The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 452: Payton McNabb—Enough of This Crap!

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Mike sits down with former high school volleyballer Payton McNabb, who was knocked unconscious by a spike to the face, delivered by a male competing on the girls' team, and woke up in the middle of a national controversy. What followed wasn't just a concussion and long-term neurological damage. It was a brutal, firsthand lesson in biology, politics, and the high cost of pretending that reality is up for debate.  

Hey guys, it's the way I heard it. I'm Mike Rowe, and this episode is called Peyton McNabb. Enough of this crap. And to be perfectly clear right out of the gate, Chuck, I'm not quoting our guest. I am merely projecting my frustration onto her situation and speaking on what I think could well be the behalf of many, many other Americans who have had it up to here with this nonsense. Well, certainly this American, and I've had it as well. The point is the crap to which you refer is men and boys playing women's and girls' sports. No thank you. Enough. Actually, one small tweak to that. What I've had it with is the gingerness and the tiptoeing. And I'm afraid and hopeful, if I'm being honest, that we are going to live long enough

to look back and see what a colossal failing this has been on the part of our country and on the part of decent, rational, compassionate, kind-hearted people who just acquiesced and became the townspeople in the emperor's new clothes

and just sat there and watched while this dialogue spun out of control and where otherwise reasonable people actually began to weigh in around a science-based conversation and just twisted themselves into knots trying to make it plausible that men and women should compete against one another in sports.

What a madness, the madness of crowds, That's how this is going to be remembered, I think. And, man, just listening to Peyton tell her story and watching the video of her getting creamed in the face by a volleyball. She was really hurt. She was really hurt. Could have killed her. Yeah.

If you don't know what we're talking about, you're about to hear it from the horse's mouth, as it were. Peyton McNabb is a young woman who has been thrust into a spotlight. originally, I think, taken up by Riley Gaines, who's been a guest on this podcast. She was the most outspoken swimmer, who's just said enough already with Will Thomas. Listen to me. I can't even help myself. The biological male, I was about to say.

That's what I mean, man. That's what I mean. We've all been so weird. Like almost, we were under a spell, you know? to the point where we couldn't say male and female anymore. We started to say a biological male. What in the world? How do we get this behind us once and for all?

I hope conversations like this will help. I hope so too. And listen, she states her case very eloquently and she seems like she has a very good heart. She doesn't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but she's not going to lie in order to do that. And I feel that's what a lot of people have been asked to do. is to perpetuate a lie for the sake of not hurting other people's feelings. And she lays it out there. She does. But the trail has been blazed. I want to just give a shout out to the Independent Women's Forum, who has done great work around this and a lot of other causes. My partner, Mary Sullivan, who is a member of that forum,

Riley Gaines, who has really stepped into a really important role, I think. It'll be interesting to see where she takes. her career now, and Payton McNabb and lots of other girls who had the courage to step up and tell their story in a really unfriendly, very threatening environment. And yeah, sorry if my slip is showing a bit more than normal, but if I sound frustrated, it's really because I'm frustrated with myself. I never really thought that any of this made a lick of sense. but like a lot of other people, I kind of kept my mouth shut for a while

and watched things play out. But we can't do that anymore. There is no sensible reason why boys and men should be allowed to compete with girls and women, period. Hard stop. The end. Except it's the beginning.

Enough of this crap with Peyton McNabb. You're going to love her, and you're going to meet her right after. this. Do do do do do do do. Dumb. I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much important meat was being deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent meat company that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises to deliver

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don't take a chance on a foreign ranch get good ranchers now. Hey-ha. Hi, Peyton. Hi. Thank you for doing this. Of course. For coming out here to Big Bad California.

Have you been here before? No. First, Tom. Yeah? What do you think? I don't know how people live here. What have you seen so far? Did you land today or did you get here yesterday?

I just landed right before I got here. So I didn't really get to see much. But it's nice. It's pretty. It's pretty. Weather's nice? Weather's nice. But it's not North Carolina, isn't it?

No. That's home? Mm-hmm. What town? Murphy. Where's Murphy? It's like all the way west. It's on the Georgia.

Virginia and Tennessee border. Wow. Were you guys impacted by Helene? It actually just missed us. It hit my college town over. I went to Western Carolina and it hit Asheville pretty bad. So like that area, it missed us and then it hit parts of East Tennessee. Are you friendly with people who were just really seriously impacted by that thing? Yeah. I've just asking because I've been meaning to get there for the last year and I just saw something on YouTube the other day. There's a video. It's called It's Still in Ruins. And I think it's really important.

It's just a guy with the camera just going through some of those little towns. I don't think people understand how bad it was. Yeah, people are still, like, living campers on the south of the road. It's crazy. And it's been, like, a while. So it's really sad.

Yeah. The Amish from, like, Pennsylvania, I think. A lot of them came down and rebuilt a bunch of little houses, which was really nice. helpful. I'm just so blown away by the generosity of people. There are so many people who have left their jobs and literally moved to some of these areas and they've just been volunteering every single day, just getting people, everything from diapers to formula to food. I mean, it's just a heck of a thing. Yeah, it's been awesome to see it. The whole community just came together because

the government didn't really help during this time. No one was really talking about it. And I think everyone kind of just saw that. And they really came together from all over. Like, we had people, my cousins from Arkansas coming in and bringing stuff and people from all over, just making the trips. Well, speaking of talking about stuff that nobody wanted to talk about for a long time, you've been awfully chatty out in the world there, haven't you? I have.

Yeah. I saw you in, was Austin? What was it like two or three months ago? I think it was a couple weeks ago. Oh, was it really? Yeah. I'm under a lot of pressure paid. No, it's okay.

I think it was a few weeks ago. I think it might have been a month. Why were you there? You were there with your friend, Amy, was there? Yeah, we were there speaking on this bill that we were trying to get past in Texas, the Women's Bill of Rights. And it just defines woman and gets that taken care of. We have a lot of bills that Independent Women's Forum is,

and independent women just in general, because they have the three different things. They're working really hard to get all these state legislation passed all over the place. So we went and spoke with Texas values and had a whole press conference and everything. What was that like? I mean, that must have been, was that the first time you've been in a state capital talking about an issue? issue that matters a lot to you? So that week I was also in Michigan doing the same thing and I've been to quite a few states doing all this or testifying for state bills. So I've done quite a bit of that.

I've done a couple in North Carolina and that's when the whole thing started. The first time I ever did it was at the legislature or the North Carolina General Assembly. And that was the first time ever said anything. So it really just started from there. That's when I met Raleigh. You met Raleigh Gaines? At the General Assembly. Nice. This was like right after I turned 18 and my parents said I can do, like I can make that decision if I want to say anything or not. And I didn't think it was going to be at the General Assembly, but I agreed and then it all just exploded from there. Funny how things happen. Things happen fast. Very fast. I mean, I hate to ask you to tell the story. again, but I don't know how many of my listeners really understand exactly what happened.

I know I was sitting at home when I saw the footage of that volleyball game, and I just, I mean, it was so many different feelings at the same time. I was surprised. I was worried for you. I didn't know who you were, but I just thought, that just doesn't look good at all. And then I was angry, you know? And then I was just kind of worried about the whole country. and how we had seemingly come to this place where we were just so at odds over something that seemed so simple. So in your own words, what happened and how did you wind up becoming an advocate? Yeah.

So my senior year of high school, this happened like the first week. So September 1st, 2022, I... Went into this volleyball game. So we've been playing against this guy for four years. It was legal in North Carolina, so there was nothing we could do about it. So this is a guy, and he's playing for what team? Highlands High School. Highlands High School.

Yeah, it's another high school in North Carolina. Right. And, I mean, I don't want to say I got used to it because that wasn't really it. So we had COVID hit our freshman year, and then that kind of messed up my first half of high school. So everything was kind of weird anyway. We didn't really know it was rumored, and he didn't hit puberty until, like, junior year, I would say. So then it was really, like, it was beyond noticeable at this point. And at first they were kind of like, they kept him as a libero and hit him in the back, so it really wasn't that.

What's that mean? Big of a deal. So he only played back row. He was like, like, a lot of times when there's a hitter or something who can't really play back row, the Libero will go in for them. And that's the one that has like the different shirt on. Oh, okay. Yeah.

So he was that for the first couple of years. And then he started hitting and it was like very obvious that that was a guy. And, you know, my coaches did not agree or administration did not agree with it whatsoever. We had to practice differently in order to prepare just for this guy. Like their team wasn't that good. he was the main reason why they're winning. And I was one of the captains on the team, so being a senior and a captain,

me and the other captain tried to be as motivating and as we possibly could be in positive, tried to just get them to get through it because we had a really young team that year and they were scared to play him. So our coaches said, just get a hand on the ball. We weren't even worrying about returning it at this point.

wanted us to touch it. And he spikes the ball and it hits me right in the face. It knocks me unconscious for 30-ish seconds. My body's in a fencing position, which happens a lot. It's like how your body reacts to a brain injury. It happens like in football and stuff like that. And everyone swarmed me. The whole gym went completely silent. Thank the Lord. That was the only game my parents to not go to. Oh, boy. Because they, I don't know how they would have reacted with that. The other team's laughing.

I'm unconscious. My team's like on the verge of tears. They're laughing. Yeah. And I didn't know all this until after, but my team is like traumatized about what just happened. And the trainer wakes me up. He asked me what just happened to me.

And I said, well, the boy on y'all's team just knocked me out. like that's what just happened. This is the trainer on the other team. Yeah. Why is he talking to you? Why is it the trainer on your team? Because it was at their gym. So we didn't have our trainer there.

Oh. Yeah. It's an away game. Yeah, it was an away game. So after I said that, he just like went completely blank. And then he rushed me off the court. He did one little finger test on me and said I was all good. It can go back into play.

Come on. After being unconscious on the floor. Like they knew. With the finger test. So he holds up the finger and moves it. And he's looking at your eyes following it. Yeah. And based on that expert medical diagnosis, he determined you were good to go.

Yeah. What did you do? I obviously did not go back in. My coaches were like absolutely not. And I stayed out and my adrenaline was just pumping. And the freshman said her had to go in and finish the game for me. They, of course, did not take him out. And she's on the verge of tears because she just saw what happened to me.

And now she has to go in and play that exact position. So it was just horrible. And then after I went home, my parents met me, met the bus halfway, and I just continued to get worse. The North Carolina concussion protocol says that I had to stay home for a few days and see if it got better or worse before going to the doctor. I've read this. You wear sunglasses and sleep as much as you want.

But why would they do that? Why wouldn't they just want to see you straight away? I don't know. But my dad's like, okay, because he's also a paramedic. And so he's trying to do as much as he can. So I'm sleeping a lot. I'm wearing sunglasses inside and out. And it just continues to get worse.

So I go to my primary doctor, and she immediately refers me to a neurologist who told me that I had a brain bleed, a concussion, and permanent whiplash. Permanent whiplash. Yeah. I mean, I think I know what that means, but I, so it means your neck hurts to this day? Yeah, I had to go, and my body was just like always out of line

and my neck would get stiff and it wouldn't turn all the way and just stuff like that. I had to go to the chiropractor weekly for like a couple years, maybe a full year, and then a little bit after. And that helped a lot.

So that's helped with it, but yeah. And I never played volleyball again. Then my doctors told me not to ever play sports again. But this was my senior year, and I was hoping I was going to play college softball. Right. You weren't just, I mean, you were jock, basically. Like, you played whatever, right?

Yeah, I played every sport, and that I could. And that's not uncommon from the school, like the place where I'm from, because, like, the same girls were on every team. We had to play for there to be a team. So, like, I was committed to playing. I did not want to give that all up just because of what happened. And my parents, we had a really hard time navigating that. I come from, like, a really unique place.

It's very community family-based, like, very family involved in the school and stuff like that. Murphy. Yes. How many people in the town? I don't know how many are in the town, but my graduating class was 30. Public school. Yeah. My dad was a principal.

Everybody knows. Yeah. Everybody knows everybody. Everybody and everything. So, yeah, my cousin was my basketball coach, and that was what was coming up next. So he really watched me. I wanted to play, so they kind of used that as, like, physical therapy for me. I had to practice to the side by myself, or he would have to tell them, like, they can guard me,

but just can't touch me. Like, I could only do so much, and I tried to just ease my way back into it. I think that helped a lot with my mobility and stuff. Sure. Sure. Do do do do do do do do do dumb. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of AI hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth?

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netsuite.com slash mike. That's netsuite.com. I've got some more questions about the game itself. Chuck, do you have the video by any chance? Sure. If you can find that. By the way, the independent women's forum has an amazing, it's about 15 minutes long, I think. We're not going to watch the whole thing. I just want people to see. see the moment you've just described so they can understand what it is if you missed it. Did you sit and watch the rest of the game? Mm-hmm. Who won?

They did. Remember the score? No. What do you remember about, I just can't, I'm just trying to imagine, like, there's a referee, right? Mm-hmm. One of the referees ended up stepping down because of what happened. he didn't want to be a part of that. Good for him.

You have a young girl who's unconscious. You have a team of people laughing. Never mind all of the politics surrounding the guy. But I mean, the whole thing just seems so impossibly impossible. Yeah. I mean, did you meet the guy? Did he talk to you, apologize? No, he never apologized.

after I spoke out for the first time, he texted me on Instagram and said that. Basically, like, I was obsessed with the situation. He's living rent-free in my head and stuff like that. The guy texts you. Yeah. And said that. Oh, my God. Yeah, I didn't respond.

I probably should have asked you before we started, because I don't know what the rules are, but do we, do you ever say his name? Is he discussed? Is it a secret? I usually don't just because, I don't know, I just never really saw a point in it. He got a bunch of full-ride scholarships to play women's volleyball. Kennesaw State and George Mason University. And after I spoke out, and they just found out that he was a guy, they took the scholarships away.

So he kind of went like off the right. radar. Unbelievable. Yeah. And he posted a couple TikToks, I'll have to show you. And he goes through this long list about what happened to senior year. And he talks about himself, like he got all the scholarships taken away because the coaches found out he was a trainee and stuff like that. So I hear a lot saying how it's never been verified that it was a guy or whatever and people were trying to say he was intersex and or really just was a girl and I'm like making it all up or whatever but he even admits it himself and we already knew because one it was obvious but two their athletic director told us their athletic director knew for sure yeah yeah it's just

It's all so bizarre. All right, let's watch this real quick. That was fast. Oh, and there you are with Bill and Dana. How soon after were you on Fox talking about that? This was right after I graduated high school, actually, because that was my first time flying. I went to New York for that.

How was that? It was nice. My dad's first time flying, too. And that's your mom and dad there. Here it is again. All right. That's him and that's you. Yeah.

Well, what year was it? 2020. God, what a time that was, man. It seems like a, I can't believe that was just three years ago. Yeah. It's been crazy. Okay. So then that's what happens and you're diagnosed and when do you know that you're going to be living with permanent whiplash?

And what does it mean to have a. brain bleed at this point? Yeah. I found out like the next week when I finally got to go to the neurologist. And it was really hard. Like the symptoms were a lot worse at first. I had really bad memory loss. I still have pretty bad cognitive issues. I have to get extra help in school. And that was never a problem. I was always very good at school and staying on top of everything and never forgetting anything. like completely different. I've kind of learned how to navigate it. It's my new normal, but you know, my parents always say I'm just never, like I'm just not the same kid anymore. Is it difficult for you to access memories or maths or how does it manifest exactly?

Yeah, it's hard. I can't remember like my memory is still pretty bad. It's just like retaining information. It's hard for me to, like, hold on to it. I was never good at math, so that was on me. But it's gotten a lot better. My balance was really bad. I had to go get my glasses redone. Like, I had to test separately at school in another room, and I had to get extra time on tests. Your parents must have been pissed. Yeah. I mean, just, I just can't imagine. Very. Yeah. And your teammates? And, like, when did you feel, like something had to be done. When did you want to become involved in this movement?

It took me a little while to think about it. This happened the beginning of September, and I spoke out like that next April. I turned 18 that March. So it was shortly after, but I'd made the decision by that time because I didn't want to get involved because I was about to finish my senior year

and go to college. I didn't know what I wanted to be. You wanted to be an 18-year-old girl who didn't get hit in the face with a volleyball at about 90 miles an hour. Yeah, that's what I wanted. And, you know, public speaking was never my thing. The only class I'd ever failed was public speaking.

You're kidding me. Oh, my God. So now, I mean, you realize you're kind of speaking publicly for a living. Yeah. So now it's like, it's so funny how that works out. but that was the only class I'd ever felt. So public speaking was not in my radar whatsoever, but just the thought of this happening to my younger sister, Avery,

who's about to be a junior in high school, she also plays three sports. And it's been hard for me to talk about how it really affected me. And like, I never want to be seen as playing a victim or feeling sorry for myself. Like, I've just never raised like that. and I never wanted to be seen like that. So it was kind of hard for me to share my story at first

because I didn't want people to feel sorry for me. But then I had to realize like... This thing did happen. It did happen and it is real. And I figured if I shared my story, at least it could help one other girl and that would be good enough for me. So that's what kind of pushed me to do it.

I prayed a lot about it. And I thought, like what a waste that would have been if I just didn't say anything and this was still, you know, allowed in North Carolina or I feel like my story has, it's made people really be like, like this is a real life thing and it's actually happening everywhere. It's happening in rural North Carolina. Like that doesn't happen there and we definitely did not know what to do in that situation because we that doesn't happen like we didn't know how to deal with it so i mean you're not supposed to know how to deal with it you're 17 years old yeah you know but the teachers didn't know

how to deal with it the governor didn't know how to deal with it yeah the assembly people didn't know how to deal with it the superintendent of the school the principal your teachers your parents and all your parents friends no one they were watching a thing happen right in front of them Yeah. And it's kind of extraordinary, right? Because you just, you can't deny it's happening. You can't seem to stop it from happening. And now it's happened.

And so people are still like scrambling to make sense of it. I'll tell you something. Full disclosure, Peyton. When I saw what happened to you, my first thought was I would really like to talk to this young woman. And then I talked to Riley. She came on to the podcast. Did you know her? back then?

Did you know of her or what? So I met her at the General Assembly. So when I talked for the first time, that's when I met her. I hadn't heard of her. You didn't know about her story? No. Okay. So what happened to me was we had a great conversation

and it really stirred up as much controversy as I ever start up, which is not that much really. But then the election happened and then the president signed whatever he signed, and my partner, Mary, was there. I think that's probably where, you know, she was in D.C. with you guys, the Independent Women's Forum. By the way, I don't know if you know this about me, but I was awarded the Distinguished Gentleman Award. Yes. Okay. By the

Independent Women's Forum back six, seven years ago. I know about the organization. I think what they're doing is great. Being a fan of both women and independents. I love to be a fan of both women and independents. those two things smashed together. Yes. But I didn't think that maybe it was necessary to have this conversation again, given the fact that this bill was signed and like the country seemed to have come to its senses. But we really haven't. This is still happening.

Yeah. And so, okay, we'll keep talking about it. But where are we, in your opinion, in the road to getting like, a real consensus. Like, where's the fight now? Why are you guys still... What are you trying to accomplish legally? Yeah.

With what you're doing. Well, the executive order was amazing. Huge step in the right direction. And I was so thankful to be a part of that whole thing. I'm thankful that we have an administration that was willing to see it for how important it is. But, you know, that's not permanent. and there's a lot of states who aren't even acknowledging it, like California and Michigan and all these other states

that are just straight up refusing to do it and it's still happening today. So, you know, I think with more and more stories coming out almost every other day, I think we're in a way better spot than we were, of course, like a couple years ago, I think more and more people have spoke up and are less afraid to say something. I think like before we were in this weird place where no one could say anything. If it was the slightest bit controversial, it would just be

the end of the world, you're canceled, like everything. And I think now people have just realized how insane it is to not be allowed to talk about reality. And, I think we're moving in a good direction. More people every day are willing to say no. And we see the girls, like those girls that stepped down from the podium and the one that stepped up on the first place podium after losing to the Hernandez boy. Tell me that story, just so people understand exactly what's your. Yeah, so A.B. Hernandez was that guy in California that was competing.

with the women and track and film. And he was of course dominating. So many girls are getting left off, even qualifying because of one position that he's taking or they're missing out on championship titles because of him. And California's governor, Gavin Newsom even admitted that he sees it as a fairness,

issue but chooses to do zero about it and Hernandez got up on the first place podium and people were booing and when he stepped down I can't remember her name this brave girl who had gotten second but really had gotten first stood up on the took her place on the first place podium and everyone like the cold crowd roared yeah I think parents are getting upset as they should have been. I think that's been a big thing. I think the parents really showed out these past couple times and are just saying like, no, we're not putting our daughter in this position because it's just not right. It's not fair and it's not safe. How have the politicians reacted that you've testified before?

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at puretalk.com slash row. Pure Talk. I think, so my most previous thing, I testified at the Doge hearing a few weeks ago. And me and this other brave woman who, Stephanie Turner, she was the fencer who took a knee. And then she got disqualified from the tournament. So Stephanie was facing off against a man. Yes. Took a knee.

Very respectful protest. She even said, like, I don't hate you. I just am. This is a woman's tournament, and I'm only going to compete against women. And she was awesome, but they had that hearing with me, her, the USA fencing guy who was like over it in some way that I subpoena him because he wasn't going to come in. And then he got grilled because he's like saying how he was going against Stephanie. and posting all the stuff about her and how they need to be more inclusive of USA fencing and all the stuff. Anyway, they grilled him.

And the politicians that spoke to me, I mean, I only got questioned or even acknowledged by the Republican side. The Democrats didn't even ask us one question. We were in there for three hours. They didn't even acknowledge us until the cameras weren't rolling. Like, it would be a break. and then they would come over there and Congresswoman Stansbury and Crockett both came over to us

and tried to, after just causing a whole scene and totally deflecting the whole situation and acting like it wasn't happening and belittling it, they belittled like Stephanie's sport saying that fencing is like not a big deal and all the stuff. They were horrible.

And then as soon as the cameras weren't rolling, They came up to us and thanked us for being there and apologized for, like, what we went through. But not on camera. Yeah. And they didn't get the reaction that they thought they were going to get. Like, me and Stephanie, we had just sat there for three hours, and we didn't even know they knew we were there unless they had come over there and said something to us. So we weren't taking that. Like, I don't believe them.

And I think it's the theatrics and trying to get media time. I'm like, I don't know what they were doing, but... Did you ask them? Yeah. Stephanie said, well, if you were really sorry, then why didn't you ask us a question? What they say? And they said that the Republican Party, the ones who invited us to be there, will ask us the questions.

Like, what? Cowards. Yeah. So it's just so fake. And that's pretty much been the common theme between parties, if who actually cares. Are you interested in politics beyond this yourself? I don't know.

I've always been interested enough in it to know what's going on, but I never wanted to go into it, but I'm starting to enjoy it. For the most part, I just never want to be a politician. I try to be as genuine and honest and down to earth as I can be. I think it's like politics is such an easy way to fall into the very, very, selfish, very all about themselves in order to get the political attention you need to get to make it, I guess. What sort of reaction have you gotten? Well, from both sides, because I imagine for a lot of young women and parents, I bet, are you a role model, Peyton McNabb? Have you become a role model for some and have you become an enemy to others?

Yes. Yes. I've definitely become an enemy. of me. I hope I've become a role model. I try my best to be. I mean, the support has been overwhelmingly more than the criticism. Tell me about it. How does it, do you get phone calls, letters, emails? What are you hearing? A little bit of all of it. A lot of messages from parents and coaches and athletes from all over who it's happening there and they don't know what to do and thanking us for saying something about it because, I mean, North Carolina's not the best, but we were able to speak about how we feel.

And I'm from a place where, you know, I wasn't getting threatened into silence and I wasn't losing friends over saying something about it. Like, everyone that I was friends with had common sense, so I wasn't getting, like, friendless. Well, that's good. Nobody wants to be friendless, but I think, you know, it's just always interesting to hear from people that you've never met

about something so personal. Yeah. What do you say to young women who reach out who are either nervous or anxious or who ask you for advice? What do you tell them? I tell them that they don't owe silence to anyone standing up for themselves and for common sense and basic reality and the whole list that goes down. Like that's okay and that's normal.

And they should never feel scared to say that because at the end of the day, like, what's going to happen? What are they going to do to you? And if they do actually do something like you were in the right and what you were fighting for is on the right side of history, so I try to just be very open and honest. I try to help it any way I can. Are your parents encouraging in this? Very, very. So my dad was actually my principal.

Really? Yeah. In that school? Yeah. So he's in a horrible situation. He still fills the guilt from it, which there's something he could have done because it was legal at the time.

So, but today, of course, he's saying, like, he would have canceled the whole game, all the stuff. That's my question. Like, I know you can't speak for him, but. Yeah, he would have never. But maybe you can. Like, is he hearing from other principals? Yeah. Is he reaching out to other schools and saying, look, this is your school.

You don't have to simply fall in line, you know? Well, during that time, I think it was like, what he was, him and my mom, they were so focused on getting a hold of anyone in our state that would be willing to help. It was crickets from everyone. No one was helping or even acknowledging what we were asking for and they were just reaching out to anyone they could. Several schools in our area all canceled their games with this team after this happened to me and I guess like kind of in protest of it. But also because they don't want their girls getting knocked out unconscious by this guy. So we never played them again in volleyball. Our county voted on it. Our school board did like a whole made all the teams and

all the schools in the county vote on if they wanted to play against this team. And two out of the three voted no. So they ended up taking them off of our schedule. But they lost a lot of games because a lot of schools said no. The whole thing is just so crazy. Yeah. Tell me more about the Independent Women's Forum. For people who've never heard of them before, what's your understanding of what they do? And are you an actual member? Yes, I'm an ambassador. So I started off as a spokesperson, spokeswoman, and then I am now an ambassador for them. I mean, they're just amazing. They are getting stuff done all over the place. Like, we have an event in New Mexico next week for women's sports week, and they're right in the front of the lawns. They're getting.

getting all these bills into all these different states and working so hard to make policy change and find these stories and really elevate them to a higher level. And they're really good about that. Like the features thing that the kill shot was on, they have really good ones of all kinds of different stories from across the board. Like they do the prisons and they do the bathrooms and the sororities. and all that stuff. So they've got it covered completely,

and they're very good at their job and getting the stories out. Yeah. Chuck, do you remember watching this in 2022? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I remember talking to you about it, but it was such a weird time. We were locked down still,

and the world just felt awfully strange. But yeah, I just, what do you remember feeling? Like, did you go straight to anger, or were you just like, What do? The very first feeling was I was horrified. I was like, oh, you know, like just you look at it and you go, that really had to hurt. And then I got angry. Then once I realized that this was a biological man who was doing that. Is there any other kind? Yeah, I know. That's a silly term. I don't understand why we. Come on now, Chuck. Yeah. Sorry. You got to get that language right. So back to the team. I realize that things changed in the county and so forth.

But what about your friends? What about like your, like, I don't know. Where do you go? If somebody gets hurt, I've played sports before. I've done friends who've been hurt. I know what to do in that world, but not in this circumstance. To be hurt like that and as a result of that. Did it make people, like, let me.

fearful to speak out? I think so. I think so for sure. My friends, they were just amazing. Like through the whole thing, they were very gentle through the whole thing and watched me and helped my parents with me and they're still very supportive with everything. So I'm very blessed to have a really great support system, really great community and family. I found a group, even when I went to college, I mean, that was like a whole my college experience was just like a whole other story, but I found a great group there who are very supportive. Good or bad in college? Bad. I don't go anymore. I'm on law and I had to move home. What happened? Okay, so a year ago, this is like the last day of class. I walk out. I walk out.

out of the bathroom stall and there's a full dude in there with a dress. And I was like, I completely froze. I could not believe this was happening to me who advocates and speaks for, you know, encourages other women and girls to call this out and say it's not okay and because it's not. What college? Western Carolina. And you're a freshman at this point? Yeah. I'm finishing my freshman year. Okay. And my first semester wasn't, it wasn't the, Like, I didn't really find my place or whatever. Second semester, I joined the sorority, and that's where I met all my friends. So I was actually starting to, like, school.

And I questioned this guy because I was like, how hypocritical of me would that have been for me just to smile and wave and act like everything was gray and walk out, and that's my whole stance. So I asked him why I was in there. It was honestly a pretty polite conversation. conversation. I posted it. What do you mean? You wrote about it? I posted the video. Oh, you made a video? Yeah, because I didn't know. I didn't know if he was like a student there. I didn't know because it's a public university. Anyone's in our bathroom and there's always fill trips and little girls coming in out of there or people's families coming in and out.

And I was just like, this is happening at my school. Like I couldn't believe that was happening there. And I didn't know. So I videoed it because I didn't know how he was going to react and I didn't know. I didn't want anything to be said that didn't happen. So we had a pretty polite conversation, I guess. I just explained how he shouldn't have been in there and he's not a woman and he says as a trans girl. It's just like this whole thing. I posted on X and it blew up and I got a call like the next day from my story.

sorority, having to set up a meeting with nationals. I ended up eventually getting... National sorority organization? Yeah. Do do do do do do do do do. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies

all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department. department for better or worse. And it's also why I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves a million times over by helping countless employers get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before. And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most

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It was like all that crazy stuff, but I met with them, had two different meetings. They ended up terminating my membership, saying I embarrassed them, essentially. And they don't want to be associated with me and my hatred. And so I got kicked out of that. Then I had to fight illegal battle for nine months. I, last fall semester, I had to move home and go online because people were trying to find where I lived.

And at school, I had to get monitored by the campus police until I moved home early. And people were just trying to find me and do the same thing to me and, like, all this stuff. So the school didn't feel comfortable with my safety there either. So I did last fall semester online. I took this semester off. And if I didn't just have a year left, I wouldn't go back because I don't know, college is just like not. Anyway, I ended up winning that trial in this past January. Did it go to court?

In school court, I guess. I had to hire an attorney. And then he had an attorney. We had a whole panel and a judge, court reader, like whole thing. And the judge immediately had pronouns, so we didn't think we were going to win at all. Even my lawyer was like, we're not going to win. We ended up winning. So he was trying to get me charged with sexual harassment and expelled from school.

The guy in the dress? Yeah. So even though you had a cordial conversation, he decided to take it to the next level. Yeah, he said my voice haunts him in his head. And he was hoping that he thought he looked really cute that day. And he was hoping that other girls would want to be his friend and compliment his dress. And I was like... So is this a video?

Yeah. That's a student. Yeah. And he is almost 30 years old. Just turned 19 at the time. You're 19. He's 30. Yeah.

And yeah, that was it. that's your video posted on X right yeah how many views is that thing of 569000 people see this so that is why you get thrown out of the sorority and why the school starts to fear for your safety yeah and the school was like all on his side basically like the investigator was on his side saying because I filed a report back after he reported me I reported him him and they threw mine out and said it was like not important any normal person would have a problem with this was there no consideration to what you had been through just two years earlier no yeah there was zero consideration of that and I had to basically like prove that point this past

january and had an amazing attorney who really worked hard on it and got all the facts out and we just laid out the law and i explained how I did not commit sexual harassment, but anyway, it was horrible. How do you think personally about, I mean, beyond your own personal experience, are you sympathetic? Do you feel pity? Do you feel like, I mean, you know there's another side. You know there's another argument. I'm not going to make it, but I'm just curious.

for the trans movement in general. Yeah. I mean people can look at that and they can say, look, this is a person who's just doing their best, playing the cards they've got, and the law is on their side. You know, we can have the whole conversation about whether or not all of that is the product of a warped analysis

or you can look at it and say, well, maybe do you think of these people as afflicted? do you think how do you like where do you put it um well i mean personally of course i think it's all completely fake i think it's a false reality and that's something that they struggle with and it's really nothing like i don't care what people do with their own life like i'm not trying to ever tell people how they should be but when it crosses over into me having to act like it's okay for them to feel better about themselves and for them to come into

our spaces, like, that's not okay. If he was just walking around like that, I wouldn't have talked to him if he was outside, but it's the fact that he was in the women's bathroom. And it's the fact that the first one was in a women's category, in women's

sports. So that's the whole issue. And it can very easily be turned into transphobia or against, I don't know, like all those words, bigot, everything that you get called. But I'm Christian and I've always been taught to love everyone and so I try. Again, we made this argument in the case as well. If I would, if I would have just passed him in the hallway, I wouldn't have even probably looked over there.

But it's just when it, when it affects me and when I'm getting told, I have to like I agree with it and act like everything's okay when it's not. I'm just simply not doing that. Yeah. Have you made new friends since you left college? And are you in a different sort of world now, a different ecosystem? Yeah. I'm still friends with a lot of girls that were in my sorority.

They're fully on board with everything I did and people at school in general. but I've made a lot of friends through this and just getting to travel around and meet a bunch of different people. That's probably been the best part about, one of the best things about this whole thing. You do admire. I really do admire Raleigh, and I know that's probably like a basic answer,

but she, I can't even describe how good she is, or how good she's been for me in this. She's been such a great role model and someone I've just very much strive to be like and hold myself like. I think she just does it incredibly well and she's very real and genuine and she just really does care about all the right things and just the way she handles it. Everything is just very admirable. So she's just as amazing off camera. She's just as amazing off camera. She is on, and I'm very thankful to call her a friend, and very thankful to have had her along the way. She's just great.

I understand. She's expecting. She is. She's going to be the best mom, and Louie's going to be the best dad. Like, they're just going to be the best parents ever. So I'm very, very excited. What are we going to do about your speaking career? I'm still stuck on the idea that the one class you failed is public speaking.

Yeah. I don't know. Now you're doing podcasts and testifying here and there. Yeah. Is there, I mean, is there a point do you think where, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of the expression. Everything happens for a reason, but I do know that there's almost always a silver lining. Oh, yeah, always. And I always try to look for that too. Like, I do think everything.

I think the Lord has a plan and everything. And I try to follow it the best I can. And of course, it's not probably as much as I should or as perfect as it should be. But I try to follow that because I have zero plans. I've had zero plans. I've just kind of went with where it goes and I think everything will just work out. But I've got to make some kind of decision because I'm at the point where I have to make that decision. You probably are.

How old are you now? I just turned 20. You just turned 20. I have a year left to school if I. I mean, I will finish. Do you think you'll go back to the same school? No. Like, you know what?

My parents might be listening to this. Yes, I'm going to finish. To my dad, I am finishing. But no, I'm definitely not going back to that school. I don't know where I'm going. I'm thinking about liberty or I don't know. I would want to stay probably in the South somewhere else. What do you love most about the South?

Um, I love everything about it. I just love where I'm from. I love the family and just, just, I love the mountains. And I also work at a, at a marina when I'm at home. So I love being on the water and just being so close to everyone. Like, that's exactly where I would want to raise a family. It's somewhere like that. Well, I'm thinking about it and I've got the perfect job for you. Oh, perfect. I've had a few jobs, Peyton. I've been around. I've seen some things. I think you're going to be an amazing cruise director. You think? Yes.

Like Julie on the love boat. If you haven't seen that, Google it. But you're going to have to talk to guests on the boat. You're going to have to be doing all kinds of PR for the boat of the ship. You'll be on the water all the time. Honestly, this is a great idea. I would have to go on a cruise first. You should go on a cruise first just to make sure you don't get finally ill.

Yes. Okay. But if you're already working on the water, you're going to be fine. That's what you should do. You should go on a cruise. I think Norwegian is a great line, you know, and I know they're all hiring right now. Oh, perfect. That's what I'll do then.

Yeah. Yeah, let's find a cruise line for you. It's got its head screwed on straight. Perfect. I get you, Peyton McNabb. Welcoming people aboard. We'll see you on the Lido deck. Today, you'd be amazing.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's my new, that's my new dream. Well, good. I think we just justify the whole trip to California. All right. Well, is there anything you wish I would have asked you that I didn't? Is there anything you've been dying to share that you haven't?

Let me try to think. I mean, I'm asking you this seriously because I know you're an ambassador to the IWF. And I'm a big fan, seriously, of that organization. I think they've accomplished and are trying to accomplish some really great things. And if the cruise director thing doesn't work out, obviously they're lucky to have you. But you're going to spend a lot of time, as you know, constantly, you know, thinking about big ideas and trying to figure out how to articulate them and trying to figure out what's persuasive. That's really what you're going to run into.

Yeah. It's one thing to believe something, but it's a nice thing. another thing to get somebody to listen to it. Absolutely. So how are you going to do all that? I don't know. I'm going to, I don't know. I'm going to have to keep asking you for advice.

Well, that's why I'm here. No, you don't need advice for me. I think what you're doing is pretty great. And look, I mean that. I think, you know, events happen. And there's a long list of stuff we can't control. a thing happened to you. It shouldn't have.

But it did. And now you're out in the world with it. Tell your story. Tell your story. Thank you. And thank all of the other young women I met in the Capitol that day. If I don't see him again. I'm going to see Amy.

I'm excited for that, for you. She's the best. That was my first time getting to spend time with her. It was in Austin. Yeah? And I love her. Like, I immediately loved her. How do you say your last name?

I want to make sure I pronounce her right. How do you say? Itchikawa. Amy Itchikawa. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. She has an amazing story, and I'm going to jump into that next time. But for now, welcome to California.

Thank you. You'll be staying here tonight as well? Yes. All right. Yes. Will you enjoy yourself, take a walk on the beach? Don't wander off too far, though. It's crazy out there.

I'll jump on a cruise. Jump on a cruise. That's right. You know, actually, you can take a walk. down to Marina del Rey is maybe two miles. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah, just walk down to the, yeah, walk down, you walk through Venice, walk down to the pier there in Marina del Rey, their boats all over the place. Maybe you stow away on one. Maybe I will. I'll let you know. Maybe don't do it at night, no. Yeah, yeah, good to know. Thank you. Where can people go? What can people do to help in your

efforts. Yeah, I just think anywhere on IW, they have great resources and they share, they keep me updated and keep everyone updated very well. So I think they have stuff on all social medias, or they have platforms on all social medias. And I think just keeping up with them pretty much get the gist of what's going on because they're on top of it. Yep. And if you'd rather watch the short version of it, there's a 15-minute film. It's called Killshot. It's on their website. That's a, is it IWF.org, Chuck? IW features. IW features?

Okay. Oh. IWF.org, yes. That is it? Yeah, that's the whole... IWF.org will get you there. Yeah, you'll get there. Yeah, and then you'll find it.

Thanks, Peyton. Thank you. When you leave a review, only five stars will do, not just one or just two or just three, we were hoping. Four. Just a quick review with five. The ocean delights us as playful otters restore coastal kelp forests.

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