The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 453: Enes Kanter Freedom—In the Name of Freedom

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

NBA player turned human rights activist Enes Kanter Freedom shares his remarkable journey growing up in Turkey under an oppressive regime, his rise to NBA stardom, and the high personal cost of speaking out against tyranny. From being exiled by his home country to being effectively blackballed from the NBA, Enes opens up about the courage it takes to stand alone—and why he refuses to stay silent. He also discusses his powerful new book, In the Name of Freedom, and what it means to fight for something bigger than the game. Shout out to our great sponsors American-Giant.com/MIKE Use code MIKE to get 20% off your order. KnobelSpirits.com Spend $100, get bitters-infused sugar cubes FREE. Just add to cart & use code CARL.

Hey, it's the way I heard it. Sorry, I'm a bit... Wow, you really came out hot and then just flopped. Well, you know. Because this is a weird one. I'm Mike. That's Chuck, by the way. If you're new to the show. In the name of freedom is the name of this episode.

My guest is Ennis Freedom. I'm stumbling all over the place because I've already interviewed him. And to be honest, I already talked to him about a lot of the things that we talk about in this conversation. Right. But I don't think there's been a more consequential guest on this show, maybe ever. And I was struck the first time, but only struck in the way you can be struck when you're interviewing somebody over Zoom or Riverside or whatever that was. Yeah. It's different when a seven foot tall man is right before you and is telling you the story of his life and how he gave up tens of millions of dollars to be a civil rights activist.

story of his young life. Yes, right. He was not an old man at all. No, if you don't know it, the short version is this guy lived the American dream. He came over from Turkey as a teenager, very tall, hell of a basketball player, played most notably for the Utah Jazz and the Boston Celtics, but a bunch of others in between the trailblazers and so forth. It's a center. It was very good. Great, really. Then he started mouth it off. With his shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was concerned about what was happening in his home in Turkey and wrote some things on his shoes to bring that to the attention of the media. And, oh, his teammates loved it.

They congratulated his bravery for taking a stand because Turkey was not pleased. But then his reach exceeded his grasp. And his shoes started to say some things about Tibet and China. And then, of course, the NBA could not live with that. And so long story short, Ennis sacrificed pretty much everything, his career, his family, tens of millions of dollars. And now he's written a book, which I sure hope you'll pick up. It's called In the Name of Freedom. And, you know, it took me a long time to get to it, but spoiler alert, the thing that was bugging me through the whole conversation, not bugging me, but just I was trying to get my head around it because it all sounded kind of familiar.

But it really does come back to the difference between a person who will do something brave that has nothing to lose and a person who will do something brave that has everything. That costs them everything. Right. Like the guys who signed the declaration, you know. There's also a rumination too, I think, on courage and like especially courage under fire. And I think there's a difference between a person who is simply. fearless and will therefore do damn near anything in battle because their brain just doesn't process fear the same way.

Right. Right. Versus people who are scared half to death or maybe all the way and do it anyway. It's hard to know who you are, I think, until, you know, you're confronted with the kinds of choices that Ennis was confronted with. But my God, he made his choice and he paid a price. And now, you know, nobody's got a crystal ball, but if he's remembered decades from now, the same way we remember Muhammad Ali, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Yeah. And look, first of all, he's a really gentle giant. He's a sweet guy who really loves people of all, you know, races and religions. Yeah. And he didn't start that way. No, he started off indoctrated, unfortunately, like a lot of young kids are in that part of the world. Yeah. He had a very dim view of Americans, a very dim view of Christians,

and even dim review of Jewish people. Yeah. And we talk about how all of those views were challenged and ultimately overcome by the kindness of individuals and some remarkable advice from his mom that I don't want to spoil. I'll let him tell you that. But this episode is coming out on a day that has become a horrific anniversary. the world over. And that topic comes up as well, Gaza and Israel, and all the trouble in the world

and all the trouble in the NBA and one guy's story about how he just broke through all of it. It's very inspirational. And honestly, that word makes my teeth hurt. I try not to use it. But it absolutely fits. I mean, I was kind of spellbound and a little emotional. Well, you said it right when the conversation ended. One more dude who's better than us. Yes, that is 100% true. Which wouldn't have been a bad title for this either. But I'm going with the name of his book, which again, you'll just love.

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Thank you for coming. Of course, man. We were just chatting about how podcasts evolve and how things change, and I remember interviewing you over, what is Riverside, I guess. Oh, Riverside or Zoom, one of them. One of them. Yeah. And, you know, it's so weird, man, how you can go from being so grateful to have a way to connect with people.

And it just makes your life simple. And then within like no time at all, you're so dissatisfied. It's like, this is just not, this is a prophylactic. Like, on Riverside, you seem like a normal person. You're like, you can't tell somebody seven feet tall. In reality, I'm a little scary. A giant. What a pleasure it is to.

to meet you in person, I know last time we spoke, what was it, Chuck, two years ago? I believe so, yeah. I had just seen you in Florida at the Patriot Awards. I was there. You were there. Your story, I mean, I don't know who I was sitting next to, to my right or to my left, but they were both weeping. Oh, man, that means a lot.

Well, it meant a lot to the people in the audience. And then when I spoke to you, I remember saying to you, when's the book, man? You've got to sit down. You know you're busy, saving the world and making free throws and whatnot, but you've got to get all this down. So two years later, you took my advice. You've written a book. It's called in the name of freedom. Congratulations.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Finally, I mean, this was my dream. Like you said, it's been two years now. And for the last two years, I've been trying to get my family out of Turkey. Yeah. So my plate was so full. And unfortunately, we failed every time.

And then I'm like, you know what? I think I'm just going to start, I don't want to say I'm like moving on or giving up, but then I'm like, you know, I just got to keep myself busy and then just started to write the book. Well, I think maybe for the benefit of the listener, I ought to ask you just to give me a thumbnail of what we talked about in the past and what brought you to this point because it's a lot. But I mean, your family, man. Make it simple for people to understand. What in the world led you to the NBA and then out of the NBA and finally to hear? I think, you know, the people to understand better, I want to like tell you a little bit about my childhood.

You know, growing up in Turkey, it was a very difficult childhood. If you are a politician in Turkey and if you want to be elected again, you do a couple things. You attack America, you attack Christians and you attack Jewish people. And unfortunately, the base is so uneducated. they're like, wow, look at our leader. He's standing tall against America, tall against the West, toll against the Jewish people that's vote for him. So that was the case when I was growing up.

I remember I was nine years old. I went downstairs to play with my friends. And I remember my friends, which, like, who were not even teenagers, they were burning American flags. They were breaking crosses. And I remember, like, asking one of my friends, like, guys, like, what are you doing? They said, well, we should hate America. we should hate Christians, they're devil, they're evil people.

Is this in the 80s? Mid-80s? I'm born in 1992. So I'm talking about like 2000. You were born in 92. Yeah. So I'm talking about like 2000s. I'm like like, what are you guys doing?

They said, well, we should hate America. We should hate the Christians. We should hate the West. And I remember one of my friends, which was my best friend, he gave me a flag to burn it. He gave me an American flag. He gave me a lighter and he said, burn it. I looked down. I'm like, this is not a right thing to do.

I threw the flag down, I ran upstairs to my mom. I was like, Mom, my friends are telling me to hate Americans, hate Christians, hate Jewish people. Like, what do I do? My mom said, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but do not hate anyone before you meet him. So that day, I give a promise to my mom. I promise I'm not going to hate anyone before I meet him. You know, like this doesn't happen in, well, in some areas happen in Turkey, but in Middle East. So in schools, front of classes, you have an American flag and you have an Israeli flag.

And if you don't step on this flags, you are not allowed to attend the class. You don't step on them. Yep. You have to step on them. You walk into the classroom and you literally tread on the Israeli flag and the American flag. And if you don't, you will get bullied rest of your school year. by your teachers, by your, I don't know, classmates. So the environment I was growing up in was that toxic.

You know, finally, my dad said we have to move to West. We have to move to Istanbul. And when we moved to Istanbul, obviously things were a little better, but it was still toxic. I'm sorry, your hometown was what? It's a city called V-A-N, V-A-N, it's like the very east out of Turkey. people were not really that educated compared to Istanbul or Ankara capital.

And then when I moved to Istanbul, things got a little better. But then, you know, my dad was like, this is enough. You are going to America. I even remember asking my dad's like, Dad, you really want me to go to Devil's Nest. He's not, you know, it's amazing because he said, go ahead and see yourself. I said, okay. What did your dad do for a living? It was, well, before he got fired.

before they thrown him in jail, he was like one of the biggest scientists in Turkey. And my mom was a very successful nurse. So they were really well educated compared to like other families. And I'm 17 years old. I took a chance, got on a flight. I was about to land in New York for the first time ever. And I remember like when I was flying, I saw the Statue of Liberty. I'm like, man, this is so crazy because like I've been seeing that statue.

in movies and now I can I'm like flying over it was your association though I mean growing up the way you did with that level of you know deliberate maybe indoctrination is too strong a word but certainly an ethos did you associate liberty with that statue did you like what did liberty even mean to you at that point that meant nothing because like grown up we really didn't have like much freedom more liberty. And everything was controlled by the governments, all the media outlets, newspaper. I don't want to say all of them, but like many of them was controlled by the governments. And when Erdogan Tukov obviously became the worst in probably Turkish history, but pretty much everything was controlled by the government. Was Erdogan elected in what

you would think of as a democratic election? Well, in the beginning, yes. And he actually, like, When I have a conversation with people like in an Obama administration, a Biden administration, the Trump administration, they said, well, till 2012, he looked like he was going to carry Turkey to a better democratic country. He was keep talking about the Western values and American values. And then once the corruption happened and he got caught back in 2013, everything changed. And he was caught exactly. doing what? The corruption scandal.

Yeah. He was stealing from people. And him and his family members were involved in it, and the police caught him. And then after that, he was just putting innocent people in jail. And yet he was still elected in Democratic elections after that. Yep, he was a prime minister then. Heck of a thing, man, what people will do. Right. So, you know, I came to America for the first time I was 17 years old. It was actually very crazy because it was my first high school practice.

And I remember two of my teammates who were Christians, they walk up to me in a locker room and said, listen, man, we know that you're from Turkey and we know that you're Muslim. And if you want, after the practice, we would like to take you to a go get some halal food and take you to a mosque. I promise you I turn around and left the locker room because I just didn't know what they were trying to do. But then I remember the promise. Don't hate them until you meet it. Exactly. So I came back, I was like, you know what, what I have to lose, let's go.

They were so respectful. They were so kind. They took them to a mosque. They even took their shoes off, right? And then we went to go get some Turkish food. It was so amazing, so delicious. That two teammates changed my whole life. They put a little question mark in my head.

I started to question for the last 17 years. I was hearing about how devil, how evil the Americans are. The devil's just. Exactly. So like that two teammates put a question mark in my head. So were you in Utah or Boston? So in high school, I went to California, Simi Valley. And it was just an amazing experience.

Stornage prep, beautiful area. I mean, I just love California because of the weather. It was so beautiful. So and then after my high school year, I met a friend who was a girl. I remember one day, you know, she called me and said, you know, I want you to come to my house for dinner. Would you like to come Friday? I was like, well, I'm busy Friday. Can I come Saturday?

They said, no, no, no, it has to be Friday. I was like, why? They said, well, because that's our special dinner. I'm like, what are you talking about? They said, well, it's a Shabbat dinner. I said, what's a Shabbat dinner? I said, what's a Shabbat dinner? They said, well, just because of we are Jewish, as soon as I heard the word Jewish,

I hang up the phone. I promise you. And I sit there for a second, I'm like, I cannot believe I just had a conversation with someone who is Jewish. Like, am I going to go to hell? I promise you. Having an American or Christian friend was, I guess, like, sure, whatever, but like having a Jewish friend, man. I'm like, what am I doing? Yeah. You know? So then I remember the promise again. I

give it to my mom. I was like, God, I don't know if I could do this. So that night, I barely slept. And then the morning I called there. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to call her and say I'm going to go. So I called there. I was like, listen, I'm going to come. But listen, I don't eat pork. I don't drink alcohol. They said, good. We don't eat pork either. I was like, oh, Oh, interesting. So. Did she say, hey, man, you hung up on me. What was that a little bit? No, she was the kindest person, man. She was so nice. She knew that I just, I mean, my mind was poisoned. So she was just taking her time. Before I went to her house, I called one of my friend that lives in America. I was like, listen, I'm going to go to my friend's house. And he was

like, so why you call him? He's like, well, she's Jewish. He's like, you're crazy. What are you doing? they eat babies, they drink blood, they're going to convert you, you're crazy. Now this isn't just like hyperbole. Did your friend genuinely believe that? Oh yeah, of course. I don't think you can just gloss over it. A lot of people listening are like, yeah, I mean, people, you know, propaganda and so forth. Oh, no, no.

You genuinely believe the Jewish people are eating babies and drinking blood and drinking blood. Yeah, that's what he said. So I was like, listen, I, I. my mom is one of the most important things to me and I gave her a promise and I cannot break that promise. I got to go. I asked him like,

I want you to do one thing for me. And he said, what is it? If you don't hear from me for the next two hours, call the police. This is the address I'm going to. So I gave him, my friend, her address.

And I was like, if you don't hear from me for the next two hours, you got to call the police. D-DU-DU-D-D-D-D-D-D-Dum. Well, are you sick of it yet? Are you sick of A-on? hogging up all the headlines and sucking up all the bandwidth.

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slash mike. That's netsuite.com. That's sweet, da. Anyway, so I took an over, went to her house. Before I got into her house, she kissed her hand and just slapped the door. I'm like, what are you doing? I said, oh, that's a Mazuzza. That's like the prayer that when we walk in the room that we kiss.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting. So when I walk onto her house, her mom greeted me with Turkish delight. And I was just very like, this is very interesting. I was like, are they trying to brainwash me? Why are they being so kind? And what exactly is Turkish delay? Turkish delight is like the most, I think like after Turkish Baclav, I don't want Greek people who's watching us to get mad. Oh, we don't let the Greeks listen.

You're fine. After Turkish Baclav is Turkish July, is actually one of the most like famous thing that the Turks put it out there. Anyway, so, and then we sit down in a Shabbat table. The first they were just praying. They put their hand over their face and they prayed and stuff and they light some candle and stuff. They were explaining everything to me, step by step. And then it was time for the pour the wine or pour the grape juice. And I'm like, there's, it's something red.

I'm thinking about like, is this the blood that my friend is talking about? It's the blood. Or is it actually like, they said, so he gave it to me. That's the showster, she gave me the little glass. I was like, I'm not drinking this. Sorry. She said, well, it's a grape juice. You want me to try?

I was like, you can go ahead and try. I'm not going to try in anything. So that night, I remember I had one of the most amazing dinner I've ever had in my life. The food was very similar, Middle Eastern food. Some of the culture was very similar, the washing hands and all that stuff. And her mom said, before I was about to leave, she said, don't feel for Shabbat, just come any time. This is your family. When I got in the car, I got so emotional because there are millions of kids in Middle East,

grown up anti-Semitic, anti-American, anti-Christian, just because of the kids. those hate speeches. I was like that day, that night I promised to myself, whatever happens in life, I want to do whatever I can to inspire those milies of kids in Middle East, grown out without knowing anything, without knowing the other side. Yeah, that just, that was the first time. So that was a big dinner. The huge dinner. Are you still in touch? Yes. I'm actually still in touch with her. She still helps me with a lot of things. I mean, I usually like give names and stuff, but like whenever I give names, they usually get attacked by Turkish trolls. So I keep everyone's name secret. How much of that is in the book? The story you just told me. It is in a book. Without giving

any names, like if you look at like the first couple pages, I usually use code names. So the people won't, the Turkish government or whoever won't go after them or after their families. And this dinner, how old, again, were you when you had this dinner? God, like 18, 19, something like that. Yeah. So that's a big moment. Then very quickly your NBA career unfolds and everything's coming up roses. And you're just, you're in the land of opportunity and liberty.

And you're the center for, what was it, Utah first? Utah first. And then the Celtics? And then the Celtics, the Knicks, OKC, Portland. So I literally got a taste of like the whole America, every part of America. But the beautiful thing was, you know, I went to the universe of Kentucky. Coach Cal, I think one of the best, you know, college coach out there. I had an amazing time.

Around that time, I was trying to learn English. And I couldn't literally learn any English for a year straight because I had no idea what people in Kentucky was saying because the accent was just so thick, man. Yeah. I had an English translator for whatever day. I understand nothing. I find that super interesting.

Is there a corollary in Turkey where in part of the country, you can be completely fluent in the language? Is Arabic, Farsi? It's Turkish. It's Turkish, but like you said, it's like America, like part of Turkey is like you talk with like a thicker accent. And like people from Istanbul or Ankara wouldn't understand what you're saying because your accent is thick and you use some like very different words and stuff. And also like where I grew up, there were a lot of Kurdish people. So some of them mix with Kurdish, with Turkish. So I'm also like part Kurdish and Turkish.

So many languages do you speak? I only speak to. It's actually very funny. So I learn English. I'm going to get the crazy story. So when I went to college, I went to one of my teammates, I'm like, listen, man, I want to learn like the English that like you guys speak. Is there like a show out there or like a TV series or a movie that you can give me that I can watch it and learn English?

He said, yeah, of course. I was like, what is it? They said, Jersey Shore. So it's crazy. I started watching Jersey Shore, right? I'm like, if this is America's about, Americans are doomed. This is crazy. You should have watched dirty jobs.

You can learn to talk real pretty on that one. No, it was very hard for me to adjust American culture because, like, the one day I woke up, before the practice, you usually eat something like a cereal, whatever. So I pour a cereal brand and I mix it with the milk and I start eating it. And all my teammates were started to go crazy and laugh at me. I'm like, what are you guys doing? Like, why are you guys laughing at me?

They said, this is not cereal. This is cheese it. You know, they said, this is not a cereal. I didn't know what cheese it was. I was like, this is the first time. I guess Americans likes their cereal salty. Anyway. You had a bowl of cheese that's before the game.

That's great. But yeah, and then after that, I got drafted by Utah Jazz. I was very lucky because Mormons, very peaceful and kind people, they knocked my door so many times. We had so many beautiful conversations. But the reason I was very lucky because there's not much things going on in Utah. Everything was shutting down at like 8, 9 p.m. Not a big drink in town.

Definitely not. So I was focusing on basketball. It was perfect for me. So just to kind of cut to the chase, because I know we did talk about a lot of this before, but I just want people to understand as best they can. Did it all go bad overnight? Or did you, when did you first take a stand

that created the series of events that ultimately led to your banishment? So, 2013, in December, there was a huge corruption scandal happening in Turkey. President Erdogan and his family was involved in it. And after that corruption scandal, President Erdogan got, you know, got caught. Well, he was a prime minister back then.

He started to put innocent people in jail. He started to shut down media outlets. He started to put, you know, prosecutors in jail. And I'm like, I don't care who you are, but if you are fighting against free media, I'm going to say something. So I literally put a tweet out there. Because at the NBA platform, it became a huge conversation in United States and Turkey. You're at the Celtics at this point?

I was with Utah, actually. Yeah. So that really bothered the Turkish government. government. They send a lot of signals and say, like, he better stop talking about the issues. You know, first, my dad was scientists. They fired him. My sister, she went to medical school for six years and she still cannot find a job. And I think the saddest one was my little brother, because he wanted to be like his big brother played basketball in NBA, but because of the same last name, he was getting kicked out of every team. So my family was getting affected so much. They

had to put a statement out there and said, we are disowning Ennis. So the letter actually still out there on the internet. I remember going to practice that day. It was definitely one of the toughest day in my life. And then Turkish government didn't believe that letter. They sent, you? I don't have any communication with my family. So I never really had a conversation to ask. But the Turkish government didn't believe that. They sent police to my house in Turkey, and they raided the whole house, and they took every electronics away, phones, computers, laptops, iPads,

because they wanted to see if I am still in contact with my family or not. They couldn't find no evidence because I wasn't, but they still took my dad in jail for a while. If you are someone who's not high-profile, they will torture you in jails. But if you're someone who's high-profile, they will give you chemicals to mess out with your brain.

So when my dad got out, I asked my brother, like, How is he doing? He said he watches the walls all day. And when we ask him what happening there, he never talks about it. And then after that, things got worse. You know, they revoke my passport. They try to kidnap me from, you know, Romania. They arrested me in Romania. Wait, and is this all because of a tweet? Yeah. Well, I mean, after the tweet, I started to like talk about more and more issues because, like, it's my country. And the thing is, I'm not talking about politics. This is human rights.

I was talking about the human rights violations and political prisoners. So I don't care which party you are in Turkey, you have to support what I have to say, because this is not politics at all. This is pure human rights. And then after that, you know, they revoke my passport. They put my name on Interpolist. I am now only allowed to go to 29 countries in the world. If I go any other country, then that country is...

Immediate extradition. Exactly. Right. They have to, because of whatever treaty they signed with Interpol, they have to send you back to Turkey. Even they said this, which was just below my mind. So I was going to Jerusalem to organize a basketball camp between Israelis and Palestinians. So if you go from America directly to Jerusalem, the plane goes over Turkey, and it's their airspace. When I had conversation with some of ambassadors here, they said, listen, this is dangerous because usually that

like the Belarus government, what they did was they call up the plane and say there's a bomb in a plane. They bring the plane down. They do like a little fake search and they said, we can't find anything, but they harassed the guy and they said, okay, keep going. So when we had a conversation with the airline company, they literally went around Turkey. So I could just be safe, which I want to give a huge shout out to old ambassadors to make this happen. And then just, you know, recently I had a conversation. I went to visit Pope back in 2022. I want to his audience, listen to speech, beautiful speech.

And then literally the next day, they put a bounty on my head. The Turkish government put a bounty on my head. And I had a conversation with the FBI literally the next day. They said, listen, this will trigger a lot of bad people. We cannot protect you outside of America. you have to get back to America immediately. So I took a next flight, came to America, and now everywhere I go, I have to let someone know that where I am.

Even when I was playing for Portland Trailblazers, the FBI came to my apartment. To check in with people. Yeah, exactly. And they said, apartment, not safe, you have to move to a hotel. So I moved to a hotel room. When I was in a role game, they came to my room, and they set up this thing called Pundit Button.

They said, whenever you feel uncomfortable, push that button and we'll be there in two, three minutes. So what's the NBA doing in the midst of all this? So actually, like, when the conversation obviously was not China but was about Turkey, they respected me so much. You know, Adam Silver many times came out and said, you know, we support our player. This is commissioner. That commissioner of the NBA. They said, like, you know, the whole NBA, not only the commissioner, but like my coaches, my teammates. the front office, they said, listen, you know, keep doing what you're doing, you believe in,

you're standing for what you believe in, and, you know, we're praying for you. Adam Silver actually have many times came out and said, we support our player, and his interviews are out there on the internet. You know, that meant a lot to me because, you know, basketball was my escape. I mean, I have not seen my family over 11 years, so every time I step on the court, it was just all about me and my teammates, just having fun. They were just like my brothers. Literally, MBA became my family.

Yeah. Until? Until... Until... Until... Until I started to talk about China. Tibet? Every issue, actually, not only Tibet.

It actually started very, very funny because I was doing a basketball camp with Hakim Jeffries in his district. After the basketball camp, all the kids just lined up one by one, and they were just taking pictures and get an hour of. I remember there was this one parent. I was taking a picture with his kid. He literally called me out front of everybody. And he said, how can you call yourself a human rights activist

when your Muslim brothers and sisters are getting torture and rape every day in concentration camp in China? Weirers. It's the Uyghurs. So I was just, whoa, right? And I'm still smiling for the camera for his kid. I was like, I promise I'm going to get back to you.

So that day, I canceled everything. I went back to my hotel. I'm like, I started to research. Uyghurs, Tibetans, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese people, Mongolians, Falun Gongs, right? My plate was full for the last 10 years because of I've been trying to get my family out of there. But then I'm like, listen, if I call myself an activist, I don't care what it takes, I'm not only going to talk about on behalf of Turkish people. I'm just going to go out there, despite their religion, culture, whoever they are,

I'm just going to be the voice of voices, people. And then... You just decided, I've got this career and I've got a platform, I suppose, right? Exactly. I mean, you saw what a tweet could do. What if you really lean into it? Well, people are still raving, raving. I tell you about my mother's performance in the latest.

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at puretalk.com slash row. So actually this time I decided to not operate out there. What I care about was I was like, I want to inspire the next generation. So Celtics fans are going to get mad by it. So I grew up as a Lakers fan. Obviously, Kobe Bryant and Shaq and the championship, whatever, teams. So like when I was waking up at like 3, 4 a.m. in Turkey and watching the Lakers, and the first thing I was watching was the shoes.

Obviously, every kid in the world just loves shoes, right? So I came up with this idea. I was like, I'm going to reach out to all these art. around the world who's been oppressed by their governments, and I'm going to ask them to put all the struggles on a shoe, and I'm going to go out there and play basketball. So I looked at the rule book. You turn your feet into a billboard. Exactly.

I looked at the rule book. There's no rule against it, because back in 2020, during COVID, M.B. put us in a bubble, and in that bubble, everybody was putting on their shoes, Brianna Taylor, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, I can't breathe. So I'm like, there is no rule against it. If they are allowed to put, I can't breathe on their shoes, I should be allowed to put free do egress, free Tibet or whatever. So I was playing for the Celtics.

You're going to love this. I was playing for the Celtics. And our first game, it was the season opener for the Knicks. It was at Madison Square Garden. Literally every celebrity you can't think of was at that game. I'm talking about Spike Lee, Ben Stiller, Tracy Morgan, all the cats. Everybody. So I put the shoes on.

My first shoes was the free Tibet. I went out there, started the warm-up. Literally, the game hasn't started yet. One minute before the game, there was two gentlemen from the NBA. They were walking for the Celtics. They came up to me and said, take your shoes off. I'm like, excuse me? They said, your shoes has been getting so much attention.

The game haven't started yet. You got to take him off. It was the perfect moment for me because I was just getting ready for my citizenship test. So I was like, I closed my eyes. I was like, okay, we have 27 amendments. My first amendment freedom of speech.

I turn around, I'm like, no, I'm not taking them off. I was like, I don't even care if I get fine. They said, buddy, we're not talking about getting fine. We're talking about getting banned. they were literally threatened me to get banned from the NBA because of the shoes that I was wearing. What a long way you came from the kid who hung up on the nice Jewish girl

who invited him over for dinner. I mean, that's amazing. But okay, so that's a moment. And a lot of these moments, and as for me anyway, not that I've been in anything that extreme, but you don't know it until you look back and you realize, wow,

that was the thing that was going to change or altered the trajectory of my life. did you understand in the moment how consequential that was? I understand later on because they were panicked. After the first half, I went back to locker in which I played zero minutes in the first half. There was thousands of notifications on my phone. I clicked on the one that my manager sent me. He said, every Celtics game is banned in China.

It took them 24 minutes to ban every Celtic game on television. Before the game started, because they saw you practicing? They saw warming up. I was laying the ball out. I was not playing at all. The game, I mean, there are like little cameras. The game was televised, like, obviously, nationally. He's on ESPN or something.

So, like, before the game, obviously, they took, like, little videos of the players and stuff. So the first game, it literally took them 24 minutes. the first quarter to 12 minutes, second quarter of 12 minutes, to ban every set this game on television. I was like, well, that clearly shows my point. The first half, I went back out there. I warm up a little more. And the second half, again, I play zero minutes.

The game went to overtime. I played, which I played every game, every preseason game before that. We lost the game, obviously. Obviously. Anyway, so after the game, literally, I was getting, like media requests from all over the world.

I told my manager cancel everything. I just didn't want my teammates to think I'm doing this for attention. After the game, the MBPA called me, which the player association, I paid thousands of dollars every mind to protect my rights against the NBA. They said, you cannot wear their shoes ever again. I even asked them like, am I breaking in rules? They said, no, like, don't you cannot wear them ever again. They pressure me so much.

I was like, you know what? I promise you guys, I'm not going to wear free tibatchers ever again. They said, promise. I said, promise. I hang up the phone. So the second game, I wore free Uighur shoes. You see where this is going right? So the second game, I didn't lie though.

In the second game, I wore free Uighur shoes. They called me after the game. You say, you lie or you lie to us. I was like, first of all, I didn't lie to you. I never said, I'm not going to wear free Uighur shoes. I just said I'm just not going to wear free Tibet shoes. The third game was the end because we played against third or fourth game.

We played against Charlotte. And who owns Charlotte, Michael Jordan. I ordered his shoes. His most famous shows called Concord. I put Made With Slave Labor. Before the game, right, I'm going to go out there and play with those. I saw Michael Jordan on the stands, and I was just like, this is it. Like, this cannot get any more fun and better than this.

So I went out there with his shoes, play front of Michael Jordan, with his own shoes, and put Made with Slave Labor. After the game, all my teammates woke up to me and said, buddy, this is your last year. have fun, you're not going to be playing basketball ever again on an NBA court. So say goodbye to basketball. My agent called me and he said, listen, man, I work for you. I don't work for an NBA. But this is our last year. Just have fun. If you say, I mean, you already did enough damage to MBA and everyone else around you. But if you say another word, you're not going to be playing basketball ever again. You're 29 years old. You can play another six years. You're not only thrown away six

years you're literally thrown away between 30 to 40 million dollars I said okay I hang up the phone never talked them again and February came I played my last game and after the game was against the Brooklyn Nets were you still wearing shoes at this point that are upsetting people oh yeah of course I was like if this is my last year I'm just going to go all out you might as So you got yourself tattoos. I played against my last game against the Brooklyn Nets. And then after the game, the next day was the trade deadline. And after the game, everybody was giving me hugs and shaking my hand.

And pretty much like telling me goodbye. Because they knew it was either going to get released by the Celtics or they were going to trade me to a team. And that team was going to release me. 10 minutes before the tread deadline, I got traded to Houston Rockets, which is known by the China's team because of Yang Ming. And then Houston Rockas literally released me in three minutes. And three weeks after they released me, they put the games back on in the Chinese television.

Did you ever get a sense of what kind of money was at stake? Chinese rights, broadcast. Like, I mean, obviously the NBA made a financial decision, but to what degree? So more people watch. NBA games in China than American population last year. So think about the shoe sales, the jersey sales, Tencent. Think about all the TV deals. Tenson is the big company that's sort of like Facebook on steroids. Every NBA player, I don't want to say everybody, like most of the NBA player, whenever they're season

over, what do you do? You got to relax, right? You go to a vacation with your family, you hang out, Do you just chill? Before even they go to their vacation, they go to China to organize a basketball camp. I even remember, I played in some teams. I don't want to call out some names right now, but like right after the All-Star breaks, I'm talking about like March.

Season was about to end like, well, April if you don't make the playoffs. They were planning their China trip. They said, well, I want to go here. I'm going to go through this because I got a lot of business. I got a lot of money. And I'm just like, I'm just very shocked. I'm like, wow, this is crazy. Players literally planning their China trip before their family vacation.

I'm still stuck on the fact that 400 million people watched the NBA in China. Maybe more now. And also like 40 NBA owners got tied up $10 billion with Chinese government. So this is what I'm trying to get to. It's not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions. it's many, many, many billions of dollars. Of course, yeah. And that's every year.

It comes down to a freaking pair of sneakers, dude. You put on a pair of shoes. You poked the bear in the eye. Actually, that's a bad. That'd be Russia. What is China? You poke the panda bear in the eye. Actually, it's very funny.

You know the cartoon called the Vinnie DePoo? Sure. It's banned in China. Winnie the Pooh is banned in China? You know why? No. So, the Shijian? the president of China, they were making fun of him because they said, well, he looks like the

Winnie DePoo. This dude bang literally the whole cartoon in the whole country. So they called him like Winnie DePoo. It's very funny, because my first interview, I wore a Vinny DePoo t-shirt and no one really got what I was saying, what I was trying to meant, but it was very funny. Well, it's a, you know, Winnie the Pooh was piglet, Eeyore. Tiger. Tiger.

Wonderful thing about Tigger. Tigger's a wonderful thing. The tops are made out of rubber. Their bottoms have made out of spring. Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bundles of fun, fun, fun, fun. The wonderful thing about Tiggers is, I'm the only one. Yeah, I grew up with Winnie. But I had not heard that.

Fascinating. So, just a quick little sidebar. There you go. That's right here. Come on, man. I can see it. I mean, if you could put the hat on. The eyes, the mouth, the nose.

Just no sense of humor, though. I mean, really, you know? I mean, you ought to be able to laugh at that. Exactly, man. Come on. Like, you cannot just ban the whole cartoon because some people were saying he looks like him. I'm going to get back to the NBA in a minute

because it is a... I mean, I like it. I find it appalling, actually. I appreciate the sport, and I have some friends who are season ticket holders. And some of the... them, you know, I had heated conversations with the last time I talked to you. And they listened to the podcast and I'm like, that was compelling. And then I said, uh, and then you went back to your season

tickets, didn't you? Well, yeah, we're still going to watch. Very, very, very, very, very difficult to get people to change that kind of behavior on this level. But look, I wanted to talk to you in person about all of this because two things have happened since I talked to you last. The first is a guy I sat right where you're sitting named Jan Yekyllic, who writes for the Epac Times. And he and I had a long conversation about organ harvesting. Yeah. Which, I don't know how much you know about that. Some.

But they're talking about an eight or a $10 billion market. We were made a shoes out of organ harvesting. Yeah. Say that again? We even made a shoe that will expose all the organ harvesting. Oh, God. I thought you said you made a shoe out of organs that were harvesting. I'm like, that's a, that's a, no, no, no, I want to show you.

That's a bridge too far right there. No, no, no, I want to actually show you. You can't lace that up. I want to show you actually the shoe. It's actually pretty crazy. Let me see if I can pull this up. Do do do do do do do do. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources?

If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves a million times over by helping countless employers

get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before. And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most qualified candidates first. This is a huge time saver, hours and hours of save time. And it helps people like me find the people who can function in a non-traditional work environment like MicroWorks. In other words, ZipRecruiter works for me, and they'll probably work for you too.

Post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash row. And watch what happens. Odds are you'll find a human resource that just happens to be a great fit for your company in 24 hours or less. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hire. Yeah, I'll find it because I want to send it to my friend Jan

because he's been, this is it, and you mentioned them in passing, but the Fulang Gong, yeah. Fulangangang, yeah. Right? There you go. This is right here. If you look at the Oregon Harvesting Shoes. So I really wanted to expose the whole thing.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. So, like, I literally were this in an NBA game. Yeah. Oh, man, there's no way I'm going to be able to show this to the camera. I found it on Instagram. I'm putting it up this guy here. There it is.

Let's see. I told you I was going to go all out there, right? Dude, you are a jagged little pill. So I was like, let's just expose the whole part. I was like, let's just expose the whole system, man. What size shoe is that? Oh, these are like 17s. What do you wear?

You wear a 17th? And the crazy thing is these are not even basketball shoes. It's his shoe, Mike. Well, I'm just saying that if it were my shoe, there'd be room for stop org. He's got room. Like, it really is a billboard. It is like a NASCAR. So these are not even basketball shoes.

These are like, you know, converse, like some type of like, these are like walking shoes out there. And I was like so afraid that I'm going to wear their shoes and roll my ankle in them. So these are not like true basketball shoes. Like you walk with those shoes out there. I'd wear those. Yeah. So this is... Can I get a pair of those? Of course, yeah.

Like, where do I go? Where do I order a pair of those? So we have to make one. Custom? Yeah. Well, I'm going to need two, actually. Otherwise, I'm lipping around with my right foot, with an important message and a hush puppy on my other one. The other one was about, if you can pull it up.

The other one was about the surveillance cameras. Oh. It was about to have Chinese government use surveillance cameras to just track people. Well, that's important to me, too. but it's also interesting that it was a camera and a shoe combined that really brought you to where you are. It's attention being paid and people reacting as to react. You just forced people to, you put them in a really inconvenient spot.

It's billions and billions of dollars. And I'll just say it, man. I mean, how else can you spend this? The NBA made a financial decision that. that had absolutely nothing to do with principle. I was having this hearing in D.C. And all these congressmen and people are asking me a lot of tough questions.

Both sides, Democrats and Republicans, like I asked them, like at the end of our hearing, I asked him one simple question. I was like, listen, how can a dictatorship can control a 100% American-made organization like MBA and fire a U.S. citizen? they all looked at each other and they said we have no answer.

And then they looked at their shoes because that's what people do. Yeah. But they don't know where else to look. I mean, listen, until this day, I don't talk about politics. I can probably say that, like, listen, if human rights is above politics. I don't care which side do you vote for, whoever party you cheer for or whoever congressman or senator you support. Like, you have to care about human rights, you know. and I'm so happy that my message never changed.

No one can spin my message and say, well, he's doing this because of that. I really care about people, man, because I think that the one thing that our world is missing is empathy. While we are comfortably living in this country and playing basketball, making millions, and eating the most delicious food and sleeping in the most warmest bed, on the other side of the world, people are losing their loved ones, losing their lives, and losing their homes. So that's why, I mean, I would just wish that more athletes, because they play a very important role in our society, I wish they just more athletes stand up for what they believe in it. Well, in their defense, Ennis, it's only the hardest thing in the world. It's only the hardest thing in the world.

And the fact that, I mean, I know it must have been difficult for you, but I just, I don't know how else to say it. It's just overwhelming for people to do that. Look, it's one thing to say a thing. It's another thing to say it and then say, I mean it. In fact, I'll raise my hand and take an oath. In fact, I'll make a pledge to God and my family. But then you really turn the screws. And then you start to see where the courage of the convictions is.

And what did you sacrifice? A career? Check. Millions of dollars personally. Check. Your family. Check. Your friends.

Check. So what else can they take? The thing is, say someone like LeBron, someone like Kevin Dren, someone like Stefan Kerry, or all these athletes who's been signed with Knight here or whoever, right? If they say, like, stop the slave labor, right, to Knight here or whoever, they will stop it. If all these, like players get together and actually, like, started to, like, become a movement, Like, my voice is only one, right? But think about if Kevin Dren, Stephen Curry, or LeBron James, or like, these people started to join.

I don't want to say I want to educate them because they already know the conversations that are happening. They already know that they should be made by slave kids back in China. It all matters to, like, if they're going to stand for what they believe in them. And, you know, many of them came out and said, you know, we are more than athletes. but then you pick and choose. Do you have security? I do. In America, I mean, I am touched with FBI,

but when I go outside of America. Like you showed up here by yourself. Would you drive yourself here? Oh, no, downstairs. I have people. You have somebody downstairs. Okay. I have people downstairs, yeah.

Look, man, I'm trying to do two things now, just as a human being who's been walking around for 60-some years. I'm trying to put myself in your place and I'm trying to put myself on LeBron James place. And I'm trying to put myself in Stefan Curry's place. And what you just did, you literally just called them out right here. You literally are just saying, if you could take half a dozen of the creme de la crem NBA players and come together, literally sit down right here, cameras

anywhere and just say, we're sitting here united with one goal to make this. stop. And we're not going to play until you stop it. I mean, you put it out there. I'm articulating it, and I'm just really wondering at what point do one of those, like, what would it take? If you could pick one of them to stand right next to you and say everything that you've just said, who would it be? I think like someone like LeBron, right? I mean, he's the face of the league, and he was the one person that during like 2020 when all the protests were happening, I mean, like he was the like, I guess like the biggest name in sports that came out and said, okay, this is wrong, this is right, this is that, this is this, right? So every player pretty much like an NBA looks up to him.

And like he just signed a one billion dollar contract with Nike. It's a lifetime contract, by the way. So like what else do you want? You know what I mean? You are LeBron James. Like what else do you want? And you have a chance to become like maybe I'm not saying as big as Muhammad Ali, but like, you know? Bigger. Maybe.

So. Think it just. Yeah. With the media now, with the social media and everything, like you could get bigger. But now like half of the country thinks you are a hypocrite because you are standing things that are happening in America because you know. know that is not going to affect your pocket. But Ennis, he's not looking at half the country, not that half. He's looking at the half that show up at every game, no matter what, who applaud.

He's looking at what he wants to see. Right. It's like, there's the elephant. I'm going to focus on the tusk. Never mind all the rest of it. But I get your point. Yeah. So obviously he's not the only name.

I'm just calling him out because, I mean, he is the face of the league steel at the age of like 40-41. So I just hope that like, like, I'm just saying like, put yourself in their shoes, put your kids in their shoes. If your mother, if your sister, if your daughter was on those concentration camps, get in torture every day, would you still pick money and business over your morals, values, and principles? Empathy, man. Empathy, you know? Yeah. Well, empathy follows awareness. Right. Typically.

Not always. but, you know, the ostrich syndrome is the thing, you know? Yeah, yeah. Once you, God, there's a, I forget who I was talking to this about, but the most compelling anti-war movie I've ever seen is called Come and See. Okay. They didn't watch it. I almost can't recommend it because it'll stick with you in a way that you probably don't.

But then again, here I am mentioning it. It's just a, the point is, I just took a tour of Dachau. I was in Germany and I felt I didn't really want to see it. If I'm being honest. It didn't feel like a great way to spend a cloudy day. But I'm so glad I did. It's like I didn't learn anything new,

but everything I thought I knew I saw. And when you're standing on a place, reading a plaque that's explaining specifically what happened, on the place where you're standing, okay. It's just another level. LeBron James didn't hang up on a nice Jewish girl 25 years ago who invited him to a dinner. He didn't have a mother who said, right, wait to hate him until you meet him. Yeah.

He didn't have your past. You didn't have his and so forth and so on. But I just find it so extraordinary. to like all these guys are just living their lives and then this kid comes over from Turkey and puts on a pair of inconvenient shoes and now they're being called out. And look, I told you there were two things.

The first thing since I talked to you last was the Oregon Harvesting Thing. The other thing was October 7th. Yeah. In fact, I think you and I probably talked right before that. We did, yeah, pretty much, yeah. So, I mean, given all of this, and I know you don't get,

but you kind of open the door. Where are you with what's going on over there now? So here's what I look at it. I have so many Jewish friends. I have so many Muslim friends. And obviously after October 7, both I reached out and we had a lot of like conversations together. This is what I focus on. The innocent people, obviously as a Muslim, of course I support my Palestinian brothers and sisters. But the same time, there are thousands of innocent people, kids, whatever, civilian, mothers, fathers are being killed on the Israeli side as well. You know? And when I say this, people go crazy. It's like, no, no, no, you have to pick a side.

Like, I don't get into politics. People behind the table are the one that given the orders, but the innocent people on the streets are the one that gets hurt. So what happened in October 7 was one of the most disgusting things that happened. And after that, I started to research, but this is what I found out actually. So our prophet, a prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, had war rules. Like when we go to war, he said we have rules. And I looked at the rules rules, right?

He said, when we go to war, we are not allowed to kill babies. We're not allowed to kill women. We are not allowed to kill elderly. We are not even allowed to kill animals or cut down trees. If someone is running, you cannot go after him and kill it. We're not allowed to knock down the holy areas like mosques or synagogues or temples or church. We're not allowed to kill a priest or a rabbi. So if any group or if anyone goes against what our prophet said, he does not represent true Islam.

So what Hamas did that day does not represent true Islam. I just want to get it out there. And you know what? All the rules and everything out there is actually on the internet. So you can actually go and look at it. There's some rules on the other side too, right? The Ten Commandments. Everybody's got a playbook.

Even the NBA. There's a playbook for you. That's why I'm like, yeah, exactly. So that's why I'm like, I try to focus on the kids and the innocent people. Like when I, we just talked about it, when I went to Jerusalem, when I brought the Israeli kids and Palestinian kids together, right? I remember like the first day the Palestinians were staying in one half court

and Israel was on the other court forget about passing a bowl to each other they were not even like shaking or they were not even looking at each other and I like started to put them in the same team they were not passing the balls whatever and then after a while because those are just kids after a while

you know they started to like talk have conversations and I remember like when I put myself in in the same team with a Jewish kid and a Palestinian girl. I got a rebound. I passed the ball to this Jewish kid. He crossed someone over. He passed the ball to this Palestinian girl and she scored the ball. While she was coming back, they high-five each other. I'm like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, this is what we need, you know? And then after two weeks,

be like, you started to like, they started to hug each other, they started to exchange numbers, they started to like follow each other on Instagram. I'm like, this is what we need the most in life, man, because everybody has their right and wrong. You ask the Palestinian side, they have rights, and you ask the Israeli side, they have rights, whatever. But, like, as an activist, and as a Muslim activist, of course I care about my Palestinian brothers and sisters and what's happened over there is terrible as well. But the same time, man, I have to care about those innocent people on Israeli side, too. My guest today, Tom Albinis, is an American giant, and I'll tell you why. Tom, Tom.

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that you can be proud to support. Use code Mike. Get 20% off your order at American-giant.com slash Mike. American Giant, American Made. It's really the most beautiful thing about sport. The idea that when people who don't agree on much come together to high five a great no look pass. I mean, it's like that's a great thing.

It's a small thing, right? It's a high five. That's it. That's all I needed, man. But a shoe is a small thing too. Maybe there are no small things, as I say to a seven. How tall are you exactly? With true zone, I'm close to seven foot.

I say seven foot easier to say. Who do you admire? Who do you admire in the wide world of sports more than anyone and why? I will pick, I think, Muhammad Ali, because what he did not only on the ring but off the ring was just... You realize how despised he was? Yeah, at one point, yeah. 69, 70, 71.

And then he became a legend after that. Do you ask anyone now that what he did? on and off the ring was just unbelievable. How do you sum up that? Was it sacrifice? Was it standing for a thing? Was it being unpopular, willing to be hated? I think the sacrifice, not only talking about the money

or I'm not only talking about like career wise because everybody can go out there and speak up things that are most mattered to themselves. But once the money or the family, or the career got involved, many people say like, okay, you know, that's where I just draw the line and say enough. But I respect people who goes beyond and actually make some sacrifices for what they believe in in. That's where I still respect people. It's all about hypocrisy, you know. I'll give you the best example. Colin Kaepernick was my really good friend. When

I was having all this, you know, fights against, you know, the Turkish government, me and him sit down and had a lot of conversations about, like, what can I do to fight harder. Did you know each other prior to that? Or did he reach out? No, we were messaging. He followed me on Twitter. I followed him back and we were just messaging. And finally, we met in New York. He was giving me a lot of ideas about how I should fight and bring even more awareness. The day I started to criticize Nike. I never heard from him ever again. So that shattered my heart because this guy used to send his, like once a month, he used to send me gifts. I still have his jerseys. I still have his jerseys in my house. You can pull it up too. I mean, it's on Google.

Like if you put Dennis Kenner, Colin Kaepernick, our picture will come up. But I just thought that, you know, he will. stand with me and I'm like, well, I finally have a friend that who made pretty much like a similar sacrifice. And the day I started to criticize Nike, I never heard from him ever again. I try to text him a couple times. I, you know, send him a message on social media, but that was it. This is sort of interesting. I'm going to send you a link to a story I wrote that was actually inspired by him. And it's called something to stand for. In fact, it was turned into a movie.

And I was struck. God, when was it? When did all the kneeling start? 2000, I guess, like, I'm trying to think, actually, 19, 20, maybe a little, maybe, like 17, 18 maybe even? I think so. Yeah? I think so. Because I was so torn.

I like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but it was such a strange thing to see, never mind Colin, but a stadium full of people so confused over whether to stand and sing or kneel and pray and just all everybody doing different things in an attempt to somehow express themselves, which is really not so different than writing some words on a shoe. Right. Right. This is the human condition. We feel something and we want to share it. We want the camera at us so more people can see it and whatever. But I think that it's the great struggle of our time. What will you stand for? And why will you do it? And when the going gets tough, will you stick or not? That's the important part. I mean, this isn't even comparable. It happens to me in a thousand different ways all of the time.

But once you say a thing, if I say, look, you know what I really want? I want the sponsors on this podcast to all make their products in America. That's what I want. And I do. But how much do I want it? Because there are a couple of sponsors here that make a terrific product, but it's not made in this country. Now, what do I do with that?

How do I think about that? Where do I draw the line? It's real easy for people to look at me and go, oh, well, you're bringing out. I guess you sold out, didn't you? Well, maybe I did. Maybe I didn't. Maybe my line is just drawn a little bit. differently. I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying that you mentioned the word hypocrisy.

Everybody is looking for the inconsistency in their hero, the fault and the star. Because we love to bring guys like LeBron down. We love that. We like to build them up. We like to bring them down. You're weird and super interesting because I don't know anybody who's who's sacrifice. Feist so much. So blah, blah, blah. Why did you write the book? And what do you want people to feel when they read it? Well, because I was just, I wanted to give something to the world because all these threats, all this thing, I wanted to, it was actually on internet. There was so much threats at one point. I wanted to do a life insurance. I called the company and said, listen, you have a very high percent chance of getting killed. We cannot give you a full

coverage. We can only give you a health coverage. So I literally have two different coverage now, half and a half because they didn't want to give me the full coverage because they said, well, I have a high percent chance of getting killed. But I had a conversation with the State Department. Some people from the State Department, they told me not to give their name. We sit down and had the craziest meeting. They told me that which government can use which tactics, to get me or bring me down. It was literally like when I walk into the room, there was like all the countries lined up one by one.

They said, China, I said you are 30 whatever years old. You're single. From now on, you'll be getting text messages, calls, DMs, WhatsApp messages from one of the most beautiful girls in the world. Do not answer any of them, they're Chinese spies. They said, you will be stopping on a light, and a car will be coming and, hitting you in the back and then the girl will come out be 10 out of 10 and we'll exchange numbers

and then boom you'll become their slave watch out from for the last two three years that that got into my head so bad i have not answered any girls i don't know what their motive is you know are they out there to get me or they really like me because of me uh second one was russia they said not in america but we talk a lot about like the russian issues too with like gyr cuspur or bill brother they said not in America but outside of America, they will follow you and they will try to poison you. They said Iran, they don't play with girls or poisons. They will come and shoot you. North Korea, they said they will try to hack you. Turkey, they will try to kidnap you. So all this threats were happening, right? And I had so many other conversation with FBI

and they were just giving me so many different threats that I have been receiving from many different ways. But if ever something happened to me, I wanted to just give something to the world this book why i did it literally this is like like why i did it why i sacrificed my family which which people calls me crazy they said dude shut up you've been you have not seen your family for 11 years just shut your mouth and just so they'll be okay you know or just make 30 40 million more dollars and live the best life or just play basketball i play another five six years you're still young you're 29, 30 years old. This book talks about why I did it, why I sacrificed my family, my career, tens of millions of dollars, and give everything I had, you know. Regrets?

No regrets. The only thing that I just wish I played a little longer because when I changed my last name of the freedom, I became a citizen, I changed my last name to freedom, I wanted to make that word part of me carried everywhere I go. So I was putting that word behind my jersey in every arena I go to. I remember all the kids were chanting freedom. You know?

In America, like, you can take your freedom for granted, like my teammates. I remember when we had this conversation with my teammates, they were destroying America. They're like, oh, my God, America is terrible and horrible. I remember I walk in the locker room, I'm like, guys, listen, our season is about to be over. And whenever our season over, let's go to like some of the countries out there like Iran, China, Russia, Turkey, North Korea.

And you guys will see like the real dictatorships. Like they have no idea. So that's why I want, I wish I played a little longer. So I want, because I wanted all the kids, all the young generation out there to just to learn about the true meaning of freedom. What would you do if some team invited you to play again? I'm still, listen, I'm still healthy. I'm still 33 years old, young. I can still, you know, get a double-double, I believe, you know.

And now, like, the league is getting softer and softer every day, man. All the big men just wanted to pick and pop and shoot the ball. No one wants to do the dirty work. No one care about rebounds or whatever, or back-to-basket plays. But I will definitely discuss with my people. But what I care about is just not the most. money, not the fame, or not anything, to inspire the next generation. So if playing basketball is the reason that I can inspire the next generation, sure, I'll play. But if not, then the NBA

hurt me so much with their hypocrisy. I don't even ever want to watch NBA game. Your family, do you think you'll see them again? You know what's so amazing? Right before I, when I got my Green Court. I was doing this big show and this lady said, you know, you don't have to wait five years. If you're married with an American woman, it's only three years. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. The next day, I got so much DM from all over the country. I bet you did. All over the country, right? Obviously, I waited. But so many Americans now invited me to their home for Christmas, for Thanksgiving, for Shabbat dinners. I remember, I used to, you know, you know, wake up every morning.

I used to pray to God. And I was like, God, please let me see my family one more time. But whenever I go around and America is treating me like one of their family members, when they treat me like I'm their son, right? They invite me to like Shabbat dinners, Thanksgiving dinners. To them, I'm just another guest, but to me, it's another family. I realize that God has given me a huge family and it's America. Am I ever going to get to see my family ever again?

I have no idea. My mom is getting old. My dad is getting old. I don't even know what their face looked like. My brother sends me a picture of them sometimes. He plays basketball outside of Turkey and America. But like I have no idea like what they even look like now. But I know that deep down they're proud.

They cannot say that they're proud because that is an act of terrorism to support me, but I know deep down that they are proud. They've been through a lot. They got fired. They've thrown in jails. My mom got spit on her face. Once you go to the supermarket, my dad got kicked out of a mask recently, but I know deep down that they are proud of their son.

And I don't know you well enough to be proud of you, but I admire you in the same way. When I think about the guys who signed the. Declaration of Independence and how many of them had so much to lose. You know, they were the 1% once upon a time. They risked everything and many of them lost everything, you know. And so the ball's on you to do this. Appreciate it. And I guess the final thought is, you know, all of the things that you're trying to impact are enormous.

All of the ways you've attempted to do that are tiny. A dinner. A phrase. A shoe. Micro macro. Right? Big little. Yeah.

Without sacrifice, there is no freedom. And I hope that I can pass this message or torch to a next generation. Because if no America, China is next. And I don't want to see. a world that is being run by the Chinese dictatorship. We would not want to be living in it. I'm serious about those shoes. I'll buy a pair.

Of course. The book is called, In the Name of Freedom, this is the galley. The actual copy is available in stores right now. For the record. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah.

This is not the actual copy. And as Freedom succumbed to an old trick that I did when I wrote a book, you get the cover done first. By FedEx. Right. And then the book's not ready, so you need to go out and show people the book. So I picked this up and I started looking through it.

I'm like, man, this guy is so much to say. Well, this is Jordan Peterson's book with his cover on it. It's just a prop. Jordan Peterson, don't hate me, please. Jordan Peterson. You know what, Jordan, I'm going to conclude with two messages. The first is to Jordan Peterson. Call me.

You got to come on this podcast at some point and buy End his Freedom's book. It's great. And my guess is if you ask him nice, he'll send you this one since it's actually your book, too. And secondly, with great respect, LeBron, Stefan. Yeah. He's doing a hard thing. No pressure. But, you know, everybody's watching.

Thanks. Thank you for having me, man. Anytime. If you like what you heard. And even if you don't. Won't you please? Won't you please please please? Please cry.

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