The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 465: James Woods—Act Two

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

Acclaimed actor James Woods joins TWIHI for a candid conversation that goes far beyond his iconic film roles. Woods addresses his cancellation from Hollywood and how it inspired his life's second act, making music. He also recounts a shocking, nearly fatal accident involving a walk through a glass door, and he doesn't pull any punches when it comes to letting us know what he thinks about how Gavin Newsom has handled the aftermath of the Palisades Fire. 

Hello, Chuck. Hello, Mike. Well, you were right. Why do you say that? It's not that I thought James Woods wouldn't be a great guest. I've been interested in his career for as long as I've been watching movies. Terrific actor. He's really, really good.

Really, really good. And I'm somewhat sympathetic to the fact that his political views, which he is not terribly shy about, have burned him in Hollywood. Yeah. And in our industry. To a degree, I think that really no reasonable person could argue with. Yeah, I think that's the case is that he was blacklisted. He tells the story of how he was released from his agency unceremoniously and kind of dickishly, if I may use that as a... Yes. Look, I mean, if you're keeping a list of reasons why agents are sometimes spoken of on this podcast without the absolute utmost level of respect. This will confirm all of that. That's not to say there aren't many wonderful representatives out there in the 10% century. It's just that it's just that

when the chips were really down and you have a client as gifted as Jim. Yeah. And you have a tumultuous time in the country, as we have clearly been experiencing now for over a decade. Yeah. You know, you ought to have some loyalty. There ought to be some loyalty baked in to the professionalism of that kind of relationship. And there wasn't. Yeah, and it's not just that. It's this idea that because you don't think the same way that I do, we can't be friends. We can't work together.

We can't separate, you know, someone's talent from their political views. And that's just a shame. I don't remember it like that when we were growing up. I don't either. But you know what? Sometimes you look through the charm of nostalgia or vert schmaltz, and, you know, that's why we call it the way I heard it, the way we remember it. I don't know.

Look, these will be the good old days, 50 years from now. But I'll tell you, they were not good days for James Woods this last decade. Few careers, I think, have ever been marked by more talent and then more goodbye. Yeah. Sorry. There are no fish for you today. done. Well, the interesting thing about this guy, and the reason I wasn't hesitant to have him on, I just felt like here of late, you know, with Del Big Tree and Gavin DeBecker, they get so angry with

me because I talk to people that, you know, may have said something that they don't agree with. And I'm just, I don't mean to wander outside my lane, but I don't care as much as I used to. And when you first pitch Jim, I was like, you know what, do I really need the hassle that's going to come from talking to a guy who's so despised by half of the social media denizens. Can I tell you that when I finally made contact with him, it was because I was trying to gather letters of recommendation for Gary Senees to be awarded the Medal of Freedom. And he called me, and we spoke for like 25 minutes, he couldn't do it fast enough. He wrote me a letter.

Like, we got off the phone, and that letter was in my email box, you know. within like 15 minutes. Yeah. He was so excited to do it. He's a sweet, sweet guy. He's very smart. He's very artistic. He is a patriot.

He would never describe himself as a cons. I don't even think he sees himself as right of center. He's a centrist who just feels like he's living in bizarro world. I just didn't feel like apologizing for it. So he basically walked away. He could have bent the knee. Yeah. Right. He had plenty of occasions to walk some things back and resume his career. But he didn't. In fact, I was going to call this James Woods didn't bend the knee because he didn't. But we're calling it James Woods Act II instead because he's embarked on a musical career that is shocking. He doesn't play the guitar anymore since an injury that he'll discuss. And he doesn't really sing, although he can carry a tune. But as it turns out, he can write. And in a strange,

collaboration with Wayland Jennings son, Shooter Jennings. Yep. They've released an album. Yeah. And now he's just finished another album. And the guy is basically writing his autobiography to music. The music is excellent. And I'm delighted to see this guy at 78 years of age come out as a recording artist.

After all this time, after El Salvador or Salvador. Salvador, yeah. After, you know, ghosts of Mississippi. Yeah. After, I mean, just down the list it goes, after all those great movies and then a very tragic fallow period, here he is, a recording artist. And as it turns out, a super interesting guy who's a refugee at the moment with his lovely wife, Sarah, who you'll sort of meet as well. They're living in a motel. Yeah, one-bedroom thing because of the fires.

The fires, yeah. Now, their house wasn't destroyed, but it's just hideous up there. Yeah, they can't move back in. Yeah, they can't move back in there. He's very upset with Gavin Newsom, and I'm very sympathetic, and he doesn't hold back in that regard. But again, I don't think you're going to hear much that's political. You're going to hear a lot that's passionate, and you're going to hear a lot that's artistic. Strap in, because this is not what you call an homage to chronology. It's a garden hose on the lawn at full board, just going in every direction. But the water is sweet and cool. And drink from the hose, my friends. And you shall be refreshed right after this. Well, are you sick of it yet?

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Isn't it crazy how you can walk in to a studio with guys who know what they're doing and go from like a blank slate to a song in light speed. I am so glad you brought this up because I think that, you know, aside from thanking my unbelievable wife and shooter who just made this all possible, and I'll tell you about the evolution of that. By the way, the aforementioned wonderful wife is called Sarah Without an H, I believe. Sarah without an H.

Is it because... I believe it's no H. Oh, no age. No H. Sarah with no age. Sarah no age. Well, the way that came about, by the way, time out on this story. She was at Starbucks or the coffee place.

And a nice young barista lady said, and what's your name? She said, Sarah, no age. She said, okay. Gets the cup back and S-A-R-A-N-O-H, Sarah, no-H. Of course. I mean, see, that's how true monikers are born. Yeah. I mean, who knows, I don't want to intrude into your personal life.

But if she doesn't become no-H in shorthand, at some point down the road, then, you know, then Starbucks doesn't have a real purpose. She is just the smartest, brightest, most wonderful person. You know, right now we've been evacuated because of the Palisades fire. Yeah. We have a beautiful home in the Palisades. And, of course, Gavin Newson and Karen Bass managed to find a way through their criminal negligence.

Yes, I mean that. He's coming in hot folks. I'm coming in hot. James Woods, just for the record. And I'm not going to land. I'm going to keep flying. I'm going to stay right over the battlefield, and I'm going to have the gunner on this door,

and the gunner and this or on it. Way we go. Metaphor. Well, if you're not taking flack, you're not over the target. Yeah, yeah. They give me a little flack back. That's okay. But, you know, before they, with their egregious negligence, destroyed our neighborhood in the homes of people who grew up there and took 29 lives between that and the Eden fires. Before all that, we had this magnificent, beautiful home overlooking the water and so on. And now we're, you know, we've been evacuated a little bit. Is evacuation a partial thing? I mean, it strikes me as a bit like a Just the Tip reference.

You're either in or you're out. You're either evacuated or you aren't. We've been living in a one-bedroom hotel room, which is fantastic that people have been great to us, not our home. The fires were January 7th of this year. On February 5th, we were negotiating with the California Fair plan. whom we have just retained a lawyer to sue. And the lady who was helping us said, well, you know, we can't give you a relocation fee after February 5th

because you should have been back in your home then. Said there was no water in the palisades anywhere then. Big signs, water, if running, is not potable. There was no electricity, no gas. And she literally said, well, you know, you can drink bottled water. I said the hillside is still smoldering. Literally, we went down there. some firefighters, and I said, oh my God, the wood on our hillside, the beams holding up the,

the fire-resistant beams holding up the hillside, we're still smoldering, literally. We pulled them up and, oh, look that person to find. I got to ask you, man, I can't. I mean, we'll circle back to the music thing in a minute and the speed with which a song can come out of the ether. But in a very similar way, I was here January 7th last year. In fact, I was standing on the roof of this building, probably watching your place burn. And how in the world has it been a year? How did, I mean, for me, it felt like it feels like

two months ago. Wrong question. How on earth has it been almost a year since January 7th? And they've done nothing. And that sanctimonious two-phase jazz hand slickster Gavin Newsom, you know, so we've put everything back together. And Sarah literally, went, we drove out there, and she took pictures of every single, the very few framed houses. He would go out and say, look, we're rebuilding everything, and he'd stand in front of one house. And there were like 10 houses out of the 16,000 that burned between the two, between the Palisades and Eaton. And, you know, it turned out that those 10 houses out of, in our neighborhood, almost 8,000, all had permits before the fire. They've done nothing. They've absolutely done nothing.

And there's a reason why, and I'm just going to say it, because I hope, in fact, that, you know, people will look into it. Is it possible? And this is conspiracy theory. But the great news about living in America these days is if you've, you know, believed in almost any conspiracy theory in the past 10 years, lo and behold, you've been right. Yeah. What a shock. It turns out that they want to build low-income housing, which sounds great and noble. We've given them billions of dollars to build low-income housing.

to build low-income housing around Los Angeles, nothing has been done, virtually nothing. I mean, they may point to one structure where each little tiny room costs $560,000. I'm not sure of that exact number. But they don't do anything. It's like the fire aid money that magically disappeared, except the $2.5 million he gave to his first partner,

you know, Harvey's old girlfriend. And so, you know, where did that money all go? The bottom line, we're just basically stuck with, you know, a guy who wants to do this noble thing, low-income housing, which gets built, never used for low-income people, then the cronies and so on. This is a conspiracy theory. I don't know if this is true, but it's been postulated. Then they say, well, you know, we built all this. We might as well start leasing it out to other people, instead of the low-income people, and they charge exorbitant prices. And any time you have the government involved with contractors building stuff,

you can just watch that money fly away like it has wings. It's not, it's not conspirator to look at that and then look at the high speed rail and the way it was presented. It's not conspirator to look at that and then look at the billions that were pushed toward the homeless situation.

Billions. And so, yeah, obviously there's graft. Obviously, it's a failure. But the thing that interests me most of all is the presentation of the possibility. Here's what we're going to do. And that's where acting and politics and graft and pretense and guile collide in my view. And so do you know Elaine Kalati?

No, no. She's sat where you've sat. She lives in your neighborhood. She's, I don't want to speak out of turn, but I believe she's been very successful in the real estate world. And she's getting involved in this. Adam Carolla, you must have. He's been great. He's been great pointing out.

He's been, I don't know that anybody who's written heard on this better or more consistently. Of all people, the last person you would expect. You know, you always hear these guys tell stories. My father was in two wars. It was in a lot of combat. And the guy that, I even wrote a new song about it. It's not for this album. It's for two albums from now because we're doing the third album in February.

But in the fourth album, there's a song called Rodney and Carl about these two kind of dofy guys. And you're always, the last guy you expect to be the hero. give his life is the one they all made fun of. A hero will rise. And a hero will rise. And I have to say Spencer Pratt, Spencer Pratt has been like one of the lyrics from my first album, like a diamond bullet to the brain. This guy has put that message out there. Was Spencer the reality show guy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a reality show guy. Also our president of the United States, one of the greatest we've ever had currently, our current president was also a reality show guy who finally stepped into the breach and managed to close a border that everybody said,

well, our border is fine. Don't worry about the 20 million people came in, unvetted, you know, unvaccinated criminal records for the fifth time. Don't worry about that. It's fine. They're not going to cause any trouble. Do you mind if I just freelance and totally free associate talk? Because clearly that's, by the way, I'm walking over here today and I'm just like,

okay, James Woods. I've wanted to talk to you for. Oh, thank you. I wanted to talk to you too. A long time. But you're challenging because every couple of people. a couple of weeks something new happens that kind of maybe eclipses the thing that I thought I wanted to talk to you about before. And coming up the elevator, I'm like, he's got these albums now.

He's doing this whole second act. He's got this beautiful bride with no age and her first name. He's amazing. He's lost his home in the palisades. He's living in the town that made him famous, but also turned his back on him. You have been a prodigal in so many ways. And yet, like here you sit with all this humor, all this en wee, and a lot of perspective and not a hint of, obviously you got no governor, you got no editor, you're going to say whatever you say, the minute it occurs to you to say it. That's extraordinarily freeing, I think. But my question is, chat GPT says your IQ is between 180 and 184. That's 184. Get out of you. On the Stanford B'nai IQ test that I took when I was.

was actually getting my scholarship to MIT. For some reason, I was at the same time, I had been nominated to the Air Force Academy by Senator John Pestori. And for some reason, one of them along the way, I had wanted to be, we've got to go back a little bit, I'd want to be an eye surgeon. I thought that's what I'd like to be in life.

Now, so why did I ask to be nominated the Air Force Academy? No, no. Why did you want to be an eye surgeon? How does that happen? Because I think that the gift of sight is the most extraordinary thing, and I can't imagine what it's like to be infirm or blind in that area. For some reason, that's what I wanted to do.

And I happened to have gotten also eight-year scholarships to Brown University, Johns Hopkins, and Tufts, all of which had great medical schools. And they gave me undergraduate all the way through graduate school. This is great. Then I ran through a glass door and severed every tendon, the median nerve, and the radial artery. I have no pulse, if you hold your hand there. And that was the end of my surgery days. It's also the end of my classical guitar days.

I have a hard time playing. Why'd you run through a glass door? Because I was, you know, 17 years old. Did you not see it? No, here's what the deal. I tell you exactly what it was. I was one of 30 people, young kids, all juniors in high school,

who for the summer between junior and senior year, got a National Science Foundation grant to study linear algebra, which is kind of higher form of math, at UCLA. And they put us up and paid for our trip and everything. It was great. We're studying kind of nerds, you know, nerd summer school. And we were at Dykstra Hall.

And, you know, like the sophisticated students that we were, you know, embracing mathematics and science. Arthur D. Davis and I from Arthur D. Davis from Kentucky were running down the hallway, throwing water balloons at each other. That's what you do when you're studying higher math. And when you're just dealing with 184 IQ points. Right. There's nothing really left to do. But fill up the rubber device. And I turned to go through a glass door to push the glass door.

And this is before they had tempered glass, and I pushed through. And a big short of glass is, one, it's slice my radial artery. And if you've ever had arterial bleeding, it literally sweats to the wall with your heartbeat. And I was wearing a white sweatshirt. We got down, we're on the third floor. We got down to the lobby. Believe it or not, we made the potentially death decision to go down. in the elevator, but luckily the doors open. We got in. It went right down. The doors open again.

I walk out and there were two students, probably my age, 17, 18, whatever, but a little older because it was, you know, the college students there for the summer. And they saw me covering blood in a white sweatshirt shirt, which now soaked in blood, and they literally both fainted to the floor. Wrong vocation for you. Yeah. And then luckily, the next thing I know, I'm getting a little dizzy and I'm on the floor and I just hear a guy say I'm a medical student this is going to be a little tight and pulls out my belt puts on a tourniquet put me in the back of a police car because they didn't have time to wait for the for the ambulance and I swear to you when we got to UCLA they were waiting I never forgot this waiting in the driveway there was a nurse and a resident and he literally had a pair of

clamps in he reaches in pulls out the artery and clamps it and at that moment I knew I was going to make it. But my life changed. Well, your life was saved. My life was saved, yes. Do do do do do do do do My guest today, Tom Albanyce is an American giant, and I'll tell you why. Tom understands on a fundamental level that the business of mining is a non-negotiable prerequisite of our civilization and our economic independence, just like the business of making things. American Giant knows this, which is why they committed themselves 16 years ago to make all their excellent clothing right here in this country. It wasn't easy, but they did it. They sourced locally grown cotton, and they built factories in towns across the nation where they could hire hardworking

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Use code Mike. Get 20% off your order at American dash giant.com slash Mike. American Giant American Made. American Giant American Made. Well, two questions. First, Sarah, no age. What's it like living with a genius on a scale of one to ten? No, I'll tell you, because she's the genius.

But it's like, it's fabulous. No, no, I got to answer this one. I got to answer it. So we're in our evacuated, you know, in our one-bedroom hotel room. It was lovely. He had a little kitchen. She can make anything on a hot plate and an air fryer. I mean, honestly, we're like a little nation or two.

I swear to God. People say, oh, she's, I know why you're with her and you're why she's with it. We just spent all our time together. She's just remarkable. Yeah, I got it. But she's so smart. She's so funny. She's so talented.

Great photographer. Like, do crosswords together, acrostics, like Cidogos? No, because she's smarter than I am, but, you know, don't tell anybody out there. So I'm sitting there. And I go, hey, what are you doing? You know, because it's like she's a room away. I want to make sure, you know, I haven't lost her. She goes, I'm just, I said, what?

She said, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I said, Sarah, you know, you're doing this. I'm pretty, I'm coming in. I'm going to come in there. I'm going to get an answer. I said, what are you doing? I said, I'm writing. You're writing? What are you writing?

He says, I'm writing a novel. I said, do you have like any pages? She was, I've got like nine chapters done and got the outline. I said, hold on. You're living at a one-bedroom, hotel room. Where did you get the time and write nine pages? What kind of stand-up comedian would you be? You're the straight man.

What happened next? What happened next, James Woods? Well done. I said, wait a minute. I'm sitting on the couch in there playing poker online illegally. Like a genius. Go ahead. Right, right.

Like a genius. You know, getting my ass handed to me. That's okay. I can afford it. And I go, I'm sorry. And you're writing a novel? She said, I'm writing my fifth novel. I said, hold on a second. When were you writing the other four?

She goes, you know, you were busy being you, thinking about you, you know, not the world around you most of the time. I say, okay, no, but seriously. She goes, yeah. I said, well, can I read this one? She goes, you can read the nine chapters. So I said, okay, but first of all. Sarah. You know, like, I'm a producer, the executive producer of Oppenheimer for crying out loud.

I'm big. You know, all I did was I recommend. American Prometheus. Yeah, we had the book. Actually, my partner had the book, David Wargo. Yeah. But we knew each other from MIT, from an MIT, not at MIT, but from MIT. And he said, look, I'm not in the business. Long story short, he just said, can you help me get this movie made? And it took us five years, but I finally got it to my friend, Chuck Roven, in the middle of COVID. And through a mirror. He got it to Chris, to Chris, of course, and Emma Thomas. And by the way, for the record, when the fires happen, some of the first people I heard from were Chuck, and Emma Thomas and Chris Nolan, Emma texting me right away and said, we have a room in our house,

come stay and so on. I mean, you know, a lot of people think they're aloof and he's very focused because he doesn't like anybody telling him. He just wants to focus on making the movies his choice. But man, when the chips were down, you know, they turned out to be. be a real friend. For people who don't. But anyway, so let me just...

I just want to make sure people understand. Yeah. The Chris Nolan is... I mean, I guess he's widely acknowledged now as maybe being the premier alt tour. But if he's not, he will be in time. If not of all times. Maybe, right?

He's an unbelievable genius. He's like, he's a Shohei Otani kind of force in that space. He's a for... He literally is saving... Film. Film. Literally film. He shoots only on film, an IMAX.

He's, you know, he called me up and he said, look, the film's done. They're famous stories about him. Like, when the studio said, hey, you know, we'd like to read the scripts. He said, why? Okay, well, you know, can you show us, you know, daily? No. Well, when will we see the film, you know, at the premiere? So I was kind of surprised when he called me.

The film's done. Well, great. Chris, great. He said, I'd like you to come see it. You know, 9 o'clock in the morning, 9.30 in the morning. Sure. You know, at the Universal City Walk, you know, and Dolby Sound, you know, it's a huge, big, and I'm just sitting there alone watching the movie.

I think there were a couple of other people who have been actors in the movie that maybe hadn't seen it yet. But basically, I felt like it was in this big empty room. And my father was on Okinawa. We're just jumping from things like Lily Bad. No, no, no, no. Look, I'll finish. Our listeners understand.

I'll finish these stories next week. Anyway, I don't want to come back tomorrow. Anyway, my dad was on Okinawa, and I had a big, I had a real issue that I wanted to make sure that people understood that when they talk about the atomic bomb and the number of lives that were lost, the number of lives had we had a land invasion, not just American lives, but Japanese lives would have been way more and more, I mean, in terrible ways. They had 10-year-old children fighting with sticks against, you know, Marines. Every model of a Japanese invasion. showed a million dead. So when he did the movie and actually gleaned from American Prometheus and the trial, the hearings that Oppenheimer went through for his security clearance, and he took a completely different tack on the movie. Now, you have to understand that everybody

wanted Chris Neldon to make a movie at the time. And Chuck said, look, I don't produce with Chris anymore because Emma does it, his wife. I mean, she's great produced. They kind of don't need me. We're friends. And at one point when everybody was pulling at Chris, Chris said to Chuck, hey, you know, Emma and the kids and I would just like to go to your ranch if you're going to be down there in tech. He said, yeah, I'm going next to you. Yeah, let's come down. So Chuck has us ranch. He and Steph, his wife, they ride horses and, you know, very good. She does cutting horses. She's like a champion. So there, and he said, I don't want to talk about showbiz. Chuck says, great. Chuck calls him up he goes. So I'm going to go have, you know, Chris is going to come.

but he doesn't want to talk about show business, so it's not going to happen, and that's it. The third or fourth day, this is how it's told to me by Chuck. So maybe it happened this way, maybe not, but it's a hell of a story. So Chuck said, like the third day, the maid got the housekeeper, their cook. You shouldn't use the word maid. They're a house manager. I believe it's a chef now. They're a house manager, their executive chef, whatever, got COVID.

So he said, long story short, Chris and Illinois. and I are doing the dishes together. And I'm watching it. To Chris, they'll like drying the dishes. I hope this is true. I really do. And at that point, Chris said, so what are you working on?

Dun da-da-dun. Angel starts singing. And he says, well, I'm doing this thing called Barbarians. He goes, no. He said, and the southern, he said, do you know James Woods, the actor? He goes, yeah, I like him as an actor and so on. He's not part of the cabal that decided to blacklist me

because I voted different. than they did. So that was nice. And he's not political at all. He just said, yeah, just like his work. What a concept. Right. How about that? Meritocracy. Yeah, yeah. What a thing? Yeah, the job. That's your job, so I like you. And he said, well, he has this project called American Prometheus about J. Robert Oppenheim. He said, I was talking to Robert Pattinson on our last movie about Oppenheimer. He said, I've been thinking about it. He said, send me the book. He said, you've got to stay here. He does something that nobody in our business does, Chris. He makes a decision about what he's going to do, and he does it. That's it. Yeah.

He doesn't develop 20 projects. No focus groups. Nothing. He couldn't care of life. Yeah. But by the way, he's never gone a penny over a budget or a day. Which is why the studios live. Yeah.

Yeah. He's fantastic. And he said, and Chuck said, you know, I was away in Germany. I haven't spent time with staff. He said, yeah, she'll understand. Chuck, just, I'm going to read the book. This is Thursday. I'll give you an answer on Tuesday. you know, or it was Friday, whatever it was.

I knew it was three days. I said, Chuck, the book's 700 pages long. It's like, you know, single, and it's all science. He said, he read it in three days. He calls him on Monday morning. He goes, this is my next movie. Jeez. And he wrote the screenplay in less than four months.

Wow. That's not even. That screenplay. And when I saw him. What's his IQ? I don't know, a billion, a billion plus 84. But, and when. And when he screened it for me, I went up to him afterwards.

I don't know why, because he's very... I said, Chris, I worked with my friend, you know how it is, all the dead ends in the business. I never... The movie's so great, but what's so great is the screenplay, the idea? Just that one little slight, because you don't know, you know, Strauss doesn't know what Oppenheimer is talking to Einstein about. And because of that, a whole life is ruin of a man who could have brought peace to the world. Even though he invented the atomic bomb, he wanted to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

You know the whole story. And all of a sudden, I never kind of, I started, tears started coming down my eyes. It was so brilliantly done. And Chris Nolan, who's not the kind of guy you had expressed this wrong, put his arms around me and said, I can't thank you enough for bringing the book to Chuck and making this possible. He might have found it anyway, and it's possible that he knew about it all. But for him to say that to me was just one of the sort of great rewards in life. Did it feel redeeming?

Yes, it was redemption. Okay. I'm super interested in that because at this point, I mean, you're older than you've ever been. I reckon, what, 77? I'm 78 years old. 78 years old. It's just that your career is so interesting. And in spite of, like what you just alluded to was,

really a sliding door, right? A moment of doing dishes leads to a comment, leads to a book, and suddenly you're an EP on arguably one of the greatest movies made this century, right? Speaking of sliding doors, you're 17, that one's made a glass, you run through it and damn near kill yourself. And look what happened in my life. And here you are. Like we're not sitting here if you don't run through that door. We're not sitting here of some guy whose name you may or may not remember doesn't put a clamp on your radial. I mean, we can make ourselves nuts looking at the little moments in our life

that actually weren't so little. But when you take that same model and apply it to something as consequential as splitting the atom, now you've got an opera. Well, it's interesting because I know you were an opera singer. Now, this is the second album we did, Tombstone Opera. There it is, thank you.

Love it. Love the cover design. Who did that? Oh. Who did that? Who did the cover? over there. Sarah No-H. Sarah No-H did that one. Very nice. Yeah. She did it. She did that. By the way, the graphic design, the graphic designer

who does the placement of all the writing and so on, is also an incredibly talented woman named Alice Mall, M-A-U-L-E, so Sarah did all the art directions. You did all the photography as well. The cover photograph,

there's a line where the silence My own dialogue. On a silent star high in the sky, a spirit sits, shaking his head, knows the carnage is nigh, and the killing begins. It's a whole opera about revenge and...

Comedy? Yeah, a lot of laughs in this one. But... Well, I direct you to cut number two onside a coyote hanging on a barbed wire fence. That old chestnut. Yeah. I tell you, it's a great song, man. They love that song.

And I'm going to say something. I truly do not ever I don't like to brag about anything I do but I am so proud of these two albums I'll never be able to tell you what joy it gives me so you'll notice that we have a star if I may find this out right there in Tombstone Opera that's the star

and this beautiful very simple kind of alluring mysterious ethereal cover that was actually a daylight photograph that sir took that she massaged with Express and turned it into that, and that was a picture of Bob Wayne, who come, I do this interesting thing. I write all the lyrics, and on the first album, Shooter Jennings, three-time Grammy winner, Waylon Song.

Mark of a guy, I love him so much, Waylon Soon as well, but who is now really made, he's really one of the top country music producers. He just did, he's, he's done so many, Melissa Etheridge's album he did. I think he got two Grammys with producing Brandy Carlyle. He's fantastic. So when you're talk about going through the sliding door? I've got to tell the story. This is how it all came about. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources? If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I,

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I do a little spoken intro. When I was young, there were two things that stuck out because I love to read. One was Thomas Wolfe, you can't go home again. And I always, that concept just bewildered and left a bitter taste in my mouth. I thought, you can find your way back if you need to, I believe. In fact, the first song on that first album is called The Road Back. And the other thing that always stuck with me is, as Scott Fitzgerald famously said,

there are no second acts in American lives. But I'm here to prove that indeed there are. I mean, I found, one of my lyrics is I found a good woman. I don't know how. You know, I did find a good woman in my life when I least expected it on April Fool's Day 10 years ago, so I'm still not sure if it's the real deal. It could be a really long.

A long, very elaborate prank. A really elaborate prank. No, H is playing the long game. Yeah, no H is doing the long game. You know, I've got to check again. Anyway, so we're sitting in Dan Tannas, my beloved friend, Dan Tanna, who passed away this year, God rest of soul.

But we go there all the time. I'm the only actor-musician whoever whose picture is on the wall at Dan Tannas after 60 years. By the way, one of the great places in the country. to get a steak. One of the best steak you'll ever have anywhere in the world.

You know, Muson Frank. Great also. Yeah, those two. You're going to sit at the bar and sip a decent cold gin and have a rare to medium rare.

The best. Certainly, that's the best. At that very bar, Glenn Fry and Don Henley were sitting, look at this girl in the bar and Glenn Fry

said Don Henley, look at this girl, look at those lion eyes. Can't hide him. And Don Henley went, song by the way squirrel but have you seen the Eagles

in the sphere yet have we we haven't seen them in the sphere but we saw them in Vegas and it was with Vince Gill you know we had the greatest so much fun

they're so great so anyway we're sitting in tennis at 5 o'clock and you know who eats dinner at 5 o'clock well we do because I don't know people always come

hey Mr. Will is good to talk to how you don't shake hands and I always shake hands everybody chat with everybody. But when they're standing over your food, one thing we learned during COVID is don't chat with people while they're standing over your food.

Right. I won't get more graphic than that. So we're sitting there. There's nobody in the place except this guy's all tattered up and he's got shades on and his blonde Anna Nicole Smith kind of looking gorgeous wife.

And she's, and you know, we're always like everybody does, people watching, these two. And all of a sudden she goes, and he goes, oh, They get up and they go, hey, man, sorry. Bother you. You know, I'm just such a fan.

I go, oh, thank you so much. We're sorry to stare, but, you know, you're a really cool looking couple. So the question is, music, movies, but he goes, ah, music. He said, I'm shooter Jennings, and this is my wife, Misty. And I said, oh, how did I said, Jennings? I said, well, you know, that's, you know, there was a country. He said, he was my dad. I said, of course you will.

How about that? So we start, we sit. talking, talking, talking, talking. We're hanging out, hanging out. And now it's during COVID, so it's really difficult. Sarah and Misty keep trying to make Sarah, O.H. and Misty, M-I-S-T-Y, I don't know why I bothered his fellow name, are trying to find out a way to get us together to have dinner. And we finally have dinner, and for some reason we're chatting, Schueter and I are talking about music, the music he love, and his music and stuff. And I said, oh, damn, I said, I have this sweater, cashmeree, a little nice little cashmere,

swear to the servant got for me and I snagged it. You know, he said, how did you do that? I said, oh, you know, the callous from my, from my guitar. He said, you play guitar? I said, no, shh. No, I don't believe. No, I do not play guitar. I stink.

You can't do it. I had an injury. I can strum campfire chords. I gave it all up. No, I don't play guitar. Because you never tell a musician. No. You play an instrument.

Because you know what's coming next. He has one, probably under the table. It's not even that. It's like, you think you can play an instrument. instrument until a guy who's practiced 17 hours a day, you know, gets on. You think you can direct a movie and then Chris Nolan walks in the room. And you go, oh, oh, my God. Anyway, he said, oh, he said, did you ever, and talk about it the sliding door you walked there?

He said, well, you know, you always make me a lab man, you're so bright. Did you ever think of writing lyrics? No. He said, you should think about that. So I go home because it's in my mind. I write a song and I sit down and I write it as fast as I can

actually I wrote on my notes app on my phone when the sun and early morning dies in sorrow and quietly fades when the 184J. What is it when they once Before?

Before. Before. Before. Before they once more onus, before the world invades. Before, what the fuck? I do. What's the song called?

It's called Misty Morning. M-I-S-T-Y-Y. No-A-H. Oh. I gotta get to my phone back on. It is from the horse's mouth. When the sun and early morning dies and sorrow and quietly fades. For a empty morning, morning, cold wind.

So, shooters are fantastic composer and a great singer. How long did it take him to write that compared to how long it took you to? Well, it took me about 40 minutes. Or 78 years, depending on how you love it. About as long as it took us to find it. But you've got to understand what it's like,

so you send these lyrics to this guy who's got three Grammys and you don't hear anything for weeks. I said to Sarah, I am such a douchebag. Oh, what am I sending lyrics to Shooter, Jennings? I'm so fucking actor. You know, it's like,

you know. And then, out of nowhere, no, nothing. I don't know where I get a text. And it's like, oh, MP4-5.

I touch it. And I hear, it just, he'd, then he smoked cigarettes. It doesn't smoke cigarettes anymore. He's, all right,

I've been smoking all day and my voice is shit, you know, but I got to tell you, I'm just doing a little, kind of, you know, I like the stream of, conscious. I love these lyrics, James. I really hope.

Anyway, I hope you like this. It's just something I's, I think, I hope you like it. Here it is. Boom. And he plays this song. And if you hear the whole song, it's just, it's exquisite, it's just beautiful. On a personal level, though, what's it do? What's it due to your dopamine? What's it do to your mindset? It's impossible. You talked about redemption before with the Nolan moment. How does, how does that moment compare? Well, you got to know that while I was waiting those three weeks, I wrote 35 more songs. I just thought, I'm just going to keep writing for it. I love this. 35? Yeah, 35. You are such a weirdo, man. And I just wrote these songs. And when I heard it, I said, Sarah, is it me? She goes, it's fantastic. So I called David Foster,

was a friend of mine. I said, David, can I send something to you? He said, yeah, he said, you know, I'm retired. I said, I don't want you to do anything. I just want to know if I'm kidding myself. He listens to what he goes, who's on the piano and singing? I said, it's Shooter Jennings. So also did the music. I wrote the lyrics here. He said, I would buy this song in one second for Josh and Roman, right? I said, well, I'm never doing anything except with Shooter. He said, yeah, and he said, I'm not, I'm at work now. I said, but

this is, anything you need my help on, just do. You know, now I'm with ASCAP and all that stuff. But the good news is something interesting happened that kind of works for everything that you do here about the work ethic. And I really want to talk about this seriously because it's important. So here I am. I had a day job, and I did pretty well. And I had... Goes to Mississippi.

Kidding me? Yeah. Pretty well. Yeah, I had that, and I had Salver. I had a couple of Oscar nominations. I got, you know, I got all that stuff. And I made some money. But I did one really smart thing when I was young.

And right after like 1984, 1984, whatever, I had some money in the bank. And I had a stockbroker. And I said, you know, I'd like to buy Apple Computer. And he goes, are you joking? Apple Computer is like it's like a trash can on the screen. I said, yeah, you know what is that trash can on the screen? He said, so you're going to throw away your stuff? I said, yeah.

And you know why that's interesting to a shitload of people in America and in the world? They don't know what Control, Alt, Elite does. They don't know all that geek stuff. But they can look at a desktop and go, oh, I can put this thing in the trash can. I said, it appeals to the other 99% of the world who would love to use a computer. I said, just tell me one thing. He said, look, if you buy Apple computer, I really don't kind of want to represent you. I get fired all the time, everybody, because, you know, I have a,

other ideas. And I said, okay, but before you go, would you put in the sale for me? He goes, yeah. I said, with the money, I was like at 12 or something, you know. I said, I've worked hard. I just didn't, if I took every penny I have and put it into Apple computer, he said, oh, man, you're so stupid. I said, okay, but we know that, and you're going to leave me and you'll be able to say, I told you so someday. How many shares could I buy? He said, said 13,000. I said, good, buy 13,000 shares of Apple in 1985. And you did? And never sold one. Are you kidding me? No, dude. I'm here as a favor because I'm a rich month. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Man, I was not on the verge of feeling sorry for you. I actually, I got to take

the back. I actually did sell at one point when they, when they split seven ways or something, because you don't want to ever be top every no matter how great you're thinking. But I just loved the product. And I loved what it was. The point about this is it's important to get back to this other thing. I can afford to make these albums and it costs quite a bit. You want to pay the musicians and I have a whole thing that we have to talk about how musicians are just, have been destroyed by the way the music business is run now. It's cruel and awful and I'm trying to do something little different here. So I worked with this wonderful woman in Missy Query at Selecto Hits, which is Johnny Phillips, Sam Phillips, great-nephew. Selecto hits. Oh, don't laugh, man. They do

50 to 100 albums a month. And you know what they do? All the guys want to have their own little labels, okay, and they want to get their stuff distributed, and they help you do it. And he guide you through it all, and honestly, it's fantastic. Because nobody cares. Oh, you know, I'm going to buy that because it's on, you know, electro-as, whatever. You know, nobody does that. It's like, oh, I'm going to go see a universal film tonight. I feel like some Warner Brothers entertainment. It doesn't.

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Learn more at skillsusa.org slash mic. That's skills, USA.org slash mic. I'm talking skills, U.S. Skills, U.S.S. Skills USA So I said to Shooter, I said, you know, then he started writing songs for me. And it's like, he said, man, you know, you've got a really beautiful album here. I said, thank you. I said, what do you think we should call the album?

He said, well, you know, it's like it's your autobiography. This is the first album here that's under crack. I said, what? He goes, dude, you're not aware that you like wrote your autobiography? I said, oh, I guess I kind of did. Because there's a song I think we're going to play at the end called Hello Friend. got to say goodbye. And I said, yeah. He said, well, then, you know, I said, but we don't have a song that kind of celebrates that. I said, I should write one tonight. He said, okay, what would you call?

I said, well, the road back, because I love road stories. And I wrote the song about driving back home, you can't go home again when I call home to see my widowed mother after my beloved brother died And I'm getting caught in a tornado with my little chariotr, look just like Toto. It's too hard to believe, but it's a true story. And we get caught in this tornado. Anyways, it's called the Roadback. And he said, you know, I said, you know, should we do this with like, you know, like Sony? The big labels are great for us.

It would be James Wooden. Nobody associates you with music. I have a small but devoted following, but they come out from about it, gone. He said, you should go with Johnny Phillips. You should make your own label, break heart films based after a brook that my dad and I used to fish in. And he said, you know, in the beginning you'll have to fund it yourself. I'll do it with you. I said, no, I'll do it.

Pay the musicians, pay the engineers and all that. And then hopefully make enough money back that you can do another one. And so I'm going to do it as if I am a broke-ass guy with a guitar, but, you know, a guitar and a dream, a pencil or a note tap. 13,000 shares of McIntosh. Yeah, but I'm not bringing that in, you see. So we ended up doing the album that way, and Missy guided us through it, and Sarah, you know, with her,

we didn't have her photography. It ended up being shooter in me and Sarah with the photography that was a way that we could promote it. At least we have some pictures and some, videos and all this stuff. And we did it and people loved it. And we ended up number seven for a brief moment. But we were on the Apple country music chart. I mean, they hit number seven. Yeah. Yeah. You know. And. But to do it on your own terms, James. On our own job. I mean, it's like this little band of, you know, I don't know, jagged little

pills who are going to do something outside of the behemoth of the industry. There you go. How satisfying or important, how important is it to fight City Hall, even as you try and create something here? But I don't want to look at it negatively. I understand that the big albums, you know, provide a great service. I mean, you get to, whether it's 50 Cent or, you know, Taylor Swift, whatever. I mean, those fans want to hear these artists, and they're great artists in their own way. This is different, this is authentic music. There's no AI. There's no, you know.

No auto tune. No auto tune, none of that stuff. These are musicians playing in the other, and great musicians. John Schreffler, Jamie Douglas, Aubrey Richmond, Ted Russell Camp, you know, Shooter, of course. So this album did well. I call Shooter, and I, you know, now that COVID was over, Schueter was, you know, back into producing and so on. I said, Shooter, it takes you too long to get songs back to me. Sometimes it can take as much as, because you just don't have the time.

He said, yeah, I know. I said, is there a young artist? who could do what you do that we would produce together that I could take the profit from this first album and make a second album and say it's not young

but there's a guy named Bob Wayne who's got like 12 albums out he does him in his living room but it's really good musicians in the South and it's all you know trucker age,

you know mother and all this stuff but really but he also does other music, and he's a genius. He's amazing. And he said, we were talking about doing a neo-noir western. I said, whatever that means.

I said, and what would I do? He said, well, you know, why don't you write the lyrics and have him do the music? I said, because, yeah, that's me, a country Western guy. He goes, Jimmy, just see what you think. So I talked to him on the phone a little bit, and I really like him, and I send him the lyrics, to a song called Casa D'Amour that I had written.

And he sends back, we laugh about it now, literally the worst song I think I've ever heard. And I said, and I learned something from Shooter, shoot her with your musician, say, let's try that again. Clinties was like that. Yeah. And Bob said, I hate this thing. I said, I was literally in tears.

I told Candace my girlfriend, I said, I just screwed it up with James Lowe's. I said, and this thing is crap. I hate it. I said, Bob, just try it again. He said, okay. You know, I sent back. I said, you're getting there. And then finally I said, think about this.

Think that it's like this 1870s kind of Hacian canteen with these ladies of questionable virtue and, you know. Ill repute. Ill repute. But he falls in love with one. So now he comes back. And the first half of this song, I think you're going to play it at some point, we're talking to your guy about it, Chuck about it.

And it's real, you know, almost mariachi band kind of self-conscious, but it's setting you up. I said, now when he wakes up to the empty room and she's gone, go to a minor key, and let's get into that fever dream loss that shooter's famous for that kind of, and then we have, you know, John Schreffler on that lap steel guitar. It's like, oh, my God. These musicians, and I'm glad I mentioned them all, because they make the song.

And Shooter's ability to arrange it all. And the next thing you know, Casadamor is like beautiful. And man, we're off and run. Is that the one where there's a heat wave? Yeah. There's a heat wave and Casa de'clock. So it actually, I mean, you got around to it. You just answered, well, not quite yet.

You haven't quite answered my very first question, which was an attempt to, to explain the alchemy between musicians who have never heard a song before. So they're not privy to your process of coming up with the lyrics. They're not privy to Shooter's process or to Bob Wayne's pain of getting it wrong and then wrong again and then less wrong and then not really wrong and then right and then great. They're not a part of any of that. They show up one day, Saturday afternoon, they're in some studio and they look at some charts. Mountain at Sunset Sound. It was bound to be that or something like...

They don't even look at the charts. Right. It is the most miraculous thing I've ever experienced in my life. And I've seen a shuttle launch. That's what I want... I want you to talk about that. Here's what we do. That's the stuff of...

Here's what we do. I'm going to do something that... Man, I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm going to do it. Are you accessing your photo role? I'm going to do something. I'm going to do something. I'm going to do that portfolio. Okay.

It's a stock portfolio. It's a stock portfolio. You're going to check your stocks right now. I'm going to do this. I said to Shooter, I wrote this song called I Am the Blazing Son. And I said, what happened is Dwayne from the Oak Ridge Boy said, I love your album and I love your writing.

Would you write a song for us? We started writing, and then it turned out that it worked beautifully for Tombstone Opera. But then I didn't want to use it in Tombstone Opera, but I have a new album we're going to cut in February. And I'm just going to say it now. called the lonesome. It's about lonesome people. Is this breaking news? Has this been really sad? It actually is, and I shouldn't have said it, but yes. Lonesome people. It's going to be the title of this episode.

Loansome people, God. Lonesome people, folks. No, it's called the lonesome. Oh, it's just the lonesome. The lonesome. Well, you know what you did there? You forgot the noun, man. So here's... The lonesome what? You left me hanging. Just the lonesome. That's right. I kept you hanging, didn't I? What comes next? What do you mean the lonesome? Well, if nothing comes after lonesome, I think you've turned to, what, an adjective, into the noun, the lonesome.

Well done. You're good at this. Very clever. So here's a little vibe, the shooter sent. He said, maybe you could use this. This is what I was saying. It's just like, here's like, here's how it works.

It goes from this. You know what I should do? No, I'm going to do that. You should play it if you're going to yell at you'll be hanging again. I'm going to do it from a song you already have. So here's a little bit of, is there a big? beyond the door rough in here? Let's see if there is a rough.

I got a rough road to heaven here. No, but that's, okay, let me just see. Okay, so my ear, okay, here it is. Okay, so this is just nothing. Okay, let me go back. I'm going to show you this. Coyote. Sounds like nothing.

That's not in the final. He was just doing it for me. This is just a rough you get. Yeah, okay. Scratch strike. Like ragged debris Once a killer On a desert crime spree

Okay, now I'll give you the I'll give you the master of this Okay And And now have you ever heard the difference When the final one With the band

It's fantastic He comes in He plays this It's like Okay I don't think Anything That's it

They play it once These guys are sitting there going You know one four you know, in music, instead of saying C, you know, G, classic G-C-C-D, it's like the first chord, the fifth, fourth chord, the fifth chord, the fifth chord, whatever. They do that once, and they take a pass at it. And they sit there and go, what, what? What? How did you guys do this? Now, I did something, I did two things.

Sarah and I, Sarah, of course, did it for me. She made sure that we had all the lyrics printed up, and I gave them to each of the band members. First of all, I said, nobody ever does this. And then I give a little speech about what the song means to me. And this is very important because I know you're going to play this song. When I was seven years old, I was an army brat. I lived on Guam. I lived in three different states in the first year of school.

It was really hard on me. I was traveling and traveling. And then in the second grade, I was living in Warwick, Rhode Island. And I used to go to the library at night in Connecticut, Rhode Island. The librarian's daughter was a girl named Gerald Davies. And Gerald and I became best friends. She was a little skinny mini And she just aggravated

The living shit out of me forever And went to school All through schools Through junior high But I was like eight I said my mom I said you know Jerry's always like picking on me I said why is she so mean to me

He said You don't understand Girls yet This is and by the way It gets more complicated Than ever gets easier Like you understand them now Yeah

Yeah I got this all figured out And so we get through school and then, you know, like she goes away to like a Christian summer camp or something comes back when she's 16. It's like olive oil leaves and Jessica Rabbit comes back. And I literally go, hi, what's it? She's, don't even say it, don't think. Look, you know, so we were friends, but now you go through that awkward period where you're like teenagers and you're going, oh, geez, you know, you're just like dumbfounded how miraculous went on. It's another magic trick.

But everything about good women, and all women are good women unless they've been deluded by, you know, bad men and bad other women. But she was just, you know, a lovely person. But we were meant to be friends, not to ever get involved, and we didn't ever get involved. And, you know, like my mom said, I always, you know, like we'd be talking about her and her mom, you know, at the library. I always thought you and Jimmy to get married. Yeah, people think that, but she had met Michael, her husband, and they had a wonderful marriage and children and so on. And I was really glad.

And we stayed friends forever. They'd always call up. I said, what are you doing? She said, I'm pregnant again. I say, yeah, that's a good thing. She goes, no, it's a great thing. And she called me once, and I didn't get a chance to answer. But she called me again.

I got to call Jerry back. Calls the third time. Hey, I'm so sorry I didn't give up Mr. Woods. This is Jerry's daughter. I said, oh, hi. I said, you know, your mom called me. She said, my mom passed away this morning. She was trying to call you to say goodbye.

She had cystic fibrosis. And, you know, I was like, so I wrote this song, Hello Friend. Hello, friend, I forgot to say goodbye. Slip my mind, I don't know why. I thought you'd always be there. I never feared death. But I called one day and you were gone in a breath. And shoot her put that to music.

And Aubrey plays the violin on it. And I'm telling you, the good news is I don't care whether anybody likes it or not. It's one of the most beautiful songs to me you could ever hear. I just love that song so much because it's personal. And I write every word of every album. Nobody gets to write any other words. The only word that was ever added at the end, Shooter added, old buddy instead of my friend or my girl or whatever old buddy and I said gee it's kind of odd he goes

she was your buddy I said you get that and he goes yeah I get it those little things are so magical but if you had ever heard I explained that story to the musicians and the musicians got it and you know a couple of them came up to me and said you know it makes such a difference because now we know what the heart of the song is. I mean, they can do anything. But, you know, which way do you want it to go? Oh, let's make it sound like Joy Division or let's do something as Johnny Cash. You'll make an illusion allusion to how you like it done. You didn't have to do that. When I explained them, this is what touched my heart in this song when I wrote it. In this case, Schueter wrote to music and Tomb Sound Opera. Bob wrote to music. Shooter and I produced both albums. You give them the

key to it. Now, we actually give them a name now because I won't work with anybody else, but, you know, I mean, we'll add other people, but these are my core people. If I can't have them, I'm not going to record an album. I'll plan months in advance and make sure that they're available. But these guys, they'll be doing something, including Aubrey. Well, you know, I got to get on plane because I'm doing a single show. And, you know, Bob was literally just in Argentina, in Europe. Literally had a little Volkswagen bus driving across Spain.

Yeah, we're going there, and then we're going to Portugal. And I got a flight of Finland and playing in 300-seat houses. Is Bob White? Bob Wayne, but I swear this album, Tombstone Opera, is going to make your difference because Rafa Gomez, who wrote the review of it in Europe for popular one, which is like the Rolling Stone of America, thinks it's a masterpiece.

So I'm not saying it is, but Bob wrote the music and does the singing on this, and he is absolutely a blessed human being. He's just this sweet guy, and I said, Bob, where did you come up with this music? He tries to give me the credit. He goes, well, the words really spoke to me. And I said, Bob, this is, I said, Shooter, I'm not wrong.

He's no, Bob's a genius. He's like an unheralded genius. But these guys have to be on the road. And in between sets, they sit in the lobby and they sign vinyl, while, you know, Apple and Spotify make, you know, billions of dollars. And I'm not putting them down. No, no, but this is the stuff of poetry. Is it a masterpiece?

Will it be a masterpiece? Oh, I don't know. I don't like to say that. Somebody else had that. Right. But, I mean, you have to, you can't,

time. Okay. Bob Ross's painting just sold for a million dollars. Bob Ross was the brunt of every joke that every artiste ever made for 20 years.

But the joy of painting on PBS was a magic trick. And every episode starts with a blank canvas. And then, it is weird wizard. Bree Little Way. He does some things here. Kind of like a bunch of musicians come together.

I love them. Love. And then poof. In watercolor, you have something that makes so much sense to your brain where there was not only not that thing there earlier, but there was nothing. It was a blank canvas. And that's the magic of an empty studio. And now five cats are in it. And now they're talking in code. And now you have a song. And the song in question, is informed by a word that you didn't write, the word buddy, which frankly, to me, destroys me when I hear Willie Nelson singing. Now, this is really going to blow your mind. I love stories like this. Seven years ago, a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed

and labeled as domestic, and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent meat company that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises to deliver high-quality American-grown meat for a fair price. Today, that promise, and Ben's absolute determination to keep it, has not only propelled good ranchers into the top tier of meat delivery companies, it's fueled enormous awareness among meteors like me,

that we have all been affirmatively deceived by policies that allow imported me to be marketed as domestic. That's the reason I switch to good ranchers. If I'm being honest, though, I doubt that I would have stayed this long had the quality not been so exceptional. Every single cut I've devoured from good ranchers has been straight up delicious

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If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers. Now, my buddy, my pal, my friend, right? That old song. Right. Some genius at Subaru buys it and puts it in a commercial featuring a guy and his old dog. He's not going to be around for much longer. And now my buddy, my pal, and I'm sitting home.

I'm a grown-ass man, and I'm not that sentimental. And I'm crying like a 10-pound baby girl because that's probably the last walk on the beach for that dog and there's the guy i know and if you distill all of it jill can i call you jim yes please if you did jim like if you called me michael it would freak me out yeah no i'm my brother's name was mike so oh jeez i'm gonna circle back to him in a minute too yeah so prepare to cry you're gonna cry like a baby in a minute but i'm weeping because of the word buddy yeah and so we don't really i don't think get to choose what the watercolor does on the canvas or what that musician might do on that day with that instrument or what a genius like shooter might decide

to do with your words. And all of it, sometimes you're the potter, sometimes you're the clay. And if what comes out the other end is a tombstone opera, then you're living a pretty interesting life to do. Amen. I don't give credit to everybody just to be, oh, what a great guy, Jamie. He always gives credit. It couldn't be done without them. On this last album, we always kind of joke that were the three musketeers, Shooter and Bob and I, and D'Artagnan is Sarah with no H. You know? No porthos, no Athos.

But now speaking, which, it's so funny. No Aramis. Darius Rucker, who used to be with Houdian and the Blowfish, wrote a beautiful song called Sarah with, and we've done this joke enough, but with no age. With an H. Sarah, but no, it's with no age. Oh, no HHU.

Correct. Yeah. So Houdian the Blowfish actually? No, no, Huda, he went solo. Oh, yeah, okay. And Darius Rucker, he's a wonderful. And his whole song. is about, I want you back again as my friend. I want to talk to you again. I don't want to be your

lover. I don't want you to be my wife. I just want to talk to you again like we did like we were 13 again, you know, and it's just so great because it's really hard for people to understand that, yes, a man and a woman can be a friend. And one of the million great things I love about my wife is that if there is a woman that I've known who is not up to something, and is just a really good friend. And a perfect example is my first wife is a costume designer, a great human being, a lovely person,

never intrudes or anything. But once in a while, I'll chat, and I'll always make sure if she called, I'll call back when Sarah's there. I just have kind of a rule about that. I just don't think. And, you know, she's just a genuinely good person.

And Sarah knows that, and they're very friendly with each other. Can we not gloss over that quite so? like you prefer to call your friend back when your wife is in the house. Just a matter of respect to both of them, but certainly to my wife. Certainly. But, you know, look, again, it's a parenthetical, certainly, i.e. obvious, ergo, clearly. Kay K. Kapshaw, I'm going to clear it. I'm going to give you a little moment in time that explains it better than anybody.

Steven Spielberg and Kate Kapshaw have been married for years. I worked with Kate. She's fabulous. And Stephen loves her. And she loves Stephen. And she loves Stephen. It's not what it's about. They really love each other.

They're a great little. They're a great couple. And I said, you know, I have male friends and so on. And I said, how does Stephen feel about that? She said, I was going to meet my friend John one day and said, hey, I'm going to meet John for lunch. And Steven said, great. And as she was coming down in the driveway, he was walking over to the car. He said, she said, what's going on?

He said, I'm going with you. Now, many times he hadn't, you know, in the telling of this story. But there was never a moment in his mind where he thought, I better go and check on it. That's not what it was about. It never dawned him it would be an issue either way. And I said, no. There's never an issue either way. And like, I never asked, hey, I'm going to bring Sarah.

I don't have to ask him any permission. She's my wife. She's the most important person in the world to me. And I am going to make sure if we're going to go somewhere, hey, we'd like to have you come, but, you know, I'll have to be solo. I said, then you'll have to, I get, you know, somebody else. Because she either comes or that's it. Now, it may be a situation where, you know, the one time I asked Sarah about it

was when Chris screened, when he screened up on me, he said, look, everybody wants to see it, the studio heads and so on. He said, you are instrumental in this, and I really want you to participate. We're making sure that nobody come because I want to leak out. And I said, I know that everybody would want to leave out. So I said to Sarah, either I won't go off a favor. For any reason, she says, don't be, you go, because she was crucial in making the decision. Here's the little thing I don't talk about much.

As you know, if you produce a movie, you win the Academy Award. If you're the executive producer, you don't. Now, there was a period when there were 20 executive producers on movies and stuff. Chris Nolan doesn't do that. He gives it to his production manager, and he gets the executive producer credit. And he just doesn't give executive producer credit. But he gave it to us because we had the book.

I said to Chuck, Chuck, if we do this, I've worked all my life. I'm blacklisted in this business. And from my politics purely, I said, I really want to get the Oscar. He said, well, I'm going to ask Chris. And he said, you know, and he said, he's not going to let you produce. He said, but I'm going to produce.

So now you brought me the movie, and I'm going to produce because I used to produce with them. And he said, are you going to be able to take us up there getting the Oscar if that happens? And you not. And I said, he said, because I'm not. your friend. I've been your friend forever. He always gives me credit. He never doesn't. He said, I want you to think it over, and if you decide, no, we won't do it with Chris. I give him my word. He said, but if you decide it's okay and you can handle it, we'll do it with Chris. And if we get the Oscar, you will be the first person, I think, I promise you, and he did.

No kidding. And the reason I made that decision, I was going to go the other way. I said, sir, you think? She said, caviar on the balcony or tacos in the parking lot? Caviar on the balcony. So, not to put too fine a point on it, but that's a moment where you're thinking if the best thing for the project is for you to step away from it. That's correct. Then you would do that. And also, Chuck is a great friend.

You know, way back when we're in our 20s, he was in the music business. And he said, you know, I'd like to get into show business. Can you help me? And I introduced him to a writer and they didn't do the project. But the writer helped him write another idea he had called Heart Like a Wheel and he never looked back. And he's a great, the best producer of life today. He's fantastic. We've stayed friends forever.

And, you know, he really, I don't think if it had been anybody else would have wanted to do a movie about the making of the atomic bomb. There had already been two TV movies about it. He didn't think he could get Chris to do it. But he, I think, felt that given our history and our friendship, and knowing how cruel it has been that I had an agent who called me on Fourth of July, I don't know if he was 10 bears deep or not. I don't even know what he was doing. I said, you know, I'm feeling patriotic today, so I'm going to drop you as a client.

I said, that's odd. I just thought patriotism was about a country where people could disagree and still like each other. and work together. But you know what? It's probably more of a gift than you'd think. And indeed it was, because I'd rather have written Tombstone Opera than just about anything else

or make any of the movies they make now, which I can always tell you who the villain is because he's the old white guy. Sliding doors. Did this prick? Pardon me. This agent of yours? I mean...

They fired it. Was he just another sliding door you ran through that ultimately brought you to where you got? You know, I never thought of it that way. And I... Which agency? was it? The Grush Agency. And you'll name names. I don't usually name names, but that's what they did, and they stood by it, and that's that. That's their choice. What year was this? It was about 12 or 14 years ago,

whatever? People need to understand the vagaries of this business are such that if you're a guy like James Woods and you have a certain standing and you have a certain resume, then you're going to be represented by one of the big agencies, as you were. Yes. And your path forward, in this town is it's not a single lane but it's a lane and you will you will play ball you will comport there's certain things you will do and there are certain things you won't and if you fall outside of that mechanism you're going to get the kind of call that you got you got the call so it was an email actually oh so classy well look we don't we don't need to make a meal out of this i'm sure you're sick of talking about it, but I do want people to understand how burned, how burned are you today in this

business? And the reason I'm asking is, I wouldn't ask if I felt like you had a shred of self-pity. I don't have any self-pity. But you don't. No. And you're real smart and you're older than you've ever been and you're actually living a second act. I really am. Like you're probably going to write a song on the way home with Sarah. without an age, and you're probably going to run it by her, and she's probably going to say, let me think about it. She's going to go off to her little room in your one-bedroom motel where you're squatting and probably write and draw up a beautiful album cover in between chapters of yet another novel, whatever. It's such an, I don't feel sorry for you at all, at all.

I don't either. But I don't know of anybody who took it in the neck harder for speaking candidly than you. So what a weird mix to not feel bad in spite of what I think was an awful lot of injustice. Also, an interesting thing happened to our business during this time period. You know, Chadwick Bozeman had, I thought, a incredibly dignified death. He knew he was sick. He was a young man, never told anybody. He was really incredibly talented. I'm not sure I know who he is. He was the star of Black Panther. Oh, okay. And I hadn't seen all his work after he passed away.

And I said to Sarah, you don't want to see some of Chadrick Boseman's films. And there was one he did called 21 Bridges. I said, oh, great. It's on, you know, one of the streaming services. And I look, and I go, there it is. And, you know, Sarah looks, and she said, yeah, I know who the villain is. I said, we haven't watched the movie yet. She goes, I know who the villain is from the casting.

I said it was Chadrick Boseman. I think his love interest was Rosaria Dawson, I think. And then the chief of police, he was a policeman, was J.K. Simmons. She said, J.K. Simmons. I'm starting to watch it, and there's this murder, two cops get murdered, and J.K. Simmons comes in. He's the chief of police, and I went, oh, yeah, the old white guy, of course. And, of course, he's corrupt.

And it turns out. And here's the problem. In order to qualify for an Oscar now, one of the two leads has to be a minority of some kind. Person of color, gay, whatever. And if it's not that, then at least a certain percentage, I think it's 50% of the crew has to be a minority. Well, when you start doing that,

no studio or other producer is ever going to make a movie they can't qualify for an Oscar. So those are the rules now. And all of a sudden, where does the old white guy fit in? He's the head of the evil corporation. And, you know, always, okay? You know, when you can predict a movie from the cast list, they've kind of shot themselves in the foot.

And it's the same with music. You know, one thing I love about our music, like, I'm really sorry I said the guy said it was a master. He did say it, but, you know, it's not a matter of being a masterpiece. It's a matter of, I love this music because Shooter said, look, we're not going to have a publicist. We're not going to do advertising. I'm not going to go on the road on the first album. You know, same with Bob.

He said, I said, so how are we going to promote this? And I sat down with missing. We started working. We had service photography, and we have my following on X, which I have five million followers, so that's nice. But I just thought. And I'm like to say. And finally curated page. it is.

Yeah, I'll thank you. You really, I mean, it's almost as though you weren't looking for redemption there for a while, like maybe 14 years. No, man, no, not at all. It's like, you never bent the knee, man. Never bend the knee because I have a, what is that? Shit, man, my own lyric. I write too many songs, but there's a great song about Man Without Courage lives on his knees,

you know, and I'm taking the hits for speaking as I please. and that's in Toomstown Opera in the song called Time for the Gun and you know if you yield you end up in prison for 500 days because you won't use the right pronoun like this teacher Burke in London right now he literally because of his religion has refused to call a boy she or they or whatever that stupid thing they want to do. And so the magistrates said, you're going to be in prison until you

take, bend the knee. And he said, I'm never going to bend the knee. He said, then you're going to be in there for life, for life, if you don't bend the knee. This is happening now. This is happening now, right now, today. Okay? And, you know, there are certain things that I, somebody, this guy wrote a nice review of the first album.

He heard one song. And he said, if the rest of the album is like this, it'll be the album of the year. And, you know, we're just waiting for people to get to it. This will be tremendous help being on the show with you, Mike. And I really appreciate it. I hope I don't make trouble over the whole. I hope you do. I hope you do nothing but cause trouble.

My real worry for you, honestly, is what are you going to do with the Grammy? Who's going to get it? How you got to... I'm not going to get... We're not going to get an Oscar either, except... I would love to have... Listen, you know, every other I don't care about the Grammy. the Oscar and I go then why do you do your acceptance speech every day in the mirror when you're

shaving you know it's like everybody wants an Oscar and I would love to have a Grammy I'd love to have an Oscar I'm not going to get them because of politics it's fine I don't care but I'll tell you you might look I'm sorry but I don't feel like I made the point right about the masterpiece thing I can't think of a single thing that's widely regarded as a masterpiece that wasn't first either dismissed or ridiculed or ignored that's what I mean to say whether it's Bob Ross or fill in the blank with, I mean, you can probably think of actors who weren't appreciated at their peak, but only through time people look back and go, oh, oh, he was doing that.

John Cazal, you know. I was on the- Great example. I was on the executive committee of the actors branch. You're not supposed to talk about this stuff, but it was years ago. What is it again? The executive committee of the actors' branch of the account. I was on for nine years. You have to take a year off, and then on for three or four more years. Then I moved to back to New York, so I said to them, look, I don't want to be here because

they can't make the two meetings. There are three ways to be a member of the academy. If you're nominated for an Academy Award as an actor, it has been a tradition that they will always welcome you in. That's how I, no, I got in the third way. Another way is if two actors come up to a member and say, hey, could you recommend me? And of course, you always say, well, of course I will. you know, then you have to recommend them. And everybody applies that way and almost nobody gets in that way. The third way is the people who are on the academy staff will point out to you certain actors

who are not at the time members of the academy. And the year I was invited, they mentioned, you know, James Woods isn't a member of the academy. I said, you should be a member of the academy. And they invited me in, which I was incredibly grateful for. And then I got nominated for Best Actor that year anyway for Salvador, a movie called Salvat's a good one. Oliver Stone's movie. And I thought, I'm going to help people get in the way I did.

And one of the actors that I just thought was great was a guy I knew from New York who was just, he gave Academy Level performances on stage and on screen. He might not even know him. Now, his name was Jose Perez. And back then, the Academy was really, there weren't a lot of guys named Perez in the Academy then. But I didn't think, I wasn't trying to be diversity or all that. I just naturally am that way. See, that's the irony.

People are like, oh, you're a right-wing learning. So anyway, so there's this guy, Jose Perez. And I said, I'd like to invite Jose Perez to be a member of the Academy. And we did. Because I said, even though he's not a big star, but then there was the Rodney Dangerfield moment. I'm not just going to tell this story now and I don't care. So, Shameless plug.

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whiskey to sip responsibly after a long day of interviewing people on this podcast. Pick up a bottle at noblespirits.com. K-N-O-B-E-L-Spirits.com. Soon may the noble men come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waitin is done, we'll take a drink and go. Somebody came up with the idea of Rodney Dangerfield being a member of the academy. me. And at the time, Roddy McDowell was the head of the actors branch. And he said, Rodney Dangerfield. He had a Rodney Dangerfield. He was like a comedian. I said, you're aware that that's like an act, right? I mean, he's, yes, a comedian, but he had just done natural-born killers,

and he was fantastic in it, in a dramatic role. And I said, you know, he doesn't go around, fixing his tie and talking about his wife, you know, whatever, all that stuff. I said, that's a character the same as, I mean, would you invite, you know, the little tramp into a be a member of the academy? Hello? Yeah, you know. Charlie. Charlie Chaplin, you know, of course. Of course you would.

I said, well, it's the same thing. No. And so we vote on it, and Rodney loses by one vote. So it comes up that the people ran the academy, you know, the staff said, you know, there was a discussion about this that you really should reconsider. And I gave a really passion, I gave that speech about like, here's who he really is. And Roddy, to his credit, and I knew Roddy socially very well, said, you know what, you've convinced me. I was wrong and you were right. And it was very gracious of him.

And we invite him to be a member of the academy. And he said, do you remember the academy? And in particular, Mr. McDowell, he said, I now realize that you have invited me to be a member of the academy. And it takes a lot of courage to admit maybe that you were wrong. And there's another way to look at this. And I've thought it over and I just want to say, go fuck yourselves. I don't want to be in your academy. And thank you very much.

Yours, Rodney Dangerfield. And that's a true story. So did he say that or write? He wrote it in a letter. Did somebody read the letter aloud? Yes, they did. I hoped there was a gathering somewhere where this was read. Roddy McDowell read it aloud.

Rodney's letter. Yeah. To his credit. To his credit. Yep. And you know, it was like, and I've always thought of that about the difference between how people really behave and what the real difference is between peasants and kings. Jim, this is.

And I'm going to do something. May I do something? Have I ever said no to you? I'm going to actually read you the entire lyrics of a song I'm doing, not for the next album, but for the album after that cold odd people. I'm going to just announce everything here. Well, go ahead as you search for that.

Oh, no, it's right here. Oh, I got to be kidding. Because I remember it. Okay. Because I was inspired by Rodney. All right. This song, it goes on. I always, it's a little long sometime,

and Bob or Shooter will rearrange it, all my words, but they arrange it. It's just a little kind of Johnny Cash, sort of like, you know, the chicken and black. Just a little story. But I always love to have a little twist. May I? May, please.

Rodney and Carl. When I was a kid, I had these two friends. We all had some thoughts we felt about each. And I realized then some things you can learn, and then there are some things you just can't teach. How we joked about them, well, you'd never know we were friends. In the words of Janus, I must make amends. Rodney was young, Carl's big brother.

Daddy said one was dumb but smart. harder than the other. And then mom said she thought that was mean, so I'll just say one was a fatty and the other a string bean. Carl once shot his self in the foot, never even said, ouch. Rodney got a girl pregnant on a pull-out couch. I guess old Rodney, irony wasn't his forte, and Carl was a fellow with not much to say. So here's a few things about these two dinglings, and a lesson I learned about peasants and kings. Carl went to the war, fought to the death, died saving some others with his very last breath. Old Rodney stood up, did the right thing, went down to the mall about that sweet girl the ring.

I see him sometimes coaching down at the rink with his son, little Carl. And here's what I think. It's not about money, about being so smart. It's courage that counts. It's about a man's heart. And now with a smile, I think of these two dinglings, and I know you can't ever be sure what the future may bring. But the one thing they taught me in this I know to be true,

there's a difference, my friend, between a peasant and a king. And that album's going to be called, what? Odd people. I love it. Yeah. It's kind of like Paul McCartney once talked about how they wrote Eleanor Rigby, and he said, you know, wrote the song, but we didn't have a name for the woman.

And he said, you know, it's a sad song, but I wanted it to have, I wanted us to care about her. And he said, I took a walk, I just through Liverpool, that night, just walked through the neighborhood, and just kind of look for some inspiration. And I went by a place where they sold sausage meats. It was like a butcher shop called the Rigby's, Rigby Brothers. And he said, Rigby is a perfect name. And then I turned, walking some more, and there was a lane. It was Eleanor Lane.

And he said, Eleanor Rigby. And somehow, I was just talking about Rodney, and you were talking about how I don't have a pity party for myself over the fact that I was blacklisted. Look, I would love to be acting again. I'd love to be an actor. I loved being an actor. And I loved the contribution I gave to people who love film. And I have a lot of fans who say, man, we would love to see you back. But that's not going to happen.

But I'm now making music. and I'm going to keep making music, and whether it's a masterpiece or junk, whatever it is, whatever you think of it, your opinion, I'm going to keep making it because I can afford to do it, put these musicians to work, give them an opportunity,

and the thing that I'm most proud of, I am building a business model or a guy with a guitar, a woman with a fiddle, maybe they get to know my buddy's got a drum, they can go on YouTube, whatever, they can present what they've got,

can have their own label, sign up to BMI or ASCAP, and they can, you know, tour around, playing some bars, and they can make just enough money to make an album. The most extraordinary thing that's happened so far to me today is the fact that you would bring up Eleanor Rigby. I had a long conversation two days ago with a buddy of mine about the greatest Beatles song ever written.

He gave me his, I gave him mine. We were really just kind of working on the rush more of the question. Mine's Eleanor Rigby. and I think it's because of what we were just talking about, the magic, like the magic of that song is actually George Martin going, what if we just use strings, right? Like, what if it's a quartet? The lyrics, it's among the greatest pieces of poetry that I've ever encountered.

I can't get through it. If I had to read it, I couldn't get through it. I couldn't either. I would quote it, but. copyright. I hate getting sued. But the other thing is, people would kill to write a melody like that. But the song has two. Two melodies.

Two perfect melodies, right? And then, look at all the lonely people. And then just for grins. Let's sing them together at the same time. It's unbelievable. And they fit like magic. And then let's put it in the string quartet. And then tell me about Rigby's Meets and Eleanor Lane.

It's unbelievable. That's impossible. Except. But you know what's so interesting? Good musicians want some water. I know some people. I have people. You want my water?

I'm not sick. No, neither mind. Well, the good news is, you know, like, Shooter Jennings is an extraordinary musician and Bob is an extraordinary musician now you notice when I say we produce together you go oh yeah you're produced together you're a big thing

well of course Shooter does most of the music stuff and I do a lot of the promotion all of it put that together but in the studio I'll have ideas and I'll say to you do you mind if I said to you

He said, you always say, do I mind. He said, every single idea you've ever had I've ended up using. I very rarely say something, but there's a moment here where twice in two songs I make a reference to diamonds falling from the sky. And I always like to have a little tributes, and of course it's Lucy in the sky with diamonds, but it's not really that. It's that there are two moments in this opera, and this name came up. Somebody said, what are we going to call this album? Out of nowhere, I said, Tombstone Opera. Not about Tombstone, Arizona, and it's not an opera.

But it's an opera in the sense that it has a big, large reach, a true three-act structure, and yet while there is a small and simple story, there is an overlay, an ethereal overlay. Is our lead character alive or dead? Does she die in the fire or not? And there was a song I wrote Beyond the Door, which was, again, like the road back, where, you know, I said to Bob and Shooter, we need a big song, we need a big crescendo where they're burning the place to the ground and so on. Of course, there's fire imagery all through this.

And I realized, oh, my God, yeah, they burned our neighborhood down. And I wonder why I'm writing an opera about a guy who finds a good woman. And I started to write a whole backstory. I mean, honestly, this thing could be a Broadway musical, I think. I mean, in a sense. But you have these, when you talk about Eleanor Rigby, I said to Shooter, I want to peg the diamonds in two songs. It's in Time for the Gun, and it's in Beyond the Door.

door. Time for the gun is the one where it hits your brain like a diamond bullet? No, no, that's in Roadback. Okay. Okay. But both times I mentioned diamonds falling from the sky. And I said to Shooter, I said, could you get on the piano? I mean, here I'm telling the shooter again.

And I'm at the board. They say, yeah, yeah, go ahead. And I said, I want to hear the ting-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-lond. And he gets on the piano, which is the piano the prince wrote and performed and recorded Purple Rainon. Good grief. Okay, in Studio 3 at Sunset Sound. And he did it all. And what it really is, of course,

and I never mentioned in the song, but I'm now telling you, it's the Piede's Meteor shower because that pegs a moment when they see this, you know, there's one line where, you know, music changes into this big, powerful orchestral moment, you know, in the distance of vision, you know, the sky's on fire,

diamonds are falling from the sky, Huffby's thunder across the plane, all this stuff. And then he reaches for her beyond the door, beyond the veil. So is she alive or dead? And then there's a song after called Nowhere Hill where he's literally in Nowhere Town, Nowhere Hill, standing in her grave and sings a song to her memory

and feels a breeze and is it her breath on his or is it a breeze from the sea? It's just, I mean, I love this album. I just love it. It's the proudest thing I've ever done artistically in my life. How important is it to have pain, I suppose. I mean, you told the story of hello friend, and I am going to play that from start to finish when we're done. What happened your brother? So my brother went to a hospital, and I have to be careful because there was a huge

lawsuit that, of course, we won. And I'm proud to say that part of the settlement from the hospital and from Karen in Wengland, was to rebuild the emergency room at this hospital, so things were done right. And the new president of the hospital continued it beyond what we asked for at the hospital. At any rate, he went in with symptoms of a heart attack that are not familiar to people. He felt like he had a pain in his jaw. But at one point, there was an electrocardogram that was not. read because the person was texting with her boyfriend and it ended up costing him his life

when'd you lose him um July 26th 741 p.m. Eastern time 2006 2006 and to this day Jim huh I mean to this day that obviously let me tell you something you when somebody dies I remember when my brother died and someone said, oh, I lost my brother a few years ago. I said, well, you know, it's like, oh, it must be easier for you now. And they said, I have bad news for you. And here's the bad news.

You never get over it. It's the same today as the second I heard it. You see in here? I have a song of his that I haven't. Shooter loves it. It's not perfect yet for me. So I'm waiting. there's a in this album there's he's not in this album he's going to be in an album for sure my father's in an

album and a song called wallum lake and my mother's my mother oh you listen to wallum lake i've listened to wallum lake i don't mean literally i know wallum lake is about your dad yeah maybe the question is he is he in all your albums? Is he in all your songs? He's sitting with me every moment of my day. Every moment of my day. I loved him so much. You have to understand. My brother was born nine and a half years after I was. My mom lost a child, a free birth and a miscarriage when we were on Guam. And our dad died when I was 12. from a transfusion reaction. Went through two wars,

had two purple hearts, and they gave him the wrong blood. Anyway, my brother, you know, was two and a half years old and just didn't understand where his father went. And there's actually the song, I wrote a song called Widow's Wrath

for the next album, and one of the lines is, where has Daddy gone? The children say, where has Daddy gone? The widow looks at the ceiling. that she faces the stairs at the ceiling, she faces the dawn.

Anyway, I used to carry him out. I used to deliver newspapers, and I would carry him in my bag with the newspapers. A little face looking out. So he was, you know, of course my brother, but he was almost like a, I was like a surrogate dad

because his dad was gone and I was older and so on. And he loved music. You know, there's gifts you like to give to someone. My brother loved the Rolling Stones. There's an inscription on his gravestone. I thought I heard an angel cry. I thought I saw a tear drop falling from his eye, which is from Rolling Stones home. He loved the Rolling Stones. And when I was a movie star, yeah, one of the great perks is you get tickets to the concerts. So we get a ticket, you know, to one of the concerts in New York. And I happened

to know that the stones were staying at, I think it was the Ritz Carlton, whichever that was, on Central Park South. And so there's a mob of people there because word had gotten out afterwards. But, you know, the guys let us in because I'm me, and, you know, I'm fabulous. He used to call me, you know, my brother, the fabulous Mr. Shobis, you know, he was making fun. He was so great. So funny. And so we get in, and everybody's there, and it's all jammed, and this blonde woman goes by, she goes, oh, my God. God, James Woods, you're my husband's favorite actor. You've got to come say hello.

I said, I'd like to, but my brother goes, Jimmy! And, of course, it was Patty Hansen, Keith's wife, Keith Richards' wife. And I said, I'm just kidding. I said, I'd love to. So we go back, and Keith is there with Ronnie Wood, Keith's dad, Patty, and my brother, you know, my brother has a video store, you know, it's like, so sweet. And he had a music store that he did, Mom and Dad's, Mom and Pop stuff. But he loved music.

He always had just great taste. and so we sit with them all night long. And Mike and Keith just hit it off. So Keith invites Mike to come to their place in Connecticut at the time and have dinner, you know, barbecue. And they become friends. Your brother and Keith Richards are having barbecue. And Kerry, his wife, you know,

and Keith is drawing a thing on the tablecloth, Ronnie Wood by Keith Richards. And he sighed. And he just going around, we pick up that tablecloth. stuff it, and carry the purse, still have it framed in the house. And they put it in their, you know, they had a weekly newsletter, Beggars Banquet, and it was on the cover of, you know, Jimmy Woods and Mike Woods, the coolest guy. So now, a couple years later, the Stones are playing Atlantic City.

So you go there and it's a smaller event, it's like 10,000 people, not a big stadium, it's indoors. And they're doing, you know, honky, tonic woman, all this stuff. It's fantastic. They don't allow anybody backstage before a show. They prepare, they really focus musicians. I mean, they're incredible. We're sitting, you know, waiting. This big security comes up, he goes, Mr. Woods, I go, yes.

He says, Michael Woods? I said, my brother. He said, Mr. Richards would like to invite you backstage. And he said, he goes, fabulous Mr. Show. good. Yeah. Wait for me. I said, Fab is Mr. Music,

busy. He goes, yeah. He said, yes. He said, could you ask Mr. Richards if I could bring my brother? My kid brother. My kid brother. They bring us backstage.

I'm not making this up. We get in this trailer. Ronnie's there. Keith. Mick is, I can't remember if Mick, it was Mick there. Yeah, Mick was there.

But he was kind of just, he gets ready. He's just kind of sitting there. And they said, we're warming up. You know, And they got, they're both sitting there with acoustic guitars because the guitarists have to really warm up, you know. You know, Charlie doesn't have to warm up.

You know, Bill Wyman's, you know, he's very, so it's just the guy. He said, what would you like to? I'm like, what would you like to hear? And now we like are giving like, it's like karaoke night. How about Wild Horse? Yeah, yeah, Howard's good. And they just, and they did like a little five-song concert for us, acoustic in that trailer.

And so when I think of my brother, as much as my heart is broken, I think of those moments. I looked at some pictures of him in a thing that his children have that I kind of now am very close to him, of course. And, you know, there's all the grandchildren that he never got to meet. And I think of all the happy times. And that night, you know, Keith was so great. And Ron, Ronnie, they were just so. great. They're just such great people. And I've always just loved them, man. Because they gave that little gift. And I myself have never refused an autograph. I'm very proud to say. I try to,

you know, I try to be as nice as I can to every fan I meet. Because I know for that person, it's a very important moment in his or her life. Of course. You know? With that in mind, if it's not too much of a bother, just get you. Just write me a quick song. We've got to start to land the plane. but I've got to tell you, man, there's a very weird synchronicity. I'm not one to look to the universe for, you know. Start looking, buddy. Maybe I will because last night, over at the Huntley, I'm falling asleep.

It's about midnight, and I'm flicking around. And Spin Magazine is counting down the hundred greatest rock stars. Okay? Now, I can't turn it off because I come in around number eight. And I'm like, all right, who's number one? I'm watching it. It's going through it. So number two, you mentioned 20 minutes ago.

is Prince. And they do a deep dive on Prince and why? Genius. An absolute genius. And they show him at the piano and they show that incredible concert where he just plays. That was a Super Bowl.

In the rain. No, guitar gently weeps. Oh, that was at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yes. And you know why? Do you know the story behind that? I do. Yeah, because Rolling Stone

didn't have him in the top 100 guitarists. That's right. So he does the single greatest riff. I mean, there's Jimmy Page and, of course, you know, I mean, there are the great ones. But that five minutes of music is some of, I've watched it a thousand times. Me too. By the way, number three. And he throws a guitar into the audience.

And he walks off. Didn't even rehearse with him. No. Didn't even rehearse. Just goes up and just hijacks the whole thing and puts on a clinic at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. One of the great losses. So number three was Jimmy Page. Number one, Keith Richards.

Yeah, people don't realize. The greatest rock star of all time. Thought of doubt. And I mean, it seems so obvious, but it's like all of a sudden, it's like it's not Mick, it's Keith. Yeah. Well, again. Well, Juan, he said something interesting to me.

He said, do you notice tonight that I missed a note at that time? I said, this is another time, I said, at that concert, and I said, what? He goes, I missed a note, and Keith looks over at me. You know, everything's Keith, like Keith. He's this perfectionist, professional. And he said, he went like this. I said, what did that mean? He said, he fined me $10,000 from missing the note.

I love that. It was like, wow, okay, yeah. Yeah. Okay, I got to land the plane. So here's what's going to happen. We're going to play this song. I'm going to say goodbye to you now, and the song it's just going to play. But I got to tell you one other thing.

And I don't think you're going to believe this. Chuck, I haven't told you this. I don't know if you're going to believe it either. But I swear to God, this is true. In a weird day of synchronicity. Taylor, do you remember the hotel in North Carolina? The New Ray. The New Ray.

That's it. I'm in the New Ray Hotel. not three months ago. And Chuck calls me to say, hey, I think James Woods would be great on the podcast. I'm like, of course he would be great. He doesn't do a lot of press. But, you know, he's got this album.

He's done this thing with Shooter. So I'm sitting there with Mary and the new Ray having dinner. And I Google or search, get to Spotify, and I get to the first song on the list. Now, as you know, it's Hello Friend. Yeah. The song we're about to play. Yes.

Here's what you don't know. And here's what I swear to God, I'm not making this out. I get up to go to the can, right? And I got the phone with me, and I'm listening to Hello Friend. And I stop by an old telephone booth. This is a very old hotel. Hotel. And there are very old photos all around.

And on the phone booth is a photo of Thomas Wolfe. Oh, my God. And underneath the... Oh, my God. It's the whole story of how... how you can never go home again happened. And that's the phone that he set it on. Oh, my God.

I'm in the New Ray Hotel three months ago, listening to the song. We're about to play. As I'm contemplating, what kind of fallout is going to happen if I get Jim Woods on this podcast? He's a lunatic, right? What's going to happen? That's me. And that's the song.

So now I'm peeing, listening to this song. And my music does that to people. They have to go, you know. And it just kept going and going and going. Not five feet from where James Wolfe said the very thing that inspired the second. Listen, don't ever correct me on my own show. But you get the idea. Thomas Wolfe, douchebe.

Thomas Wolfe, dudeshbe. And the fact that your brother, God rest his soul, is named Mike. Yeah. I don't know how much weirder it gets, but I'll just leave people with this. The most recent album is called Tombstone Opera. The first one is called Crack of Thunder. I hear the Thunder Crack. Didn't we discuss not correcting me on my own show?

But you were asking for correction. So I'm helping you out. Think of this as me helping you out. I'm not going to follow you to the men's room and hold anything. We'll see. I'm going that far. You've been fascinating. Your music is terrific.

Thank you. Your resume speaks for itself. Thank you. What should people do to get their hands on these things? Oh, good news. If you want vinyl, which I really recommend it. It's so much fun. You go to a website called, it's really easy, James Wood.

Woods.com. Clever. Clever. No space is because there's a guy, poor fella, who has the same name with a space in between and one of the southern states sells cars. But if it's just Jameswoods.com, you go there and you can just order it.

We ship it right out and there it is. Or you go on your favorite streaming service and buy it. And if you do, that puts us up on the charts and I can afford, aside from my little day job that I used to have. And the Apple thing that I have, of course, I can afford to do another album. James Woods is going to be okay. It's true.

He took it in the neck for speaking his mind 13, 14 years ago. But in the end, I certainly wouldn't bet against the idea that a lot of what you've done is going to be looked back at as a masterpiece. Oh, thank you. I mean it. I really. I mean it. You're a American original.

You're a jagged little pill. You broke a few eggs. But hey, who doesn't love it? Thank you, Mike. That really means a lot. Please come back sometime. And I want to say one thing that's really important. I know you've got to go.

This thing that you do about making sure that those people, you know, when I was in school, we used to have, you know, there were the collegias who were going to go on and study, you know, lesbian interpretive dance in some liberal arts college. And then there were the guys in shop who were actually going to make a living and be able to put food on the table for their wife and their kids, fixing cars and building buildings and doing all that stuff. And I'm telling you, in the long run,

they're going to be the ones who win because we're seeing it now. It's all crumbling forever. Like, hey, yeah, I can, you know, I'm a basket weaving genius and, you know, I've got $400,000 in debt. No thanks. It's a hell of a thing when the headlines catch up to your own smack. So thank you very much. And you're welcome back here truly any time.

I'll see you next Tuesday. We'll be back. Tuesday, Chuck. Perfect. I got it. Sarah. You should have run on. You know, maybe I will.

Yeah. All right. Well, there's no ancient Sarah, Chuck. Make a note. Mike, I can't thank you. Sure you can. You already have. Really, thank you. James Woods, everybody.

Thank you. See next time. Thank you. mind and I don't know does it end with a bang there is the answer with the sting of a fang Serpent's kiss so quiet and shrewd with a hiss and a faint but you just can't allude to say it isn't ordained it ain't no twist to fade you can run you can dodge but you'll never skate to the left and in the shadows of evening's twilight now turn in we all know so well it's heaven or heaven and then you just we dance on this bait we find

and exit we must