The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 454: Amie Ichikawa—You Can't Bring a Vagina to a Penis Fight

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Mike sits down with Amie Ichikawa—former inmate, prison reform advocate, and founder of Woman II Woman, an organization dedicated to protecting the rights and dignity of incarcerated women. Amie shares her firsthand experience in the California prison system, the disturbing reality of fully intact men being housed in women's prisons, and the silence surrounding it. Now on the outside, she's using her voice to protect those still inside. It's a raw conversation about justice, safety, and speaking up for women who have been denied a voice.

Hello, friends. Mike Rowe here, it's the way I heard it. And as many of you know, the guests on this podcast oftentimes wind up choosing the title just because they've said something pithy and memorable. And this one, Chuck, I don't know. I mean, certainly top five, maybe top three, maybe the top one, maybe. Well, I mean, maybe. I'll just tell you this. As soon as I heard it, I wrote it down and that was it. It was like, you know, we both looked at each other. it kind of went, oh. Yeah, it's going to be tough to top that. I wouldn't be shocked to see this on a t-shirt at some point, but for the record, we're calling it, you can't bring a vagina to a penis fight. That's a direct quote from our guest, Amy Ichikaba,

who could be introduced in any number of ways, but given the blowback that I've been enjoying for the last week after our Peyton McNabb interview, man, I thought we were kind of past this. I thought we had turned a corner and that most people had just, kind of given up on the idea that pushing male and females together in various scenarios was, in fact, bad juju.

But it seems that some people are still clinging on pretty tight. Yeah, and to be clear, nobody cares if you want to change your sex, if you're an adult, if you want to dress a certain way, if you want to, you know, even alter your body or your shape. But nobody cares about that. What we care about is competing in women's sports. And, you know, men being in women's prisons, which Amy speaks to. That's what's really important.

And we should all agree on. Yeah. I thought Amy would be worth listening to. I almost said worth talking to. But honestly, she doesn't need to be talked to. She needs to be listened to. And I met her in the state capital in Texas a few months ago. Where I met Peyton McNabb as well, the women's forum was there.

And they were making the rounds talking about what's happening in California. And Amy is coming from a place where she believes that women are trying to be erased and that the presence of men in prisons is not only deliberate, but part of a project, an experiment, really. And I think she feels very much like a canary in the coal mine. And the more I listened to her, the more I kind of waffled from going, boy, you know, is how much of this is she a man? imagining how much of this is conspiracy stuff. And then ultimately coming to, you know what? I don't think any of it is. I don't think she's living her truth.

I think she lived the truth. And now I think she's trying to share it. Yeah. And she's trying to make a difference in her community. She's really fighting for women, women's rights. And I think this is very similar to the Peyton McNabb episode. And I know that a lot of women reacted to the Peyton McNabb episode in a positive way saying, you know, thank you so much for doing this. You're going to feel the same way after you

listen to Amy Ichikawa. It's not just the women, Chuck. Like I went through, I got thousands of comments simply because I shared the episode. And most of them were men. And sure, there's some people who disagree reflexively with anything that's, you know, anti-trans. But this isn't anti-trans. This isn't even political. This is just an appeal to be true to some sense of science and biology and logic and common sense. You know, my question, like the reason to have Peyton on, and I think the reason to double down now with Amy is because we're going to look back and we're going to wonder what kind of spell we were put under. And this isn't going to be a torture for people. And, people who were dug in firmly on one side of the other. It's going to be a torture for people who

sat quietly and listened to the arguments that there was no difference between H. Sapien with a penis and H. Sapien with a vagina. And how many people just kind of nodded their heads and said, well, okay, I really don't want to get involved. We're going to look back on that and we're going to clutch our pearls anew. And that's what I took from the comments after the last episode. And if I were a betting man, I'd say we're about to seem more of the same. But I'm not a betting man. So I'm simply going to introduce you to Amy Ichikawa with these words of wisdom that will no doubt haunt you for days and weeks and months to come. You can't bring a vagina to a penis fight, especially in prison. True dat.

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Do people still say, in the house? I think so. I don't know. I don't go out very much. I don't go anywhere, so. Well, you're in the house. Amy Hitchell is always in the house. That's correct.

Some sort of house. Oh, God, there's probably a big house pun in here somewhere. Is it too soon? No, not at all. Oh, boy. So earlier, I had a chat with Peyton McNabb, who I finally met in the capital of Texas, where I met you on that same day. And I was rushing around like crazy. And all I had a chance to do was shake your hand.

And you muttered something about, yeah, you muttered and said, oh, dirty jobs and something. And then I had to kind of triangulate to understand what you and Riley Gaines. and Peyton McNabb and all those other women had in common. And now I think I know, but since you're sitting here, why don't you just tell me? Well, we're all ladies. Yes, you are. And I think it's very important that we all know each other and work together

because it really reflects that this agenda is coming for all of us from AYSO to Death Row. What's AYSO? Girl Soccer. From, you know, the volleyball court to Death Row, they're coming for us. there's no sector of womankind that is exempt from the erasure that they're pressing on us. And there's so many other things going on in the world. This is not getting the attention it needs because we're like 50% of the population.

I think you're more than that, actually. 51. That's what I've heard. They're everywhere, women. Everywhere. Everywhere. And I mean, it's. When I fully understood, after I met the girls, that the same evil that celebrates housing fully intact men who are registered sex offenders in women's prisons, that's the same evil that thinks it's appropriate for them to have to change their swimsuits or in front of boys.

Well, your story is so extraordinary. And I'm going to ask you to tell it again. forgive me, I'm sure you're probably sick of doing it. But it's important for people to understand where you've come from and what your journey is, because really I didn't know. A lot of you could fill a book with what I don't know. But I know Riley, and now I know Peyton, and now I understand what the independent women's form is doing in and around this issue with women's sports.

But to your point, it goes so far beyond that. And your experience with it was in which prison? Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla. Where's Chowchilla? Nowhere. It's in Madera by Modesto kind of. Yeah. It's in the Central Valley.

Lovely place. No, it's hot. It's hot. It's hot. I think the day I got off the bus, it was 115 degrees. This would be the classic grayish bus that takes you to prison. Yes, with no windows. And the bus door open.

after, you know, that three, four-hour drive. And the hot wind came in, and I was like, oh. You're not in cancer. I'm in hell. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Where'd you grow up?

Torrance. You know, L.A. County, Beach City. And I didn't venture very far. I think Chowchell is the farthest I've really ever lived. I'm an only child. My dad's the retired L.A. County Sheriff. My mom was a church lady. and, you know, I thought I had a normal, happy childhood until I started to rebel and really just sought validation and destructive relationships and got on drugs.

And you found them? I did. You found that destructive relationship? The most. You found the drugs. And you're how old at this point when you realized things are starting a spiral? I was 24 years old, and I had an apartment. I had two cars.

I thought it was doing okay. And then I met this guy. Oh, boy. Which is, you know, very commonplace. Every woman I ever met in prison met some guy. Or so there was this man. And within six months of meeting this person, I was in a humongous amount of debt and looking at 25 to life. Oh, 25 to life.

Amy, what'd you do? There's, you know, I was selling drugs on the weekends, not to minimize it, but that's what I was doing at the time. I also had my dream job. I worked with adults with developmental differences in traumatic brain injuries, but that wasn't really cutting the mustard. So I decided to supplement my income. And in the middle of that, I met this guy. And, you know, it was very small time. I wasn't trying to make a career out of this. And he convinced me to dabble in a variety of, you know, street pharmaceuticals that I didn't want to deal with. And this person decided one evening we were going to kidnap someone at gunpoint that owed $20. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Oh, how old are you at this point? I was 24. I had, I think the day we got picked up, I had just turned 25, maybe. But I was 24, 25. That holds the guy? Actually, much younger. It was 20. And I didn't know.

I thought this person was older. So somebody owes you guys money over a drug deal? And I was like, hey, I got to go to work in the morning. You know, I got to go to work tomorrow. It's not a big deal. It's $20. And by then it was too late. Poor girl was in the back of the car already.

And, you know, I was driving. And the firearm was tossed over the top of the car to me. And we drove around for a long time. So long that, you know, I didn't know where we were at some point. And it started to get dark because when we picked this young lady up or when we kidnapped her at gunpoint, it was still light out. So it got dark. And we were in an alley.

And they looked in the river mirror. and I thought it looked like, you know, she was going to get killed. So I ran out and I said, it's time to go home. So your boyfriend is out there with her trying to get the money out of her? And it's going horribly wrong? Horribly wrong. But, you know, God intervenes in really incredible ways all the time. And gun misfired and we were able to go home after.

that. He tried to shoot her. And it just didn't work out that way. And then, you know, we took her back to, you know, not far from where we kidnapped her from. And there was already, you know, an APB out for us. And I think multiple people had already called the police. So we dropped her off. I had to beat her up. I beat her up. And I'm like, I'm sorry. And she said, said, it's okay, I'll see you tomorrow. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so awkward. How do you mean you're going to see her tomorrow? She wanted to pay. Oh, oh, my gosh. I said, I think that means you're paid up at this point, right?

So she hands me some, her jewelry, and I'm just like, this is surreal at this point. I still am not understanding the weight of what just transpired. And not long after that, the entire police department came and got us. Now, wait a minute. Your dad's a sheriff? Yes, and he was still active duty at this point. And he had worked in as a bailiff in the courthouse that I was in for, I think, like maybe 11, a lot of years.

He was there for a long time. So I knew a lot of the sheriffs that were working lockup in there. And they were like, what do you do? doing here? I haven't seen you since you were four years old. I was like, I don't know. So they book you? They booked. Well, before they booked me, they interrogated us for a long time. And they had my phone. And they saw a picture of my dad in uniform, me and my dad. And the detective said, I know this guy. I know this guy. You're never going to see him again. And I was like, why? Or are you serious?

And he said, you're never going to see him again. And I said, or what do I have to say? And I told on myself because I was freaking out, like, what am I, I'm not going to see my dad again? I said, okay, I beat her up. Can I, I have to go to work now? Can I go to work? Just totally disconnected. You have no idea what you're into. Absolutely.

Now your boyfriend's next door, he's probably being interrogated as well. Interrogated, telling them he had never met me before or anything. Oh. And they told me, they came back and said, hey, this guy doesn't know you. I said, well, are you sure? They were like, he doesn't know you, just roll. And I said, well, I can't do that. So I said, I beat her up.

She owed me $20. So then they said, well, here's your charges. And it was this long, incredibly long list, kidnapping for ransom, false imprisonment with intent to torture, bringing narcotics into a facility because I thought I was leaving. You know, I didn't think, I thought, okay, this is assault. this is assault and battery, but I didn't see that really coming. And I still, the weight of the situation hadn't hit me at all. You literally think you're going home after this.

But they keep you on the lockup, and now they tell you you need a lawyer? Well, my dad came to see me in the morning, and he said, you told on yourself? I said, well, yeah. I said after years of watching, you know, the first 48 law and order, cops together for years, you told on yourself, I said, they said, I was never going to see you again. And he was like, oh, my gosh. So at that point, they don't want to get me a lawyer. What are they going to get me a lawyer for?

I told them myself. So I had a very nice public defender who really wanted me to just tell so I could leave. but... Well, it doesn't work that way. Yeah, and I figured, you know, I'm just not, I can't, I'm not going to do that. So what was the sentence for? After everything was reduced, the final charges were terrorist threats and the use of a firearm. So a gun enhancement of three years and two years for terrorist threats, which are now criminal threats because terrorist is too mean of a word to use in California.

When did that happen, I wonder. I don't know. I just, you know, looked myself up and was like, wow, this has been reduced. So you're no longer a terrorist, now you're just a criminal. Yes. Well, congratulations. So what is that? That's five years then? Five years with 85%. So I did four years and nine months. But you didn't know that when you went in?

No, I, well, the, I mean. I mean 85% is what for good behavior? Well, yeah. That's like your earliest. possible release if you don't screw up. Okay. So now you're on the bus and they're taking in handcuffs, leg irons. How does all this work? Shackles. Basically, what I want to get at here is what life is like in a women's prison. Well, are you sick of it yet?

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It's sweet.com. It's definitely not what you would expect. It's not like TV. When you catch the chain, that's when you go upstate. They shackle you all together in waist chains and leg irons. And I always had my hands cuffed with a lockbox on it. And, you know, there were people that were like, don't worry, you're going to be fine. You're going to be fine.

It's not that bad. It's going to be okay. And this is during the time in the L.E. County Jail where there was a lot of really crazy stuff going on. There was a humongous lawsuit for unlawful strip searches. So I had just come from that. I remember this. What year were we talking about that? 2009.

Right. Yeah, they were just basically hosing people down. Mm-hmm. You know, stripping everybody out outside in groups of 50 in front of, you know, mail staff and it was excessive since I was in I was in protective custody because my dad was still active duty so I would have to strip out every step of the way multiple times before I finally got to court or finally upstate I didn't know any different because I'd never been arrested before so I just thought it was always invasive and frequent but nothing really compares to a state-issued

strip search you get there and they make you take your clothes off and you know you're in a cinder block room with 10 or nine other women that you've never meant before and you've got to lift everything up and spread everything and if they're not satisfied they'll bring a mirror and put a mirror under you this is because people are bringing contraband inside their body yes and i mean i understand that now I really didn't understand what was going on. It was so shocking and dehumanizing. I was like, wow, this is... So these are men?

No, these are women. We're all women. So it's all female guards? At this point, yes. Okay. And then they give you a little mumo, a blue polka-dodd mumo, and some flip-lops, and a cup, and a spoon, and a lock. And you're supposed to bring all that back when you parole. and then they give you your number.

So you have no name. You have no, everything feminine that you can have is stripped. You don't smell good. You don't have any makeup. And it's hard to wrap my mind around this now because if you're a man who identifies as a woman, you get access to all those things. So it's very frustrating because I was there.

You don't feel like a woman. anymore. You're just a number. You're dollar now. You're not human, I'm sure. So privacy's gone. Absolutely. Dignity, pretty much gone. What's the cell block look like? Actually, that's a great question, because in CCWF, which is the second largest women's prison in America, there are eight-man cells. This is an eight-person cell that was originally designed for four people. It has two sinks, a shower, a toilet, and four bunk areas. It used to just be four beds,

And then when the overcrowding started, they put bunk beds. They just doubled them up, bunk beds. So you've got eight women in a room with, what, I'm guessing, a couple sinks? Two sinks, yeah. Two sinks, the shower and the toilet, and you share about six feet of space in your bunk area. And that's hard with women, so I can't imagine what it's like to share with somebody who's coming from the killing fields of men's prison. And I don't get it.

Remember your first night? Yes. I remember. It was a Friday. And I was so excited because there was grass. I was outside. And we had artificial crab for dinner. And I was like, wow.

This is awesome. Wow. And then, you know, I got into my cell. And at this point in receiving, there are two-man cells. It looks like a real prince. And I just, the door is locked, and I was like, wow, what did you do? And then I saw all these people. I had never seen, I was like, that looks like a little kid.

How, where are they putting children here? What's going on here? There was just so many things I wanted to know about. Why does the water smell like poison? What's going? Well, this is, there were so many things that I just started clocking. I told my parents, I need Aaron Brockovich's address immediately. Something's wrong with the water here.

And sure enough, that was the year people started getting legionnaires. And I mean, I know now, but the arsenic levels are about 2,000, 29 times higher parts per billion than medically recommended. There's hexavalent chromium. There's maganese. I mean, as soon as I got there, I was like, this water doesn't smell right. So what about the kids? you said you could have. Oh, they were just young women, young 18-year-olds that were all coming in with life.

But they looked like children. I was like, I didn't know this was for children, too. But they were 18. And there were quite a few during the time that I processed in. A lot of them are still there, but some of them have come home. It's good. But it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. It was very diverse, very, very.

very interesting to be around all ladies. There were some things that weren't terrible. I mean, the whole experience wasn't awful all around. I would have stayed longer. I probably should have stayed longer. I could have used a little bit more time. Explain. I just learned so much about how important the responsibility of being a woman is.

It's a big deal. I didn't know how dangerous, how different it is. because I'd been sheltered so much. I get there and I'm like, wow, you've had a hard life. This is crazy. Your parents did what to you? I was just fascinated with the hurt and just how awful a lot of these people's lives were. And I was like, how could they make you go to prison for this?

This is crazy. This is illegal. We should call the ACLU. And then I learned how to stop hating myself. It took, you know, a big life or yelling at me every day telling me, telling me stuff like if a boy only calls you on payday he doesn't like you and it took almost five years of people really pounding that kind of stuff and while not physically pounding it well sometimes just telling me those kind of things that's how you know out of touch

I was I really needed like a crash course and how to not hate myself and how how the world doesn't revolve around me well you know what I was going to point it out earlier when you were just talking about how things went so sideways. You corrected yourself twice. We picked up the girl kidnapped her. I mean, you're calling a thing what it is, and maybe for a while there you weren't. Right, because I really didn't, I wasn't,

I feel like my eyes were closed, you know? I wasn't taking into consideration the impact my actions had on this lady. Like, she's probably really not okay. her whole family was traumatized. I mean, this was a big deal. This isn't normal behavior at all. And I'm sorry it took all of that for me to get to this point. But I know I'm supposed to be here, and this is what I'm supposed to do.

It's just unfortunate that there was so many horrible, you know, situations that led up to this. But I know it was important for me to go to prison. Do you feel that you were, what's that scene in Shell, Shank? You know, are you rehabilitated? I don't think rehabilitation ever reaches a level of completion. I think it's like an ongoing thing. Same with reacclimating or transitioning. It's permanent.

Like it's something that you have to maintain an upkeep. It doesn't completely go away. Like a lot of us that we're still in touch. We check ourselves all the time. Like we don't think like that anymore. No, you're right, we don't. What are men doing in women's prisons? They are living.

You know, people say how many am I in them? Like 45, like just 45? 45 men are in California of women's prisons? And they're in there because California still has a law, a bill? Yes. What do I mean? Is it 132? Yes, by my good buddy, Senator Scott Weiner.

Scott Weiner. The Weiner. He's very proud of this bill. and he authored it in I think 2019, worked on it for a while, and it began implementation in 2021. And that's around the same time that I started to develop my organization. What's it called? Woman to Woman, which was very controversial. You developed this in, why's it controversial?

You know, I was in cohorts with different organizations before I knew that the nonprofit industrial complex was a thing. I had no idea how much of a business nonprofit is. I'm working with these other orgs, these other people, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm going to go in this direction. I'm going to go ahead and not renew my contract and I'm going to work on something for women. And they said, what do you mean you're going to work on something for women? I said, well, I'm going to develop services that are specifically designed for women. We used to have those, remember? and they said, we don't even think that's legal.

And you're putting your life in grave danger. And I was like, oh, we don't, is that a threat? Because I know about that. We don't do that. So you're talking about like NGOs coming into prisons with various agendas being funded by who knows what. What are these agendas? And how does Scott Weiner have anything to do with this?

Well, he, I feel like prison is grounded. zero for like human experimentation, socioeconomic experimenting, because this is a microcosm of society. So if you're going to implement things that you want to take place nationwide, you're going to start in the prison because it's an easy place to conduct these kind of things under the radar because nobody cares. I understand because if you're not directly impacted by the system, this is not something you generally need to be concerned about. But this is what's, happening in there. They started doing this in prison because this is what they have planned for the free world. As you can see, it's already happening. Are you talking specifically about

the transgender thing? Yeah. And there's other things. I mean, there's a lot of medical testing that goes on in there. I mean, everybody's on semi-glutides in there. I mean, pretty expensive out here, but they're giving out those medications to everybody. What's a semi-glutite? OZMPIC, WICOV, they have full access to those things. And I always have this thought in the back of my head. If they're giving it away to incarcerated people in mass, it's probably because this is not good. Are they giving it away?

I mean, are you compelled to take it? Or are they just giving it to you and say, take this if you want? Well, they're definitely promoting it. Don't you want to get on this? Just the same as they do with the cross-sex hormones. they definitely encourage that. There's a lot of coercion that goes on there.

If you're, you know, a little stud, they tell you're not gay. You're just born in the wrong body. Take some testosterone. And, you know, a lot of people have issues. They're people pleasers or they just want to be affirmed. They want to be validated. And if a mental health clinician is telling you, you're doing a great job. you're going to eat it up.

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So there are 44, 45 men today in women's prisons. In California. In California. How many did you encounter when you were in? When I was there, just one, this was before. This was in 2011, I think. This individual was extradited from Texas. Texas to serve their life sentence in California for two rapes that they committed in a city not far from the prison.

It was a mother and daughter who were property owners and showing an apartment. And this person electrocuted them, tortured them during the assault. And when they finally got out of the observation period, when they came over, they went straight to the chairwoman. of the women's advisory council, now the inmate advisory council, and asked her, can you help get me a job in the electric shop? And, you know, that's pretty terrifying.

That's a great way to hurt people without ever touching him. So wait a minute. This is a guy. He rapes two women, and he's sent to prison, and he's in a male prison. Okay.

In Texas for another case. In Texas. How's he wind up in California in a female prison? isn't. Because he had another pending case in California, and then this person tried to mutilate themselves to, you know, convince the committees to reassign them as female, and it worked. You're saying tried to remove a bodily organ successfully? Partial. Partially, almost doesn't count, though, you know. It doesn't matter what kind of parts

you take off of a person, it doesn't change who they are. You could take everything off and you still are who you are. And it doesn't take mental part to really be assaultive. Just saying something, it sent shockwaves through the whole population. There was this somber, like, overwhelming feeling of just defeat. And people were crying, like, how could the governor let this happen to us? Doesn't he know? Does he know we're all rape survivors? How are they letting this happen? And this person brought

male prison politics with them. We don't have that in women's prison. There's no separation by security level, gang affiliation, race, nothing like that. That's interesting. Why? Women are just more familial? Yes. Women will make little pseudo-families. And it takes years to cultivate them, but you have them. There's a dad, there's a mom. That's what everybody does. And are these families, do they normally unfold inside the cell block itself with the same eight people that you're basically living with and showering with and sleeping with? A lot of times, yeah. Or sometimes you'll be across the hallway from each other or in the same unit.

It's not always healthy for friends to all live together. So it doesn't always work out. But when this stuff happened, there's aspects of the law that are completely unheard of in the carceral setting. These individuals who transfer are allowed to pick their room, pick their bunky. If they feel uncomfortable with anybody in the room, they can tell staff and say, I want to be by myself now, or I don't want these people in here, that's giving them the ability to wield power over the whole female population. I don't understand.

Why do they have this power? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They've created this narrative that they're so marginalized. It's kind of like a reward. But the way it was presented, people thought these rights were being reinstilled or reissued. Nobody has the right to do any of that in prison ever. So I was reading this bill like, what the heck? You can pick your own bunky.

Is this 132? Mm-hmm. Okay, so HR or HB? SB, Senate bill. 132 put forth by Scott Weiner, who I believe lives in San Francisco. Yes. Last I checked, that's why I know his name. So this bill allows this guy who's twice convicted of rape in Texas to be transferred to California to stand trial for something else.

He's found guilty of that. And at that point, he mutilates himself and decides he's a woman. I think that mutilation happened in Texas. In Texas. Okay. And this is before that law was implemented. So this was already on the rules and regulations case by case. They dealt with these things in a case-by-case situation.

So somehow they thought this was a good move. They allowed it to happen. It didn't work out very well. And he's transferred to Chilchilla? Mm-hmm. But he didn't last very long. The racial politics were a really big problem. Women aren't, you know, we don't have blacks watching TV over here and whites watching TV over here.

And it triggered a lot of people. And this person was attacked eventually and sent to the lower security prison, which is like the equivalent of a men's level. zero and they were, you know, escorted into the honor wing where they still currently reside with their girlfriend. This guy is a girlfriend? Mm-hmm. This girl has a guy or whatever? This, yes.

And the women who were involved in that situation, they're never going to let them live that down. The parole board's never going to let them live that down. And I felt really compelled to do what I do partially because I feel like that was a trauma response. These are all survivors of sexual assault and you put, you know, this same factor that caused their original traumas in a setting like that with them. It's going to freak them out. They're going to have issues. Are you painting with a, I mean, that's a broad brush, but when you say all? It's everybody. The ACLU did a study in, gosh, the early 2000s,

And it said 92% of incarcerated women in California have been battered or beaten. But everybody I met pretty much was, you know, a survivor. I didn't even realize it until, you know, I came home. I was like, wow, everybody is really messed up. Like, it's very unfortunate. There's, this is not healthy. This isn't allowing for any of these people to access

the one thing they're supposed to be able to access, which is rehabilitation. Not for the men either. This isn't normal for them. This isn't allowing them to rehabilitate or, you know, recover from their original traumas. This is just letting them sit in there and get worse. So did SB 132 officially pass? Oh, with flying colors. And it's still the law of California.

Mm-hmm. What else does it allow these 44 or 45 men and women's prisons to do? Well, they're pretty much above the law. You can't. It's really hard to discipline them for any kind of violations. Staff feel like they have their hands tied. They're afraid to tell them anything because they know they're all connected to high-power law firms. They're afraid of all the lawsuits.

It's created a really humongous, like, power imbalance. They're able to pick their jobs. They get free douche. Free douche? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, you mean there's a charge for...

For women? Yeah. You got to buy it on canteen. You know, just because you were born with one doesn't mean that you get to access things that are for your woman parts. to buy that. They also have access to different kind of health care, which I think is unreasonable. I mean, even being formally incarcerated, I feel like life-saving procedures, of course, but things that are elective, I don't think that's appropriate. Things like...

Face lift. Right. Nobody ever died from having a penis or vagina. Those are not deadly circumstances. But this is what's available now. Things, I mean, full body laser hair removal, face lifts, breast implants, Adams apple reduction. What else? Giving them rogain for male pattern baldness. These things,

are they available to the female population? But you have to pay for it? No. They're not available. No. I mean, there's women who've been there for decades who need to have their breast implants removed and replaced,

and their families are like, well, pay. You know, it's going to really ruin her self-esteem will pay for you to, you know, do this. No, absolutely not. No, it's, I don't know how how much more unfair and degrading this can get. Yes, I do. When they install the condom dispensers, that really did a number, because there's so many other moving parts to this. There's a big wave of staff sexual misconduct that's being exposed, and then you have the men moving in. So to install condom dispensers. And a women's prison. Yes. On Super Bowl Sunday, nobody comes to work on that day.

Nobody. But they have staff working overtime to install condom dispensers with rainbow condoms and flavored dental dams. Now, there's been women in that prison since it was built, and they never provided flavored dental dams. So I'm sure that was just to offset the ridiculousness of condom dispensers. But that's been on the books in California since 2000. When Rob Bonta, our Attorney General, was just a little assemblyman, he wrote a bill, I think, 999 or something, that said all state prisons must provide condoms by 2019. And there was only one Republican official who said, why would you put them in the women's prison? But Bonta was a hardliner on this and said every single prison must have these.

But they didn't put them in either of the women's prison. until the transfers started. That's insane. I mean, that's just... All right. So is this also in this SB 132? No, these are just all different horrible bills that have come together.

I mean, that wasn't horrible. I'm sure they're trying to mitigate the transmission of HIV and men's prisons, which is going to end up being a problem in women's prison now, too. What do people need to know about the day? reality of these men being in women's prisons? All these women were sentenced to prison.

They were sentenced to, you know, pay their debt back to society, and this, none of this was a part of a deal. This is the most oppressive. They can't talk about it. They can't complain about it. If they do, they're disciplined. They're transpophobic, and they have to move. You know, you can't refuse to room with one of these people.

There's nobody to talk to. If you want to go see a mental health clinician because you're having a really hard time, they're going to tell you something like, hey, you're being transphobic and I have to end our session because I don't feel safe anymore. Two women told me that. That's ridiculous. And they were complaining or trying to confide in somebody about a six-foot four Mexican mafia dropout who's got a really long body count because they were feeling afraid, but they couldn't express that. They can't tell the organizations that go in to help them because they get shut down. No, we're not talking about that. We're not talking about that because they all supported this. This is the NGOs you were talking about. They all fully supported this. And I was mad for years, but I'm not mad anymore.

Just get out of my way, you know? I'm not mad. So you did that. It helped you get funded. Okay. California's got so much money on the table. Get your money. But just let me fix this, please.

What, I mean, is this, it's not a secret, is it? Like, who are these NGOs? Where is this money coming from? Do do do do do do do do. Dumb. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I, I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves a million times over by helping countless employers get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before. And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most qualified candidates first.

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The smartest way to hire. I mean, Soros has a lot of, it all comes from a common purse. You know, like the Transgender Law Center in BLM, like they all have, you know, very similar donors, if not the same. They're all radicalizing these people. And then on top of that, there's now, you know, higher education that's available too. And, you know, that's a really, hot spot for indoctrination.

So they're getting like hit from every direction. I mean, people, women that are really strong women of faith call crying. And they're like, these teachers, these professors are trying to make me think that a cult is only called a cult because it's outside of Judeo-Christian normatives. And I'm like, dang, this is really, you have to worry about this too. but there's physical things that happen that it's a nightmare and it's the things that I knew would happen. Abusive relationships.

People say, well, why aren't you worried about, you know, same-sex abusive relationships? Well, because you can't bring a vagina to a penis fight you're going to lose every single time. There was a situation a couple years ago where the staff had to bring out, the investigative services unit had to bring out, shovels and cadaver dogs because they were looking for fetal remains and even though the search was unsubstantiated why would they even have to do that and these women are just you know looking out their windows like what the dogs are here what's going on what are they looking for obviously what you're saying is somebody was raped they became pregnant they aborted the pregnancy and then they buried the fetus or they were they delivered or she was in love

and then beaten until she lost it. But there's other, this is in an isolated situation, there's coerced abortions, there's babies that are being born. There's, I think next month the trial starts for an individual who was transferred back to men's prison last year because the Madeira County DA picked up to rape allegations. and this is the same person that I had been warning the prison about for months and months and months and months. But that person is not okay either.

That person had a really terrible childhood and never really had a chance, and the state facilitated these situations. Our elected officials need to be held accountable for this stuff. How do we do that? I don't know, because you can't, like, Zoom. as individuals. Have you ever met Scott Weena? Yes.

We actually had a good run-in. The first time I met him, I was hysterical. I don't know what happened. The Holy Spirit had me crying or something, but the Freedom Angels, these two moms that are freaking awesome, chased him down at the Capitol, and they were pulling me and running down the hallway. They said, Senator Weiner, we've got to introduce you to somebody. This is Amy Chikawa, and he was like, oh.

He knew you. And I said, it's so nice to finally meet you, sir. So I don't get it. You were... I don't know if I was exhausted or delusioned. I was out of my mind because I was telling myself, why are you being so weak? This is your nemesis, you know?

And I said, Senator, I just want to give you these letters from some women inside. And he was like, okay. And I said, here's my card. He said, I already have it on my desk. Don't waste it. I was like, okay, thank you. And then recently, he's on the public safety committee.

And I had a bill with Senator Shannon Grove that would have prohibited sex offenders from being able to transfer under this bill. And he just, he really didn't like it. What is his agenda? What is he hoping to accomplish with a bill like this? Well, there's, I think, you know, the prioritization of predators. Predator prioritization is a big one, making, like normalizing. sex offenses, it seems like, because there's been other bills that have passed that are definitely beneficial to sex offenders. And I think probably the abolition of the agent consent is on the table

because a lot of his bills are around parental control, your ability to be a participant in your own child's life and to make the state stronger parent in child's lives than their own parents. but with this whole SB 132 stuff, it just seems like there's a disconnect with the vulnerability of women. He's not getting it. And part of me thinks maybe he's been bamboozled. I'd like to give him that out, you know,

because the trans women in men's prison are like, where did he get his statistics and his information from? Because it's not coming from us. We don't want to go over there. We don't want to go over there because we know it sucks. We know that the staff,

are disrespectful, far more than they are over here. They know that the programming is better at men's prisons. There's more opportunities. They don't want to go over there. They have boyfriends. The heck do they want to go to the women's side for? But there's just this narrative that there's our delicate flowers that are being mishandled and tortured by everybody and misgendered at every waking minute.

And it's just destroying them. But the people I've spoken to in men's prison are not saying that. Like, these are people with, you know, nefarious intentions. These are people that can't be over here anymore because they have nowhere else to hide. So they're effectively turning women's prison into, like, men's protective custody overflow. And, I mean, there's even a situation where somebody saw another individual kill somebody on the cell block. And he testified against him in court, and staff recklessly housed him with, the murderer, and he was in grave danger. So he just said, I'm a woman, and started the paperwork to

transfer. And the transfer went through. Is it really that simple? All they have to do is just say, nope, this is, I've decided it. It was for the, you know, the first bus load, it seemed like. But they have, I think the Department of Corrections has done a real bang-up job on slowing this down as much as they can, because the law is, it's the law now. The law is the law. And they're, There's 211 pending transfer requests that are just waiting for the committee to evaluate them. They don't have like a really good guideline because the people that have transferred, 33.8% are registered sex offenders. There's somebody there who killed another man in men's prison.

I would think that would make you, you know, probably not a good move, but it went through. I mean, you would think you would lose all your privileges if you kill somebody else in prison. You think? You don't get to, you know, now pick your prison and your roommate and your bunky. But...

And maybe get that Adam's apple reduced. Yes, definitely. I mean, the full body laser hair removal, I was like, get out of here. I know a lot of bearded ladies that would really love to have that. I mean, that would be awesome, but no. So what were you doing in Texas?

Why were you in the Capitol? Oh, because Senator Trotsclair was putting a bill up to codify the definitions of man and woman, male and female, boy and girl to the Constitution in Texas. And, you know, Peyton and I were there to support her. And their sessions are really crazy, though. They only do legislation every two years. So they go to, like, way into the weave midnight hours. So I was trying to hang around to testify. but I was like, I don't have any more clothes.

I got to go. So I was sure to submit all my written testimony to all the committee members, and it passed. I mean, it's Texas. It passed, and it's awesome. They're the 17th state now that's adopted this language that is, you know, based off of IWF's model for biological definitions. They have to be codified. There's 133 laws in Texas that use female-based language. So now you can't manipulate it.

How did you get wrapped up with the independent women's forum? I was in Texas. A couple years ago, I was in Austin for a let women speak event. And they contacted me after, and I was totally thrown off. I was like, is this really happening? They're talking to me. And they were really talking to me. Was it because women's women?

Like what got on their radar? I think what did? I was talking as much as I could. I still do. You know, doing as many interviews as possible. And I think they're one of the chapter leads, the chapter lead in Texas, I think, highlighted me. And then there's another one in Arizona that I know. And I think that helped a lot.

And we hadn't even met the one in Arizona in person until, you know, last year. year. I was like, is this our first time meeting? I feel like we've always been friends. It's crazy how connected I get with these ladies and it's all, you know, on Twitter or over the phone or on Zoom. But they pulled me in and I had never, I mean, it totally restored my hope in women in general. I've never seen, they operate amazing. They get a lot of stuff done. And I was like, wow, thank you. and everybody's so sweet and polite and encouraging. And I was like, I get to be a part of this.

And they were like, yes, yes. And I was so humbled. Like, they care because it's hard. It's a hard topic. I don't expect people to, to like feel sorry or want to help a bunch of killers. But they did. And it just was crazy. It was the most refreshing thing ever because doing this by myself with just my two partners that have to work full-time because, you know, got us arrive.

It's been a pretty uphill battle for us. We knew it was going to be a heavy when we picked it up, but. It hasn't gotten much later. No. And then, you know, now because we're in contact with women in federal prisons. and if you think state prison's bad, you know, who do you call for help when you're in the feds? The feds? They're not going to help you. It's really bad over there. How much worse is it? And how is it worse?

Well, what was it last year? This is how I started to understand about the feds. I met my good friend Grandma Debbie. I was with The Christian Post, and we were doing a panel in Texas, And she came out, she was referred to me from like First Liberty, I think. And there was a woman who was her good friend who was horribly, horribly, horribly assaulted by a trans person who actually turned out to be a woman popped up on testosterone. But this lady is completely disfigured and not okay. And she's never going to be physically okay. And this lady's telling me this story, and I'm like, oh no. this is literally the worst.

I thought I'd heard everything. This is the worst thing I'd ever hurt. And the level of neglect and deliberate indifference that she experienced, the prison didn't want to be responsible for letting this happen. So they just let her lay there until scar tissue developed. That was so big. She couldn't even walk. And she still, you know, they denied the reconstruction,

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Biden-nominated magistrates to get permanent seats in the, really prominent federal courts. And there was one specific one, Sarah Netburn, who was going to get the Southern New York District Court, which is one of the most influential courts in the system. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. So she said that this person, J.J.S., who's a sex offender, like a prolific sex offender, it was appropriate for that person to be moved to Carswell, state federal prison. which is a women's medical prison.

A medical prison? What's that? There's people with high medical needs that are there, so they're transferring a lot of them down there now. And there's a high volume of sex offenders, so, you know. So if you're sick, you had there, I didn't realize that there were separate prisons. That have increased medical available facilities.

Yes. But this person, she said that the women, in her report, she said that the women's fears are overblown. And this was against the recommendation from the BOP, from the Bureau of Presidents. They were saying, no, no, no, this isn't appropriate. Let this person complete the program for sex offenders here. And then we can, you know, put this person then in the transgender unit, then we can take it from there. And this judge, this radical judge was like, no way. Transfer this person now. And I talked to women in that. prison so as soon as that person got there they pulled their pecker out and we're saying you know

give me two weeks ladies and it'll be you know completely operational and um you know that's when i got in touch with the judiciary committee and uh ted cruz's office we were able to you know get them all the information they needed to get this judge knocked and her nomination is done it's off the table and that was the situation where we actually were able to convince you know senator john Osoff to vote no on her as well. He's the only person who crossed party lines to deny her that seat. And that was huge. That was a really big deal.

I didn't even know what was a big deal till after, but we worked so hard to make sure they had access to information and letters from women and, you know, the cries for help, they're going completely unanswered because, you know, they're it, but they're always it. They're always it. There has to be a loser in every political game and I don't think it should be them anymore.

Is this all through women to women, your organization? I'm still not clear on when you founded that exactly. 2000, no, 2000, early 2021, the same time that SB 132 was implemented. So at first we just wanted to be like a resource hub, peer support, reentry transition specialists, but reentry into the life society. Yes.

Because you know, there's a lot of little things. things that you don't think are a problem until you get out. I came home and, you know, I heard the dogs running down the hall in the middle of the night and I could hear their collars banging around and I thought it was the cops and I jump up and I'm like, oh my gosh, they're coming. Nobody's coming as the dogs. I was at a gas station with my parents and a bell went off for the car wash and I got on the ground. And I was like, oh my gosh, I only did five years what's going to happen to people who've done 25. I went to a restaurant with my mom and the tables were stainless steel and I had a panic panic attack. I was like, I can't breathe. And she's laughing

saying, what's wrong with you? And I said, I don't know. But I flashed. I just, it felt like I was in the chow hall. I went to Starbucks and I was totally overwhelmed. I was like, I just want a coffee. And then I thought, what is somebody who's never even used a cell phone going to do when they look at that menu. Because you don't have a lot of choices to make when you're inside. No. That stuff's decided for you. But what is the stated purpose of women to women?

Well, you know, we just want to create a soft landing and coach our friends through the rough spots. There's so many things that can cause you to relapse or give up. And we can see it heading, you know, ahead of time. We can see it when it's going to happen. and we can see it developing, and we just want to be there so that you can have somebody to talk to and not feel so alienated, not feel like you're a total weirdo.

And then, you know, let me tell you about this statement of faith. This is a funny story. Women to women believe that the only way to complete rehabilitation from a lifestyle that led to incarceration is through a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So this is a ministry. May you bury the lead. We needed a checking account.

And I didn't get it. Like, I'm still, I'm so, no banks would call me back. And I was like, everybody must be so busy. And I went into a bank and they were like, we said we'd call you. So I prayed and I was like, gosh, is there a Jesus bank or something? So I, you know, looked at Christian banks and I got on the phone and they were like, well, what's your, what's your denomination? I said, I don't know. I said, what's your statement of faith?

I said, I don't know. What do you want me to do? And they said, read ours and then send us one. And I was like, this is a lot of stuff. Must be a good bank. So I prayed, wrote something. I sent it to my partners. I said, how's this?

They said, don't change anything. Send it. I said, wow, no, edits. They said, no, send it. I sent it. And they said, well, then what do you believe? I said, well, I gave me my statement of faith. They said, what do you believe in me?

I said, okay. So I said, give me a half an hour. I wrote that. And that's when I was. like, this is what's wrong. We forgot to make the Lord the cornerstone. We started building, and we forgot to lay the foundation. So when did you, did you figure this out when you were in jail? Or did you know it? No, I was very abusive. Like, I used Jesus to get through my time. And then when I got out, I was like, thanks. See ya. Um, see you next emergency. And then.

When did you get out? 2013. You got out in 13, you formed women to women in 21. So from 19, so from 2013 to 2021, eight years. I was, what are you doing? Being just selfish, enjoying life. You're working? Yes. I worked in retail for a while, and then what the heck did I do?

Then I worked as an administrator at a Japanese culinary school. Was it hard to get a job? Yes. Yes, it was. And the Department of Rehabilitation told me just to get on full disability because it was unemployable. And I was like, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why were you unemployable? My handwriting was too aggressive. My handshake was too aggressive. I was like, two pumps. What do you talk about? They said, go get a forklift license. I said, okay, that sounds like a great idea. Those are fun to drive. And then I said, I'll go work at the refinery. That's what I'm going to do. And then the refinery, HR lady, was like,

I cannot believe that I can't hire you, but I just had to hire a rapist. You're never going to get in the oil field with that charge ever. And I was like, well, there was my hopes and dreams of refiner. Firewatch. Yeah. So, you know, I worked at this sushi school, and it was wonderful. And then COVID came.

and I got some quiet time to really think about what's going on. And people kept coming home and there wasn't access to resources. There's a lot of gatekeeping. There's resources. You just have to know people. And if you don't beg for it or if you don't know the right people or if you're not, you know, the poster child for, you know, Marxist indoctrination, you're probably not going to, you know, get a lot of love.

So I thought, let's open this up to people. And that's when this emergency happened, and I thought this was an emergency. It's still an emergency to me. So I had to shift focus to this because it is a crisis. It's a female human rights crisis. I had no idea it was going to be so political or polarized. And people warned me, like, you have no idea what you're getting into. This is way bigger than you think.

You can't do this. You have to learn how to talk. You can't talk like this. And I was like, eh, I don't think so. I know how to talk. They were like, you have to learn the language. I said, I know the language, and I'm comfortable with using this language. No men in women's prisons.

And I thought, who's going to be against this? Who is going to possibly want to fight this? And surprise, surprise. It does seem like a winning position. But what is the argument? What's the basic argument in favor of, putting men in women's prisons? Because trans women are women, and these are marginalized people

that are at a 14% higher risk of being sexually assaulted, and they're bullied by staff. And it's a rapist killing field in men's prison. But it's not. It's not. It's not the movies. This is not the 80s. It's not like that.

What's it like? I mean, it's still the killing field in California. We're at 81 murders this year. In state prisons. In our state prisons. And, you know, the secretary of CDCR is a governor-appointed person, and the governor hasn't said anything about these 81 murders, which is pretty high.

I think it's the most ever in a six-month period in CDCR history, if I'm correct. Well, per capita, I mean, 81 murders in the entire prison population. 96,000. That's a lot of people. 81 out of 96,000, yeah, if that were to translate to the whole population of California, well, that'd be bad. But, you know, they're doing things like making San Quentin a rehabilitation center. Because we don't have like 13 trillion bazillion dollars in debt,

so let's give the most dilapidated old prison that is on a zillion dollar real estate. sell it sell it so that could create a lot of resources it's pretty good beachfront ocean view property right but they're going to build learning centers and uh death row was there so since that there's a moratorium on the death penalty um they have asked the people on death row to re to integrate with general population they took i think 34 and put them in a level two men's prison there's no electric fence, so that's against the law. If you are condemned, you have to be in a facility with an electric fence. But somehow they worked around that. But the men, you know, they do have different opportunities. Education, there's a lot of outside resources that come in and offer

certifications and stuff. The women are starting to catch up, but it's still very unbalanced. So what was the inciting incident then, Amy? Like what happened to you in 2021? I know we're locked down, you seem to have gone from, like you didn't leave prison, you know, ready to hit the ground running on a mission. I didn't realize that. It took you eight years before you decided this was going to be the cause. What caused it? In January, I got hundreds of letters and calls from ladies.

I don't even know. Old ladies, little old ladies. big ladies, little ladies, small ladies, tall ladies, all of them. People were like crying and they're like, I'm scared, what do I do? And I just thought this is really weird. You guys are losing it. Let me review this law. And when I read it, I was like, oh, I'm going to barf.

I can't believe this. This is worse than they even know because it's not like they have access. They're not going to go look up the final aberrant. verbiage and and and but I started sending all that in I was like okay we're going to arm these women with education let's make sure they know these letters are coming from ladies who were incarcerated yes because the law came out well they began the implementation because they were holding it off with the lockdowns but the first bus load came and they were like those are men some of them with boobs but those are men they were told these are going to be delicate flowers

people that are at risk people that need a safe place to do their time And these women were like, oh, okay. And that's not what happened. That is not what happened at all. And there was no education provided. There was no preparation. It just, well, because I think the department didn't think this was going to pass. You know, every officer I've spoken to, they're like, well, nobody thought that was really going to happen.

But somehow it did. Yes. Every single Democrat in the state of California voted yes. from the Assembly all the way to the governor's office voted yes. All nine Republicans voted no, but what are you going to do in a supermajority? The entire women's caucus fully supported this. And, you know, I sent that information in too

because I just think that they should get full disclosure and know who's doing this, who's supporting this, who's frameworking things like this, because they should have access to that information. They should know. They should know that when those people come in and smile and take pictures with them to send to their, put in their annual reports,

they should know that's who is skinning and grinning and making money off of a check written in your blood on your back, you know. So to sum up, women to women, that does have a pretty clear mission. aside from the core belief, you just want to get men out of women's prisons. Yeah. And I don't want anything bad to happen to them either.

Everybody should have a place where they can do their time, rehabilitate, and get better, and be the best version that they can possibly be, especially when you're spending $132,000 a year on these people. They should be coming out ready to participate in society and live, But this is like a recipe for a total disaster.

That's what it costs to incarcerate someone in California, 132 grand a year? Yes, that's for somebody with minimal medical needs. That's for a baseline inmate, prisoner person. But, you know. That's amazing. Look, I mean, the more you know, right? The more you know. Yes, and you can't care about stuff you don't know about.

What can people do if they want to join? the cause if they want to be involved. Please talk to your elected officials, talk to your assembly person. It's easy. They're very accessible. It doesn't seem like it, but some internal take your call. Say that this matters to you because they can't care about what they don't know about either. And they have to know, call Senator Wiener and tell them this isn't normal.

That there's got to be a way to ensure all of these people have respect, agency and dignity. Those aren't things that you can just give to a little tiny part of the population. What happens when you give, you know, supreme rights to a small sector of society? Bad stuff. What is the actual name of the bill? What did you say after the number? The Transgender Respect Agency and Dignity Act. And I have used those three words so much to try and drive it home that these aren't basic human rights. They can't, you can't just give them to a little bit of people. And then you have the rest of the ladies like, oh, okay. They've never had respect agency or dignity ever, ever, before prison, in prison, after prison.

So those are free. California can definitely afford to ensure that everybody has access to that. But there's just so much resistance. And I've done my best to really soften the delivery of the message. And my heart has softened. And I do care about these people. And I was mad. I was really mad in 2021, but I'm like fully understanding now that I have to care about all of them to really advocate correctly.

So I would like for them to be able to safely do their time over there. That's Harry Bosch, would put it, everybody matters or nobody matters. Yeah, it took a long time to get here, but I'm glad I finally made it. Well, I'm glad you came by. It's fascinating what you're doing. The IWF is doing great work. I assume women to women.org? Yes.

For more info? Yes. Yes. And that's the Roman numeral two, not the Arabic number two. Technically is I-I. Yes. I-I. Yeah.

Woman-I-I-Women. Dot org. Because the number two was taken. Number two is taken. This is so much simple. or Amy. I was like, yeah, this looks easy. This is definitely not going to confuse people at all.

Yeah, nonprofits are exciting, aren't they? It's quite an industry. Thanks again for coming and good luck. Thank you very much. When you leave a review, which we hope that you'll do, tell us who you are. Tell us who you are. And before you go, won't you leave? Stop.

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