The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 459: Steven Grayhm—Sheepdog

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Mike meets actor, writer, and director Steven Grayhm, whose award-winning film Sheepdog is about to hit theaters. Steven breaks down how a three-hour ride with a tow truck driver led him on a 14-year odyssey to get to the truth about veteran post-traumatic stress. It's a conversation about grit, service, sacrifice, and the complicated realities faced by the men and women who stand their post long after the uniform comes off. Steven's passion for telling their stories with honesty and respect shines through every frame of Sheepdog, and every minute of this conversation.

Hello, friends. It's the way I heard it. I'm Mike Rowe. My guest today is Stephen Graham. He made a movie called Sheep Dog. It is remarkable. And Chuck, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I do believe it made you cry like a 10-pound baby girl. I told you that in confidence, Mike. Yes, it made me cry. It made a young woman by the name of Tracy cry. It stuck with us for days. Yeah. I'm not going to tell you why the movie is called Sheep Dog. You're smart. You'll figure it out. But this is a... I'm going to call it a passion project. Stephen Graham is an actor who's been kicking around now for some time, but he's spent the last 13, 14 years getting this independent film made. And it is, I'll say, an unflinching, gritty, super honest look at post-traumatic stress, what it does to an individual, what it does to the loved ones, what it does within a community. and a potential way out.

It's getting praise from a lot of real vets who are seeing it and saying, I want to show this to my family because it nailed it. And I wish my ex-wife could have seen this. I wish my kids from whom I'm estranged could have seen this or will see this. You know, there's so much about this topic that is difficult. You know, it's difficult. called people don't flock to the theater and they don't buy books and they don't watch TV shows that deals with this topic because it is heavy.

But as you guys know, you know, we've been trying as best we can for a long time in my little company to shine a light on lots of different ways to deal with post-traumatic stress. And this film does it in a very ambitious way. I didn't know this guy, Stephen Graham. The audience might know him from white chicks. Yes. He got his butt. He wound up in a wheelchair because of Terry Cruz, I think.

In a most unfortunate series of Sirius. Yes. Yeah. But who knew he was a screenwriter and a director and the star of this film. And who knew this Canadian kid who studied in England cared so deeply about this country and about our military and why. wanted so very much to create this love letter around an issue that actually matters. It's, I mean, I hate to say it, but it's a very important film.

I would agree. And he wouldn't be here if it weren't for U.S. servicemen. And I'll let him tell the story in there. But I do want to say about this movie, first of all, that it stuck with me really hard. You know, I called you immediately and said, hey, man, this is really something. And this movie has won 15 awards in the film festival circuits, including best actor and best screenplay. Yeah.

Both of which, you know, Stephen Graham did. That's right. Yeah. He spells his last name funny. And he'll explain why right out of the gate. And then we'll have a conversation that I hope you'll share because people ought to see the movie. And they, I think, look, there are a lot of ways to say thanks and to be great.

and to acknowledge what's happened to a lot of men and women who put on the uniform. It's important to do that. But to Chuck's point, it does stick with you. I just watched the film in real time last night. If you're listening to this now, it's probably because the film is about to be released in theaters nationwide. My advice is to check it out. It's thoughtful. It's a great use of the word sheepdog, which frankly, I haven't heard enough since

the Bugs Bunny Roadrunner Hour. Well, I just want to say that I believe it will be in limited release in December and it will be nationally distributed in January. Find it. See it. It's called Sheep Dog by Stephen Graham. You'll meet him next. I love stories like this.

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I'm from Western Massachusetts. That's where I'm currently living with my wife and my 13th month old. And where you filmed this amazing movie. Thank you. Yeah, sheepdog, yes. I wanted, we'll get into the film details, but just... You bet we will. But just about Western Massachusetts and why that was so important.

So my wife's from there. She grew up there. I grew up a little six hours north of that, just across the Canadian border. And I did 21 years in L.A. My wife did 10 of those last 21. So funny when people say that. It's like, that's the same way you talk about prison. Yeah, well, I mean, anyone that's lived here that long is like the city underwent a lot of changes.

And we were blessed that she got pregnant. And like anyone in that situation, you've got to make some big decisions. and, you know, it's no longer about yourself. And, you know, so we went back to Western Mass. And that's where we currently are. And it's great for so many reasons. Let me say, as we get into your film and a whole lot of other things, I watched it last night.

I so appreciate that you made it. I loved watching it most of the time, but I got to be honest, man. There were parts of it, and I'm in this world. the combination of grit and like unflinching reality around this issue, PTSD. Did we say the D anymore, or is it just PTSD? I don't like to say it, but yeah. I mean, it's so well acted and it's so poignant, but there are moments where it's as real as a great doc.

But before I even got pulled into the story or anything else, I got pulled into Western Mass. drone shots or did you use a West Cam? Did you use helicopter? No, those were drone shots. Yeah, that's, uh, T.J. Millard was our aerial, um, cinematographer. He does all Taylor shared and stuff. Keep him. Keep him.

He's a, just a wonderful human being. And, yeah. My compliments, because I'm, I'm such a stickler for, uh, for place. Yeah. You know, like in novels and movies, it's, sometimes you just get such a sense of the place. and you can't do it with exposition and you can't do it with like, you know, monologues. You just have to show it and somehow get the, what do they call it, the patois. Yeah.

Right? And you got it in drone shots. You got it in the interior of that paper mill. A real paper mill? Yeah, it was. And I've been in a few and I looked at that. Yeah. And right?

And I set out loud, holy shit, that's a real paper mill. Yeah. Obviously, I have closed right and left. So I guess the word is verisimilitude, and your movie is filled with it. And congrats, man, because I know that was not easy to make, and it must have took a long time. Yeah, it was a 14-year journey to today sitting here in front of you. And I never... It all comes to this.

Yeah, it does. And, you know, and thank you for allowing it to come to this. Yeah, look, you know, spent years on the road sitting in front of veterans. and I'll get to the Genesis story, but just speaking about Western Massachusetts, it was imperative that as the storyteller, as the screenwriter, that if I'm holding up the mirror,

I have to be authentic. I can't judge the characters, and I have to show the audience the truth. And Western Massachusetts was perfect because everywhere I had gone across the country, I was going to a lot of small towns, a lot of working class folks, especially those that serve in the military. Mental health workers, same thing.

And I wanted it to reflect that. We were very fortunate, just in terms of the paper mill. That paper mill shut down in 2017, my brother-in-law, who worked his butt off there for years, he had a contact and the guy who ran the mill, and they let us in there. Because it needed to be authentic. it needed to be, I mean, even the pulp. That was real pulp. You know, that's, it's not even paper.

It's actually like cotton rags. Why is it important the detail like that? Okay. In a film like this. Be so right. One false note and you're dead. And the whole song goes to hell. Yeah.

And I knew that. And oftentimes when I'm asked, like, what was the hardest part of the 14-year journey? It was getting it right. Why do you know that? When did you learn that the devil truly lives in the details? Okay, I can answer that probably in two parts. When I learned the responsibility of what I was embarking on, wasn't until I met with the first veteran that I met with in 2011 in McCallon, Texas, George Rice. I was idealistic. I set up cameras just like this, and he was very open and he was lovely, and someone, and then we cut the cameras and broke for lunch. That's when he pulled me aside.

And he was like, hey, so are you the screenwriter? And I didn't know at the time if I was going to write a screenplay. I was journaling. I was just trying to get the story of like understanding what was going on in our country. And he began to open up about a military operation that now we've seen the film. My character talks about it's in the film. It's loosely inspired by these events. But at the end of that conversation off camera, he took off his in-memory

band that had the name of three of his fallen brothers. And he held it out to me and he said, don't let me down. And I remember in that moment, I did not want to take the band. And he said, again, don't let me down. You have to take the band. And I did. And I got in the car. And I remember my co-star in the film Matt Dallas, he did, you know, he went on the road with

me and we sat there in the car in silence and we knew we had bid off more than we can chew. We had no background. We had no, there was nothing to equip us but our curiosity and the sense of responsibility that we felt. But we didn't know what we were doing. And we sat there and I remember thinking, well, the easy path right now is to go back to L.A. and just call it a day and go like, hey, we're not cut out for this. Or I take this band and I continue on. And that was the summer of 2011. So there was no way to, if you were going to continue, onwards through the country that you could ever there was

inauthentic wasn't an option right it wasn't shooting the movie all I wanted to do was you know in telling the truth and telling people's stories hundreds of people that we met with I wanted to do them a service to be like to represent their lives as best as I knew how to

that wasn't a glossy Hollywood story or movie. I raised all the production budget, independent financing out of Texas. I had no studio notes. I took a lot of script notes from people I trusted in the veteran community, mental health community, but I didn't have anyone trying to, I had no agenda personally, but I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder with an agenda. And that's how other than your soul and your conscience and the incredible weight of the project that you assumed. I want people to understand something.

I've done, I don't know, maybe 14 stories about vets and various organizations that are trying to help people like the character you portrayed who are struggling so terribly with this stuff. But I live in a very, very specific kind of TV land where there's no pre-production. Yeah. There's really no second takes in my world.

There's no casting. There's no, very, very, very little of that. And so I have a certain amount of freedom to move and pivot and zig and zag fast. I can touch things like they're hot. Yeah. In relative terms. Yeah. You can't.

Yeah. You're in a whole different type of world. So I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, know, I get a certain amount of credit for trying to shine a light on this issue, but I can do it quick. I don't know that I would have bitten off the bite. Just bit. It was terrifying. It was terrifying. I feel like if I listen carefully, I can hear the echo of your sphincter slamming shut 14 years down the road. Echoing. Yeah, yeah. Through the heartland. Yeah. Look, I was surrounded by good people.

I was surrounded by people, Gold Star family members. You cast them. I did, five of them. And then I was just, you know, people that, veterans that would check in and make sure everything was okay. How many vets in the movie all together? 17, 17, yeah. And why that was important, too, not just in the storytelling, but through my production company, Teamhouse Studios. You know, our mission is to hire and train veterans and Gold Star family members in front of the camera and behind the camera.

And, you know, what I had learned very quickly was that, and this is not my opinion, this is just the feedback from vets that have worked on our set, was a return to the camaraderie. So if you put a group of veterans, say, in an Airbnb and they're sharing a house, when you rap and they go home and they're eating chow together, there's a sense of camaraderie that they miss from the service that they get again. you know. A lot of people don't realize this filmmaking, you're working with your hands, you know, and it's a very blue-collar job, and it doesn't get glossy and all the Hollywood nonsense until you get to the red carpet. But the actual making of the movie, I mean, you're moving sea stands and sandbags. I mean, you know this, right? You were doing it up and down sewers. But, and then the hours are wild, right? So just to touch on what you've been doing in your work, too, because this is a good, this tetheres very well.

to why that is the mission of the production company. Veterans show up on time. They'll stay late. As you've said in your own words, they'll tuck in their shirt. They don't whine, right? And I don't want to like ever blanket statement something, but I say this with so much honor and pride,

that's only been my experience. They won't the ball. It's the top of the ninth. The bases are loaded. Yep. Give me the ball. Yep. Yep.

So yeah, I don't, you know, that's a quality. to search for. Yeah. And it's easier to find in the cohort you're describing. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And so many other things, you know, that it's all, I think you're talking about soft skills. Yeah. Basically, you know, and yeah, it's a, it's hard to even talk about that in the real world, certainly in a traditional HR department, in a traditional company, you know, let's sit down and talk about how to train your employees to behave. Yeah. It's good luck. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think it's interesting because for me, out in Western Massachusetts, there's a technical school. It's Franklin County technical. And my wife has childhood friends that went there. And again, I don't want to generalize here, but I'm just saying they're all flourishing. They work very hard from what I understand. They're all happy. And, you know, they have a, their sense of purpose out there. Many of them are like family to me.

That's been, like, think about that shift from, like, Los Angeles to being in that kind of environment. And it's been very healthy for me. It's a sea change. Yeah, especially being someone who grew up on my grandparents' fruit farm. Like, it's been really good for me. What kind of fruit? Well, are you sick of it yet?

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demystifying AI. It's filled with super useful information. And again, it's free at netsuite.com slash mike. That's netsuite.com. Okay, grapes. Strawberries are probably the hardest to pick because you're bent over

and apples, cherries. And then there was, in the early days, a little bit of livestock, just for milk and so on. But I remember going with my grandmother, my mom's parents, they're Polish immigrants, and we would go to the market with whatever we picked, you know, to sell it. And that's how I spent most of my summers if I wasn't playing baseball. Why's your last name spelled so funny? You know, it's a long story. Which I actually haven't told. So here we go.

Okay. You can't have two names in the union. In the Screen Actors Guild. That's correct. Yeah. And I remember, you know, my early manager at the time, my agent was like, oh, you might have to change your name and everything. And I didn't want to change. I'd heard stories that Leo DiCaprio, he had a manager that said, change your name to Lenny Williams.

Your name is too ethnic or something. and yeah, and it's just so ridiculous. Thank God he didn't. Hey, Chuck used to be called Brad Pitt once about a time, but that didn't work at. Didn't stick. And so I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my parents. I'm like, I don't want to change my name. Do I go with my middle name? And my mom was like drawing out letters and whatever. And she with me at the table said, okay, there you go. And that's it. And I never looked back. She just, you basically, you're just playing Wheel of Fortune with your mom.

Yeah. And it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, you know, what they had asked that I had to do or whatever. But I, look, I wasn't going to go with, you know, Stephen Sweetwater or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, are you joking? You mean the Western Massachusetts Sweetwaters? Yeah, yeah. I read about you guys.

So, yeah, that's just one of the things. I mean, it's funny because, you know, I read in Harrison Ford's biography that at the time he was joining the union, there was already a Harry Ford or Harrison Ford, and he was going to have to change his name. And I believe it was, don't quote me, but it might have been like a jazz musician or something. And on the day he was going to change his name, the gentleman, may he rest in peace. I don't know who he is, passed away. And he got to keep his name. Well, there you go.

And it could have been, you know, Charlie Ford stars in, Frank. Yeah, Return of the Jedi. Is Han Solo. Yeah. No, I had a heck of a time with a guy named Mike Rowe who had bought Mike Rowe.com years ago. And he didn't do anything with it. just held it. And, you know, I learned later that he basically bought the thing, like in season three of Dirty Jobs. Because he... Oh, no. Yeah. He watched his show and he's like, you know what?

I think this son of a bitch is going to do something with his life. And he bought it because it was his name too. And we eventually reached out to say, hey, look, if you're not using it, can I buy it from you? Yeah. And you know what? He simply asked for too much. And so I passed. Yeah. And then he passed. And then... And then you got it. You're like, got it. Yeah.

What is the moral of this story? Of both of these stories. Well, I think one moral is patience. Yeah. Like, it's very Shakespearean what's in a name. Right. Right? You know, it just seems like...

Yeah. But it's also really... I mean, we hear these stories, but I'm always fascinated by them because... Like, I wonder if I'd be sitting here talking you today had my name been Zach. which it was for 24 hours, apparently. But my mom had second thoughts. And so, you know, does Stephen Graham, by a different spelling, wind up taking a different road? Or if Stephen becomes Simon or Sven?

Yeah. No, no, it's funny that you say that because it definitely, at the time, it was because I booked a gig, right? So you have to make that decision there. You're joining the union. Yeah. At the time I was in university, is in my second year. And I was pretty sure I was going to go pre-med. and I was pretty sure I don't know.

Maybe I wasn't going to do that, right? And so I think it definitely, oddly, if we're talking about consonants in a last name, it definitely, whatever reason defined a different path because I went all in. I went all in. To my parents' devastation, I was very expensive.

I was on an academic scholarship, but, you know, it didn't cover all of it. I was staring down the barrel of tens of thousands of dollars. Sure. And I jumped ship. I was like, I'll just, you know, and I moved to Vancouver, Canada at the time. To act.

To act, right. But I had, I have to say, I did train classically. I had studied at the Royal Academy in England and everything. Like, so this all was in that year of, like, dropping out. And I moved to Vancouver, Canada, and I was very fortunate to work right away. And it was, I moved to Vancouver. I didn't know a soul. So you're kind of redefining yourself, but you're still.

yourself. Like I never, I felt more me because there was no guard rails or there was no training wheels. It was all in. And it was very fortunate. And then within those, gosh, I don't know, two or three years, I booked work. I was able, and that's when I moved to Los Angeles. And then there was no looking back. It is interesting if you think about what happens when you change your geography. Yeah. Right? And we started with geography. But it really, influences your surroundings have an undeniable influence on who you become. I think your name also has an influence on your identity. And to be forced or at least asked at the tip of a sword to change it if you want the gig,

right? I mean, it's like this one more example of, all right, I am transforming in a lot of different ways. Your movie is about identity. It's about transforming. It's about what happens to a guy who goes in to hell with a band of brothers and comes out different. And then what's he do? He can't fix his problem, the character you play Cole. Calvin Cole.

Calvin Cole. Sergeant Cole, yeah. Yeah, he can't fix his problems by buying a vowel or juxtaposing some letters. And he can't fix his problems by moving to a new town. his problems, you know, are up there in the undiscovered. Yeah, and I think it was really important to me in the storytelling to, like, Calvin is not broken. There might be fragments, but he is not broken,

and he does not feel sorry for himself, you know. And I think that, you know, if I share with you now the genesis of how I got to doing the research and why I'd love to take, because that really connects to the character that I thought was important to play, So beginning of 2011, speaking of Vancouver, I'm shooting up there, but I'm now, I'm living in L.A. I shoot a film up there. I wrap on it, and I drove through the night, as I typically would do when I would go up to Canada. Three hours north of the city, my car breaks down.

North of L.A. L.A., yeah. And I call AAA, and they send the local tow guy out. And so this guy shows up, and he was like, oh, we're driving all the way into L.A. Yep. And he's like, all right, well, saddle up, partner. We got a long ride in there. I'm exhausted because I've been driving through the night. So I'm kind of nodding off, you know, falling asleep. And he just started to open up to me. And he started to talk about the challenges of his marriage, of being the father of three, his financial hardship. And then he began to open up about all of the medications that he was on for his post-remember. stress from his military service, multiple deployments. I don't think I said three words on that drive. I just listened.

And I remember throughout this, you know, one-sided conversation that he kept saying to me, I can't believe I'm telling you this. I've never told my wife. I can't believe I'm telling you this. I haven't even told a therapist this and so on. We get back to Los Angeles. I thank him for getting me home safe.

give him a hug. I'm like, brother, if you ever need anything, I'm here, you ever want to grab a beer? And I looked into his eyes and I was certain that there was comfort for him to never see me again. And I was like, all right, you know, I couldn't stop thinking about him that week. And I was like, how could a guy who served his country feel this alone and disconnected from his family, his community, from his country? And just so I'm clear, in spite of this connection, you see in his eyes a look of relief that he doesn't have to see you again? Yeah, I think there was something that was just cathartic. I don't know. Well, maybe because now you're walking around with his secrets. And, you know, I mean, it's one thing to unburden yourself.

It's another thing to run into the person. That's right. To who you've unburdened. That's correct. And I think that that speaks to what it was, that like having shared that with somebody maybe in his direct circle that he would have felt judged or I don't know but I do know that that lit the spark and it wasn't just a sense of curiosity it felt like a sense of responsibility so a month later I'm on the paramount ranch shooting a western with Matt Dallas who became my co-star in the film and I said to him hey man I

I had this experience and I tell him all about it and I said I've been journaling ever since and there's got to be more men and women like him and I and I feel compelled to I got to go out on the road and find out if this becomes anything more than just journaling in a screenplay, I think you should play my best friend. And the reason I said that to him was because a week earlier during filming, Matt had shared a very personal story with me

and I'll never forget, as he was describing the pain of the personal story, he smiled through it like the tow truck driver in some ways. And I was like, so that's where that came story-wise. Matt agreed to go on the road with me that summer to see it for himself. And as I told you the story with Staff Sergeant George Rice, once he handed me that in Memorium Band, there was no looking back. And 13 years, 14 years later, here we are.

But you know that, I mean, there's nothing intrinsically or inherently magical about that band. It was the meaning you consciously or unconsciously assigned to it. it. So the question is, you know, I mean, I get your road to Damascus. You had a moment. But still, we Canadian? Yeah, I'm dual citizen. Yeah. Studying in England. Yeah. Why do you give a damn about the trials and tribulations of the people who fought for this country? Because I wouldn't be here. my grandfather was a POW for five years during World War II and he was tortured I grew up with him sleeping on the bottom bunk to his stories at night in his broken English about what happened to him he can just at that time he described in my

childhood mind as I remember it anyway literally a scene of America and allied troops coming over the horizon to liberate them from these labor camps. That was my dog in the fight. If they hadn't been, he wouldn't have got to North America. I wouldn't be here. That's part one. Part two. When Operation Iraqi Freedom first happened,

I remember sitting on the freeway and hearing the news of 48 hours, I believe it was, for Saddam Hussein to get out of the country. And I remember I had auditions all that week. And the first casualties began to come in. And this was at the advent, I think, of like, internet updates, like Yahoo internet updates, whatever. And the first American casualties began to come in. And for whatever, like, I couldn't, I couldn't focus. I was so, I just couldn't believe we were sort of living through this, right?

And you see the faces of the fallen or whatever. And I basically, for those. following weeks I called off any appointments I had or anything and I was just trying to work through it. I don't know why I'm like I don't but I I just my empathy and then all those years later you know because I had read books on it I had you know studied you know I'd read Generation Kill I had read books like on combat on killing just out of fascination and so on but but it wasn't until that personal sort of seminal moment with a tow truck driver where I was like, okay, this has to be a calling. And I was willing to accept that if it wasn't, I could have made

that decision once I was out on the road. Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Row gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding and well-established commitment issues. You'll learn about the latest offer from Pure Talk, which includes unlimited talk, text, and data for just $3499 a month with no contracts and no commitments of any kind. You can see why I love these guys.

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You can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure talk. And I have to say, like, the research didn't stop there. I was very fortunate, the Detroit VA Medical Center. That first summer, I was able to build their trust. They allowed me in there to role play with their doctors, their therapists, their neurologist, psychologist.

That informed so much of the film and informed Virginia Madsen's character who plays my trauma therapist. It's terrific, by the. I also, yeah, she's just incredible. And then I also did Honor Flight out of Austin. That's where you take veterans, as you know, to their respective memorials in D.C. So Vietnam veterans and World War II veterans that I had a great fortune to multiple times. Most of Vondi Curtis Hall's dialogue was informed directly.

didn't invent that. That stuff I heard down at the bar with my respective veteran that I was with or with the group over whiskey. You're putting words and actors' mouths that you had heard in real life or that are coming out of a transcript? No, that are in real life. So like, so here's a thing. I'll give you an example. At the end of Honor Flight, they do your coming home, okay? And again, I want to be really careful because I don't want to blanket statement things, but I'm just giving you my own personal experience of what it was for me. So you get your coming home. As you get off the plane back in Austin, you know, they announce over the PA, hey, everybody, we have, you know, national treasures that are going to be walking through or in their wheelchairs

through, all standing ovation. And it's, it's amazing. Unbelievable. You get chills all the way up your neck. You know, some Vietnam veterans, certainly mine that I was chaperoning, had no interest. And I'll never forget that on one particular occasion, he turned to me, my guy, and he said, I don't need this. We were spat on when we came home. We had to exit out the back. Your medals are in the mail. That's in the movie. That's right. You spit in the, somebody says thanks for your service at a bar and walks away and you basically repeat it. Like you spit the words out as you said. Because in my experience, look, I know that civilians oftentimes don't know how to thank veterans.

They mean well. Of course. They just don't. And I often say to vets that I know, look at, like, it takes a lot of courage to come up to a stranger and go, hey, thank you for your service. So just understand that side of it. But most veterans in my experience said, well, don't give me some holiest. jester, just ask me how I'm doing, you know? And so I felt like that's why my character reacts that way because I had just seen it so much where if I was out with a group of veterans and, you know, civilians come up, are like, oh, you know, thank you for your service or whatever. And it always felt empty and hollow. And I thought that that was fair to share. Um, asking how are you doing and really meaning it goes a long way.

goes a really long way. I wonder sometimes, I've talked to a lot of vets about this too, and one guy said, my question was, why is that expression of gratitude so often taken or mistaken for something else? And he said, it's because I really don't need to hear a tacit admission of guilt from someone I've never met. And the truth is, if I'm being brutally honest, I didn't really do it for you. Yeah. I did it for the, the ephemeral you. But I, most people enlist for very personal reasons, even if they're patriotic reasons, they're personal. In the same way, I think that when it gets down to the short strokes, it's not about the chain of command. It's not about, it's not about your family at home.

It's about that, it's not the guy next to you. Absolutely. And so that is what you, I think you were talking about earlier. If you, when you find that band of brothers mentality, yeah, maybe it's in a paper mill and a movie. Yeah. Maybe it's in a sewer in a reality show. But that's part of the thing, I think, that I'll generalize and say men, women too, but mostly men are starving for that kind of connection.

And so when we see that connection, made real in films and we see it depicted on the battlefield you know that I don't think that's a lie I think it's a portrayal but I think it's real and then when you break that and then throw those guys back in a polite society

with no reverse boot camp to help them sort it out that's a problem I think too though is that the older generation of warrior you know the VFW and the American Legion are very popular

at one point, but I've walked into VFWs in American Allegiance all over the countries, and I'll see different generations of veterans, but predominantly older. And I think in the advent of social media, oftentimes it's like you're part of like a Facebook group maybe. So you're still like you're connected, but you're not, right? You know, like you're, especially if you're out in a rural area, you know, some vets don't want to go to the VFW if they think. oh, that's for the old time or having the cheap beer, right? I've heard that. But I always argue to that, but it's so important to, it doesn't have to be about that.

And it's so important to connect with, if you're having trouble connecting with civilians, it's so important to connect with those that might have walked a mile in your shoes, just different conflict. I saw that a lot on Honor Flight. I saw when the vets, it was a younger generation that were, and I'm laughing, because I think of like some of the, some of the conversations between the younger and older generation vets and they just get on each other and it's sometimes going to be hilarious. But it's so healthy. And then you have this incredibly communal experience, whether you're at the Vietnam Wall, very sobering or at the World War II Museum or not museum at Memorial. at the monument, yeah.

At the monument. And then that night, if you're so lucky, you get to have a couple of whiskeys together. And there's just something, it's like a sweat lodge. There's just something in that. And then to be a civilian who didn't serve and to be able to be invited into that, it's life-changing. It heartens me to hear you say it. I agree violently. It's not just something.

It's something eternal. man, how much fun did we have in VFW halls growing up? A lot of fun. A lot of fun. And precisely because it was populated with a generation that was distant from us and yet available to us. And these were men who sang the old songs and four-part harmony and who ate their peanuts and drank their national bohemian and would sit you down and would tell you a story. like a real story about foxholes and grenades and uncommon valor, you know,

and then paused to sing a song. And that was communal. And I'll tell you, man, it's funny. I did a movie a couple years ago and filmed a scene at the World War II Memorial. I was just doing a stand-up, basically, and an honor flight came in. It was totally unplanned. And I called the crew over because there was an old, man in a wheelchair who knew me, had seen me on the TV.

Turns out he grew up like a mile from my parents. And he and my dad were in Korea at the same time. And suddenly I'm just squatting there. Crew comes over and we film this moment. And so that, this kind of goes to my earlier point. And I don't know if it's even worth making again. But these moments that you're describing, they occur in real life. and your job is to somehow make them believable on screen.

My job, too, smaller screen. But the moral of my story is the moments that we use to promote that project were the moments I had with that old man that were completely unscripted, unanticipated, and utterly real. That's what I meant before when I said, I think I have an unfair. advantage. Like we're both trying to do the same thing, but to be able to grab that moment and put that on screens to promote the project as a gift. It was, sheep dog was lightning in a bottle. Yeah. I really mean that, and I'll tell you why. Who's the sheep dog, by the way? I still can't figure it out. That's for you to determine, but there could be multiple sheep dogs. What I did

with the story was take David Grossman's from on combat. Take, it was a metaphor that Vietnam veterans said in his book. I didn't want to make it sort of the literal sense of, as we know, sheep dogs in our society, those that are law-abiding citizens that are comfortable with violence, if need be, the wolf being, you know, somebody who would commit a violent act that's immoral, and then the sheep being the general populace. I wanted to take it further and make it more of a metaphor for our story's sake of the wolf at your door. because I'm not showing you war scenes in the film, right?

I'm showing you the war of the soul. And that's what I saw, because I've never walked on a battlefield. And that's what I saw. But I do want to say that, like, what informed so much of so much of that writing and how it sort of came to be that was I felt, and why we pick up in the story 10 years after his first deployment. I hadn't seen that film from my generation. I hadn't.

I'd seen coming home. I'd seen The Deer Hunter, that sort of thing. American sniper? He's back. It's only a few years. I'm going like if you were to pick up 10 years after that, right? Because I felt like in some ways, that's where a lot of my research began. Like, I think guys that I was sitting in front of men and women were only out two, three years in the beginning.

And then I remained friends and I would. follow their lives to see like where are they ending up and all that and as as it took longer to get the film made and if I was going to play the part I got older the characters got older and it became more interesting to me it just took on something in its own light but I do want to say this about it being lightning in a bottle and I appreciate you talking about the authenticity of the performances the independent filmmaking you have no money to throw at any problem zero zero right Right. I had to trust that the research I did in my screenplay and the words on the page were enough.

So there was never a moment on set where I ever went over into the corner going, gosh, what would Calvin do in this moment? It was just pure instinct. I would typically do two takes like Clint Eastwood style. The last person I would typically speak to was my cinematographer, Evans Brown, who is like Gandalf. and he would have this calming voice. I'd already mapped out the camera movements and everything, and, you know, we rehearsed, and then I would step in front of the camera,

and that's what came out. And so I was never overthought, and that was also very similar to my entire cast. As you directed before? Yeah, I mean, I directed music videos and stuff, like just not, nothing like, you know, and I directed a, you know, a kid's sort of like horror film.

Not like this. Featio-A-film. Yeah, no, no, no, but nothing like this, not a serious drama. And so, no, this was like a foray for sure. And I can't tell you how many times over the years that people said to me, and we were laughed out of Hollywood offices, right? And that's why partly why it took so many years. And I understood it.

Like, nobody saw it. And they certainly didn't see me on the, poster and, you know, and I had gotten to a place where this is not a vanity project, but what I did know was that the work that I was going to do as the actor and the researcher and the writer, typically in L.A. in Hollywood, you're lucky to get 30 days before you're rolling, before you're on camera. When you hear about, you know, Daniel D. Lewis getting a year to prep for Abe Lincoln, well, that was something he worked out with Spielberg, who wasn't happy about that, by the way. No, that's luxurious.

Right. So my concern was I didn't want someone stepping into it who was just going to give their version of what they thought it was. I wanted to give my version of what I knew it was. And that was the difference. And that's how I ended up there. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people

who work in HR departments and companies all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves a million times over by helping countless employers get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before. And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most qualified candidates first.

This is a huge time saver, hours and hours of save time. And it helps people like me find the people who can function in a non-traditional work environment like MicroWorks. In other words, ZipRecruiter works for me, and they'll probably work for you too. Post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash row. watch what happens. Odds are, you'll find a human resource that just happens to be a great fit for your company in 24 hours or less. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hire. Chuck, can you find the poster for the film? I'm going to look at something. Something to stand for? Oh, for this one? No, no, no, this one. It's not all about me all the

time. Anyway. Are you sure? I'm sure. Okay. You know what? You're right. Bring up my movie. Let's talk about that. No, I want to, I, um. I don't know that I have the poster, but this is the website, right? Yeah. I'm looking for the reviews.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you go, if you go down, yeah, we, we should talk about that. I'm not going to make you read these. No, but there's a couple. Yeah, there's a couple there. Yeah, this, uh, yeah, Joe Neumeyer, we were, I was floored.

A thoughtful, engaging, beautifully acted drama that can stand tall in the company of such Giants is coming home, American sniper, and the messenger. Holy crap, dude. Real, raw, powerful. Scroll up a little chuck, because there's more. Oh, you mean this way? No. You mean this way?

Yeah, there's a couple at the top. Yeah, there you go. Oh, there's just, oh, yeah. I mean, dude, this, one of the best films of the year, a rare perfect film. Oh, I know. I mean, come on. That's got to make you blush. I mean, it does.

I want to tell you, I really mean this, like, because even, I mean, it's not. at the awards that we won on the film festival circuit, like, because right now I'm feeling a little shaky just talking about this. This is almost gross. I don't believe you. This is ridiculous. These are these love letters. Look at the two of you there. Every time that we've ever won an award, we're typically shocked. And I say that because there's a machine out there. And I know you know this. You've been in the business a long time. And just to lighten things up a little bit, because I'm going to tell you. So we went to the Beverly Hills Film Festival. It was one of We were very fortunate.

We screened there. Tons of veterans came out. We were sold out, 250-seat theater. I had first responders, Vietnam veterans. Like, we had already, that night, we won the night. It was emotional. The impact was great. The next day is the award ceremony.

So I show it with Matt Dallas. You know, it's at the Beverly Hilton, you know, where they do the globes. And, you know, we show up. And our table is at the very back corner, literally beside the bus stand. You had to, there's a, there was a really, I. I took photos because I was like, my mom won't believe this. And my wife won't believe it. There was a railing.

We had to go underneath the railing on the way to the bathroom, bus stand to get to it. And I said to Matt, enjoy the champagne. We're not going to win anything tonight. I said they never would have put us here. Sure. And they're serving as MREs. Right, right. So it's just like, you know, glamorous thing and, you know, the whole thing, everybody's black tie or whatever.

And we're just just there, just trying to take in the moment, you know, we had a great night. again the night before we already felt like we had won and they call my name for for breast screenplay and i was it was that moment of like was it did they say me and matt's like you got to get up there go go so i get up there and you're like on a jumbotron you know on each side and you're like and you got to understand from where i'm coming from everything i've been through on this project that couldn't be more wildly far from anything that you ever thought right so you're up there and I had nothing prepared. I just, you know, speak from as you wouldn't, you know.

And I just spoke from my heart. And then a few awards later, they call Best Actor. And again, I'm like, this has got it. There's this. I feel like I'm being punked. So I go up there. So it's you. Yeah.

Best screenwriter, Best actor. Best screenwriter, best actor. And I was so nervous up there. I even bumped the microphone with my chin. I'm like, oh, sorry to the, you know, MC and everything. And let me tell you, a full circle moment. We're at the afterpart. And wait a minute, no best director?

They got to spread those awards out. They got to spread those awards out. You can't be greedy. Hey, we were the only film that took two awards on that night. And did you have to climb over the railing to get to it? You know, I'm not joking. I had it like this and I had one arm and I put it on the table. And if you, if anyone out there doesn't believe me, I'll have to release footage of it.

But look. I want to see that. That's hysterical. Yeah. But you know what, though? for us, we had such a good laugh about it. And then at the after party, you know, I have a young child. And I said to Matt, you know, I got to get home to my wife and I'm just really tired and everything. But we'll say thank you to everybody. And then I got to go.

I'm not sure you understand how Hollywood works. Right. I know. But I just like, I don't, I get, I'm, I was never, look, I ran a moving company while people like, I didn't go to the Hollywood Hills parties and stuff like that. I was always focused on the work. But I will tell you, I'm standing there with the awards. Matt's gone to the bar to get a beer and the seas part and who walks towards me it looks like John Voigt but I've worked with John it's not John

and the guy's like a foot shorter and I'm like why do I know and he said hey how are you I just want to say it was really moved by your speech you know in my career I had the good fortune to do a film that dealt with our Vietnam veterans

and just in that moment I'm like Mr. Savage, John Savage. Good grief. Beer Hunter John Savage? Yes, and I'm like floating above my body. I'm like put down the awards, Matt, Matt, Matt, like Matt Dallas, get over here. Don't worry about the beer, get over here, right? He comes over and we had this great moment together.

And I said to him, you have to understand how surreal this is for us because we've watched that film so many times. It's his film in a lot of ways. I said to Matt Dallas, when I wanted him to first watch that film over a decade ago, I said, if we can have the same humanity in our characters as John Savage has, we'll be in good shape. We'll be in good shape. And I was able to tell that to him to his face. And it was emotional.

I was like, that's it. Anything that happens now, we don't have the money for the Hollywood machine to spend $50,000 in L.A. Times articles and variety and all this kind of stuff. We don't have that. I just hope that we're the people's movie, and that's all we can be. I just hope that the men and women that we set out to represent, the Gold Star families, the first responders, their families that have committed their lives to service and sacrifice, that's all I care about. And if we've done them solid, then we're going to be okay. Well, look, you've done them solid, for sure. But you've made a movie that can't be watched casually.

You know what I mean? It's like you don't put it on in the background, look up now and then see what's going on. You need to sit down and you take a deep breath. Take this for what it's worth, because people will watch with different agendas, and I think maybe for different reasons. I would have watched it.

Well, I mean, you were coming in, so of course I'm going to watch it. But out in the real world, I'm not sure what I would have done, Stephen, to be honest with you, because I've spent a lot of time in the space, and it always leaves me feeling like a giant pair of hands came down from the sky and just like rung me out.

And then just like said, okay now. And you think about all that. Count your blessings, you selfish bastard, right? Yeah. And so the movie is both a love letter to the people that portrays, but it's also a challenge to, the rest of us. And by the way, let's go there, because the rest of us includes me and you.

And I'll ask you a question I get all the time. And forgive me. Did you have an imposter syndrome going on ever? Did you ever feel? Not when we were filming, because I didn't have time to think about that. But, um... Because you didn't serve. And I didn't serve.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And I did, I think in the beginning... And you surrounded yourself with people who did. Yes. But I think that like, like, look. the performance is as good as it is because I didn't overthink it. I, my North Star, were the stories that both uplifted me, but for years haunted me in my own

nightmares. That was it. It was that simple. When I gave that monologue to Virginia Madsen about the Sheepin, that was one take. I had met with all the guys in that unit that had loosely inspired, many of the guys that had were in that unit that had inspired that story. There was never, I mean, when I delivered it, I saw it. I saw it all because I had heard so many different perspectives of how that all went

down. And then of course the time I spent with Brad Link in Pittsburgh where in 2011 I went and lived with him, I stayed in his sister's attic and I thought it was only going to be a day or two with him. I ended up staying with him for a month and he used couch cushions as military homes to like explain this particular operation and there's just certain things that stick with you when he talks about the crack and the sheet pen wall and how ominous it was so those things for years had haunted me so a two-foot crack

a two-foot crack in the wall that when he walked by it he had this awful feeling and it wasn't anything else but that and I started to see that in my own nightmares and amongst all the other stories over the years that have been shared with me. But I think that when you talk about imposter syndrome, look, it's a heavy lift. It was terrifying. It's still terrifying. You can read all the quotes and awards and everything, but it's not out there yet to the public. The response has been incredible from the veteran community on the film festival circuit all over the country.

But it's a heavy lift. And I know, like, just talking tonally about the film, there are parts that are very heavy. But I had to go to that place because in honoring the stories of those that were shared with me, I wasn't going to get into some of the movies that have been made in the genre that get into, for lack of a better term, blood and guts and so on. But I really had to go into the quiet spaces of trauma. It's not necessarily what's said. It's what's not said.

and I had to go there. That's not only what I saw, but if you're going to sit there and relate to something, I felt that that was my duty. So at these film festivals, we do a Q&A typically. When you have Vietnam veterans

that stand up, summon tears, and say, you eff and nailed it. And that's all they want to say, and they sit back down. When you have an OIF or an OEF that come up to you and hug you in tears, or say in front of,

of a full auditorium of people. I finally have a film to show my family why I am the way I am, but why they are the way they are, and then say, I wish I could show this to my ex-wife. You know? And so, like, it goes the full gamut, no question, but I hope the takeaway for folks when they see it is a few things. It's not a post-traumatic stress movie. It's a post-traumatic growth movie. You don't have to do it alone. You don't have to do it alone. You don't have to do it alone, but you have to do the work. You have to do the work. No shortcuts. I don't want to sound pompous, but just in what I saw, there isn't a shortcut. And I promise you, and I'll try not to be emotional about this, but I promise you, if you do the work, if you do the work, there is light at the end

of that tunnel. I promise you, I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand. And it's a work. And it's a worthy path. It's a worthy journey. And that's all I hope that people get out of it by the end. And if you're a civilian, the call of action is to be more connected in your community. Go up, if you have a veteran that lives on your street, how are you today? It's that simple, you know? And I think that that's our duty, I think, is civilians. And I'm hoping that the film, at the very least, I think if we can save a single life with the film. It'll be the greatest Hollywood success story. But if we can at least build the bridge with that gap between the civilian and the military and the veteran community, I think

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And I'll tell you something else. Two other men have sat where you're sitting. One you know for sure, Gary Sinise. Of course. And Gary said something very similar. And of course, he uses music the way you're using your film. It is a bridge. It's a reason.

It's a connector. The other one is Scott Mann. You know Scott? I don't know personally, no. Scott wrote the book about Pineapple Express. Yeah, Pineapple Express, right, about getting out of Afghanistan. Yes. He did this basically, oh, my God, the story's amazing, but he managed it from Florida, I believe, where he was living.

And he's getting calls and everything has gone to hell at Abbey Gate. and it's just so he did that but it still wasn't enough this is a Green Beret who saw all the things and did all the things and now he's home and now this happens and now today what is he doing

he's building bridges he's writing books so you got books you got music you've got film you have an artistic community who's trying as best they can to use the you know, the clay on their potter's wheel.

Yeah. Right? And then you've got all the citizens. And then, of course, you've got the cohort with whom we're most concerned. How bad is it? Like, what's your latest understanding of the stats? 17 a day, 20 a day? So when I started out on the journey, the report came out, I think, at 2012.

So in 13, 2013, they reported 22 a day. And, you know, that's an interesting thing, too. because at the time I was trying to get people to care as I was going into the research and so on and I would talk sometimes to the press, sometimes I would do local television. If you ever mentioned veteran suicide, you would literally have a producer behind the camera freaking out

like that wasn't on the docket. Why is he not talking about white chicks or whatever movie he's in? No shit. And you're like, oh wow. So then I looked into like, well, how do we make this palatable? And at the time, I was working with a VSO out of,

and that's a veteran service organization, out of Dallas. And at the time, we were going into recruitment centers, and we would videotape pushing out 22. And at the time, I think it was around the ice bucket challenge, and we were like, we should hashtag this. And this is the only way we can make it palatable that we thought anyway at the time to bring awareness to it. And it took about a year, I think,

or so to really take off and that's when because it started off we hashtagged it sweat for vets and then we changed it to 22 push-up challenge and you know a year later the Rock's doing it Chris Pratt's doing it that was you guys yes and and those things take on their own I did that did you yeah okay I did the push-up thing yeah well there you go and and I hope at the like look I want to be also honest like as the original architect of that with the group with the VSO that we worked with, I wasn't managing that weekly or something of where that mission, because what happens when those viral campaigns go, they turn

into something else, right? Where people are doing it for awareness, for all the right reasons. Some people do it for clicks, whatever it is, but as long as the message is getting out there, which was veteran suicide. And just for this small period of time, it seemed like we could talk about it. and and it's even going into press on this movie I feel like we're back to this place where we can't talk about it again

What is it you think? I mean you got to sell car commercials on the commercial break I don't think it I don't I don't know and do we, to be honest, as a viewer, do we just tune it out? We don't want to know what's behind the curtain

we don't want to know that that's ugly, that's scary I don't want to know that's also why when you have an all-volunteer military, which is such a small percentage of the population, it's those families that are carrying that weight for the rest of the country, right?

It's easier if it's over there. For sure. Look, well, I'll tell you, I've got to be very careful with this episode because I learned a lesson just a few months ago, like, with regard to, I mean, this will make the rounds. Sure. But it'll be on YouTube.

So I got to think about the thumbnail, And I got to think about the description because I went to Fredericksburg Taylor and I shot a story down there six months ago. Black Horse Forge, Steve Hots, former interior designer who signs up to fight

10, 12 years ago. 80 second airborne, breaks his back, lots of jumps, and then loses an eye. Comes home. And he's spiraling. And he sees this close to checking out. And he goes in his garage and he pulls out a forge,

which he's had for years and he fires it up. He just starts hammering metal. Old railroad ties, starts making knives, you know. And he finds the time compresses when he does this. And it gets out of his head. And his friends are struggling. And he calls them and they come over and they start making knives. They start forging.

This is probably nine years ago, 10 years ago, we started doing this. 22,000 vets have gone through the Black Horse Forge. Zero suicides. Yeah. Zero. Yeah.

Now, we shoot this story. We tell it, and we put it out there. And what pops up? A black screen instead of the thumbnail, which is important when you're out there and social, right? It's like your poster. Yeah. That P&A stuff matters, right?

Yes, it does. Print and advertising. Yeah. And so it's reporting. replaced, YouTube replaces it with a black screen that says warning, suicidal ideation, blah, blah, blah. It might as well have said, nothing to see here. Keep scrolling or you might become sad. Now, that's what we're dealing with. Yeah, okay. I'm really sorry. Well, because we'll fix it. But let's have the hard conversation. Well, I can have it.

let's talk about there's two sides to this in my own experience again a sense of purpose is very important to wake up in the morning you know that you've dedicated you know your life's work to this of providing jobs for people or inspiring people to get out there and work and feel useful that's so important and it's critical a sense of direction especially if you're coming out in the military you know there's structure and everything that you do in the military. And if you come out and you don't have that sense of structure, you don't have that sense of purpose, again, in my experience, it affects your self-worth. How can I be useful to myself, to my family, to my community, to my country? So that's a really unfortunate story. The second

part of it, though, is what's between your ears. And the whispers can lie. And I'm just telling you from personal experience that like when you take on, especially taking on everybody else's trauma, it affects you. I would go into restaurants. I couldn't have my back to the door. I was always watching people's hands, what's in their bags. You're hypervigilant, hypersensitive. And that's somebody who's not served. That's just somebody who was exposed to it for years, right? I think that what we need to try to do better, and again, I don't want to stand on a soapbox here, because I respect the heck out of what you're trying to do. And I do think that there's a lot of value.

And I know you know that. That sense of worth, that purpose, whatever it is that you're doing. You know, Michael Landon, wasn't he the actor from Little House in the Prairie who said to be the best ribbon tire, you know, best ribbon maker. I remember that story as a kid. And that stays with you. And I think that there's a lot of value in that. And I think that there has to be a balance. And then we've got to be able to talk about it about the psychological.

right, what you go through and how we manage that with the practical, with the physical. Whether that's physical fitness, your diet, job, whatever it is. Well, each according to his own. You know, you can make movies, I can make TV, Gary can make music, Scott can write books. Google and YouTube can just as easily throw gas on the content. as they can turn the dial down. It would be just as... It'd be a very simple matter for regal theaters,

just throwing out a name, could be any of them, to take your film and make it available for free on Veterans Day all over the country. It would be a relatively simple thing for Amazon or Netflix or HBO or Macs or Roku to do the same thing. Yeah.

So, you know, I don't think it's enough to fight for equal treatment. Honestly, I think that, and this gets a little icky, and I'm not sure how to navigate it. Sure. You know, but it's,

if your film is viewed purely as an entertainment property, then we miss all of the upside of a public service announcement. If it's seen as a public service announcement, it's a lecture, and nobody wants that, and nobody wants a sermon. Right. It has to be both.

And so it's a monumental struggle, I think, for artists of all stripes. What we could use collectively is the kind of corporate enthusiasm. Yes. Yes. And that's... Yeah. I mean... Yeah, and that's why I think it's unfortunate, again, without seeing the video that that would ever happen.

It was a feel-good video. I can only imagine. And you probably were like, what is going on? What world am I living in? That this that could potentially help somebody would just be... by, that segment will save lives as surely as your film will.

Guaranteed. And I can't even point to some dastardly maniacal bean counter in the corner twirling his mustache. It's not that. It's an algorithm. Yeah.

It's garbage in, garbage out. And somebody is painting with a very broad brush. Yeah. And we're covering up a lot of really important things. And it's dumb.

You know, it's dumb. But this is a... But I want to talk to you, though, and I agree with all of that. I do. want to say, like, in the corporate aspect of things, we did partner, we're announcing this soon, but we did partner with vet ticks, right? Great. It's a 501c3. VetTicks has committed their mission to creating memories that last forever for veterans, first responders, and their families. Get you out

of your house. You want to go see a country music or, you know, a concert or, you know, your favorite sporting event. They do that. We're the first film they've ever partnered with on this. And we had to go out there and find those relationships because we knew we weren't going to get them in the system, just as you're saying, we knew we weren't going to get that. We had already experienced, we had more than a decade of the nose and people, you know, not wanting to help you out. We have an incredible VSO coalition corporate sponsors that have come in that see the need, especially for the veterans that they might employ. You know, Navy Federal Credit Union has already purchased $20,000 worth of tickets through vet tics to send veterans first responders to their

families to the movies. Terrific. So we're finding ways. I know that it's not going to be easy, but nothing on this journey has been, you know? So I kind of go into it of like, you know, we just work our butts off, keep our heads down, and hope that the message and what we're trying to do reaches folks. Forgive me for thinking like a marketeer. I can't help it.

Yeah. Tell the vets who see the film with a vet tick To take their phone out after the movie Yeah And record their honest reaction to it Find a place where they can upload those videos With the proper releases And then start building

The kind of campaign Yeah That is just brutally and relentlessly Transparently authentic Yeah And you start putting together 30, 90, two-minute clips of vets with tears of gratitude in their eyes, saying straight to their cameras, I felt alone and

now I don't. Somebody finally gets it. I wish my ex-wife could have seen this. I wish my kids could see this and so forth. And look, I don't have a crystal ball, but I've got a pretty good idea, I think, of what is persuasive today. And anything other than that feels like Mark. It feels. Yeah. It feels like P&A. Shameless plug. Long before she was Peggy Roe, my mom was Peggy Noble,

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That's code Carl with a C to get nine sugar cubes, ingeniously engineered to make nine perfect old-fashions every time. It's my favorite way to support Microworks and my favorite whiskey to sip responsibly after a long day of interviewing people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirits.com, k-n-o-b-E-L-Spirates.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. Yeah, and the thing is, and I appreciate you saying that,

we began to do that on the festival circuit because we were seeing such a profound reaction. So Vietnam veterans, if you know, you go to our Instagram, or TikTok, you'll see veterans of all generations sharing their heartfelt feelings now to build upon what you said with vet ticks. First of all, if you sign up for vet ticks and you're a veteran or you go to first ticks and you're a first responder, you, as I said, you can get entered into these lotos for different things, you know, and then they notify you if you're, one of the people that get the tickets, you know, you can get up to three other family members can come with you. But what they do to incentivize and encourage you to share your experience, which only helps the community, if you really loved something, right, if you went to a concert, a sporting event, or now our movie, and had an experience that you felt was unforgettable or worth sharing, if you posted on social media, they actually give you basically tokens, if you will,

towards other events, to encourage you to do that, to be willing to put yourself out there. right? But I do, to build on what you said, that is the grassroots that we hope for, campaign, because we don't have the big Hollywood marketing dollars. We don't have that machine working for us. And like I said, this was always about ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, and I just, I hope that sheepdog becomes the people's movie. I hope it does, too. When can the people see it? It'll be in select theaters this December and the nationwide in January. How excited are you?

Very nervous. Sure. But I'm mostly honored. Who's your favorite Canadian actor? John Candy. Oh, man. Have you seen the documentary? Not yet.

But I can tell you as a kid, summer rental. I can watch that even as an adult. It's a masterpiece. What was it the whole, I mean the Second City TV? Oh, like SCTV. But even Uncle Buck, I mean, he had some, he shows up in movies like, oh, in planes, trains, and automobiles? That's Oscar.

That's Oscar worth. He was heartbreaking in that. And to hear, I saw Steve Martin interviewed about that, and he just couldn't have been more effusive about the whole thing. But he said that, there's an incredible scene where he basically comes clean and tells Steve Martin. Yeah. You know, who he is.

Yeah. His wife's been dead for 10 years. Yeah. He's just been living on the road. And Steve said, I think that's the scene. If I'm wrong, it's one that comes a little later on the street. But it, like, it was so much longer. Yeah.

And he said, it's the only time I've ever agreed that, okay, it's tighter, shorter. But it felt like we were cutting into, something kind of sacred. Yeah. And I wish I could see that. That moment and that crazy moment when they're driving down and they're going the wrong way. And he screams, he looks over and all he sees this is the skeleton version of his head. Yeah.

I fell out of my chair laughing. John Kennedy was a freaking genius. Yeah, no, he was it. He could break your heart and make you laugh in the same moment. Oh, yeah. I mean, he shows up even in, doesn't he show up in like he had a cameo? in Home Alone. Oh, yeah.

And he just, that was all improvised from what I understand. And he just riffs. And he, but you know what it is? Like, yes, he's a comedic genius, right? But it's like his humanity. Oh, man. It just comes out. It just like, yeah.

Heart, sleeve. Yes. Here you are. Yeah. And he's, he was so, it's so interesting to hear him talk about his weight and how he was really hurt by the way people, couldn't not ask him about it. They just couldn't not ask him about it.

And yeah, man, and I think that the story goes, and I hope I'm right about this, that he was also aware of the health issues in his family. So there was something that came across that he felt like or knew he was on board time, as we all are, but maybe a shorter time span. And I think he just loved hard

and gave it everything he had. Yeah. What about Nathan Philean? You know Nathan? I don't. Canadian boy. No, I don't know. The guy who was on Castle and...

No, I don't... The rookie. He's on the rookie right now, but he was famous for... Castle, wasn't it? Yeah, but before that, he plays Malcolm in that... In the Josh Whedon, big, freaking space cowboy movie. It's huge. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't... What's he thinking of? Yeah. What? No, before Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh, man, he's listening out. He's a friend of mine before that. Right around Galaxy Quest.

Right around. You got to find it, Chuck's going to drive you nuts. What about Jimmy doing from Star Trek? He's Canadian. Are we talking? I don't, look, William Shatner is, isn't he? William Shatner is Canadian. I mean, no disrespect.

Oh, you're going to tell me how young you are now? No, I just like, I don't know that. Are you so young, Stephen, with the funny Miss Bell last name? So young. I don't know that. But I mean, you know, a lot, I guess also, too, let's be honest, a lot of great comedians came out of Canada. You know, Jim Carrey, Mike Myers. Sure.

You know, everybody from SCTV and Second City, you know, so I think, like, those become your sort of like... Your touchstones. Yeah, your folk heroes almost. Like you're, you know, and hey, you know, the humor and the joy that they've brought so many people but that was kind of, those were my, like, you know, there's serious actors that I like and so on, but, you know, that was, you know. Serenity. Serenity?

Pretty sure the ship was called Serenity. Oh, yeah, it's Firefly. Firefly. Fy fly. Yeah. Well, you got your work cut out. You got to go home. I know, I got to do.

It sounds like I got a dip in your homework. Yeah. You're probably going to have to rewatch Star Trek with a particular emphasis on Scotty. Who was at Normandy and who was shot? I think it's a cigarette riddled. He got shot to pieces

blew his finger off. Yeah. Yeah, you never noticed that in Star Trek. Scotty, he's got No, I have to look, he's got a missing finger. Yeah,

yeah, left it in France. Wow. I mean, he really did. Yeah. But talk about a tear-jurker. I'll leave you with this, man. Talk about man's humanity to man. That guy,

that guy spoke at conventions, Star Trek conventions all over the country. And he took a phone call from a fan who was at the end of her rope and basically telling him, look, I'm going to end my life, but I've always so admired you and I've so loved your work. And I just wanted to call you and tell you that. And he hits her with all this reverse psychology asking her, well, how's she going to do it?

You know, and blah, blah, blah, and really freaks her out. And then says, look, I don't have time for this. If you want to meet me and discuss the details of your demise, there'll be a ticket waiting for you at the convention center up in Boston. And so this woman comes. Oh, my God. And they talk. And she comes to four, five, six subsequent Star Trek conventions.

And they've become friends. And then she drops out of his life for years. And then he gets a call. over a decade later. She's healthy. She's married. Second kid's on the way. Thanks for saving my life, Jimmy Dillon.

I'm so glad that story ended that way. That takes a lot of courage to handle it that way, to come in at it that way. He must have known enough about it, though. I don't mean about her personal life, but about the struggle. That's right. He knew enough to be able to go in there,

and here's why that ties in. You don't say thank you for your service. In a moment like that. The trauma therapist that I studied with for sheepdog, some of their tacks, I was really uncomfortable with. I bet. Or I was like, you know, I would say we would like, I do work with them all day at the VA and we'd go up for a beer later and I would be like, hey, I just wanted to like kind of talk to you

about that. Like, do you think that was okay? Like that tact was a little either abrasive or like, like, there's a lot on the line here. And, you know. Precisely. Thank you. That's exactly what they would say. There's everything.

on the line. Right. And I'll never forget, standing in the cafeteria at the Detroit VA, a five, or six-foot-five corpsman pointing across the room of the cafeteria to a five-foot, and I only mention size because you have to think of a warrior, right? A five-foot-tall trauma therapist, and he says, that lady right there saved my life. And I find that, and she was someone that had a very different, I would say unorthodox, unique tact in there, just as you mentioned of this gentleman. Well, you know what you call her? That'd be a sheepdog.

Yes. Great movie. It's only going to save a bunch of lives. But the important thing is you got two awards, and I hope those wind up on a mantle someplace where... Yeah. Well, it's an embarrassment of riches, but we have 50s. 15. Oh, geez.

Yeah. And I only say that because it matters to the other film festivals. Omaha, Iowa, all over the country. Yes. We're grateful. Naples, Florida. But I, yes, and I mean this when I say this, those aren't ours. They are not ours. Those are the people that we represent in the film. They're alone. Sure. You're a custodian. Thank you. But they, if that can help elevate the message and the awareness of the film, we're filled. the brim. Sorry, I know we're over, but last question. Sure. Because I ask it out loud when I watched your movie last night.

What did it feel like at the very, very, very, very, very end to see yourself on Larry King 13 years ago? Yeah. Talking about what this thing might turn into. So first off, when I look at that Larry King clip, I laugh in the beginning because I'm wearing a T-shirt in there. and Matt's wearing a suit coat and why that was was because we were racing

to get to a studio, I left my jacket, I was all flustered, I get there, I'm sitting in his makeup chair accidentally, it was like that. And so when I got in front of them, you know, I was just dialed in of like, I'm here to talk about the subject matter and that's what we're in.

And so when I look at that and I think of like, one, how young we look in it, but also I just look like a fish out of water because I was. You were. I was. But you knew the mission. but I did and I have to say this because you know I know Larry did a lot of work for veterans like

he took a shot just as you're doing here today which I'm so grateful for he took a shot on us and and he you know most people that are going to be watching this they don't know who I am right and they don't need to that's okay but providing this platform for us I look at that Larry King clip and I I am filled with gratitude and I I also think of we had been on the road at that point for two or three months. So we were literally just coming off it. And I can see my family jokes about this because how direct I was with him where I was like, I would sit there and I would listen. Or I would say, well, think about it, Larry. And I wasn't saying that to be condescending. I was exhausted. And everything that had been shared with me on that road trip, right? And I was frustrated.

And I was angry. And I was motivated. And when I see those clips at the end of our movie, That's what I see. You know, as much as I agree and believe that people need rest and are better off when they're rested, there's no denying the long list of great things that have happened because exhausted people kept pushing. You're tired right now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm tired all the time.

Yeah. I mean, I fell asleep 20 minutes ago, man. I don't know. But I will say it's a good tired. I'm the father. I have a beautiful son. He's healthy. my wife's happy, healthy, and here we are,

and we're able to talk about this meaningful and beautiful film. And, like, it is a labor of love. It's a blessing. I'm going to spend 2026, you know, catching up on rest from 14 years, but it'll be well worth it. Final, final, final. Okay. For those people who are just listening and not watching,

you're probably saying, who is this? Who am I listening to? Who's the guy selling? And maybe could it be Matt Damon? Well, it's not Matt Damon, but even watching the movie, they're like five times. Now, maybe it was the Boston thing.

I didn't go hard into the pain on that, though. No, you didn't. Because I was like, it'll be farcical. Nobody's going to buy it. And we already saw Goodwill hunting. Yeah. But I was like, my father-in-law, he's an industrial tow truck driver,

and I love him to death, and he kind of has that accent. So I'm around him a lot, right? And so that's where that kind of, you kind of pick up on. And it just gently sort of like... Are you telling me, I had to wait for 90 minutes

to learn that your dad is an industrial tow truck driver, and your moment on the road to Damascus happened, basically, with a tow truck driver? That opening shot bringing you into the paper mow? Yeah. That's who's behind the wheel of that truck. That was my father-in-law. And the man doesn't miss his mark. We lined it up.

You cannot make this up. The cinematic gods blessed us that day. It was like six in the morning. The sky opened just as he was coming through frame, because that was my homage to Deer Hunter. Sure. I wanted the truck to come in and hit you hard, the sound of the diesel engine to bring you in, and then you push past it, and there's the paper mill, right?

And that was him. We could get on the walkie with him, and I'm like, you got it. You're wrapped for the day. He's like, that's it, you know. But yes, I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by Salt of the Earth people who work very hard. And my wife, you know, comes from a military family. Both of her brothers are combat veterans that served in OIA. Vanessa.

Boy's name? River. Vanessa, River, you should be proud of the old man. You did a good thing, man. Your movie's going to save lives, that's for sure. Pity about your last name, but people will get over that. Yeah. Keep an eye out for the film.

It's called Sheep Dog. It's awesome. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks, Mike. Anytime. This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long,

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