and watched her being attacked at the university here in town, taken hostage, ransomed, basically. And it was just so appalling. I just couldn't believe what I was looking at. And the more I started to pay attention to what was happening on the

campuses. What's SEC stand for, by the way? South Eastern Conference. There you go. So I was right. I just, southeastern is one word, I believe. So that's what confused me. All right. Well, look, confusion really seems to be the word of the day around this topic. People are confused. People are confused as to how to think. They're not sure what they can say. A lot of fair-minded people don't want to cause offense, but a lot of other people are really pissed off. They're angry that their daughters have been subjected to locker rooms that no longer feel like safe spaces. And a lot of people are really, really upset, myself included, full disclosure, that the playing

field is simply no longer fair. And if you haven't heard this story before, Riley does a great job of distilling it in our conversation. Her book does an even better job of laying it all out. but the stakes are significant and the issues go right to the very guts of what it means to be a free people, I think. And Chuck's holding up his finger as if he wants to say something. Go ahead. You're not supposed to say that. Well, you hold up your finger.

Go ahead. Well, I just want to say that all three of us, Riley, you, me, agree that if you're a grown-ass person, you can do whatever you want to do. but the idea of allowing men to compete with women is a bridge too far. And that's what she's fighting against. She's not fighting against trans or whatever. She's fighting against, you know, mixing the sexes in competition because men have a distinct advantage over women just naturally, inherently. Right. So, biology.

Yes. It's a good point, Chuck. What he's trying to do is just lessen, I think, the amount of unhappy emails that he gets from people who are saying that we're not being inclusive. It's not about that. We're really talking about this very simple, basic idea of fairness. And I think it's important. One other note before we get started, Chuck just used an expression that made me laugh. Grown-ass person, I think is what you said. And, you know, it just makes me think about the power of the hyphen. Like, if you take that hyphen from between grown and ass and put it between ass and person. What a different sentence you have, you know? He was such a grown ass person. That's right. You've made an ass person a thing, like you've changed the noun. I just find that fascinating because people use that expression all the time. They'll hyphen something and put ass behind it. And I would just challenge you in the future, friends. When you hear your friends use that turn of phrase, just quietly ask yourself,

what would that sentence sound like if you move the hyphen? Just one click over. File another stuff you didn't think you wanted to learn. But now you know, it's episode 388. It's awesome. And so is her book, by the way. Swimming against the current. The entire title is swing against the current, fighting for common sense in a world that's lost its mind, whereas Chuck would say, an ass world that's lost its ass mind. I don't believe I would say that. Well, be that as it may. The show has begun,

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Unbelievable. All right, well, great. I know. I'm just sitting here chewing the fat with Riley Gaines, and here we are already recording and everything. What I learned, I've learned you've been married two years. Your husband's name is Louis. You just lumped him in with a bunch of other

predictably named Europeans. What else did I learn? You like Chuck. You think I have a pretty good team. You got a brand new mic, and you got at least an hour to spend talking about whatever we feel like talking about. Boom. I say we can just wrap it right there.

That's everything everybody needs to know. No. But what I was saying prior to recording is that I'm just a huge fan of you guys. What you do, how you give back. It's amazing. So I am thrilled. I am honored to be on with you. I know, Mike, you are one of, I do some work with the Independent Women's Forum.

And a few years back, you were there. A gentleman of distinction, I believe. I was. I knew who you were before this, but that's really when I found out a lot of the work that you do that I didn't know about. So all of that to say, very big fan. Thank you. That's really nice to hear. I know I can speak for Chuck when I say that we've been watching really closely.

you're, I don't think Odyssey is too strong a word, a crucible, maybe. I mean, you've been on a trip, kiddo, man. It's just been amazing to watch. I have to tell you, it was so funny. I forgot that they called me a man of distinction. I had been up about probably 40 hours, and we had been shooting a show, and my partner, Mary, was like, look, you agreed to go give a talk at the Independent Women's Forum. And I said, why did I do that?

Who let me do this? That was my fault. I didn't even know what I was walking into. I didn't know anything about the forum. I liked everything I read about it, but I didn't really know what a whole bunch of independent women in one space was going to be like. And all I could think of is like, I'm going to be the only dude there. And they're going to be like a lot of independent. and women.

Oh, no. And I suddenly, like, really got in my head about it. But they were great. I sat at a table with, I think Harris Faulkner was there. Nikki Haley was at my table. It was a... It's amazing. You were there that night, or you just heard about it?

I just heard about it. You guys are old, so I was still in high school then. I was still in high school then. Wow, we could have done without the first part of that sentence. Yeah, you're a millennial. I don't think you're a millennial. I think you're a gen. Are you a millennial?

or a Gen Zier? Well, I was born in 2000, so I am a Gen Zir. But, you know, working in this political space now, really I am surrounded by old men a whole lot. Not to you guys. You guys are at least cool old men, but I'm around boring old men. And when I say I was born in 2000, they're like so shocked by this. So just turned 24. So I think this was in either 2017 or 2018. So I was still in high school. But working with them now. But you're working with them today. That's awesome. Yeah.

They do wonderful work. They do policy work. I mean, they're really one of the nations leading organizations who deal with a lot of the cultural, social, economical issues that we see that impact women adversely, humanity, but more specifically, women. Well, my partner, Mary, was blown away. In fact, she joined. It's a great organization, and I imagine they're probably up to their eyeballs right now in, well, everything you're up to your eyeballs in, all of which I want to get to. But first things first, have you been in a pool today? I've not been in a pool today.

I feel like I have PTSD from swimming. You know, growing up a summer you swim in college, at least you swim six hours every day. So now I kind of have to be forced to even get in the shower. I'm like, no, I don't want to get my hair wet. I do still swim. I'm swimming Alcatraz next month. I do a lot of running and triathons and marathons and different things. So I love being active.

I love exercising and working out. All of those things, still a very big part of me and who I am. I love competing. What do you mean you're swimming Alcatraz? You're swimming from San Francisco to Alcatraz? And then back. What? I mean, I'm literally.

literally looking at Alcatraz right now, Riley. Hey, July 12th, you're welcome to join me. I'll come pick you up even, Mike. That sounds both tempting and horrifying. You know, it's a little sharky out there, right? You have experience with this. Are you kidding? I feel like, what is the deepest catch?

Is that what it is? You're a pro. Deadliest catch. Deadliest catch. That's what it is. No, no. Let me explain. What I do on Deadliest Catch is sit behind a microphone, like the one you're behind right now.

Hey, but you have to see it. You have to see it. So maybe that's all the more reason to be fearful. No, come on July 12th. I'll even get you a wetsuit. It's pretty cool. We're swimming with a bunch of veterans, which I know is something that, again,

you've spent your time giving back to, paying attention to for sure. And so a bunch of wounded veterans, some who have no limbs, some who have been pretty severely burned. So it's a pretty cool thing. we do. So you're raising money with the vets for the vets? Yeah, I think that's the goal. Well, what's the occasion called? What organization? I'll send you some details about it.

Let's see, really quickly. Let me pull it up. It's... I have friends who do this every year, not necessarily this exact event, but, you know, I mean, it was a big deal. People who escaped from Alcatraz, who actually made it back. That didn't happen a lot. I mean, obviously, Riley's not escaping from anything. She's doing all this on purpose. And there'll be boats and they'll be nearby and you'll have some protection. But it's the current out there is sporty. I mean, no joke at all.

Yeah, so we'll see. I might even say you'll be swimming against the current, Riley. Hey, that was a good one. You have a career and some sort of stand-up comedy. But yes, because it's really not overly, like a super. long distance, I think a mile and a half maybe, but they say there are some days where the current is so intense, it's like swimming four miles. So I guess it just depends if God is in our favor that day, which I will be praying every day until then that he is. I imagine you will.

All right, so July 12th, you'll swim to Alcatraz. Money will be raised for wounded vets. That makes you awesome, but you were awesome anyway. Go back to what you just said. Six hours a day in a pool for how many years? That's right. I mean, I started swimming when I was four. I graduated when I was 22, so, I mean, dedicated 18 years of my life to my sport, which it doesn't get overly intense

until about eight, nine, ten years old. That's when you're practicing every single day, two hours a day. Then you turn 14, 15. You start doing doubles every day, which is practice in the morning before school. then you go to school, then you come back, then you practice again for another two hours, go to bed, wake up, do it all again the next day, then college. And let me tell you,

I thought I worked hard before college. I was wrong. This was a different kind of working hard. We were really in the water six hours every single day with three of those hours being before 8 a.m. So again, you practice from 5 a.m. to 8 a.m. go to class, come back, practice again from 130 to 430, ate our dinner at old pupil time of 445 because we were starving. Ice your shoulders, did your homework, went to bed, you woke up, you did it all again the next day. And that's not including any of our lifting sessions or extra dry land, extra ab circuits we had to do. A lot of time. Nothing ever made me hungrier than swimming.

I was on the swim team for one year at the YMCA. and I can't even describe it, Chuck. I mean, as a guy who's been hungry a lot, you know, right? You don't really, I mean, there's hungry. I could eat now. And there's, it's just, it's truly a ravenous feeling. And I don't know why swimming does it, for me anyway, in ways that other sports don't. She's just burning so many calories so quickly.

And you're not sweating. It's weird, you know, obviously, because you're in a pool. It is weird, and you're so right when I was swimming, I could eat whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and I still had six abs. I mean, it was ridiculous. And then I stopped swimming, and I still liked to eat whatever I wanted. But that didn't last too long because those abs slowly were fading, and I'm like, oh, no, this is a problem. What was a typical meal that you would have when you were really in your prime swimming? Gosh, we probably swam, let's see, we swam at least 15,000 yards every day, which is equivalent to about 10-ish miles. So, I mean, my days I probably ate six, seven thousand calories in one day.

I still am. I hate this about me. I don't eat very healthy. Like I said, I love exercising. I love working out. I love that aspect of fitness. I don't enjoy vegetables. I don't enjoy eating healthy.

I like fast food. It's a problem. I like Chick-fil-A. I like Taco Bell. I like McDonald's. That's what I ate a lot of. That's still what I eat a lot of. Less. But like, so let's say you go to McDonald's. What do you get when you were going to McDonald's when you were swimming? I would get a large sweet tea. I would get a large fry. I would get two McChickens and sometimes a McDouble. Just to let him know you're serious. So three sandwiches.

Oh, yeah. They're small sandwiches. Shrinkflation. Did your skin smell like chlorine all of the time? It's so wild you say that. And I think only someone who has spent time, an ample amount of time in a pool or who has been around someone who has would know that because yes. Like my aroma was just chlorine. And the funniest thing is, you know, chlorine is pretty toxic. It's not something I think about it. And I'm like, was this really?

Like, were we allowed? to do this. This doesn't seem very healthy, like long term. But swimming for my whole life, I didn't have eyebrows. I mean, my eyebrows were bleached off. And so I thought it was just because I had blonde hair. I just didn't grow eyebrows. But it turns out after I, you know, was done swimming, moved on, I do have eyebrows. They were just getting bleached and singed every day. So that was like the coolest revelation for me. It was like, oh my gosh, I have eyebrows. This is amazing. I want to read you something that you wrote. By the way, the book's awesome. It's called Swimming Against the Current Fighting for Common Sense in a world that's lost its mind. I probably should

have said that earlier. But as we get into this new chapter in your life and this crazy, crazy story, here's what jumped out at me first on page 14. There was one thing I hated the most about competing. Losing. I hated losing even more than I loved. I'd always been like that, and I still am. My husband won't even play Uno with me. Chuck knows this about me too. I like to compete and I like to play, but not as much as he does. And the reason is exactly the same.

I would prefer to win, but only because I hate losing so much. And that's different. There are other people who are wired differently, but how did that inform? inform your career, and how did that basic true thing about you set the table for this whole next chapter of your life? So I come from a family of athletes, pretty high-level athletes. My dad and all his brothers played in the NFL. My mom, she was a Division I want softball player. I mean, they all won Super Bowls and did incredible things. I have lots of siblings. They all played

high-level sports. My sister, she played softball. She went to Ole Miss. My brother. My brother, he's in college, he plays football, my youngest sister. She's an elite level gymnast. She's 15, so she's still in high school, and she's, I would never tell her this, but she's probably the best athlete of all of us. And so I think just having that family foundation, playing sports, competing with one another, parents who pushed me to be the best that I could be, I think that certainly kind of instilled this in me. But yes, as you said, it's something that I mean, it affected the rest of my college career for sure, but it transcends beyond athletics. I find even now, you know, setting goals, working to achieve those goals, not feeling satisfied

until those goals are achieved. It's still very true in my life. And I think that's a big factor in the success and the impact that I personally have been able to have, my team was able to have at University of Kentucky, how I'm able to go on, propagate myself forward in this fight that we're in now with a smile on my face, is because really I know we're winning. And that's a good feeling. But not to belabor the point, but what do you think is a more effective motivator? I mean, that's a bad way to ask it because you've already just said as much. But I'm just really interested in the difference between people who are driven to win versus those who are driven to not lose? I think it's just more so that feeling. I mean, again, I think back to college,

and I think of, I'm a lifelong Tennessee, and I grew up in Tennessee, but there's nothing I hate more than the University of Tennessee. Orange is so ugly. Rocky Top is the most annoying song ever. Their fan base is awful. There's nothing I hate more than University of Tennessee. Riley takes the pin out and drops the grenade and just walks away. People do listen to this podcast, Riley. You're going to stand. We have people in Tennessee. But look, it's better to be honest. I am the proudest Tennessee and you will ever find. But again, you won't catch me wearing orange or singing in Rocky Top. But nonetheless, I think it was my sophomore year, right before COVID, dealing with all of that. We race University of Tennessee, and we lost by three points,

which is a very, very small margin. And it was the worst feeling I've ever experienced in my life. I just remember feeling like I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach is how I felt. And I let that motivate me the entire next year, again, coming back, from COVID, dealing with that, I was certainly not pleasant in our sport, really in anyone's lives, I would say. But that's something being team captain, I reminded my team every day of in practice. It's how we held ourselves accountable, really, is, hey, remember that feeling when? And I can proudly say that that was, that next year was the first year, the University of Kentucky won a team SEC title beating Tennessee. So I was able to not only use that to motivate myself,

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So you were basically near the very top of your sport in that world at that time. Is that fair to say? Because look, this is a great mystery to a lot of people, to some degree myself included, but the NCAA and that level of competition, it's collegiate, but man, it's an awfully big deal to the people who follow it closely and a bit of a mystery to the rest of the people who don't. So if you can just frame it up a little bit, so people can understand, where were you in regard to the sport?

I very proudly finished my career at University of Kentucky as a 12-time NCAA All-American, a five-time SEC champion, actually the SEC record holder and the two-hundred, Butterfly, making me one of the fastest Americans of all time. Two-time Olympic trial qualifier. So did all of the Olympic stuff in 2016 and then again in 2020, which again rolled into 2021 because of COVID. I was the SEC scholar athlete of the year. I was the SEC community service leader of the year. So a lot of things that I will forever be proud of, things I'll forever hold close to my heart. It was the pinnacle. The NCAA, competing at that level qualifying for that championships.

It is confusing. First of all, swimming is not a mainstream sport. There's no, I'm not ashamed to say that. So a lot of people don't know. But the NCAA, we recruit from all over the world. So in reality, it's more competitive than the Olympics because of how deep the U.S. is in talent and skills and speed and those things, but also the fact that we're bringing.

bringing other people from around the country in, it's comparatively faster than the Olympics. When did Leah Thomas come into your life? So my junior year, I ended up placing seventh in the country, which I was proud of. It wasn't a best time. But, you know, your top eight, you're an all-American. It's a pretty high honor. But it was right then and there that I placed seventh in the nation that I set a for my senior year to win a national title, which would of course mean becoming the fastest woman

in the country in my respective event. And so, you know, senior year rolls around training, competing, and I'm right on pace to achieve this goal. About midway through my senior season, I was ranked third in the nation and the 200 free, trailing the girl and second, a girl I knew very well because like in most sports, your top tier athletes know of each other, regardless of where you compete because you've grown up competing against each other. So I was trailing her by a few one-hundredths of a second. But the swimmer who was leading the nation by body lengths, might I add, was a swimmer that none of us had ever heard of before. Not myself, not my teammates, not my coaches, not my other competitors, not my family, none of us. And this is the first time

we became aware of a summer name Leah Thomas. This was in November of 2021. And so I see this name. I'm just kind of confused more than anything. Who is this person? Why have I never heard of them before? I was looking at the facts in front of me. Keep in mind, I hadn't seen a photo of this person or anything like that. Otherwise, I think things would have been a little more clear. But for all I knew at the time, again, a senior, which is very bizarre, no one just comes out of nowhere their senior from University of Pennsylvania, which is not a school that has ever produced that level, that caliber of a swimmer,

leading the nation by body links and events ranging from the 100 freestyle, which is a sprint, and all of the freestyle events in between through the mile, which is, of course, long distance. And for those who are listening and watching who don't necessarily understand swimming, I mean, think about that last piece in terms of your Olympic runners. because that's like saying your best 200 meter runner is your best marathon runner. It doesn't happen.

Those are two totally different systems. But again, that's what we were seeing in this person. And so I'm scratching my head, talking to my coaches, who is this person? We had no idea. And we continued to stay in the dark. I even looked up, there's this database called USA Swimming. So for example, if you were to look up my name, you would see my time progression and my trend line from when I was eight years old all the way through college.

So I'm looking up the name Leah Thomas. There's no history of this person until that season. I'm so confused. And again, we remained confused until an article came out disclosing that Leah Thomas is actually Will Thomas and swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania before deciding to switch to the women's team. And when I read this, I was, of course, we were shocked. We were all shocked. But really upon reading it, it was like this overwhelming sense of relief. Honestly, it was like, oh, well, that makes sense.

That makes sense. He's a guy. That's why he's dominating. And it was at this point I went to look up on that same database who Will Thomas was. Because again, I was curious. You know, was this a lateral movement? Was this someone who went for ranking amongst the best of the men to now continuing to rank amongst the best of the women? which is of course not what we saw.

We saw that this was a mediocre man, and that's generous at best in the nation, the year prior, ranking 554th in the nation when competing against the men in the same event. To, again, now not just number one, dominating the entire country of women. That's really how I found out who Leah Thomas was, and it was about, you know, the NCAA.

They were sitting on the fence for a while, releasing statements. We don't know what we're going to do. Thomas is going to be allowed to compete with the women. They would retract that. They would put the statement back out again. And it wasn't until about three weeks before that national championships in March of 2022 that they finally released a statement and indefinite statement saying that his participation in the women's category was a non-negotiable, meaning there was nothing that we could do as female athletes. There was no questions that we could ask or concerns that we could raise. We were literally told we had to accept this

with a smile on our face. Explain to me what the NCAA is charged with doing. Who are they as a body of people? How do those people wind up in that position? And what, in your estimation, led them to conclude as they did? So the NCAA is, of course, the National Collegiate Athletic Association. they are in charge of, they're really, other than the NAA, the only national collegiate governing body.

So they don't just handle swimming. They do all the sports, as you guys know. They're Division 1, Division 2, Division 3. This was the Division 1. I mean, it was, like I said, the highest level meat you could achieve. And they had no problem saying, sorry, this is the way this is going to be. ultimately abolishing Title IX. I mean, Title IX is the federal civil rights law enacted in 1972, so 52 years ago,

that prevented sex-based discrimination on educational programs that receive federal funding. Only 37 words in its original implementation with one word being activity, which allowed Title IX to be what it was most notable for, which is giving equal opportunity for the sexes in sports. but this action by the NCAA in saying that men and women are the same, they're interchangeable, synonymous, it abolished Title IX. So you ask kind of what made them do this. I have a couple thoughts, and it's something that I honestly I still struggle with,

and talking with people who have governing positions, people on the board of governors at the NCAA, even speaking with the president of the NCAA himself, they have said time and time again, we know this is. wrong, but our hands are tied. Who's tying your hands? You're the president. So I think a lot of it has to do with money. As I said, I think they were fearful they wouldn't receive federal funding. I think they don't want to be sued. I think the universities, the individual universities, were terrified of any sort of pushback from a very fringe but loud minority. Well, they weren't afraid of pushback from you. In fact, what you said before, I think is interesting.

they told you not only to eat it, to take it, but to do it with a smile on your face. And I don't think you're being hyperbolic. Like they wanted you to be not just okay with it, but enthusiastically, okay, supportive of it. You know, get on the right team, Riley. Come on now, right? No, absolutely they did. That must have been surreal. Well, it was.

Again, me, a 21-year-old senior in college at the time. I had to go to sensitivity training where they brought in outside professionals, whatever that means, who sat me down, taught me how to use she, her pronouns. It was like a mock interview setting where they would ask me questions. I had to answer the interview questions to their standard. If I didn't, I had to re-go through the training. We were told you will never get a job again if you speak out about this. Your employer is going to look you up and see that you're a transphobe.

And you don't want that, do you? You know, you're never going to get into grad school. You're going to lose all your friends. You'll lose your scholarship and your playing time. Oh, yeah. And Riley, speaking of that scholarship, remember, you sign that. And when you sign that scholarship, they said, you gave away your rights to speak in your own personal capacity. Because remember who you represent, whose name is across your chest and across your cap, because it's not yours. It's ours. It's our university. And understand we have already taken your stance. for you. I could sit here and share accounts and examples of things like that, the threats and intimidation. I mean, the rest of the time that we talk. Thomas's teammates, they had to go to mandatory meetings every single week, of course, provided through the LGBTQ education center on campus to learn about how just by being cisgender, they were oppressing Leah Thomas. When 16 of those girls, his teammates, signed on to an email to UPIN, expressing their discomfort. in the locker room, some of those girls actually having been sexually assaulted and raped in bathroom settings before, a very traumatic experience for many of them to see a naked, intact

man undressing, where they were also simultaneously undressing. Since an email to their administration, 16 of them, plus their parents on this email, to which I kid you not, the university responded back with, and I have a screenshot of it. They said, if you feel uncomfortable, comfortable seeing male genitalia. Here are some counseling resources that you should seek in an attempt to re-educate yourself. Again, I could go on and on and on. It's your problem. It's your problem.

Right. That's what they told us. Okay. So it seems to me that like you're being gaslit, you and your teammates can all see a thing and you're being told not to acknowledge the thing you're looking at. And you have to get your head around the fact that you're going to compete. Pete with Leah Thomas. Was that, well, of course it was different.

How different was getting up to speed with that realization to the moment when you realized you would also be sharing a locker room with him? I'll be honest, going into the meet, I mentioned we found out who he was in November of 2021. That national championships wasn't until March of 2022. So we had about four or so months to kind of fester with this idea. what would this look like? And in those four months leading up to it, I think back. And honestly, I took the approach to this topic of almost thinking it was comical, really.

Like, I mean, I was- Farse. Right. Like, it felt like an S&L skit that we were living in. And so those were objectively meant to be funny. And so it just felt like this circus. And I remembered the moment distinctly where those feelings of intrigment, and I'm ashamed to say curious.

almost. I mean, we were curious, is he going to look as tall as he does in his Instagram pictures? Is he going to change in the locker room? Is he going to, we knew he was going to be competing with us, but is he going to sandbag it to make it look more competitive? I mean, we had so many questions, but I remember the moment distinctly where I was ashamed for ever even remotely laughing because it was prelims of the 500 freestyle that first day. And this is not an event that I do. and of course you swim prelims, you have to qualify top 16. You come back that evening for finals. That's where you'll achieve your overall national ranking.

So I'm watching prelims on the side of the pool. There was about eight heats or so in the morning. And so one of the girls from the previous heats, she was from Virginia Tech. Our teams were sat next to each other. She had just got out of the water, just raced. She's watching the final heat swim in the pool. Of course, after this heat finishes,

she'll know where she stands in the rankings, if she'll qualify for finals. She's a fifth year. She's from Hungary. I asked her, I'm like, why we got an extra year of eligibility because of COVID? And I said, you know,

why did you take your fifth year? You've got to be crazy to do that. And she said, well, I wanted to become an All-American. And so I'm standing there with her watching this. That's her name, Raika. Yeah. Watching this with her.

And I knew her. I didn't know her that well, though. And that final heat concludes, of course, where Leah Thomas is swimming. where Leah Thomas dominates. The results are posted and she realized she got 17th. And I will never forget

because she grabbed my hand, looked me in the eye, tears running down her face and she said, I just got beat by someone who didn't even have to try. And that's when it hit me. What was going on,

the severity of what we were dealing with. This wasn't anymore just like a South Park episode. Like this was reality. And it has real effects on real people, someone who stayed a whole extra year at college, I mean, she set this goal, and she didn't get to achieve that goal at the hands of the NCAA.

That's when those feelings shifted to utter heartbreak. And it felt like at that point we were just, we had to compete for second place, which again is a feeling I don't like. I don't like having to know. I've never been in a scenario where I knew I wasn't going to win. But this was that for me. And for a girl who fundamentally is defined by her extreme distaste for losing, to know that you can't win, to go into a race that you know you can't win.

I want to get to the thing, like when I started really paying attention to this is when you guys tied. And I do want to talk about that. But I also want to, I hate to make it about locker room talk, but I'm trying to put myself in the place of your dad, right? I'm trying to imagine being a dad who's got a kid, a young woman. And did you tell him about this? Did you spell out all of what happened? And how did this family of extraordinary athletes take it? How did they process it?

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Do what my mom did. Get yourself unlimited high-speed data for just $3499 a month at puretalk.com. You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. So, as I said, we didn't know that we were going to be changing in the same locker room. That was never something that we were forewarned about. There was no prior acknowledgement. There was no way that we could have made other arrangements for ourselves if this was something that we were uncomfortable with. Nothing like that. And so I'll kind of set the scene.

A swimming locker room is not a place of modesty. these suits that you put on, your racing suits, I mean, it takes at least 20 minutes to poke and prod yourself into these suits, 20 minutes of which you're fully exposed. They're paper thin, they're skin tight. It's a very intimate setting. And I think we can all agree, a locker room is not a comfortable place in general,

but growing up a swimmer, you almost become comfortable being vulnerable in that environment. And so, again, yeah, I think it's, important, you know, put your daughters in our shoes. We've got our back turns. Again, putting, I was actually changing out of my suit into my street clothes. And all of a sudden I hear a man's voice in that locker room. And of course, I turn around and I look up at this point because he's towering over everyone at six foot four. And there's a man who just starts taking off his women's swimsuit, totally undressing, totally exposed, fully intact. It's awkward. It was

It was uncomfortable. It was innate. It was inherent for every girl in that changing space to cover themselves, whether it was with their hands or their towels or their clothes and to get out of the locker room as quickly as they could. I mean, it felt like betrayal is how it felt. It felt like an utter violation. And it was traumatic, to be totally honest with you. And not even necessarily traumatic because of what we were forced to see or how we were forcibly exploited. It was traumatic for it. It was traumatic for. me to know just how easy it was for those people who created and enforced these policies to totally dismiss her rights to privacy without even a second thought, without even bare minimum forewarning us. How could they possibly at least let you know? Well, this is when I left a locker room immediately. And right before I called my dad, I went up to one of the officials on the pool deck and I said, what in the world? I know the guidelines that are allow him to compete with us. But what, what are the guidelines that allow him in the locker room with us? And so nonchalantly, he responds back with, oh, well, we actually got around this

by making the locker rooms unisex. And I said, unisex. So any man, any coach, any official, any parent, to be totally frank, any pervert who wanted to be in that locker room had full access, full reins, and we weren't even told about it. And so I then further pressed. I actually said, I appreciate your honesty. But do you realize that by admitting you had to change the rules, you're admitting that you know Thomas isn't a woman, right? Because if you wholeheartedly stood by that, you wouldn't have had to change the rules, but you did. So that right there is all the admittance that I need that you know this person is different than the rest of us. And that's when I called my dad. And I can tell you, my dad, um, you know, being a football player, he's a big guy.

I think he at least used to be. Now he's kind of just fat. But I told him, I'm like, Dad. Don't forget old. And old. Oh, definitely. He's getting up there with you guys. I'm kidding. I'm getting up there with us. I told him, I'm like, dad, there's a man in here. And he said, Riley, I'm coming down there and I'm going to handle this myself, to which I had to say, Dad, we already have one man in the locker room. We don't need to. I've got this. And you'll end up in jail.

And that's actually, like, he really would have. Sure. So I said, you know what? That was a big part of me, ultimately taking the stand that I did, is because I didn't want my dad to. Right. I'm so tempted to ask you to name names. I want to know the person who said, oh, it was, I mean, it's the nonchalance of it. It's like, oh, we just did a word.

work around. Now it's unisex, so don't worry. Everything is all good. And by the way, Leah Thomas did nothing to transition, at least that I've heard of. There was no surgery. We're talking about the full block and tackle, a full grown man who's six foot four, who's just wearing a woman's swimsuit. And then he's not. And then he's just going about his business. What was his demeanor? Was he aware of the discomfort? he was causing in your estimation? Entirely. I mean, he must have been.

It was blatantly obvious. When he would walk by, girls would look at each other and whisper and point. And not to be rude, not to be mean, not to anything like that, but it was that outlandish for us. So he must have known. And look, I have no animosity towards Leah Thomas. He really was following the rules. So that's when I, I mean, I realize it's the rules I have a problem with. But that doesn't mean I don't think he's a total narcissist.

It doesn't mean that I think he displayed an utter disregard for us as women and our privacy, our safety, our equal opportunities. I certainly think those things. So he was pretty standoffish. He didn't really talk to anyone. He talked to, believe it or not, there was one other athlete who was transitioning at this meet, but this is an athlete who is transitioning from female to now identifying as a man, who we were told we fully had to treat as a man.

So in that sensitivity training that I told you about, I didn't only have to learn she, her pronouns. I also had to learn he, him pronouns because we were told we had to treat Izzy, now going by the name of Isaac at Yale, which like, of course this summer is swimming at Yale. I thought the Ivy Leagues were supposed to be places of higher education, but they're proving that to be more and more false daily. They both rode on their arms and big black Sharpie, let trans kids play as if they both weren't playing in the category

that best suited them and their wants. For optics purposes here, it's the finals of the 100 freestyle on the last day of the meet. Top eight women in the entire country, okay? and you've got a six-foot-four man and a women's swimsuit with a bulge next to a woman wearing only a speedo, nothing covering her top. I'm sitting there watching this, you guys, and I'm like, it's me. I'm the crazy one.

It must be. This is the freaking twilight zone. So why was Izzy swimming with the women if she is wearing just a men's? bathing suit? Well, this is a rhetorical question because everyone knows the answer, and it's because Izzy, now going by the name of Isaac, would never and will never be able to compete at the same level against the men, even taking testosterone. Never.

Actually, this past season, she did compete with the men. Finished, dead last every single time. The one meet I watched of hers this year, the only male swimmer she beat was a man who had one arm. Yeah. If your initial reaction is to laugh, that's because it's like a Babylon B headline. Oh my God. Have they nailed it so many times?

I know it. This is the part where we learned that he had the arm surgically removed willfully because he just had always identified as a guy with one arm. That's a thing. It is a thing. It's got to be hard to swim with one arm. I mean, wouldn't she just be going in circles? I would imagine.

He said, don't. Yeah, transabled. But it is a thing. This analogy that you say, it sounds like lunacy. But we've even seen now where people who, we've seen this in the U.S. and we've seen it in Canada, where men who are 50 years old identify as 13, 14-year-old girls and are competing with 13-14-year-old girls because they identify as 13. They say they're trans age.

Yeah. Yeah. Chuck's heard me riff on this a bunch over the last four years. but you, more than any other guest on here, really typifies the kid in the emperor's new clothes. That famous Hans Christian Anderson, do you know the fable? Do you know the story? Right. I mean, you're it.

You're it, except it's not a naked king on a horse. It's a full-grown man with the entire accoutrements that God blessed him with, wrapped in skin-tight women's clothing with his phallus clearly visible. And the townspeople are all gathered and they're all looking and no one is saying anything. We're just waiting for the kid to go, hey there, quick point of order. Does that woman have a penis? And Riley's there going, she's a man, baby. She's a man, baby, yeah.

Yeah. But it's true. I mean, I waited for so long because I thought someone else would. I mean, those, again, the months between November and March, I figured someone would say something. There's no way that people will just remain quiet. I mean, there's people whose job it is to protect us. Surely they'll protect us, right? You know, what about our coaches?

What about people within the NCAA? What about maybe some other swimmer will say something? I naively thought that they would. When did you truly realize that no one was coming to speak on your behalf? You mentioned the scenario where we tied, which very briefly, we raced in the 200 freestyle. So, you know, got on the block, swam, dove off, swam eight laps of freestyle, touched the wall at the end. I look up at the scoreboard, and almost impossibly enough, we had gone the exact same time down to the hundredth of a second. That's statistically almost impossible.

Yeah, it doesn't happen. Very rare. I mean, you can't even get out your phone and try and stop a stopwatch in less than a tenth of a second. You can't do it. And we went the exact same time down to the 100th. And that's incredibly embarrassing for a six-foot-four man. But nonetheless, we get out of the water, go behind the awards podium where the NCAA official looks at both Thomas and myself, again, him towering over me. And this official says, great job, you too.

But you tied. And we only have one trophy. So that trophy goes to Leah. Sorry, Riley, you don't get one. And I remember just, I mean, my heart rate was still high. Having just competed, my like adrenaline was still pumping. And so the first thing that I thought ended up being the first thing that I said. And the first thought that I had was, isn't this everything that Title IX was passed to prevent from happening?

What do you mean you're going to give the trophy to the main? and the women's 200 free. He tried to come up with a couple different excuses. The first thing he said was, well, we're just doing this in chronological order. I said, do you mean alphabetical? Because G comes before T. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're being chronological about.

We tied. And that's when he admitted, and understand he said this with a sad face. His voice sounded sad. I could tell he didn't even believe what he was about to say, but he looked at me and he said, Riley, I'm so sorry, but we have been advised as an organization that when photos are being taken, it's crucial that the trophy's in Leah's hands. That's the moment when we knew, like I said, we knew all season the unfair competition was wrong.

We knew the locker room, the silencing. We knew those things were wrong. But it wasn't until this official reduced everything that we had worked our entire lives for down to, a photo op to validate the feelings and the identity of a man at the expense of our own. That's when I was no longer willing to wait for someone else. And I, again, a vivid memory where I'm standing on that podium, holding this trophy, I know I have to give back, sharing my placement with a guy towering over me, and it hit me, this realization of how in the world could we, as women, as female athletes expect someone to stand up for us. If we aren't even willing to stand up for ourselves,

this has to come from us. So it was right then and there, I decided I would say something, and the next day, I did. Here's what you wrote. Page 63, chapters called Go Time. In those brief moments, I waited for someone to stick up for us, a coach, a parent, someone within the NCAA, or someone with political influence,

and power. I thought surely someone who was supposed to be protecting us would, well, protect us. But then it hit me. We were applauding our own erasure, our own demolition. How could we expect someone else to stand up for us if we weren't willing to stand up for ourselves? This had to come from us as female athletes, from us as women. This was the moment when I decided I was no longer willing to cower and lie. I felt overwhelmed by personal responsibility and conviction that I had ignored for too long. I did not know what I was going to do, but I knew I would never again wait for someone else to call out an injustice on my behalf. This really isn't about swimming. It's not even about trans rights. It is about, God, I hate to say this. Chuck, forgive me.

me. We're not supposed to be political, but you know what? This is about good Germans. This is about what happened 80 years ago when millions of decent people stood by and watched something happen that was so clearly and presently an affront to common sense. It doesn't mean you're not a decent person to want to help Leah, that doesn't mean you can't have sympathy and empathy. It's not that binary, but we once again find ourselves in a moment where your choice, you had to accept it with a smile and with enthusiasm, and if there was a problem, you had to get your own head fixed. And if that doesn't make people angry, then we've lost our capacity for righteous indignation. No, I totally agree. I think.

the premise of this debate is that we're denying, well, one, we're denying biblical truth, but two, we're denying objective truth, biological reality, the most basic of truths at that man and woman. Hate to break it to both of you, and every single person who's listening, every single person on this planet, we're all here from man and woman, and we're being asked to deny that. That's as if we're being asked to deny that that the sky is blue. Or in the case of kind of what you're referring to, Mike, from that same perspective, it's as if we're being told to say two plus two is five. It's why I started where I started, Riley. We're not being asked to deny it. We're being compelled to accept it, right? Enthusiously. That's right. It's not about,

I compete because I'm dying to win. It's, I compete because I hate to lose. It's different. And, you know, it's kind of like, you remember Chuck years ago, I think it was the poor Richard's almanac. Somebody asked me to fill in a sentence, right? America's greatest strength is our capacity for blank, and our greatest weakness is a tendency to blank. And I said, I think our greatest strength is our capacity for tolerance. And our greatest weakness is our tendency to accept. So somewhere in all of this, we want to tolerate, we want to be open to people who are on a different path. We don't want to judge the world by our own convictions, but to be forced to accept that different path at the point of a sword or at the threat of some

sort of sanction, that's different. And I guess it goes back to Jordan Peterson, right? I mean, I'm sure you've talked to him about all of this. I'm sure you found confidence out there. Is there a lot of support right now for what you're doing? A hundred and ten percent there is, which is something I was really nervous about. I knew how my teammates felt. I knew how, you know, my family felt the people around me who were involved, involved. They saw the injustice with their own eyes, and they felt the exact same way I did. But I was led to believe by those outside sources, people telling us again how we would ruin our lives if we spoke out about this. I thought I was going to be ostracized.

And I'm not here to say that it's been all rainbows and butterflies, because that's not the case. But what I will say is the support is tenfold anything negative. I haven't lost opportunities. I haven't lost, I was in dental school after college working to be a dentist, an endodontist, actually, which is someone who does root canals, weirdly enough. And when I was kind of thrust into this position and had to ultimately decide, I can't dedicate my time to fighting this if I'm in dental school, what do I do? So I called the dental school, and I told them, look, something personal has come up in my

life, trying to be very vague. I didn't want this to ruin my chances of eventually going back to dental school. And they said, Riley, we know who you are. we know what you do and we love what you do they said dennis are a dime a dozen but what you're fighting for what you're advocating for will have an impact far beyond it will leave a legacy far greater than any dennis has left and so riley you fight that fight and we will be here waiting for you if you choose to come back that's not what they told me it was going to happen um they told me i was immediately going to be kicked out and denounced. I haven't lost any friends. It's not because

I don't have friends who, I only have friends who agree with me. No, I have tons of friends who don't agree with me, but they know me. They know my heart. They know the stance that I've taken, where I'm coming from. So all of that to say, I think there's a lot of external fear put on us, but I think we place a lot of internal fear on ourselves. And once I could overcome that, There has been no looking back for me. Shameless plug. Long before she was Peggy Roe, my mom was Peggy Noble, daughter of Carl and Thelma Noble.

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noblespirates.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-Spirits.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. Did the manipulation ever get to a point where rather than threatening you guys with the consequences of not playing ball, that they appealed to your empathy for Leah Thomas? In other words, you know, if you don't accept Leah for Leah, you know, something bad might happen to Leah. She might do something to herself. Did it get that far? They went as far to say, if you do speak out about this and any harm, whatsoever comes towards Thomas's way, whether that's physical harm, whether that's emotional

harm, whether that's self-inflicted for that matter. They said, then understand you are solely responsible. And that would make you responsible for a potential death. And that would make you a murderer. And you don't want to be a murderer. Do you know? So I suggest you be kind and I suggest you be inclusive. Let that really sink in. They told us. They told us, we would have have blood on our hands if we spoke out about this. NCAA. And specific universities. But it's effective.

That's why there's been so few people in my same position who are willing to take a stand. It's not because they agree with this. That would be a silly assumption. It's because they're terrified. And understandably so. I'm not here to fault anyone else who hasn't spoken out. Because, again, I know the threats. I know the risk.

I know what they tell us. It's in academia. It's in corporate America. it's virtually in every realm. This level of coercion, I think, is the best way to put it. Emotional blackmail is what it is. Yeah. Were there other people on your team who were encouraging or discouraging you at the time from taking a stand?

What kind of support did you have in those early moments when the temptation to be a silent townsperson in front of the naked king or a good German 80 years ago when that was really, really rooted. Where were your teammates? So I have, my team consisted of 40 girls. It was a pretty big team. I was team captain of this team. And so I made sure, as soon as we found out about Leah Thomas,

I made sure to take the initiative in having a team meeting, being able to all talk about this openly. I didn't force my opinions or views on anyone. just an open forum where we could talk without fear of backlash or anything like that. And what I found in doing that is of the 40 girls on my team, 38 of them felt the exact same way. The other two are dating each other, which whatever. But 38 of them felt the exact same way. And that was the difference in our team and a lot of other teams where they didn't have that open discussion.

So I'm grateful that we did. and I had a phenomenal coach. My coach is incredibly supportive. I had a phenomenal athletic director who was incredibly supportive. Most of the silencing that we face came from the academic, the academia side of our university. But the athletic department, I will say, they were pretty good. And I remember when I spoke out about this, when I had finally, you know, publicly put my name in my face to saying this is wrong and it's unfair and it's harmful, I called my athletic director right before. He's a wonderful man. He's been at University of Kentucky for over 20 years. He truly leads by example. He's a strong Christian man. We had a great relationship. And I was so scared that if I spoke

out, I would be painting the university in a bad light. And I didn't want to do that. I loved my time at University of Kentucky. And so I called him. And I said, Mitch, this is what has happened. This is how I feel. How do you feel if I take a stand? And he said, Riley, I love you. I support you. I'll never forget he said say true to your conviction, speak your heart, and don't worry about painting this university in a bad light because we're behind you, which I needed to hear that more than I think he could ever know. I will say I had a coach, Mitch Barnhart. The best. The best. I did have a coach during all of this who began to transition, which was just another added layer of pressure. Some of the stories about her and

and the actions that she took are reprehensible. And definitely, again, just another added layer of pressure to stay quiet. But I didn't let it deter me too much. Do you want to draw a line or make a distinction between the decision of a grown person to embark on this transition versus the competitive conversation we've been having as a result? of a transition. A hundred, a hundred percent. Look, the beauty of America is that we have the freedoms that we do. I'm not trying to police what someone does in their free time or behind closed doors, but what I am saying is, one, it shouldn't cost me my taxpayer dollars, two, it shouldn't infringe on my rights, our rights endowed by our creator and enforced by our constitution. And

from the competitive, the sporting aspect, our rights were being infringed. fringed upon our rights to privacy, our rights to equal opportunity, and contact, physical contact sports where you're throwing something at one another, colliding into one another, your rights to safety are being impacted. So, yes, I'm not here to say that I'm against trans people. I don't care what you do. As a Christian, I don't necessarily support it. I believe God made each and every single person on this planet perfect and intentionally in his image. And I think if you alter that, you are attempting to play God, which has never gone well for anyone. So I'm not going to say I support it. But again, that's the beauty of America. I'm not going to judge someone. I think it's our jobs as Christians

to lead with grace, but land with truth. Certainly a balance I try to have in my own life. You know, you can lead a horse to the trough, but you can't make them drink. And so as a Christian, I think that's our job on this planet is to spread his word, his message, his gospel. And he's very clear in saying he created male and female, again, perfect in his image. What happened in San Francisco? Yeah, San Francisco. The belly of the beast, huh? I mean, since you're coming back here to tempt fate and swim to Alcatraz

against the current and with the sharks, and since the answer to that question was really the first time I think I saw you on national TV in what appeared to be a hostage situation. I am curious to hear it in your own words. I would rather swim with the sharks in Alcatraz than deal with that again. It was truly the first time I ever feared for my, I mean, the only time I've ever feared for my life.

I was in San Francisco. I was at San Francisco State University. One of the university student-led chapters as a turning point group had asked me to come and speak to a few of their students. I figured why not. I knew, at least I thought I knew what I was getting myself into. I knew San Francisco wasn't as warm and fuzzy to me as my home state of Tennessee is. So I was aware of that.

I still had no problem going, not because I was looking for controversy or hostility or anything like that, but it was a different audience for me, which I was excited about. I was wrong in assuming that students and community members would come with an open mind and the willingness to have their hard softened because they did not. They came with pitchforks and fire. Upon delivering my talk, honestly similar to what we've talked on this podcast about protesters, they rush into the back of the room, hundreds of them. They turn out the lights. They rush to the front. They ambush me. I mean, I'm talking, I'm being pushed, I'm being shoved, I'm being punched in the face by these men who are wearing dresses, which fortunately for me, their punches really don't

hurt that bad. But anyways, these protesters, they ended up holding me for ransom for four, five hours throughout the middle of the night, demanding that if I wanted to make it home to see my family safely again, I had to pay the money. Now you might be wondering, okay, well, where are the police? Guys, it's San Francisco. The police were being held for ransom with me. I'm looking at the officers, and I'm like, pretty sure we're being held against our will, pretty sure we call that kidnapping. Isn't there something you can do? To which they said, no, Riley. there's not. There's nothing we can do. We're not allowed to do anything because we're not allowed to be seen as anything other than an ally to this community or else we'll lose our jobs.

Is that not a gun on your hip? Are they not armed? That's what I told them. Well, that's what I said is. I'm not saying you should use it, but I'm pretty sure you have a gun. They were terrified. They seemed more frazzled than I did, to be totally honest with you. And keep in mind, the people that they were on the side of choosing to side with are the same people. The same people, on the other side of that door that became our prison for hours, saying that these officers were racist pigs for protecting a white girl like me. They yelled heinous, obscene, profane things for hours at both myself and the officers. The dean of students ends up showing up. Again, the middle of the night, it's like midnight, and tries negotiating with the students how much I owe each of them to be able to leave,

which the price they agreed upon was $10 each, which makes me mad. because I think I'm worth more than $10. 10 bucks. Come on, man. I know, you can't even get me out of bed for 10 bucks. Anyways, three McChicons, or two McChviggins in a McDowell, maybe. But 10 bucks, I don't know. Eventually, we were able to get out, really to no prevail of the police department.

The city of San Francisco Police Department showed up. I was dealing with campus police for a while, but the city of San Francisco Police Department showed up. We were able to leave. But the next day, The vice president of student affairs at the university, Dr. Jamila Moore, she said on a university-wide email, you know, to professors, to staff, to students. And she said in this email, we are so proud of our brave students for handling Riley Gaines in the manner that they did. We know how deeply traumatic her presence is on this campus. And so here are some counseling resources for you guys. Take the day off of school. Just know that we see you. We hear you. We love you. And we stand with you. nowhere in this email did it condemn violence, violence against women for that matter. Nowhere in this email did it say, we uphold our First Amendment rights and the freedom of speech.

No, none of that. Yeah, I would encourage those of you listening who are trying to get a mental picture of this to go on YouTube and Google the footage. It's out there. It's a mob. It's a angry mob of people. You can see the terror on Riley's face and you can see the absolute vitriol in the faces of those who would have her head on a pike. It's an amazing thing to see and it's a shocking, shocking amount of anti-coverage of that whole thing. And the wild thing to me is the police department got back with me months, actually really recently.

So, I mean, almost a year after the incident. and they said that there was no evidence anywhere to charge anyone. They couldn't charge the individual students. They couldn't charge the university. They couldn't hold themselves accountable for failing at their most basic duty in ensuring our safety, my safety. They said there's no evidence anywhere, despite what a quick Google search would show them.

There's plenty of audio, video, eyewitness, testimony. Have you considered, not for your own gain, but just given the cause with which you're now, associated and the publicity that you're going to need, frankly. I mean, this is a battle of ideas and PR, and I assume that's why you wrote the book, and I assume that's why you're making the rounds, you know, and you're doing a great job, in my view, but have you considered suing them? Have you considered getting, I mean, really, the city, the university, all of it.

I think it was strategic on their part. I was working with the police department for a while to figure out what this look like, And they came back after the statutes of limitations have ran out. So there's not a lot of options to sue. I will say I have successfully sued the University of New Mexico, their police department, for charging a similar situation. I spoke at UNM. Their police department charged me a $10,000 security fee to keep me safe. Yet the next week when a drag queen came to campus, they got charged nothing.

which is merely viewpoint discrimination and unconstitutional. So we're able to sue and win there. I'm in the process now of suing the NCAA, which has been a mighty feat. Of course, the NCAA has deep pockets, but it's myself and 16 other athletes have now signed on to this lawsuit. It's in the beginning stages. We're excited.

We're hopeful because, again, the NCAA, similar to the police department at SFSU, they failed at their most basic duties. So, and violated federal law. I'm not someone who, it sounds like it, but I'm not someone who's overly sue happy. I wish we didn't have to do these things. But it's what the other side does so well. They threaten lawsuits.

And that's why we're here because large organizations, large governing bodies, the IOC, what have you. They're fearful of being sued. And so I think it's due time that we show them, well, we'll sue you too if that's what it takes to be, worthy of being called champions. We've got to land the plane here. So let me just kind of wrap it up with, what would you say to men? Because I hear a lot that, you know, this whole thing, as crazy as it sounds, I hear a lot of people saying, where are the feminists?

Where are the women who can just come together and shut this thing down hard? Like, why hasn't that happened? So I guess it's a two-part question. Why hasn't that happened? And what should men do who feel sometimes relegated just to watch because we don't get a say in it? Right? So, I mean, make sense out of that for me. No, I totally know where you're coming from.

To answer your first question of where are the feminists, don't even get me started on this question. We have people like Billy Jean King, right? I mean, this is who we have to accredit Title IX, too. She played in the Battle of the Sexes, and she won, and it was this huge feat for not only women in sports, but women as a whole, women in the working field. I mean, it propagated women. Billy Jean King is now advocating for male inclusion

in women's sports and women's spaces. Megan Rapino, for example. This is a woman who says her greatest achievement of her entire career, was fighting for equal pay. She's now actively and openly, again, fighting for male inclusion in women's sports. You look at someone like Don Staley, even. This is the University of South Carolina basketball coach who just led her team to a national championship. I mean, her record the past three years at USC is 109 and 3.

I mean, it's unheard of. It's unprecedented. So clearly she's a phenomenal coach, but you can be two things at once. You can be a remarkable player, a remarkable coach, and you can be a sellout. And that's what all of these women have proven themselves to be. People who claim to champion women. Even recently when I was testifying, I've testified before Congress in the Senate many times, but most recently, I sat next to a woman.

She was the president of the National Women's Law Center. And in her opening testimony, she said that women should just learn how to lose more gracefully to men. even now the national organization of women who, I mean, the leading feminist group, they released an article maybe two weeks ago that said that I was a white supremacist patriarchist. I don't even know what that really means. It's insane what these feminist groups are doing. They're leading the charge in dismantling our rights and sex-based protections. But I think we ultimately have the feminist movement to blame

for the way that we have emasculated men. If you look at, you know, these different waves of feminism, you look at the sexual reproductions, sexual liberation, these fights that feminists have undertaken. For so long, we told men, no uterus, no opinion. You don't get to give an opinion on an issue that affects women. And so I think they've listened and said, okay, this is your battle. You guys are being adversely affected by this.

Now you handle it. But I will be the first person to say, first of all, it's not only affecting women, this affects everyone. But secondly, we need men. We need strong men. I think our nation is in decline for a couple reasons, one of which because we live in a godless society, but two, because we are governed by morally bankrupt, weak need, spineless cowards.

And again, virtually every realm, academia, corporate America, our media, our government, even seemingly our spiritual leaders won't get involved in anything that has been deemed controversial by our media or society. But there's a saying, and it's proven itself to be true, time and time again, and it's that hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times. There's no doubt in my mind which part of the process we're in now where weak men have created hard times. I think the last time we had a society full of strong men was in the 1940s. During World War II, you think about it.

These were men who were willing to and actively lying about their age, saying they were older than what they really were so they could enlist and fight for this country. And now, what, 80-ish years later, you have men actively lying about their sex, saying that there's something that they're not in order to get into women's sports or women's prisons or women's locker rooms or women's bathrooms

or women's dorm rooms or sororities or what have you. It's a telltale sign. And if you push back, what is it now? It's not masculinity. It's toxic masculinity. Right. And look, not to make it incredibly personal, but even you didn't want your dad to come down and straighten that out.

That I completely get. But I wonder, to your point, if it's 1940 or it's 1950 and the call goes out and there's a full-grown man in my daughter's locker room, my daughter's not going to dissuade me from coming down there, and neither is my wife, and neither is the sheriff. I'm going. Exactly.

I'm going. And that's what we need to see. We need to see more parents willing to defend their kids, to defend their daughters, teach their sons how to be strong men. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You're a very dangerous guest to have on this podcast, Riley. You're a very, very dangerous guest. I'm speaking only for me.

You're the kind of guest that can cause enormous problems for me, but I am such a fan of the book you've written and the stand you've taken. Look, I know how hard it is. We might not agree on every single point, but, man, I know how hard it is to be the first one to raise your hand and say, hey, party foul, flag on the play. That's a penis. I think you're the problematic one, Mike.

Maybe I am. I don't know. I'm older than I've ever been, as you so generously pointed out, and I'm just looking around and I am, you know, I mean, I've got this movie coming out. By the time this airs, it'll probably be out. You'll like it. It's called Something to Stand for. And it happened because I read this poll that said in 1998, 71% of Americans

describe themselves as extremely patriotic. and today that number is more like 38%. And, you know, the movie is not about why that's happening. I've got opinions, obviously, but I didn't make it to be political. I made it because I have more friends on the left than I do on the right. I have a lot of friends in all kinds of liberal causes. And my friends in those spaces, they don't describe themselves as Democrats or liberals, first and foremost.

They describe themselves as Americans, as do my friends on the right. And I worry that, my God, the labels, the labels are out, and everybody's in their own little thing. You know what? I get it. 38% patriotism. If you lose faith in virtually every institution that you've come to rely on, that's going to leave a mark. You know, and it's okay to be critical. In fact, it's critical to be critical and skeptical.

But, you know, there's still a lot to be proud of. Still a lot to celebrate. Still a lot to be grateful for. No doubt. Yeah. I like the fact that you see it that way. I'm excited for your film. Yeah, I can't wait.

I'm going to send her a copy to get a quote. But, Riley, I wanted to say to you that this issue in general, I think that Tyrus Murdoch said it, best when he said that when you have all these men trying to compete in women's sports, what they're really doing is putting on woman face. They're pretending to be woman. He compared it to blackface, which he can do. And I think that's really it. And I love the fact that you are on that wall fighting this battle because it needs to be fought and you're the perfect person to do it. And to paraphrase Jack Nicholson and a few good men, we need you on that wall. So please don't ever stop. No way. No way. We haven't won yet. Not as much as we hate losing. And we are won. So we are winning. I know if we kept going long enough, we'd get the title for this episode. We love winning, but not as much as we hate losing.

Boom. Boom. Does that mean I'm more creative than you guys? I don't know. Totally. And I know if we let her talk long enough, we'd find something we have to edit out. And there it is. No, you guys rock. I'm very appreciative. Like I said, big fan. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for having me on. I know that I know that I'm. I'm seemingly, like you said, a problematic, controversial person. But to be able to speak to this past the headlines that people see means a whole lot to me. So thank you. Well, it's only everything.

So I'll be thinking of you tomorrow around two in the afternoon as I'm getting a crown replaced and probably a root canal in the career you could have had. And I will say to myself, gosh, you know, I wish Riley were here so we could keep on talking as I'd turn my head and spit every five minutes. Exactly. And then remember what I'm doing now is far more painful than that root canal. What can people do, if anything? Independent Women's Forum, swimming with the sharks. Any shameless plug-re? Well, feel free to check out my book. Again, I know we talked for a while, but it's a much more in-depth account to what we experienced, how we got here, what's going on, the trajectory of where we're going, more in-depth on the silencing stuff, the locker room stuff. and what we can do as everyday people.

Is it officially out already? It is. Yes, it is. Is it a bestseller yet? It came out yesterday. So by the Times this airs, it'll be a bestseller. Look, I hope it goes to number one. Folks, you can make that happen.

It's called Swimming Against the Current, fighting for common sense in a world that's lost his mind by the one and only Riley Gaines. Get it wherever you read books. Riley, I owe you one. Anything I can do to help down the road. give Chuck a call. You got it. I'll see you July 12th.

Yeah, don't hang up. We've got to make sure this uploads. But July 12th, you, Alcatraz, the Sharks. Be there. Good luck. If you're done, please subscribe. Leave some stars ideally five. Five lousy little stars. When you manage procurement for money, multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even

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